14:55:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ldp
14:55:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/07-ldp-irc
14:55:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:55:58 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ldp
14:56:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP
14:56:00 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:01 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
14:56:01 <trackbot> Date: 07 January 2013
14:58:40 <W782C> W782C has joined #ldp
14:59:22 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has now started
14:59:29 <Zakim> +??P0
14:59:32 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
14:59:35 <deiu> Zakim, ??P0 is me
14:59:35 <Zakim> +deiu; got it
14:59:46 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:59:51 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
14:59:51 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
14:59:53 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
14:59:53 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
14:59:55 <deiu> Zakim, mute me please
14:59:55 <Zakim> deiu should now be muted
15:00:02 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:00:07 <Ruben> Ruben has joined #ldp
15:00:08 <Zakim> +Arnaud
15:00:13 <SteveS> zakim, [IBM] is me
15:00:14 <Zakim> +SteveS; got it
15:00:24 <BartvanLeeuwen> BartvanLeeuwen has joined #ldp
15:01:15 <MacTed> MacTed has changed the topic to: Linked Data Platform WG - http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/ - Today's agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.01.07
15:01:24 <Zakim> +SteveBattle
15:01:31 <Zakim> + +329331aaaa
15:01:37 <Ruben> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:01:37 <Zakim> +Ruben; got it
15:01:38 <Zakim> +??P10
15:01:43 <Ashok_Malhotra> Ashok_Malhotra has joined #ldp
15:01:44 <Zakim> +??P11
15:01:49 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, ??P10 is me
15:01:49 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it
15:01:52 <Ashok_Malhotra> zakim, code?
15:01:52 <Zakim> the conference code is 53794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Ashok_Malhotra
15:02:11 <JohnArwe> JohnArwe has joined #ldp
15:02:26 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
15:02:35 <Zakim> +JohnArwe
15:02:43 <W782C> Zakim, ??P11 is me
15:02:43 <Zakim> +W782C; got it
15:03:03 <Zakim> +bblfish
15:03:11 <bblfish> hi
15:03:14 <Arnaud> zakim, who's here?
15:03:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see bblfish, deiu (muted), MacTed (muted), Sandro, SteveS, Arnaud, SteveBattle, Ruben, BartvanLeeuwen, W782C, Ashok_Malhotra, JohnArwe
15:03:17 <Zakim> On IRC I see JohnArwe, Ashok_Malhotra, BartvanLeeuwen, Ruben, W782C, Zakim, RRSAgent, Arnaud, bhyland, MacTed, SteveS, AndyS, betehess, stevebattle, oberger, deiu, Yves, trackbot,
15:03:17 <Zakim> ... bblfish, gavinc, sandro, ericP
15:03:32 <krp> krp has joined #ldp
15:04:04 <Zakim> +Yves
15:04:27 <bblfish> happy new 2013
15:04:49 <Arnaud> zakim, pick a victim
15:04:49 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose bblfish
15:05:23 <Arnaud> zakim, pick a victim
15:05:23 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ruben
15:05:30 <Zakim> +??P25
15:05:56 <krp> zakim, ??P25 is me
15:05:56 <Zakim> +krp; got it
15:06:14 <Zakim> +EricP
15:06:57 <Ruben> topic: minutes of last meeting
15:07:15 <SteveS> +1 accepted Dec 17th minutes
15:07:18 <Ruben> +1
15:07:20 <deiu> +1
15:07:20 <stevebattle> +1
15:07:32 <bblfish> minutes of http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/meeting/2012-12-17
15:07:35 <nmihindu> +1
15:08:02 <Ruben> resolved: minutes of previous meeting accepted
15:08:33 <Ruben> topic: next f2c
15:08:40 <Ruben> arnaud: Boston is proposed
15:08:44 <Ruben> proposal: make this official
15:09:12 <Ruben> scribe: Ruben
15:09:13 <Ashok_Malhotra> March 13-15 at MIT
15:09:14 <deiu> Proposal for next face to face to be held at MIT in Boston 2013-03-13 to 2013-03-15 (3 days).
