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14:52:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ldp 14:52:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/21-ldp-irc 14:52:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public 14:52:50 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ldp 14:52:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP 14:52:52 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes 14:52:53 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference 14:52:53 <trackbot> Date: 21 January 2013 14:54:53 <BartvanLeeuwen> BartvanLeeuwen has joined #ldp 14:54:56 <Ruben1> Ruben1 has joined #ldp 14:55:50 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has now started 14:55:57 <Zakim> +Ruben 14:56:11 <Ashok> zakim, code? 14:56:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 53794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:firstname.lastname@example.org), Ashok 14:56:58 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra 14:58:11 <Zakim> +SteveBattle 14:58:26 <rgarcia> rgarcia has joined #ldp 14:59:40 <Zakim> +EricP 14:59:49 <Zakim> +Arnaud 15:00:24 <Zakim> +bblfish 15:00:28 <Zakim> +??P9 15:00:56 <Zakim> +[IBM] 15:01:03 <SteveS> zakim, [IBM] is me 15:01:03 <Zakim> +SteveS; got it 15:01:05 <rgarcia> zakim, ??P9 is me 15:01:05 <Zakim> +rgarcia; got it 15:01:18 <JohnArwe> JohnArwe has joined #ldp 15:01:53 <Zakim> +JohnArwe 15:01:56 <Zakim> +??P12 15:02:01 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, ??P12 is me 15:02:01 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it 15:02:21 <JohnArwe> zakim, who is here? 15:02:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ruben, Ashok_Malhotra, SteveBattle, EricP, Arnaud, bblfish, rgarcia, SteveS, JohnArwe, BartvanLeeuwen 15:02:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see JohnArwe, rgarcia, Ruben1, BartvanLeeuwen, Zakim, RRSAgent, Ashok, Arnaud, dret, jmvanel, AndyS, sergio, SteveS, stevebattle, deiu, bblfish, trackbot, Yves, sandro, 15:02:23 <Zakim> ... ericP 15:02:34 <cygri> cygri has joined #ldp 15:02:45 <Zakim> +cygri 15:03:07 <Zakim> +roger 15:03:17 <nmihindu> nmihindu has joined #ldp 15:03:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 15:03:46 <rogerm> rogerm has joined #ldp 15:04:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a] 15:04:11 <Arnaud> zakim, who is here? 15:04:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ruben, Ashok_Malhotra, SteveBattle, EricP, Arnaud, bblfish, rgarcia, SteveS, JohnArwe, BartvanLeeuwen, cygri, roger, [IPcaller], [IPcaller.a] 15:04:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see rogerm, nmihindu, cygri, JohnArwe, rgarcia, Ruben1, BartvanLeeuwen, Zakim, RRSAgent, Ashok, Arnaud, dret, jmvanel, AndyS, sergio, SteveS, stevebattle, deiu, bblfish, 15:04:14 <Zakim> ... trackbot, Yves, sandro, ericP 15:04:47 <bblfish> hi 15:04:55 <sergio> I'm out of the office using sip 15:04:58 <sergio> sorry 15:05:14 <dret> Zakim, IPcaller.a is me 15:05:14 <Zakim> +dret; got it 15:05:25 <sergio> Zakim, IPcaller is me 15:05:25 <Zakim> +sergio; got it 15:05:53 <Arnaud> zakim, who is here? 15:05:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ruben, Ashok_Malhotra, SteveBattle, EricP, Arnaud, bblfish, rgarcia, SteveS, JohnArwe, BartvanLeeuwen, cygri, roger, sergio, dret 15:05:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see rogerm, nmihindu, cygri, JohnArwe, rgarcia, Ruben1, BartvanLeeuwen, Zakim, RRSAgent, Ashok, Arnaud, dret, jmvanel, AndyS, sergio, SteveS, stevebattle, deiu, bblfish, 15:05:55 <Zakim> ... trackbot, Yves, sandro, ericP 15:07:24 <JohnArwe> scribe: JohnArwe <JohnArwe> Topic: Minutes of January 14 15:07:36 <JohnArwe> PROPOSED: accept minutes Jan 14 15:07:39 <Zakim> +Yves 15:07:42 <SteveS> +1 15:08:27 <JohnArwe> RESOLVED: minutes of Jan 14 approved without objection 15:08:46 <JohnArwe> topic: Actions/issues <JohnArwe> subTopic: Actions pending review <JohnArwe> ACTION-27 15:09:04 <bblfish> what action? 