15:55:40 RRSAgent has joined #mlw-lt 15:55:40 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/10-mlw-lt-irc 15:55:48 meeting: MLW-LT WG 15:55:49 chair: Felix 15:56:08 daveL has joined #mlw-lt 15:56:29 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0042.html 15:56:40 topic: roll call 15:56:49 present+ daveL, dF, fsasaki 15:57:06 checking attendees ... 15:57:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/10-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 15:57:28 kfritsche has joined #mlw-lt 15:58:09 regrets+ dom 15:58:50 mdelolmo has joined #mlw-lt 15:59:27 present+ kfritsche 15:59:45 leroy has joined #mlw-lt 15:59:47 present+ mdelolmo 16:00:11 present+ leroy 16:00:47 philr has joined #mlw-lt 16:00:50 present +philr 16:01:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/10-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 16:01:31 Jirka has joined #mlw-lt 16:01:46 giuseppe has joined #mlw-lt 16:01:57 Clemens has joined #mlw-lt 16:02:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/10-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 16:02:19 present +Jirka 16:02:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/10-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 16:02:27 Ankit has joined #mlw-lt 16:02:27 omstefanov has joined #mlw-lt 16:02:32 Arle has joined #mlw-lt 16:02:34 present+ Ankit 16:03:09 chriLi has joined #mlw-lt 16:03:20 scribe: dF 16:03:36 Yves_ has joined #mlw-lt 16:03:44 present + 16:03:46 present+ Arle 16:03:49 present+ Yves_ 16:03:50 joerg has joined #mlw-lt 16:03:56 present+ 16:03:56 present+ chriLi 16:04:02 present+ clemens 16:04:11 Des has joined #mlw-lt 16:04:14 present+ joerg 16:04:20 present+ Des 16:04:26 pnietoca has joined #mlw-lt 16:04:31 present+ olaf-michael 16:04:38 Milan has joined #mlw-lt 16:04:59 topic: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0042.html 16:05:07 present+ pnietoca 16:05:43 fsasaki: comments on agenda? 16:05:48 topic: Outreach to get LC feedback 16:06:05 .. no comments on agenda 16:06:06 present+ Milan 16:06:43 .. announcement through linkedIn dicussed 16:06:47 present_Naoto has joined #mlw-lt 16:06:53 .. but we now prefer direct contact 16:07:22 .. it is importnat to get feedback from the right people to specific sections 16:07:48 .. DFKI is tracking the call for reviews 16:08:07 .. e.g. mtConfidence by MT people 16:08:27 .. It is very bad if you get many hundreds of comments 16:09:08 .. but it is also bad to get only a few dozen. This might indicate to the w3c mgmt that the public is not interested 16:09:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/10-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 16:09:40 daveL: reaching out to specific people and also re implementation interest 16:09:52 .. the goal is to get feedback re usability 16:10:11 fsasaski: Those are good points: implementations and usability 16:10:35 daveL: Do we have some wording for the public announcement? 16:10:38 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0025.html 16:11:13 daveL: technical people might be busy, but if they bosses see the announcement, it might help drive the reviews 16:11:41 fsasaki: I posted link to announcement for tech audience, but can be tweaked 16:12:40 present+ serge 16:12:41 I can distribute it to JIAMCATT, but please, you guys, share your texts with me/us. 16:12:49 Naoto has joined #mlw-lt 16:12:52 action: dF to tweak the text for business audience 16:12:53 Created ACTION-363 - Tweak the text for business audience [on David Filip - due 2012-12-17]. 16:14:05 action: arle to nudge serge to send text about last call announcement to arle 16:14:05 Created ACTION-364 - Nudge serge to send text about last call announcement to arle [on Arle Lommel - due 2012-12-17]. 16:14:05 Action: Serge to send Arle his text for public announcement. 16:14:05 Sorry, couldn't find Serge. You can review and register nicknames at . 