20:59:55 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
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20:59:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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20:59:59 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:59:59 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM already started
21:00:00 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
21:00:00 <trackbot> Date: 20 December 2012
21:00:23 <birtles> birtles has joined #svg
21:00:37 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
21:00:48 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
21:00:48 <Zakim> +ed; got it
21:01:05 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
21:01:11 <birtles> Zakim, IPcaller is me
21:01:11 <Zakim> +birtles; got it
21:01:56 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012OctDec/0063.html
21:02:11 <Zakim> +cabanier
21:03:03 <krit> krit has joined #svg
21:03:18 <krit> zakim, who is on the phone?
21:03:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.415.308.aaaa, ed, birtles, cabanier
21:03:27 <krit> zakim, aaaa is me
21:03:27 <Zakim> +krit; got it
21:04:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
21:04:43 <heycam> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
21:04:43 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
21:05:47 <ed> scribeNick: ed
21:05:52 <ed> chair: heycam
21:05:55 <ed> topic: mask-type
21:06:01 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
21:06:26 <ed> ds: we have mask-* properties, would like to add... ... shorthand function
21:06:42 <krit> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html#mask-property
21:07:26 <ed> cm: would apply to mask element, wheterh the mask content should be interpreted as ...
21:08:00 <cabanier> scribenick: cabanier
21:08:33 <cabanier> heycam: it is a bit confusing if masktype applies to the mask element
21:08:41 <cabanier> … and the things that get masked
21:08:58 <Zakim> +nikos
21:09:12 <Tav> Tav has joined #svg
21:09:26 <cabanier> … what the mask is describing depending on what it's applied to
21:09:55 <cabanier> krit: I would like to have in the short-hand
21:10:08 <Zakim> +Tav
21:10:20 <cabanier> … masktype should be consistent
21:10:37 <cabanier> ,,, the problem is that we have to special case the mask-type
21:10:47 <cabanier> … this means that we can't mask a mask
21:10:53 <cabanier> … in the future
21:11:11 <cabanier> birtles: can't we rename mask-type to mask-source-type?
21:11:43 <cabanier> heycam: so make the one from the shorthand mask-source-type
21:11:50 <cabanier> … or we can rename the other one
21:12:14 <cabanier> krit: that sounds fine with me as well. should we try to make it shorter?
21:12:33 <cabanier> heycam: have the longer one for the one that is used in the shorthand
21:12:41 <cabanier> everyone: that sounds good
21:13:32 <cabanier> resolution: we'll have mask-source-type property as part of the shorthand and leave mask-type property as the one that just applies to the mask element
21:14:09 <cabanier> topic: filter effects feedback
21:14:10 <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Dec/0059.html
21:14:30 <cabanier> heycam: we should have someone to review his comments
21:14:42 <cabanier> krit: I didn't read it yet
21:14:51 <cabanier> heycam: are these new features?
21:15:02 <cabanier> krit: I think they're additions
21:15:57 <cabanier> nikos: angle for dropshadow seems useful
21:16:22 <cabanier> action: Dirk to review filter effects proposal
21:16:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3404 - Review filter effects proposal [on Dirk Schulze - due 2012-12-27].
21:16:52 <cabanier> topic: SVG test suite
21:17:13 <cabanier> heycam: we need a plan so we can migrate the exisitng tests into the new test suite
21:17:27 <cabanier> …and make sure that they're still valid and in the right format
21:17:46 <cabanier> … for a lot of them, we can just split them out
21:18:09 <cabanier> … and make them reftests. The problem is creating the reference
21:18:22 <cabanier> krit: some things like masking is hard to test as a reftest
21:18:40 <cabanier> heycam: yeah. maybe we can do simple paths with raster images
21:18:44 <thorton> thorton has joined #svg
21:19:15 <cabanier> …or we can a couple of manually inspected test for these things
21:20:02 <cabanier> … with reftests, there is always the problem that very basic primitives are hard to write tests for
21:20:15 <cabanier> … maybe we should have visually inspection
21:20:46 <cabanier> krit: yes, at some point we will have to do that
21:20:50 <cabanier> heycam: yes
21:21:18 <cabanier> krit: We should have a day on our F2F to talk just about testing
21:21:31 <cabanier> … testing is very important for the specification
21:22:21 <cabanier> heycam: for our exisitng test, would people object that they are assigned a block of test?
