Chatlog 2012-10-22

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13:59:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ldp
13:59:32 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/22-ldp-irc
13:59:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:59:34 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ldp
13:59:36 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP
13:59:36 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see SW_LDP()10:00AM already started
13:59:37 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
13:59:37 <trackbot> Date: 22 October 2012
13:59:43 <Zakim> +Arnaud
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14:00:33 <krp> krp has left #ldp
14:00:44 <Zakim> -??P3
14:00:50 <Zakim> +??P7
14:00:59 <Zakim> +??P8
14:01:01 <rgarcia> zakim, ??P7 is me
14:01:01 <Zakim> +rgarcia; got it
14:01:13 <oberger> Zakim, ??P8 is me
14:01:13 <Zakim> +oberger; got it
14:01:15 <Zakim> + +1.845.235.aaaa
14:01:23 <JohnArwe> zakim, aaaa is me
14:01:23 <Zakim> +JohnArwe; got it
14:01:26 <Zakim> +??P10
14:01:27 <Zakim> +??P3
14:01:28 <Zakim> +Ruben
14:01:35 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:01:36 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
14:01:36 <Zakim> +SteveBattle
14:01:38 <antonis> zakim, ??p10 is me
14:01:39 <Zakim> +antonis; got it
14:01:44 <Zakim> + +44.208.573.aabb
14:01:51 <svillata> Zakim, ??P3 is me
14:01:51 <Zakim> +svillata; got it
14:02:06 <Ruben> Ruben has joined #ldp
14:02:09 <nmihindu> nmihindu has joined #ldp
14:02:13 <Ruben> zakim, who am i
14:02:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who am i', Ruben
14:02:24 <Ruben> zakim, who is there
14:02:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is there', Ruben
14:02:30 <Zakim> +Yves
14:02:33 <Ruben> zakim, who is here
14:02:33 <Zakim> Ruben, you need to end that query with '?'
14:02:40 <Ruben> zakim, who is here?
14:02:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Arnaud, rgarcia, oberger, JohnArwe, antonis, svillata, Ruben, Sandro, SteveBattle, Ashok_Malhotra, +44.208.573.aabb, Yves
14:02:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see nmihindu, Ruben, Ashok_Malhotra, rgarcia, Zakim, RRSAgent, stevebattle, svillata, antonis, Arnaud, JohnArwe, oberger, bblfish, Yves, trackbot, sandro, ericP
14:03:06 <Ruben> *I did*
14:03:32 <Ruben> *he should at least say "bless you" or something*
14:03:34 <Zakim> +??P21
14:03:37 <krp> krp has joined #ldp
14:03:40 <oberger> Hi Arnaud and all
14:05:16 <roger> roger has joined #ldp
14:05:18 <oberger> can't seem to unmute
14:05:28 <nmihindu> Zakim, ??P21 is me
14:05:28 <Zakim> +nmihindu; got it
14:06:00 <oberger> Arnaud, yes, Andrei is probably too busy to participate I'm afraid
14:06:08 <stevebattle> Arnaud, I'm happy to take minutes.
14:06:14 <JohnArwe> zakim, unmute oberger
14:06:14 <Zakim> oberger was not muted, JohnArwe
14:06:25 <oberger> locally muted
14:06:40 <Zakim> +bblfish
14:06:53 <bblfish> hi
14:07:06 <stevebattle> topic: Minutes from last week
14:07:19 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #ldp
#14:07:19 <JohnArwe> topic: minutes from last week
14:07:19 <stevebattle> scribenick: stevebattle
14:07:22 <nmihindu> Zakim, mute me
14:07:22 <Zakim> nmihindu should now be muted
14:07:38 <krp_> krp_ has joined #ldp
14:07:46 <bblfish> what's the URL?
14:07:49 <Zakim> +MHausenblas
14:08:20 <Arnaud> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/meeting/2012-10-15
14:08:35 <bblfish> thanks
14:08:44 <mhausenblas> +1
14:08:51 <Zakim> +??P30
14:09:01 <cygri> cygri has joined #ldp
14:09:04 <BartvanLeeuwen> BartvanLeeuwen has joined #ldp
14:09:07 <bblfish> +1
14:09:09 <JohnArwe> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings is probably a link we should seed each meeting's irc with...
