IRC log of eval on 2012-12-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:58:31 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eval
14:58:31 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/13-eval-irc
14:58:33 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:33 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #eval
14:58:35 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3825
14:58:35 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:36 [trackbot]
Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
14:58:36 [trackbot]
Date: 13 December 2012
14:58:50 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:58:50 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has not yet started, MartijnHoutepen
14:58:52 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Detlev, MartijnHoutepen, ericvelleman, Bim, shadi, trackbot
15:00:12 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:12 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has not yet started, MartijnHoutepen
15:00:13 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Detlev, MartijnHoutepen, ericvelleman, Bim, shadi, trackbot
15:00:30 [shadi]
zakim, this is evaltf
15:00:30 [Zakim]
sorry, shadi, I do not see a conference named 'evaltf' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:00:44 [shadi]
zakim, this is eval
15:00:44 [Zakim]
ok, shadi; that matches WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM
15:00:56 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MartijnHoutepen, +31.30.239.aaaa, Kathy, Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:01:03 [Zakim]
+Detlev
15:01:10 [shadi]
zakim, aaaa is Martijn
15:01:10 [Zakim]
+Martijn; got it
15:01:44 [ericvelleman]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:01:45 [Zakim]
sorry, ericvelleman, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:01:54 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, Martijn is really ericvelleman
15:01:54 [Zakim]
+ericvelleman; got it
15:03:12 [shadi]
zakim, code?
15:03:12 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3825 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), shadi
15:03:12 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
15:03:15 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
15:03:27 [Zakim]
+Shadi
15:03:37 [MartijnHoutepen]
regrets: Peter, Sarah, Ramon
15:03:50 [Detlev]
hi
15:04:07 [shadi]
scribe: shadi
15:04:34 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
15:04:34 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
15:04:47 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, mute me
15:04:47 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:04:55 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MartijnHoutepen (muted), ericvelleman, Kathy, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Detlev (muted), Shadi (muted)
15:05:03 [Ryladog]
Ryladog has joined #eval
15:05:03 [Kathy]
Kathy has joined #eval
15:05:29 [shadi]
Topic: Disposition of Comments
15:05:42 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120920
15:05:51 [shadi]
EV: new disposition of comments
15:05:55 [shadi]
...just updated
15:06:04 [shadi]
...lots of work from me on it
15:06:14 [shadi]
...includes discussion from last week
15:06:27 [shadi]
...did the changes in a new Editor Draft
15:06:44 [shadi]
...for where there is agreement in the survey
15:06:44 [MoeKraft]
MoeKraft has joined #eval
15:06:50 [shadi]
...for example for comment ID #8
15:07:07 [MartijnHoutepen]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120920#comment11
15:07:07 [shadi]
...better example is comment ID#11
15:07:29 [shadi]
...made the change in an updated Editor Draft
15:07:31 [Zakim]
+MoeKraft
15:07:34 [ericvelleman]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20121213
15:07:44 [shadi]
...this new draft is now also online
15:07:57 [shadi]
...fresh from the oven
15:08:30 [MartijnHoutepen]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120920#comment2
15:08:42 [shadi]
...column 2 shows the status
15:08:57 [shadi]
...for example for ID #2 points to on-going discussion
15:09:13 [shadi]
...this way we can keep track of the current status of each comment
15:10:15 [shadi]
...for example for ID #5 or #7, did proposal directly into the Editor Draft and point to it from the disposition of comment
15:10:30 [shadi]
...now can survey these proposals and get group input
15:10:43 [Detlev]
q+
15:11:02 [shadi]
MK: ID #5 took me to the top of the new Editor Draft
15:11:21 [shadi]
...is there a way to link directly to the relevant section?
