Chatlog 2012-09-17

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14:00:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ldp
14:00:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/17-ldp-irc
14:01:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:01:01 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ldp
14:01:01 <rgarcia> rgarcia has joined #ldp
14:01:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP
14:01:04 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see SW_LDP()10:00AM already started
14:01:04 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
14:01:04 <trackbot> Date: 17 September 2012
14:01:07 <Zakim> +JohnArwe
14:01:09 <Ruben> Zakim, who is here?
14:01:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P6, dret, [IBM], +329331aaaa, ??P13, Arnaud, JohnArwe
14:01:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see rgarcia, Zakim, RRSAgent, JohnArwe, svillata, Ashok_Malhotra, Ruben, krp, nmihindu, dret, ahaller2, kalpa, Arnaud, antonis, BartvanLeeuwen, betehess, SteveS,
14:01:25 <Zakim> ... stevebattle, oberger, bblfish, ericP, trackbot, Yves, sandro
14:01:31 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:01:33 <Ruben> Zakim, aaaa is me
14:01:41 <Zakim> +bblfish
14:01:45 <Zakim> +Ruben; got it
14:01:49 <MacTed> MacTed has joined #ldp
14:01:55 <SteveS> Zakim, [IBM] is me
14:01:57 <Zakim> +SteveS; got it
14:02:09 <Ruben> zakim, who's here?
14:02:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P6, dret, SteveS, Ruben, ??P13, Arnaud, JohnArwe, Sandro, bblfish
14:02:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see MacTed, rgarcia, Zakim, RRSAgent, JohnArwe, svillata, Ashok_Malhotra, Ruben, krp, nmihindu, dret, ahaller2, kalpa, Arnaud, antonis, BartvanLeeuwen, betehess, SteveS,
14:02:14 <Zakim> ... stevebattle, oberger, bblfish, ericP, trackbot, Yves, sandro
14:02:18 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
14:02:20 <antonis> zakim, ??p6 is me
14:02:24 <Zakim> +antonis; got it
14:02:29 <Zakim> +??P12
14:02:37 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, ??p12 is me
14:02:37 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it
14:02:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:03:17 <Zakim> + +1.512.433.aabb
14:03:38 <rgarcia> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:03:38 <Zakim> +rgarcia; got it
14:03:45 <krp> zakim, ??P13 is me
14:03:45 <Zakim> +krp; got it
14:03:59 <Zakim> + +44.117.370.aacc
14:04:22 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
14:04:27 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
14:04:27 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
14:04:29 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
14:04:29 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
14:04:40 <stevebattle> zakim, +44.117.370.aacc is me
14:04:40 <Zakim> +stevebattle; got it
14:04:51 <Ruben> Zakim, mute me
14:04:51 <Zakim> Ruben should now be muted
14:07:17 <bblfish> hi
14:07:26 <Zakim> +??P27
14:07:43 <Zakim> +Yves
14:08:15 <Ruben> Zakim, who is noisy?
14:08:18 <svillata> Zackin, ??P27 is me
14:08:29 <Zakim> Ruben, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (5%), bblfish (4%), Arnaud (22%), ??P27 (8%)
14:08:41 <svillata> Zakin, ??P27 is me
14:08:56 <svillata> Zakim, ??P27 is me
14:08:56 <Zakim> +svillata; got it
14:10:33 <Zakim> +ericP
14:10:36 <JohnArwe> scribe: johnarwe
14:11:16 <JohnArwe> arnaud: approval of minutes from last week
14:11:30 <SteveS> +1 on minutes from Sept 10
14:11:37 <JohnArwe> ...objections to approving as stated?
14:11:46 <Yves> +1
14:11:49 <JohnArwe> approved w/o objection
14:12:14 <bblfish> q+
14:12:32 <JohnArwe> arnaud: update wiki page with F2F attendance/not
14:12:53 <bblfish> I added myself and paid.
14:13:24 <bblfish> q-
14:13:27 <JohnArwe> arnaud: room size based on registered attendees, so in our interest to pre-reg
14:13:49 <JohnArwe> topic: action items
14:14:22 <JohnArwe> arnaud: last week closed issue on serialization, created action on editors to draft as decided
14:14:32 <JohnArwe> ...no open issues.
