15:57:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-media
15:57:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/04-html-media-irc
15:57:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:57:43 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-media
15:57:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 63342
15:57:45 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
15:57:46 <ddorwin> ddorwin has joined #html-media
15:57:46 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
15:57:46 <trackbot> Date: 04 December 2012
15:58:00 <adrianba> zakim, this will be html
15:58:00 <Zakim> ok, adrianba, I see HTML_WG()11:00AM already started
15:58:16 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:58:30 <paulc> zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc and adrianba
15:58:30 <Zakim> +paulc, adrianba; got it
16:00:30 <adrianba> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Dec/0000.html
16:00:37 <adrianba> Chair: Paul Cotton
16:00:42 <adrianba> ScribeNick: adrianba
16:00:50 <adrianba> Scribe: Adrian Bateman
16:00:56 <pal> pal has joined #html-media
16:00:56 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/04-html-media-minutes.html adrianba
16:01:02 <adrianba> rrsagent, make logs public
16:01:18 <BobLund> BobLund has joined #html-media
16:01:24 <Zakim> + +1.425.202.aaaa
16:01:48 <ddorwin> zakim, aaaa is me
16:01:48 <Zakim> +ddorwin; got it
16:02:44 <adrianba> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:02:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0, [Microsoft], ddorwin
16:02:45 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has paulc, adrianba
16:02:46 <Zakim> + +1.310.210.aabb
16:02:48 <chriho> I am
16:02:54 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:03:05 <pal> zakim, aabb is me
16:03:05 <Zakim> +pal; got it
16:03:11 <paulc> Who is <chriho>?
16:03:27 <chriho> can I listen?
16:03:41 <chriho> writing my master thesis about EME
16:03:58 <Zakim> -??P0
16:03:59 <paulc> This is a MSE meeting.
16:04:09 <Zakim> +Aaron_Colwell
16:04:13 <chriho> ok
16:04:40 <acolwell> acolwell has joined #html-media
16:04:40 <paulc> Chriho:  Are you a HTML WG member?
16:05:03 <chriho> only public
16:05:17 <adrianba> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], ddorwin, pal, [Microsoft.a], Aaron_Colwell
16:05:17 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has paulc, adrianba
16:05:45 <paulc> Then I suggest you drop off this call and contact me at pcotton@microsoft.com to discuss invited expert status so you can join the next EME call.  Okay?
16:05:57 <adrianba> s/Chriho:/Chriho,/
16:05:58 <chriho> Okay, I dropped it
16:06:01 <johnsim> johnsim has joined #html-media
16:06:23 <adrianba> TOPIC: Roll call, introductions and selection of scribe
16:06:25 <adrianba> paulc: done
16:06:33 <adrianba> TOPIC: Previous meeting minutes
16:06:51 <adrianba> paulc: we took most of November off so I pointed to the TPAC F2F minutes
16:06:53 <adrianba> http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html
16:07:02 <Zakim> +??P30
16:07:09 <adrianba> paulc: we might need to pick on peoples' memory for some items
16:07:16 <adrianba> zakim, P30 is BobLund
16:07:16 <Zakim> sorry, adrianba, I do not recognize a party named 'P30'
16:07:21 <BobLund> zakim, ??P30 is me
16:07:21 <Zakim> +BobLund; got it
16:07:33 <Zakim> + +1.760.533.aacc
16:07:38 <adrianba> TOPIC: Review of action items
16:07:42 <adrianba> ACTION-6?
16:07:42 <trackbot> ACTION-6 -- Aaron Colwell to give a couple of examples for section 2 -- due 2012-11-01 -- OPEN
16:07:42 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/6
16:07:56 <adrianba> acolwell: I sent out a message right before TPAC but no one responded
16:08:24 <pladd> pladd has joined #html-media
16:09:04 <acolwell> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Oct/0062.html
16:09:47 <adrianba> acolwell: I've already started work on this - i assumed that silence meant nobody objected
16:09:56 <adrianba> close ACTION-6
16:09:56 <trackbot> ACTION-6 Give a couple of examples for section 2 closed
16:10:26 <adrianba> acolwell: i'll land these changes in a couple of stages because some is removing things, some is rewriting, etc
16:10:54 <adrianba> paulc: I had an action item at the WG level
16:11:00 <adrianba> ... ACTION-223
16:11:10 <adrianba> ... http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/223
16:11:17 <adrianba> ... this is related to bug 17002
16:11:34 <adrianba> ... we had two discussions - the first implied that we might need a change to IDs for 5.1
16:11:55 <adrianba> ... later we picked up 17002 again and decided that there was a solution that removed the dependency on 18960 or any changes in HTML 5.1
16:12:10 <adrianba> ... i believe this action item isn't need for MSE?
