IRC log of rdf-wg on 2012-12-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:58:05 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:05 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/12-rdf-wg-irc
15:58:07 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:58:07 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:09 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 73394
15:58:09 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
15:58:10 [trackbot]
Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:58:10 [trackbot]
Date: 12 December 2012
15:59:44 [Zakim]
SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:59:52 [Zakim]
+??P4
16:00:16 [Zakim]
+ +31.20.598.aaaa
16:00:35 [Guus_]
zakim, +31.20 is me
16:00:35 [Zakim]
+Guus_; got it
16:00:38 [yvesr]
Zakim, ??P4 is me
16:00:39 [Zakim]
+yvesr; got it
16:00:41 [Zakim]
+OpenLink_Software
16:00:58 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:00:58 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
16:01:00 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
16:01:00 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
16:01:14 [MacTed]
MacTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG - http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ - current agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.12.12
16:01:36 [Guus_]
eric: can you scribe
16:01:43 [gkellogg]
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16:02:11 [Guus_]
zakim, who is here?
16:02:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see yvesr, Guus_, MacTed (muted)
16:02:12 [Zakim]
On IRC I see gkellogg, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus_, davidwood1, LeeF, MacTed, ivan, Arnaud, mischat, manu, ericP, manu1, trackbot, yvesr, sandro
16:02:51 [Guus_]
three of us here, waiting for others to join
16:03:09 [Zakim]
+Arnaud
16:03:12 [Zakim]
+LeeF
16:03:38 [zwu2]
zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:03:56 [Zakim]
+ivan
16:04:34 [Zakim]
+EricP
16:04:42 [PatH]
PatH has joined #rdf-wg
16:05:08 [Zakim]
+MHausenblas
16:05:09 [cygri]
cygri has joined #rdf-wg
16:05:21 [cygri]
zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
16:05:21 [Zakim]
+cygri; got it
16:06:16 [cygri]
scribe: cygri
16:06:20 [Zakim]
+PatH
16:06:22 [AndyS]
AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
16:06:36 [PatH]
zakim, mute me
16:06:36 [Zakim]
PatH should now be muted
16:07:18 [cygri]
chair: guus
16:07:24 [cygri]
agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.12.12
16:07:26 [cygri]
topic: Admin
16:07:48 [cygri]
PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 05 December telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-05
16:08:08 [zwu2]
got a phone problem...
16:08:18 [cygri]
RESOLUTION: Accept the minutes of the 05 December telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-05
16:08:32 [cygri]
Review of action items
16:08:33 [cygri]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
16:08:45 [cygri]
guus: I think sandro can claim success on one action
16:09:05 [cygri]
ACTION-217?
16:09:05 [trackbot]
ACTION-217 -- Sandro Hawke to produce an LALR grammar that supports "<a> <b> <c> ; ;" and "<a> <b> <c> ; ; ." -- due 2012-12-12 -- OPEN
16:09:05 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/217
16:10:08 [cygri]
topic: Turtle
16:10:32 [cygri]
guus: I18n came with a long list of responses just before the deadline we set
16:11:02 [cygri]
... I invited someone from i18n WG to join us
16:11:13 [cygri]
ericP: their meeting is in parallel
16:11:39 [cygri]
mail from addison: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Dec/0030.html
16:11:57 [ericP]
-> http://www.w3.org/mid/20121210234622.GE25523@w3.org -> ericP'
16:12:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.992.aabb
16:12:27 [cygri]
ericP: issue-178 is a nit about how BCP47 is referenced
16:12:29 [pfps]
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16:12:34 [AndyS1]
AndyS1 has joined #rdf-wg
16:12:42 [cygri]
... I pointed out where the reference is, and he was content with that
16:13:07 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/mid/131F80DEA635F044946897AFDA9AC34773A90CC92C@EX-SEA31-D.ant.amazon.com
16:13:17 [cygri]
guus: is his response on the mailing list?
16:13:22 [MacTed]
== http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2012OctDec/0133.html
16:13:33 [cygri]
ericP: it's on the www-international list
16:14:41 [cygri]
... issue-180, i fixed this everywhere except in the grammar, where we follow XML grammar convention. he was content with that.
16:15:32 [cygri]
... issue-183, we need good examples for integer, decimal and double
16:15:38 [cygri]
... for the shortcut notations
16:15:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.603.897.aacc
16:16:01 [ericP]
> @prefix : <http://example.org/elements> .
