14:58:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eval
14:58:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-eval-irc
14:58:18 <Liz> Liz has joined #eval
14:58:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:18 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eval
14:58:20 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3825
14:58:20 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:21 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
14:58:21 <trackbot> Date: 20 December 2012
14:58:53 <shadi> zakim, this is eval
14:58:53 <Zakim> shadi, I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be eval".
14:58:53 <MartijnHoutepen> MartijnHoutepen has joined #eval
14:59:00 <shadi> zakim, this will be eval
14:59:00 <Zakim> ok, shadi; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:08 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
14:59:15 <Zakim> +Liz
15:00:23 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:00:36 <ericvelleman> my phone has trouble calling in
15:00:39 <Zakim> +MartijnHoutepen
15:01:48 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #eval
15:02:27 <Zakim> +Kathy
15:02:36 <Liz> Liz has joined
15:02:44 <Zakim> +Shadi
15:02:52 <Zakim> +Mike
15:03:23 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #eval
15:03:27 <Zakim> +ericvelleman
15:03:35 <Zakim> -ericvelleman
15:03:49 <Zakim> +Peter_Korn
15:03:55 <ericvelleman> sorry, problem with my phone, thing will not do what I want..
15:04:30 <ericvelleman> this ruins my Christmas feeling :-)
15:04:54 <Zakim> +ericvelleman
15:07:58 <korn_> korn_ has joined #eval
15:08:09 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, mute me
15:08:09 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:08:20 <Kathy> scribe: Kathy
15:08:30 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:08:30 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
15:08:38 <Kathy> Eric:  Welcome, last call for this year
15:08:48 <shadi> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2012Dec/0016.html
15:10:10 <Kathy> Eric:  Next Topic: 2. Disposition of Comments
15:10:29 <Kathy> Eric: a number of people have added comments.
15:11:22 <Kathy> Eric: new approach to help people follow the discussions; the main document to look at is the editor draft
15:11:51 <Kathy> Eric: main way to provide feedback is the survey
15:13:31 <Kathy> Eric: look at the diff version to look at the changes
15:13:57 <Zakim> +[Oracle]
15:14:00 <Kathy> Eric: Eric will send out emails about topics to discuss
15:14:02 <Zakim> -Peter_Korn
15:14:34 <korn> korn has joined #eval
15:14:38 <Kathy> Eric: he is grouping comments together
15:15:41 <ericvelleman> q?
15:15:51 <korn> Zakim, Oracle has Peter_Korn
15:15:51 <Zakim> +Peter_Korn; got it
15:16:02 <Kathy> Topic: #3. Surveys
15:16:53 <Kathy> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltfq6/
15:17:04 <Kathy> Eric: we will now discuss the survey
15:18:07 <Kathy> Eric: Start talking about DoC_ID_31 - Change states to web pages
15:18:07 <ericvelleman> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltfq6/results#x2631
15:18:58 <korn> q+
15:19:17 <MartijnHoutepen> https://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff?doc1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2FER%2Fconformance%2FED-methodology-20120915&doc2=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2FER%2Fconformance%2FED-methodology-20121213#specialcases
15:19:22 <Kathy> q+
15:19:31 <ericvelleman> q?
