16:50:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
16:50:27 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-css-irc
16:50:34 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
16:50:34 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
16:50:41 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:51:19 <rbetts> rbetts has joined #css
16:51:50 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:51:56 <Zakim> +??P43
16:52:09 <darktears> Zakim: ??P43 is me
16:52:15 <darktears> Zakim ??P43 is me
16:52:56 <darktears> Zakim, ??P43 is me
16:52:56 <Zakim> +darktears; got it
16:53:04 <Zakim> + +97362aaaa
16:53:34 <antonp> Zakim, aaaa is me
16:53:34 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
16:54:31 <Zakim> +??P50
16:54:37 <glazou> Zakim, ??P50 is me
16:54:37 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
16:54:47 <rhauck> rhauck has joined #css
16:54:56 <glenn> glenn has joined #css
16:56:15 <glazou> Regrets: plinss, danielweck, lea, leif
16:57:52 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
16:58:25 <Zakim> +??P58
16:59:34 <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aabb
16:59:43 <smfr> Zakim, aabb is me
16:59:44 <Zakim> +smfr; got it
16:59:44 <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aacc
16:59:47 <Zakim> + +1.415.308.aadd
17:00:00 <rhauck> Zakim, aacc is me
17:00:00 <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
17:00:09 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
17:00:14 <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aaee
17:00:18 <_sylvaing> _sylvaing has joined #css
17:00:20 <glazou> Zakim, aadd is krit
17:00:20 <Zakim> +krit; got it
17:00:45 <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone ?
17:00:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see darktears, antonp, glazou, ??P58, smfr, rhauck, krit, +1.619.846.aaee
17:00:54 <SimonSapin1> SimonSapin1 has joined #css
17:01:00 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:01:12 <_sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
17:01:12 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
17:01:45 <Zakim> +fantasai
17:01:52 <Zakim> + +33.9.52.34.aaff
17:02:01 <glazou> Zakim, aaff is SimonSapin1
17:02:03 <Zakim> +SimonSapin1; got it
17:03:13 <florian> florian has joined #css
17:03:17 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:03:18 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
17:03:54 <glenn> zakim, who's here?
17:03:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see darktears, antonp, glazou, ??P58, smfr, rhauck, krit, +1.619.846.aaee, [Microsoft], fantasai, SimonSapin1, [IPcaller]
17:03:54 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing
17:03:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see oyvind, florian, SimonSapin, _sylvaing, tantek, smfr, glenn, rhauck, rbetts, RRSAgent, Zakim, lmclister, dbaron, glazou, paul___irish, antonp, trackbot, koji, sawrubh,
17:03:55 <Zakim> ... darktears, Ms2ger, gsnedders, logbot, ed, fantasai, stearns, slightlyoff_
17:03:59 <glazou> Zakim, [IPcaller] has glenn
17:03:59 <Zakim> +glenn; got it
17:04:24 <Zakim> + +1.206.527.aagg
17:04:32 <florian> Zakim is telling me the passcode is not valid...
17:04:34 <stearns> zakim, aagg is me
17:04:34 <Zakim> +stearns; got it
17:04:42 <glazou> florian: happens from time to time, retry
17:04:44 <glazou> 78953
17:04:55 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
17:05:06 <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
17:05:06 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
17:05:45 <JohnJansen> JohnJansen has joined #CSS
17:05:49 <Zakim> + +1.415.766.aahh
17:06:09 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
17:06:11 <SimonSapin> Zakim: SimonSapin1 is me
17:06:21 <_sylvaing> scribenick: sylvaing
17:06:32 <florian> Zakim, IPCaller.a has me
17:06:32 <Zakim> +florian; got it
17:06:38 <dbaron> Zakim, aahh is dbaron
17:06:38 <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
17:06:49 <_sylvaing> glazou: extra agenda items?