14:09:19 <mhausenblas> Zakim, cyrgi is with me
14:09:19 <Zakim> +cyrgi; got it
14:09:24 <svillata> +1
14:09:38 <krp_> zakim, ??P30 is me
14:09:38 <Zakim> +krp_; got it
14:10:02 <stevebattle> arnaud: minutes approved (with plea that more people read them)
<stevebattle> resolved: minutes from last week approved
14:10:16 <Zakim> +??P32
14:10:24 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, ??p32 is me
14:10:26 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it
<stevebattle> topic: Next 2 meetings
14:10:50 <oberger> Skipping 10.29 and 11.05 teleconferences due to TPAC ?
14:10:55 <Zakim> +EricP
14:10:57 <stevebattle> arnaud: no telecon monday due to f2f. Proposes no call on the following Monday as well.
14:11:03 <bblfish> makes sense for dropping next Teleconf, as people will be at TPAC
14:11:29 <oberger> ericP: woodstock
14:11:31 <JohnArwe2> JohnArwe2 has joined #ldp
14:11:42 <stevebattle> sandro: perhaps we could have an informal optional meeting to review highlights of f2f.
14:11:48 <JohnArwe2> +1 sandro's idea, for those of us w/o travel budgets
14:12:00 <Kalpa> Kalpa has joined #ldp
14:12:01 <bblfish> +1 makes sense for TPAC after party meeting
14:12:02 <svillata> +1 sandro's proposal
14:12:05 <mhausenblas> +1
14:12:08 <rgarcia> +1
14:12:19 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
14:12:19 <Zakim> + +1.617.838.aacc
14:12:30 <oberger> shall we use IRC during the F2F ?
14:12:35 <Yves> yes
14:12:41 <nmihindu> +1
14:12:42 <oberger> i.e. will there be network on location ?
14:12:52 <Yves> ooberger, yes
14:12:57 <Yves> s/oo/o/
14:12:58 <stevebattle> arnaud: Agreed. skip 10/29/12, following meeting is catch-up.
14:12:58 <bblfish> Proposal: skip next meeting, and have informal meeting after TPAC
14:13:32 <bblfish> ( can't remember how to accept a proposal )
14:12:32 <bblfish> Resolved: skip next meeting, and have informal meeting after TPAC
14:13:42 <JohnArwe2> topic: F2F
14:13:45 <stevebattle> arnaud: One person is listed as participant but hasn't registered. No more room left, because observers have been accepted.
14:14:13 <JohnArwe2> oct 29 cancelled, nov 5 will be recap of tpac f2f
14:15:11 <stevebattle> arnaud: draft agenda is available. Crux of work is to go through the issues. Have people reviewed agenda?
14:16:40 <oberger> still muted, sorry
14:16:41 <stevebattle> issues follow naturally from use-cases
14:16:56 <oberger> I meant at the F2F
14:18:08 <JohnArwe> JohnArwe has joined #ldp
14:18:08 <stevebattle> sandro: likes to hear people explain use-cases in person.
14:18:11 <JohnArwe> we will need to update http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1 with call-in details prior to nov 1
14:18:43 <oberger> sandro: +1
14:19:03 <stevebattle> arnaud: same dial-in number or not?
14:19:32 <stevebattle> sandro: Probably same number but maybe conference code. Will look into it today.
14:20:30 <stevebattle> arnaud: someone should add the information to the wiki.
14:20:46 <stevebattle> topic: Actions
14:21:14 <JohnArwe> JohnArwe has joined #ldp
14:21:22 <stevebattle> mhausenblas: I will complete the sdshare review by f2f
14:22:16 <stevebattle> stevebattle: I'll change ucr terminology this week.
14:22:56 <Zakim> +Kalpa
<stevebattle> topic: Issues
<stevebattle> subtopic: Raised Issues
14:23:07 <oberger> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/25
14:23:21 <oberger> ">eak aggregation and strong composition in containers"
14:23:25 <oberger> "Weak aggregation and strong composition in containers"
14:24:59 <bblfish> q+
14:25:58 <JohnArwe> JohnArwe has joined #ldp
14:26:00 <JohnArwe> +1 open as an issue - important that we are clear on it regardless of resolution
14:26:04 <stevebattle> stevebattle: explains aggregation is a very long winded way.
