IRC log of dap on 2012-12-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:08:57 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dap
14:08:57 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-dap-irc
14:08:58 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:08:58 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #dap
14:09:00 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DAP
14:09:00 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 51 minutes
14:09:01 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference
14:09:02 [trackbot]
Date: 05 December 2012
14:09:40 [fjh]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012Dec/0002.html
14:10:01 [fjh]
fjh has changed the topic to: dap 3279 ; agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012Dec/0002.html
14:10:22 [fjh]
Chair: Frederick_Hirsch
14:10:34 [fjh]
Present + Frederick_Hirsch
14:10:48 [fjh]
s/Present + Frederick_Hirsch//
14:10:53 [fjh]
Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
14:11:17 [fjh]
Regrets+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
14:46:19 [igarashi]
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14:48:06 [fjh]
Regrets+ Josh_Soref
14:48:52 [fjh]
Topic: Welcome, agenda review, scribe selection, announcements
14:49:39 [richt]
richt has joined #dap
14:52:49 [igarashi]
igarashi has joined #dap
14:57:41 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
14:57:48 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:57:56 [fjh]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:57:56 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
14:58:19 [dtran]
dtran has joined #dap
14:58:47 [ccourtney]
ccourtney has joined #dap
14:58:54 [ccourtney]
Present+ Colin_Courtney
14:59:28 [Zakim]
+ +1.757.825.aaaa
14:59:52 [Zakim]
+ +1.289.261.aabb
14:59:53 [fjh]
zakim, aaaa is ccourtney
14:59:54 [Zakim]
+ccourtney; got it
14:59:56 [Zakim]
+??P31
15:00:04 [Josh_Soref]
Zakim, aabb is Josh_Soref
15:00:04 [Zakim]
+Josh_Soref; got it
15:00:14 [dtran]
Present+ Dzung_Tran
15:00:30 [Zakim]
+ +81.80.655.7.aacc
15:00:36 [Josh_Soref]
Regrets- Josh_Soref
15:00:39 [lgombos]
lgombos has joined #dap
15:00:40 [Jungkee]
Jungkee has joined #dap
15:00:40 [Clarke]
Clarke has joined #dap
15:00:42 [Josh_Soref]
scribe: Josh_Soref
15:00:43 [richt]
regrets that I cannot attend the call today.
15:00:51 [igarashi]
Present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi
15:00:52 [Milan_Patel]
Milan_Patel has joined #dap
15:00:53 [Josh_Soref]
Regrets+ richt
15:00:57 [Jungkee]
Present+ Jungkee_Song
15:00:59 [Zakim]
+ +25686aadd
15:01:00 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:01:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-dap-minutes.html Josh_Soref
15:01:06 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
15:01:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see fjh, ccourtney, Josh_Soref, ??P31, +81.80.655.7.aacc, +25686aadd
15:01:08 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Milan_Patel, Clarke, Jungkee, lgombos, ccourtney, dtran, igarashi, richt, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, darobin, trackbot, slightlyoff, tobie, dom, timeless, Josh_Soref,
15:01:08 [Zakim]
... mounir
15:01:08 [Milan_Patel]
Present +Milan_Patel
15:01:18 [sato]
sato has joined #dap
15:01:33 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:01:43 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:01:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-dap-minutes.html Josh_Soref
15:01:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.781.534.aaee
15:01:58 [AnssiK]
AnssiK has joined #dap
15:02:10 [sato]
Present+ naoyuki_sato
15:02:11 [lgombos]
zakim, 534.aaee is me
15:02:12 [Zakim]
sorry, lgombos, I do not recognize a party named '534.aaee'
15:02:22 [fjh]
zakim, aaee is lgombos
15:02:22 [Zakim]
+lgombos; got it
15:02:28 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.651.aaff
15:02:28 [lgombos]
Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
15:02:29 [gmandyam]
gmandyam has joined #dap
15:02:29 [bryan]
bryan has joined #dap
15:02:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.503.542.aagg
15:02:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.720.934.aahh
15:03:22 [Josh_Soref]
Zakim, where is +256?
