IRC log of css on 2012-12-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:08:38 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #css
16:08:38 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-css-irc
16:08:43 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
16:08:43 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 52 minutes
16:08:47 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:15:10 [mollyholzschlag]
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16:16:23 [krit]
krit has joined #css
16:40:46 [dbaron]
dbaron has joined #css
16:47:40 [glenn]
glenn has joined #css
16:50:10 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:50:17 [Zakim]
+??P25
16:51:08 [darktears_]
P25 is me
16:51:19 [darktears_]
Zakim: P25 is me
16:52:13 [darktears]
Zakim, ??P25 is me
16:52:13 [Zakim]
+darktears; got it
16:52:51 [glenn]
zakim, what is the code?
16:52:51 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glenn
16:53:24 [Zakim]
+??P39
16:53:34 [glenn]
zakim, ??p39 is me
16:53:35 [Zakim]
+glenn; got it
16:54:05 [Zakim]
+Molly_Holzschlag
16:54:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aaaa
16:54:29 [florianr]
florianr has joined #css
16:54:32 [krit]
Zakim, aaaa is me
16:54:32 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
16:54:56 [Zakim]
+??P42
16:55:03 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P42 is me
16:55:03 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:55:16 [glazou]
Zakim, who is noisy?
16:55:16 [Zakim]
+??P43
16:55:26 [Zakim]
glazou, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:55:49 [glazou]
Zakim, who is noisy?
16:56:01 [Zakim]
glazou, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Molly_Holzschlag (3%)
16:57:37 [antonp]
antonp has joined #css
16:58:07 [oyvind]
oyvind has joined #css
16:58:21 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:58:24 [jet]
jet has joined #CSS
16:59:36 [Zakim]
+ +1.619.846.aabb
16:59:52 [leif]
leif has joined #css
17:00:01 [Zakim]
+plinss
17:00:05 [Zakim]
+ +93192aacc
17:00:14 [glazou]
Zakim, aabb is hober
17:00:14 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
17:00:26 [glazou]
Zakim, aacc is antonp
17:00:26 [Zakim]
+antonp; got it
17:00:33 [tantek]
tantek has joined #css
17:00:35 [Zakim]
+ +47.23.69.aadd
17:00:37 [bradk]
bradk has joined #css
17:00:47 [leif]
Zakim, aadd is me
17:00:48 [Zakim]
+leif; got it
17:01:09 [Zakim]
+ +33.9.52.34.aaee
17:01:12 [Zakim]
+fantasai
17:01:16 [florian]
florian has joined #css
17:01:18 [glazou]
Zakim, aaee is SimonSapin
17:01:18 [Zakim]
+SimonSapin; got it
17:01:35 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.275.aaff
17:01:48 [florian]
Zakim, IPcaller has me
17:01:48 [Zakim]
+florian; got it
17:01:49 [rhauck]
rhauck has joined #css
17:01:52 [glazou]
Zakim, aaff is bradk
17:01:53 [Zakim]
+bradk; got it
17:02:26 [Zakim]
+Stearns
17:02:31 [Zakim]
+??P82
17:02:36 [Zakim]
+Tantek
17:02:39 [jdaggett]
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17:02:46 [tantek]
Zakim, mute Tantek
17:02:46 [Zakim]
Tantek should now be muted
17:03:25 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:03:39 [jdaggett]
zakim, ?p82 is me
17:03:39 [Zakim]
sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named '?p82'
17:03:47 [jdaggett]
greetings
17:03:49 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P82 is jdaggett
17:03:49 [Zakim]
+jdaggett; got it
17:04:32 [sylvaing_away]
sylvaing_away has joined #css
17:04:44 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller.a]
17:05:02 [koji]
zakim, [ipcaller.a] is me
17:05:02 [Zakim]
+koji; got it
17:05:07 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.766.aagg
17:05:50 [leif]
ScribeNick: leif
17:05:59 [Zakim]
+Bert
17:06:00 [leif]
glazou: extra items?
17:06:18 [leif]
… nothing
17:06:26 [leif]
glazou: Need report about Tucson from Molly
17:06:50 [leif]
mollyholzschlag: Request last meeting was to shift it a day.