21:22:30 <cabanier> …not for detailed review, but just to check
21:22:40 <cabanier> … and then at a later date, write reftests for those
21:23:42 <cabanier> heycam: we can get started on that while we're in Sydney
21:23:48 <cabanier> krit: yes
21:23:58 <cabanier> … first review and then ref tests
21:24:16 <cabanier> heycam: I will look into what's needed to make the format right
21:24:43 <cabanier> action: heycam to allocate chunks of the test suite for different people to review
21:24:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3405 - Allocate chunks of the test suite for different people to review [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-12-27].
21:26:22 <cabanier> heycam: I would like to know where to put test in the repository
21:26:46 <cabanier> krit: the CSS WG just puts everyting in a folder
21:27:05 <cabanier> … with support for testharnass.js
21:27:40 <cabanier> … you write the test and put it in the same folder as the reftest
21:27:40 <heycam> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/scripttest
21:28:27 <cabanier> action: heycam follow up that scripted tests can go in repository
21:28:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3406 - Follow up that scripted tests can go in repository [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-12-27].
21:29:26 <cabanier> krit: Peter Lins can help us write a real test suite
21:29:38 <cabanier> heycam: yes, we need to figure out how to run shepard
21:29:51 <krit> s/Lins/Linss/
21:37:26 <cabanier> topic: CSS animation of SVG attributes
21:37:52 <cabanier> krit: I restarted the thread on www-style.
21:38:02 <cabanier> …authors would like to use this.
21:38:13 <cabanier> … I will bring it up on the FX tast force
21:38:29 <cabanier> heycam: I'm not surprised that there was no response
21:39:02 <cabanier> … I think it's a difficult topic. It's a major thing
21:39:06 <cabanier> krit:  that might be
21:39:35 <cabanier> … I would like to start with just a couple of properties just as x and y
21:39:41 <cabanier> … to make it easier
21:39:45 <shepazu> q+
21:39:50 <cabanier> heycam: patrick had a list
21:39:58 <cabanier> krit: I saw that
21:40:20 <cabanier> … we still need to figure out with attributes that are used twice
21:40:27 <cabanier> … and we might need new names
21:40:43 <cabanier> … We should start by agreeing with new names
21:40:44 <TabAtkins> That info was laid out in one fo the old threads.
21:40:57 <cabanier> shepazu: I don't agree that we need new name
21:41:15 <heycam> TabAtkins, this has all been discussed before, you are right.
21:41:24 <cabanier> krit: right now some attributes depend on the element such as x, y on text or a rectangle
21:41:54 <cabanier> shepazu: I prefer that each element can have its own behavior
21:42:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg
21:42:26 <cabanier> … I'm unsure where the group is on different names such as rectX, etc
21:42:48 <cabanier> … does anyone think that width height in SVG than it is in CSS
21:42:54 <cabanier> heycam: I don't think so
21:43:14 <cabanier> … It depends on the pattern of renaming that we will use
21:43:30 <cabanier> … if we use longer descriptor names, it might make sense. Otherwise no
21:44:06 <cabanier> shepazu: does it make sense to not add cx, cy to a circle and stick to x and y?
21:44:16 <cabanier> krit: the CSS WG doesn't even want x and y
21:44:49 <TabAtkins> We don't want x and y because those are on the "used in two different ways with different grammars" list. ^_^
21:45:34 <cabanier> krit: (reading Tab's irc)
21:45:50 <heycam> It could be just as easy as saying "rect { x: 10px 20px }" is treated just like 10px
21:45:55 <heycam> if we wanted to use the same syntax
21:46:07 <heycam> not sure how much of a problem it really is
21:46:17 <cabanier> shepazu: maybe we can say that x/y is treated differently
21:46:48 <cabanier> heycam: we can talk about boxes in SVG
21:46:58 <cabanier> krit: that is a totally differnt topic
21:47:42 <cabanier> krit: I would like to see circles directly in HTML and <p> directly in SVG
21:47:54 <cabanier> .. at that point we need to decribe the boxing model
21:48:39 <cabanier> … but it's still not working. we need 2 different properties
21:49:01 <TabAtkins> (I'm fine with x/y as just being properties used by the SVG layout model, and <text> exposing some differently-named property for its x/y stuff.
21:49:38 <krit> would work as well, again, just an edge case that we need to resolve on later
21:50:13 <cabanier> shepazu: the HTML WG is becoming more modularized
21:50:25 <cabanier> … we could write a new module that descibes SVG in HTML
21:50:39 <cabanier> … and have bare SVG elements
21:50:52 <cabanier> krit: it doesn't have to be a new module
21:51:01 <cabanier> shepazu: yes. but how would we do this?