15:03:22 [Zakim]
country code 256 is Uganda
15:03:26 [dtran]
zakim, aagg is dtran
15:03:26 [Zakim]
+dtran; got it
15:03:49 [Milan_Patel]
zakim, aadd is Milan_Patel
15:03:49 [Zakim]
+Milan_Patel; got it
15:04:01 [igarashi]
zakim +??P31 is igarashi
15:04:42 [Clarke]
Zakim, aahh is me
15:04:42 [Zakim]
+Clarke; got it
15:04:47 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.214.aaii
15:05:02 [fjh]
zakim, where is 425?
15:05:02 [Zakim]
North American dialing code 1.425 is Washington
15:05:04 [Josh_Soref]
Zakim, where is +1425?
15:05:04 [Zakim]
North American dialing code 1.425 is Washington
15:05:06 [sato]
aacc is sato
15:05:11 [bryan]
zakim, aaii is bryan
15:05:11 [Zakim]
+bryan; got it
15:05:30 [fjh]
Network Information API updated draft published: http://www.w3.org/News/2012#entry-9640
15:05:30 [fjh]
Proximity API Last Call publication planned for tomorrow.
15:05:30 [fjh]
Please complete F2F questionnaire for date of next F2F: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43696/f2fQ12013/
15:05:30 [fjh]
Reminder - no teleconference 19 December, 26 December, 2 January.
15:05:31 [Josh_Soref]
s/regrets that I cannot attend the call today.//
15:05:33 [nkic]
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15:05:55 [fjh]
thanks Mounir for last minute updates to get the Network Information API published
15:06:27 [Josh_Soref]
gmandyam: I sent an issue for the network information
15:06:38 [Zakim]
+??P41
15:06:40 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i'll add an agenda item for it at the end
15:07:00 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: XXX
15:07:24 [fjh]
s/XXX/Network Information API/
15:07:35 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: Minutes Approval
15:07:43 [fjh]
17 October - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012Oct/att-0042/minutes-2012-10-17.html
15:07:59 [Josh_Soref]
RESOLUTION: Minutes from 17 October are approved
15:08:02 [fjh]
F2F 1-2 November 2012
15:08:03 [fjh]
http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/materials/minutes-2012-11-01.html
15:08:03 [fjh]
http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/materials/minutes-2012-11-02.html
15:08:16 [Josh_Soref]
RESOLUTION: Minutes from F2F 1-2 November are approved
15:08:23 [Zakim]
+ +46.1.07.15.aajj
15:08:27 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: Josh_Soref just sent the minutes from last week
15:08:42 [fjh]
28 November 2012 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012Dec/att-0005/minutes-2012-11-28.html
15:08:43 [Zakim]
+??P43
15:08:47 [fjh]
lets approve these next week
15:08:53 [Josh_Soref]
s/lets/let's/
15:09:00 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: HTML Media Capture
15:09:01 [nwidell]
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15:09:09 [nwidell_]
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15:09:16 [fjh]
Proposal with boolean - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012Nov/0097.html
15:09:42 [fjh]
I sent some comments http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012Dec/0003.html
15:11:59 [fjh]
fjh: thanks very much for a good proposal Anssi, it is an improvement, thanks for making an unofficial version and redline, that was very helpful. I have some comments related to material from the old version that probably should be fixed in the revision
15:12:57 [Zakim]
-bryan
15:13:15 [fjh]
anssi would you like to say anything about the update?
15:13:16 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: AnssiK, thanks for the new proposal
15:13:16 [Josh_Soref]
... i think that was very helpful
15:13:16 [Josh_Soref]
... i think your approach of making an unofficial draft was helpful
15:13:17 [Josh_Soref]
... I sent some comments, I think they're editorial
15:13:20 [Zakim]
+bryan
15:13:57 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: AnssiK, is there anything you want to add?