14:26:31 <stevebattle> henry: don't think we should have restrictions on URIs being built in this way.
14:26:51 <oberger> shall we open it then ? ;)
14:27:49 <stevebattle> arnaud: Open issue 25.
<stevebattle> Resolved: Open Issue-25
14:28:01 <oberger> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/26
14:28:30 <stevebattle> Roger: I have opened my first w3c issue
#14:28:44 <oberger> ISSUE-26: creation model for LDP
14:28:45 <trackbot> ISSUE-26 creation model for LDP notes added
14:29:00 <oberger> oops... should not copy-paste as such I guess
14:29:40 <stevebattle> roger: Issue 26 creation model for LDP. There are many ways this might happen e.g. forms on the web.
14:29:50 <stevebattle> q+
14:29:51 <JohnArwe> fine to open 26; I would observe that the draft does not REQUIRE that the server uses all the POSTed triples, it follows HTTP by treating the POST request body as input used to create a resource.  often they will have the same type, but I don't see that as required.
14:30:04 <bblfish> q-
14:30:41 <stevebattle> q-
14:31:07 <stevebattle> arnaud: no objections. Open issue 26.
<stevebattle> Resolved: Open Issue-26
14:31:23 <oberger> trackbot, reopen ISSUE-26
14:31:23 <trackbot> ISSUE-26 creation model for LDP re-opened
14:31:40 <oberger> trackbot, reopen ISSUE-25
14:31:40 <trackbot> ISSUE-25 Weak aggregation and strong composition in containers re-opened
14:31:58 <bblfish> Issue-8?
14:31:58 <trackbot> ISSUE-8 -- Better define or just not use the "Basic profile" terminology -- pending review
14:31:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/8
14:32:25 <oberger> YES
14:32:45 <stevebattle> subtopic: One issue pending review: issue-8
14:32:45 <stevebattle> can we close this? all agree that we can close this?
14:32:54 <stevebattle> henry: has a small swap space.
14:33:15 <bblfish> makes sense
14:33:19 <oberger> as a submitter, I'm satisfied :-)
14:33:23 <bblfish> I don't ahve a problem
14:33:31 <stevebattle> s/henry/bblfish/
14:34:01 <oberger> yes, still muted
14:34:03 <oberger> as a submitter, I'm satisfied :-)
14:34:07 <oberger> let's close it
14:34:16 <stevebattle> arnaud: everybody is satisfied.
<stevebattle> Resolved: Close Issue-8
14:34:20 <oberger> close ISSUE-8
14:34:21 <trackbot> ISSUE-8 Better define or just not use the "Basic profile" terminology closed
14:34:42 <JohnArwe> JohnArwe has joined #ldp
14:34:49 <stevebattle> topic: LDP Specification
14:35:05 <oberger> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/hg/ldp.html
14:35:27 <stevebattle> arnaud: Open issues have been added. Do we agree that we can publish this as the first *public* working draft?
14:36:28 <bblfish> +1
14:36:34 <stevebattle> +1
14:36:37 <oberger> +1
14:36:39 <Arnaud> +1
14:36:41 <ericP> +1
14:36:43 <Ruben> +1
14:36:43 <Yves> +1
14:36:57 <roger> +1
14:36:57 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
14:36:59 <krp_> +1
14:37:01 <rgarcia> +1
14:37:08 <nmihindu> +1
14:37:10 <antonis> +1
14:37:13 <Kalpa> +1
14:37:24 <mhausenblas> +1
14:37:30 <oberger> yay
14:37:42 <JohnArwe> JohnArwe has joined #ldp
14:37:42 <ericP> +yay
14:37:42 <mhausenblas> \o/
14:37:49 <stevebattle> arnaud: Unanimous (+15) resolved!
14:37:53 <svillata> +1
<stevebattle> Resolved: Publish current editor's draft as our First Public Working Draft
14:38:18 <stevebattle> topic: Use-Cases and Requirements document
14:38:27 <oberger> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Use_Cases_And_Requirements
14:39:44 <oberger> we *lack* diagrams
14:40:20 <mhausenblas> Michael: hmmm, what would the purpose of the primer be?