17:06:56 <SimonSapin> Zakim: aaff is me
17:07:06 <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JanMar/0015.html
17:07:07 <_sylvaing> topic: publish a new draft of css3-transitions
17:07:09 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
17:07:17 <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
17:07:17 <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
17:07:21 <_sylvaing> glazou: I have no objections. Others?
17:07:31 <Zakim> +??P85
17:07:37 <_sylvaing> dbaron: sounds fine. Should we update css3-animations as well?
17:07:59 <_sylvaing> sylvaing: no objections; many updates since the last time.
17:08:03 <smfr> smfr has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jan/0072.html
17:08:07 <darktears> I support the publication. One major change (except the cleanups) is that transition-duration with a negative value is invalid in the editor draft but on the TR it is considered that a negative value is 0s
17:08:09 <Zakim> -??P85
17:08:46 <_sylvaing> RESOLVED: publish new WDs of css3-transitions and css3-animations
17:08:57 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012May/0329.html
17:09:01 <_sylvaing> Topic: escaping of url()
17:09:21 <dino> dino has joined #css
17:09:48 <_sylvaing> dbaron: it just seems odd that of all the functions in CSS you can't escape u, r and l in url()
17:10:05 <_sylvaing> dbaron: it seems we added a test to support its escaping but never updated the spec
17:10:14 <_sylvaing> dbaron: I'd support making the errata edit in 2.1
17:10:29 <_sylvaing> antonp: this has a long history and we agreed a long time ago to make this change
17:10:40 <_sylvaing> antonp: for some reason this change was backed out.
17:10:51 <_sylvaing> florian: did we think the change caused issues?
17:10:52 <rbetts> dino: don't know about you but Zakim is hanging up on me every time I get to the passcode menu.
17:10:52 <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:10:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see darktears, antonp, glazou, ??P58, smfr, rhauck, krit, +1.619.846.aaee, [Microsoft], fantasai, SimonSapin1, [IPcaller], stearns, [Microsoft.a], dbaron,
17:10:55 <Zakim> ... [IPcaller.a], [Microsoft.aa]
17:10:55 <Zakim> [IPcaller] has glenn
17:10:55 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
17:10:55 <Zakim> [IPcaller.a] has florian
17:11:08 <cabanier> cabanier has joined #css
17:11:09 <_sylvaing> antonp: no, it was edited in one place but not the other i.e. Appending G and section 4.4.
17:11:10 <antonp> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17514
17:11:21 <_sylvaing> (history in bug above)
17:11:24 <glazou> rbetts, dino: zakim hickups :-( retry
17:11:30 <_sylvaing> antonp: this seems just a mistake
17:11:39 <_sylvaing> antonp: it just needs to be re-edited in both places
17:11:44 <rbetts> glazou: will do.
17:12:28 <_sylvaing> glenn: I was wondering why it was backed out
17:12:44 <_sylvaing> dbaron: it sounds like it was backed out because we had two sections that were inconsistent with each other
17:13:09 <_sylvaing> glenn: I was wondering if there was a reason it was backed out vs. just an editorial inconsistency that fell through
17:13:25 <_sylvaing> florian: from UA behavior I see no reason not to do it
17:13:33 <SimonSapin> +1 on doing the edit
17:14:07 <_sylvaing> RESOLVED: the url() function can be escaped - CSS2.1 errata
17:14:16 <_sylvaing> RESOLVED: the url() function can be escaped - css3-syntax
17:14:59 <_sylvaing> topic: flexbox issues
17:15:12 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0781.html
17:15:43 <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
17:15:54 <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: darktears (15%), [Microsoft] (5%)
17:16:21 <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012OctDec/0265.html
17:16:23 <_sylvaing> no quorum, deferring topic
17:16:41 <_sylvaing> topic: background-clip/origin order in the background shorthand
17:17:00 <glazou> Topic: background-clip and origin order on background shorthand
17:17:02 <_sylvaing> Firefox follows the spec and assumes the order specified in the spec
17:17:11 <glazou> Topic: background-clip and origin order in bg shorthand
17:17:24 <_sylvaing> krit: should we settle on the interoperable behavior?
