13:48:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #e2r
13:48:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-e2r-irc
13:49:25 <shadi> shadi has changed the topic to: Easy-to-Read on the Web Online Symposium 3 December 2012 -- http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/2012/easy-to-read/
13:58:45 <Cordula_Edler> Cordula_Edler has joined #e2r
14:00:57 <logic11> logic11 has joined #e2r
14:04:23 <annika_nietzio> annika_nietzio has joined #e2r
14:05:49 <kmatausc> kmatausc has joined #e2r
14:09:47 <Makoto_Ueki> Makoto_Ueki has joined #e2r
14:10:02 <alejandro_mosquera> alejandro_mosquera has joined #e2r
14:10:37 <Alejandro_Mosquera> Alejandro_Mosquera has joined #e2r
14:17:22 <klaus> klaus has joined #e2r
14:18:31 <Michael_Schaten> Michael_Schaten has joined #e2r
14:18:37 <Michael_Schaten> Hallo all!
14:20:21 <kmatausc_> kmatausc_ has joined #e2r
14:23:47 <Roberto_Tedesco> Roberto_Tedesco has joined #e2r
14:23:48 <jku_webUsabilityHH8> jku_webUsabilityHH8 has joined #e2r
14:24:27 <Chris> Chris has joined #e2r
14:25:08 <fhoerschlaeger> fhoerschlaeger has joined #e2r
14:26:07 <MatsL> MatsL has joined #e2r
14:28:44 <Nicoleta> Nicoleta has joined #e2r
14:35:25 <apetz> apetz has joined #e2r
14:36:29 <fhoerschlaeger> test
14:36:35 <apetz> Test
14:36:39 <Roberto_Tedesco> test
14:37:56 <Nicoleta> Hallo
14:37:59 <test> test has joined #e2r
14:38:03 <test> test
14:38:17 <kmatausc_> Could anyone please say something? I have the impression that I can't hear anything.
14:39:02 <kmatausc_> :)
14:39:18 <kmatausc_> thx
14:39:39 <apetz> Perhaps because this is the ICR Chat? :)
14:40:12 <test> test has left #e2r
14:40:53 <Chris> test
14:45:08 <kmatausc_> no audio from Birgit
14:45:26 <kmatausc_> she'll try to join the symposium via chat
14:46:02 <birgit_p> birgit_p has joined #e2r
14:47:09 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #e2r
14:49:27 <mike> mike has joined #e2r
14:49:46 <mike> hallo
14:50:27 <Cordula_Edler> I want to join via chat too. But I am not shure how, beacause in the chat are no information where the discussion is going on.
14:51:18 <shadi> hi cordula -- the symposium will start in 10 minutes
14:51:24 <Cordula_Edler> ok
14:51:38 <mike> will there be a video stream?
14:51:43 <sharper> sharper has joined #e2r
14:51:45 <kmatausc_> Hi Cordula, You're on the right channel.
14:52:44 <birgit_p> hi shadi, I configured my microfon, can you test my line again please?
14:52:54 <shadi> hi mike -- there will be live captioning
14:54:14 <Lisa_Caid> Lisa_Caid has joined #e2r
14:54:43 <Alejandro_Mosquera> Hello
14:56:18 <Ginny_Redish> Ginny_Redish has joined #e2r
14:56:27 <carolido> carolido has joined #e2r
14:56:51 <Leealaura_Leskela> hello everyone
14:57:14 <hoehl> hoehl has joined #e2r
14:57:20 <ChrisKouroupetrog> ChrisKouroupetrog has joined #e2r
14:57:48 <Vincent_Vandeghinste> Vincent_Vandeghinste has joined #e2r
14:58:45 <NicoleJack1_ca> NicoleJack1_ca has joined #e2r
15:00:06 <markel> markel has joined #e2r
15:00:42 <kzakza> kzakza has joined #e2r
15:01:47 <timo_overmark> timo_overmark has joined #e2r
15:01:53 <mike> how get the video stream?
