IRC log of mlw-lt on 2012-12-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:55:40 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/10-mlw-lt-irc
15:55:48 [fsasaki]
meeting: MLW-LT WG
15:55:49 [fsasaki]
chair: Felix
15:56:08 [daveL]
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15:56:29 [fsasaki]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0042.html
15:56:40 [fsasaki]
topic: roll call
15:56:49 [fsasaki]
present+ daveL, dF, fsasaki
15:57:06 [fsasaki]
checking attendees ...
15:57:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/10-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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15:58:09 [fsasaki]
regrets+ dom
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present+ kfritsche
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present+ mdelolmo
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present+ leroy
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present +philr
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/10-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/10-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
16:02:19 [Jirka]
present +Jirka
16:02:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/10-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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present+ Ankit
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16:03:20 [fsasaki]
scribe: dF
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16:03:44 [Clemens]
present +
16:03:46 [Arle]
present+ Arle
16:03:49 [Yves_]
present+ Yves_
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16:03:56 [Clemens]
present+
16:03:56 [chriLi]
present+ chriLi
16:04:02 [Clemens]
present+ clemens
16:04:11 [Des]
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16:04:14 [joerg]
present+ joerg
16:04:20 [Des]
present+ Des
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present+ olaf-michael
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16:04:59 [fsasaki]
topic: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0042.html
16:05:07 [pnietoca]
present+ pnietoca
16:05:43 [dF]
fsasaki: comments on agenda?
16:05:48 [fsasaki]
topic: Outreach to get LC feedback
16:06:05 [dF]
.. no comments on agenda
16:06:06 [Milan]
present+ Milan
16:06:43 [dF]
.. announcement through linkedIn dicussed
16:06:47 [present_Naoto]
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16:06:53 [dF]
.. but we now prefer direct contact
16:07:22 [dF]
.. it is importnat to get feedback from the right people to specific sections
16:07:48 [dF]
.. DFKI is tracking the call for reviews
16:08:07 [dF]
.. e.g. mtConfidence by MT people
16:08:27 [dF]
.. It is very bad if you get many hundreds of comments
16:09:08 [dF]
.. but it is also bad to get only a few dozen. This might indicate to the w3c mgmt that the public is not interested
16:09:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/10-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
16:09:40 [dF]
daveL: reaching out to specific people and also re implementation interest
16:09:52 [dF]
.. the goal is to get feedback re usability
16:10:11 [dF]
fsasaski: Those are good points: implementations and usability
16:10:35 [dF]
daveL: Do we have some wording for the public announcement?
16:10:38 [fsasaki]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0025.html
16:11:13 [dF]
daveL: technical people might be busy, but if they bosses see the announcement, it might help drive the reviews
16:11:41 [dF]
fsasaki: I posted link to announcement for tech audience, but can be tweaked
16:12:40 [fsasaki]
present+ serge
16:12:41 [omstefanov]
I can distribute it to JIAMCATT, but please, you guys, share your texts with me/us.
16:12:49 [Naoto]
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16:12:52 [dF]
action: dF to tweak the text for business audience
16:12:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-363 - Tweak the text for business audience [on David Filip - due 2012-12-17].
16:14:05 [fsasaki]
action: arle to nudge serge to send text about last call announcement to arle
16:14:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-364 - Nudge serge to send text about last call announcement to arle [on Arle Lommel - due 2012-12-17].
16:14:05 [Arle]
Action: Serge to send Arle his text for public announcement.
16:14:05 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find Serge. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/users>.
16:14:50 [dF]
http://irc.w3.org/
16:15:17 [dF]
fsasaki: another outreach effort before xmas
16:15:37 [dF]
.. localization professionals group on linkedIn
16:16:05 [dF]
Arle: we do not want to confuse people
16:16:21 [dF]
.. this week we should post on the mlw workshop in March
16:16:34 [dF]
.. next week for public review
16:17:02 [dF]
Serge: I would have it the other way round, since there is plenty of time till March
16:17:23 [fsasaki]
topic: Work items needed on the draft
16:17:25 [dF]
Felix: This is important to announce before xmas break to boost speakers
16:17:41 [fsasaki]
topic: handling of last call comments
16:17:59 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Comments_Handling
16:18:07 [Serge]
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16:18:19 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Comments_Handling
16:18:32 [dF]
fsasaki: People need to be aware of the comment answering process, it is a painful process but very important
16:18:41 [dF]
.. se the wiki page on the posted link
16:19:04 [dF]
.. the whole WG is automatically on the comment list.