17:06:55 [leif]
mollyholzschlag: Didn't work out too well.
17:07:21 [leif]
… Feb being a big month, the best option is (as a suggestion) to move one week forward, to 11th
17:07:33 [leif]
… can have it downtown at the Marriot, walkable to campus and bars
17:07:46 [leif]
… for those that stay an extra day, can go to biosphere etc.
17:07:59 [leif]
glazou: problem: w3c workshop about ebooks in NYC from 11-13th
17:08:19 [leif]
florian: shifting it 1 day was preference, but no-one completely against keeping
17:08:28 [cabanier]
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17:08:42 [leif]
mollyholzschlag: The block I had for Marriot is not available anymore, but still have the Bioshhere
17:08:43 [dbaron]
Earlier this week, I created a problem for myself that week (the following week) because we'd said last week that we were committed to the week we'd chosen.
17:09:01 [leif]
… Big q is whether people … Daniel, you're the only one with a conflict?
17:09:09 [leif]
glazou: Alan will probably also attend
17:09:30 [leif]
dbaron: I got a jury duty postponed to that week
17:09:43 [leif]
mollyholzschlag: Don't have to do it, only if we want that model
17:10:06 [leif]
… General feeling is not to move right now, stick to dates
17:10:34 [leif]
… partly biosphere, part downtown, 4-7 Feb
17:10:40 [leif]
… or any combination
17:10:52 [leif]
… not going to do anything about moving to next week
17:11:03 [leif]
… We may have to be in separate hotels
17:11:09 [leif]
… Housing is only problem
17:11:31 [leif]
… Resolve to keep dates? Part of problem was adding Thurs, that's when they start running out of rooms
17:11:39 [leif]
… checking out 7th is ok
17:11:43 [leif]
glazou: that's enough
17:12:08 [leif]
mollyholzschlag: someone wanted to move it forward
17:12:11 [leif]
SimonSapin: ok for me
17:12:19 [SteveZ]
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17:12:33 [leif]
mollyholzschlag: PLEASE use wiki planning page, put your name in there
17:12:43 [leif]
… in notes section, put special needs, spouse, children etc.
17:12:57 [leif]
… once I get this all done, have to start working on catering
17:13:11 [leif]
… Next week I'll come back with hotel to begin reserving
17:13:39 [leif]
glazou, mollyholzschlag: thanks
17:13:43 [krit]
I want to mention that next monday (12/10) is a FXTF call. Agenda and times posted on the public-fx mailing list.
17:13:50 [leif]
Topic: CSS3 Text
17:14:06 [leif]
glazou: jdaggett objected to LC, we thought merited time onc all
17:14:17 [leif]
jdaggett: bunch of issues I posted
17:14:27 [leif]
… some have solutions, some just require a bit more head-scratching
17:14:31 [leif]
… figure out what is needed now
17:14:54 [leif]
… text-justify: what it is and why it's needed. is it the best way to accomplish this?
17:15:00 [leif]
… It's a bit underdefined
17:15:08 [leif]
… In San Diego I said we need use cases
17:15:17 [leif]
… an example was added, but doesn't expalin UC.
17:15:40 [leif]
… Set a string in multiple scripts, but doesn't show you why
17:15:58 [leif]
florian: Wouldn't put it that way, but I share some concern.
17:16:08 [leif]
… when introduced, it was overly specific
17:16:15 [leif]
… good for justification
17:16:34 [leif]
… Gives implementors flexibility, but so flexible that it is somewhat meaningless
17:16:41 [leif]
… can conform without making sense
17:17:02 [Zakim]
+??P14
17:17:04 [leif]
jdaggett: A number of specific issues were filed not just -justify
17:17:15 [leif]
… until we go through those [noise]
17:17:24 [leif]
jdaggett: posted to the list
17:17:29 [leif]
… filed in tracker
17:17:30 [Zakim]
-antonp
17:17:33 [leif]
… linked from spec
17:17:49 [leif]
glazou: So we have quite a strong objection
17:17:50 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
17:17:56 [leif]
florian: I object almost as strongly
17:18:04 [leif]
glazou: So we need to solve these issues before going to LC
17:18:32 [leif]
jdaggett: I'm not sure these issues are so high prio that we need to push through on calls before the next F2F
17:18:34 [florian]
s/object almost as strongly/don't object as strongly, but I agree with the concerns/
17:18:37 [leif]
… better to do it then
17:18:49 [leif]
glazou: letter-spacing does not need conf call time?