15:02:29 <Nicoleta_> Nicoleta_ has joined #e2r
15:02:42 <birgit_p> here you can get the live captioning: http://www.streamtext.net/player?event=CFI-W3
15:02:59 <gwen_traverse> gwen_traverse has joined #e2r
15:03:06 <logic11> logic11 has joined #e2r
15:03:11 <Andrew> Andrew has joined #e2r
15:03:47 <Michael_Schaten> hello all!
15:03:50 <mike> whats that?
15:04:03 <mike> no audio no video?
15:04:19 <infogathering> infogathering has joined #e2r
15:04:29 <Michael_Schaten> mike, there is audio
15:04:38 <aardit> aardit has joined #e2r
15:04:39 <Michael_Schaten> connect via SIP
15:04:56 <shadi> audio is only available for registered participants because there are only limited lines
15:05:08 <shadi> otherwise please follow the live captioning
15:05:15 <mike> funny
15:05:52 <kyunghee_Ko> kyunghee_Ko has joined #e2r
15:06:50 <Roberto_Tedesco> Is it my problem, or the audio of karl is low quality?
15:07:14 <Sami_Alli> Audio is not very good here also
15:09:06 <carolido> carolido has left #e2r
15:09:22 <clayton_lewis> clayton_lewis has joined #e2r
15:09:37 <Carol_Ido> Carol_Ido has joined #e2r
15:10:15 <clayton_lewis> shadi, I don't think I am on the phone bridge correctly... I can hear but I was not prompted for the personal code so I fear you may not be able to unmute me
15:10:22 <kyunghee_Ko> kyunghee_Ko has left #e2r
15:10:39 <shadi> yes, clayton -- you are on the phone bridge
15:10:39 <Carol_Ido> It is hard to hear Kersten, incoming volume is very low
15:10:51 <clayton_lewis> ok
15:11:10 <Chris> optional  not up to now
15:12:34 <hoehl> clayton: I was not prompted for the personal ID either, but go ahead and enter it (followed by #) and it will identify you to the coordinators
15:13:22 <clayton_lewis> ok, thx
15:13:23 <karina_lattner> karina_lattner has joined #e2r
15:15:40 <Christina> Christina has joined #e2r
15:16:04 <Patrick> Patrick has joined #e2r
15:16:34 <MatsL> Must not the guidlines refer to the intended readers and consumers of the web content and services?
15:17:18 <Jana_Becker> Jana_Becker has joined #e2r
15:20:18 <Carol_Ido> How can I, as a web developer, evaluate my website for E2R? Are there published guidelines to follow?
15:20:59 <addosman> addosman has joined #e2r
15:22:46 <MatsL> I and Katarina agree with Leealaura +1
15:22:57 <Chris> is it not a bit like visual impairment and blindness? Plain language for the ones with some (diffrerent)  reading problems and easy to read for those with more profound reading and understanding challenges? However, WCAG deals with both visual and blindness.
15:24:22 <birgit_p> European Guidelines for e2r you can get here: http://inclusion-europe.org/en/projects/past-projects/pathways-i
15:27:02 <apetz> Clayton: Just type in your personal code whenever you want. You are not prompted to do so, but can only speak when you entered it!
15:27:42 <shadi> clayton is all set, thanks
15:27:55 <Carol_Ido> Thanks birgit_p, great information on the inclusion-europe site.
15:28:26 <Michael_Schaten> thx birgit, really valuable information from inclusion-europe
15:30:08 <mike> it would be nice if you could go for an better conference software
15:31:33 <Vincent_Vandeghinste> mike: I agree
15:32:15 <Michael_Schaten> I linke finish talking :)
15:32:47 <Michael_Schaten> I need to correct my previous sentence: I LOVE finish taliking! :)
15:34:17 <xxx> xxx has joined #e2r
15:36:05 <jennyd> jennyd has joined #e2r
15:36:27 <Patrick> Could the standards section about language-specific specifications be grouped by language families?
15:36:30 <Leealaura_Leskela> Thank you, Michael :)
15:36:56 <Leealaura_Leskela> Patrick, that is a good starting point, I think
15:37:19 <Patrick> Thank you.
