Chatlog 2012-10-01

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13:57:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ldp
13:57:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/01-ldp-irc
13:57:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:57:59 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ldp
13:58:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP
13:58:01 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see SW_LDP()10:00AM already started
13:58:02 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
13:58:02 <trackbot> Date: 01 October 2012
13:58:15 <gavinc> Zakim, who is here?
13:58:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see +329331aaaa, +1.707.861.aabb
13:58:15 <SteveS> SteveS has joined #ldp
13:58:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see SteveS, Zakim, RRSAgent, Ruben1, krp, Arnaud, svillata, nmihindu, gavinc, bblfish, betehess, trackbot, ericP, Yves, sandro
13:58:22 <gavinc> Zakim, aabb is me
13:58:30 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
13:58:36 <Ruben1> Ruben1 has left #ldp
13:58:38 <Ruben1> Ruben1 has joined #ldp
13:58:46 <Ruben> Ruben has joined #ldp
13:58:58 <Ruben> zakim, aaaa is me
13:58:58 <Zakim> +Ruben; got it
13:59:15 <Ruben> zakim, mute me
13:59:15 <Zakim> Ruben should now be muted
13:59:22 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #ldp
13:59:33 <Zakim> +??P4
13:59:49 <svillata> Zakim, ??P4 is me
13:59:49 <Zakim> +svillata; got it
13:59:51 <SteveBattle> SteveBattle has joined #ldp
13:59:53 <Zakim> + +1.919.306.aacc
13:59:58 <Ashok_Malhotra> Ashok_Malhotra has joined #ldp
14:00:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:00:19 <SteveS> zakim, .aacc is me
14:00:22 <Zakim> sorry, SteveS, I do not recognize a party named '.aacc'
14:00:22 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
14:00:27 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:00:35 <AndyS> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
14:00:36 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aadd
14:00:39 <Zakim> sorry, AndyS, I do not recognize a party named '[IPCaller]'
14:00:40 <Zakim> + +1.510.206.aaee
14:00:55 <Zakim> + +1.510.698.aaff
14:00:57 <SteveS> zakim, 1.919.306.aacc is me
14:01:01 <Zakim> sorry, SteveS, I do not recognize a party named '1.919.306.aacc'
14:01:13 <dret> dret has joined #LDP
14:01:14 <nmihindu> nmihindu has joined #ldp
14:01:45 <Zakim> + +44.754.550.aagg
14:01:48 <bblfish> zakim, who is here?
14:01:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ruben (muted), gavinc, svillata, +1.919.306.aacc, AndyS, +1.408.996.aadd, +1.510.206.aaee, +1.510.698.aaff, +44.754.550.aagg
14:01:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see nmihindu, dret, Ashok_Malhotra, SteveBattle, AndyS, Ruben, SteveS, Zakim, RRSAgent, krp, Arnaud, svillata, gavinc, bblfish, betehess, trackbot, ericP, Yves, sandro
14:01:57 <cygri> cygri has joined #ldp
14:02:07 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
14:02:09 <cygri> zakim, code?
14:02:09 <Zakim> the conference code is 53794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), cygri
14:02:15 <rgarcia> rgarcia has joined #LDP
14:02:23 <dret> zakim, +1.510.206.aaee is me
14:02:23 <Zakim> +dret; got it
14:02:24 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
14:02:27 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
14:02:27 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
14:02:28 <bblfish> zakim, aaff is me
14:02:28 <Zakim> +bblfish; got it
14:02:43 <bblfish> ( zakim is forgetful from time to time it seems )
14:02:58 <Zakim> +EricP
14:03:07 <SteveS> zakim, aacc is me
14:03:17 <Zakim> +SteveS; got it
14:03:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:03:42 <rgarcia> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:03:42 <Zakim> +rgarcia; got it
14:03:45 <Zakim> +??P24
14:03:48 <Zakim> + +1.617.324.aahh
14:04:04 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:04:23 <MacTed> MacTed has joined #ldp
14:04:46 <andras> andras has joined #ldp
14:05:11 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
14:05:59 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
14:05:59 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
14:06:02 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
14:06:02 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
14:07:20 <andras> zakim, who's here?