17:17:29 <glazou> Topic: background-clip and origin order
17:17:40 <_sylvaing> dbaron: it seems that separating those values is detrimental to readability
17:17:49 <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aaii
17:17:56 <Zakim> + +1.800.331.aajj
17:18:10 <Zakim> - +1.800.331.aajj
17:18:30 <Zakim> + +1.604.312.aakk
17:18:40 <_sylvaing> dbaron: if it works to write them separately then there can be arbitrary other stuff in between
17:18:47 <rbetts> Zakim, aakk is me
17:18:47 <Zakim> +rbetts; got it
17:18:59 <glazou> thanks darktears
17:19:01 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]
17:19:03 <Zakim> +??P18
17:19:35 <_sylvaing> krit does not agree readability is a priority
17:20:48 <_sylvaing> glazou: some people find readability very important
17:21:05 <_sylvaing> krit: I don't disagree. I just don't think this particular issue really affects readability that much
17:21:35 <_sylvaing> fantasai: if the two values were independently processed I wouldn't mind their separation. But instead if one is missing then the other is the same then it makes sense to keep them together
17:22:28 <fantasai> s/same/copied fromit/
17:22:49 <smfr> Zakim, who's noisy?
17:22:50 <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
17:22:50 <_sylvaing> sylvaing: not much incentive for the flexbible parser implementations to do anything. it sounds like we prefer to leave the spec alone and do nothing?
17:23:01 <Zakim> smfr, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: krit (4%), glazou (27%)
17:23:14 <Zakim> glazou, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: krit (26%), glazou (44%)
17:23:37 <_sylvaing> krit: would the flexible browsers fix their code?
17:24:29 <_sylvaing> sylvaing: it will be fixed, just not a very high priority
17:24:50 <Zakim> -antonp
17:25:04 <_sylvaing> dbaron: it sounds like we'd have compat problems if we don't follow so change the spec
17:25:22 <dbaron> krit said a bit about WebKit probably not changing before my line
17:25:34 <BradK> BradK has joined #CSS
17:25:36 <_sylvaing> ted: I'd be fine with the spec matching webkit in this case...
17:26:20 <BradK> I'm here finally, but I'm in a noisy place, so my phone is muted.
17:26:35 <_sylvaing> sylvaing: same here
17:26:41 <hober> hober has joined #css
17:27:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aaa]
17:27:35 <koji> zakim, [ipcaller.aaa] is me
17:27:35 <Zakim> +koji; got it
17:27:36 <Rossen> Rossen has joined #css
17:28:17 <Zakim> -??P18
17:28:20 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aaa]
17:28:36 <Zakim> +antonp
17:28:36 <Rossen> Zakim, Microsoft has me
17:28:38 <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
17:28:40 <_sylvaing> bradk: I don't have an issue with keeping them separate. if authors think they're more readable together they can still write them together
17:28:51 <_sylvaing> s/keeping them/allowing them to be
17:29:10 <_sylvaing> RESOLVED: allow background-clip and background-origin to be specified separately in the background shorthand
17:29:12 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0286.html
17:29:19 <_sylvaing> topic: currentColor
17:29:54 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
17:29:56 <_sylvaing> dbaron: we have an errate to css3-color to make currentColor a computed value rather than that something that computes to a color as part of value computation
17:30:26 <_sylvaing> dbaron: for the color property though, currentColor must match inherit i.e. it must compute to a color
17:30:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
17:30:48 <BradK_> BradK_ has joined #CSS
17:31:08 <fantasai> There was also a proposal on the mailing list ot just not allow currentColor as a value of the 'color' property
17:31:47 <_sylvaing> dbaron: I think it might be too late for that
17:32:24 <_sylvaing> glazou: if it is then the change proposed by david makes sense
17:33:06 <_sylvaing> sylvaing: what's the impact of this change?
