14:58:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eval
14:58:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/13-eval-irc
14:58:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:33 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eval
14:58:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3825
14:58:35 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:36 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
14:58:36 <trackbot> Date: 13 December 2012
14:58:50 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:58:50 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has not yet started, MartijnHoutepen
14:58:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Detlev, MartijnHoutepen, ericvelleman, Bim, shadi, trackbot
15:00:12 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:12 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has not yet started, MartijnHoutepen
15:00:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Detlev, MartijnHoutepen, ericvelleman, Bim, shadi, trackbot
15:00:30 <shadi> zakim, this is evaltf
15:00:30 <Zakim> sorry, shadi, I do not see a conference named 'evaltf' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:00:44 <shadi> zakim, this is eval
15:00:44 <Zakim> ok, shadi; that matches WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM
15:00:56 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see MartijnHoutepen, +31.30.239.aaaa, Kathy, Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:01:03 <Zakim> +Detlev
15:01:10 <shadi> zakim, aaaa is Martijn
15:01:10 <Zakim> +Martijn; got it
15:01:44 <ericvelleman> zakim, aaaa is me
15:01:45 <Zakim> sorry, ericvelleman, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:01:54 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, Martijn is really ericvelleman
15:01:54 <Zakim> +ericvelleman; got it
15:03:12 <shadi> zakim, code?
15:03:12 <Zakim> the conference code is 3825 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), shadi
15:03:12 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
15:03:15 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:03:27 <Zakim> +Shadi
15:03:37 <MartijnHoutepen> regrets: Peter, Sarah, Ramon
15:03:50 <Detlev> hi
15:04:07 <shadi> scribe: shadi
15:04:34 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:04:34 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
15:04:47 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, mute me
15:04:47 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:04:55 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see MartijnHoutepen (muted), ericvelleman, Kathy, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Detlev (muted), Shadi (muted)
15:05:03 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #eval
15:05:03 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #eval
15:05:29 <shadi> Topic: Disposition of Comments
15:05:42 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120920
15:05:51 <shadi> EV: new disposition of comments
15:05:55 <shadi> ...just updated
15:06:04 <shadi> ...lots of work from me on it
15:06:14 <shadi> ...includes discussion from last week
15:06:27 <shadi> ...did the changes in a new Editor Draft
15:06:44 <shadi> ...for where there is agreement in the survey
15:06:44 <MoeKraft> MoeKraft has joined #eval
15:06:50 <shadi> ...for example for comment ID #8
15:07:07 <MartijnHoutepen> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120920#comment11
15:07:07 <shadi> ...better example is comment ID#11
15:07:29 <shadi> ...made the change in an updated Editor Draft
15:07:31 <Zakim> +MoeKraft
15:07:34 <ericvelleman> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20121213
15:07:44 <shadi> ...this new draft is now also online
15:07:57 <shadi> ...fresh from the oven
15:08:30 <MartijnHoutepen> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120920#comment2
15:08:42 <shadi> ...column 2 shows the status
15:08:57 <shadi> ...for example for ID #2 points to on-going discussion
15:09:13 <shadi> ...this way we can keep track of the current status of each comment
15:10:15 <shadi> ...for example for ID #5 or #7, did proposal directly into the Editor Draft and point to it from the disposition of comment
15:10:30 <shadi> ...now can survey these proposals and get group input
15:10:43 <Detlev> q+
15:11:02 <shadi> MK: ID #5 took me to the top of the new Editor Draft
15:11:21 <shadi> ...is there a way to link directly to the relevant section?
15:11:42 <shadi> q+
15:11:50 <ericvelleman> q?
15:11:53 <Detlev> ack me
15:12:11 <shadi> DF: realize that this is quite complex now with so many comments
15:12:24 <shadi> ...also note drop of focus within the group
15:12:44 <shadi> ...not sure if easy to track things in 3 different places
15:12:59 <shadi> ...for me survey is the best way to respond to comments
15:13:16 <shadi> ...DoC and ED are static and cannot respond on
15:13:31 <shadi> ...not good where things need discussion
15:13:36 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
15:13:37 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:13:49 <shadi> EV: agree; taking things that need discussion into surveys
15:13:56 <Detlev> OK .. I see
15:14:06 <shadi> ...sometimes discussing specific comments and sometimes more general things
15:14:23 <Detlev> q+
15:14:28 <shadi> ...sometimes need to propose text in a draft and ask for input on it
15:14:31 <shadi> q- later
15:14:54 <shadi> ...sometimes also editorial things
15:15:40 <Detlev> ack me
15:15:50 <ericvelleman> q?
