IRC log of eval on 2012-12-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:58:16 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eval
14:58:16 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-eval-irc
14:58:18 [Liz]
Liz has joined #eval
14:58:18 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:18 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #eval
14:58:20 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3825
14:58:20 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:21 [trackbot]
Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
14:58:21 [trackbot]
Date: 20 December 2012
14:58:53 [shadi]
zakim, this is eval
14:58:53 [Zakim]
shadi, I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be eval".
14:58:53 [MartijnHoutepen]
MartijnHoutepen has joined #eval
14:59:00 [shadi]
zakim, this will be eval
14:59:00 [Zakim]
ok, shadi; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:08 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
14:59:15 [Zakim]
+Liz
15:00:23 [Zakim]
+Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:00:36 [ericvelleman]
my phone has trouble calling in
15:00:39 [Zakim]
+MartijnHoutepen
15:01:48 [Kathy]
Kathy has joined #eval
15:02:27 [Zakim]
+Kathy
15:02:36 [Liz]
Liz has joined
15:02:44 [Zakim]
+Shadi
15:02:52 [Zakim]
+Mike
15:03:23 [Ryladog]
Ryladog has joined #eval
15:03:27 [Zakim]
+ericvelleman
15:03:35 [Zakim]
-ericvelleman
15:03:49 [Zakim]
+Peter_Korn
15:03:55 [ericvelleman]
sorry, problem with my phone, thing will not do what I want..
15:04:30 [ericvelleman]
this ruins my Christmas feeling :-)
15:04:54 [Zakim]
+ericvelleman
15:07:58 [korn_]
korn_ has joined #eval
15:08:09 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, mute me
15:08:09 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:08:20 [Kathy]
scribe: Kathy
15:08:30 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
15:08:30 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
15:08:38 [Kathy]
Eric: Welcome, last call for this year
15:08:48 [shadi]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2012Dec/0016.html
15:10:10 [Kathy]
Eric: Next Topic: 2. Disposition of Comments
15:10:29 [Kathy]
Eric: a number of people have added comments.
15:11:22 [Kathy]
Eric: new approach to help people follow the discussions; the main document to look at is the editor draft
15:11:51 [Kathy]
Eric: main way to provide feedback is the survey
15:13:31 [Kathy]
Eric: look at the diff version to look at the changes
15:13:57 [Zakim]
+[Oracle]
15:14:00 [Kathy]
Eric: Eric will send out emails about topics to discuss
15:14:02 [Zakim]
-Peter_Korn
15:14:34 [korn]
korn has joined #eval
15:14:38 [Kathy]
Eric: he is grouping comments together
15:15:41 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:15:51 [korn]
Zakim, Oracle has Peter_Korn
15:15:51 [Zakim]
+Peter_Korn; got it
15:16:02 [Kathy]
Topic: #3. Surveys
15:16:53 [Kathy]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltfq6/
15:17:04 [Kathy]
Eric: we will now discuss the survey
15:18:07 [Kathy]
Eric: Start talking about DoC_ID_31 - Change states to web pages
15:18:07 [ericvelleman]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltfq6/results#x2631
15:18:58 [korn]
q+
15:19:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
https://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff?doc1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2FER%2Fconformance%2FED-methodology-20120915&doc2=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2FER%2Fconformance%2FED-methodology-20121213#specialcases
15:19:22 [Kathy]
q+
15:19:31 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:19:49 [Kathy]
Peter: Maybe we should re-write the paragraph
15:19:51 [Tim]
Tim has joined #eval
15:19:59 [korn]
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-EM/#specialcases
15:20:50 [Kathy]
Peter: maybe we should have definition of web app
15:21:43 [shadi]
+1 to change
15:21:44 [shadi]
q+
15:21:46 [Kathy]
Peter - maybe we should change state to change
15:22:44 [Kathy]
q-
15:22:55 [korn]
q-
15:23:01 [shadi]
ack me
15:23:07 [Kathy]
Peter: maybe need to describe the actions and data required for the page state
15:23:25 [shadi]
ack me