16:16:05 [ericP]
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium>
16:16:07 [AndyS]
AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
16:16:09 [cygri]
... the complaint was that i was using quantities without explicit units
16:16:09 [ericP]
> :atomicNumber 2 ; # xsd:integer
16:16:13 [ericP]
> :atomicMass 4.002602 ; # xsd:decimal
16:16:17 [ericP]
> :specificGravity 1.663E-4 . # xsd:double
16:16:45 [cygri]
... i came up with a chemistry example. he liked it. it might be a bit harder to approach. i can commit if the WG is ok with it
16:16:52 [PatH]
I like it, especially if it said in a squeaky voice.
16:17:13 [cygri]
guus: any objections to using it?
16:17:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.603.438.aadd
16:17:22 [cygri]
... none heard
16:17:33 [zwu2]
zakim, +1.603.438.aadd is me
16:17:33 [Zakim]
+zwu2; got it
16:17:36 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:17:54 [cygri]
ericP: (does the hg push dance in the background)
16:17:57 [AndyS]
zakim, IPcaller is me
16:17:57 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
16:18:13 [Souri]
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16:18:36 [cygri]
... issue-189 was effectively the same as issue-178
16:19:12 [cygri]
... issue-190 requires no action on our part, he agreed that staying aligned with XML is a reasonable choice
16:19:16 [cygri]
... that's all
16:19:33 [cygri]
guus: very good, that's not as bad as i thought
16:19:35 [PatH]
Well done Eric.
16:20:02 [cygri]
... it would be good if this was on record on our comments list
16:20:09 [cygri]
ericP: i'll try to bounce it there
16:20:43 [cygri]
subtopic: Left-recursive LALR(1) grammar for turtle
16:21:05 [cygri]
ericP: it would be very nice to publish with an LALR or LL1 grammar
16:21:17 [cygri]
... andy said that sandro's grammar has a shift-reduce conflict
16:21:34 [AndyS]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_recursion
16:21:36 [cygri]
... including those is unfortunate as it's bad for error reporting
16:21:45 [cygri]
... but we need to make progress
16:22:12 [cygri]
... propose adding a note that shows both productions
16:22:13 [AndyS]
The S/R error is silent in many systems (default is shift - see Bison reference)
16:22:38 [cygri]
... mark it as an at-risk feature in the next publication
16:22:40 [ivan]
q+
16:22:43 [Guus_]
q?
16:22:59 [cygri]
ivan: you think we can't go to CR?
16:23:07 [ericP]
<><><>;;;.
16:23:18 [cygri]
ericP: if we changed the language -- changed what's an acceptable turtle document...
16:23:20 [Arnaud]
didn't we go over this last week already??
16:23:32 [cygri]
ivan: if you mark the specific feature at-risk, then i don't see a problem
16:23:50 [cygri]
guus: we discussed this extensively last week
16:24:17 [AndyS]
q+ to ask why we replace one rule with one which creates probs for other people.
16:24:19 [cygri]
ericP: i just would like to make sure that the at-risk text mentions that we plan to find a grammar that's LALR1 and LL1 friendly
16:24:30 [ivan]
ack ivan
16:24:52 [PatH]
Aew we going to do that or are we inviting the world to ty to write one?
16:25:37 [PatH]
q?
16:26:27 [ericP]
PROPOSED: provide At Risk text which notes: 1 change from prior publication; 2 that the WG wants "<><><>;;;." to be legal; 3 that we will look for a grammar representation which produces no S/R conflicts in LL(1) or LALR(1)
16:26:49 [cygri]
ericP: this should be possible, as SPARQL grammar doesn't have conflicts
16:27:53 [cygri]
AndyS: i thought the agreement was to keep the grammar from sparql, and add a note saying how it can be done with a different grammar
16:28:14 [cygri]
ericP: I believe that's a change from the previous publication
16:28:51 [cygri]
AndyS: we shouldn't be making life more difficult for some people just to make it easier for some others.
16:29:11 [cygri]
ericP: what's wrong with finding a grammar that works for both?
