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14:00:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ldp 14:00:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/17-ldp-irc 14:01:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public 14:01:01 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ldp 14:01:01 <rgarcia> rgarcia has joined #ldp 14:01:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP 14:01:04 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see SW_LDP()10:00AM already started 14:01:04 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference 14:01:04 <trackbot> Date: 17 September 2012 14:01:07 <Zakim> +JohnArwe 14:01:09 <Ruben> Zakim, who is here? 14:01:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P6, dret, [IBM], +329331aaaa, ??P13, Arnaud, JohnArwe 14:01:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see rgarcia, Zakim, RRSAgent, JohnArwe, svillata, Ashok_Malhotra, Ruben, krp, nmihindu, dret, ahaller2, kalpa, Arnaud, antonis, BartvanLeeuwen, betehess, SteveS, 14:01:25 <Zakim> ... stevebattle, oberger, bblfish, ericP, trackbot, Yves, sandro 14:01:31 <Zakim> +Sandro 14:01:33 <Ruben> Zakim, aaaa is me 14:01:41 <Zakim> +bblfish 14:01:45 <Zakim> +Ruben; got it 14:01:49 <MacTed> MacTed has joined #ldp 14:01:55 <SteveS> Zakim, [IBM] is me 14:01:57 <Zakim> +SteveS; got it 14:02:09 <Ruben> zakim, who's here? 14:02:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P6, dret, SteveS, Ruben, ??P13, Arnaud, JohnArwe, Sandro, bblfish 14:02:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see MacTed, rgarcia, Zakim, RRSAgent, JohnArwe, svillata, Ashok_Malhotra, Ruben, krp, nmihindu, dret, ahaller2, kalpa, Arnaud, antonis, BartvanLeeuwen, betehess, SteveS, 14:02:14 <Zakim> ... stevebattle, oberger, bblfish, ericP, trackbot, Yves, sandro 14:02:18 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra 14:02:20 <antonis> zakim, ??p6 is me 14:02:24 <Zakim> +antonis; got it 14:02:29 <Zakim> +??P12 14:02:37 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, ??p12 is me 14:02:37 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it 14:02:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 14:03:17 <Zakim> + +1.512.433.aabb 14:03:38 <rgarcia> zakim, [IPcaller] is me 14:03:38 <Zakim> +rgarcia; got it 14:03:45 <krp> zakim, ??P13 is me 14:03:45 <Zakim> +krp; got it 14:03:59 <Zakim> + +44.117.370.aacc 14:04:22 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software 14:04:27 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 14:04:27 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 14:04:29 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 14:04:29 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 14:04:40 <stevebattle> zakim, +44.117.370.aacc is me 14:04:40 <Zakim> +stevebattle; got it 14:04:51 <Ruben> Zakim, mute me 14:04:51 <Zakim> Ruben should now be muted 14:07:17 <bblfish> hi 14:07:26 <Zakim> +??P27 14:07:43 <Zakim> +Yves 14:08:15 <Ruben> Zakim, who is noisy? 14:08:18 <svillata> Zackin, ??P27 is me 14:08:29 <Zakim> Ruben, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (5%), bblfish (4%), Arnaud (22%), ??P27 (8%) 14:08:41 <svillata> Zakin, ??P27 is me 14:08:56 <svillata> Zakim, ??P27 is me 14:08:56 <Zakim> +svillata; got it 14:10:33 <Zakim> +ericP 14:10:36 <JohnArwe> scribe: johnarwe 14:11:16 <JohnArwe> arnaud: approval of minutes from last week 14:11:30 <SteveS> +1 on minutes from Sept 10 14:11:37 <JohnArwe> ...objections to approving as stated? 14:11:46 <Yves> +1 14:11:49 <JohnArwe> approved w/o objection 14:12:14 <bblfish> q+ 14:12:32 <JohnArwe> arnaud: update wiki page with F2F attendance/not 14:12:53 <bblfish> I added myself and paid. 14:13:24 <bblfish> q- 14:13:27 <JohnArwe> arnaud: room size based on registered attendees, so in our interest to pre-reg 14:13:49 <JohnArwe> topic: action items 14:14:22 <JohnArwe> arnaud: last week closed issue on serialization, created action on editors to draft as decided 14:14:32 <JohnArwe> ...no open issues. 