15:14:03 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: i'm looking for people to review the proposal
15:14:06 [Josh_Soref]
... and +1 it
15:14:15 [Josh_Soref]
... we should very quickly pick the approach we want to push
15:14:20 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: one comment i had
15:14:24 [Josh_Soref]
... most were editorial
15:14:29 [Josh_Soref]
... i think we can get rid of the note
15:14:40 [Josh_Soref]
... and make it clear there's no precedence issue
15:14:54 [Josh_Soref]
... and there was something about clarifying file v. media capture
15:15:01 [Josh_Soref]
... i think the new examples are great
15:15:07 [gmandyam]
+q
15:15:24 [Josh_Soref]
... i think it might be helpful to make it clear that it's a camera and not a generic file upload
15:15:33 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: are you referring to get getUserMedia?
15:15:51 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: I didn't see the <input> element with the accept= and capture= attributes
15:15:56 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: they're basically continued
15:15:59 [Josh_Soref]
... i'll make it clearer
15:16:05 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i suspected that, but...
15:16:16 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: in order to not repeat stuff, i split it into a couple of example blocks
15:16:36 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: in each example, you should say which other previous blocks are relevant
15:16:47 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: the highlighter doesn't XXX
15:17:02 [nwidell_]
Present+ Niklas_Widell
15:17:12 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: examples build on eachother, and you don't want to replicate everything
15:17:29 [Josh_Soref]
... but i think you should include some text indicating which things you're continuing
15:17:37 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: the reason i split scripts out of the html was
15:17:39 [Josh_Soref]
... YYY
15:17:42 [fjh]
s/eachother/each other/
15:17:51 [fjh]
q?
15:18:09 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i didn't understand how you'd do a scanner with this approach
15:18:19 [AnssiK]
the reason for splitting examples: highlighter does not work if you have both HTML and JavaScript in the same example block
15:18:36 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: you just specify the mime type you want in the accept type
15:18:41 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: like image/tiff
15:18:49 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: and then have the capture= attribute
15:18:50 [fjh]
ack gmanyam
15:18:56 [fjh]
ack gmandyam
15:19:13 [Josh_Soref]
gmandyam: question for AnssiK
15:19:17 [Josh_Soref]
... when we talk about precedence
15:19:21 [Josh_Soref]
... accept over capture
15:19:27 [Josh_Soref]
... how will that be done in practice?
15:19:32 [fjh]
I have proposal in my email for dealing with this
15:19:32 [Josh_Soref]
... if there's capture=true
15:19:39 [Josh_Soref]
... and accept=image/png
15:19:42 [fjh]
ignore capture if not possible
15:19:43 [Josh_Soref]
... and there's no camera attached
15:19:51 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: probably we should remove that text all together
15:19:57 [Josh_Soref]
... i forgot about that text
15:19:58 [Josh_Soref]
... i'll remove it
15:20:04 [Josh_Soref]
... i think fjh 's review covered that
15:20:08 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: yeah, i had a proposal for that
15:20:13 [Josh_Soref]
... it's no longer precedence
15:20:25 [Josh_Soref]
... it's "if the device doesn't have a means for capturing that mime type"
15:20:34 [Josh_Soref]
... then it's effectively as if you don't have the boolean
15:20:37 [Josh_Soref]
gmandyam: that's fine
15:20:49 [Josh_Soref]
... and we're ok with a web site being able to fingerprint with that?
15:20:57 [Josh_Soref]
... it could detect the absence of capture devices?
15:21:01 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: actually, you can't
15:21:04 [Josh_Soref]
... it's just an attribute
15:21:14 [Josh_Soref]
... it won't increase the fingerprinting surface
15:21:14 [fjh]
in new version fingerprinting surface seems less, only a boolean
15:21:23 [Josh_Soref]
... i don't see how this could be worse than the previous proposal
15:21:26 [Josh_Soref]
... this is an improvement
15:21:36 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i'd argue using a boolean gives much less information
15:21:43 [bryan]
wouldn't the user need to interact with the input to enable any fingerprinting data collection?
