15:43:34 RRSAgent has joined #mlw-lt 15:43:34 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-mlw-lt-irc 15:43:38 meeting: MLW-LT WG 15:43:41 chair: felix 15:44:47 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0016.html 15:44:56 regrets: naoto 15:49:15 present. felix, arle 15:49:21 topic: role call 15:49:27 waiting for attendees ... 15:49:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 15:50:19 daveL has joined #mlw-lt 15:50:59 present: felix, arle, dave 15:51:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 15:56:49 leroy has joined #mlw-lt 15:59:00 present +Dave_Lewis 15:59:35 DomJones has joined #mlw-lt 16:00:10 Serge has joined #mlw-lt 16:00:13 scribe: Arle 16:01:25 Ankit has joined #mlw-lt 16:01:26 tadej has joined #mlw-lt 16:01:42 Yves_ has joined #mlw-lt 16:01:48 Topic: Issues Check 16:01:50 present+ Yves_ 16:02:31 test typing 16:02:31 mdelolmo has joined #mlw-lt 16:02:34 shaunm has joined #mlw-lt 16:02:35 present+ Ankit 16:02:41 present+ Arle 16:03:05 present +shaunm 16:03:24 present+ tadej 16:03:31 present+ DomJones 16:03:36 present+ Dave_Lewis 16:03:38 +1 on short ;) 16:03:41 present+ 16:03:42 present+ mdelolmo 16:03:44 topic: Issues check 16:03:52 https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/open 16:04:07 present+ leroy 16:04:21 Milan has joined #mlw-lt 16:04:22 topic: Terminology 16:04:27 Felix: We can publish a feature-complete draft without addressing the edtiorial bits in section 1. 16:04:30 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0263.html 16:04:52 dF has joined #mlw-lt 16:05:01 Felix: We want to make people aware of this. We discussed not using TermConfidence global. Marcis is OK with this change. Any comments? 16:05:02 pnietoca has joined #mlw-lt 16:05:04 present+ dF 16:05:12 topic: Disambiguation 16:05:13 ..No comments. Moving on. 16:05:25 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#disambiguation-global 16:05:46 Felix: We had various actions to finalize disambiguation. Main change is that now global attributes are parallel to local attributes. Thanks to Tadej for providing that. 16:05:47 Pedro has joined #mlw-lt 16:05:58 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0014.html 16:06:05 .. One additional topic emerged on the weekend: casing of granularity attribute. 16:06:19 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0023.html 16:06:22 present+ pnietoca 16:06:22 .. Mail thread shows that it might be more convenient to use lower-case values. 16:06:30 "lexicalConcept > lexical-concept" 16:06:38 .. Changes to the draft are posted by Felix. 16:06:42 ontologyConcept >ontology-concept 16:06:43 Des has joined #mlw-lt 16:06:58 present +Des 16:07:06 Clemens has joined #mlw-lt 16:07:44 .. This saves the problem of relating HTML5 and XML versions. 16:07:45 philr has joined #mlw-lt 16:07:48 present +philr 16:08:06 .. Felix: Will make this change prior to making the final call. Then we can see this. 16:08:20 Action: Felix to update casing in disambiguation. 16:08:20 Created ACTION-355 - Update casing in disambiguation. [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-10]. 16:08:44 topic: Provenance 16:08:57 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#provenance-global 16:09:02 Felix: People need to be aware of latest changes. See mail. 16:09:16 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#EX-provenance-local-1 16:09:18 s/mail./URL./ 16:09:25 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/examples/xml/EX-provenance-local-1.xml 16:09:46 topic: Localization Quality Rating 16:09:49 .. We added the profRef. 16:10:08 Jirka has joined #mlw-lt 16:10:15 s/profRef/provRef 16:10:16 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#lqrating-implementation 16:10:23 Felix: We had the question of whether the value should be 0 to 1 or 0 to 100. The draft now has 0 to 100. 16:10:23 present+ Pedro 16:11:42 Phil: Given that it is a decimal number I don't mind. I thought we were going 0 to 1, but some people (Des?) felt that 0 to 100 is more intuitive. But as long as it is decimal it doesn't really matter. 16:12:18 Des: This conversation was a long time ago. 0 to 100 is good because it maps to percentages, but I don't care a lot either way. 16:12:52 Felix: If we want to move forward and both solutions work, use 0 to 100 so we don't need to change things in the spec and slow things down. 16:12:59 topic: Localization Quality Issue 16:13:10 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0266.html 16:13:10 Serge: Industry uses 1 to 10 or 1 5to 5. But anything works here. 16:13:16 chriLi has joined #mlw-lt 16:13:22 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#lqissue-typevalues 16:13:27 Felix: Arle made some clarifications in the type definition. See the draft. 