15:16:09 <shadi> DF: think reluctance to repond is the amount of comments and places to focus on
15:16:14 <shadi> ...overwhelming
15:16:33 <shadi> ...think surveys are good to focus things on
15:16:55 <shadi> ...doing all in parallel is difficult
15:16:57 <shadi> ack me
15:17:08 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
15:17:08 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:17:37 <MartijnHoutepen> saz: thanks to Eric for the hard work
15:18:21 <MartijnHoutepen> ... agree that it is overwhelming and because of the holidays there is less participation
15:18:21 <Detlev> Shadi: thanls Eric for tremendous work, explains reasons why we have a bit id a slow down
15:18:50 <Detlev> Shadi: agrees that surveys are the place to contribute
15:19:26 <Detlev> Shadi: some comments are easier to address in the draft, then having a pointer to draft in the survey
15:19:35 <ericvelleman> q?
15:20:49 <Detlev> Shadi: disposition of comments affords overview-... Q to Eric - does that reflect your view?
15:20:53 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:20:53 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
15:21:09 <shadi> scribe: shadi
15:21:20 <shadi> EV: agree with Detlev that it is overwhelming
15:21:44 <shadi> ...linked more in disposition of comments
15:21:44 <shadi> ack me
15:21:58 <shadi> ...will link more from surveys
15:22:41 <ericvelleman> q?
15:22:50 <Detlev> no?
15:22:57 <shadi> ...also link to survey results from disposition of comments
15:23:02 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:23:02 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
15:23:26 <shadi> q+
15:23:34 <shadi> ack me
15:23:57 <ericvelleman> https://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff?doc1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2FER%2Fconformance%2FED-methodology-20120915&doc2=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2FER%2Fconformance%2FED-methodology-20121213
15:24:05 <Detlev> Links to diff version will be very useful!!
15:25:16 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:25:16 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
15:25:45 <shadi> SAZ: cen predict diff-version URI and link into that from surveys and disposition of comments
15:25:53 <shadi> s/cen/can
15:26:08 <Detlev> sounds good
15:26:12 <ericvelleman> q?
15:26:27 <shadi> ack me
15:26:58 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:26:58 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
15:27:16 <shadi> EV: survey #5 is closed
15:27:25 <shadi> ...working comments into the drafts
15:27:40 <Detlev> q+
15:27:45 <shadi> ...survey #6 was open until yesterday
15:27:50 <shadi> ...some points in there may start new discussion
15:28:00 <Bim> Bim has joined #eval
15:28:19 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
15:28:23 <shadi> ...some divergence of opinions on some of the questions
15:28:45 <shadi> ...plan to launch new survey tomorrow or over the weekend
15:28:57 <ericvelleman> q?
15:28:57 <Detlev> ack me
15:29:43 <shadi> DF: maybe worth while to reopen last survey and ping people
15:30:06 <shadi> EV: quite some discussion on the last question
15:30:12 <shadi> ...might be OK
15:30:53 <shadi> ack me
15:31:18 <shadi> DF: don't mind several surveys
15:31:32 <shadi> ...but important clearly request input from the group
15:31:34 <shadi> q+
15:31:45 <shadi> ack me
15:31:46 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
15:31:46 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:33:45 <shadi> EV: agree may seem overwhelming
15:33:49 <shadi> ...keep focus on surveys
15:33:59 <Detlev> 1+ 11+ 1+
15:35:04 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:35:04 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
15:35:25 <shadi> ack me
15:36:07 <Detlev> q+
15:36:14 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:36:14 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
15:36:34 <Detlev> ack me
15:36:47 <Detlev>  this allows people to reuse the methodology in many more situations without actually broadening the scope of the document.