17:18:58 [leif]
jdaggett: That's an issue that is easier to resolve, so could talk about it
17:19:00 [leif]
… or later
17:19:03 [leif]
glazou: later
17:19:08 [leif]
… more time for flexbox
17:19:16 [leif]
fantasai: What about text-decoration?
17:19:23 [leif]
… in a separate spec go to LC?
17:19:38 [leif]
glazou: I think fantasai is asking whether you also object to that
17:19:51 [leif]
jdaggett: Not looked at it, not on agenda
17:20:20 [leif]
ACTION jdaggett loko at text-decoration spec and object or agree to LC
17:20:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-526 - Loko at text-decoration spec and object or agree to LC [on John Daggett - due 2012-12-12].
17:20:42 [leif]
Topic: Publish WD CSS3 Fonts
17:20:45 [jdaggett]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/#recent-changes
17:20:56 [leif]
jdaggett: number of significant changes
17:20:59 [bradk]
s/Loko/Look
17:21:02 [leif]
… FontLoader events
17:21:10 [leif]
… changes to syntax of @font-feature-values
17:21:14 [leif]
… to OM
17:21:16 [leif]
… and a few others
17:21:33 [leif]
… I think FontLoader object will go through changes as people comment
17:21:45 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
17:21:51 [leif]
… Need to make sure it's completely accurate, but it's been reviewed by a number of people. We can publish
17:21:55 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft has me
17:21:55 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
17:21:56 [leif]
glazou: Prev. WD from end of Aug
17:22:08 [leif]
… No objections.
17:22:13 [glenn]
sounds good
17:22:26 [leif]
RESOLVED: Publish WD CSS3 Fonts
17:22:36 [leif]
Topic: CSS Flexbox issues
17:22:37 [glazou]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012OctDec/0251.html
17:22:57 [fantasai]
There have been several issues filed against Flexbox since the CR.
17:22:57 [fantasai]
We wanted to make sure everyone gets a chance to review them and
17:22:57 [fantasai]
make sure the changes are correct. (And then of course we'll need
17:22:57 [fantasai]
to publish an update.)
17:22:57 [fantasai]
The changes are summarized in:
17:23:00 [fantasai]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/#changes
17:23:02 [fantasai]
The relevant diffs are:
17:23:05 [fantasai]
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/2dfe9b0d813f/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html
17:23:07 [fantasai]
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/c963d3ec23b8/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html
17:23:10 [fantasai]
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/9d29cc6d8a95/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html
17:23:12 [fantasai]
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/284a967553ae/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html
17:23:15 [fantasai]
The last change is the trickiest one, and we'd really like Rossen and
17:23:17 [fantasai]
Alex Mogilevsky to review it. The thread begins at
17:23:20 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0781.html
17:23:22 [fantasai]
We also rejected two change requests:
17:23:25 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0460.html
17:23:27 [fantasai]
See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0462.html
17:23:30 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0010.html
17:23:32 [leif]
glazou: Many of the confidential messages you sent deserve to be public
17:23:32 [fantasai]
See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0041.html
17:23:35 [fantasai]
and would like the CSSWG to review and, if everyone agrees, ratify that.
17:23:46 [leif]
fantasai summarizes
17:23:47 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0460.html
17:24:03 [leif]
fantasai: 1. special case negative margins and clamp them to zero
17:24:25 [leif]
… could be nonsensical, but Tab and I want to just let them do it
17:24:35 [leif]
… maybe author wanted something weird
17:24:40 [leif]
… we propose not changing it
17:24:52 [leif]
florian: Wouldn't happen by accident, might as well give them that.