15:21:45 [Josh_Soref]
... i'm not sure how you could figure it out
15:21:57 [Josh_Soref]
... you don't have the specificity
15:22:04 [Josh_Soref]
... we'll have to review all this stuff for privacy
15:22:11 [Josh_Soref]
... but we have to get a draft in place first
15:22:16 [Josh_Soref]
... i think the next step
15:22:20 [bryan]
any fingerprinting that depends upon user interaction would likely not scale
15:22:32 [Josh_Soref]
... what i'd like to do is agree to make the unofficial draft the new editor's draft
15:22:40 [Josh_Soref]
... we need to decide to adopt this new approach
15:22:47 [Josh_Soref]
... and make a decision to publish a new WD
15:22:50 [Josh_Soref]
... next week
15:22:55 [Josh_Soref]
... because there's still edits to be done
15:23:04 [Josh_Soref]
... i'd like to decide to go forward with this approach
15:23:09 [Josh_Soref]
... too bad dom isn't on the call
15:23:18 [bryan]
+1 to the new approach
15:23:19 [Josh_Soref]
... does anyone object to adopt the approach of using the boolean?
15:23:20 [AnssiK]
+1 to go forward with the new proposal
15:23:23 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: +1 to the new approach
15:23:44 [Josh_Soref]
RESOLUTION: WG agrees to adopt the approach taken in the new proposal of using the boolean for HTML Media Capture
15:23:54 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: please update the draft and make it the editor's draft
15:24:05 [Josh_Soref]
... and then on next week's call, let's make a decision to publish a new WD
15:24:13 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: can we decide on the Publication Date?
15:24:21 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: let me check my calendar
15:24:23 [gmandyam]
In terms of fingerprinting, I don't think Anssi's proposal makes thing worse than the previous version of HTML Media Capture. However, I don't see how it improves upon fingerprinting either.
15:24:37 [Josh_Soref]
... but you may need to update the ED if you get feedback
15:24:43 [Josh_Soref]
... we're running close to the Pub deadline
15:24:49 [Josh_Soref]
... i'd suggest we try to publish on the 18th
15:25:00 [gmandyam]
I think it achieves what was the primary intention (based on my understanding) - resolving any conflicts between the accept and the old version of the capture attributes.
15:25:19 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: please action me to give me the deadline in tracker
15:25:37 [fjh]
action: anssiK to update editors draft for HTML Media Capture using proposal and incorporating changes based on comments
15:25:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-600 - Update editors draft for HTML Media Capture using proposal and incorporating changes based on comments [on Anssi Kostiainen - due 2012-12-12].
15:26:11 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:26:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-dap-minutes.html Josh_Soref
15:26:31 [fjh]
action: anssik to prepare updated WD of HTML Media Capture in preparation for publication on 18 December (assuming WG agreement 12 Dec)
15:26:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-601 - Prepare updated WD of HTML Media Capture in preparation for publication on 18 December (assuming WG agreement 12 Dec) [on Anssi Kostiainen - due 2012-12-12].
15:26:46 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: thanks everyone, this is a major step forward
15:26:48 [Josh_Soref]
... thanks AnssiK
15:27:02 [Josh_Soref]
... does anyone have anything more on HTML Media Capture?
15:27:14 [Josh_Soref]
... and AnssiK, please send out a message to the list that you've updated this
15:27:21 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: Network Service Discovery
15:27:34 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: there was discussion on the list
15:27:35 [fjh]
service name resolution? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012Nov/0098.html
15:27:42 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
15:27:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see fjh, ccourtney, Josh_Soref, ??P31, +81.80.655.7.aacc, Milan_Patel, lgombos, +1.858.651.aaff, Clarke, dtran (muted), ??P41, +46.1.07.15.aajj, ??P43, bryan
15:27:45 [Zakim]
On IRC I see nwidell_, nwidell, nkic, bryan, gmandyam, AnssiK, sato, Milan_Patel, Jungkee, lgombos, ccourtney, dtran, igarashi, richt, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, darobin, trackbot,
15:27:45 [Zakim]
... slightlyoff, tobie, dom, timeless, Josh_Soref, mounir
15:28:04 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: my take on it is that that has been resolved
15:28:10 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: I think cathy did resolve it
15:28:16 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: we might have a fingerprinting issue
15:28:22 [nwidell_]
zakim, aajj is nwidell
15:28:23 [Zakim]
+nwidell; got it
15:28:31 [Josh_Soref]
... there's an assumption that cathy made that reduces the risk of fingerprinting
15:28:31 [fjh]
s/printing issue/printing issue to review/
15:28:37 [Josh_Soref]
... but we should review that at some point
15:28:45 [Josh_Soref]
... richt had comments
15:28:54 [fjh]
Naoyuki Review comments - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012Nov/0101.html
15:29:12 [fjh]
s/richt had comments//
15:29:20 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: we'll take this to the list
15:29:28 [fjh]
We need to review these comments and discuss on list, seeking comment from Cathy and Rich
15:29:38 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: Ambient Light
15:29:46 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: we had a CfC
15:29:48 [Josh_Soref]
... but i had trouble getting in touch w/ dougt
15:29:53 [Josh_Soref]
... but i wanted to include him
15:29:59 [Josh_Soref]
... is anyone in touch with him?