15:40:09 <MatsL> Vincent: For this issue http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20120103/G153
15:40:57 <mike> bye
15:41:43 <kmatausc_> @Patrick: The "Information for all" standards have a kind of a core of criteria and additional criteria for different language families
15:43:04 <Vincent_Vandeghinste> thank you MatsL
15:44:49 <katarina_m> katarina_m has joined #e2r
15:47:21 <Patrick> Thank you @kmatausc. Will definitely check this out.
15:48:16 <kmatausc_> Welcome.
15:50:47 <MatsL> Vincent: We should get together after this to discuss possible cooperation in relation between your work and our CCF (Concept Coding Framework) based work, OK?
15:52:09 <Vincent_Vandeghinste> ok, can you send me an email about this?
15:52:10 <klaus> We have used text4all Terminology Interpreter (available at www.text4all.net/interpreter.jsp). It’s a tool that can recognize terminology (based on glossaries) that is not in the canonical form, using fuzzy matching.  This tool adapts web pages by recognizing and labeling terminology. The definitions of the recognized terms are then being added into the adapted web page.
15:54:34 <apetz> The right liink would be: Text4all.net/interpreter.jsp not .gsp like in the caption.
15:55:21 <apetz> Always too late
15:56:08 <Chris> Can MIA automatically operate on all forms? Or do you adapt form by form?
15:56:26 <kmatausc_> good question.
15:57:08 <kmatausc_> If it won't be answered now, we will keep this for the later discussion.
15:57:19 <clayton_lewis> re task support: i v ramakrishnan at stony brook u in usa has done some work on this, in the context of screen reader use
15:58:46 <Whitney> Whitney has joined #e2r
15:59:02 <MatsL> Vincent: I will
16:01:12 <Chris> Sorry did not get this.
16:05:46 <Vincent_Vandeghinste> American measurement -> automatic measurement
16:07:29 <Vincent_Vandeghinste> such other based -> such avatar based
16:07:30 <apetz> Thank you Vincent for this information!
16:08:53 <Chris> It provides a different presentation, but not changing the complexity of the explaining texts? Or where do the texts come from?
16:10:37 <Jana_Becker> @Chris: One of the advantages of MIA is that this avatar can be used for every kind of form. It is an overlay tool, which can be individually be adjusted and this regarding text and speech and pointing. So it won’t make a difference on which form MIA operates. In contrast to “normal” avatars, MIA is a tool that can be used by every interested organization/ company, etc. when MIA will be introduced to the market. But of course MIA’s ins[CUT]
16:10:49 <Jana_Becker> be adjusted for the first time for a specific form.
16:12:03 <Chris> thanks Jana; I wait to sse it coming on the market! It has a good potential as alternative presentation for many people.
16:14:33 <Vincent_Vandeghinste> Resource languages. (audio breaking up). In English. -> less resources languages than English
16:16:56 <Chris> Concerning transferability, it looks like putting a framework in WCAG and allow for cultural - language  dependent adaptations?
16:17:28 <Patrick> @vincent_vandeghinste: About transferability of icons to translated concepts, could we inspire our practice on the approach used in signed language? And is the use of icons a guarantee people with reading issues will attach the appropriate concept (annotation + connotation) to the pictographs?
16:19:23 <Vincent_Vandeghinste> Patrick: Sign languages differ and are considered real 'natural languages', so I think it is not that strong the case with pictographs. Nevertheless they are being developed in specific situations, but they can be transfered
16:19:54 <Vincent_Vandeghinste> Patrick: Children learn to use the pictographs at school, so that helps, of course
16:20:09 <kmatausc_> pictographs help to understand the text content.
16:20:10 <Chris> Ported to other languages means newly parameterised at least!?