17:25:04 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0010.html
17:25:14 [leif]
RESOLVED: First diff: no change.
17:26:10 [stearns]
issue described here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0041.html
17:26:37 [leif]
fantasai: 2. Should an image a max-height constraint affect the max-width constraint when there's an aspect ratio
17:26:42 [leif]
… we say no
17:26:49 [leif]
… specifying the flex is kind of like specifying the width
17:26:57 [leif]
Rossen: That makes sense.
17:27:36 [leif]
SteveZ: In other places we try to preserve aspect ratio.
17:27:51 [Zakim]
-??P14
17:27:52 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.aa]
17:27:57 [leif]
fantasai: We consider the aspect ratio when calculating the hypothetical size
17:28:12 [Rossen]
Rossen has joined #css
17:28:12 [leif]
SteveZ: And i suspec that's the best you can do in this circumstance
17:28:24 [leif]
… even without flexbox if I set a width I can destroy aspect ratio.
17:28:35 [leif]
… Seems strange to consider flexing a fixed width
17:28:45 [leif]
fantasai: Not a fixed width, but it's kind of like 100%
17:28:50 [leif]
… The only thing in the box.
17:29:07 [fantasai]
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/2dfe9b0d813f/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html
17:29:12 [leif]
… The changes, 3 are minor, the last still being discussed on mailnig list
17:29:13 [glenn]
thinks that if AR is specified, then should take priority
17:29:25 [leif]
… First minor one: When deciding whether to use stretch
17:29:32 [tantek]
tantek has changed the topic to: Please add yourself to http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tucson-2013#participants if you intend to participate in the 2013 February f2f in Tucson, AZ, USA.
17:29:34 [leif]
… you check the computed cross-size property
17:29:53 [leif]
… What happens if it's specified as a percentage and can't be resolved, treated as auto
17:30:14 [leif]
… You check the computed cross-size prop, which means you get auto behavior and no stretching
17:30:31 [leif]
… We're open to doing things different, but this simplest thing, to just check the computed size
17:30:32 [drublic_]
drublic_ has joined #css
17:31:07 [leif]
RESOLVED (from earlier): Second diff, no change.
17:31:33 [leif]
glazou: move on?
17:31:38 [fantasai]
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/c963d3ec23b8/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html
17:31:46 [leif]
fantasai: 3rd diff: Fixed an error
17:31:52 [leif]
… needs review
17:31:56 [fantasai]
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/9d29cc6d8a95/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html
17:32:17 [leif]
… 4th diff: Floats may not have an effect, but may affect display property
17:32:30 [leif]
… Clarify that takes effect and still becomes a flex item
17:32:39 [leif]
… Probably should review it
17:32:43 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0781.html
17:32:43 [leif]
… Last diff
17:32:47 [fantasai]
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/284a967553ae/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html
17:33:09 [leif]
… Would like Rossen and Alex Mogilevksy to review
17:33:16 [leif]
… Does it match IE, or different and better
17:33:22 [leif]
Rossen: We will review, maybe today
17:33:33 [leif]
… close this next week
17:33:51 [leif]
^fantasai
17:33:55 [leif]
fantasai: address Kenny's comments
17:34:13 [leif]
Topic: Case insensitivity of identifiers from TPAC
17:34:33 [leif]
?: Is Tab on the call?
17:34:40 [leif]
glazou: No, in Hawaii, poor him
17:34:50 [leif]
glazou: So what do we do?
17:34:57 [leif]
florian: Please remind me of conclusion of last discussion
17:35:06 [leif]
… which options did we eliminate?
17:35:17 [leif]
plinss: At TPAC we deferred to i18n
17:35:25 [leif]
… they came back and said to do case folding
17:35:25 [florian]
florian has joined #css
17:35:59 [Bert]
q+ to ask which case-folding? There are two, aren't there? A simnple and a complex one.
17:35:59 [leif]
florian: Main arg. for not doing that is that in other places, like HTML, they do ASCII case insensitivty.