16:12:43 <adrianba> acolwell: we don't require it any more but we might need to link to something
16:13:07 <adrianba> paulc: the issue from TPAC is do we want to link to HTML 5.1 or HTML 5.0
16:13:12 <adrianba> acolwell: ok
16:13:24 <adrianba> paulc: my plan is to close ACTION-223 since we don't need this
16:13:43 <adrianba> acolwell: we don't have the dependency any more
16:13:53 <adrianba> paulc: let's deal with the detail when we discuss 18960
16:14:04 <adrianba> TOPIC: Baseline documents and Bugzilla information
16:14:06 <glenn> glenn has joined #html-media
16:14:31 <adrianba> paulc: aaron, you made an update on 28 nov
16:14:49 <adrianba> ... one bug 19531 appears to be done but was not in your summary of changes
16:15:20 <adrianba> s/in your summary of changes/marked as resolved/
16:16:27 <adrianba> acolwell: i didn't resolve it because there was a comment in the thread that it was ambiguous if the user agent supported a MIME type that it automatically implied MSE also had to support the MIME type and i'm making some modifications that it is possible for an element to play a MIME type but MSE doesn't need to
16:17:12 <adrianba> acolwell: within a day or so i will complete this bug
16:17:46 <paulc> Summary of Nov 28 changes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Nov/0012.html
16:18:16 <adrianba> paulc: you've mentioned immiment changes - can you summarise which are the changes you have in mind
16:18:44 <adrianba> acolwell: i've been working on 19531 we just discussed, i also started on 18575 (removing sub-sections from section 2)
16:18:58 <adrianba> ... concentrating on things i said i would remove and moving 2.4 and 2.5 into section 8
16:19:55 <adrianba> paulc: let's go through the bugs in the order i have them
16:20:12 <adrianba> acolwell: those are the ones i started - i was about to start on more and the discussion can help drive that
16:20:27 <adrianba> TOPIC: Actions from F2F meeting
16:20:42 <adrianba> paulc: i said in the agenda that we should discuss items that are still pending
16:20:54 <adrianba> ... but i'd like to go to topic 6 on bugs because it's mostly the same
16:20:54 <Zakim> + +1.858.677.aadd
16:21:11 <adrianba> ... i'd like to step us through some of the items and record what is outstanding and next steps
16:21:18 <adrianba> TOPIC: Discussion of outstanding bugs
16:21:49 <adrianba> paulc: the first pair of bugs we've partially touched on 18960 and 17002
16:22:18 <adrianba> ... 17002 first, adrianba took an action item to implement a change removing the dependency on 18960
16:22:49 <adrianba> adrianba: i updated the bug this morning and assigned it to me
16:23:05 <adrianba> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17002#c9
16:23:40 <adrianba> paulc: now 18960
16:23:49 <adrianba> ... wasn't obvious from the meeting minutes what action we took
16:23:53 <adrianba> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18960
16:24:25 <adrianba> acolwell: i believe the result was that MediaSource should generate unique IDs because the consensus was keeping them stable was more important than linking to the media
16:24:40 <adrianba> ... think simon suggested we could add another property for the media id
16:24:46 <adrianba> ... let me check my notes
16:25:07 <pal> P.S.: i need to relocate and drop off IRC
16:25:25 <adrianba> acolwell: david singer suggested unique and generated by media source object
16:25:42 <adrianba> ... i think mark suggested a way to pass IDs to media source but don't think that ended up going anywhere
16:26:13 <adrianba> paulc: can you do 18960 in two stages: put the F2F recommendation as a comment in the bug so it is recorded then is it on your TODO list?
16:26:32 <adrianba> acolwell: if people are okay saying they are generated and unique then i can do that
16:26:39 <adrianba> q+
16:26:54 <adrianba> paulc: yes, but we need to put that in the bug
16:27:02 <adrianba> ack me
16:27:57 <adrianba> adrianba: i think it is fine to add the unique IDs - we can always change later if we find we need the link back to media IDs
16:28:02 <adrianba> acolwell: i agree
16:28:19 <adrianba> paulc: then let's include this comment in the bug - we're not adding the link until we get more implementation experience
16:28:37 <adrianba> ... if someone sees that and gives a reason for why it should be mandatory
16:29:18 <adrianba> acolwell: part of the reason why simon mentioned having a separate field is because this allows adding without violating HTML5
16:29:26 <adrianba> paulc: next is 18962
16:29:39 <adrianba> ... this is pending a change from adrianba
16:30:04 <paulc> See https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18962#c3
16:30:42 <adrianba> adrianba: this is XHR append
16:30:44 <Zakim> -pal
16:30:53 <adrianba> ... i started work on the related actions from WebApps
16:31:04 <adrianba> ... creating new XHR spec and updating Streams spec which we'll need to link to
16:31:13 <adrianba> ... we can then add the append() method for Stream
16:31:19 <Zakim> +pal
16:31:21 <adrianba> ... and we'll need two events for complete and error
16:31:40 <adrianba> ... but i have a separate question on events
16:31:51 <adrianba> paulc: do you have an ETA?