16:20:41 <klaus> The tool presented here, like many other tools addressing terminology do support transferability to other languages and domains, having direct dependencies on the glossaries and training data or corpora.  However, tools that are rule based and care about the grammar of a language, are usually language dependent. Also, based on the nature, the scope of the text <informative (technology news), empowering people (medical recommendations) or others> and with [CUT]
16:21:18 <kmatausc_> in parts pictographs / symbols also help to understand written information beyound a language. But please remind that cultures have a big impact on comprehension (i.e. perception how a person understand something.)
16:21:27 <apetz> Also pictorgraphs must be out of the known representations - e.g. senior citizens don´t recognise a pictograph sowing a flat screen as "TV" - came up at a study with domotic controls...
16:21:40 <Vincent_Vandeghinste> Patrick: The use of icons does of course not guarantee that the users will attach the appropriate concept, but the pictographs are rather clear, in my opinion. Of course, this is also not guaranteed with normal language and non-disabled users
16:21:49 <kmatausc_> thank you, andrea. absolutely true.
16:22:01 <apetz> So it is necessary to test this - even within the same national population...
16:22:04 <Chris> A German study
16:22:29 <jennyd> did some of klaus reading of Vasile Topac's answer get missed from IRC?
16:22:39 <Chris> on signs came up with the recommendation to used photos for clarity, at least in some contexts.
16:23:25 <apetz> Yes, because of the limitation of characters
16:23:44 <kmatausc_> HERE IS THE ANSWER OF VASILE:
16:23:50 <kmatausc_> The tool evaluated in this test can present term definitions in several ways. The majority of the participants preferred having the definitions  ...
16:23:59 <kmatausc_> presented in the page by request (click or right click on the term) or as tooltip over the term.  ...
16:24:03 <Carol_Ido> Is there a resource that presents side-by-side illustrations of an original source document and one interpreted through an e2r tool?
16:24:09 <kmatausc_> .. Only few participants preferred inline definitions. So the user preferences do not fully match the recommendation from "Sufficient Techniques for 3.1.3
16:24:16 <kmatausc_> ... Unusual Words" in WCAG 2.0, where the recommendations for presenting definitions of terms are definition lists, inline or by link. We would suggest adding tooltips too.
16:24:27 <kmatausc_> that was Vasile's answer.
16:25:25 <Patrick> Vincent_Vandeghinste: I asked as in the example, the house pictograph is attached to a "home", which has a different connotation to me (maybe in Dutch, there is no differentiation), but to me, the connotation side of any concept has to be considered. Thank you for your input though.
16:26:34 <kmatausc_> @Carol. We will keep this with us for the discussion. Thank you.
16:27:59 <jennyd> Thanks Kmatausc_ got it!
16:27:59 <Vincent_Vandeghinste> Patrick: That's just me giving an inappropriate translation. In Dutch we make the distinction between 'thuis' which is 'home' and 'huis' which is 'house', but in the case of I am coming home, we say 'I am coming to house'
16:28:32 <Vincent_Vandeghinste> Patrick: But I agree. Nevertheless, the same holds, as is clear from the example, in the difference between natural languages
16:29:54 <Vincent_Vandeghinste> I am sorry people, but I have to go. You can email me for further discussion. Cheers.
16:31:09 <Vincent_Vandeghinste> Vincent_Vandeghinste has left #e2r
16:34:07 <Michael_Schaten> strange mic... Seems to work now though...
16:34:27 <shadi> we'll come back to you
16:34:32 <Michael_Schaten> thanks
16:35:48 <Chris> Klaus, I agree. But it could be also be taken up under different level A, AA, AAA.
16:36:42 <klaus> ... good argument - yes, I agree
16:37:02 <Chris> Did Finland not ratify the UN convention?
16:37:56 <klaus> might not be in the national law ... same in Austria
16:38:07 <klaus> not yet
16:38:27 <Leealaura_Leskela> No not yet ratified in Finland
16:38:29 <Sami_Alli> Yes, it has not been ratified in Finland
16:38:40 <Sami_Alli> Late :-)
16:39:08 <Chris> oops, I did not recignise that. Hope, it  will come for Finland.
