16:08:38 RRSAgent has joined #css 16:08:38 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-css-irc 16:08:43 Zakim, this will be Style 16:08:43 ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 52 minutes 16:08:47 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:15:10 mollyholzschlag has joined #css 16:16:23 krit has joined #css 16:40:46 dbaron has joined #css 16:47:40 glenn has joined #css 16:50:10 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started 16:50:17 +??P25 16:51:08 P25 is me 16:51:19 Zakim: P25 is me 16:52:13 Zakim, ??P25 is me 16:52:13 +darktears; got it 16:52:51 zakim, what is the code? 16:52:51 the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glenn 16:53:24 +??P39 16:53:34 zakim, ??p39 is me 16:53:35 +glenn; got it 16:54:05 +Molly_Holzschlag 16:54:14 + +1.415.832.aaaa 16:54:29 florianr has joined #css 16:54:32 Zakim, aaaa is me 16:54:32 +krit; got it 16:54:56 +??P42 16:55:03 Zakim, ??P42 is me 16:55:03 +glazou; got it 16:55:16 Zakim, who is noisy? 16:55:16 +??P43 16:55:26 glazou, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds 16:55:49 Zakim, who is noisy? 16:56:01 glazou, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Molly_Holzschlag (3%) 16:57:37 antonp has joined #css 16:58:07 oyvind has joined #css 16:58:21 +[IPcaller] 16:58:24 jet has joined #CSS 16:59:36 + +1.619.846.aabb 16:59:52 leif has joined #css 17:00:01 +plinss 17:00:05 + +93192aacc 17:00:14 Zakim, aabb is hober 17:00:14 +hober; got it 17:00:26 Zakim, aacc is antonp 17:00:26 +antonp; got it 17:00:33 tantek has joined #css 17:00:35 + +47.23.69.aadd 17:00:37 bradk has joined #css 17:00:47 Zakim, aadd is me 17:00:48 +leif; got it 17:01:09 + +33.9.52.34.aaee 17:01:12 +fantasai 17:01:16 florian has joined #css 17:01:18 Zakim, aaee is SimonSapin 17:01:18 +SimonSapin; got it 17:01:35 + +1.650.275.aaff 17:01:48 Zakim, IPcaller has me 17:01:48 +florian; got it 17:01:49 rhauck has joined #css 17:01:52 Zakim, aaff is bradk 17:01:53 +bradk; got it 17:02:26 +Stearns 17:02:31 +??P82 17:02:36 +Tantek 17:02:39 jdaggett has joined #css 17:02:46 Zakim, mute Tantek 17:02:46 Tantek should now be muted 17:03:25 +[Microsoft] 17:03:39 zakim, ?p82 is me 17:03:39 sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named '?p82' 17:03:47 greetings 17:03:49 Zakim, ??P82 is jdaggett 17:03:49 +jdaggett; got it 17:04:32 sylvaing_away has joined #css 17:04:44 +[IPcaller.a] 17:05:02 zakim, [ipcaller.a] is me 17:05:02 +koji; got it 17:05:07 + +1.415.766.aagg 17:05:50 ScribeNick: leif 17:05:59 +Bert 17:06:00 glazou: extra items? 17:06:18 … nothing 17:06:26 glazou: Need report about Tucson from Molly 17:06:50 mollyholzschlag: Request last meeting was to shift it a day. 17:06:55 mollyholzschlag: Didn't work out too well. 17:07:21 … Feb being a big month, the best option is (as a suggestion) to move one week forward, to 11th 17:07:33 … can have it downtown at the Marriot, walkable to campus and bars 17:07:46 … for those that stay an extra day, can go to biosphere etc. 17:07:59 glazou: problem: w3c workshop about ebooks in NYC from 11-13th 17:08:19 florian: shifting it 1 day was preference, but no-one completely against keeping 17:08:28 cabanier has joined #css 17:08:42 mollyholzschlag: The block I had for Marriot is not available anymore, but still have the Bioshhere 17:08:43 Earlier this week, I created a problem for myself that week (the following week) because we'd said last week that we were committed to the week we'd chosen. 17:09:01 … Big q is whether people … Daniel, you're the only one with a conflict? 17:09:09 glazou: Alan will probably also attend 17:09:30 dbaron: I got a jury duty postponed to that week 17:09:43 mollyholzschlag: Don't have to do it, only if we want that model 17:10:06 … General feeling is not to move right now, stick to dates 17:10:34 … partly biosphere, part downtown, 4-7 Feb 17:10:40 … or any combination 17:10:52 … not going to do anything about moving to next week 17:11:03 … We may have to be in separate hotels 17:11:09 … Housing is only problem 17:11:31 … Resolve to keep dates? Part of problem was adding Thurs, that's when they start running out of rooms 17:11:39 … checking out 7th is ok 17:11:43 glazou: that's enough 17:12:08 mollyholzschlag: someone wanted to move it forward 17:12:11 SimonSapin: ok for me 17:12:19 SteveZ has joined #css 17:12:33 mollyholzschlag: PLEASE use wiki planning page, put your name in there 17:12:43 … in notes section, put special needs, spouse, children etc. 17:12:57 … once I get