14:40:32 <mhausenblas> Michael: I fear a bit the flood of related docs we have in RDF spec land
14:40:46 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+
14:40:53 <oberger> chainsaw in the background ? ;)
14:40:54 <mhausenblas> Michael: Primer in which sense? Like in http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/ … or?
14:41:10 <stevebattle> stevebattle: proposes move examples to primer.
14:41:50 <ericP> agenda+ how many folks will dial in to the F2F?
14:42:01 <stevebattle> arnaud: The descriptions seem to imply a solution, maybe too much analysis.
14:42:12 <ericP> q+
14:42:33 <Arnaud> ack ashok
14:42:35 <JohnArwe> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.10.22
14:43:03 <JohnArwe> I am high probability to dial in (early riser).
14:43:06 <ericP> q+ to say that it's our (WG's) discretion to slice up the info into docs. creating a Primer will provide a nice resting place for Steve's investment
14:43:10 <stevebattle> ashok_Malhotra: Would like to see a primer. Typically an afterthought.
14:43:13 <Arnaud> ack eric
14:43:13 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that it's our (WG's) discretion to slice up the info into docs. creating a Primer will provide a nice resting place for Steve's investment
14:43:42 <stevebattle> q+
14:44:07 <Arnaud> ack steve
14:45:10 <stevebattle> arnaud: I'd like stevebattle to create a new home for the examples.
14:45:13 <stevebattle> q+
14:45:50 <Arnaud> ack steve
14:46:42 <JohnArwe2> JohnArwe2 has joined #ldp
14:47:31 <stevebattle> stevebattle: proposes that we leave issues in for now.
14:48:04 <stevebattle> arnaud: Should we call this the 'primer' for now?
14:48:45 <JohnArwe2> +1 examples
14:48:48 <bblfish> +1
14:48:58 <stevebattle> Ashok_Malhotra: I'm more comfortable with "Examples".
14:49:07 <stevebattle> +1
14:49:13 <svillata> +1
14:49:17 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
14:49:55 <stevebattle> arnaud: We have agreement on "Examples"
<stevebattle> Resolved: Create a new document for "Examples"
14:50:50 <stevebattle> arnaud: Another point on the UCR. We need to review document carefully.
14:50:53 <stevebattle> q+
14:51:30 <oberger> what we need is to fill the "Scope and Motivation"  section ?
14:52:20 <Arnaud> ack steve
14:53:13 <stevebattle> arnaud: Issues like e.g. authorization may not be on our agenda.
14:54:08 <bblfish> I think we should wait for TPAC
14:54:09 <stevebattle> arnaud: Do people agree?
14:54:10 <oberger> again : what we need is to fill the "Scope and Motivation"  section ? who may draft it ?
14:54:22 <Arnaud> q?
14:55:18 <mhausenblas> q+
14:55:19 <mhausenblas> q?
14:55:29 <mhausenblas> ack me
14:55:35 <stevebattle> arnaud: We should all decide that all use-cases are in/out-of scope.
14:56:07 <stevebattle> mhasenblas: We should err on the side of conservatism.
14:56:11 <JohnArwe2> maybe it's the cell connection, but I think arnaud and I are in violent agreement.
14:56:28 <stevebattle> s/mhasenblas/hausenblas/
14:56:50 <stevebattle> +1
14:57:29 <stevebattle> mhasenblas: We shouldn't try to boil the ocean.
14:57:48 <stevebattle> s/mhasenblas/hausenblas/
14:58:03 <bblfish> q+
14:58:06 <bblfish> q?
14:58:14 <stevebattle> q+
14:58:32 <JohnArwe2> I'm not convinced that use case is exactly the right granularity.  it's a viable coarse-grained filter for sure.  but I can also see  that a very beautiful use case might mention (perhaps in passing) words that could be read to drive a requirement that we have (existing) consensus as being out of scope.
14:59:17 <mhausenblas> q?
14:59:57 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
15:00:24 <stevebattle> bblfish: We'll work on this at TPAC.
15:00:44 <stevebattle> ericP: How many people will be dialing in for TPAC?