15:30:11 [Josh_Soref]
... is mounir on the call?
15:30:41 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: Network Information
15:30:45 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: we published an updated draft
15:31:05 [Josh_Soref]
... gmandyam, is this a new issue?
15:31:17 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: this is the issue that we had discussed before
15:31:22 [Josh_Soref]
... but which hadn't been raised into tracker
15:31:28 [Josh_Soref]
gmandyam: this is bandwidth estimation
15:31:46 [fjh]
ISSUE-128?
15:31:46 [trackbot]
ISSUE-128 -- Need more description on how bandwidth should be estimated -- raised
15:31:46 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/128
15:31:47 [Josh_Soref]
[ fjh has issues with the issue tracker's raised status ]
15:32:13 [Zakim]
-Clarke
15:32:32 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i heard that it was highly implementation dependent
15:32:40 [Josh_Soref]
gmandyam: my suggestion is to just remove it
15:32:42 [Josh_Soref]
... i don't think you can get it
15:32:50 [Josh_Soref]
... my guess is one of two things will happen
15:32:59 [Josh_Soref]
... there will be so much variability in how it is implemented
15:33:04 [Josh_Soref]
... that developers won't rely on it
15:33:07 [fjh]
spec has note on metered, not bandwidth, http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-netinfo-api-20121129/
15:33:12 [Josh_Soref]
... or developers can try to calculate it their own way
15:33:24 [Josh_Soref]
... Navigation Timing has its own api
15:34:08 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: if implementations can figure it out, they can
15:34:15 [Josh_Soref]
... if not, they provide infinity
15:34:20 [fjh]
s/they can/they can provide it, /
15:34:25 [Josh_Soref]
gmandyam: i don't see the point in standardizing something
15:34:37 [Josh_Soref]
... that useragents claim they can provide, but which won't be accurate
15:34:46 [Josh_Soref]
... he has a couple of notes
15:35:25 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: there's no note on bandwidth, because you can provide it, or give infinity
15:35:30 [Josh_Soref]
gmandyam: it isn't good enough to provide it if it's bad
15:35:42 [Josh_Soref]
... or every browser has its own algorithm which yields different resluts
15:35:49 [Josh_Soref]
s/resluts/results/
15:36:02 [Josh_Soref]
... i'm confident that browsers won't provide consistent/reasonable values
15:36:17 [Josh_Soref]
gmandyam: how would you file a bug against browsers?
15:36:23 [Josh_Soref]
Zakim, who is making noise?
15:36:29 [fjh]
ok, concern is noted in section 1.2 outstanding issues
15:36:32 [Josh_Soref]
bryan: the accuracy of values can be tested
15:36:34 [Zakim]
Josh_Soref, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.858.651.aaff (27%), bryan (22%), ??P41 (18%)
15:36:46 [Josh_Soref]
Zakim, mute ??P41
15:36:46 [Zakim]
??P41 should now be muted
15:37:01 [Josh_Soref]
Zakim, who is on the call?
15:37:01 [Zakim]
On the phone I see fjh, ccourtney, Josh_Soref, ??P31, +81.80.655.7.aacc, Milan_Patel, lgombos, +1.858.651.aaff, dtran (muted), ??P41 (muted), nwidell, ??P43, bryan
15:37:07 [Josh_Soref]
Zakim, aaff is gmandyam
15:37:07 [Zakim]
+gmandyam; got it
15:37:18 [fjh]
ISSUE-128: note in spec about issue is in section 1.2 Outstanding issues : "One concern is that bandwidth may be hard to implement, can be quite power-consuming to keep up-to-date and its value might be unrelated to the actual connection quality that could be affected by the server.