this all done, have to start working on catering 17:13:11 … Next week I'll come back with hotel to begin reserving 17:13:39 glazou, mollyholzschlag: thanks 17:13:43 I want to mention that next monday (12/10) is a FXTF call. Agenda and times posted on the public-fx mailing list. 17:13:50 Topic: CSS3 Text 17:14:06 glazou: jdaggett objected to LC, we thought merited time onc all 17:14:17 jdaggett: bunch of issues I posted 17:14:27 … some have solutions, some just require a bit more head-scratching 17:14:31 … figure out what is needed now 17:14:54 … text-justify: what it is and why it's needed. is it the best way to accomplish this? 17:15:00 … It's a bit underdefined 17:15:08 … In San Diego I said we need use cases 17:15:17 … an example was added, but doesn't expalin UC. 17:15:40 … Set a string in multiple scripts, but doesn't show you why 17:15:58 florian: Wouldn't put it that way, but I share some concern. 17:16:08 … when introduced, it was overly specific 17:16:15 … good for justification 17:16:34 … Gives implementors flexibility, but so flexible that it is somewhat meaningless 17:16:41 … can conform without making sense 17:17:02 +??P14 17:17:04 jdaggett: A number of specific issues were filed not just -justify 17:17:15 … until we go through those [noise] 17:17:24 jdaggett: posted to the list 17:17:29 … filed in tracker 17:17:30 -antonp 17:17:33 … linked from spec 17:17:49 glazou: So we have quite a strong objection 17:17:50 +SteveZ 17:17:56 florian: I object almost as strongly 17:18:04 glazou: So we need to solve these issues before going to LC 17:18:32 jdaggett: I'm not sure these issues are so high prio that we need to push through on calls before the next F2F 17:18:34 s/object almost as strongly/don't object as strongly, but I agree with the concerns/ 17:18:37 … better to do it then 17:18:49 glazou: letter-spacing does not need conf call time? 17:18:58 jdaggett: That's an issue that is easier to resolve, so could talk about it 17:19:00 … or later 17:19:03 glazou: later 17:19:08 … more time for flexbox 17:19:16 fantasai: What about text-decoration? 17:19:23 … in a separate spec go to LC? 17:19:38 glazou: I think fantasai is asking whether you also object to that 17:19:51 jdaggett: Not looked at it, not on agenda 17:20:20 ACTION jdaggett loko at text-decoration spec and object or agree to LC 17:20:20 Created ACTION-526 - Loko at text-decoration spec and object or agree to LC [on John Daggett - due 2012-12-12]. 17:20:42 Topic: Publish WD CSS3 Fonts 17:20:45 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/#recent-changes 17:20:56 jdaggett: number of significant changes 17:20:59 s/Loko/Look 17:21:02 … FontLoader events 17:21:10 … changes to syntax of @font-feature-values 17:21:14 … to OM 17:21:16 … and a few others 17:21:33 … I think FontLoader object will go through changes as people comment 17:21:45 +[Microsoft.a] 17:21:51 … Need to make sure it's completely accurate, but it's been reviewed by a number of people. We can publish 17:21:55 zakim, microsoft has me 17:21:55 +arronei; got it 17:21:56 glazou: Prev. WD from end of Aug 17:22:08 … No objections. 17:22:13 sounds good 17:22:26 RESOLVED: Publish WD CSS3 Fonts 17:22:36 Topic: CSS Flexbox issues 17:22:37 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012OctDec/0251.html 17:22:57 There have been several issues filed against Flexbox since the CR. 17:22:57 We wanted to make sure everyone gets a chance to review them and 17:22:57 make sure the changes are correct. (And then of course we'll need 17:22:57 to publish an update.) 17:22:57 The changes are summarized in: 17:23:00 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/#changes 17:23:02 The relevant diffs are: 17:23:05 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/2dfe9b0d813f/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html 17:23:07 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/c963d3ec23b8/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html 17:23:10 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/9d29cc6d8a95/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html 17:23:12 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/284a967553ae/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html 17:23:15 The last change is the trickiest one, and we'd really like Rossen and 17:23:17 Alex Mogilevsky to review it. The thread begins at 17:23:20 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0781.html 17:23:22 We also rejected two change requests: 17:23:25 