17:36:19 [leif]
?: They said to do full case-insensitivity
17:36:36 [leif]
florian: Hard to do
17:36:38 [plinss]
s/?/jdaggett/
17:36:50 [leif]
… Nothing says which language a stylesheet is in
17:36:55 [smfr]
smfr has joined #css
17:37:00 [glazou]
poor bradk too… :-)
17:37:06 [leif]
fantasai: Set of default rules to use when you don't know the language for text-transform
17:38:15 [leif]
Bert: Which of the two case-folding algorithms from Unicode did i17n recomend?
17:38:26 [leif]
… The simple one is better than full
17:38:29 [glazou]
s/i17n/i18n
17:38:36 [leif]
florian: Other than language sensitivty, what is the difference?
17:38:47 [leif]
fantasai: I have to look into that
17:38:58 [leif]
… two sets: one that preserves the length of the string, on ethat doesn't
17:39:12 [leif]
Bert: the German sharp s
17:39:21 [leif]
… wouldn't be folded in the simple algo.
17:39:36 [leif]
florian: No particular reason for us to care about string length changing.
17:39:39 [leif]
fantasai: agrees
17:39:58 [leif]
fantasai: Two axes: constant string length or language sensitivity
17:40:04 [leif]
… def. don't want to be language sensitive
17:40:21 [leif]
florian: Dont' know the implications, but from conceptual standpoint, makes sense
17:40:50 [leif]
jdaggett: The big problem is that you're making a distinction for …
17:41:02 [glazou]
I think florian is noisy, people speaking french in the background
17:41:07 [leif]
( identifiers, i18n mailing list … )
17:41:21 [leif]
florian: Slowly moving towards full unicode
17:41:27 [leif]
jdaggett: I don't see that happening
17:41:36 [leif]
SteveZ: HTML is pretty solidly set on not doing that
17:41:55 [leif]
dbaron: Defined lots of things as ASCII case sensitive when comparing things that are ASCII
17:42:10 [dbaron]
s/comparing things/comparing to things/
17:42:25 [bradk]
someone in a lunch room?
17:42:28 [tantek]
Zakim, who is here?
17:42:28 [Zakim]
On the phone I see darktears, glenn, Molly_Holzschlag, krit, glazou, ??P43, [IPcaller], hober, plinss, leif, SimonSapin, fantasai, bradk, Stearns, jdaggett, Tantek (muted),
17:42:32 [Zakim]
... [Microsoft], koji, dbaron, Bert, SteveZ, [Microsoft.a], [Microsoft.aa]
17:42:32 [Zakim]
[IPcaller] has florian
17:42:32 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has arronei
17:42:32 [Zakim]
On IRC I see smfr, florian, Rossen, SteveZ, cabanier, sylvaing_away, jdaggett, rhauck, bradk, tantek, leif, oyvind, antonp, glenn, dbaron, krit, mollyholzschlag, RRSAgent, Zakim,
17:42:32 [Zakim]
... glazou, koji, Ms2ger, liam, SimonSapin, teoli, darktears, isherman
17:42:45 [tantek]
Zakim, who is ??P43?
17:42:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, tantek.
17:42:52 [leif]
glazou: More to say? we haven't solved it
17:42:56 [dbaron]
s/sensitive when/sensitive, mostly when/
17:43:04 [leif]
florian: Should determine what's standing between us and conclusion
17:43:16 [tantek]
are there URLs to specific alternatives being considered?
17:43:24 [leif]
plinss: Not hearing strong arguments against doing Unicode case folding
17:43:40 [jdaggett]
anne k had a pretty strong argument on the i18n list
17:43:43 [rhauck]
fantasai: confirming that we are staying on the call with plinss and arronei to discuss the css 2.1 test suite?
17:44:04 [fantasai]
rhauck: yep
17:44:15 [dbaron]
http://www.w3.org/mid/CADnb78gbNqHBtnxqhukZnZFO8Z4bjJJC2mC3JdVW7WqT6D7aLQ@mail.
17:44:15 [dbaron]
gmail.com
17:44:20 [glazou]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2012OctDec/0109.html
17:44:21 [SimonSapin]
SimonSapin has joined #css
17:44:26 [leif]
jdaggett: That one?