17:33:11 <SimonSapin> dbaron’s proposal makes sense, IMO
17:33:20 <_sylvaing> dbaron: I think it's too late to not allow currentColor in color
17:33:32 <_sylvaing> dbaron: I propose undoing the change we agreed for color: currentColor
17:33:43 <_sylvaing> glazou: it's mostly a clarification for a case we never considered
17:34:50 <_sylvaing> RESOLVED: currentColor still computes to a color when used as a color property value
17:35:12 <_sylvaing> topic: case-sensitivity
17:36:35 <_sylvaing> fantasai: the key question is: can an author working in a language that isn't ASCII-only pretend that CSS is case-insensitive and use the same case for his identifiers all over - CSS, JS... - and have that work?
17:37:22 <_sylvaing> fantasai: if we normalize things somewhere for matching that requires them to know about case transformation then I think this is problematic
17:38:01 <_sylvaing> fantasai: we don't want authors to have to know that these identifiers over here are matched this way but those others aren't
17:38:19 <_sylvaing> florian: does this issue actually show up?
17:38:23 <fantasai> Don't want authors to have to know that these letters in my ident will be lowercased, but others won't
17:38:52 <SimonSapin> fantasai: did you say pretend that CSS is case-sensitive or insensitive?
17:39:16 <fantasai> case-sensitive
17:39:27 <dbaron> s/fantasai:/fantasai,/
17:39:36 <_sylvaing> correction to key question above: s/case-insensitive/case-sensitive
17:40:20 <_sylvaing> sylvaing: what do we need to answer the question?
17:40:50 <_sylvaing> fantasai: for static stylesheets, we know things work. the issue is around integration with JS APIs
17:42:41 <_sylvaing> florian: we want to figure out whether all DOM APIs who handle these identifiers do it in such a way that ASCII case-sensitive is OK
17:43:08 <_sylvaing> glazou: it also depends on the language; casing transforms won't mess up French but once you have Vietnamese and its complex diacritics it could be problematic
17:44:54 <_sylvaing> fantasai: say I use my own counter style in CSS using mixed cased. When I check the property value through JS, do I need to know about CSS casing to get a match?
17:45:14 <_sylvaing> florian: you would not have to know if we provide a DOM API to do this matching
17:47:30 <_sylvaing> glazou: we need to review richard's tests to make sure they are correct
17:49:46 <fantasai> fantasai: I just want an answer to my question. Are there any JS apis that will case-normalize CSS keyword values in their output?
17:50:45 <dbaron> the answer is yes
17:51:32 <dino> I'm here
17:51:45 <Zakim> -SimonSapin1
17:51:58 <dbaron> dino, did you send email describing what WebKit does re animations/transitions and cascading?
17:52:04 <_sylvaing> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20609
17:52:08 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
17:52:19 <dino> dbaron, no :( it's been on my list for a while. I will do it this week.
17:52:27 <fantasai> sylvaing: dbaron wanted clarification of prose wrt [...] animation shorthand
17:52:29 <Zakim> +SimonSapin1
17:52:31 <fantasai> dbaron: currently ambiguous
17:52:36 <fantasai> s/dbaron/syl
17:53:01 <hober> Zakim, who is making noise?
17:53:12 <Zakim> hober, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (66%)
17:53:23 <fantasai> sylvaing: some prose in animations wrt what it means for multiple animations in the shorthand animating same property -- in such case, last one wins
17:53:35 <fantasai> sylvaing: dbaron asked what happens if you have same animation name repeated in the shorthand
17:53:45 <fantasai> sylvaing: in that case, think we want the last animation name to win
17:53:54 <fantasai> sylvaing: if you animate foo for 1s, foo for 2s, 2s wins
17:53:56 <Zakim> -stearns
17:54:18 <florian> if the answer to fantasai is yes, or "not currently, but they may appear", then we probably want full case-insensitivity, otherwise authors need to know the case normalization rules to use these APIs, and that's not something we should impose on authors.