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0460.html 17:23:27 See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0462.html 17:23:30 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0010.html 17:23:32 glazou: Many of the confidential messages you sent deserve to be public 17:23:32 See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0041.html 17:23:35 and would like the CSSWG to review and, if everyone agrees, ratify that. 17:23:46 fantasai summarizes 17:23:47 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0460.html 17:24:03 fantasai: 1. special case negative margins and clamp them to zero 17:24:25 … could be nonsensical, but Tab and I want to just let them do it 17:24:35 … maybe author wanted something weird 17:24:40 … we propose not changing it 17:24:52 florian: Wouldn't happen by accident, might as well give them that. 17:25:04 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0010.html 17:25:14 RESOLVED: First diff: no change. 17:26:10 issue described here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0041.html 17:26:37 fantasai: 2. Should an image a max-height constraint affect the max-width constraint when there's an aspect ratio 17:26:42 … we say no 17:26:49 … specifying the flex is kind of like specifying the width 17:26:57 Rossen: That makes sense. 17:27:36 SteveZ: In other places we try to preserve aspect ratio. 17:27:51 -??P14 17:27:52 +[Microsoft.aa] 17:27:57 fantasai: We consider the aspect ratio when calculating the hypothetical size 17:28:12 Rossen has joined #css 17:28:12 SteveZ: And i suspec that's the best you can do in this circumstance 17:28:24 … even without flexbox if I set a width I can destroy aspect ratio. 17:28:35 … Seems strange to consider flexing a fixed width 17:28:45 fantasai: Not a fixed width, but it's kind of like 100% 17:28:50 … The only thing in the box. 17:29:07 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/2dfe9b0d813f/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html 17:29:12 … The changes, 3 are minor, the last still being discussed on mailnig list 17:29:13 thinks that if AR is specified, then should take priority 17:29:25 … First minor one: When deciding whether to use stretch 17:29:32 tantek has changed the topic to: Please add yourself to http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tucson-2013#participants if you intend to participate in the 2013 February f2f in Tucson, AZ, USA. 17:29:34 … you check the computed cross-size property 17:29:53 … What happens if it's specified as a percentage and can't be resolved, treated as auto 17:30:14 … You check the computed cross-size prop, which means you get auto behavior and no stretching 17:30:31 … We're open to doing things different, but this simplest thing, to just check the computed size 17:30:32 drublic_ has joined #css 17:31:07 RESOLVED (from earlier): Second diff, no change. 17:31:33 glazou: move on? 17:31:38 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/c963d3ec23b8/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html 17:31:46 fantasai: 3rd diff: Fixed an error 17:31:52 … needs review 17:31:56 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/9d29cc6d8a95/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html 17:32:17 … 4th diff: Floats may not have an effect, but may affect display property 17:32:30 … Clarify that takes effect and still becomes a flex item 17:32:39 … Probably should review it 17:32:43 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0781.html 17:32:43 … Last diff 17:32:47 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/diff/284a967553ae/css3-flexbox/Overview.src.html 17:33:09 … Would like Rossen and Alex Mogilevksy to review 17:33:16 … Does it match IE, or different and better 17:33:22 Rossen: We will review, maybe today 17:33:33 … close this next week 17:33:51 ^fantasai 17:33:55 fantasai: address Kenny's comments 17:34:13 Topic: Case insensitivity of identifiers from TPAC 17:34:33 ?: Is Tab on the call? 17:34:40 glazou: No, in Hawaii, poor him 17:34:50 glazou: So what do we do? 17:34:57 florian: Please remind me of conclusion of last discussion 17:35:06 … which options did we eliminate? 17:35:17 plinss: At TPAC we deferred to i18n 17:35:25 … they came back and said to do case folding 17:35:25 florian has joined #css 17:35:59 q+ to ask which case-folding? There are two, aren't there? A simnple and a complex one. 17:35:59 florian: Main arg. for not doing that is that in other places, like HTML, they do ASCII case insensitivty. 