17:44:36 [dbaron]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2012OctDec/0109.html
17:44:41 [leif]
glazou: yeah that one
17:44:43 [jdaggett]
yes
17:44:49 [leif]
fantasai: What is case insensitive in HTML?
17:45:13 [glenn]
@name/@id comparison?
17:45:15 [leif]
Chris: tags and attributes
17:45:20 [glazou]
s/Chris/krit
17:45:29 [leif]
florian: is the pasted mail the only argumetn? Not particularly strong
17:45:40 [leif]
fantasai: You can't make up your own, and they're all ascii
17:45:48 [fantasai]
s/You/Traditionally, you/
17:45:54 [Ms2ger]
getElementsByClassName in quirks mode
17:46:00 [tantek]
disagreed, I think Anne's position of "look at the platform holistically" is the right position.
17:46:13 [leif]
florian: Unless particular problems, support full Unicode
17:46:27 [leif]
glazou: dbaron poitned out anne's answer, but what about you?
17:46:49 [leif]
dbaron: Agree, but probably not as strongly
17:47:11 [leif]
florian: Anne's point is weakened by what fantasai just said
17:47:25 [leif]
… when mostly talking about ascii things, difference is not great.
17:47:40 [leif]
… Now that we are considering that, we shouldn't feel constrained
17:47:50 [leif]
krit: XML-based languages are case sensitive
17:47:51 [Zakim]
-SimonSapin
17:47:57 [Bert]
(In HTML I think all tokens defined by HTML are case-insensitive except for entity names.)
17:48:05 [leif]
… CSS is used for those as well
17:48:08 [tantek]
Ms2ger - this might be a good case where it makes sense to be consistent with HTML first, and then raise it to TAG to look at from a "platform holistically" perspective.
17:48:15 [leif]
krit: Not sure it actually matters for us
17:48:23 [leif]
plinss: only matter for elements and selectors
17:48:28 [Zakim]
+SimonSapin
17:48:34 [leif]
… this is only about identifiers, user identifiers specifically
17:48:39 [leif]
florian: Consistency
17:48:44 [tantek]
more important to be consistent with HTML than XML
17:48:53 [leif]
… is already broken
17:48:59 [leif]
SteveZ: Don't need to make it worse
17:49:05 [leif]
florian: But might win something on another front
17:49:15 [tantek]
"on another front" sounds hypothetical, and thus discardable
17:49:26 [leif]
SteveZ: No strong opinions, but anne's solution could get interoperable
17:49:45 [leif]
glazou: Full unicode solves only edge cases?
17:49:49 [jdaggett]
yes, exactly what daniel just said...
17:50:00 [leif]
SteveZ: … (didn't hear it)
17:50:24 [leif]
florian: For French, full case insensitivity doesn't help.
17:50:46 [dbaron]
Florian: ... people tend not to type uppercase accented characters with keyboards
17:50:50 [leif]
SteveZ said before: Trying to track bugs for edge cases is bigger pain than the value of being insensitive, and interop would suffer
17:50:58 [tantek]
excellent summary SteveZ
17:51:05 [leif]
glazou: If we don't implement case insensitivty, what does it mean for the architecture of the wb
17:51:13 [leif]
… will we be inconsistent?
17:51:25 [glenn]
this looks like a good subject for a TAG finding
17:51:26 [leif]
fantasai: We'll be consistent, and non-ASCII langs can't use case insensitivity.
17:51:46 [leif]
florian: Practical for French, but not eg. Norwegian
17:52:10 [leif]
fantasai: Leif's name would be fully insensitive, Håkon's would be excerpt the å
17:52:21 [leif]
florian: Nobody can type the upper case in French
17:52:28 [leif]
fantasai: I don't have trouble?
17:52:36 [leif]
florian: Not É on regular keyboard
17:52:45 [leif]
glazou: only Windows keyboards!
17:52:55 [leif]
florian: Huge number of people don't know how to type it
17:53:01 [tantek]
rathole?