14:14:56 <JohnArwe> topic: sparql graph store protocol, overview by steve speicer 14:15:11 <JohnArwe> s/speicer/speicher/ 14:15:42 <Zakim> -ericP 14:16:05 <JohnArwe> steves: expose graph store via http protocol 14:16:21 <JohnArwe> ... stated goals different 14:16:26 <Zakim> +ericP 14:16:43 <JohnArwe> ... difficult to align if one starts from stated goals 14:17:23 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #ldp 14:17:28 <JohnArwe> ... OTOH, based on submission, possible that LDP impls could use graph stores as back end(s) 14:18:09 <Zakim> +mhausenblas 14:18:28 <JohnArwe> ... GSP requires 1 of 3 formats if request omits Accept header. LDP requires Turtle only, so gap. 14:18:30 <mhausenblas> Michael: Sorry for being late, prev meeting took longer than expected 14:18:45 <bblfish> this I suppose http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/ 14:19:21 <JohnArwe> ... GSP wording of POST says it's a merge, LDP says it depends on the resource - BP resource = undefined, BP container = creating new resource and adding new resource's URI to the container 14:20:19 <ericP> q+ if squinting would get us test-case compatibility 14:20:23 <ericP> q+ to ask if squinting would get us test-case compatibility 14:20:30 <JohnArwe> ... POSTing to graph store URI = add new graph to graph store, at uri assigned by GS. No definition of semantics of GET on GS URI. 14:20:56 <JohnArwe> ... "squinting" says some similarities at least. 14:21:45 <JohnArwe> ericp: sparql WG issue - does saying that POST means append "force the hand" of implementations not claiming to be a GS. 14:23:55 <JohnArwe> ...e.g. append could be notional, whole bunch of triples show up (new membership in container, new resource) others change (last page != nil). *Could* say that GSP applies to resources created (e.g. asset in submission ex), others LDBP containers, and GSP does not control what happens in LDBP containers. Only way I can see claiming conformance to both in single impl. 14:24:16 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+ 14:24:27 <Arnaud> ack ericp 14:24:27 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if squinting would get us test-case compatibility 14:24:42 <JohnArwe> who is speaking about sparql impl? 14:24:43 <dret> q+ 14:24:49 <Arnaud> ack ashok 14:25:33 <JohnArwe> ashok: should we be thinking about how to align them? 14:25:47 <sandro> q? 14:25:53 <JohnArwe> ericp: could parameterize GSP, so there's an append type of resource 14:25:58 <sandro> q+ to talk about procedure 14:26:50 <JohnArwe> arnaud: GSP is in Last Call, what is sense from WG on whether it is likely to proceed vs WG being eager to make changes, [implication: as alignment might require]? 14:28:05 <Arnaud> ack dret 14:28:07 <JohnArwe> ericp: no time to waste, expect Rec by end of year. WG added language to narrow scope down to SPARQL only, not general HTTP access to RDF. If LDP WG thinks GSP is harmful to the Web, LDP would have to object. Spec might well die if that happened. 14:28:10 <sandro> q- 14:28:24 <ericP> s/ericp:/sandro:/ 14:29:23 <ericP> q+ to talk about sparql service description 14:29:56 <JohnArwe> dret: any problem separating them cleanly from a rest perspective, so an implementation could offer one link for each protocol? that the way to do it from REST perspective. "Home" resource, "dispatch" with 1 link for GSP, 1 for LDP. 14:29:57 <Arnaud> ack ericp 14:29:57 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to talk about sparql service description 14:29:58 <bblfish> q+ on home page 14:30:01 <JohnArwe> sandro: could work 14:30:13 <SteveS> q+ 14:30:56 <cygri> cygri has joined #ldp 14:31:11 <JohnArwe> ericp: service desc could differentiate the resources it owns/manages. Not sure if I can say I have a GS if only some of its resources adhere to GSP. 14:31:11 <Arnaud> ack bblfish 14:31:11 <Zakim> bblfish, you wanted to comment on home page 14:31:16 <cygri> zakim, i'm with mhausenblas 14:31:16 <Zakim> +cygri; got it 14:31:28 <dret> general home document work: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-json-home/ (probably will be extended to cover XML as well) 14:32:37 <Zakim> - +1.512.433.aabb 14:32:40 <JohnArwe> bblfish: (henry story) home page work reminds one of atom's service page discussion, resource should describe itself. 14:33:01 <JohnArwe> sandro: that is how sparql serv desc works, but that only applies to sparql endpt not to member resources 14:33:15 <JohnArwe> henry: link header for metadata? 