16:32:14 <adrianba> adrianba: i have friday morning to work on this but i need to coordinate with aaron on the changes he's making
16:32:29 <adrianba> paulc: 18963 - looks like the F2F minutes say we will throw an exception
16:32:34 <adrianba> ... is this on your pending list?
16:32:45 <adrianba> acolwell: yes, i was thinking of adding that as part of the next change
16:33:02 <adrianba> paulc: 19531, which we've already discussed
16:33:36 <adrianba> paulc: 17094 - we have a proposal from Bob Lund - there was an attempt to have an action on glenn to do something here but it didn't get recorded because tracker didn't recognise glenn
16:33:47 <adrianba> ... i'd like to know the status of this because we have a concrete proposal
16:34:02 <adrianba> ... glenn reached out to bob and myself and we've been having a side discussion about the outstanding issues
16:34:35 <adrianba> ... we've been iterating on that - yesterday i proposed an alternate proposal for how to do appending that restricts out of order appending for TS
16:34:50 <adrianba> ... you can't do out of order append without intervening abort call
16:35:04 <adrianba> ... which is different to the other formats but the only way i can see to make TS sane
16:35:23 <adrianba> ... we're making progress on it
16:35:35 <adrianba> ... i need to send out a proposal to the list saying where we are
16:35:36 <adrianba> q+
16:35:47 <adrianba> acolwell: is that fair, Bob?
16:35:54 <adrianba> BobLund: yes
16:35:56 <adrianba> ack me
16:36:53 <adrianba> adrianba: can you put a link to the mail in the bug once sent?
16:37:46 <adrianba> ... also can we get something into the spec sooner rather than later and then iterate on it separately
16:37:54 <adrianba> acolwell: i'll try to get something in there then
16:38:07 <adrianba> TOPIC: Progression to First Public Working Draft
16:39:10 <adrianba> paulc: chairs met yesterday and the question i was asked by the team was when are we going to see the FPWD of media specs
16:39:22 <adrianba> ... w3c is starting to get questions from outside about progress of the work
16:39:45 <adrianba> ... despite all the public information about bugs, drafts, etc. but the team is asking what are the next steps
16:40:24 <adrianba> ... so the question is of the pending bugs which are blocking bugs that this group wants to process before a CfC for FPWD inside the Task Force subsequently followed by sending to the WG for a CfC for publication at the WG level
16:40:28 <acolwell> q+
16:40:35 <adrianba> ... i'll give a candidate list
16:40:51 <adrianba> ack next
16:41:00 <adrianba> acolwell: what are the criteria for FPWD?
16:41:11 <adrianba> .. is it okay to add details but not scope?
16:41:20 <adrianba> paulc: i'll try to answer but the answer is subjective
16:41:36 <adrianba> ... you only have to agreement on going to FPWD not on all of the content
16:41:58 <adrianba> ... many FPWD have links to bugs in the document to emphasise that some things are not final
16:42:06 <adrianba> ... the second item we spoke about before the summer
16:42:31 <adrianba> ... general agreement on EME and MSE - we wanted the API design to be right because it would be misleading to public a FPWD of the old design and then immediately change to a new one
16:42:44 <adrianba> ... i think that item subject to some of the work in 18575 is largely done
16:43:05 <adrianba> ... so the only other matter is the patent policy trigger that fires on FPWD
16:43:20 <adrianba> ... members have 150 days to disclose or exclude patents on the draft
16:43:48 <adrianba> ... so you want the scope to be clear to people so that if they do an active patent search then the material in the document is a good indication of where the group intends to take the document
16:44:06 <adrianba> ... i think we've done the API design although there are some interesting bugs
16:44:17 <adrianba> ... and on the last item, scope, we're close to done
16:44:29 <adrianba> ... we're receiving pressure to show visible progress i.e. FPWD
16:44:38 <adrianba> ... we don't have to be bug clean - that's Last Call
16:45:20 <adrianba> ... so my question is which of the outstanding bugs does the TF want to get done before sending to WG with a list of outstanding bugs and say these are items we continue to work on but want to publish FPWD
16:45:45 <adrianba> pal: one question for the editors is whether the resolution of some of these bugs will cause a substantial change to the document
16:46:04 <adrianba> ... perhaps we can see if those bugs will cause major changes
16:46:14 <adrianba> acolwell: i don't anticipate major changes from the remaining bugs
16:46:52 <adrianba> pal: for example on the seamless transition requires structural changes that is one thing but it might just be an annexe
16:47:00 <adrianba> acolwell: i can give an initial list
16:48:39 <Zakim> - +1.760.533.aacc
16:49:11 <adrianba> acolwell: 19531 (mime type), 18963 (rate limit appending), 18960 (id generation), 18962 (XHR), 18615 (buffered), 17094 (TS), 17002 (tracks), 17006 (language/kind)
16:49:26 <adrianba> ... those seem structural to the API and aren't just detail
16:49:42 <adrianba> paulc: that's pretty close to the list that adrian and i had
16:49:45 <Zakim> + +1.650.485.aaee
16:50:07 <adrianba> zakim, mute aaee
16:50:07 <Zakim> +1.650.485.aaee should now be muted
16:50:24 <adrianba> acolwell: will check on 18615
16:50:33 <adrianba> paulc: does anyone want to propose something else?