14:14:56 <JohnArwe> topic: sparql graph store protocol, overview by steve speicer
14:15:11 <JohnArwe> s/speicer/speicher/
14:15:42 <Zakim> -ericP
14:16:05 <JohnArwe> steves: expose graph store via http protocol
14:16:21 <JohnArwe> ... stated goals different
14:16:26 <Zakim> +ericP
14:16:43 <JohnArwe> ... difficult to align if one starts from stated goals
14:17:23 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #ldp
14:17:28 <JohnArwe> ... OTOH, based on submission, possible that LDP impls could use graph stores as back end(s)
14:18:09 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
14:18:28 <JohnArwe> ... GSP requires 1 of 3 formats if request omits Accept header.  LDP requires Turtle only, so gap.
14:18:30 <mhausenblas> Michael: Sorry for being late, prev meeting took longer than expected
14:18:45 <bblfish> this I suppose http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/
14:19:21 <JohnArwe> ... GSP wording of POST says it's a merge, LDP says it depends on the resource - BP resource = undefined, BP container = creating new resource and adding new resource's URI to the container
14:20:19 <ericP> q+ if squinting would get us test-case compatibility
14:20:23 <ericP> q+ to ask if squinting would get us test-case compatibility
14:20:30 <JohnArwe> ... POSTing to graph store URI = add new graph to graph store, at uri assigned by GS.  No definition of semantics of GET on GS URI.
14:20:56 <JohnArwe> ... "squinting" says some similarities at least.
14:21:45 <JohnArwe> ericp: sparql WG issue - does saying that POST means append "force the hand" of implementations not claiming to be a GS.
14:23:55 <JohnArwe> ...e.g. append could be notional, whole bunch of triples show up (new membership in container, new resource) others change (last page != nil).  *Could* say that GSP applies to resources created (e.g. asset in submission ex), others LDBP containers, and GSP does not control what happens in LDBP containers.  Only way I can see claiming conformance to both in single impl.
14:24:16 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+
14:24:27 <Arnaud> ack ericp
14:24:27 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if squinting would get us test-case compatibility
14:24:42 <JohnArwe> who is speaking about sparql impl?
14:24:43 <dret> q+
14:24:49 <Arnaud> ack ashok
14:25:33 <JohnArwe> ashok: should we be thinking about how to align them?
14:25:47 <sandro> q?
14:25:53 <JohnArwe> ericp: could parameterize GSP, so there's an append type of resource
14:25:58 <sandro> q+ to talk about procedure
14:26:50 <JohnArwe> arnaud: GSP is in Last Call, what is sense from WG on whether it is likely to proceed vs WG being eager to make changes, [implication: as alignment might require]?
14:28:05 <Arnaud> ack dret
14:28:07 <JohnArwe> ericp: no time to waste, expect Rec by end of year.  WG added language to narrow scope down to SPARQL only, not general HTTP access to RDF.  If LDP WG thinks GSP is harmful to the Web, LDP would have to object.  Spec might well die if that happened.
14:28:10 <sandro> q-
14:28:24 <ericP> s/ericp:/sandro:/
14:29:23 <ericP> q+ to talk about sparql service description
14:29:56 <JohnArwe> dret: any problem separating them cleanly from a rest perspective, so an implementation could offer one link for each protocol?  that the way to do it from REST perspective.  "Home" resource, "dispatch" with 1 link for GSP, 1 for LDP.
14:29:57 <Arnaud> ack ericp
14:29:57 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to talk about sparql service description
14:29:58 <bblfish> q+ on home page
14:30:01 <JohnArwe> sandro: could work
14:30:13 <SteveS> q+
14:30:56 <cygri> cygri has joined #ldp
14:31:11 <JohnArwe> ericp: service desc could differentiate the resources it owns/manages.  Not sure if I can say I have a GS if only some of its resources adhere to GSP.
14:31:11 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
14:31:11 <Zakim> bblfish, you wanted to comment on home page
14:31:16 <cygri> zakim, i'm with mhausenblas
14:31:16 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
14:31:28 <dret> general home document work: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-json-home/ (probably will be extended to cover XML as well)
14:32:37 <Zakim> - +1.512.433.aabb
14:32:40 <JohnArwe> bblfish: (henry story) home page work reminds one of atom's service page discussion, resource should describe itself.
14:33:01 <JohnArwe> sandro: that is how sparql serv desc works, but that only applies to sparql endpt not to member resources
14:33:15 <JohnArwe> henry: link header for metadata?