17:54:31 <fantasai> sylvaing: proposal is to run the last one
17:54:45 <fantasai> RESOLVED: If animation name repeated in shorthand, last one wins
17:54:58 <_sylvaing> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20461
17:55:10 <dbaron> s/ in shorthand//, really
17:55:18 <fantasai> sylvaing: This is about allowing keyframe selectors to use time units, not just percentages
17:55:23 <fantasai> sylvaing: Think that's clearly postponed to next level
17:55:27 <fantasai> glazou: totally agree
17:56:03 <SimonSapin> next level for sure vs. not in this level
17:56:09 <smfr> agreed
17:56:09 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Not adding time units selectors for this level
17:56:20 <fantasai> glazou^: Not sure I want it in next leve either
17:56:33 <_sylvaing> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15251
17:56:50 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Dec/0144.html
17:57:07 <fantasai> sylvaing: In December, telecon on 19th we agreed that an empty keyframe rule, either no rule, or rule results in nothing, does not run. Specifically, does not fire start/end events.
17:57:36 <fantasai> sylvaing: Since then some on mailing list think, should it really be about whether has interpolable properties, or should be wrt whether it has a duration?
17:57:44 <fantasai> sylvaing: Have an animation that starts, ends, does nothing
17:57:57 <fantasai> sylvaing: In the future, if you're using a tool or whatever, might want to have empty animations.
17:58:03 <fantasai> glazou: I agree with that change
17:58:12 <fantasai> sylvaing: So empty keyframe with positive duration should run?
17:58:17 <fantasai> glazou: Yes, should trigger animation.
17:58:25 <fantasai> sylvaing: I'm ok with that, but change from what we resolved next time.
17:58:33 <fantasai> fantasai: sounds reasonable to me
17:58:34 <dbaron> I'm fine with that.
17:58:51 <SimonSapin> s/resolved next time/resolved last time/
17:59:00 <fantasai> dino: [...? ...]
17:59:14 <dino> dino: I'm ok with either way on this
17:59:17 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:59:33 <fantasai> dbaron: Basically saying animations always fire events as long as they have positive duration
17:59:43 <fantasai> dino: As long as keyframes rule is valid, exists
17:59:53 <fantasai> sylvaing: I'm happy with this, makes more sense to devs
18:00:13 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Empty keyframes with positive duration still "animate" and fire events
18:00:21 <fantasai> glazou: Reminder to book your hotel in Tucson
18:00:26 <Zakim> -rhauck
18:00:27 <Zakim> -darktears
18:00:27 <Zakim> -smfr
18:00:28 <Zakim> - +1.619.846.aaee
18:00:29 <Zakim> -dbaron
18:00:30 <Zakim> -rbetts
18:00:30 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.aa]
18:00:30 <fantasai> Meeting closed.
18:00:31 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aaa]
18:00:31 <Zakim> -glazou
18:00:32 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
18:00:32 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
18:00:32 <Zakim> -antonp
18:00:33 <Zakim> - +1.650.766.aaii
18:00:33 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
18:00:35 <Zakim> -SimonSapin1
18:00:35 <Zakim> -??P58
18:00:36 <Zakim> -fantasai
18:00:38 <Zakim> -koji
18:00:38 <Zakim> -krit
18:01:38 <SimonSapin> SimonSapin has joined #css
18:02:47 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
18:02:49 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:02:49 <Zakim> Attendees were darktears, +97362aaaa, antonp, glazou, +1.408.636.aabb, smfr, +1.415.832.aacc, +1.415.308.aadd, rhauck, +1.619.846.aaee, krit, sylvaing, fantasai, +33.9.52.34.aaff,
18:02:50 <Zakim> ... SimonSapin1, glenn, +1.206.527.aagg, stearns, [Microsoft], arronei, +1.415.766.aahh, [IPcaller], florian, dbaron, JohnJansen, +1.650.766.aaii, +1.800.331.aajj, +1.604.312.aakk,
18:02:50 <Zakim> ... rbetts, koji, Rossen
18:06:47 <florian> florian has left #css
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