15:11:42 [shadi]
q+
15:11:50 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:11:53 [Detlev]
ack me
15:12:11 [shadi]
DF: realize that this is quite complex now with so many comments
15:12:24 [shadi]
...also note drop of focus within the group
15:12:44 [shadi]
...not sure if easy to track things in 3 different places
15:12:59 [shadi]
...for me survey is the best way to respond to comments
15:13:16 [shadi]
...DoC and ED are static and cannot respond on
15:13:31 [shadi]
...not good where things need discussion
15:13:36 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
15:13:37 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
15:13:49 [shadi]
EV: agree; taking things that need discussion into surveys
15:13:56 [Detlev]
OK .. I see
15:14:06 [shadi]
...sometimes discussing specific comments and sometimes more general things
15:14:23 [Detlev]
q+
15:14:28 [shadi]
...sometimes need to propose text in a draft and ask for input on it
15:14:31 [shadi]
q- later
15:14:54 [shadi]
...sometimes also editorial things
15:15:40 [Detlev]
ack me
15:15:50 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:16:09 [shadi]
DF: think reluctance to repond is the amount of comments and places to focus on
15:16:14 [shadi]
...overwhelming
15:16:33 [shadi]
...think surveys are good to focus things on
15:16:55 [shadi]
...doing all in parallel is difficult
15:16:57 [shadi]
ack me
15:17:08 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
15:17:08 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
15:17:37 [MartijnHoutepen]
saz: thanks to Eric for the hard work
15:18:21 [MartijnHoutepen]
... agree that it is overwhelming and because of the holidays there is less participation
15:18:21 [Detlev]
Shadi: thanls Eric for tremendous work, explains reasons why we have a bit id a slow down
15:18:50 [Detlev]
Shadi: agrees that surveys are the place to contribute
15:19:26 [Detlev]
Shadi: some comments are easier to address in the draft, then having a pointer to draft in the survey
15:19:35 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:20:49 [Detlev]
Shadi: disposition of comments affords overview-... Q to Eric - does that reflect your view?
15:20:53 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
15:20:53 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
15:21:09 [shadi]
scribe: shadi
15:21:20 [shadi]
EV: agree with Detlev that it is overwhelming
15:21:44 [shadi]
...linked more in disposition of comments
15:21:44 [shadi]
ack me
15:21:58 [shadi]
...will link more from surveys
15:22:41 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:22:50 [Detlev]
no?
15:22:57 [shadi]
...also link to survey results from disposition of comments
15:23:02 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
15:23:02 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
15:23:26 [shadi]
q+
15:23:34 [shadi]
ack me
15:23:57 [ericvelleman]
https://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff?doc1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2FER%2Fconformance%2FED-methodology-20120915&doc2=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2FER%2Fconformance%2FED-methodology-20121213
15:24:05 [Detlev]
Links to diff version will be very useful!!
15:25:16 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
15:25:16 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
15:25:45 [shadi]
SAZ: cen predict diff-version URI and link into that from surveys and disposition of comments
15:25:53 [shadi]
s/cen/can
15:26:08 [Detlev]
sounds good
15:26:12 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:26:27 [shadi]
ack me
15:26:58 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
15:26:58 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
15:27:16 [shadi]
EV: survey #5 is closed
15:27:25 [shadi]
...working comments into the drafts
15:27:40 [Detlev]
q+
15:27:45 [shadi]
...survey #6 was open until yesterday
15:27:50 [shadi]
...some points in there may start new discussion
15:28:00 [Bim]
Bim has joined #eval
15:28:19 [Zakim]
+Tim_Boland
15:28:23 [shadi]
...some divergence of opinions on some of the questions
15:28:45 [shadi]
...plan to launch new survey tomorrow or over the weekend
15:28:57 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:28:57 [Detlev]
ack me
15:29:43 [shadi]
DF: maybe worth while to reopen last survey and ping people
15:30:06 [shadi]
EV: quite some discussion on the last question
15:30:12 [shadi]
...might be OK
15:30:53 [shadi]
ack me
15:31:18 [shadi]
DF: don't mind several surveys
15:31:32 [shadi]
...but important clearly request input from the group
15:31:34 [shadi]
q+
15:31:45 [shadi]
ack me
15:31:46 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
15:31:46 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
15:33:45 [shadi]
EV: agree may seem overwhelming
15:33:49 [shadi]
...keep focus on surveys
15:33:59 [Detlev]
1+ 11+ 1+
15:35:04 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
15:35:04 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
15:35:25 [shadi]
ack me
15:36:07 [Detlev]
q+
15:36:14 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
15:36:14 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
15:36:34 [Detlev]
ack me
15:36:47 [Detlev]
this allows people to reuse the methodology in many more situations without actually broadening the scope of the document.