14:07:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ruben (muted), gavinc, svillata, SteveS, AndyS, +1.408.996.aadd, dret, bblfish, +44.754.550.aagg, Ashok_Malhotra, cygri, EricP, rgarcia, ??P24, Yves, Sandro,
14:07:24 <Zakim> ... MacTed (muted)
14:07:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see andras, MacTed, rgarcia, cygri, nmihindu, dret, Ashok_Malhotra, SteveBattle, AndyS, Ruben, SteveS, Zakim, RRSAgent, krp, Arnaud, svillata, gavinc, bblfish, betehess,
14:07:24 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP, Yves, sandro
14:08:52 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
14:09:42 <nmihindu_> nmihindu_ has joined #ldp
14:10:01 <andras> zakim, ??P24 may be andras
14:10:01 <Zakim> +andras; got it
14:10:30 <bblfish> I think the TPAC form is a bit confusing and has problems
14:10:48 <Zakim> +??P32
14:11:07 <bblfish> which page?
14:11:18 <krp> zakim, ??P32 is me
14:11:18 <Zakim> +krp; got it
14:11:38 <bblfish> welcome :-)
14:11:43 <rgarcia> I am rgarcia
14:12:41 <rgarcia> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2012May/0008.html
14:12:44 <ericP> sandro: we had a round of introductions at the beginning of the WG. we should point new members at that thread.
14:13:02 <SteveS> +1 to Sept 24 minutes
14:13:31 <ericP> PROPOSED: accept 24 Sept members
14:13:35 <ericP> APPROVED
14:13:42 <ericP> topic: WG F2F
14:14:02 <ericP> Arnaud: we now have a really big room (25 attendees + 10 observers)
14:14:15 <Ashok_Malhotra> s/members/minutes/
14:14:42 <ericP> ... still a discrepency between those planning to attend (wiki) and those registered (wbs registration)
14:14:50 <bblfish> speaking of TPAC there is a WebID & RWW community group now up on the agenda you can come to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/
14:14:51 <ericP> ... note that the rate goes up for later registration
14:15:15 <ericP> topic: Actions
14:15:22 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
14:15:33 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.408.996.aadd (23%), rgarcia (37%), EricP (4%)
14:16:26 <ericP> Arnaud: saw mail from Michael Hausenblas on ACTION-6: Review SDshare 
14:16:31 <ericP> ... sounds like there's progress
14:16:59 <ericP> yves: progress on ACTION-14: Look at tracker config to ensure when an issue is mentioned in an email that the action is updated with the email thread.
14:17:44 <Zakim> +??P34
14:18:04 <ericP> ... tracker should be able to re-scan the mail archives
14:18:10 <SteveBattle> zakim, ??P34 is me
14:18:10 <Zakim> +SteveBattle; got it
14:19:12 <ericP> ericP: re: ACTION-16 Confirm with W3C director that if we use /ns/ldp now, we'll be allowed to change to a different /ns/ later if there's a good reason
14:19:25 <ericP> ... timbl said he wants us to write directly into /ns
14:19:31 <ericP> ACTION-16 CLOSED
14:19:32 <trackbot> ACTION-16 Confirm with W3C director that if we use /ns/ldp now, we'll be allowed to change to a different /ns/ later if there's a good reason. closed
14:20:11 <MacTed> action-15?
14:20:11 <trackbot> ACTION-15 -- Andy Seaborne to provide usecase for Issue-2 -- due 2012-10-01 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:20:11 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/15
14:20:21 <bblfish> you can do close ACTION-16
14:20:47 <bblfish> close ACTION-16
14:20:47 <trackbot> ACTION-16 Confirm with W3C director that if we use /ns/ldp now, we'll be allowed to change to a different /ns/ later if there's a good reason. closed
14:21:18 <SteveS> looks like I saw new words but haven't reviewed
14:21:22 <ericP> AndyS, i've completed ACTION-15 Provide usecase for Issue-2
14:21:26 <AndyS> close ACTION-15
14:21:26 <trackbot> ACTION-15 Provide usecase for Issue-2 closed
14:21:27 <ericP> ACTION-15 CLOSED
14:21:27 <trackbot> ACTION-15 Provide usecase for Issue-2 closed
14:21:57 <AndyS> steve(S|B) -- let me know if you want something different
14:22:31 <ericP> topic: Issues
14:22:59 <ericP> Arnaud: re: ISSUE-7 What operations are permittered on containers and how do they get invoked?