16:14:50 http://irc.w3.org/ 16:15:17 fsasaki: another outreach effort before xmas 16:15:37 .. localization professionals group on linkedIn 16:16:05 Arle: we do not want to confuse people 16:16:21 .. this week we should post on the mlw workshop in March 16:16:34 .. next week for public review 16:17:02 Serge: I would have it the other way round, since there is plenty of time till March 16:17:23 topic: Work items needed on the draft 16:17:25 Felix: This is important to announce before xmas break to boost speakers 16:17:41 topic: handling of last call comments 16:17:59 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Comments_Handling 16:18:07 Serge has joined #mlw-lt 16:18:19 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Comments_Handling 16:18:32 fsasaki: People need to be aware of the comment answering process, it is a painful process but very important 16:18:41 .. se the wiki page on the posted link 16:19:04 .. the whole WG is automatically on the comment list. 16:19:29 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Comments_Handling#Processing_of_comments 16:19:40 .. everyone who is not yet formally on the WG should subscribe to the comments list 16:20:13 .. Every comment receives a new Issue on the tracker, same as we were tracking the issues bfeore LC 16:20:38 .. we now need to be very careful to have track record on changes 16:21:03 daveL: Do we really have distinct issue for every comment, or can we group? 16:21:42 fsasaki: the baseline is that we need to document resolutions along with comment submitter e-mail reactions 16:22:10 ..there is no rule on grouping, but it may be as well easier to track them individually even if similar 16:22:37 daveL: What if they are distracted and do not reply back after we've made changes 16:22:51 fsasaki: again no clear rule.. 16:23:11 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Comments_Handling#Tracker_handling 16:23:20 .. but if they do not come back within a reasonable timeframe we are OK with documenting that we've tried to get the response 16:24:04 fsasaki: This is mainly for co-chairs, as we need to keep track of the comments, can add notes, kewords 16:24:13 .. to keep track 16:24:26 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Comments_Handling#Generation_of_Disposition_of_Comments 16:24:31 .. the keywords are important for disposition of comments 16:24:38 http://tinyurl.com/its20-comments-handling 16:24:57 .. using this keywords we create a DB dump that is displayed via an XSLT 16:25:40 .. this is just an example, as we did not have LC comments, this is just to show how the keywods work 16:26:18 .. I am going to update this style sheet so that it reflects the LC 16:26:29 .. we have two WG commnets from Yves 16:26:44 .. we might find time to cover them today 16:27:29 .. at the end of LC we will have a document with all comments resolved, accepted or rejected and all changes editorial, NOT substantial 16:28:00 .. it is important to be structured and keep track of the issue # 16:28:15 daveL: substantive change would require new LC? 16:29:06 fsasaki: yes, it would mean at least 3 week delay, and we do need to wait to the end of the first last call and dicpose of all commnets before issuing a new one 16:29:45 .. it actually would not save time, to jump to new LC before disposing of ALL comments from the previous LC 16:29:58 yes 16:30:00 topic: Work items needed on the draft 16:30:49 fsasaki: In LC we mean that normative sections are stable 16:31:01 .. but sections 1 and 2 are not stable 16:31:20 .. Christian sent comments to co-editors 16:31:32 .. explanatory material also needs to be right 16:31:37 * edit together. in various online editing calls. 16:31:59 .. we need to decide on plan for editong these explanatory sections with Christian's comments 16:32:01 * find heros who can go through the sections and send the outcome to the group 16:32:28 .. editing together works well, but takes a lot of time of many people.. 