21:51:44 <shepazu> agenda+ confs
21:52:27 <cabanier> topic: SVG font in SVG 2
21:52:53 <cabanier> krit: we are not working on SVG fonts
21:52:57 <shepazu> agenda+ SVG at ISO
21:53:12 <cabanier> … and a lot of things are not implemented and FF and IE are not going either
21:53:19 <cabanier> … so I would like to remove from SVG2
21:53:35 <cabanier> heycam: we agreed to have a separate module
21:54:11 <cabanier> … I do agree with your point to have a separate module. However, I don't know how good use of a time it is
21:54:26 <cabanier> krit: it's already in its own module, so we can split it off
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21:54:45 <cabanier> heycam: yes, but it's in the SVG 1.1 spec, so they can still implement it
21:54:45 <stearns> stearns has joined #svg
21:56:23 <cabanier> ed: I think we have actions. Chris has an action to create a new font module
21:56:33 <cabanier> … I have an action to move the tiny font
21:56:53 <cabanier> heycam: you will move the chapter of the tiny spec into the main spec?
21:57:00 <Zakim> -Tav
21:57:01 <cabanier> … do you still agree that we should do that
21:57:17 <cabanier> ed: whatever's easiest. It's not required
21:57:27 <cabanier> heycam: it's very unlikely that we will implement that
21:57:37 <cabanier> … I don't know if that matters.
21:57:50 <cabanier> shepazu: I think it does.
21:58:17 <cabanier> … getting consensus on if a feature is part of the language is important.
21:58:28 <ed> s/It's not required/as long as it's a required part/
21:58:28 <cabanier> … otherwise authors will have a bad time
21:58:33 <Zakim> +Tav
21:58:57 <cabanier> … even if it's a module, we should say if it's required or not
21:59:38 <cabanier> krit: I'd say the fonts module is not part of the core
22:00:11 <cabanier> Tav:	I think the SVG fonts are serving a different purpose. For instance decorative purposes
22:00:18 <cabanier> shepazu: I agree with you
22:00:48 <cabanier> … how, today the inkscape output does not render in FF, IE or webkit
22:00:56 <cabanier> … this harms every authoring tool
22:01:16 <cabanier> Tav: inkscape doesn't support svg fonts today :-0)
22:01:34 <cabanier> shepazu: so this proves my point
22:02:08 <cabanier> …you and Eric say that they want to keep SVG fonts, but they've never been properly supported
22:02:18 <Zakim> -birtles
22:02:56 <cabanier> krit: yes, WebKit only had a small part of fonts implemented
22:03:16 <cabanier> shepazu: also, there will be SVG fonts inside of OpenType
22:03:25 <cabanier> … that is one way
22:04:05 <cabanier> … for instance, groovy text is very hard to use with SVG fonts today
22:04:26 <cabanier> … we should look at what features we want from SVG text
22:04:41 <ed> clarification: I do want to keep SVG *Tiny* fonts, the SVG 1.1 full fonts are just underspecified - and would need much more detail (the same applies to svg-in-opentype as well)
22:04:58 <heycam> +1 to what doug just said about associating text with graphics
22:05:25 <cabanier> tav: this solution, would you be able to select the text?
22:06:29 <cabanier> krit: SVG in opentype can do a lot more than SVG fonts
22:06:34 <cabanier> … animation for instance
22:06:45 <cabanier> shepazu: that's not quite true
22:07:30 <cabanier> … however, we're talking about adding features. We're not talking about dropping features
22:07:36 <krit> krit has joined #svg
22:07:41 <cabanier> heycam: I think with Doug
22:08:01 <cabanier> … marking graphics with a title/description
22:08:08 <cabanier> … would be a good idea
22:08:31 <cabanier> … It would be a good idea that you could select the box and copy the text
22:09:03 <cabanier> shepazu: I think that sounds great and especially if it can be implemented easily
22:10:08 <cabanier> heycam: I agree that what's in the spec is what we want people to implement
22:10:19 <cabanier> shepazu: yes, that is the goal of SVG2
22:11:11 <cabanier> Tav: it would be good if there's an alternate way to get access to the content (inside the glyph)
22:11:45 <Zakim> -krit
22:11:45 <cabanier> heycam: I recently heard that some people had troubles with outlined text
22:12:12 <Zakim> +krit
22:12:14 <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Dec/0070.html
22:12:44 <cabanier> shepazu: regardless of our decision on font, I would like to push forward with groovy text
22:13:08 <cabanier> … it would be nice that you can aggregate strings
22:13:41 <cabanier> heycam: yes, that's why I want to define the selection area
22:14:00 <cabanier> shepazu: maybe having them as seperate elements will do that
22:14:16 <cabanier> heycam: yes. I would like to think about a feature like this
22:14:37 <ed> that looks similar to altGlyph
22:14:52 <ed> (which isn't part of svgfonts)
22:15:01 <heycam> good point ed
22:15:07 <heycam> we should look at what altGlyph affords us now
22:16:10 <Zakim> +Rich
22:18:06 <cabanier> shepazu: krit, why do you want SVG fonts to drop?