15:37:18 [trackbot]
ISSUE-128 Need more description on how bandwidth should be estimated notes added
15:37:18 [fjh]
A solution to fix this would be to return non absolute values that couldn't be easily abused and would be more simple to produce for the user agent. For example, having a set of values like very-slow, slow, fast and very-fast. Another solution would be to have only values like very-slow, slow and the empty string."
15:37:26 [Josh_Soref]
gmandyam: if it's done in the UA, i don't think it's going to be accurate no matter what
15:37:56 [Josh_Soref]
... if there's value, we can see how they do / how it's used
15:38:01 [fjh]
ISSUE-128: see http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/network-api/Overview.html#outstanding-issues
15:38:01 [trackbot]
ISSUE-128 Need more description on how bandwidth should be estimated notes added
15:38:02 [Josh_Soref]
bryan: as wireless technologies get better
15:38:12 [Josh_Soref]
... i think you'll find much more stability (in LTE, LTE Advanced)
15:38:19 [Josh_Soref]
... variability will become less of an issue
15:38:32 [darobin]
darobin has left #dap
15:38:32 [Josh_Soref]
gmandyam: mobility always screws up bandwidth estimation
15:38:44 [Josh_Soref]
... you could go to wider bandwidth or narrower bandwidth systems
15:39:08 [Josh_Soref]
... i think the way bandwidth is estimated should be discussed in the spec
15:39:18 [Josh_Soref]
... if you say that, we have something to test against
15:39:26 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: there's an issue in the spec in 1.2
15:39:48 [Josh_Soref]
... it is noted in the spec
15:40:14 [Josh_Soref]
gmandyam: the issue i raised is to specify how it's estimated
15:40:29 [Josh_Soref]
... i don't think it should be left up to implementations alone
15:40:34 [bryan]
i would just suggest that we subject the implementations to testing, and if we have too much variability in the estimates, or bandwidth variability (over a short time) is determined to be a major limitation, we could drop it from the final spec.
15:40:34 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: adrianba made it clear
15:40:37 [nwidell_]
q+
15:40:45 [bryan]
in the meantime I agree with adding some guidelines on estimation to the spec
15:40:46 [Josh_Soref]
... If you're relying on the underlying platforms
15:41:06 [Josh_Soref]
gmandyam: what Qualcomm provides today
15:41:14 [Josh_Soref]
... isn't always making its way to the high level OS
15:41:35 [Josh_Soref]
... I don't think the HO OS takes advantage of what the modem provides
15:41:43 [Josh_Soref]
... I think his point is valid to an extent
15:41:44 [lgombos]
q+
15:41:54 [Josh_Soref]
... but I think it forces the UA to do its own estimation
15:42:06 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: would this problem be resolved if you treated the number as an estimated value
15:42:15 [Josh_Soref]
... and an estimated error-precision
15:42:28 [Josh_Soref]
... it seems what you're getting at is that we don't know what the precision is
15:42:33 [Josh_Soref]
... a single number isn't good enough
15:42:46 [Josh_Soref]
gmandyam: having a single number isn't good enough
15:42:51 [Josh_Soref]
... you have to understand how it's estimated
15:43:02 [Josh_Soref]
... you're saying how it's estimated affects the number returned
15:43:14 [Josh_Soref]
... maybe providing a software indicator of confidence
15:43:23 [fjh]
possible proposal - provide bandwidth + accuracy/precision estimate
15:43:25 [Josh_Soref]
... my feeling is the way the spec is written
15:43:28 [fjh]
q?