14:33:50 <dret> Atom(Pub) can use 'service' links so that any interaction with a Atom feed or entry can link to the AtomPub service document. 14:33:52 <Arnaud> ack steves 14:34:11 <JohnArwe> sandro: would work, no one mandating it tho. sparql WG chose not to define that, they wanted something simple and this aspect was an add-on they had little experience with, not core to their work. 14:35:03 <dret> resources could link to both service documents, if they are served by a container implementing two access models. clients then could choose which one to follow. 14:35:34 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #ldp 14:36:53 <sandro> technical solution could just be providing RDF type information for the resource, using an HTTP Link header with an rdf:type property. 14:36:55 <JohnArwe> steves: LDP container proposal was one of several. did discuss link header(s) too, open if we wanted to change it. not sure what it would look like if mixed with GSP. Could highlight as indep way to access same resources, could define a mapping from LDP to GSP, could make some changes in LDP spec to improve alignment, perhaps recommend how POST works if an impl wants to offer both protocols. 14:37:20 <JohnArwe> sandro: this WG could suggest they add headers/whatever, w/in LDP's scope 14:37:44 <oberger> oberger has joined #ldp 14:37:46 <JohnArwe> arnaud: any opinions on whether or not LDP should make any comments on GSP? 14:38:14 <sandro> AndyS, you here? 14:38:15 <bblfish> perhaps we should leave this issue open. I need to look at it more carefully myself ot understand the issue 14:38:42 <JohnArwe> sandro: no strong need to hold GSP up 14:38:52 <JohnArwe> ...others might see such a need, if so should speak up 14:39:02 <Zakim> -ericP 14:39:03 <JohnArwe> steves: no reason to hold them up 14:39:16 <bblfish> perhaps just put a summary on the wiki 14:39:19 <bblfish> so we can refer to it 14:39:31 <Zakim> +ericP 14:39:34 <JohnArwe> arnaud: thanks steve for investigating. fulfilled your part. 14:40:26 <JohnArwe> s/ ot / to / 14:40:57 <JohnArwe> action: arnaud to add topic on wiki on LDP vs GSP on home page 14:40:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-13 - Add topic on wiki on LDP vs GSP on home page [on Arnaud Le Hors - due 2012-09-24]. 14:41:06 <bblfish> wow ACTION 13 :-) 14:41:22 <JohnArwe> * touch typists are dangerous ;-) 14:41:47 <JohnArwe> trackbot, close action-4 14:41:47 <trackbot> ACTION-4 Review SPARQL Graph Store Protocol and suggest how we should move forward with it closed 14:42:11 <JohnArwe> bblfish: consent to close action, can always re-open later if new material comes up 14:42:32 <JohnArwe> topic: use case document 14:42:59 <JohnArwe> mike and ram working on document 14:43:05 <JohnArwe> topic: spec draft 14:43:36 <JohnArwe> steves: working on tool setup, pretty much done. will not make any changes aside from things required to fit it into the template. 14:43:57 <JohnArwe> arnaud: you reviewed timeline, ok with it? 14:44:00 <JohnArwe> steves: y 14:44:14 <JohnArwe> topic: WG time line 14:45:46 <mhausenblas> +1 to the timeline 14:45:47 <dret> i will add it to the wiki 14:45:53 <JohnArwe> arnaud: chairs took action last time to create time line, went through the right to left schedule exercise, posted. 14:45:59 <JohnArwe> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Main_Page#Timeline 14:46:19 <dret> give me a minute, i'll update it now that we have approved it 14:46:19 <JohnArwe> need to update that link 14:46:54 <JohnArwe> steves: tracker is not linking in email activity, e.g. on 11 I do not see discussion threads. is that a setup problem? 14:48:10 <JohnArwe> trackbot, close action-11 14:48:10 <trackbot> ACTION-11 Define a timeline for working on the editor's draft and the FPWD (chairs action, i.e. Arnaud and dret) closed 14:48:53 <JohnArwe> action on yves to Look at tracker config to ensure when an issue is mentioned in an email that the action is updated with the email thread. 14:48:53 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - on 14:49:08 <JohnArwe> action yves to Look at tracker config to ensure when an issue is mentioned in an email that the action is updated with the email thread. 