IRC log of mlw-lt on 2013-01-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:53:31 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
15:53:42 [fsasaki]
meeting: MLW-LT WG
15:53:45 [fsasaki]
chair: felix
15:55:55 [fsasaki]
15:56:29 [fsasaki]
topic: roll call
16:00:47 [fsasaki]
present+ felix
16:00:54 [kfritsche]
present+ kfritsche
16:01:00 [dF]
present+ dF
16:01:18 [philr]
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16:01:18 [Ankit]
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16:01:23 [philr]
present +philr
16:01:30 [Ankit]
+present Ankit
16:01:41 [Ankit]
present +Ankit
16:02:12 [Naoto]
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16:02:13 [Yves_]
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16:02:32 [tadej]
present+ tadej
16:02:41 [Yves_]
present+ Yves
16:02:47 [Jirka]
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16:02:57 [Clemens_]
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16:03:07 [Naoto]
present+ Naoto
16:03:46 [fsasaki]
present+ dave, dom, leroy
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16:03:52 [shaunm]
present +shaunm
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16:04:30 [Jirka]
present +Jirka
16:04:30 [fsasaki]
present+ shaunm
16:04:37 [joerg]
present+ joerg
16:04:51 [chriLi]
present+ chriLi
16:05:14 [fsasaki]
scribe: Yves_
16:05:44 [fsasaki]
16:05:44 [Yves_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Yves_
16:06:01 [fsasaki]
topic: call time
16:06:21 [Yves_]
Felix: proposal is Thursday 4pm UTC
16:06:34 [Yves_]
.. that's 5pm CET
16:06:43 [Yves_]
.. that's 9am MST
16:06:45 [Clemens_]
happy new year together
16:07:07 [Yves_]
all ok with the new day
16:07:38 [Yves_]
Jirka: will have conflict
16:07:43 [Milan]
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16:08:02 [Yves_]
Felix: will do a Doodle for the time of the call
16:08:15 [fsasaki]
topic: LC feedback
16:08:22 [Yves_]
present+ Milan
16:08:22 [fsasaki]
16:08:30 [Clemens_]
present+ Clemens
16:08:35 [Fredrik]
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16:08:40 [Yves_]
Felix: several comments, but none from outside the WG
16:08:54 [Yves_]
.. can't move forward in that case
16:09:09 [Yves_]
Jorg: maybe the comment period was a bad one
16:09:14 [Yves_]
Felix: agree
16:10:12 [Yves_]
.. should extend until Jan-18
16:10:21 [Yves_]
all: ok with that
16:10:32 [Yves_]
Felix: please nudge your contacts
16:10:49 [Yves_]
.. we will get comments from the i18n WG
16:10:57 [Yves_]
.. for sure. but we need more
16:11:15 [Yves_]
Dave: can people comment that they have no c0omments?
16:11:20 [Yves_]
Felix: yes
16:11:41 [Yves_]
.. endorsment is fine
16:11:56 [fsasaki]
topic: 2.1) New value for localization quality type "conformance"
16:12:12 [Yves_]
Felix: brought up by Phil before the Holidays
16:12:21 [Yves_]
.. no disagreement to add the new value
16:12:29 [Yves_]
.. no additional support either
16:13:08 [Yves_]
DF: seems to be a normative change, no?
16:13:15 [Yves_]
Felix: possibly
16:13:35 [Yves_]
.. need a strong reason to do the change
16:13:50 [Yves_]
.. any supporter in addition to Phil?
16:14:18 [Yves_]
DF: should try to avoid normative changes
16:14:27 [Yves_]
.. wait if it's really needed
16:14:41 [Yves_]
Phil: being additional value makes it easier
16:14:50 [Yves_]
.. no back compatibility issue, etc.
16:15:11 [Yves_]
.. we have a definite need for it.