15:09:14 <bblfish> ISSUE-25? 15:09:14 <trackbot> ISSUE-25 -- Weak aggregation and strong composition in containers -- closed 15:09:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/25 15:10:19 <Kalpa> Kalpa has joined #ldp 15:10:22 <JohnArwe> Arnaud: how to proceed to close? <JohnArwe> SteveS: propose close action now, raise new issues if disagree. 15:10:30 <cygri> zakim, kalpa is with me 15:10:30 <Zakim> +kalpa; got it 15:10:30 <JohnArwe> RESOLVED: Close action-27 15:11:06 <JohnArwe> zero issues pending review. 15:11:13 <JohnArwe> subTOPIC: Raised issues 15:11:25 <JohnArwe> issue-45? 15:11:25 <trackbot> ISSUE-45 -- POSTing to an LDPR appends content to the resource -- raised 15:11:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/45 15:11:38 <bblfish> eu we can close ACTION-28 15:11:52 <stevebattle> A LDPC is defined to be an LDPR 15:12:13 <stevebattle> Isn't this issue ambiguous? 15:13:33 <JohnArwe> Henry, what did your 'eu' mean? 15:13:36 <stevebattle> OK 15:13:44 <bblfish> I don't think an LDPR is a subclass of LDPC 15:13:54 <bblfish> q+ 15:14:03 <bblfish> ah 15:14:04 <bblfish> q- 15:14:30 <JohnArwe> henry, you made a comment in irc about action 28 that I did not understand. 15:14:41 <JohnArwe> PROPOSED: open issue-45 15:14:43 <SteveS> Arnaud: LDPC is a subclass of an LDPR, where POST could be over written 15:14:46 <SteveS> +1 15:15:05 <JohnArwe> Arnaud: hearing no disagreement 15:15:11 <bblfish> Me I think I probably disagree also that an LDPC is an LDPR ... 15:15:12 <JohnArwe> RESOLVED: open issue-45 15:15:17 <bblfish> q+ 15:15:23 <bblfish> can I close http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/28 <JohnArwe> subTopic: ACTION-28 15:15:41 <bblfish> ACTION-28? 15:15:41 <trackbot> ACTION-28 -- Henry Story to access Control: fill in use cases and requirements and Identity section -- due 2012-11-21 -- OPEN 15:15:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/28 15:15:53 <Ashok> q+ 15:16:39 <Zakim> -bblfish 15:16:40 <stevebattle> SteveS, would you like to talk about where we are on UC&R in a moment (I have no info)? 15:16:42 <Arnaud> ack ashok 15:16:51 <bblfish> q- 15:17:45 <Zakim> +bblfish 15:18:15 <SteveS> stevebattle, sure….I really don't think it is in anyone's queue (not sure why) 15:19:39 <bblfish> q- 15:19:40 <JohnArwe> ashok and henry to discuss action-28 and figure out what more to add to page 15:19:56 <JohnArwe> TOPIC: Use Case and Requirements Draft 15:20:15 <JohnArwe> SteveS: not clear whose publication queue it is in 15:21:13 <JohnArwe> Arnaud: Staff contacts (Yves) can you check on status? As far as editors know all issues were addressed and we were expecting it to be published by now. 15:21:31 <JohnArwe> TOPIC: LDP Spec 15:22:17 <JohnArwe> SteveS: inserted all new open issues since F2F, removed closed/handled ones, so (sans issue 45) the editor's draft reflects all open issues. <JohnArwe> Topic: Open Issues 15:23:16 <JohnArwe> subTOPIC: Issue 37 (The Model) 15:23:18 <bblfish> ISSUE-37? 15:23:18 <trackbot> ISSUE-37 -- What is the LDP data model and the LDP interaction model? -- open 15:23:18 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/37 15:23:29 <bblfish> q+ 15:24:30 <Arnaud> ack bblfish 15:24:59 <JohnArwe> Henry: we don't have an ontology, should we open an issue to create one so we can 'argue' more effectively about proposals? 15:25:04 <SteveS> q+ 15:25:18 <stevebattle> I agree (ontology) - just informally on the wiki - not OWL or anything right now. 15:25:58 <cygri> +1 to starting with prose 15:26:01 <sergio> +1 15:26:24 <sergio> formal ontology/vocabulary later 15:27:21 <JohnArwe> Arnaud: wiki will seed, not a substitute for formalism 15:27:47 <Arnaud> ack steves 15:28:11 <Kalpa> +1 for ontology 15:29:05 <JohnArwe> SteveS: Submission did include an ontology. Need to be careful of not having 2 copies evolving in parallel and generating confusiong b/c they do not align. 