IRC log of css on 2013-01-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:50:27 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #css
16:50:27 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:50:34 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
16:50:34 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
16:50:41 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:51:19 [rbetts]
rbetts has joined #css
16:51:50 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:51:56 [Zakim]
16:52:09 [darktears]
Zakim: ??P43 is me
16:52:15 [darktears]
Zakim ??P43 is me
16:52:56 [darktears]
Zakim, ??P43 is me
16:52:56 [Zakim]
+darktears; got it
16:53:04 [Zakim]
+ +97362aaaa
16:53:34 [antonp]
Zakim, aaaa is me
16:53:34 [Zakim]
+antonp; got it
16:54:31 [Zakim]
16:54:37 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P50 is me
16:54:37 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:54:47 [rhauck]
rhauck has joined #css
16:54:56 [glenn]
glenn has joined #css
16:56:15 [glazou]
Regrets: plinss, danielweck, lea, leif
16:57:52 [smfr]
smfr has joined #css
16:58:25 [Zakim]
16:59:34 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.636.aabb
16:59:43 [smfr]
Zakim, aabb is me
16:59:44 [Zakim]
+smfr; got it
16:59:44 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aacc
16:59:47 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.308.aadd
17:00:00 [rhauck]
Zakim, aacc is me
17:00:00 [Zakim]
+rhauck; got it
17:00:09 [tantek]
tantek has joined #css
17:00:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.619.846.aaee
17:00:18 [_sylvaing]
_sylvaing has joined #css
17:00:20 [glazou]
Zakim, aadd is krit
17:00:20 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
17:00:45 [glazou]
Zakim, who is on the phone ?
17:00:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see darktears, antonp, glazou, ??P58, smfr, rhauck, krit, +1.619.846.aaee
17:00:54 [SimonSapin1]
SimonSapin1 has joined #css
17:01:00 [Zakim]
17:01:12 [_sylvaing]
Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
17:01:12 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
17:01:45 [Zakim]
17:01:52 [Zakim]
+ +
17:02:01 [glazou]
Zakim, aaff is SimonSapin1
17:02:03 [Zakim]
+SimonSapin1; got it
17:03:13 [florian]
florian has joined #css
17:03:17 [Zakim]
17:03:18 [oyvind]
oyvind has joined #css
17:03:54 [glenn]
zakim, who's here?
17:03:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see darktears, antonp, glazou, ??P58, smfr, rhauck, krit, +1.619.846.aaee, [Microsoft], fantasai, SimonSapin1, [IPcaller]
17:03:54 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has sylvaing
17:03:55 [Zakim]
On IRC I see oyvind, florian, SimonSapin, _sylvaing, tantek, smfr, glenn, rhauck, rbetts, RRSAgent, Zakim, lmclister, dbaron, glazou, paul___irish, antonp, trackbot, koji, sawrubh,
17:03:55 [Zakim]
... darktears, Ms2ger, gsnedders, logbot, ed, fantasai, stearns, slightlyoff_
17:03:59 [glazou]
Zakim, [IPcaller] has glenn
17:03:59 [Zakim]
+glenn; got it
17:04:24 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.527.aagg
17:04:32 [florian]
Zakim is telling me the passcode is not valid...
17:04:34 [stearns]
zakim, aagg is me
17:04:34 [Zakim]
+stearns; got it
17:04:42 [glazou]
florian: happens from time to time, retry
17:04:44 [glazou]
17:04:55 [Zakim]
17:05:06 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft has me
17:05:06 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
17:05:45 [JohnJansen]
JohnJansen has joined #CSS
17:05:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.766.aahh
17:06:09 [Zakim]
17:06:11 [SimonSapin]
Zakim: SimonSapin1 is me
17:06:21 [_sylvaing]
scribenick: sylvaing
17:06:32 [florian]
Zakim, IPCaller.a has me
17:06:32 [Zakim]
+florian; got it
17:06:38 [dbaron]
Zakim, aahh is dbaron
17:06:38 [Zakim]
+dbaron; got it
17:06:49 [_sylvaing]
glazou: extra agenda items?