16:19:29 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Comments_Handling#Processing_of_comments
16:19:40 [dF]
.. everyone who is not yet formally on the WG should subscribe to the comments list
16:20:13 [dF]
.. Every comment receives a new Issue on the tracker, same as we were tracking the issues bfeore LC
16:20:38 [dF]
.. we now need to be very careful to have track record on changes
16:21:03 [dF]
daveL: Do we really have distinct issue for every comment, or can we group?
16:21:42 [dF]
fsasaki: the baseline is that we need to document resolutions along with comment submitter e-mail reactions
16:22:10 [dF]
..there is no rule on grouping, but it may be as well easier to track them individually even if similar
16:22:37 [dF]
daveL: What if they are distracted and do not reply back after we've made changes
16:22:51 [dF]
fsasaki: again no clear rule..
16:23:11 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Comments_Handling#Tracker_handling
16:23:20 [dF]
.. but if they do not come back within a reasonable timeframe we are OK with documenting that we've tried to get the response
16:24:04 [dF]
fsasaki: This is mainly for co-chairs, as we need to keep track of the comments, can add notes, kewords
16:24:13 [dF]
.. to keep track
16:24:26 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Comments_Handling#Generation_of_Disposition_of_Comments
16:24:31 [dF]
.. the keywords are important for disposition of comments
16:24:38 [fsasaki]
http://tinyurl.com/its20-comments-handling
16:24:57 [dF]
.. using this keywords we create a DB dump that is displayed via an XSLT
16:25:40 [dF]
.. this is just an example, as we did not have LC comments, this is just to show how the keywods work
16:26:18 [dF]
.. I am going to update this style sheet so that it reflects the LC
16:26:29 [dF]
.. we have two WG commnets from Yves
16:26:44 [dF]
.. we might find time to cover them today
16:27:29 [dF]
.. at the end of LC we will have a document with all comments resolved, accepted or rejected and all changes editorial, NOT substantial
16:28:00 [dF]
.. it is important to be structured and keep track of the issue #
16:28:15 [dF]
daveL: substantive change would require new LC?
16:29:06 [dF]
fsasaki: yes, it would mean at least 3 week delay, and we do need to wait to the end of the first last call and dicpose of all commnets before issuing a new one
16:29:45 [dF]
.. it actually would not save time, to jump to new LC before disposing of ALL comments from the previous LC
16:29:58 [Yves_]
yes
16:30:00 [fsasaki]
topic: Work items needed on the draft
16:30:49 [dF]
fsasaki: In LC we mean that normative sections are stable
16:31:01 [dF]
.. but sections 1 and 2 are not stable
16:31:20 [dF]
.. Christian sent comments to co-editors
16:31:32 [dF]
.. explanatory material also needs to be right
16:31:37 [fsasaki]
* edit together. in various online editing calls.
16:31:59 [dF]
.. we need to decide on plan for editong these explanatory sections with Christian's comments
16:32:01 [fsasaki]
* find heros who can go through the sections and send the outcome to the group
16:32:28 [dF]
.. editing together works well, but takes a lot of time of many people..
16:32:30 [tadej]
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16:32:44 [fsasaki]
present+ tadej
16:32:46 [dF]
.. wee need volunteer heroes who first edit off line
16:33:22 [dF]
daveL: we need volunteers to look at the content along with Christian's comments in advance of an editing call
16:33:26 [Fredrik]
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16:33:40 [dF]
.. I'd be happy to take a few, but not before xmas
16:34:02 [dF]
Phil: I'd take the quality sections
16:34:18 [dF]
fsasaki: these are not under discussion now
16:34:32 [dF]
.. could someone start the work before xmas?
16:35:01 [fsasaki]
"sections 1-2"
16:35:21 [dF]
Naoto: are we talking introduction and basic concepts?
16:35:35 [dF]
.. I read through it today, I found typos
16:35:50 [dF]
fsasaki: can you send the typos?