14:33:50 <dret> Atom(Pub) can use 'service' links so that any interaction with a Atom feed or entry can link to the AtomPub service document.
14:33:52 <Arnaud> ack steves
14:34:11 <JohnArwe> sandro: would work, no one mandating it tho.  sparql WG chose not to define that, they wanted something simple and this aspect was an add-on they had little experience with, not core to their work.
14:35:03 <dret> resources could link to both service documents, if they are served by a container implementing two access models. clients then could choose which one to follow.
14:35:34 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #ldp
14:36:53 <sandro> technical solution could just be providing RDF type information for the resource, using an HTTP Link header with an rdf:type property.
14:36:55 <JohnArwe> steves: LDP container proposal was one of several.  did discuss link header(s) too, open if we wanted to change it.  not sure what it would look like if mixed with GSP.  Could highlight as indep way to access same resources, could define a mapping from LDP to GSP, could make some changes in LDP spec to improve alignment, perhaps recommend how POST works if an impl wants to offer both protocols.
14:37:20 <JohnArwe> sandro: this WG could suggest they add headers/whatever, w/in LDP's scope
14:37:44 <oberger> oberger has joined #ldp
14:37:46 <JohnArwe> arnaud: any opinions on whether or not LDP should make any comments on GSP?
14:38:14 <sandro> AndyS, you here?
14:38:15 <bblfish> perhaps we should leave this issue open. I need to look at it more carefully myself ot understand the issue
14:38:42 <JohnArwe> sandro: no strong need to hold GSP up
14:38:52 <JohnArwe> ...others might see such a need, if so should speak up
14:39:02 <Zakim> -ericP
14:39:03 <JohnArwe> steves: no reason to hold them up
14:39:16 <bblfish> perhaps just put a summary on the wiki
14:39:19 <bblfish> so we can refer to it
14:39:31 <Zakim> +ericP
14:39:34 <JohnArwe> arnaud: thanks steve for investigating.  fulfilled your part.
14:40:26 <JohnArwe> s/ ot / to /
14:40:57 <JohnArwe> action: arnaud to add topic on wiki on LDP vs GSP on home page
14:40:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-13 - Add topic on wiki on LDP vs GSP on home page [on Arnaud Le Hors - due 2012-09-24].
14:41:06 <bblfish> wow ACTION 13 :-)
14:41:22 <JohnArwe> * touch typists are dangerous ;-)
14:41:47 <JohnArwe> trackbot, close action-4
14:41:47 <trackbot> ACTION-4 Review SPARQL Graph Store Protocol and suggest how we should move forward with it closed
14:42:11 <JohnArwe> bblfish: consent to close action, can always re-open later if new material comes up
14:42:32 <JohnArwe> topic: use case document
14:42:59 <JohnArwe> mike and ram working on document
14:43:05 <JohnArwe> topic: spec draft
14:43:36 <JohnArwe> steves: working on tool setup, pretty much done.  will not make any changes aside from things required to fit it into the template.
14:43:57 <JohnArwe> arnaud: you reviewed timeline, ok with it?
14:44:00 <JohnArwe> steves: y
14:44:14 <JohnArwe> topic: WG time line
14:45:46 <mhausenblas> +1 to the timeline
14:45:47 <dret> i will add it to the wiki
14:45:53 <JohnArwe> arnaud: chairs took action last time to create time line, went through the right to left schedule exercise, posted.
14:45:59 <JohnArwe> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Main_Page#Timeline
14:46:19 <dret> give me a minute, i'll update it now that we have approved it
14:46:19 <JohnArwe> need to update that link
14:46:54 <JohnArwe> steves: tracker is not linking in email activity, e.g. on 11 I do not see discussion threads.  is that a setup problem?
14:48:10 <JohnArwe> trackbot, close action-11
14:48:10 <trackbot> ACTION-11 Define a timeline for working on the editor's draft and the FPWD (chairs action, i.e. Arnaud and dret) closed
14:48:53 <JohnArwe> action on yves to Look at tracker config to ensure when an issue is mentioned in an email that the action is updated with the email thread.
14:48:53 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - on
14:49:08 <JohnArwe> action yves to Look at tracker config to ensure when an issue is mentioned in an email that the action is updated with the email thread.
14:49:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-14 - Look at tracker config to ensure when an issue is mentioned in an email that the action is updated with the email thread. [on Yves Lafon - due 2012-09-24].