16:13:29 present+ chriLi 16:13:43 scribe: fsasaki 16:13:49 arle: three changes there made 16:13:58 .. two were strictly explanatory, one was normative 16:14:08 .. there was a clarification needed related to terminology 16:14:18 .. daniel as an implementor asked about that 16:14:33 .. we clarified that in the "lqissue type" table 16:14:55 .. the 2nd change was about white space 16:15:13 .. daniel pointed out that this type should relate to any type of white space issue 16:15:42 .. that is in general, not only related to translation 16:15:57 .. third change: 16:16:26 .. daniel asked if register would apply to something like spelling, e.g. british vs. american 16:16:38 .. I made a clarification that these woudl go under local violation 16:16:48 s/woudl/would/ 16:16:48 scribe: arle 16:16:59 topic: toolsRef change 16:17:48 Felix: This is the last one. Summary is that there was a thread about the usage of the ToolRef mechanism and its differentiation from provenance. In this thread it became clear that we needed to clarify the relation. 16:17:49 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/File:Its20-annotation-edits.docx 16:18:07 .. I created an annotated document with the draft. 16:18:17 (Felix does screen sharing to show the annotation) 16:18:46 Pablo: I reviewed it and it looks fine. 16:19:17 "annotatorsRef" 16:19:21 Felix: We renamed ToolRef to AnnotatorsRef. 16:19:33 .. This clarifies that it relates to annotations. 16:19:37 s/ToolRef/toolsRef/ 16:20:35 .. We added explanatory text. It separates three different pieces of tool-related information. 16:21:53 Dave: I read it and it seems clear. One minor note: "should always" sounds mandatory, but maybe it doesn't matter as it is in a note. Perhaps say "should" instead of "should always." 16:21:56 Do we have a definition for "annotation"? 16:22:10 .. I think it is a good change. 16:22:32 Felix: We don't have a formal definition here. 16:23:11 .. Christian, do you want a different term? This was meant as a note. 16:23:44 Christian: It's not about the term itself. It's fine. More it is that if we are talking about annotations and have three kinds of processes, we need to be clear what we mean by "annotation." 16:24:01 .. Wouldn't modification of textual content count as annotation? 16:25:22 .. There are two questions: (1) should we be very explicit about what we mean by "annotation"? (2) Should that definition go in this note or elsewhere? 16:26:02 Felix: If we would add new normative text to explain the note, I would worry. I see the point but I would rather change the note and not add a normative definition. 16:26:16 Christian: I was thinking only of the non-normative explanation. 16:26:43 Felix: Would you like an action to phrase such a definition (wherever we put it)? I agree it would help. 16:26:58 .. We don't use the term "annotation" outside of this. 16:27:10 Christian: I'm not sure I could work on it under the current time line. 16:27:58 Felix: Since it is non-normative, it would not influence our timeline. We could still go to last call. Your time line would be whenever we progress the document. There are many parts that need clarification (especially in sections 1 and 2). 16:28:06 Christian: Then I could do it. 16:28:21 Action: Christian to draft non-normative definition of "annotation" 16:28:21 Created ACTION-356 - Draft non-normative definition of "annotation" [on Christian Lieske - due 2012-12-10]. 16:28:38 Dave: Could we refer to Annex H to deal with this issue? 16:28:45 "create ITS annotations;" > "create ITS annotations, see the [link to list of elements / attributes in annex H];" 16:28:58 Felix: That would be one way. Is what I typed what you mean? 16:29:01 Dave: Yes. 16:29:09 Fredrik has joined #mlw-lt 16:29:36 Felix: I think some clarification is needed, but I think that works. 16:29:50 Felix: Chrstian, is 10.December good? 16:30:03 Christian: More time would be good. 16:30:10 action-356: time line will be updated 16:30:10 ACTION-356 Draft non-normative definition of "annotation" notes added 16:30:17 Felix: Let us know when you an do it. 16:30:34 s/an do/can do/ 16:30:45 topic: Vote for last call publication 16:31:13 Felix: Last call means that we (WG) think the draft is feature complete and are looking for outside feedback until at least 10 January. 16:31:17 https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/open?sort=due 16:31:30 .. We did all actions need for publication. 16:31:37 +queue 16:31:48 queue 16:31:55 .. Before publication we need to make the change in disambiguation case and AnnotatorsRef. 