15:09:15 <JohnArwe> March 13-15
15:09:41 <SteveS> +1 to freezing in Boston
15:09:41 <Ruben> Erik will set up a workshop page
15:10:08 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2011/09/LinkedData/#venue
15:11:51 <Ruben> Sandro already reserved a room for this.
15:12:28 <Ruben> Topic: Actions and issues
15:12:58 <Ruben> No victory declared on open actions.
15:13:09 <sandro> ericP, I just confirmed, yes I reserved G882.
15:13:37 <Ruben> Arnaud: We left issue 5 open on purpose, as discussed last time.
15:13:52 <Ruben> Who is speaking?
15:14:00 <stevebattle> Issue-41 was waiting for the OK from John Arew
15:14:11 <stevebattle> s/Arew/Arwe
15:14:34 <sandro> ericP, we also have 262 reserved.      Are we teleconferencing or not?
15:14:47 <Ruben> Propose: changing 5 from pending to postpone
15:15:28 <deiu> issue-41?
15:15:28 <trackbot> ISSUE-41 -- Standard way to manage members with attachments -- pending review
15:15:28 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/41
15:15:28 <Ruben> Arnaud: is this issue a duplicate?
15:15:55 <Zakim> -krp
15:15:57 <stevebattle> We also added text in UC&R 4.8.2 to cover this
15:16:09 <stevebattle> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/hg/ldp-ucr.html#alternative-scenario-media-resource-attachments
15:16:23 <Zakim> +??P25
15:16:30 <krp> zakim, ??P25 is me
15:16:30 <Zakim> +krp; got it
15:16:38 <Ruben> JohnArwe: fine to close the issue
15:16:43 <Ruben> Arnaud: let's do that
15:17:06 <Ruben> all: No objections to closing this issue.
15:17:34 <Ruben> close issue 41
15:17:40 <JohnArwe> close issue-41
15:17:40 <trackbot> Closed ISSUE-41 Standard way to manage members with attachments.
15:17:56 <stevebattle> raised issues?
15:17:59 <trackbot> Sorry, JohnArwe, I don't understand 'trackbot wants dashes'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
15:18:16 <stevebattle> q+
15:18:36 <Arnaud> ack steve
15:18:40 <Ruben> stevebattle: we've got 8 bad references, just need to get document in shape
15:18:58 <Ruben> SteveS: the bad references – a patch has been submitted
15:19:13 <Zakim> -krp
15:19:33 <Zakim> +??P25
15:19:35 <krp> zakim, ??P25 is me
15:19:35 <Zakim> +krp; got it
15:20:50 <stevebattle> Arnause - we didn't cover raised issues.
15:20:56 <Ruben> arnaud: What about the specifications?
15:21:05 <stevebattle> s/Arnause/Arnaud/
15:21:08 <Zakim> -krp
15:21:22 <Ruben> JohnArwe: made some minor fixes
15:21:30 <Zakim> +??P25
15:22:11 <Ruben> topic: Discussing issues
15:22:32 <Ruben> Arnaud: ongoing discussion on aggregation versus composition
15:22:36 <Ruben> Arnaud: should we have aggregation?
15:22:49 <Ruben> Arnaud: several proposals were sent to mailing list
15:23:23 <ericP> q+ to ask if the only distinction between aggregation and composition is whether resources are deleted when their containers are deleted
15:23:40 <Ruben> Arnaud: how many proposals do we want to consider?