16:29:43 [cygri]
[scribe can't keep up]
16:30:05 [Guus_]
let's summarize later, richard
16:30:29 [AndyS]
SPARQL -- [77] PropertyListNotEmpty ::= Verb ObjectList ( ';' ( Verb ObjectList )? )*
16:30:42 [cygri]
ericP: i think we could make a grammar that is LL1 and LALR1 friendly. but that would take too much time.
16:31:18 [cygri]
AndyS: we would then have different grammars for turtle and sparql
16:32:04 [cygri]
ericP: what's the concern with finding a LALR1 friendly expression?
16:34:35 [AndyS]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Dec/0025.html
16:34:56 [cygri]
ericP: the SPARQL grammar has no shift-reduce conflict, but the same grammar rules produce a shift-reduce conflict in turtle because the context is different
16:36:33 [cygri]
[disagreement whether the current grammar produces a S/R conflict or not]
16:37:35 [PatH]
Hey, the Pope just tweeted.
16:38:02 [LeeF]
:-)
16:38:10 [AndyS]
I do not support the text but will not object.
16:38:19 [Arnaud]
+1
16:38:25 [ivan]
+1
16:38:37 [ericP]
+1
16:38:41 [zwu2]
+0
16:38:42 [ivan]
+1
16:38:44 [cygri]
±0
16:38:47 [PatH]
+0
16:38:51 [MacTed]
+0
16:38:57 [Souri]
0
16:39:12 [yvesr]
0
16:39:46 [cygri]
ivan: having an at-risk on a minor detail like that is the way to go, shouldn't hold up CR
16:39:56 [LeeF]
+1
16:40:07 [cygri]
ericP: but the question is whether it should also say that we may still tweak the grammar
16:40:11 [AndyS]
Alternative proposal -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Dec/0025.html
16:40:35 [cygri]
RESOLUTION: provide At Risk text which notes: 1 change from prior publication; 2 that the WG wants "<><><>;;;." to be legal; 3 that we will look for a grammar representation which produces no S/R conflicts in LL(1) or LALR(1)
16:40:53 [cygri]
AndyS: alternative proposal is for the record
16:41:28 [cygri]
guus: ivan, would it be okay to make CR proposal given that it was not on the agenda?
16:41:31 [cygri]
ivan: yes
16:41:56 [ericP]
-> dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html editor's draft of Turtle Spec
16:42:07 [ericP]
-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html editor's draft of Turtle Spec
16:42:16 [ivan]
+1
16:43:31 [ericP]
PROPOSAL: that the Rdf WG ask for a transition of the Turtle Spec from LC to CR
16:44:13 [cygri]
subtopic: CR transition
16:45:25 [cygri]
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/402f2133f823/rdf-turtle/index.html
16:45:25 [ericP]
PROPOSAL: that the Rdf WG ask the director for a transition of the Turtle Spec <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html> from Last Call to Candidate Rec
16:45:53 [Arnaud]
+1
16:45:54 [ivan]
+1
16:45:56 [swh]
swh has joined #rdf-wg
16:45:58 [Guus_]
+1
16:45:58 [yvesr]
+1
16:45:59 [ericP]
+1
16:45:59 [cygri]
+1
16:46:01 [zwu2]
1
16:46:01 [MacTed]
+1
16:46:09 [Souri]
+1
16:46:15 [pfps]
+1
16:46:38 [ericP]
RESOLVED: that the Rdf WG ask the director for a transition of the Turtle Spec <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html> from Last Call to Candidate Rec
16:46:51 [cygri]
guus: would like to thank the editors
16:47:14 [ericP]
ACTION: guus to write Turtle CR transtion request
16:47:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-218 - Write Turtle CR transtion request [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-12-19].
16:47:17 [cygri]
... i will write the transition request, may need some input from the eds
16:47:34 [cygri]
ivan: target publication date would be 1st or 2nd week of january
16:48:07 [cygri]
... there has to be one week between the request for transition and the transition itself
16:48:47 [cygri]
... the final version has to be frozen and goes to the transition call
16:48:58 [cygri]
... when can you cast it in concrete?
16:49:07 [cygri]
ericP: tomorrow, today, when is it needed?
16:49:28 [cygri]
guus: i would like to have a frozen version as quick as we can
16:50:01 [cygri]
ivan: we need five business day between transition request and transition call
16:50:15 [cygri]
guus: can we have the call end of next week?