17:06:56 [SimonSapin]
Zakim: aaff is me
17:07:06 [glazou]
17:07:07 [_sylvaing]
topic: publish a new draft of css3-transitions
17:07:09 [Zakim]
17:07:17 [JohnJansen]
Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
17:07:17 [Zakim]
+JohnJansen; got it
17:07:21 [_sylvaing]
glazou: I have no objections. Others?
17:07:31 [Zakim]
17:07:37 [_sylvaing]
dbaron: sounds fine. Should we update css3-animations as well?
17:07:59 [_sylvaing]
sylvaing: no objections; many updates since the last time.
17:08:03 [smfr]
smfr has changed the topic to:
17:08:07 [darktears]
I support the publication. One major change (except the cleanups) is that transition-duration with a negative value is invalid in the editor draft but on the TR it is considered that a negative value is 0s
17:08:09 [Zakim]
17:08:46 [_sylvaing]
RESOLVED: publish new WDs of css3-transitions and css3-animations
17:08:57 [glazou]
17:09:01 [_sylvaing]
Topic: escaping of url()
17:09:21 [dino]
dino has joined #css
17:09:48 [_sylvaing]
dbaron: it just seems odd that of all the functions in CSS you can't escape u, r and l in url()
17:10:05 [_sylvaing]
dbaron: it seems we added a test to support its escaping but never updated the spec
17:10:14 [_sylvaing]
dbaron: I'd support making the errata edit in 2.1
17:10:29 [_sylvaing]
antonp: this has a long history and we agreed a long time ago to make this change
17:10:40 [_sylvaing]
antonp: for some reason this change was backed out.
17:10:51 [_sylvaing]
florian: did we think the change caused issues?
17:10:52 [rbetts]
dino: don't know about you but Zakim is hanging up on me every time I get to the passcode menu.
17:10:52 [glazou]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:10:52 [Zakim]
On the phone I see darktears, antonp, glazou, ??P58, smfr, rhauck, krit, +1.619.846.aaee, [Microsoft], fantasai, SimonSapin1, [IPcaller], stearns, [Microsoft.a], dbaron,
17:10:55 [Zakim]
... [IPcaller.a], [Microsoft.aa]
17:10:55 [Zakim]
[IPcaller] has glenn
17:10:55 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has JohnJansen
17:10:55 [Zakim]
[IPcaller.a] has florian
17:11:08 [cabanier]
cabanier has joined #css
17:11:09 [_sylvaing]
antonp: no, it was edited in one place but not the other i.e. Appending G and section 4.4.
17:11:10 [antonp]
17:11:21 [_sylvaing]
(history in bug above)
17:11:24 [glazou]
rbetts, dino: zakim hickups :-( retry
17:11:30 [_sylvaing]
antonp: this seems just a mistake
17:11:39 [_sylvaing]
antonp: it just needs to be re-edited in both places
17:11:44 [rbetts]
glazou: will do.
17:12:28 [_sylvaing]
glenn: I was wondering why it was backed out
17:12:44 [_sylvaing]
dbaron: it sounds like it was backed out because we had two sections that were inconsistent with each other
17:13:09 [_sylvaing]
glenn: I was wondering if there was a reason it was backed out vs. just an editorial inconsistency that fell through
17:13:25 [_sylvaing]
florian: from UA behavior I see no reason not to do it
17:13:33 [SimonSapin]
+1 on doing the edit
17:14:07 [_sylvaing]
RESOLVED: the url() function can be escaped - CSS2.1 errata
17:14:16 [_sylvaing]
RESOLVED: the url() function can be escaped - css3-syntax
17:14:59 [_sylvaing]
topic: flexbox issues
17:15:12 [glazou]
17:15:43 [glazou]
Zakim, who is noisy?