16:35:59 [fsasaki]
action: naoto to send typos etc. about sec 1-2 etc. to the comments list
16:36:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-365 - Send typos etc. about sec 1-2 etc. to the comments list [on Naoto Nishio - due 2012-12-17].
16:36:38 [dF]
Action: Naoto: to compile comments on sections 1 and 2 along with Christians comments and to send to comment list
16:36:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-366 - Compile comments on sections 1 and 2 along with Christians comments and to send to comment list [on Naoto Nishio - due 2012-12-17].
16:37:18 [dF]
action: Felix to look into Naoto's edits and other fedback from Aron with Opera
16:37:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-367 - Look into Naoto's edits and other fedback from Aron with Opera [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-17].
16:37:42 [fsasaki_]
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16:37:55 [fsasaki_]
action: felix to look into christian's edits and into the other feedback on sec 1-2 we got so far
16:37:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-368 - Look into christian's edits and into the other feedback on sec 1-2 we got so far [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-17].
16:38:05 [fsasaki_]
action: felix to look into christian's edits and into the other feedback on sec 1-2 we got so far
16:38:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-369 - Look into christian's edits and into the other feedback on sec 1-2 we got so far [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-17].
16:38:48 [dF]
Christian: Whatever creates less noice, happy to resolve with co-editors
16:39:24 [dF]
fsasaki: I propose to move the above till the end of the year
16:39:34 [dF]
.. everybody OK with that?
16:39:39 [fsasaki_]
topic: tests needed
16:39:42 [dF]
Phil: This makes sense
16:40:02 [dF]
fsasaki: I created a wiki page re testing
16:40:27 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Ownership_of_rfc2119_statements
16:40:36 [dF]
.. Olaf had input on that, thanks
16:40:54 [dF]
.. this is autogenerated
16:41:01 [dF]
.. the wiki markup is bad..
16:41:18 [dF]
the baseline it is a table of MUST and MUST NOT statements
16:41:27 [dF]
.. each has a separate row
16:41:49 [dF]
.. column 4 is importnat
16:42:07 [dF]
.. data category owners need to provide tests
16:42:24 [dF]
.. most of the statements are covered with testsuite or schema
16:42:39 [dF]
.. some are not, we need a good stror for them
16:42:50 [dF]
.. we need to explain how to verify these..
16:43:16 [dF]
.. it is not always possible to have a test in the current test suite framework.
16:43:38 [dF]
.. There should be always a good story, why something is not tested
16:44:08 [dF]
Olaf: you saw from my e-mail that about quarter is identical
16:44:25 [dF]
.. I see now that it is because of being auto-generated..
16:44:32 [Marcis]
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16:44:47 [dF]
.. pruning down would ease going trough it
16:45:15 [dF]
fsasaki: we are looking for somebody to do the testing for each row
16:45:36 [dF]
.. but testing might not be always required
16:46:01 [dF]
.. feedback on quality from Daniel
16:46:27 [dF]
.. generated many MUST statements that are hard to test in a machine readable way
16:46:52 [dF]
.. still there is a way how to verify, e.g. have examples for human judgement
16:47:19 [dF]
.. is this answer OK?
16:47:30 [dF]
Olaf: I understand
16:47:41 [dF]
action: felix to downsize the table
16:47:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-370 - Downsize the table [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-17].
16:48:10 [dF]
fsasaki: looking for volunteers to address rows
16:48:25 [Arle]
Arle for quality rows
16:48:31 [dF]
.. please type your name in IRC aginst data categories
16:49:09 [dF]
Action: Arle to dispose of quality related rows in the table
16:49:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-371 - Dispose of quality related rows in the table [on Arle Lommel - due 2012-12-17].
16:49:30 [dF]
Phil: still unclear, would we provide example files?
16:49:52 [dF]
fsasaki: Eve with example files, the machine test might not be possible..
16:50:16 [dF]
.. how could a machine decide if something is e.g. semantically acurate
16:50:27 [dF]
.. we can define test for human testers
16:50:40 [dF]
.. is it clear?
16:50:51 [dF]
Phil: It is
16:51:22 [dF]
.. Lot of quality related rows, is that a generation issues?
16:51:57 [dF]
fsasaki: This is due to automatic generation, not very useful in the current state..