16:50:37 [cygri]
ivan: we could try next week friday if the request goes out tomorrow
16:51:11 [cygri]
... assuming ralph is around
16:51:45 [cygri]
guus: so if the request goes out next week, we can have the call first business week of january
16:52:54 [cygri]
... one more topic for the CR transition is testing
16:53:06 [cygri]
... i'll put it on the agenda next week
16:53:28 [ericP]
scribenick: ericP
16:53:33 [ericP]
topic: JSON-LD
16:54:13 [Guus_]
zakim, who is here?
16:54:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see yvesr, Guus_, MacTed (muted), Arnaud (muted), LeeF, ivan, EricP, cygri, PatH (muted), +1.408.992.aabb, +1.603.897.aacc, zwu2, AndyS
16:54:15 [Zakim]
On IRC I see swh, Souri, AndyS, pfps, cygri, PatH, zwu2, gkellogg, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus_, davidwood1, LeeF, MacTed, ivan, Arnaud, mischat, manu, ericP, manu1, trackbot, yvesr,
16:54:15 [Zakim]
... sandro
16:55:15 [ericP]
guus: i tried to push some work from your plate to the task force. did that work?
16:55:22 [ericP]
cygri: not sure if there's been progress?
16:55:30 [ericP]
topic: RDF Concepts
16:55:51 [ericP]
guus: last week, we agreed to publish, presuming agreement of the editors
16:56:01 [ericP]
... pfps published a review just afterwards
16:56:21 [ericP]
cygri: pfps and antoine gave many good comments
16:56:33 [ericP]
... they agreed to publish if we could address them
16:56:40 [ericP]
... that was the outcome of two weeks ago
16:56:50 [Zakim]
-LeeF
16:57:10 [ericP]
... i haven't updated the doc to reflect these comments, but they all seem feasible
16:57:13 [tlr]
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16:57:21 [ericP]
... at the worst, there will be some new issue text
16:57:27 [tlr]
if you can wrap up now, that would be hugely appreciated
16:58:10 [tlr]
yes
16:59:01 [ericP]
ivan: if denis has the text in hand today, he can publish tomorrow
16:59:31 [ericP]
cygri: today boston time means next 4 hours. i *think* i can pull this off
17:00:21 [ericP]
... i'd like to get this off my plate
17:00:33 [Zakim]
-PatH
17:00:43 [PatH]
bye all.
17:00:46 [zwu2]
bye
17:00:48 [Zakim]
- +1.408.992.aabb
17:00:50 [Zakim]
-MacTed
17:00:50 [Zakim]
- +1.603.897.aacc
17:00:52 [Zakim]
-zwu2
17:00:52 [Zakim]
-yvesr
17:00:52 [tlr]
thanks!
17:00:56 [Zakim]
-cygri
17:00:56 [Zakim]
-Arnaud
17:00:56 [Zakim]
-ivan
17:00:59 [cygri]
ivan, just to confirm
17:01:06 [Zakim]
-AndyS
17:01:10 [ivan]
yes?
17:01:11 [cygri]
what exactly do i send to whom?
17:01:12 [Zakim]
-EricP
17:01:45 [ivan]
Denis Ah-Kang <denis@w3.org>, copy to webreq@w3.org
17:01:53 [tlr]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:01:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Guus_
17:01:57 [tlr]
zakim, drop Guus_
17:01:57 [Zakim]
Guus_ is being disconnected
17:01:58 [Zakim]
SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
17:01:58 [Zakim]
Attendees were +31.20.598.aaaa, Guus_, yvesr, MacTed, Arnaud, LeeF, ivan, EricP, cygri, PatH, +1.408.992.aabb, +1.603.897.aacc, zwu2, AndyS
17:02:10 [cygri]
excellent, ivan. what do i need to provide along with the link?
17:02:24 [cygri]
just the url or anything else?
17:02:29 [ivan]
richard, I will draft and send an official publication request
17:02:33 [ivan]
cc to you
17:02:41 [cygri]
ok great
17:02:45 [ivan]
and then you will have to send him the exact URI where the text is
17:02:53 [ivan]
whenever it is done
17:03:08 [cygri]
awesome. i'll go do my editing then
17:03:47 [cygri]
thanks a lot ivan!
17:05:54 [davidwood]
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17:10:26 [ericP]
-> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-12#RDF_Concepts meeting minutes
17:12:11 [ericP]
-> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-11-28#line0172 decision to publish Concepts
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