22:18:23 <cabanier> heycam: because we think SVG fonts are not the right direction
22:18:43 <cabanier> krit: ???
22:19:01 <cabanier> krit: we won't drop exisitng support because of legacy reasons
22:19:25 <cabanier> shepazu: is your point that ie and ff not implementing, is doing more harm than good?
22:19:30 <cabanier> krit: yes
22:20:44 <cabanier> heycam: we can discuss this more during the F2F
22:21:03 <cabanier> heycam: does anyone have remarks on the groovy text proposal?
22:21:24 <cabanier> heycam: I will come up with a more concrete proposal
22:21:38 <cabanier> krit: yes, how you use it, where, etc
22:22:57 <cabanier> action: heycam make a concrete proposal for associating text with graphics
22:22:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3407 - Make a concrete proposal for associating text with graphics [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-12-27].
22:23:49 <heycam> q?
22:23:50 <shepazu> agenda?
22:27:16 <cabanier> topic: confs
22:27:48 <cabanier> shepazu: Josh Davis will talk at w3conf
22:27:49 <shepazu> http://openvisconf.com
22:28:28 <cabanier> … ??? asked me to submit a paper on accessibility of data visualisation
22:28:42 <cabanier> … if anyone is interested in making some examples
22:28:51 <cabanier> … I would love that
22:29:11 <cabanier> … this conference is in May
22:29:23 <cabanier> richardschwerdtfeger: I have some material that you can reuse
22:29:36 <cabanier> shepazu: and talk about connector and ARIA
22:30:01 <cabanier> … if anyone knows anything other conference where we can promote SVG
22:30:08 <cabanier> topic SVG at ISO
22:30:15 <thorton> thorton has joined #svg
22:30:19 <cabanier> topic: SVG at ISO
22:30:36 <cabanier> shepazu: W3C can have its specs rubber stamped
22:30:43 <cabanier> … we want to get an SVG ISO spec
22:31:02 <cabanier> … are we planning on making a SVG 1.1 version 3?
22:31:05 <cabanier> heycam: no
22:31:27 <cabanier> shepazu: SVG 2.0 is not ready  in 2013
22:31:55 <cabanier> … if a spec is an iso spec, it can be used by more people (ie governments)
22:32:17 <cabanier> … it comes down to, having more people using your technology
22:33:12 <cabanier> cabanier: don't we lose rights to our own documents if we submit to ISO?
22:33:42 <cabanier> shepazu: no. The W3C worked out a special deal. ISO can't change or owns the spec
22:34:17 <cabanier> … people can buy the specs from ISO but there is a link on the ISO URL where you can download the spec from the W3C
22:35:48 <cabanier> shepazu: so, if we give them something this year, it should be SVG 1.1 second edition
22:36:09 <cabanier> richardschwerdtfeger: what state do we expect SVG2.0 to be by the end of 2013?
22:36:16 <cabanier> heycam: CR hopefully
22:36:39 <cabanier> richardschwerdtfeger: this would mean that epub would pick it up for 3.1
22:36:59 <cabanier> heycam: that could be good since epub is picking up all the CSS features
22:42:13 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
22:42:15 <Zakim> -heycam
22:42:16 <Zakim> -ed
22:42:18 <Zakim> -Tav
22:42:19 <Zakim> -nikos
22:42:19 <Zakim> -cabanier
22:42:21 <Zakim> -Rich
22:42:21 <Zakim> -krit
22:42:21 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has ended
22:42:21 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.415.308.aaaa, ed, birtles, cabanier, krit, heycam, Doug_Schepers, nikos, Tav, Rich
22:43:03 <cabanier> RRSAgent, make minutes
22:43:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-svg-minutes.html cabanier
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