17:53:02 [leif]
fantasai: Weird thing, but not relevant
17:53:18 [leif]
florian: only a theoretical problem
17:53:30 [leif]
… but if it's common enough, we're not buying anything
17:53:53 [leif]
plinss: back to www-international, a test case shows IE, Opera Chrome being interop on case-insensiutive comparison of class idents
17:54:03 [leif]
… Argument that we dno't do it isn't valid, it is done
17:54:11 [leif]
dbaron: version of Firefox?
17:54:30 [plinss]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2012OctDec/0110.html
17:54:31 [leif]
dbaron: We change it to ASCII case-insensitive
17:54:36 [plinss]
http://www.inter-locale.com/test/css-case-sensitive-test.html
17:54:45 [Ms2ger]
"A quick survey of browsers on my desktop computer using the following page shows that IE9, Opera, Safari, and Chrome are already non-ASCII case-insensitive (only FF seems to be ASCII-only case-insensitive):"
17:55:05 [leif]
dbaron: Oh, he said only Firefox
17:55:05 [SimonSapin]
relevant HTML5 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#case-sensitivity
17:55:18 [leif]
plinss: I don't think Anne's point holds a lot of water
17:55:24 [leif]
dbaron: Talking of other parts of the platform
17:55:29 [SimonSapin]
"Classes from the class attribute of HTML elements in documents that are in quirks mode must be treated as ASCII case-insensitive for the purposes of selector matching."
17:55:30 [leif]
plinss: Here you have CSS and HTMl
17:55:40 [SimonSapin]
"Everything else (attribute values on HTML elements, IDs and classes in no-quirks mode and limited-quirks mode, and element names, attribute names, and attribute values in XML documents) must be treated as case-sensitive for the purposes of selector matching."
17:55:40 [leif]
… pretty good part of the platform!
17:55:45 [leif]
dbaron: What is this testing?
17:55:54 [leif]
glazou: Class names
17:56:00 [leif]
dbaron: Testing exactly one thing
17:56:11 [dbaron]
http://www.inter-locale.com/test/css-case-sensitive-test.html
17:56:21 [leif]
florian: If we don't actually have consistency, we don't actually have something to be consistent with
17:56:22 [glenn]
historical reference for interest: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/html.html#ID-5353782642
17:56:25 [leif]
dbaron: Well, what's the right thing?
17:56:32 [leif]
florian: i18n said full unicode
17:56:45 [leif]
glazou: Old browsers do what majority of browsers do
17:56:50 [leif]
… spec is what browsers do
17:57:01 [leif]
… IE, Opera, Chrome already do the same thing
17:57:10 [leif]
florian: Not user-defined identifiers
17:57:20 [leif]
… take a poll?
17:57:24 [Bert]
q+ to ask: Mac and Windows have case-insensitive file systems, what algo do they use?
17:57:43 [leif]
Bert: Most ppl are used to Windows, what do they do?
17:57:48 [leif]
florian: in what context?
17:57:52 [leif]
Bert: File names
17:58:04 [leif]
… UNIX doesn't do case folding, Mac and Windows do
17:58:23 [leif]
florian: Most people don't type names
17:58:25 [leif]
… they click
17:58:50 [leif]
… A bunch of places to do case folding. Looking for consistency in web platform, makes sense, not further.
17:59:08 [leif]
glazou: Not sure poll is useful
17:59:13 [leif]
… More discussion is needed.
17:59:22 [leif]
florian: We've been talking about it for a while without many new points
17:59:29 [leif]
… Do we know why we're postpoingn?
17:59:43 [leif]
plinss: We've asked i18n, and they gave an asnwsr, and we have a test that shows consistency
17:59:48 [leif]
dbaron: but only testing one thing
17:59:59 [leif]
plinss: Shows consistency between html and css
18:00:13 [leif]
dbaron: "Consistency across the platform" should mean more than just one thing
18:00:19 [tantek]
could the advocates of each position update their documentation of their positions with the new data, and then reprovide the URLs to the documentation of their positions?
18:00:23 [leif]
glazou: Can we write more tests, or ping i18hn gorup?
18:00:33 [leif]
… if majority do one thing, let's make a decision.
18:00:43 [leif]
… I will ping i18n group and ask for more tests
18:00:52 [tantek]
I'm skeptical about a last minute test being shown and being asked to immediately except it.