16:32:04 Zakim has joined #mlw-lt 16:32:29 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/TR-version/#status 16:32:30 Christian: Can you briefly explain the procedure around publication/last call for comments? What does it mean? Where do comments go? 16:33:01 "The normative sections of this document (from Section 3: Notation and Terminology to Section 8: Description of Data Categories and Appendix A: References to Appendix D: Schemas for ITS) are stable. The other, non-normative sections contain only explanatory material and will be updated in a later working draft. Hence, the Working Group especially encourages feedback on the normative... 16:33:03 ...sections. The goal is to move out of last call without any substantive changes to these sections." 16:33:11 Felix: That will help those are new. See the link I supplied. That link goes to the status. See the paragraph I pasted as well. 16:33:23 "To give feedback send your comments to public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org. Use "Comment on ITS 2.0 specification WD" in the subject line of your email. The archives for this list are publicly available. See also issues discussed within the Working Group and the list of changes since the previous publication." 16:33:48 "The Last Call period ends 10 January 2013." 16:34:15 Felix: We will gather comments sent to that list until 10 January. Then the WG has to come back to all commenters to make sure that they are satisfied with our response. 16:34:42 .. This is something not new to some of us, but let me show what we will work with. 16:34:57 http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/lc-replies.html 16:36:00 .. We create a "disposition of comments." For each comment (even spelling mistake) and non-normative clarification we supply what the comment was, when it was received, etc. + what change (if any) we made. We need to respond to these to move to the next stage if we are to say that the public considers it complete. 16:36:27 .. If there are normative changes, we would have to go back to last call. So that is why we don't want to have any delay. 16:36:33 shaunm has joined #mlw-lt 16:36:39 q+ 16:36:47 Christian: Thanks for the review. 16:36:56 Dave: What happens if the reviewer isn't satisfied? 16:37:09 "formal objection" 16:37:46 Felix: We can go back and forth, but if the reviewer isn't satisfied he can file a "formal objection" to moving forward. If nothing helps, the reviewer has to have a call with the co-chairs and the director (Tim Berners-Lee or designee). This rarely happens. 16:38:04 .. They do happen, but outside of HTML5 , it is rare. 16:38:10 ack jir 16:38:21 s/HTML5 , it/HTML5 it/ 16:38:42 q+ 16:38:58 Jirka: When do you need to be done? I'd like to put more documentation in the schema (not a normative change). 16:39:25 Felix: I can send it for publication, but I can tell the manager that there are still a few unstable files until Wednesday. 16:39:47 Jirka: That would be OK with me. I have put schema in the appendix. It is linked like examples. 16:40:23 Felix: I think that is OK. If the webmaster accepts the files it should be fine. 16:40:38 Jirka: It's not super important, but nice to have, and I can work on it tomorrow. 16:41:20 Felix: I can send the draft today, but I can tell the webmaster that we need to change certain parts that are auto-generated. We would know by today where we are on this. 16:41:38 ack q 16:41:41 ack c 16:41:57 Christian: On disposition of comments, is there a timing related to that? 16:42:17 Felix: Only related to our charter. 16:42:23 http://www.w3.org/2011/12/mlw-lt-charter 16:42:32 http://www.w3.org/2012/09/mlw-lt-charter.html 16:42:46 Our candidate recommendation phase is that we are supposed to be out of last call in March. 16:43:10 If we have comments by 10 January, we have 2 months 3 weeks to get back and get positive answers. 16:43:30 .. For ITS 1.0 we had 60 comments. It took a lot of effort. 16:43:39 s/Our candidate/.. Our candidate/ 16:43:48 s/If we have/.. If we have/ 16:44:01 .. Our timeline supplies the pressure. 16:44:16 topic: Vote for last call publication 16:44:40 Felix: Are you happy with publishing it with the explanations concerning the state and next steps. 16:44:48 s/steps./steps?/ 16:44:58 .. Is everyone OK with it? 16:45:18 Jirka: Did you discuss the issue of case sensitivity? 16:45:32 Felix: Yes. We said we would move from camel case to lc + hyphen. 16:45:40 https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/355 16:46:31 "lexicalConcept > lexical-concept" 16:46:47 "ontologyConcept > ontology-concept" 16:46:55 Jirka: Thanks. That clarifies it. 16:47:13 Felix: I will make these schema changes. 16:47:46 Felix: Who wants it to be published? 16:47:53 Various: We do. 16:47:56 +1 16:48:00 +1 16:48:01 :-) 16:48:04 Felix: Silence is agreement, but positive votes are good too. 16:48:25 Felix: I am happy that we have a feature-complete set for ITS 2.0. 16:48:29 x1 :-) 16:48:36 I need to run, guys.. Thanks everyone for your good work! 16:48:38 Action: Felix to prepare last call publication. 