17:36:19 ?: They said to do full case-insensitivity 17:36:36 florian: Hard to do 17:36:38 s/?/jdaggett/ 17:36:50 … Nothing says which language a stylesheet is in 17:36:55 smfr has joined #css 17:37:00 poor bradk too… :-) 17:37:06 fantasai: Set of default rules to use when you don't know the language for text-transform 17:38:15 Bert: Which of the two case-folding algorithms from Unicode did i17n recomend? 17:38:26 … The simple one is better than full 17:38:29 s/i17n/i18n 17:38:36 florian: Other than language sensitivty, what is the difference? 17:38:47 fantasai: I have to look into that 17:38:58 … two sets: one that preserves the length of the string, on ethat doesn't 17:39:12 Bert: the German sharp s 17:39:21 … wouldn't be folded in the simple algo. 17:39:36 florian: No particular reason for us to care about string length changing. 17:39:39 fantasai: agrees 17:39:58 fantasai: Two axes: constant string length or language sensitivity 17:40:04 … def. don't want to be language sensitive 17:40:21 florian: Dont' know the implications, but from conceptual standpoint, makes sense 17:40:50 jdaggett: The big problem is that you're making a distinction for … 17:41:02 I think florian is noisy, people speaking french in the background 17:41:07 ( identifiers, i18n mailing list … ) 17:41:21 florian: Slowly moving towards full unicode 17:41:27 jdaggett: I don't see that happening 17:41:36 SteveZ: HTML is pretty solidly set on not doing that 17:41:55 dbaron: Defined lots of things as ASCII case sensitive when comparing things that are ASCII 17:42:10 s/comparing things/comparing to things/ 17:42:25 someone in a lunch room? 17:42:28 Zakim, who is here? 17:42:28 On the phone I see darktears, glenn, Molly_Holzschlag, krit, glazou, ??P43, [IPcaller], hober, plinss, leif, SimonSapin, fantasai, bradk, Stearns, jdaggett, Tantek (muted), 17:42:32 ... [Microsoft], koji, dbaron, Bert, SteveZ, [Microsoft.a], [Microsoft.aa] 17:42:32 [IPcaller] has florian 17:42:32 [Microsoft] has arronei 17:42:32 On IRC I see smfr, florian, Rossen, SteveZ, cabanier, sylvaing_away, jdaggett, rhauck, bradk, tantek, leif, oyvind, antonp, glenn, dbaron, krit, mollyholzschlag, RRSAgent, Zakim, 17:42:32 ... glazou, koji, Ms2ger, liam, SimonSapin, teoli, darktears, isherman 17:42:45 Zakim, who is ??P43? 17:42:45 I don't understand your question, tantek. 17:42:52 glazou: More to say? we haven't solved it 17:42:56 s/sensitive when/sensitive, mostly when/ 17:43:04 florian: Should determine what's standing between us and conclusion 17:43:16 are there URLs to specific alternatives being considered? 17:43:24 plinss: Not hearing strong arguments against doing Unicode case folding 17:43:40 anne k had a pretty strong argument on the i18n list 17:43:43 fantasai: confirming that we are staying on the call with plinss and arronei to discuss the css 2.1 test suite? 17:44:04 rhauck: yep 17:44:15 http://www.w3.org/mid/CADnb78gbNqHBtnxqhukZnZFO8Z4bjJJC2mC3JdVW7WqT6D7aLQ@mail. 17:44:15 gmail.com 17:44:20 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2012OctDec/0109.html 17:44:21 SimonSapin has joined #css 17:44:26 jdaggett: That one? 17:44:36 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2012OctDec/0109.html 17:44:41 glazou: yeah that one 17:44:43 yes 17:44:49 fantasai: What is case insensitive in HTML? 17:45:13 @name/@id comparison? 17:45:15 Chris: tags and attributes 17:45:20 s/Chris/krit 17:45:29 florian: is the pasted mail the only argumetn? Not particularly strong 17:45:40 fantasai: You can't make up your own, and they're all ascii 17:45:48 s/You/Traditionally, you/ 17:45:54 getElementsByClassName in quirks mode 17:46:00 disagreed, I think Anne's position of "look at the platform holistically" is the right position. 17:46:13 florian: Unless particular problems, support full Unicode 17:46:27 glazou: dbaron poitned out anne's answer, but what about you? 17:46:49 dbaron: Agree, but probably not as strongly 17:47:11 florian: Anne's point is weakened by what fantasai just said 17:47:25 … when mostly talking about ascii things, difference is not great. 17:47:40 … Now that we are considering that, we shouldn't feel constrained 17:47:50 krit: XML-based languages are case sensitive 17:47:51 -SimonSapin 17:47:57 (In HTML I think all tokens defined by HTML are case-insensitive except for entity names.) 17:48:05 … CSS is used for those as well 17:48:08 Ms2ger - this might be a good case where it makes sense to be consistent with HTML first, and then raise it to TAG to look at from a "platform holistically" perspective. 