15:23:33 [shadi]
zakim, unmute me
15:23:33 [Zakim]
Shadi was not muted, shadi
15:23:37 [ericvelleman]
Shadi, we cannot hear you
15:23:48 [shadi]
zakim, unmute me
15:23:48 [Zakim]
Shadi was not muted, shadi
15:24:12 [Kathy]
+1
15:24:26 [ericvelleman]
changing states to changes
15:24:31 [shadi]
[[+1 to not using techie jargon like "page state"]]
15:24:35 [Kathy]
Eric: what do people think about changing change state to changes
15:24:49 [Zakim]
-Shadi
15:25:09 [MartijnHoutepen]
+1
15:25:15 [Kathy]
Eric: should we rewrite this
15:25:16 [Kathy]
+1
15:25:23 [Zakim]
+Shadi
15:26:18 [Kathy]
Shadi: agrees with Peter. We need to rewrite this section
15:26:35 [Kathy]
Eric: next discussion DoC_ID_37 - Automatic Evaluation thoughts
15:27:23 [Kathy]
Eric: we did add some information on automation. Some comments on using just automation but that is not enough
15:27:35 [korn]
q+
15:27:54 [Kathy]
Eric: different proposal on where we can add this information - reporting
15:28:14 [Kathy]
Peter: 17% of WCAG 2.0 is automateable
15:28:46 [korn]
q-
15:28:47 [Kathy]
q+
15:29:06 [Kathy]
Peter: need to also think about web app
15:29:16 [Kathy]
Eric: no one suggested adding it as another step
15:29:34 [Kathy]
Peter: we can state that is may be a component with the limitations that....
15:29:45 [Kathy]
ack me
15:30:05 [Zakim]
+Tim_Boland
15:30:27 [Kathy]
Kathy: limitations with the tools for web apps
15:30:55 [Kathy]
Eric: will come up with a text proposal within the document
15:31:26 [Kathy]
Eric: does anyone think this needs to be a separate step
15:31:40 [Kathy]
Peter: maybe an optional step with the limitations stated
15:32:00 [Kathy]
Eric: should it be in the reporting section
15:32:02 [shadi]
q+
15:32:10 [shadi]
ack me
15:32:10 [Kathy]
Peter: yes, should be in reporting section
15:34:01 [Kathy]
Shadi: on the fence; limitation of tools is so big. I like the idea as an optional step. We didn't forget about tools but that we are stating the limitation. It is not a required step
15:34:12 [Kathy]
Shadi: we can clearly message as a supporting step
15:35:09 [Kathy]
Shadi: The advice before was old when it there was more static pages from WCAG 1.0 days
15:35:25 [Kathy]
Shadi: it needs to be updated
15:35:59 [korn]
q+
15:36:19 [Kathy]
Tim: consulting on a project, they think that the use of automated tools is sufficient. So it is important to note that it is not sufficient
15:36:50 [Kathy]
Shadi: if it is a separate step then we can explain the role of tools and we can answer the questions about how it could fit in
15:37:03 [shadi]
q+
15:37:07 [Kathy]
Tim: It needs to be consistent across WAI on the use of tools
15:37:38 [Kathy]
Peter: we should go to some length about tools in the explanation within the document
15:38:09 [Kathy]
Peter: automated tools alone will not get the results needed
15:38:14 [shadi]
ack me
15:38:15 [korn]
q-
15:38:16 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/eval/selectingtools
15:39:10 [Kathy]
Shadi: Tim we can follow up separately. The document for selecting tools needs to be updated. These tools are useful. David estimated 15% could be automated for failure
15:39:36 [Kathy]
Shadi: if we talk about conformance then this percentage goes down
15:39:54 [Kathy]
Shadi: automated tools cover small portion
15:39:57 [korn]
q+
15:40:49 [Kathy]
Shadi: make sure that the shed false light; tools are important. The are just a part or component
15:40:53 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
15:40:53 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
15:41:24 [Kathy]
Peter: in addition to automated tools. Tools that are no automated are also useful
15:41:48 [Kathy]
Peter: we need to make the clarification on automated tools vs tool assisted evaluation
15:41:52 [shadi]
ack me
15:42:00 [shadi]
q+
15:42:18 [shadi]
ack me
15:42:59 [Kathy]
Shadi: agree; the document selecting tools has some of that information
15:43:01 [Kathy]
q+
15:43:14 [Kathy]
Shadi: we want to describe how it fits in the process
15:43:18 [korn]
q-
15:43:22 [Kathy]
ack me
15:44:14 [Kathy]
Kathy: there are also reporting tools. We should include all three
15:44:58 [Kathy]
Eric: I have the input for the new editor draft. I will add a step.