15:01:29 <stevebattle> arnaud: People - make sure wiki is up-to-date.
15:01:32 <JohnArwe2> ...in the end, any natural language formulation will be ambiguous for any determined reader.  A relatively complete job might require enumerating all requirements that members can see being -potentially- elicited by each use case, de-dup'ing that list, and then one by one getting consensus on in/out.  That sounds painful, but good jobs often are.
15:02:11 <bblfish> My argument was just to agree with arnaud and michel for a half way position, since the user stories are part of the dreams of the community and their reasons for wanting to participate
15:02:27 <stevebattle> stevebattle: user stories provide the motivation. The scope may be narrower.
15:02:55 <stevebattle> And it's OK to capture use-cases and mark them as out of scope.
15:03:07 <oberger> s/moon/mars/
15:03:25 <bblfish> q?
15:03:27 <stevebattle> arnaud: The LDP isn't a mission to the moon.
15:03:28 <stevebattle> q-
15:03:47 <Zakim> - +1.617.838.aacc
15:04:05 <stevebattle> bblfish: We should link the use-cases to the spec to see how they tie-up.
15:04:38 <stevebattle> arnaud: Please review the UCR.
15:04:45 <Zakim> -bblfish
15:04:46 <BartvanLeeuwen> bye, see you next week
15:04:46 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:04:47 <Zakim> - +44.208.573.aabb
15:04:47 <stevebattle> arnaud: adjourned
15:04:48 <Zakim> -MHausenblas
15:04:48 <Zakim> -antonis
15:04:48 <oberger> see ya in Lyon
15:04:49 <Zakim> -Ruben
15:04:51 <Zakim> -svillata
15:04:52 <Ruben> Ruben has left #ldp
15:04:52 <Zakim> -rgarcia
15:04:52 <Zakim> -Yves
15:04:54 <Zakim> -BartvanLeeuwen
15:04:54 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
15:04:57 <antonis> bye
15:04:58 <oberger> yes
15:05:01 <Zakim> -JohnArwe
15:05:01 <stevebattle> bye
15:05:05 <Zakim> -Arnaud
15:05:06 <Zakim> -EricP
15:05:08 <Zakim> -nmihindu
15:05:09 <Zakim> -krp_
15:05:11 <Zakim> -Kalpa
15:05:14 <oberger> Arnaud, still muted in my VOIP software
15:05:25 <Arnaud> it's ok, I understand
15:05:30 <oberger> but could be calling you with regular phone number
15:05:44 <Arnaud> do you have any idea for a restaurant for dinner on Thursday?
15:05:45 <Zakim> -oberger
15:05:49 <oberger> oh
15:05:50 <Kalpa> Kalpa has left #ldp
15:05:53 <stevebattle> So what's the magic sauce to wrap-up the minutes?
15:06:02 <oberger> Arnaud, not really
15:06:15 <oberger> I've not lived in Lyon for the last 15 years at least ;)
15:06:22 <Arnaud> ok, so we'll need to figure this out next week
15:07:06 <Arnaud> stevebattle: this is it, nothing else to do, I will take it from there
15:07:07 <oberger> http://mmmm.free.fr/scripts/script_liste_departement.php?dept=69 could provide good guidance
15:07:12 <oberger> but no waranty
15:07:26 <stevebattle> thanks, bye.
15:07:27 <Arnaud> ok, thanks
15:07:42 <Arnaud> trackbot, ends meeting
15:07:42 <trackbot> Sorry, Arnaud, I don't understand 'trackbot, ends meeting'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
15:07:49 <Zakim> -SteveBattle
15:07:50 <Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
15:07:50 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:07:50 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended
15:07:50 <Zakim> Attendees were Arnaud, rgarcia, oberger, +1.845.235.aaaa, JohnArwe, Ruben, Sandro, Ashok_Malhotra, SteveBattle, antonis, +44.208.573.aabb, svillata, Yves, nmihindu, bblfish,
15:07:50 <Zakim> ... MHausenblas, cyrgi, krp_, BartvanLeeuwen, EricP, +1.617.838.aacc, Kalpa
15:07:50 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
15:07:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:07:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/22-ldp-minutes.html trackbot
15:07:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:07:59 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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