16:48:38 Created ACTION-357 - Prepare last call publication. [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-10]. 16:48:51 topic: Next steps 16:48:56 +q 16:49:13 +q 16:49:57 ack chr 16:49:58 Dom: Reminder about testing-suite webinar tomorrow. 16:50:31 Christian: About the last call. Of course I have full confidence in your procedural knowledge. Do we need to ask for abstains or objections? 16:50:46 Felix: Normally it is enough to record an affirmative vote. 16:51:05 Christian: I abstain. 16:51:07 I vote to publish. 16:51:17 ack Pe 16:51:30 Pedro: +q 16:52:00 s/Pedro: +q/Pedro: What about the deadlines Arle mentioned?/ 16:52:13 Felix: Let's go through next steps first. 16:52:15 topic: Next steps 16:52:34 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Dec/0025.html 16:52:40 Felix: We need feedback from outside. 16:53:01 .. Currently the outside comment list is empty. Use the email draft I posted to get reviewers. 16:53:14 .. Can you ask for individuals to provide feedback? 16:53:31 .. Type your name if you can ask people individually. 16:53:32 Arle 16:53:35 +q 16:53:42 ack chr 16:53:54 I can ask people at WeLocalise, Alchemy and Symantec 16:53:55 Christian: Is there a way to avoid us all asking the same people for review? 16:54:24 Arle: I will ask IBM, Lionbridge, SDL. 16:54:52 I should be able to ask comments to a few Localization tools developers. 16:56:23 Pedro, I can ask also a couple of people 16:56:39 +q 16:57:05 + q 16:57:17 +q 16:57:34 Arle_ has joined #mlw-lt 16:57:52 scribe: Arle_ 16:58:03 ack chri 16:58:05 I'll need to discuss who I talk to with my Business Development Managers 16:58:45 Felix: People are to submit names to Arle, Felix, Nieves by Wednesday. They will respond on overlap by Friday. 16:58:59 Christian: [Arle missed the question] 16:59:25 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2012OctDec/0070.html 16:59:32 Felix: We will send a notification to other chairs. We also have a requirement to send an announcement to the XLIFF TC because our charter specifies that. 16:59:40 ack shau 16:59:57 Shaun: What people would be appropriate to invite? 17:00:09 sorry, I've to go to another meeting 17:00:26 Felix: The current draft is not stable for explanatory sections, so it doesn't make sense to invite high-level business people. We need people who can provide technical details. 17:00:47 .. People in localization, LT, etc. can provide feedback. 17:01:04 .. Anyone who might apply ITS 2.0 in a technical sense. 17:01:25 Shaun: I talk to two open-source localization tool developing groups. They are not implementers now, but may be. 17:01:45 Felix: It makes sense to me. Contact those who might implement and who would need to know technical details. 17:02:12 .. I focused on technical aspects. We need to make sure it is easy to integrate ITS. 17:02:18 .. In their tools 17:02:46 Felix: I will nudge some of your to get more people for comments. 17:03:00 .. One issue: we need a native-speaker check on the document. 17:03:19 topic: Upcoming calls and AOB 17:03:49 Felix: Although we are in last call, I propose that we continue calls on 10 December at least. 17:04:05 .. We can discuss outreach and EC issues. 17:04:52 Arle: We might talk to Serge about Localization Professionals. 17:05:04 Serge: It would go to 18,000 people on LinkedIn. 17:05:33 .. About 45% are client-side, 30% LSP. So you need to be particularly clear about what you want. 17:05:36 ./me I need to leave now, best regarrds 17:05:41 DomJones has left #mlw-lt 17:05:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 17:07:01 Action: Felix to work on Localization Professionals announcement draft 17:07:02 Created ACTION-358 - Work on Localization Professionals announcement draft [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-10]. 17:07:02 action: felix to prepare localization professionals linked in mail draft 17:07:02 Created ACTION-359 - Prepare localization professionals linked in mail draft [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-10]. 17:07:37 Topic: EC issues 17:08:28 Pedro: Regarding the deadlines, there are three things. (1) Is there a difference between those that are due already versus those that are ongoing? 17:08:48 .. (2) For ongoing things we can send something by the 10th. 17:09:10 .. (3) For tasks that involve other task leaders, we need help from them to prepare this. 17:10:19 Felix: Clarification. We know about the Month 12 report. The idea is not that Arle writes it, but rather that it is a template. We need it by the 10th for the report. But note that this it not a statement about a final outcome or to provide all technical details. 17:10:46 .. We really need a few paragraphs about the current state. This will be public. Please expect there to be public readers. 17:11:16 .. Two aspects: (1) reporting; (2) something easy to understand. Perhaps you can reuse some use-case text from Prague meeting. 