15:36:59 <shadi> DF: question on rational to resolution to ID #4
15:37:27 <shadi> ...what is the difference between broadening the scope and providing use cases?
15:37:33 <MartijnHoutepen> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120920#comment4
15:37:49 <shadi> ...had commented on not constraining the uses
15:38:07 <shadi> ...for example make usable during development
15:38:22 <shadi> ...but not sure why decision is "no change"
15:38:26 <shadi> q+
15:38:43 <shadi> ...not sure methodology needs to look very different
15:38:57 <shadi> ...maybe change the report and certainly not accessibility statement
15:39:14 <ericvelleman> q?
15:39:19 <shadi> ...think concern is that document will get complicated
15:39:20 <shadi> ack me
15:39:45 <shadi> q+
15:39:49 <shadi> EV: still on-going discussion
15:39:58 <shadi> ...e-mail thread going on
15:40:25 <shadi> ...seems to be mistake in the disposition of coments
15:40:33 <shadi> ...not the current rationale
15:40:37 <MartijnHoutepen> https://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff?doc1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2FER%2Fconformance%2FED-methodology-20120915&doc2=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2FER%2Fconformance%2FED-methodology-20121213#scope
15:41:43 <shadi> ack me
15:42:28 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-eval-minutes.html
15:42:45 <shadi> MK: also discussed not being able to make a statement of compliance when using during development
15:43:07 <ericvelleman> q?
15:44:22 <Detlev> Shadi: difference between broadening scope and introducing usecases - if we include option for using WCAG-EM during develoopment we may have scope crewep, users asdking for introducing extra things
15:45:00 <Detlev> Shadi: if we focus on main use case we can still encourage application of WCAG-EM in othe contexts / use cases
15:45:46 <shadi> DF: agree basically with that
15:46:04 <shadi> ...can specify main purpose
15:46:15 <shadi> ...but also explain and encourage use during development
15:46:28 <shadi> ...of course noting that will not lead to conformance
15:47:26 <Detlev> fine
15:48:09 <Tim> Tim has joined #eval
15:48:10 <shadi> EV: discussion still open on this
15:48:45 <shadi> Topic: Discussion in survey evaltfq6
15:48:55 <shadi> EV: valuable input from Detlev
15:49:17 <shadi> ...will reopen it and ask people to answer or edit their responses as needed
15:49:19 <Detlev> ack me
15:50:00 <shadi> DF: maybe good to remind people that they can go back and change their responses
15:50:09 <shadi> ...did not know about that feature
15:50:24 <shadi> ack me
15:51:21 <Detlev> you never get the same sense of overview on the mailing list!
15:52:05 <ericvelleman> q?
15:52:30 <shadi> EV: as long as comments are relatively concise it helps having it in one place
15:53:08 <shadi> EV: planning to do call next week
15:53:15 <shadi> ...then the next in January
15:53:21 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, unmute me
15:53:21 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should no longer be muted
15:53:22 <Detlev> bye
15:53:25 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
15:53:26 <Zakim> -Detlev
15:53:27 <Kathy> bye
15:53:27 <Zakim> -Kathy
15:53:28 <Zakim> -MartijnHoutepen
15:53:29 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:53:29 <Zakim> -Shadi
15:53:30 <ericvelleman> ericvelleman has left #eval
15:53:45 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
15:53:45 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:53:45 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been MartijnHoutepen, +31.30.239.aaaa, Kathy, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Detlev, ericvelleman, Shadi, MoeKraft, Tim_Boland
15:53:49 <Zakim> -ericvelleman
15:53:49 <Zakim> -MoeKraft
15:53:49 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
15:53:49 <Zakim> Attendees were MartijnHoutepen, +31.30.239.aaaa, Kathy, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Detlev, ericvelleman, Shadi, MoeKraft, Tim_Boland
15:53:50 <Tim> Tim has left #eval
15:53:52 <MartijnHoutepen> MartijnHoutepen has left #eval
15:53:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:53:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/13-eval-minutes.html trackbot
15:53:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:53:54 <RRSAgent> I see no action items