15:45:04 [Kathy]
Eric: where does it go?
15:45:28 [Kathy]
Eric: maybe audit the selected sample
15:45:39 [Kathy]
q+
15:45:43 [Kathy]
ack me
15:45:43 [MartijnHoutepen]
q+
15:46:08 [MartijnHoutepen]
ack me
15:46:19 [Kathy]
Kathy: maybe not the last step. Should be in the order that you would conduct the review
15:46:41 [Kathy]
Martin: need to rewrite the section and think about where it goes
15:47:08 [MartijnHoutepen]
zakim, mute me
15:47:08 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:47:35 [Kathy]
Eric: I will make a proposal
15:47:47 [MartijnHoutepen]
+1
15:47:51 [Kathy]
+1
15:48:00 [Tim]
+1
15:48:18 [Liz]
+1
15:48:23 [Kathy]
Eric: anything else on this one?
15:48:34 [Kathy]
Eric: let's move on to DoC_ID_49 - Extend target with more SC
15:48:40 [ericvelleman]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltfq6/results#xq5
15:48:56 [Kathy]
Topic: Input for one page web applications
15:49:12 [Kathy]
Are one page web applications covered sufficiently in the current version of the WCAG-EM? If you think not, where should we add this?
15:49:14 [korn]
q-
15:49:17 [korn]
q+
15:49:36 [Kathy]
Eric: saw a lot of discussion on this. We want to add the proposal to the next draft
15:49:59 [Kathy]
Peter: testing web application is a fundamentally different process. The approach, documentation will be different
15:50:18 [Kathy]
Peter: not sure if this is best to have a separate steps
15:50:32 [korn]
q-
15:50:46 [Kathy]
Eric: would you say this is not sufficient for web apps
15:50:57 [Kathy]
Peter: yes, this not sufficient yet
15:51:21 [Kathy]
Eric: Maybe we should have more discussion on this topic
15:51:58 [Kathy]
Peter: we should point people to where we are talking about web applications
15:52:01 [Kathy]
q+
15:53:22 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:53:22 [Kathy]
Eric: we will point to the sections with web app
15:53:35 [Kathy]
Kathy: also ask about what is missing
15:53:48 [Kathy]
Eric: we are at the end of the call; are there any other issues
15:53:56 [Kathy]
Eric: Very Merry Christmas
15:54:22 [Kathy]
Eric: I will send out an agenda
15:55:05 [Kathy]
Eric: Next meeting will be Jan 10
15:55:38 [Liz]
happy holidays,
15:55:41 [Zakim]
-Tim_Boland
15:55:42 [MartijnHoutepen]
ack me
15:55:47 [Zakim]
-[Oracle]
15:55:49 [Zakim]
-Mike
15:55:51 [Zakim]
-Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:55:52 [Zakim]
-Shadi
15:55:52 [Zakim]
-MartijnHoutepen
15:55:53 [Zakim]
-ericvelleman
15:55:56 [shadi]
trackbot, end meeting
15:55:56 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:55:56 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Liz, Katie_Haritos-Shea, MartijnHoutepen, Kathy, Shadi, Mike, ericvelleman, Peter_Korn, Tim_Boland
15:55:58 [Zakim]
-Liz
15:56:02 [ericvelleman]
ericvelleman has left #eval
15:56:04 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:56:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-eval-minutes.html trackbot
15:56:05 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
15:56:05 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
15:56:05 [Zakim]
-Kathy
15:56:06 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
15:56:06 [Zakim]
Attendees were Liz, Katie_Haritos-Shea, MartijnHoutepen, Kathy, Shadi, Mike, ericvelleman, Peter_Korn, Tim_Boland