18:00:52 [leif]
… then revisit issue
18:00:59 [leif]
fantasai: Want dbaron to list things to test
18:01:01 [tantek]
er, *accept* it
18:01:12 [leif]
dbaron: yes, but not off top of head
18:01:25 [leif]
ACTION dbaron List types of tests needed for case insensitivity
18:01:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-527 - List types of tests needed for case insensitivity [on David Baron - due 2012-12-12].
18:01:43 [leif]
ACTION glazou Contact i18n
18:01:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-528 - Contact i18n [on Daniel Glazman - due 2012-12-12].
18:01:59 [leif]
SimonSapin: Tests that we linked are in quirks mode
18:02:03 [leif]
… standards mode might be different.
18:02:17 [leif]
fantasai: Class names are matched case insensitivitely in standards mode
18:02:21 [leif]
… need to use quirks mode for this test
18:02:25 [fantasai]
s/insensit/sensit/
18:02:38 [leif]
florian: My impression is that tests are worth doing, but we don't have consistency
18:02:46 [leif]
glazou: Let's see.
18:02:55 [leif]
Topic: Text decoration
18:03:07 [leif]
jdaggett: text decoration spec has two issues listed in spec
18:03:12 [jdaggett]
http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/products/10
18:03:25 [leif]
… a set of issues listed in the tracker under CSS3 Text that are actually about decoration
18:03:34 [leif]
… only a placeholder in spec
18:03:37 [leif]
… Needs resolving
18:03:43 [glazou]
florian: mute please
18:04:23 [leif]
jdaggett: There's no introduction
18:04:34 [leif]
fantasai: Yes, needs intro
18:04:47 [leif]
… Needs to reference CSS Color,
18:04:54 [leif]
… Also needs to add an example
18:05:04 [leif]
jdaggett: also issues in tracker
18:05:09 [fantasai]
None of the issues in tracker are agianst text-decoration
18:05:18 [leif]
Topic: conf calls
18:05:31 [leif]
glazou: Last and first are 26 Dec and 2 January
18:05:44 [Zakim]
-Stearns
18:05:46 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.aa]
18:05:46 [Zakim]
-bradk
18:05:46 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
18:05:47 [Zakim]
-Molly_Holzschlag
18:05:48 [Zakim]
-hober
18:05:48 [leif]
… check your agenda and tell me whether you're attending so we can decide whether to cancel
18:05:49 [Zakim]
-fantasai
18:05:49 [Zakim]
-darktears
18:05:50 [Zakim]
-koji
18:05:50 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
18:05:50 [Zakim]
-Tantek
18:05:52 [Zakim]
-glenn
18:05:52 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
18:05:52 [Zakim]
-jdaggett
18:05:52 [Zakim]
-dbaron
18:05:55 [Zakim]
-??P43
18:05:56 [Zakim]
-SimonSapin
18:05:57 [fantasai]
jdaggett: There are no subtantial issues against text-decoration
18:05:59 [Zakim]
-Bert
18:06:00 [Zakim]
-glazou
18:06:01 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Unless you have some you haven't raised
18:06:17 [plinss]
zakim, who is on the phone?
18:06:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see krit, plinss, leif, [Microsoft.a]
18:06:49 [Zakim]
-leif
18:06:51 [SimonSapin1]
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18:07:25 [plinss]
fantasai: testing call?
18:09:49 [Zakim]
-krit
18:09:50 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.a]
18:10:02 [Zakim]
-plinss
18:10:03 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:10:03 [Zakim]
Attendees were darktears, glenn, Molly_Holzschlag, +1.415.832.aaaa, krit, glazou, +1.619.846.aabb, plinss, +93192aacc, hober, antonp, +47.23.69.aadd, leif, +33.9.52.34.aaee,
18:10:03 [Zakim]
... fantasai, SimonSapin, +1.650.275.aaff, florian, bradk, Stearns, Tantek, jdaggett, [IPcaller], koji, +1.415.766.aagg, dbaron, Bert, SteveZ, arronei, [Microsoft]
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