17:15:54 [Zakim]
glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: darktears (15%), [Microsoft] (5%)
17:16:21 [glazou]
17:16:23 [_sylvaing]
no quorum, deferring topic
17:16:41 [_sylvaing]
topic: background-clip/origin order in the background shorthand
17:17:00 [glazou]
Topic: background-clip and origin order on background shorthand
17:17:02 [_sylvaing]
Firefox follows the spec and assumes the order specified in the spec
17:17:11 [glazou]
Topic: background-clip and origin order in bg shorthand
17:17:24 [_sylvaing]
krit: should we settle on the interoperable behavior?
17:17:29 [glazou]
Topic: background-clip and origin order
17:17:40 [_sylvaing]
dbaron: it seems that separating those values is detrimental to readability
17:17:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.766.aaii
17:17:56 [Zakim]
+ +1.800.331.aajj
17:18:10 [Zakim]
- +1.800.331.aajj
17:18:30 [Zakim]
+ +1.604.312.aakk
17:18:40 [_sylvaing]
dbaron: if it works to write them separately then there can be arbitrary other stuff in between
17:18:47 [rbetts]
Zakim, aakk is me
17:18:47 [Zakim]
+rbetts; got it
17:18:59 [glazou]
thanks darktears
17:19:01 [Zakim]
17:19:03 [Zakim]
17:19:35 [_sylvaing]
krit does not agree readability is a priority
17:20:48 [_sylvaing]
glazou: some people find readability very important
17:21:05 [_sylvaing]
krit: I don't disagree. I just don't think this particular issue really affects readability that much
17:21:35 [_sylvaing]
fantasai: if the two values were independently processed I wouldn't mind their separation. But instead if one is missing then the other is the same then it makes sense to keep them together
17:22:28 [fantasai]
s/same/copied fromit/
17:22:49 [smfr]
Zakim, who's noisy?
17:22:50 [glazou]
Zakim, who is noisy?
17:22:50 [_sylvaing]
sylvaing: not much incentive for the flexbible parser implementations to do anything. it sounds like we prefer to leave the spec alone and do nothing?
17:23:01 [Zakim]
smfr, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: krit (4%), glazou (27%)
17:23:14 [Zakim]
glazou, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: krit (26%), glazou (44%)
17:23:37 [_sylvaing]
krit: would the flexible browsers fix their code?
17:24:29 [_sylvaing]
sylvaing: it will be fixed, just not a very high priority
17:24:50 [Zakim]
17:25:04 [_sylvaing]
dbaron: it sounds like we'd have compat problems if we don't follow so change the spec
17:25:22 [dbaron]
krit said a bit about WebKit probably not changing before my line
17:25:34 [BradK]
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17:25:36 [_sylvaing]
ted: I'd be fine with the spec matching webkit in this case...
17:26:20 [BradK]
I'm here finally, but I'm in a noisy place, so my phone is muted.
17:26:35 [_sylvaing]
sylvaing: same here
17:26:41 [hober]
hober has joined #css
17:27:14 [Zakim]
17:27:35 [koji]
zakim, [] is me
17:27:35 [Zakim]
+koji; got it
17:27:36 [Rossen]
Rossen has joined #css
17:28:17 [Zakim]
17:28:20 [Zakim]
17:28:36 [Zakim]
17:28:36 [Rossen]
Zakim, Microsoft has me
17:28:38 [Zakim]
+Rossen; got it
17:28:40 [_sylvaing]
bradk: I don't have an issue with keeping them separate. if authors think they're more readable together they can still write them together
17:28:51 [_sylvaing]
s/keeping them/allowing them to be
17:29:10 [_sylvaing]
RESOLVED: allow background-clip and background-origin to be specified separately in the background shorthand
17:29:12 [glazou]
17:29:19 [_sylvaing]
topic: currentColor
17:29:54 [Zakim]
17:29:56 [_sylvaing]
dbaron: we have an errate to css3-color to make currentColor a computed value rather than that something that computes to a color as part of value computation
17:30:26 [_sylvaing]
dbaron: for the color property though, currentColor must match inherit i.e. it must compute to a color
17:30:45 [Zakim]
17:30:48 [BradK_]
BradK_ has joined #CSS
17:31:08 [fantasai]
There was also a proposal on the mailing list ot just not allow currentColor as a value of the 'color' property
17:31:47 [_sylvaing]
dbaron: I think it might be too late for that
17:32:24 [_sylvaing]
glazou: if it is then the change proposed by david makes sense
17:33:06 [_sylvaing]
sylvaing: what's the impact of this change?