14:49:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-14 - Look at tracker config to ensure when an issue is mentioned in an email that the action is updated with the email thread. [on Yves Lafon - due 2012-09-24]. 14:49:51 <Arnaud> q? 14:50:16 <JohnArwe> topic: back to use cases and requirements document 14:50:43 <JohnArwe> arnaud: steve battle on today; WG looked at content as of last week, liked direction 14:51:20 <bblfish> do we have a link? 14:51:46 <JohnArwe> battle: got some feedback from steves, working on terminology consistency, took first user story (social contact infor), extracted use case (GET), raised some issues 14:51:54 <Arnaud> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Use_Cases_And_Requirements 14:52:12 <bblfish> perhaps this in particular: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Use_Cases_And_Requirements#Use_Cases ? 14:52:26 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra 14:52:44 <dret> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Main_Page#Timeline is updated now (ACTION-11) 14:52:57 <JohnArwe> battle: need to clarify if resources are things or representations of things, i.e. do we need 303 redirect or not 14:53:22 <Zakim> -ericP 14:53:53 <JohnArwe> arnaud: as you work on doc, as you see issues, please raise them into tracker system (best) or email list. 14:54:00 <Zakim> +ericP 14:54:10 <Zakim> -BartvanLeeuwen 14:54:39 <dret> if there's no discussion on the email list, then we see them during the call and will address them in the meeting. 14:55:07 <dret> s/them/open issues and actions/ 14:56:02 <JohnArwe> arnaud: unrealistic perhaps to have public working draft by end of Oct for f2f, but would like at least an editor's draft. 14:56:13 <JohnArwe> battle: imp thing is to label/number use cases 14:56:20 <bblfish> q+ on TPAC question 14:56:35 <Arnaud> ack bblfish 14:56:35 <Zakim> bblfish, you wanted to comment on TPAC question 14:58:06 <bblfish> bblfish: yes, call for sponsorship for WebID and RWW Community group for 1 day $1000 14:59:03 <Zakim> -ericP 14:59:36 <Arnaud> q? 14:59:51 <SteveS> When will our TPAC agenda be drafted/set? Be good to reserve time for UCR finalizing and spec issue resolution 14:59:59 <ericP> €1000 instead of $1000, iirc 15:00:13 <ericP> (from what Henry said) 15:00:14 <bblfish> ah yes. thanks :-) 15:01:00 <bblfish> 1352.74 euros exactly 15:01:15 <Arnaud> q? 15:01:26 <bblfish> Will send mail to mailing list on the topic of webid and ldp 15:01:35 <Zakim> -mhausenblas 15:01:37 <Zakim> -MacTed 15:01:37 <Zakim> -SteveS 15:01:38 <Zakim> -Ruben 15:01:40 <Zakim> -dret 15:01:40 <Zakim> -bblfish 15:01:41 <Zakim> -antonis 15:01:42 <Ruben> Ruben has left #ldp 15:01:42 <Zakim> -rgarcia 15:01:44 <Zakim> -krp 15:02:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/17-ldp-minutes.html Yves 15:02:11 <Zakim> -Yves 15:02:12 <kalpa> kalpa has left #ldp 15:02:23 <Zakim> -svillata 15:02:26 <Zakim> -Sandro 15:02:28 <Zakim> -Arnaud 15:02:29 <Zakim> -stevebattle 15:02:32 <Zakim> -JohnArwe 15:02:34 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended 15:02:34 <Zakim> Attendees were dret, +329331aaaa, Arnaud, JohnArwe, Sandro, bblfish, Ruben, SteveS, Ashok_Malhotra, antonis, BartvanLeeuwen, +1.512.433.aabb, rgarcia, krp, MacTed, stevebattle, 15:02:34 <Zakim> ... Yves, svillata, ericP, mhausenblas, cygri 15:02:36 <dret> anybody know's how to create the commonscribe minutes from that? 15:02:48 <svillata> svillata has left #ldp 15:02:48 <JohnArwe> working on common scribe minutes "now" 15:02:56 <JohnArwe> ...once I call into next mtg ;-) 15:03:07 <dret> great, thanks a lot! 15:03:37 <cygri> dret, JohnArwe: The secret is to bookmark this URL and follow the instructions: https://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel/?group=ldp&go=Use+This+Group 15:03:46 <dret> looks like http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Main_Page#Timeline is missing presence information 15:04:05 <dret> thanks, cygri! 15:05:39 <dret> i think that worked wonderfully, so i'll save the results. thanks again cygri and JohnArwe for scribing! 15:05:57 <cygri> yw dret! # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000234