16:32:30 tadej has joined #mlw-lt 16:32:44 present+ tadej 16:32:46 .. wee need volunteer heroes who first edit off line 16:33:22 daveL: we need volunteers to look at the content along with Christian's comments in advance of an editing call 16:33:26 Fredrik has joined #mlw-lt 16:33:40 .. I'd be happy to take a few, but not before xmas 16:34:02 Phil: I'd take the quality sections 16:34:18 fsasaki: these are not under discussion now 16:34:32 .. could someone start the work before xmas? 16:35:01 "sections 1-2" 16:35:21 Naoto: are we talking introduction and basic concepts? 16:35:35 .. I read through it today, I found typos 16:35:50 fsasaki: can you send the typos? 16:35:59 action: naoto to send typos etc. about sec 1-2 etc. to the comments list 16:36:00 Created ACTION-365 - Send typos etc. about sec 1-2 etc. to the comments list [on Naoto Nishio - due 2012-12-17]. 16:36:38 Action: Naoto: to compile comments on sections 1 and 2 along with Christians comments and to send to comment list 16:36:38 Created ACTION-366 - Compile comments on sections 1 and 2 along with Christians comments and to send to comment list [on Naoto Nishio - due 2012-12-17]. 16:37:18 action: Felix to look into Naoto's edits and other fedback from Aron with Opera 16:37:18 Created ACTION-367 - Look into Naoto's edits and other fedback from Aron with Opera [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-17]. 16:37:42 fsasaki_ has joined #mlw-lt 16:37:55 action: felix to look into christian's edits and into the other feedback on sec 1-2 we got so far 16:37:55 Created ACTION-368 - Look into christian's edits and into the other feedback on sec 1-2 we got so far [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-17]. 16:38:05 action: felix to look into christian's edits and into the other feedback on sec 1-2 we got so far 16:38:05 Created ACTION-369 - Look into christian's edits and into the other feedback on sec 1-2 we got so far [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-17]. 16:38:48 Christian: Whatever creates less noice, happy to resolve with co-editors 16:39:24 fsasaki: I propose to move the above till the end of the year 16:39:34 .. everybody OK with that? 16:39:39 topic: tests needed 16:39:42 Phil: This makes sense 16:40:02 fsasaki: I created a wiki page re testing 16:40:27 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Ownership_of_rfc2119_statements 16:40:36 .. Olaf had input on that, thanks 16:40:54 .. this is autogenerated 16:41:01 .. the wiki markup is bad.. 16:41:18 the baseline it is a table of MUST and MUST NOT statements 16:41:27 .. each has a separate row 16:41:49 .. column 4 is importnat 16:42:07 .. data category owners need to provide tests 16:42:24 .. most of the statements are covered with testsuite or schema 16:42:39 .. some are not, we need a good stror for them 16:42:50 .. we need to explain how to verify these.. 16:43:16 .. it is not always possible to have a test in the current test suite framework. 16:43:38 .. There should be always a good story, why something is not tested 16:44:08 Olaf: you saw from my e-mail that about quarter is identical 16:44:25 .. I see now that it is because of being auto-generated.. 16:44:32 Marcis has joined #mlw-lt 16:44:47 .. pruning down would ease going trough it 16:45:15 fsasaki: we are looking for somebody to do the testing for each row 16:45:36 .. but testing might not be always required 16:46:01 .. feedback on quality from Daniel 16:46:27 .. generated many MUST statements that are hard to test in a machine readable way 16:46:52 .. still there is a way how to verify, e.g. have examples for human judgement 16:47:19 .. is this answer OK? 16:47:30 Olaf: I understand 16:47:41 action: felix to downsize the table 16:47:42 Created ACTION-370 - Downsize the table [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-17]. 16:48:10 fsasaki: looking for volunteers to address rows 16:48:25 Arle for quality rows 16:48:31 .. please type your name in IRC aginst data categories 16:49:09 Action: Arle to dispose of quality related rows in the table 16:49:09 Created ACTION-371 - Dispose of quality related rows in the table [on Arle Lommel - due 2012-12-17]. 16:49:30 Phil: still unclear, would we provide example files? 