15:23:46 <Arnaud> ack ericp
15:23:46 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if the only distinction between aggregation and composition is whether resources are deleted when their containers are deleted
15:23:48 <bblfish> q+
15:23:51 <JohnArwe> Note that we do have a new RAISED issue, 42 about section 4.8 and its prescriptiveness
15:24:03 <SteveS> q+ to answer that question
15:24:17 <Ruben> arnaud: without a proposal, it's hard to say deleting is only difference
15:24:57 <bblfish> My simple proposals http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2012Dec/0113.html
15:25:13 <SteveS> Composition: 1) resource only "lives" in one container 2) when container is deleted, so its contents 3) may (or may not) be able to move resources between containers
15:25:27 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
15:26:05 <Ruben> bblfish: suggest simple proposals
15:26:10 <Ruben> bblfish: only create with container
15:26:25 <Ruben> bblfish: to create anything else, just create document, do updates with PUT
15:26:32 <Ruben> bblfish: PATCH is just optimization
15:27:27 <Ruben> bblfish: to delete a link, just change the document
15:27:28 <Arnaud> ack steves
15:27:28 <Zakim> SteveS, you wanted to answer that question
15:27:38 <Zakim> -??P25
15:27:44 <Ruben> SteveS: difference is that a resource is a member of one container
15:28:01 <Zakim> +??P6
15:28:09 <Ruben> SteveS: what's open, is ability to relocated from one container to another
15:28:09 <krp> zakim, ??P6 is me
15:28:09 <Zakim> +krp; got it
15:29:05 <Ruben> SteveS: comment on Henri's proposal – if the URL you're posting to is a container, or an endpoint that can handle container or resource creation?
15:29:13 <stevebattle> q+
15:29:14 <Ruben> s/if/is/
15:29:38 <Ruben> bblfish: you can create "containees"
15:30:02 <Ruben> bblfish: to create an aggregation, you POST a document containing the information about what the elements of the container you want to create are
15:30:27 <Ruben> bblfish: such a document is editable
15:31:03 <Ruben> bblfish: does that make sense?
15:31:06 <Ruben> SteveS: mostly
15:31:55 <Arnaud> ack steveb
15:31:57 <Ruben> bblfish: let's discuss on mailing list
15:32:16 <Ruben> steveb: I like Henri's example outline, but have some questions
15:32:22 <Ruben> steveb: why weak container and not LDP container?
15:32:38 <Ruben> steveb: why a fragment ID… ?
15:33:54 <stevebattle> stevebattle: I like the use of a :contains property for describing composition
15:34:48 <Ruben> bblfish; you can't do a POST to create another element
15:35:12 <Ruben> bblfish: fragement IDs: you're not dealing with a resource, helps to make distinction
15:35:18 <Ruben> s/fragement/fragment
15:36:10 <Zakim> -krp
15:36:15 <stevebattle> ok I misunderstood, I thought this could be used to create resources using POST
15:36:23 <Zakim> +??P6
15:36:26 <krp> zakim, ??P6 is me
15:36:26 <Zakim> +krp; got it
15:36:53 <Ruben> arnaud: how many proposals do we really have?
15:36:55 <JohnArwe> I [also] thought Henry's proposal could be used to create resources using POST
15:37:08 <JohnArwe> ...but that's why I ask questions ;-)
15:37:10 <Ruben> Arnaud: can we group them together?
15:37:21 <bblfish> what was the URL for that proposal?
15:37:37 <Ruben> Arnaud: we should make progress towards one proposal for addition to the spec
15:37:39 <SteveS> I propose we open an issue for week aggregation, then hook these proposals off of that
15:37:51 <bblfish> was it this one http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2012Dec/0073.html
15:37:52 <bblfish> ?
15:38:09 <JohnArwe> steve speich speaking
15:38:11 <Ruben> SteveS: we need an open issue
15:38:16 <JohnArwe> s/speich/speicher/
15:38:20 <ericP> is it worth dividing this into facets (creates resources, accepts external resources, must|may|mustn't deleted all|created resources)
15:38:27 <stevebattle> I was talking about composition???
15:38:35 <Ruben> Arnaud: can we reuse an issue for this?
15:38:47 <ericP> and then characterize the proposals according to those facets
15:39:00 <JohnArwe> issues 34 and 37 appear related
15:39:10 <bblfish> q?