15:43:35 [Josh_Soref]
... it allows for a lot of variability
15:43:40 [fjh]
ack nwidell
15:43:41 [Josh_Soref]
... and developers won't rely on it
15:43:47 [Josh_Soref]
... and they'll go to Navigation Timing
15:43:59 [Josh_Soref]
q+ to say I'd like people to use Navigation Timing
15:44:07 [Josh_Soref]
nwidell: at TPAC we discussed this
15:44:20 [Josh_Soref]
... bandwidth may not be addressing the right problem
15:44:30 [Josh_Soref]
... what developers want to know is how good the connection is behaving
15:44:35 [Josh_Soref]
... so they can adapt their content
15:44:41 [Josh_Soref]
... that was mentioned by adrianba
15:44:50 [Josh_Soref]
... many developers need some value they can handle
15:45:01 [fjh]
I thought Adrian suggested we need more thought on this
15:45:01 [Josh_Soref]
... something that's useful
15:45:04 [Josh_Soref]
... i spoke to people inside Ericsson
15:45:22 [Josh_Soref]
... maybe this is something we should ask "developers" what kind of information would be useful to have
15:45:29 [Josh_Soref]
... before we try to define something
15:45:40 [Josh_Soref]
... potentially, what was raised by a colleague of mine
15:45:44 [Josh_Soref]
... is maybe not bandwidth
15:45:53 [Josh_Soref]
... but estimated bandwidth on the last leg
15:46:13 [Josh_Soref]
... maybe that's something the native platform can handle efficiently
15:46:21 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i assume you're assuming the last leg is the problem
15:46:31 [lgombos]
q-
15:46:34 [Josh_Soref]
nwidell: i'm assuming the problem is often the last leg
15:46:46 [fjh]
s/the problem/the bottleneck and that is why it is interesting, otherwise not sure I understand why/
15:47:04 [fjh]
do we need to clarify the use cae
15:47:10 [Josh_Soref]
nwidell: there was a Web Performance workshop
15:47:11 [fjh]
s/cae/case?/
15:47:16 [Josh_Soref]
... there may be stuff coming there that may be useful
15:47:53 [Zakim]
- +81.80.655.7.aacc
15:48:05 [Josh_Soref]
lgombos: the browser isn't always on the same OS
15:48:17 [Josh_Soref]
... the modem may not be easily accessible to the browser
15:48:34 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: it seems we need to define it in a way that isn't defined
15:48:51 [Josh_Soref]
... either we don't provide bandwidth at all
15:48:58 [Josh_Soref]
... we provide a standard way to categorize it
15:49:06 [Josh_Soref]
... or provide a way to express error range
15:49:22 [Josh_Soref]
... you shouldn't have to make assumptions about what's underneath
15:49:29 [Josh_Soref]
gmandyam: or recommend in the spec how the UA should estimate bandwidth
15:49:34 [fjh]
q?
15:49:38 [Josh_Soref]
... so we'd have something to test
15:49:48 [Josh_Soref]
... right now we don't know when a browser is compliant or not
15:49:50 [fjh]
ack Josh_Soref
15:49:50 [Zakim]
Josh_Soref, you wanted to say I'd like people to use Navigation Timing
15:49:52 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: we need to test this
15:50:06 [fjh]
s/test this/test this, so need to think ahead how this might be done/
15:50:35 [fjh]
josh_soref: at home using cell phone with uplink and wifi hotspot, laptop talks to phone to the internet, a common use case
15:50:49 [fjh]
... last leg is wrong leg to test
15:51:10 [fjh]
... assumption that there is a last leg that is useful is wrong
15:51:19 [fjh]
... should use Navigation Timing
15:51:45 [fjh]
... should see actual use cases, discussed and learned media streaming already has way to do this
15:51:58 [fjh]
+1 to need of clear use cases
15:52:22 [fjh]
josh_soref: use cases can be solved by Navigation Timing
15:52:26 [Zakim]
-dtran
15:52:29 [fjh]
s/use cases can/most use cases/
15:52:41 [fjh]
... XXX? underflow and overflow
15:53:04 [fjh]
... could have API asking if site is made available offline
15:53:50 [fjh]
... ie. provide user an alternative to bandwidth estimation, by providing direct means to addressing use case
15:54:07 [Josh_Soref]
s/XXX?/video frame/
15:54:14 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: if bandwidth isn't good enough
15:54:22 [Josh_Soref]
... you probably want a way to address the overall problem
15:54:29 [Josh_Soref]
... we should look at navigation timing
15:54:33 [Josh_Soref]
... and we need UCs
15:54:46 [Josh_Soref]
... i think we should take this discussion to the list
15:54:50 [Josh_Soref]
... i'll kick it off
15:55:01 [fjh]
action: fjh to send summary and query to the list to start Network Information discussion
15:55:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-602 - Send summary and query to the list to start Network Information discussion [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2012-12-12].