16:49:52 fsasaki: Eve with example files, the machine test might not be possible.. 16:50:16 .. how could a machine decide if something is e.g. semantically acurate 16:50:27 .. we can define test for human testers 16:50:40 .. is it clear? 16:50:51 Phil: It is 16:51:22 .. Lot of quality related rows, is that a generation issues? 16:51:57 fsasaki: This is due to automatic generation, not very useful in the current state.. 16:52:18 I will take alook at the 5 or 6 loc quality related ones. 16:52:31 s/alook/a look 16:53:04 action: Phil to dispose of quality issues related ones 16:53:04 Created ACTION-372 - Dispose of quality issues related ones [on Phil Ritchie - due 2012-12-17]. 16:53:40 daveL: we probaly have the positive statements covered by the test suite 16:53:55 .. we probably also need to go through the negative 16:54:02 topic: best practices topics 16:54:14 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0040.html 16:54:43 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0041.html 16:54:56 fsasaki: various areas, e.g. ITS to XLIFF mapping 16:55:06 .. se the posted link.. 16:55:20 .. BP are not mandatory 16:55:30 .. they need manpower 16:55:51 .. if someone needs editing set up, please contact co-chairs 16:56:05 Arle: I will work on quality 16:56:20 fsasaki: quality is not yet on the list 16:56:46 Arle: I need to work on it anything for QT launchpad, so thet group gets it for free.. 16:56:55 Felix, I've to go... is there something you need me for, now? 16:57:03 fsasaki: The WG is not just publication cahnnel 16:57:15 .. it is a time consuming process 16:57:43 .. even though not nornmative it needs to be drafted, reviewed and OKed by the group 16:58:06 daveL: I agree we do not try and revive the requirements document 16:58:19 .. we should adress high level use cases 16:58:41 .. I'd look into provenance.. 16:59:03 .. Another worthu topic would be integration of text analytics into MT 16:59:12 topic: testing / milestones 16:59:13 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgIk0-aoSKOadG5HQmJDT2EybWVvVC1VbnF5alN2S3c#gid=0 16:59:40 fsasaki: this is the latest state of testing commitments 16:59:46 daveL_ has joined #mlw-lt 16:59:56 .. thanks for testing webinar to Dom and leroy 17:00:06 .. next milestone is Dec 17 17:00:25 .. Does any one have issue with the next week milestone? 17:00:47 .. The alternatives are one category completely 17:01:03 Phill: We are in good shape 17:01:10 Fredrik: It's ok with Enlaso 17:01:24 fsasaki: Please report if you have issue with the milestone 17:01:40 Olaf: Does it mean to get to all gree by next week? 17:01:58 fsasaki: no, we have milestones 17:02:57 .. implementation plan is not about the colours at this stage, but about meeting the milestones as sepcified above the table 17:03:33 .. we want conformant tests, but now it is about making progress 17:04:00 .. Other items we can address next week 17:04:47 https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/open 17:04:49 .. Arle posted a draft 17:05:04 .. now looking into action items 17:05:13 .. feedback for annual report 17:05:28 .. many are due today 17:05:40 .. does that work for everyone? 17:06:23 Phil: I sent a Google doc last week 17:06:47 fsasaki: it is not important to have loads of stuff, one or two paragraphs is OK 17:08:10 Arle: no template 17:08:18 .. just vanila html 17:08:35 fsasaki: Arle, can you post the link again? 17:08:41 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/2012-annual-report/ 17:09:24 present+ des 17:09:40 Des: due date? 17:10:01 Arle: nothing specifically from you, unless you really want to.. 17:10:09 .. this is for section leaders 17:10:17 .. in the LT-Web 17:11:23 I can do it by Wed COB 17:11:31 fsasaki: AOB? 17:12:02 .. next week we will continue LC comments and Christian commnets to non-nomative stuff 17:12:20 .. AOB? 17:12:26 .. Adjourned 17:12:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/10-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 17:12:58 dF has left #mlw-lt 19:28:20 Jirka has left #mlw-lt