15:19:49 <Kathy> Peter: Maybe we should re-write the paragraph
15:19:51 <Tim> Tim has joined #eval
15:19:59 <korn> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-EM/#specialcases
15:20:50 <Kathy> Peter: maybe we should have definition of web app
15:21:43 <shadi> +1 to change
15:21:44 <shadi> q+
15:21:46 <Kathy> Peter - maybe we should change state to change
15:22:44 <Kathy> q-
15:22:55 <korn> q-
15:23:01 <shadi> ack me
15:23:07 <Kathy> Peter: maybe need to describe the actions and data required for the page state
15:23:25 <shadi> ack me
15:23:33 <shadi> zakim, unmute me
15:23:33 <Zakim> Shadi was not muted, shadi
15:23:37 <ericvelleman> Shadi, we cannot hear you
15:23:48 <shadi> zakim, unmute me
15:23:48 <Zakim> Shadi was not muted, shadi
15:24:12 <Kathy> +1
15:24:26 <ericvelleman> changing states to changes
15:24:31 <shadi> [[+1 to not using techie jargon like "page state"]]
15:24:35 <Kathy> Eric: what do people think about changing change state to changes
15:24:49 <Zakim> -Shadi
15:25:09 <MartijnHoutepen> +1
15:25:15 <Kathy> Eric: should we rewrite this
15:25:16 <Kathy> +1
15:25:23 <Zakim> +Shadi
15:26:18 <Kathy> Shadi: agrees with Peter.  We need to rewrite this section
15:26:35 <Kathy> Eric: next discussion DoC_ID_37 - Automatic Evaluation thoughts
15:27:23 <Kathy> Eric: we did add some information on automation.  Some comments on using just automation but that is not enough
15:27:35 <korn> q+
15:27:54 <Kathy> Eric: different proposal on where we can add this information - reporting
15:28:14 <Kathy> Peter: 17% of WCAG 2.0 is automateable
15:28:46 <korn> q-
15:28:47 <Kathy> q+
15:29:06 <Kathy> Peter: need to also think about web app
15:29:16 <Kathy> Eric: no one suggested adding it as another step
15:29:34 <Kathy> Peter: we can state that is may be a component with the limitations that....
15:29:45 <Kathy> ack me
15:30:05 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
15:30:27 <Kathy> Kathy: limitations with the tools for web apps
15:30:55 <Kathy> Eric: will come up with a text proposal within the document
15:31:26 <Kathy> Eric: does anyone think this needs to be a separate step
15:31:40 <Kathy> Peter: maybe an optional step with the limitations stated
15:32:00 <Kathy> Eric: should it be in the reporting section
15:32:02 <shadi> q+
15:32:10 <shadi> ack me
15:32:10 <Kathy> Peter: yes, should be in reporting section
15:34:01 <Kathy> Shadi: on the fence; limitation of tools is so big.  I like the idea as an optional step.  We didn't forget about tools but that we are stating the limitation.  It is not a required step
15:34:12 <Kathy> Shadi: we can clearly message as a supporting step
15:35:09 <Kathy> Shadi: The advice before was old when it there was more static pages from WCAG 1.0 days
15:35:25 <Kathy> Shadi: it needs to be updated
15:35:59 <korn> q+
15:36:19 <Kathy> Tim:  consulting on a project, they think that the use of automated tools is sufficient.  So it is important to note that it is not sufficient
15:36:50 <Kathy> Shadi: if it is a separate step then we can explain the role of tools and we can answer the questions about how it could fit in
15:37:03 <shadi> q+
15:37:07 <Kathy> Tim:  It needs to be consistent across WAI on the use of tools
15:37:38 <Kathy> Peter: we should go to some length about tools in the explanation within the document
15:38:09 <Kathy> Peter:  automated tools alone will not get the results needed
15:38:14 <shadi> ack me
15:38:15 <korn> q-
15:38:16 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/eval/selectingtools
15:39:10 <Kathy> Shadi: Tim we can follow up separately.  The document for selecting tools needs to be updated.  These tools are useful.  David estimated 15% could be automated for failure
15:39:36 <Kathy> Shadi: if we talk about conformance then this percentage goes down
15:39:54 <Kathy> Shadi: automated tools cover small portion
15:39:57 <korn> q+
15:40:49 <Kathy> Shadi: make sure that the shed false light; tools are important.  The are just a part or component
15:40:53 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:40:53 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
15:41:24 <Kathy> Peter: in addition to automated tools.  Tools that are no automated are also useful
15:41:48 <Kathy> Peter:  we need to make the clarification on automated tools vs tool assisted evaluation
15:41:52 <shadi> ack me
15:42:00 <shadi> q+
15:42:18 <shadi> ack me
15:42:59 <Kathy> Shadi: agree; the document selecting tools has some of that information
15:43:01 <Kathy> q+
15:43:14 <Kathy> Shadi: we want to describe how it fits in the process
15:43:18 <korn> q-
15:43:22 <Kathy> ack me
15:44:14 <Kathy> Kathy:  there are also reporting tools.  We should include all three
15:44:58 <Kathy> Eric: I have the input for the new editor draft.  I will add a step.