15:39:13 <bblfish> q+
15:39:14 <Ruben> Arnaud: Eric started a wiki page for proposal
15:39:26 <Arnaud> s/eric/erik/
15:39:29 <JohnArwe> s/Eric/Erik/
15:39:37 <stevebattle> q+
15:39:40 <bblfish> q-
15:39:47 <Ashok_Malhotra> +1 to creating facets and use then to evaluate proposals
15:39:47 <SteveS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2012Dec/0118.html
15:39:50 <bblfish> thanks
15:39:57 <Arnaud> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/ISSUE-37
15:40:10 <stevebattle> q-
15:40:30 <Ruben> issue-37?
15:40:30 <trackbot> ISSUE-37 -- What is the LDP data model and the LDP interaction model? -- open
15:40:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/37
15:41:48 <bblfish> issue-34?
15:41:48 <trackbot> ISSUE-34 -- Adding and removing arcs in weak aggregation -- open
15:41:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/34
15:41:49 <MacTed> it's safe to create a new issue, even if there's overlap -- make note of potential overlap in writeup of new issue!
15:42:06 <MacTed> if today's can be worded clearly, just create it
15:42:14 <Ruben> Arnaud: do we need another wiki page for aggregation proposal?
15:42:14 <ericP> q+
15:42:35 <Ruben> Arnaud: or do we use the mailing list (which seems a challenge)?
15:43:23 <SteveS> q+
15:43:46 <bblfish> I suppose I forgot to add the ISSUE-34 into the mail I sent
15:44:05 <JohnArwe> wrt issue 34, not too late, just add in the next reply
15:44:36 <JohnArwe> wrt your proposal henry, do you want to own yours or do you want me to take a first stab at it?
15:45:17 <bblfish> If you want to put it together, then I can see if I was able to explain myself clearly JohnArwe :-)
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15:45:33 <SteveS> I was wondering by we needed a wiki page to track the email threads, instead of just adding emails to the issue
15:45:46 <JohnArwe> sure - post that next set of answers we spoke of earlier on this call Henry, and I'll try to start from there.
15:45:48 <Ruben> arnaud: I agree, there's a little overlap with the LDP model
15:45:50 <SteveS> but a wiki table would be good like ericP discusses
15:45:51 <ericP> ack me
15:46:16 <Ruben> Arnaud: if John's willing to do the effort of wikifying, that's great
15:46:22 <Arnaud> ack steves
15:46:36 <JohnArwe> I agree that the questions will themselves inform the set of facets in EricP's table that we end up with
15:46:45 <Zakim> -krp
15:46:48 <bblfish> JohnArwe: but just ping me when you have something basic going. Then I'll check up on it.
15:46:52 <Ruben> SteveS: to track proposals on 34, it's valuable to have one proposal to iterate on
15:46:58 <Zakim> +??P6
15:47:02 <krp> zakim, ??P6 is me
15:47:02 <Zakim> +krp; got it
15:47:21 <Ruben> Arnaud: on the issue, shall we link to the wiki page?
15:47:32 <Ruben> SteveS: someone's got to update the wiki
15:47:38 <Ruben> Arnaud: JohnArwe will do that
15:48:37 <Ruben> Arnaud: we still should tag issue numbers on mails
15:48:49 <bblfish> you can also put a link into the Issue page with a link to the wiki
15:48:54 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #ldp
15:48:54 <Zakim> -krp
15:49:07 <Zakim> +??P6
15:49:32 <Ruben> putting the issue number anywhere in the mail should work
15:50:32 <Ruben> Action: aggregate aggregation proposals
15:50:32 <trackbot> Error finding 'aggregate'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/users>.
15:50:40 <JohnArwe> action: johnarwe to create wiki page for issue-34 proposals
15:50:40 <trackbot> Error finding 'johnarwe'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/users>.
15:51:09 <bblfish> action: JohnArwe to create wiki page for issue-34 proposals
15:51:09 <trackbot> Error finding 'JohnArwe'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/users>.