14:49:51 <Arnaud> q?
14:50:16 <JohnArwe> topic: back to use cases and requirements document
14:50:43 <JohnArwe> arnaud: steve battle on today; WG looked at content as of last week, liked direction
14:51:20 <bblfish> do we have a link?
14:51:46 <JohnArwe> battle: got some feedback from steves, working on terminology consistency, took first user story (social contact infor), extracted use case (GET), raised some issues
14:51:54 <Arnaud> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Use_Cases_And_Requirements
14:52:12 <bblfish> perhaps this in particular: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Use_Cases_And_Requirements#Use_Cases ?
14:52:26 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
14:52:44 <dret> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Main_Page#Timeline is updated now (ACTION-11)
14:52:57 <JohnArwe> battle: need to clarify if resources are things or representations of things, i.e. do we need 303 redirect or not
14:53:22 <Zakim> -ericP
14:53:53 <JohnArwe> arnaud: as you work on doc, as you see issues, please raise them into tracker system (best) or email list.
14:54:00 <Zakim> +ericP
14:54:10 <Zakim> -BartvanLeeuwen
14:54:39 <dret> if there's no discussion on the email list, then we see them during the call and will address them in the meeting.
14:55:07 <dret> s/them/open issues and actions/
14:56:02 <JohnArwe> arnaud: unrealistic perhaps to have public working draft by end of Oct for f2f, but would like at least an editor's draft.
14:56:13 <JohnArwe> battle: imp thing is to label/number use cases
14:56:20 <bblfish> q+ on TPAC question
14:56:35 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
14:56:35 <Zakim> bblfish, you wanted to comment on TPAC question
14:58:06 <bblfish> bblfish: yes, call for sponsorship for WebID and RWW Community group for 1 day $1000
14:59:03 <Zakim> -ericP
14:59:36 <Arnaud> q?
14:59:51 <SteveS> When will our TPAC agenda be drafted/set? Be good to reserve time for UCR finalizing and spec issue resolution
14:59:59 <ericP> €1000 instead of $1000, iirc
15:00:13 <ericP> (from what Henry said)
15:00:14 <bblfish> ah yes. thanks :-)
15:01:00 <bblfish> 1352.74 euros exactly
15:01:15 <Arnaud> q?
15:01:26 <bblfish> Will send mail to mailing list on the topic of webid and ldp
15:01:35 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
15:01:37 <Zakim> -MacTed
15:01:37 <Zakim> -SteveS
15:01:38 <Zakim> -Ruben
15:01:40 <Zakim> -dret
15:01:40 <Zakim> -bblfish
15:01:41 <Zakim> -antonis
15:01:42 <Ruben> Ruben has left #ldp
15:01:42 <Zakim> -rgarcia
15:01:44 <Zakim> -krp
15:02:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/17-ldp-minutes.html Yves
15:02:11 <Zakim> -Yves
15:02:12 <kalpa> kalpa has left #ldp
15:02:23 <Zakim> -svillata
15:02:26 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:02:28 <Zakim> -Arnaud
15:02:29 <Zakim> -stevebattle
15:02:32 <Zakim> -JohnArwe
15:02:34 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended
15:02:34 <Zakim> Attendees were dret, +329331aaaa, Arnaud, JohnArwe, Sandro, bblfish, Ruben, SteveS, Ashok_Malhotra, antonis, BartvanLeeuwen, +1.512.433.aabb, rgarcia, krp, MacTed, stevebattle,
15:02:34 <Zakim> ... Yves, svillata, ericP, mhausenblas, cygri
15:02:36 <dret> anybody know's how to create the commonscribe minutes from that?
15:02:48 <svillata> svillata has left #ldp
15:02:48 <JohnArwe> working on common scribe minutes "now"
15:02:56 <JohnArwe> ...once I call into next mtg ;-)
15:03:07 <dret> great, thanks a lot!
15:03:37 <cygri> dret, JohnArwe: The secret is to bookmark this URL and follow the instructions: https://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel/?group=ldp&go=Use+This+Group
15:03:46 <dret> looks like http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Main_Page#Timeline is missing presence information
15:04:05 <dret> thanks, cygri!
15:05:39 <dret> i think that worked wonderfully, so i'll save the results. thanks again cygri and JohnArwe for scribing!
15:05:57 <cygri> yw dret!
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