14:23:17 <ericP> SteveS: haven't looked at it in detail
14:23:23 <ericP> ... does it mean HTTP verbs?
14:23:28 <ericP> AndyS: higher-level
14:23:38 <ericP> ... how do i create a container which isn't in another container
14:23:47 <ericP> SteveS: wouldn't have parsed that from the issue
14:24:02 <Zakim> + +44.208.573.aaii
14:24:33 <ericP> ... sounds reasonable though
14:24:59 <ericP> ericP: AndyS, did you want this mean to be in-scope?
14:25:32 <nmihindu_> zakim, who's here?
14:25:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ruben (muted), gavinc, svillata, SteveS, AndyS, +1.408.996.aadd, dret, bblfish, +44.754.550.aagg, Ashok_Malhotra, cygri, EricP, rgarcia, andras, Yves, Sandro,
14:25:35 <Zakim> ... MacTed (muted), krp, SteveBattle, +44.208.573.aaii
14:25:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see nmihindu_, andras, MacTed, rgarcia, cygri, dret, Ashok_Malhotra, SteveBattle, AndyS, Ruben, SteveS, Zakim, RRSAgent, krp, Arnaud, svillata, gavinc, bblfish, betehess,
14:25:36 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP, Yves, sandro
14:25:54 <bblfish> is that not recursive? YOu always start with a root container, and then 
14:26:15 <ericP> AndyS: there isn't sufficient info in the submission to e.g. initialize a container or create a container of containers
14:26:59 <ericP> erik, AtomPub tells you how to interact with containers but does not tell you how to create containers
14:27:04 <ericP> erik: AtomPub tells you how to interact with containers but does not tell you how to create containers
14:27:27 <ericP> ... so there's a spec that does not define this sort of management
14:27:54 <ericP> Arnaud: i see ample fodder for discussion of ISSUE-7
14:27:59 <ericP> ISSUE-7 OPEN
14:28:14 <bblfish> open ISSUE-7
14:28:30 <AndyS> I hope that the UCR will highlight this more via the UC's
14:29:17 <roger> roger has joined #ldp
14:29:18 <SteveBattle> noted :)
14:29:21 <ericP> Arnaud: re: UC&R, i was hesitant to ask you to look for this use case
14:29:25 <MacTed> issue-7?
14:29:25 <trackbot> ISSUE-7 -- What operations are permittered on containers and how do they get invoked? -- open
14:29:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/7
14:29:37 <ericP> ... we can always do it later on. the text on the mailing list is sufficient
14:29:51 <ericP> ... we can add it to the UC&R later
14:30:00 <ericP> AndyS: there's something on the wiki so it won't get lost
14:30:24 <ericP> Arnaud: re: ISSUE-8 Better define or just not use the "Basic profile" terminology
14:30:42 <ericP> ... does "basic profile" convey the right interpretation
14:31:00 <Zakim> -dret
14:31:06 <rgarcia> +1 to change name
14:31:17 <ericP> ... we have a member submission called "Basic Profile"
14:31:21 <Ashok_Malhotra> +1 to change name
14:31:23 <Zakim> +dret
14:31:41 <bblfish> +1 to change name
14:31:50 <SteveBattle> +
14:32:01 <sandro> +1 "Linked Data Platform" was an ad hoc placeholder name -- we should look for ones that might be better.
14:32:12 <ericP> ... workshop attendees weren't keen on sussing out the best name. wanted to go ahead start the WG as LD Profile
14:32:23 <ericP> ... but "Profile" is indeed overloaded
14:32:24 <Arnaud> q?
14:32:33 <SteveBattle> q+
14:33:05 <ericP> SteveS: did we discuss this last week during the ns discussion? thought we decided we'd use "platform"
14:33:23 <ericP> Arnaud: we decided on "ldp", which could mean "platform" or "profile"
14:33:34 <ericP> ... also the ns and the spec name needn't be the same
14:33:35 <Arnaud> q?
14:33:41 <Arnaud> ack steve
14:34:12 <Kalpa> Kalpa has joined #ldp
14:34:18 <ericP> SteveBattle: what's the difference between a "Basic Profile" resource and a regular resource?