17:48:15 krit: Not sure it actually matters for us 17:48:23 plinss: only matter for elements and selectors 17:48:28 +SimonSapin 17:48:34 … this is only about identifiers, user identifiers specifically 17:48:39 florian: Consistency 17:48:44 more important to be consistent with HTML than XML 17:48:53 … is already broken 17:48:59 SteveZ: Don't need to make it worse 17:49:05 florian: But might win something on another front 17:49:15 "on another front" sounds hypothetical, and thus discardable 17:49:26 SteveZ: No strong opinions, but anne's solution could get interoperable 17:49:45 glazou: Full unicode solves only edge cases? 17:49:49 yes, exactly what daniel just said... 17:50:00 SteveZ: … (didn't hear it) 17:50:24 florian: For French, full case insensitivity doesn't help. 17:50:46 Florian: ... people tend not to type uppercase accented characters with keyboards 17:50:50 SteveZ said before: Trying to track bugs for edge cases is bigger pain than the value of being insensitive, and interop would suffer 17:50:58 excellent summary SteveZ 17:51:05 glazou: If we don't implement case insensitivty, what does it mean for the architecture of the wb 17:51:13 … will we be inconsistent? 17:51:25 this looks like a good subject for a TAG finding 17:51:26 fantasai: We'll be consistent, and non-ASCII langs can't use case insensitivity. 17:51:46 florian: Practical for French, but not eg. Norwegian 17:52:10 fantasai: Leif's name would be fully insensitive, Håkon's would be excerpt the å 17:52:21 florian: Nobody can type the upper case in French 17:52:28 fantasai: I don't have trouble? 17:52:36 florian: Not É on regular keyboard 17:52:45 glazou: only Windows keyboards! 17:52:55 florian: Huge number of people don't know how to type it 17:53:01 rathole? 17:53:02 fantasai: Weird thing, but not relevant 17:53:18 florian: only a theoretical problem 17:53:30 … but if it's common enough, we're not buying anything 17:53:53 plinss: back to www-international, a test case shows IE, Opera Chrome being interop on case-insensiutive comparison of class idents 17:54:03 … Argument that we dno't do it isn't valid, it is done 17:54:11 dbaron: version of Firefox? 17:54:30 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2012OctDec/0110.html 17:54:31 dbaron: We change it to ASCII case-insensitive 17:54:36 http://www.inter-locale.com/test/css-case-sensitive-test.html 17:54:45 "A quick survey of browsers on my desktop computer using the following page shows that IE9, Opera, Safari, and Chrome are already non-ASCII case-insensitive (only FF seems to be ASCII-only case-insensitive):" 17:55:05 dbaron: Oh, he said only Firefox 17:55:05 relevant HTML5 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#case-sensitivity 17:55:18 plinss: I don't think Anne's point holds a lot of water 17:55:24 dbaron: Talking of other parts of the platform 17:55:29 "Classes from the class attribute of HTML elements in documents that are in quirks mode must be treated as ASCII case-insensitive for the purposes of selector matching." 17:55:30 plinss: Here you have CSS and HTMl 17:55:40 "Everything else (attribute values on HTML elements, IDs and classes in no-quirks mode and limited-quirks mode, and element names, attribute names, and attribute values in XML documents) must be treated as case-sensitive for the purposes of selector matching." 17:55:40 … pretty good part of the platform! 17:55:45 dbaron: What is this testing? 17:55:54 glazou: Class names 17:56:00 dbaron: Testing exactly one thing 17:56:11 http://www.inter-locale.com/test/css-case-sensitive-test.html 17:56:21 florian: If we don't actually have consistency, we don't actually have something to be consistent with 17:56:22 historical reference for interest: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/html.html#ID-5353782642 17:56:25 dbaron: Well, what's the right thing? 17:56:32 florian: i18n said full unicode 17:56:45 glazou: Old browsers do what majority of browsers do 17:56:50 … spec is what browsers do 17:57:01 … IE, Opera, Chrome already do the same thing 17:57:10 florian: Not user-defined identifiers 17:57:20 … take a poll? 17:57:24 q+ to ask: Mac and Windows have case-insensitive file systems, what algo do they use? 17:57:43 Bert: Most ppl are used to Windows, what do they do? 17:57:48 florian: in what context? 17:57:52 Bert: File names 17:58:04 … UNIX doesn't do case folding, Mac and Windows do 17:58:23 florian: Most people don't type names 17:58:25 … they click 17:58:50