16:51:11 <adrianba> pal: 19784 timestamp offset in the case of a multiplex - i'd like to get an idea of how the editors plan to address that
16:51:43 <adrianba> paulc: this wasn't discussed at F2F
16:51:54 <adrianba> acolwell: think we didn't get to it - came in right before TPAC
16:52:18 <adrianba> paulc: pal, you're saying it's hard to answer the question without knowing the outcome of this bug
16:52:22 <adrianba> pal: yes
16:52:23 <adrianba> q+
16:52:45 <adrianba> acolwell: isn't this just related to considering the start of the segment where video is not audio
16:53:05 <adrianba> pal: this is if audio starts before video and you want to sync on video boundary
16:53:19 <adrianba> acolwell: this is about UA figuring out which timestamp to use
16:53:37 <adrianba> acolwell: i don't think this changes the append method signature
16:53:40 <adrianba> ack me
16:54:20 <adrianba> adrianba: when asked how should the editors process a bug i look for the spec text in the bug
16:54:38 <adrianba> ... when i don't find some then my question is to turn it back to the group and ask for a concrete proposal
16:54:50 <Zakim> -BobLund
16:55:08 <adrianba> pal: can the other bug on seamless go in FPWD?
16:55:29 <adrianba> paulc: we have to be careful because we can't put everything in or else we'll never get there
16:55:40 <adrianba> acolwell: i don't think these are blocking because they won't change the API shape
16:55:53 <adrianba> ... we definitely need to address the bugs but i don't think they are blocking
16:56:19 <adrianba> pal: if the threshold is whether an API change is needed then i can look at the bugs and see if i think they will change API
16:56:50 <adrianba> paulc: even if they will affect the API, we might still not need to take them if they're not of the same magnitude as the changes in the summer
16:57:01 <Zakim> -ddorwin
16:57:35 <adrianba> paulc: i'm going to take aaron's list, pal wants to consider 19673 and 19784
16:57:57 <adrianba> ... i'd like to see a plan from the editors on the list saying what order they are going to address them in and by when
16:58:04 <adrianba> ... then i can go back to the team with a plan
16:58:32 <adrianba> ... if it turns out one of the bugs will take a long time perhaps we'll change our mind on if we need it
16:59:05 <adrianba> ... i want to see the plan in two weeks and preferably well before then
16:59:27 <adrianba> ... if we have something on the list i can point people outside the TF to that
16:59:33 <adrianba> ... is that okay?
16:59:37 <adrianba> adrianba: yes
16:59:56 <adrianba> acolwell: i think this list is easy to knock out, xhr is probably the most difficult
17:00:39 <adrianba> paulc: for everyone involved in EME, you can expect the same questions next week
17:01:11 <adrianba> TOPIC: Other business
17:01:14 <adrianba> paulc: none
17:01:23 <adrianba> TOPIC: Chair and Scribe for next meeting
17:01:49 <adrianba> paulc: next meeting is dec 18 and then would be jan 1, when we probably won't meet, so it's important to make progress before the next meeting
17:01:59 <adrianba> TOPIC: Adjournment
17:02:10 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:02:11 <Zakim> -pal
17:02:12 <adrianba> paulc: good progress today, we're adjourned
17:02:16 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:02:17 <Zakim> -Aaron_Colwell
17:02:22 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
17:02:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/04-html-media-minutes.html adrianba
17:02:31 <Zakim> - +1.650.485.aaee
17:02:43 <adrianba> zakim, bye
17:02:43 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were paulc, adrianba, +1.425.202.aaaa, ddorwin, +1.310.210.aabb, [Microsoft], pal, Aaron_Colwell, BobLund, +1.760.533.aacc,
17:02:43 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-media
17:02:44 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
17:02:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/04-html-media-minutes.html adrianba
17:08:17 <adrianba> trackbot, end meeting
17:08:17 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:08:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:08:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/04-html-media-minutes.html trackbot
17:08:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:08:26 <RRSAgent> I see no action items