16:15:26 [Yves_]
Felix: but it's a borderline change
16:15:38 [Yves_]
.. would have to justify the rational
16:15:55 [Yves_]
.. would drop it now, but keep it open
16:16:10 [Yves_]
.. you could try to fine supporters
16:16:12 [fsasaki]
topic: 2.2) Removing disambigClassPointer
16:16:22 [Yves_]
.. other tool to consume/generate that data
16:16:24 [fsasaki]
16:16:47 [fsasaki]
16:16:50 [Yves_]
Felix: a change in the Disambiguation data category
16:17:03 [Yves_]
.. 0180 email is the right link
16:17:11 [Yves_]
.. this is dropping an attribute
16:17:37 [Yves_]
.. but ok because to test or processing is changed by it
16:17:51 [Yves_]
DF: looks like an omission correction
16:18:03 [Yves_]
Felix: will do the edit after the call
16:18:14 [fsasaki]
topic: 2.3) Need to clarify global provenance
16:18:23 [fsasaki]
16:18:45 [Yves_]
Felix: this one is to clarify the global provenance
16:18:58 [fsasaki]
The attribute provenanceRecordsRefPointer does not apply to HTML as local markup is provided for direct annotation in HTML. Because that information is the only one in the provRule element, the global rule does not apply to HTML.
16:19:44 [Yves_]
.. it explains why the global rule does not apply to HTML
16:19:59 [Yves_]
Dave: sounds like a clarification, not a substantive change
16:20:16 [Yves_]
.. original wording was close to the LQI text
16:20:26 [Yves_]
.. maybe we need to look at it there too
16:20:57 [Yves_]
Felix: for LQI the requirements are different
16:21:15 [Yves_]
.. that's why we have different cases
16:21:26 [Yves_]
.. best practices will be important
16:21:39 [fsasaki]
topic: 2.4) Location of its:version
16:21:47 [fsasaki]
16:22:19 [fsasaki]
"If there is no rules element in an XML document, a prefixed ITS version attribute (e.g. its:version) MUST be provided at the root element of the
16:22:19 [Yves_]
Felix: this one is to allow more flexible location of the version
16:22:21 [fsasaki]
16:23:36 [Yves_]
.. not only in the root, but anywhere in the upper part of the tree of a given node
16:23:46 [Yves_]
.. not a sever change
16:23:56 [leroy]
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16:24:03 [Yves_]
.. just change checking before you do the process
16:24:23 [Yves_]
Shaun: would require to change implementation though
16:24:26 [daveL]
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16:24:41 [Yves_]
.. not too bad, but it's mean changing the code
16:24:45 [Yves_]
Yves: agree
16:25:09 [Yves_]
Felix: means a difference between 1.0 and 2.0
16:25:50 [Yves_]
Yves: not sure there is a problem
16:26:11 [Yves_]
Shaun: if it's in the root, and it's an ITS 1.0 processor it's invalid
16:26:26 [Yves_]
DF: 1.0 requires it in the root
16:26:33 [Yves_]
.. but what is the gaol
16:26:43 [Yves_]
.. what is compliant to our principles?
16:27:13 [fsasaki]
yves_: 1.0 processor can't check 2.0 subset
16:27:44 [Yves_]
shaun: 2.0 processor should process 1.0, but not the reverse
16:28:01 [Yves_]
.. and here 1.0 processor can know the case
16:28:22 [Yves_]
Felix: need to have note in the spc
16:28:40 [Yves_]
ACTION: Yves_ to propose notes for the version location change
16:28:40 [trackbot]
Error finding 'Yves_'. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
16:28:46 [Yves_]
ACTION: Yves to propose notes for the version location change
16:28:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-382 - Propose notes for the version location change [on Yves Savourel - due 2013-01-14].
16:28:53 [fsasaki]
topic: 2.5) Regular expression change
16:29:15 [daveL]
FYI: TCD has rejoined the internet
16:29:19 [fsasaki]
scribe: Yves_
16:29:26 [fsasaki]
scribe: fsasaki
16:29:36 [fsasaki]
yves: I re-raised issue I raised earlier
16:29:44 [fsasaki]
.. about using XSD regex for allowed characters
16:29:50 [fsasaki]
.. earlier we started with a subset of that
16:29:59 [fsasaki]
.. we then moved to the XSD character class
16:30:16 [fsasaki]
.. I didn't disagree strongly at that point so that other implmeneters can work on this
16:30:22 [fsasaki]
.. I think it's an interop issue
16:30:42 [fsasaki]
.. it would be better for the allowedchararacter class to be processed with other engines than xsd
16:30:56 [fsasaki]
.. we can have a subset that works with dotnet, java, xsd etc.