17:11:43 .. Some people didn't write anything yet who may not have their own implementation, but we need information on everything. 17:11:53 scribe: fsasaki 17:12:03 arle: if there is something this is not relevant yet 17:12:10 ... you can ommit that 17:12:25 .. the report is just to re-assure that things are going as we intend 17:12:47 q+ 17:12:57 pedro: mail arle sent about the action is not only about work packages leaders 17:13:08 .. but for all task leaders, and the contributors 17:13:15 ack yve 17:13:27 Jirka has left #mlw-lt 17:13:31 yves: what should the contributors do 17:13:38 Jirka has joined #mlw-lt 17:13:46 .. send something individually, or to whom? 17:13:55 arle: I assigned the actions to the task leaders 17:14:04 .. so make that clear with your task leader 17:14:20 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Deliverables 17:14:44 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/WP3 17:15:18 www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/WP5 17:15:57 Felix: It you look at out deliverables sections, some task leaders will need help. I encourage, especially for Cocomore, don't wait to ask for information. Please send information on to the task leaders. 17:16:15 .. Please be proactive. 17:16:27 Clemens: Thanks. I'll send an email to remind people. 17:17:15 Dave: I've been through the process recently, but the Commission had page-length restrictions. 17:17:34 Arle: I believe it isn't super particular. 17:17:45 Action: Felix to confirm page restrictions in report with Kimmo. 17:17:45 Created ACTION-360 - Confirm page restrictions in report with Kimmo. [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-10]. 17:19:33 Dave: Do we need to provide finance updates/cost claims or does that need to wait until after the end of the year? 17:19:42 Action: Felix to confirm dates for financial updates 17:19:42 Created ACTION-361 - Confirm dates for financial updates [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-10]. 17:20:48 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Deliverables 17:21:27 q+ 17:22:20 Pedro: Can we have more time than Dec. 10? 17:22:59 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use_cases_-_high_level_summary 17:23:40 Felix: Yes, the deadline is short. The goal is to get the report done before Christmas. But the good news is that we don't need super detailed information. That link has probably enough information. We might be able to repurpose that already. A few more days would be OK. 17:24:00 .. We don't need a lot of material, but rather soon. Could we say 12th or 13th for you? 17:24:11 Pedro: For me it is fine, but it depends on the speed of the answers. 17:25:12 Arle: I asked for a best-case level of detail. 17:25:22 Pedro: I will ask for two paragraphs from everyone. 17:25:42 Felix: Who are you waiting for answers from? 17:26:27 Pedro: Declan, Daniel, Phil. VistaTEC is the one I don't know about and can't comment on. 17:26:32 felix: I'll take care of vistaTec 17:26:47 Action: Felix to clarify VistTEC status for annual report. 17:26:47 Created ACTION-362 - Clarify VistTEC status for annual report. [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-10]. 17:27:08 Pedro: Clarify for action 3.2 17:27:37 .. I will take care of Lucy and DCU this week. 17:28:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 19:25:48 Jirka has left #mlw-lt 20:29:29 Zakim has left #mlw-lt 20:57:53 rrsagent, bye 20:57:53 I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-mlw-lt-actions.rdf : 20:57:53 ACTION: Felix to update casing in disambiguation. [1] 20:57:53 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-mlw-lt-irc#T16-08-20 20:57:53 ACTION: Christian to draft non-normative definition of "annotation" [2] 20:57:53 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-mlw-lt-irc#T16-28-21 20:57:53 ACTION: Felix to prepare last call publication. [3] 20:57:53 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-mlw-lt-irc#T16-48-38 20:57:53 ACTION: Felix to work on Localization Professionals announcement draft [4] 20:57:53 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-mlw-lt-irc#T17-07-01 20:57:53 ACTION: felix to prepare localization professionals linked in mail draft [5] 20:57:53 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-mlw-lt-irc#T17-07-02-1 20:57:53 ACTION: Felix to confirm page restrictions in report with Kimmo. [6] 20:57:53 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-mlw-lt-irc#T17-17-45 20:57:53 ACTION: Felix to confirm dates for financial updates [7] 20:57:53 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-mlw-lt-irc#T17-19-42 20:57:53 ACTION: Felix to clarify VistTEC status for annual report. [8] 20:57:53 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-mlw-lt-irc#T17-26-47