15:36:59 [shadi]
DF: question on rational to resolution to ID #4
15:37:27 [shadi]
...what is the difference between broadening the scope and providing use cases?
15:37:33 [MartijnHoutepen]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120920#comment4
15:37:49 [shadi]
...had commented on not constraining the uses
15:38:07 [shadi]
...for example make usable during development
15:38:22 [shadi]
...but not sure why decision is "no change"
15:38:26 [shadi]
q+
15:38:43 [shadi]
...not sure methodology needs to look very different
15:38:57 [shadi]
...maybe change the report and certainly not accessibility statement
15:39:14 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:39:19 [shadi]
...think concern is that document will get complicated
15:39:20 [shadi]
ack me
15:39:45 [shadi]
q+
15:39:49 [shadi]
EV: still on-going discussion
15:39:58 [shadi]
...e-mail thread going on
15:40:25 [shadi]
...seems to be mistake in the disposition of coments
15:40:33 [shadi]
...not the current rationale
15:40:37 [MartijnHoutepen]
https://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff?doc1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2FER%2Fconformance%2FED-methodology-20120915&doc2=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2FER%2Fconformance%2FED-methodology-20121213#scope
15:41:43 [shadi]
ack me
15:42:28 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-eval-minutes.html
15:42:45 [shadi]
MK: also discussed not being able to make a statement of compliance when using during development
15:43:07 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:44:22 [Detlev]
Shadi: difference between broadening scope and introducing usecases - if we include option for using WCAG-EM during develoopment we may have scope crewep, users asdking for introducing extra things
15:45:00 [Detlev]
Shadi: if we focus on main use case we can still encourage application of WCAG-EM in othe contexts / use cases
15:45:46 [shadi]
DF: agree basically with that
15:46:04 [shadi]
...can specify main purpose
15:46:15 [shadi]
...but also explain and encourage use during development
15:46:28 [shadi]
...of course noting that will not lead to conformance
15:47:26 [Detlev]
fine
15:48:09 [Tim]
Tim has joined #eval
15:48:10 [shadi]
EV: discussion still open on this
15:48:45 [shadi]
Topic: Discussion in survey evaltfq6
15:48:55 [shadi]
EV: valuable input from Detlev
15:49:17 [shadi]
...will reopen it and ask people to answer or edit their responses as needed
15:49:19 [Detlev]
ack me
15:50:00 [shadi]
DF: maybe good to remind people that they can go back and change their responses
15:50:09 [shadi]
...did not know about that feature
15:50:24 [shadi]
ack me
15:51:21 [Detlev]
you never get the same sense of overview on the mailing list!
15:52:05 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:52:30 [shadi]
EV: as long as comments are relatively concise it helps having it in one place
15:53:08 [shadi]
EV: planning to do call next week
15:53:15 [shadi]
...then the next in January
15:53:21 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, unmute me
15:53:21 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should no longer be muted
15:53:22 [Detlev]
bye
15:53:25 [Zakim]
-Tim_Boland
15:53:26 [Zakim]
-Detlev
15:53:27 [Kathy]
bye
15:53:27 [Zakim]
-Kathy
15:53:28 [Zakim]
-MartijnHoutepen
15:53:29 [Zakim]
-Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:53:29 [Zakim]
-Shadi
15:53:30 [ericvelleman]
ericvelleman has left #eval
15:53:45 [shadi]
trackbot, end meeting
15:53:45 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:53:45 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been MartijnHoutepen, +31.30.239.aaaa, Kathy, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Detlev, ericvelleman, Shadi, MoeKraft, Tim_Boland
15:53:49 [Zakim]
-ericvelleman
15:53:49 [Zakim]
-MoeKraft
15:53:49 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
15:53:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were MartijnHoutepen, +31.30.239.aaaa, Kathy, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Detlev, ericvelleman, Shadi, MoeKraft, Tim_Boland
15:53:50 [Tim]
Tim has left #eval
15:53:52 [MartijnHoutepen]
MartijnHoutepen has left #eval
15:53:53 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:53:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/13-eval-minutes.html trackbot
15:53:54 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
15:53:54 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items