16:31:08 [fsasaki]
.. the only difference is that the user might have to change the way to write a regex
16:31:19 [fsasaki]
.. but that's not a big deal, the interop we gain is more important
16:31:41 [fsasaki]
shaun: you are going to say that you will have the subset
16:31:54 [fsasaki]
.. but tools need to be required to check that they conform from to the subset
16:32:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
16:32:44 [fsasaki]
yves: the schema would ensure that the expression is valid or not
16:33:09 [fsasaki]
phil: agree with Yves' argument
16:33:30 [fsasaki]
.. having to figure out equivalent regex syntax can be hard
16:33:38 [fsasaki]
shaun: in general I agree with Yves
16:33:51 [fsasaki]
.. just worried about the verification of the subset
16:34:59 [fsasaki]
felix: would we have a volunteer to help defining the regex subset?
16:35:02 [fsasaki]
shaun: I could do that?
16:35:12 [fsasaki]
16:35:26 [fsasaki]
scribe: Yves_
16:35:28 [Yves_]
scribe: Yves
16:35:42 [Yves_]
Felix: this change may be seen as normative
16:36:05 [Yves_]
ACTION: Felix to give heads up to W3C about the possible change
16:36:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-383 - Give heads up to W3C about the possible change [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-01-14].
16:36:48 [Yves_]
DF: is it absolute that one such change would force a new revision
16:37:08 [Yves_]
.. is it a problem to have another LC?
16:37:35 [Yves_]
Felix: there is a difference between extending the LC period and doing a new publication
16:37:54 [Yves_]
DF: agree, this change seems big and warrant a new publication
16:38:14 [Yves_]
.. would hope we can do without
16:38:27 [Yves_]
.. because it brings additional feature change often
16:39:04 [Yves_]
Jirka: this change is not so big, each XSD-based implementation will be compatible
16:39:18 [Yves_]
.. with the old syntax
16:39:57 [Yves_]
.. using a sub-set is compatible
16:40:11 [Yves_]
DF: so we would not break anything?
16:40:21 [chriLi]
16:40:36 [Yves_]
Jirka: only issue would be if current implementations use special XSD faeture
16:40:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
16:40:43 [Yves_]
.. but that's not the case
16:41:06 [Jirka]
16:41:46 [Yves_]
Jorg: with sub-set an XSD RE would be ok
16:42:10 [Yves_]
.. need to explain what kind of RE engine are supported by the sub-set
16:42:24 [fsasaki]
ack chri
16:43:32 [Yves_]
Christian: does the sub-set has the same expressive power?
16:43:39 [Yves_]
Yves: from examples, yes.
16:44:23 [Yves_]
DF: a formal proof would be an agrument to not do a new LC
16:45:27 [Yves_]
.. even if we have a formal proof that the change does not affect the capability, the spec needs a new LC?
16:45:31 [Yves_]
Felix: yes
16:45:59 [Yves_]
.. e.g using the Unicode blocks would be 'broken'
16:46:27 [Yves_]
.. basically it's a matter of negociation
16:46:41 [fsasaki]
s/negotation/negoation in the w3c mgmt/
16:47:15 [Yves_]
DF: seems the discussion go back and forth
16:47:31 [Yves_]
.. so what is the new evidence is the question.
16:47:50 [Yves_]
.. seems people have different view at different time
16:48:44 [Yves_]
felix: from implementer it's unlikely to go back to XSD RE
16:48:55 [Yves_]
.. noone is pushing in that direction
16:49:05 [Yves_]
16:49:34 [fsasaki]
topic: 3.4) Test suite dashboard
16:49:34 [Yves_]
.. so we wait to see the regex from Shaun/yves
16:49:59 [fsasaki]
16:50:06 [Yves_]
Felix: worked on the test suite dashboard
16:50:07 [DomJones1]
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16:50:37 [Yves_]
.. did you have a time to look at it?