15:29:57 <bblfish> I'll put up the ontology 15:30:00 <JohnArwe> Arnaud: avoid creating more pages/more places to monitor - be sure they are really needed 15:30:43 <stevebattle> Shall we review by editing the wiki, or via email? 15:31:10 <JohnArwe> Arnaud: members should being reviewing issue 37 wiki page http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/ISSUE-37#Linked_Data_Platform and discuss on mailing list so next week we can make progress 15:32:26 <stevebattle> Yes 15:33:57 <JohnArwe> JohnArwe: as discussions occur, who is going to keep wiki page aligned with email stream? 15:34:23 <JohnArwe> Arnaud: we'll figure that out as we go, the default would be Erik but others can update 15:34:42 <JohnArwe> erik: as various aspects are agreed on, should move into spec 15:35:01 <SteveS> q+ 15:35:13 <JohnArwe> Arnaud: agree; trying to get people to come in prepped next week so we can start assessing agreement on each aspect 15:36:06 <JohnArwe> Steves: you said something we all agree on; I thought we were adding alternatives. What is the relationship between working through things on that page vs closing issue 37? 15:36:47 <JohnArwe> Arnaud: if we agree on everything on the page, we can close the issue. we need to get people's opinions reflected on the page in order to make progress. 15:36:58 <sergio> ISSUE-34? 15:36:58 <trackbot> ISSUE-34 -- Adding and removing arcs in weak aggregation -- open 15:36:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/34 15:37:29 <JohnArwe> subTOPIC: Issue 34 15:37:38 <bblfish> Issue-34? 15:37:38 <trackbot> ISSUE-34 -- Adding and removing arcs in weak aggregation -- open 15:37:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/34 15:38:54 <SteveS> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/ISSUE-34 15:40:05 <JohnArwe> SteveS: JohnArwe constructed page, Henry has one child, Roger has a second, email traffic. 15:41:21 <JohnArwe> Henry: my proposal is compatible with the existing spec I think. I do not see it as different from the spec as it exists today; perhaps we could add an Aggregation class. 15:41:58 <JohnArwe> ... in the process of answering questions I added a bunch of relations, saw that this was ballooning the spec, did not like that, and worked to reduce it back to a minimum. 15:42:01 <Zakim> -EricP 15:42:28 <Zakim> +[GVoice] 15:43:12 <JohnArwe> Arnaud: that's interesting, did not get that from the discussion. So if it's true that aggregation represents just a way of using the existing spec, then we'd have to figure out where to say that. 15:43:50 <JohnArwe> Arnaud: Roger's proposal looks "more different" then, since I think he wants to add a lot more to the spec. 15:44:27 <bblfish> q+ 15:44:59 <JohnArwe> Roger: I think LDP is very general, and if we want uptake need to think about how to address those scenarios. Am I alone in thinking LDP is very general and useful? Use case document seemed to have what I was looking for. 15:45:08 <Arnaud> ack steves 15:45:12 <stevebattle> You have my sympathies :) 15:45:37 <jmvanel> jmvanel has joined #ldp 15:46:17 <Arnaud> ack bblfish 15:46:19 <JohnArwe> SteveS: agree with broader sense, not sure if we agree on how much is reasonable for 2013 scope. Get something with value out sooner, and add later. 15:47:49 <JohnArwe> Henry: aggregation and containment, one would have to go through Roger's example and see if can be done using Henry's (my) proposal. If we assume the "not issue 34" pieces of Roger's example are possible, is there anything in the example that cannot be done? 15:47:59 <Kalpa> Kalpa has joined #ldp 15:48:21 <stevebattle> I imagine that the LDP can be used to pass messages and invoke services in the way that Roger desires by using it as a kind of drop-box. I don't see that it requires additional machinery in the LDP. 15:49:43 <Arnaud> q? 15:49:58 <JohnArwe> Roger: appears with your proposal you're adding more than is needed. I'm imagining you're just editing triples; aggregation is normal linked data. Your proposal seemed to have containment, aggregation, and then something else (latter covered by posting generic RDF). That's too unconstrained for the uses we're targeting. 