14:35:09 <ericP> SteveS: the intent of the member submssion is that BPRs can define their full state via RDF
14:35:11 <SteveBattle> q-
14:35:13 <achille_z> achille_z has joined #ldp
14:35:33 <ericP> Arnaud: let's come back to this later, ideally today
14:36:21 <ericP> ISSUE-8 OPEN
14:36:37 <ericP> topic: Use Cases and Requirements 
14:37:24 <ericP> Arnaud: Erik and I were looking for timelines from the editors
14:37:49 <ericP> ... mhausenblaus wants to step down as editor
14:37:59 <bblfish> this page: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Use_Cases_And_Requirements
14:38:04 <ericP> SteveBattle: should have some text for folks next week
14:38:17 <ericP> ... targeting Mon 29 Oct for a draft
14:38:31 <ericP> ... we've got 7 use cases, about 80% of the way through
14:38:48 <ericP> ... ... identifying use cases
14:39:11 <ericP> ... anyone who's co-editor should go ahead and hack the wiki
14:40:35 <ericP> ... non-co-editors, please coordinate with me before editing the wiki (so we don't do redundant work)
14:41:18 <AndyS> The wiki has an RSS feed which is useful to track changes.
14:41:26 <Arnaud> q?
14:41:43 <ericP> ... i'll mail something later today to point people at the wiki headings
14:42:17 <ericP> ... i would like more editors
14:42:37 <ericP> Arnaud: any volunteers to co-edit UC&R?
14:43:09 <bblfish> I'll be programming the next 3 weeks to implement ldp, so I'd like to concentrate on that. Will send feedback as I come across problems.
14:43:20 <ericP> SteveBattle: go ahead and mail the list if you want to add [and own?] a use case
14:43:49 <ericP> Arnaud: i want to clarify the timeline 'cause people don't want to re-re-review documents
14:44:25 <ericP> SteveBattle: i expect that in the future this will be about monitoring the issues list rather than reviewing documents
14:45:38 <ericP> Arnaud: so there will be text to review on 8 Oct
14:45:55 <ericP> SteveBattle: i expect that we'll be raising issues while writing the spec as well
14:46:59 <ericP> Arnaud: review 8-22 Oct, fixes 22-29 Oct, f2f 29 Oct
14:47:19 <ericP> topic: F2F Agenda
14:48:15 <ericP> Arnaud: i expect to produce a more detailed agenda with time allocations (so we can manage time and give callers target times)
14:49:02 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Agenda_.28draft.29 F2F Agenda
14:49:22 <ericP> Arnaud: at some point we need to generate a test suite. should discuss this at the meeting
14:49:49 <bblfish> +1 for discussing AccessControl at TPAC
14:49:56 <ericP> ... during chartering, we had folks saying strong "yes" and strong "no" about security/access control
14:50:45 <gavinc> WebID has a WG 
14:50:49 <ericP> ... bblfish has been discussing WebID. i think that's one of the techs folks will want to examine
14:50:55 <bblfish> TPAC http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2012/SessionIdeas#WebID_and_RWWeb
14:52:34 <Yves> wednesday is plenary day
14:54:27 <ericP> bblfish: on Wed 31 there are TPAC "Session Ideas", we can demo WebID so folks have some concrete idea of what it does
14:55:17 <ericP> ericP: Sessions are usually breakouts which, iirc, are focused on technology areas rather than particular techs
14:55:52 <ericP> Arnaud: this f2f piggybacks on TPAC, but generally we need a host
14:57:14 <ericP> topic: ISSUE-8
14:57:21 <bblfish> Issue-8?
14:57:21 <trackbot> ISSUE-8 -- Better define or just not use the "Basic profile" terminology -- open
14:57:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/8
14:57:32 <ericP> Arnaud: the spec uses the term "Basic Profile"
14:57:47 <ericP> ... last week we decided the ns name would be "ldp"
14:58:06 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
14:58:06 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
14:58:10 <MacTed> q+
14:58:23 <ericP> ... the spec is uses names like "basic profile resource", "basic profile container"
14:58:24 <SteveS> I propose spec name "Linked Data Platform 1.0"
14:58:36 <AndyS> When I hear it I ask myself "where are the other (non-basic)  profiles"
14:58:38 <Arnaud> q?