15:55:45 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: AOB
15:55:46 [AnssiK]
q+
15:55:59 [fjh]
ack anssiK
15:56:00 [Josh_Soref]
ack AnssiK
15:56:10 [AnssiK]
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/proximity/LC.html
15:56:17 [AnssiK]
are we on track to publish LC tomorrow?
15:56:32 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: yes we're all set
15:56:37 [fjh]
close ACTION-584
15:56:37 [trackbot]
ACTION-584 Update F2F agenda for sensor next steps, network information, and to make invitations for mozilla participation closed
15:56:38 [Josh_Soref]
... i've done the submission
15:56:41 [Josh_Soref]
... it's all set to go
15:56:51 [fjh]
close ACTION-585?
15:57:01 [fjh]
s/close ACTION-585?//
15:57:03 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i think we're done
15:57:08 [Josh_Soref]
... we'll meet again next week
15:57:21 [fjh]
close ACTION-585
15:57:22 [trackbot]
ACTION-585 Review Battery test and contribute more tests closed
15:57:25 [Josh_Soref]
... when hopefully we'll agree to publish an update to HTML Media Capture
15:57:37 [Josh_Soref]
... and we'll publish the update to Ambient Light
15:57:41 [Zakim]
-bryan
15:57:43 [Zakim]
-gmandyam
15:57:43 [Josh_Soref]
... thanks all
15:57:45 [Zakim]
-nwidell
15:57:46 [Zakim]
-Milan_Patel
15:57:51 [Zakim]
-??P43
15:57:51 [fjh]
close ACTION-589
15:57:51 [trackbot]
ACTION-589 Send CfC for Last Call of Ambient Light Events closed
15:57:52 [Zakim]
-ccourtney
15:57:57 [fjh]
close ACTION-593
15:57:57 [trackbot]
ACTION-593 Build a survey for finding a week for DAP meeting March/April closed
15:58:03 [fjh]
close ACTION-594
15:58:04 [trackbot]
ACTION-594 Arrange publication of updated WD of Network Information API closed
15:58:08 [fjh]
close ACTION-597
15:58:09 [trackbot]
ACTION-597 Announce plans for LC publication to webapps, sys apps, ping closed
15:58:14 [Zakim]
-lgombos
15:58:18 [fjh]
Call scheduled for next week, 12 December 2012
15:58:28 [Josh_Soref]
trackbot, end meeting
15:58:28 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:58:28 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been fjh, +1.757.825.aaaa, +1.289.261.aabb, ccourtney, Josh_Soref, +81.80.655.7.aacc, +25686aadd, +1.781.534.aaee, lgombos, +1.858.651.aaff,
15:58:31 [Zakim]
... +1.503.542.aagg, +1.720.934.aahh, dtran, Milan_Patel, Clarke, +1.425.214.aaii, bryan, +46.1.07.15.aajj, nwidell, gmandyam
15:58:36 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:58:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-dap-minutes.html trackbot
15:58:37 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
15:58:37 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-dap-actions.rdf :
15:58:37 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: anssiK to update editors draft for HTML Media Capture using proposal and incorporating changes based on comments [1]
15:58:37 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-dap-irc#T15-25-37
15:58:37 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: anssik to prepare updated WD of HTML Media Capture in preparation for publication on 18 December (assuming WG agreement 12 Dec) [2]
15:58:37 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-dap-irc#T15-26-31
15:58:37 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: fjh to send summary and query to the list to start Network Information discussion [3]
15:58:37 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-dap-irc#T15-55-01
15:58:40 [Zakim]
-fjh
15:58:43 [Zakim]
-Josh_Soref
15:58:45 [Jungkee]
Jungkee has left #dap
15:58:51 [Zakim]
-??P31