15:51:15 <bblfish> action, JohnArwe to create wiki page for issue-34 proposals
15:51:18 <JohnArwe> action: john to create wiki page for issue-34 proposals
15:51:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-35 - Create wiki page for issue-34 proposals [on John Arwe - due 2013-01-14].
15:52:09 <Ruben> arnaud: anything else?
15:52:22 <Ruben> topic: Issue 42
15:52:26 <Ruben> issue-42?
15:52:26 <trackbot> ISSUE-42 -- Use of common-properties should not be overly prescriptive in section 4.8 -- raised
15:52:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/42
15:52:30 <JohnArwe> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/raised
15:52:54 <stevebattle> q+
15:53:04 <Arnaud> ack steveb
15:53:29 <Ruben> stevebattle: I was reviewing the spec and noticed in 4.8 it defines a number of properties, and says that you must use them when you can
15:53:37 <AndyS> AndyS has left #ldp
15:53:57 <Ruben> stevebattle: 4.8 seems to be over-prescriptive: it may not be appropriate to use these properties in some cases
15:54:22 <Ruben> arnaud: somebody on the public list said it's more best practice
15:54:31 <Ruben> s/more/rather/
15:54:47 <stevebattle> s/somebody/Leigh Dodds/
15:55:06 <Ruben> arnaud: eventually, we agreed to remove them, because there would be a separate best practices document
15:55:31 <Ruben> arnaud: we should open this. any comments?
15:55:32 <SteveS> no comments
15:55:35 <stevebattle> +1
15:55:36 <Ruben> propose: open
15:55:42 <Ruben> accept
15:55:45 <Ruben> open issue-41
15:55:48 <SteveS> +1 to open
15:55:51 <MacTed> +1
15:55:52 <deiu> +1
15:55:54 <bblfish> +1
15:55:59 <nmihindu> +1
15:56:05 <Ruben> open issue-42
15:56:19 <bblfish> what was the question?
15:56:44 <stevebattle> +1
15:56:48 <Yves> issue42?
15:56:49 <Ruben> arnaud: …and let's close it directly, too.
15:56:54 <stevebattle> +1
15:56:54 <Ruben> issue-42?
15:56:54 <trackbot> ISSUE-42 -- Use of common-properties should not be overly prescriptive in section 4.8 -- raised
15:56:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/42
15:57:00 <SteveS> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Deployment_Guide
15:57:27 <Arnaud> proposal: remove section 4.8 from the ldp spec and move it to the deployment guide - it is a best practice
15:57:34 <bblfish> +1
15:57:35 <stevebattle> +1 already
15:57:36 <Ruben> +1
15:57:47 <SteveS> +1
15:57:51 <Zakim> -??P6
15:57:57 <deiu> +1
15:57:59 <MacTed> +1
15:58:09 <Zakim> +??P6
15:58:27 <nmihindu> +1
15:58:29 <krp> zakim, ??P6 is me
15:58:29 <Zakim> +krp; got it
15:58:32 <krp> +1
15:58:35 <Ashok_Malhotra> +1
15:58:39 <JohnArwe> +1
15:58:53 <Ruben> resolved
15:58:58 <stevebattle> It's a record!
15:59:07 <bblfish> RESOLVED: remove section 4.8 from the ldp spec and move it to the deployment guide - it is a best practice
15:59:27 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
15:59:34 <Ruben> arnaud: the editor now has a pending action to remove 4.8
16:00:11 <Ruben> SteveS: Robin merged changed, just one left
16:00:35 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:00:38 <Zakim> -bblfish
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16:00:42 <Zakim> -Yves
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16:00:53 <Zakim> -krp
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16:01:46 <Zakim> -W782C
16:01:47 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended
16:01:47 <Zakim> Attendees were deiu, Sandro, MacTed, Arnaud, SteveS, SteveBattle, +329331aaaa, Ruben, BartvanLeeuwen, Ashok_Malhotra, JohnArwe, W782C, bblfish, Yves, krp, EricP
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