17:33:11 [SimonSapin]
dbaron’s proposal makes sense, IMO
17:33:20 [_sylvaing]
dbaron: I think it's too late to not allow currentColor in color
17:33:32 [_sylvaing]
dbaron: I propose undoing the change we agreed for color: currentColor
17:33:43 [_sylvaing]
glazou: it's mostly a clarification for a case we never considered
17:34:50 [_sylvaing]
RESOLVED: currentColor still computes to a color when used as a color property value
17:35:12 [_sylvaing]
topic: case-sensitivity
17:36:35 [_sylvaing]
fantasai: the key question is: can an author working in a language that isn't ASCII-only pretend that CSS is case-insensitive and use the same case for his identifiers all over - CSS, JS... - and have that work?
17:37:22 [_sylvaing]
fantasai: if we normalize things somewhere for matching that requires them to know about case transformation then I think this is problematic
17:38:01 [_sylvaing]
fantasai: we don't want authors to have to know that these identifiers over here are matched this way but those others aren't
17:38:19 [_sylvaing]
florian: does this issue actually show up?
17:38:23 [fantasai]
Don't want authors to have to know that these letters in my ident will be lowercased, but others won't
17:38:52 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: did you say pretend that CSS is case-sensitive or insensitive?
17:39:16 [fantasai]
17:39:27 [dbaron]
17:39:36 [_sylvaing]
correction to key question above: s/case-insensitive/case-sensitive
17:40:20 [_sylvaing]
sylvaing: what do we need to answer the question?
17:40:50 [_sylvaing]
fantasai: for static stylesheets, we know things work. the issue is around integration with JS APIs
17:42:41 [_sylvaing]
florian: we want to figure out whether all DOM APIs who handle these identifiers do it in such a way that ASCII case-sensitive is OK
17:43:08 [_sylvaing]
glazou: it also depends on the language; casing transforms won't mess up French but once you have Vietnamese and its complex diacritics it could be problematic
17:44:54 [_sylvaing]
fantasai: say I use my own counter style in CSS using mixed cased. When I check the property value through JS, do I need to know about CSS casing to get a match?
17:45:14 [_sylvaing]
florian: you would not have to know if we provide a DOM API to do this matching
17:47:30 [_sylvaing]
glazou: we need to review richard's tests to make sure they are correct
17:49:46 [fantasai]
fantasai: I just want an answer to my question. Are there any JS apis that will case-normalize CSS keyword values in their output?
17:50:45 [dbaron]
the answer is yes
17:51:32 [dino]
I'm here
17:51:45 [Zakim]
17:51:58 [dbaron]
dino, did you send email describing what WebKit does re animations/transitions and cascading?
17:52:04 [_sylvaing]
17:52:08 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
17:52:19 [dino]
dbaron, no :( it's been on my list for a while. I will do it this week.
17:52:27 [fantasai]
sylvaing: dbaron wanted clarification of prose wrt [...] animation shorthand
17:52:29 [Zakim]
17:52:31 [fantasai]
dbaron: currently ambiguous
17:52:36 [fantasai]
17:53:01 [hober]
Zakim, who is making noise?
17:53:12 [Zakim]
hober, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (66%)
17:53:23 [fantasai]
sylvaing: some prose in animations wrt what it means for multiple animations in the shorthand animating same property -- in such case, last one wins
17:53:35 [fantasai]
sylvaing: dbaron asked what happens if you have same animation name repeated in the shorthand
17:53:45 [fantasai]
sylvaing: in that case, think we want the last animation name to win
17:53:54 [fantasai]
sylvaing: if you animate foo for 1s, foo for 2s, 2s wins
17:53:56 [Zakim]
17:54:18 [florian]
if the answer to fantasai is yes, or "not currently, but they may appear", then we probably want full case-insensitivity, otherwise authors need to know the case normalization rules to use these APIs, and that's not something we should impose on authors.