15:50:34 <JohnArwe> Henry: my example was perhaps in need of improvement. 15:51:06 <JohnArwe> Roger: thought bug tracker example would be a good one to evaluate the proposals against 15:51:11 <stevebattle> Can we take scenarios from the UC&R? 15:53:42 <JohnArwe> Arnaud: existing example (friends/enemies) showed me there was a clear difference in understanding. At F2F we agreed Container does something very special - deleting all members when the container is removed. The friends/enemies example it's just another link to add a friend, you said we needed behavior there too (validation that the linked to resource is a Friend). If it's validation, that's different than aggr. 15:55:08 <bblfish> q+ 15:55:34 <JohnArwe> SteveB: you come to LDPR, it tells you about a few interesting predicates (domain specific) that you can build up/change in order to impl your app. Validation is not the central issue, it's how the client discovers from the server what it can do. 15:55:34 <Arnaud> ack bblfish 15:56:16 <stevebattle> Dare I say it, Roger - you want the available speech acts to be documented. 15:56:38 <Zakim> -bblfish 15:56:41 <bblfish> oops 15:56:47 <bblfish> my skype cut me off 15:56:49 <JohnArwe> Henry: that would be a different issue - how describe what types appear in collection, what types you can create, you can use ontologies 15:57:38 <Zakim> +bblfish 15:58:00 <JohnArwe> SteveB: need more dynamic, not static membership criteria; we concluded properties better than classes. 15:58:10 <Arnaud> q? 15:59:02 <BartvanLeeuwen> q+ 15:59:33 <Zakim> -dret 15:59:35 <Arnaud> ack bart 15:59:36 <BartvanLeeuwen> q- 15:59:39 <JohnArwe> Henry: gives examples of possible graph types, described by vocab that client knows. there's also some vocab about buying things. but those are not obviously the same as aggr 16:00:47 <JohnArwe> Roger: spreads out beyond issue 34, scope creep, issues are wider. 16:01:22 <SteveS> I believe we need to doing something in the spec for aggregation 16:01:33 <Zakim> -Ruben 16:01:42 <Ruben1> Ruben1 has left #ldp 16:02:05 <JohnArwe> Arnaud: slowing getting to pt where we think we don't need to do anything special about aggr, might add text somewhere along the lines of what Henry says, otherw I may propose soon to accept what Henry's discussion comes up with. 16:02:30 <JohnArwe> ...suspect issue 34 resolution becomes we don't need to do anything more (no spec change) 16:02:44 <JohnArwe> ...really comes out as other issues like paging 16:02:50 <Arnaud> q? 16:02:57 <Zakim> -SteveS 16:03:00 <stevebattle> Thanks, bye. 16:03:00 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra 16:03:04 <Zakim> -bblfish 16:03:04 <BartvanLeeuwen> thx Arnaud 16:03:04 <sergio> bye 16:03:05 <Zakim> -Yves 16:03:05 <Zakim> -roger 16:03:05 <Zakim> -rgarcia 16:03:07 <Zakim> -Arnaud 16:03:07 <Zakim> -cygri 16:03:08 <Zakim> -JohnArwe 16:03:09 <Kalpa> Kalpa has left #ldp 16:03:09 <Zakim> -BartvanLeeuwen 16:03:11 <Zakim> -sergio 16:03:12 <SteveS_> SteveS_ has joined #ldp 16:03:13 <Zakim> -ericP 16:03:14 <Zakim> -SteveBattle 16:03:16 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended 16:03:16 <Zakim> Attendees were Ruben, Ashok_Malhotra, SteveBattle, EricP, Arnaud, bblfish, SteveS, rgarcia, JohnArwe, BartvanLeeuwen, cygri, roger, dret, sergio, Yves, kalpa 16:03:36 <JohnArwe> Arnaud, so you take the minutes from here right? 16:04:02 <bblfish> bye 16:04:22 <SteveS_> SteveS_ has joined #ldp 16:07:48 <stevebattle> stevebattle has joined #ldp 16:12:19 <stevebattle> stevebattle has joined #ldp 16:19:38 <Arnaud> johnarwe, yes I will # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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