16:52:18 [philr]
I will take alook at the 5 or 6 loc quality related ones.
16:52:31 [philr]
s/alook/a look
16:53:04 [dF]
action: Phil to dispose of quality issues related ones
16:53:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-372 - Dispose of quality issues related ones [on Phil Ritchie - due 2012-12-17].
16:53:40 [dF]
daveL: we probaly have the positive statements covered by the test suite
16:53:55 [dF]
.. we probably also need to go through the negative
16:54:02 [fsasaki]
topic: best practices topics
16:54:14 [fsasaki]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0040.html
16:54:43 [fsasaki]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0041.html
16:54:56 [dF]
fsasaki: various areas, e.g. ITS to XLIFF mapping
16:55:06 [dF]
.. se the posted link..
16:55:20 [dF]
.. BP are not mandatory
16:55:30 [dF]
.. they need manpower
16:55:51 [dF]
.. if someone needs editing set up, please contact co-chairs
16:56:05 [dF]
Arle: I will work on quality
16:56:20 [dF]
fsasaki: quality is not yet on the list
16:56:46 [dF]
Arle: I need to work on it anything for QT launchpad, so thet group gets it for free..
16:56:55 [Clemens]
Felix, I've to go... is there something you need me for, now?
16:57:03 [dF]
fsasaki: The WG is not just publication cahnnel
16:57:15 [dF]
.. it is a time consuming process
16:57:43 [dF]
.. even though not nornmative it needs to be drafted, reviewed and OKed by the group
16:58:06 [dF]
daveL: I agree we do not try and revive the requirements document
16:58:19 [dF]
.. we should adress high level use cases
16:58:41 [dF]
.. I'd look into provenance..
16:59:03 [dF]
.. Another worthu topic would be integration of text analytics into MT
16:59:12 [fsasaki]
topic: testing / milestones
16:59:13 [fsasaki]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgIk0-aoSKOadG5HQmJDT2EybWVvVC1VbnF5alN2S3c#gid=0
16:59:40 [dF]
fsasaki: this is the latest state of testing commitments
16:59:46 [daveL_]
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16:59:56 [dF]
.. thanks for testing webinar to Dom and leroy
17:00:06 [dF]
.. next milestone is Dec 17
17:00:25 [dF]
.. Does any one have issue with the next week milestone?
17:00:47 [dF]
.. The alternatives are one category completely
17:01:03 [dF]
Phill: We are in good shape
17:01:10 [Fredrik]
Fredrik: It's ok with Enlaso
17:01:24 [dF]
fsasaki: Please report if you have issue with the milestone
17:01:40 [dF]
Olaf: Does it mean to get to all gree by next week?
17:01:58 [dF]
fsasaki: no, we have milestones
17:02:57 [dF]
.. implementation plan is not about the colours at this stage, but about meeting the milestones as sepcified above the table
17:03:33 [dF]
.. we want conformant tests, but now it is about making progress
17:04:00 [dF]
.. Other items we can address next week
17:04:47 [fsasaki]
https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/open
17:04:49 [dF]
.. Arle posted a draft
17:05:04 [dF]
.. now looking into action items
17:05:13 [dF]
.. feedback for annual report
17:05:28 [dF]
.. many are due today
17:05:40 [dF]
.. does that work for everyone?
17:06:23 [dF]
Phil: I sent a Google doc last week
17:06:47 [dF]
fsasaki: it is not important to have loads of stuff, one or two paragraphs is OK
17:08:10 [dF]
Arle: no template
17:08:18 [dF]
.. just vanila html
17:08:35 [dF]
fsasaki: Arle, can you post the link again?
17:08:41 [Arle]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/2012-annual-report/
17:09:24 [fsasaki]
present+ des
17:09:40 [dF]
Des: due date?
17:10:01 [dF]
Arle: nothing specifically from you, unless you really want to..
17:10:09 [dF]
.. this is for section leaders
17:10:17 [dF]
.. in the LT-Web
17:11:23 [dF]
I can do it by Wed COB
17:11:31 [dF]
fsasaki: AOB?
17:12:02 [dF]
.. next week we will continue LC comments and Christian commnets to non-nomative stuff
17:12:20 [dF]
.. AOB?
17:12:26 [dF]
.. Adjourned
17:12:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/10-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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