17:54:31 [fantasai]
sylvaing: proposal is to run the last one
17:54:45 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: If animation name repeated in shorthand, last one wins
17:54:58 [_sylvaing]
17:55:10 [dbaron]
s/ in shorthand//, really
17:55:18 [fantasai]
sylvaing: This is about allowing keyframe selectors to use time units, not just percentages
17:55:23 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Think that's clearly postponed to next level
17:55:27 [fantasai]
glazou: totally agree
17:56:03 [SimonSapin]
next level for sure vs. not in this level
17:56:09 [smfr]
17:56:09 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Not adding time units selectors for this level
17:56:20 [fantasai]
glazou^: Not sure I want it in next leve either
17:56:33 [_sylvaing]
17:56:50 [glazou]
17:57:07 [fantasai]
sylvaing: In December, telecon on 19th we agreed that an empty keyframe rule, either no rule, or rule results in nothing, does not run. Specifically, does not fire start/end events.
17:57:36 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Since then some on mailing list think, should it really be about whether has interpolable properties, or should be wrt whether it has a duration?
17:57:44 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Have an animation that starts, ends, does nothing
17:57:57 [fantasai]
sylvaing: In the future, if you're using a tool or whatever, might want to have empty animations.
17:58:03 [fantasai]
glazou: I agree with that change
17:58:12 [fantasai]
sylvaing: So empty keyframe with positive duration should run?
17:58:17 [fantasai]
glazou: Yes, should trigger animation.
17:58:25 [fantasai]
sylvaing: I'm ok with that, but change from what we resolved next time.
17:58:33 [fantasai]
fantasai: sounds reasonable to me
17:58:34 [dbaron]
I'm fine with that.
17:58:51 [SimonSapin]
s/resolved next time/resolved last time/
17:59:00 [fantasai]
dino: [...? ...]
17:59:14 [dino]
dino: I'm ok with either way on this
17:59:17 [Zakim]
17:59:33 [fantasai]
dbaron: Basically saying animations always fire events as long as they have positive duration
17:59:43 [fantasai]
dino: As long as keyframes rule is valid, exists
17:59:53 [fantasai]
sylvaing: I'm happy with this, makes more sense to devs
18:00:13 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Empty keyframes with positive duration still "animate" and fire events
18:00:21 [fantasai]
glazou: Reminder to book your hotel in Tucson
18:00:26 [Zakim]
18:00:27 [Zakim]
18:00:27 [Zakim]
18:00:28 [Zakim]
- +1.619.846.aaee
18:00:29 [Zakim]
18:00:30 [Zakim]
18:00:30 [Zakim]
18:00:30 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
18:00:31 [Zakim]
18:00:31 [Zakim]
18:00:32 [Zakim]
18:00:32 [Zakim]
18:00:32 [Zakim]
18:00:33 [Zakim]
- +1.650.766.aaii
18:00:33 [Zakim]
18:00:35 [Zakim]
18:00:35 [Zakim]
18:00:36 [Zakim]
18:00:38 [Zakim]
18:00:38 [Zakim]
18:01:38 [SimonSapin]
SimonSapin has joined #css
18:02:47 [Zakim]
18:02:49 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:02:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were darktears, +97362aaaa, antonp, glazou, +1.408.636.aabb, smfr, +1.415.832.aacc, +1.415.308.aadd, rhauck, +1.619.846.aaee, krit, sylvaing, fantasai, +,
18:02:50 [Zakim]
... SimonSapin1, glenn, +1.206.527.aagg, stearns, [Microsoft], arronei, +1.415.766.aahh, [IPcaller], florian, dbaron, JohnJansen, +1.650.766.aaii, +1.800.331.aajj, +1.604.312.aakk,
18:02:50 [Zakim]
... rbetts, koji, Rossen
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