15:45:04 <Kathy> Eric: where does it go?
15:45:28 <Kathy> Eric: maybe audit the selected sample
15:45:39 <Kathy> q+
15:45:43 <Kathy> ack me
15:45:43 <MartijnHoutepen> q+
15:46:08 <MartijnHoutepen> ack me
15:46:19 <Kathy> Kathy: maybe not the last step.  Should be in the order that you would conduct the review
15:46:41 <Kathy> Martin: need to rewrite the section and think about where it goes
15:47:08 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, mute me
15:47:08 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:47:35 <Kathy> Eric: I will make a proposal
15:47:47 <MartijnHoutepen> +1
15:47:51 <Kathy> +1
15:48:00 <Tim> +1
15:48:18 <Liz> +1
15:48:23 <Kathy> Eric: anything else on this one?
15:48:34 <Kathy> Eric: let's move on to DoC_ID_49 - Extend target with more SC
15:48:40 <ericvelleman> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltfq6/results#xq5
15:48:56 <Kathy> Topic: Input for one page web applications
15:49:12 <Kathy> Are one page web applications covered sufficiently in the current version of the WCAG-EM? If you think not, where should we add this?
15:49:14 <korn> q-
15:49:17 <korn> q+
15:49:36 <Kathy> Eric: saw a lot of discussion on this.  We want to add the proposal to the next draft
15:49:59 <Kathy> Peter:  testing web application is a fundamentally different process.  The approach, documentation will be different
15:50:18 <Kathy> Peter: not sure if this is best to have a separate steps
15:50:32 <korn> q-
15:50:46 <Kathy> Eric: would you say this is not sufficient for web apps
15:50:57 <Kathy> Peter: yes, this not sufficient yet
15:51:21 <Kathy> Eric: Maybe we should have more discussion on this topic
15:51:58 <Kathy> Peter: we should point people to where we are talking about web applications
15:52:01 <Kathy> q+
15:53:22 <ericvelleman> q?
15:53:22 <Kathy> Eric: we will point to the sections with web app
15:53:35 <Kathy> Kathy: also ask about what is missing
15:53:48 <Kathy> Eric: we are at the end of the call; are there any other issues
15:53:56 <Kathy> Eric: Very Merry Christmas
15:54:22 <Kathy> Eric: I will send out an agenda
15:55:05 <Kathy> Eric:  Next meeting will be Jan 10
15:55:38 <Liz> happy holidays,
15:55:41 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
15:55:42 <MartijnHoutepen> ack me
15:55:47 <Zakim> -[Oracle]
15:55:49 <Zakim> -Mike
15:55:51 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:55:52 <Zakim> -Shadi
15:55:52 <Zakim> -MartijnHoutepen
15:55:53 <Zakim> -ericvelleman
15:55:56 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
15:55:56 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:55:56 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Liz, Katie_Haritos-Shea, MartijnHoutepen, Kathy, Shadi, Mike, ericvelleman, Peter_Korn, Tim_Boland
15:55:58 <Zakim> -Liz
15:56:02 <ericvelleman> ericvelleman has left #eval
15:56:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:56:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-eval-minutes.html trackbot
15:56:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:56:05 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
15:56:05 <Zakim> -Kathy
15:56:06 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
15:56:06 <Zakim> Attendees were Liz, Katie_Haritos-Shea, MartijnHoutepen, Kathy, Shadi, Mike, ericvelleman, Peter_Korn, Tim_Boland