16:51:05 [Yves_]
.. was proposing to drop the Google doc and replace it with an XML doc
16:51:06 [fsasaki]
16:51:17 [Yves_]
.. automatically generated from the test suite results
16:51:27 [fsasaki]
16:51:44 [Yves_]
.. and the HTML page would be generated automatically
16:52:22 [Yves_]
.. this way a simple stylesheet can re-generate the output from the developer outputs
16:52:32 [Yves_]
Dave: appreciate the work
16:52:49 [Yves_]
leroy: agree, looks fine
16:53:02 [Yves_]
.. need to finish the corrections from Jirka
16:53:08 [Yves_]
.. add a few test files
16:53:20 [Yves_]
.. and after that I can look at it
16:53:34 [Yves_]
.. should be able to work on it by end of week
16:53:59 [Yves_]
Felix: so by next monday we can deprecate the Google doc and use the XML output
16:54:07 [Yves_]
.. it would be on Github as well
16:54:13 [Yves_]
leroy: agree
16:54:31 [fsasaki]
16:54:42 [Yves_]
Felix: need input test cases for some data categories
16:54:46 [Yves_]
.. see the list
16:55:01 [Yves_]
.. M3 deadline is at the end of January
16:55:06 [DomJones1]
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16:55:11 [fsasaki]
16:55:21 [Yves_]
.. changes in the suite are documented in the above link
16:55:33 [fsasaki]
topic: 5) XML Prague demo session
16:55:40 [fsasaki]
16:56:13 [Yves_]
Felix: we'll have confirmation from fredrik (ENLASO) that he'll be there
16:56:14 [fsasaki]
present+ fredrik
16:56:29 [Yves_]
.. Dave as well?
16:56:39 [Yves_]
Dave: leroy should be able to go
16:57:00 [Yves_]
.. are we presenting this as a MLW event?
16:57:12 [Jirka]
16:57:13 [Yves_]
Felix: pre-conference day, 1.5h slot
16:57:35 [Yves_]
.. Karl also said he would be available
16:57:48 [Yves_]
.. need to distribute the work between those people
16:58:08 [Yves_]
ACTION: Felix to make agenda proposal for Prague meeting about the XML prague day
16:58:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-384 - Make agenda proposal for Prague meeting about the XML prague day [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-01-14].
16:58:22 [Yves_]
Karl: do i need to register?
16:58:50 [Yves_]
Jirka: yes
16:59:02 [Yves_]
.. fee is small
16:59:25 [Yves_]
felix: this is ok to use the LT-Web budget for this
16:59:32 [Jirka]
Registration for XML Prague
16:59:47 [Yves_]
Clemens: can we access the full conference for 40 Euro?
17:00:02 [Yves_]
Jirka: yes, but not to lunches and social events
17:00:11 [Yves_]
.. for that it's 100 Euros
17:00:31 [Yves_]
Felix: anyone else?
17:00:50 [Yves_]
DF: will try see if it's needed
17:01:07 [Yves_]
Felix: this is about demoing implementations
17:01:26 [Yves_]
.. good opportunity to bridge to the content world
17:01:40 [Yves_]
DF: yes, good way to contact XML people
17:01:49 [Yves_]
Felix: Prague F2F is soon
17:02:30 [Yves_]
.. let's talk about the EC-specific parts.
17:02:32 [fsasaki]
topic: 8) EC-project internal
17:03:04 [Yves_]
Felix: need input from Ankit
17:03:19 [Fredrik]
17:03:27 [Yves_]
.. MT harvesting tool taks: any update?
17:03:44 [Yves_]
Ankit: started to work with Cocomore on this
17:04:19 [Yves_]
Felix: talked to Clemens about this, but no info on the tool
17:04:33 [Yves_]
Ankit: we need to data to make the tool
17:04:45 [Yves_]
.. by end of January we should have prototype
17:05:09 [Yves_]
Karl: Not quite sure
17:05:37 [Yves_]
Felix: Ankit let me know if you don't get info from Clemens
17:05:54 [Yves_]
.. david: any update on roundtipping with XLIFF?
17:06:08 [Yves_]
DF: yes, should be able to provide that Wednesday
17:06:37 [Yves_]
Phil: what info will you have on Wednesday?
17:06:48 [Yves_]
.. does it includes the mapping?
17:07:00 [Yves_]
DF: we have a working prototype
17:07:13 [Yves_]
.. part of it is the mapping, but not frozen
17:07:28 [Yves_]
Felix:the task is about a prototype
17:07:44 [Yves_]
DF: Q1 is the time when we'll work on this
17:07:57 [Yves_]
.. we have work in progress
17:08:52 [Yves_]
Felix: anything else?
17:09:05 [Yves_]
meeting adjourned
17:09:17 [Yves_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:09:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Yves_
17:09:26 [dF]
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17:19:51 [Yves_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:19:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Yves_
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