14:58:45 <AndyS> +1 to SteveS
14:58:49 <gavinc> +1 to SteveS
14:58:55 <Arnaud> q?
14:58:56 <ericP> Ashok_Malhotra: a "profile" is typically a subset of a large spec space
14:59:10 <rgarcia> +1 to SteveS without version number
14:59:16 <SteveS> can give explanation of why we came up with it, reasons are different than now
14:59:26 <krp> +1 AndyS... profile implies to me that there are others (advanced, intermediate?!)
14:59:51 <ericP> i note that "profile" is defensible given that we have a lot of choices given HTTP and RDF
14:59:59 <bblfish>  ldp: linked data protocol?
14:59:59 <Arnaud> ack macted
15:00:08 <ericP> MacTed: "basic" implies that there's a intermediate and an advanced
15:00:11 <bblfish> q+
15:00:19 <ericP> ... that these are resources with particular characteristics
15:00:20 <gavinc> +q to make proposal 
15:00:23 <Yves> basic might imply simple
15:00:29 <Yves> not mandating an advanced version
15:01:06 <ericP> Arnaud: IBM had a lot of things we wanted to include but whittled them down to the "Basic Profiles" submssion
15:01:15 <ericP> MacTed: does this list still exist
15:01:29 <bblfish> ldp started out from http://open-services.net/
15:01:31 <rgarcia> In that case, it sounds better "simple" than "basic", in the sense that we can have "Complex" specifications over this one
15:01:51 <Arnaud> q?
15:01:59 <ericP> Arnaud: yep, at open http://open-services.net/
15:02:00 <bblfish> q-
15:02:20 <bblfish> what about Linked Data Protocol?
15:02:29 <Arnaud> q?
15:02:43 <Arnaud> q?
15:02:53 <gavinc> PROPOSAL: Name recommendation "Linked Data Platform" with or without a version number
15:03:00 <ericP> bblfish: seems analogous to Atom Pub Protocol
15:03:07 <SteveS> -1 I worry about overloading LDP even within our own WG
15:03:12 <roger> +1 to "Linked Data Protocol"
15:03:34 <dret> liking protocol, but that has a very specific meaning in networking and REST communities
15:03:50 <bblfish> but we do use GET, PUT, POST, DELETE ...
15:03:57 <bblfish> ok
15:04:37 <ericP> protocol? program? procedure? principle? 
15:04:44 <bblfish> paradigm
<Arnaud> Arnaud: We'll leave it at this for now, think about it and next week we'll try to resolve it.
<Arnaud> MEETING ADJOURNED
15:04:48 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
15:04:58 <Zakim> -rgarcia
15:04:59 <Zakim> -bblfish
15:04:59 <Zakim> -Yves
15:05:00 <Zakim> - +44.208.573.aaii
15:05:00 <Zakim> -cygri
15:05:00 <Zakim> -EricP
15:05:01 <Zakim> -gavinc
15:05:02 <Zakim> -SteveS
15:05:03 <Ruben> Ruben has left #ldp
15:05:04 <Zakim> -dret
15:05:06 <Zakim> - +44.754.550.aagg
15:05:08 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:05:10 <Zakim> -MacTed
15:05:12 <Zakim> - +1.408.996.aadd
15:05:14 <Zakim> -andras
15:05:17 <Zakim> -Ruben
15:05:18 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:05:20 <Zakim> -krp
15:05:20 <Arnaud> ack gavinc
15:05:22 <Zakim> -svillata
#15:05:25 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to make proposal
15:05:33 <gavinc> ack me
15:10:16 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, SteveBattle, in SW_LDP()10:00AM
15:10:17 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended
15:10:17 <Zakim> Attendees were +329331aaaa, +1.707.861.aabb, gavinc, Ruben, svillata, +1.919.306.aacc, AndyS, +1.408.996.aadd, +1.510.698.aaff, +44.754.550.aagg, Ashok_Malhotra, dret, cygri,
15:10:17 <Zakim> ... bblfish, EricP, SteveS, rgarcia, +1.617.324.aahh, Sandro, Yves, MacTed, andras, krp, SteveBattle, +44.208.573.aaii
15:15:48 <AndyS> AndyS has left #ldp
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18:45:19 <roger> roger has joined #ldp
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