16:39:25 <klaus> once more from Vasile - sorry for mistake before:
16:39:27 <klaus> The tool presented here, like many other tools addressing terminology do support transferability to other languages and domains, having direct dependencies on the glossaries and training data or corpora.  However, tools that are rule based and care about the grammar of a
16:39:45 <klaus> language, are usually language dependent. Also, based on the nature, the scope of the text <informative (technology news), empowering people (medical recommendations) or others> and with the risks associated with reducing text authority or text readability we can recommend among NLP tools that fully replace terminology, or only label it.
16:40:09 <Sami_Alli> Chris: we are "a bit" slow on that matter...
16:50:15 <Chris> Klaus. the process is one important eement; a functional description of the kind of outcome of the process could also be an element of  a standard.
16:50:22 <jennyd> IDD? can somebody tell me what this is?
16:50:48 <kmatausc_> IDD = intellectual developmental disabilities
16:51:32 <jennyd> thanks again kmatausc!
16:52:39 <kmatausc_> again ... Welcome :o)
16:57:50 <Michael_Schaten> for those who would like to grab a first impression of the actual prototype of my glossary service: www.knoffit.de (german version) or www.nl.knoffit.de (dutch version)
16:57:59 <klaus> Chris, this is part of any ISO 9000 approach... it pushes towards formulating goals, following standards, including users, ...
16:58:10 <Michael_Schaten> Input and comments are greatly appreciated
16:58:50 <Michael_Schaten> youre welcome :)
17:00:54 <markel> markel has left #e2r
17:02:45 <Patrick> shawn: thank you for your cue about this at a11yMTL. I would not be here without you telling me about this initiative.
17:03:09 <shawn> :-)
17:03:58 <shawn> Glad that you were able to participate, Patrick. You have some good questions ready for the next session in a few minutes? :)
17:05:52 <shawn> s/Glad that you were able to participate, Patrick. You have some good questions ready for the next session in a few minutes? :)/Glad that you have been able to participate, Patrick. Do you have some good questions ready for the next session starting in a few minutes? :)/
17:06:43 <Patrick> I might, but I'll see if they are asked: I am more of a practitioneer than a scholar/standards person. My questions might be  too down to earth I believe. We'll see.
17:07:42 <kmatausc_> Back again. :)
17:08:48 <NicoleJack1_ca> NicoleJack1_ca has left #e2r
17:10:19 <apetz> back again...
17:11:49 <apetz> @patrick: i would slap a fishbot if I could... :) all questions are important to mainstream e2r
17:12:33 <klaus_miesenberger> klaus_miesenberger has joined #e2r
17:15:34 <shawn> To get on the speaker queue, on your phone keypad type 41#
17:23:44 <Cordula_Edler> thank you very much for this intersting diskussion. Iwas very surprised who, where and what is in the CHANNEL easy to read. three remarks. 1)	e-inclusion and UN-Convention  asked for information in easy to read   2)	easy to read information in the Web are not only understandable texts  3) we need more information about the target groups (qualitative research)
17:29:12 <birgit_p> thank you Cordula
17:30:15 <Roberto_Tedesco> a "concept lexicon" is basically an ontology
17:30:52 <klaus_miesenberger> could Mats point us to ressources for the concept coding framework
17:35:15 <jennyd> shadi I have no audio, I have checked and it is not my end
17:35:44 <jennyd> I can follow real time text so no worries, but just in case others are having problems
17:35:52 <Andrew> if e2r gets incorporated into level A it might seem strange to leave sign-language at level AAA
17:36:24 <shawn> For captioning transcript: "That is great. I wanted to support what Clayton had said about the difference between correlation and actual comprehension..." is Ginny Redish speaking
17:36:25 <Chris> Andrew, I agree.
17:39:13 <shawn>  For captioning transcript: "There should be more than just a grammatical or sentence length analysis to really see what text,..." is  Thea_van_der_Geest
17:40:41 <shawn> For captioning transcript: "As I was just about to dial the number, what I would like to say is that I agree with what Clayton said and Ginny said, that about this perspective. I'm not sure whether this gives any new light to the discussion. But we have a service in the center here that is..." is Leealaura_Leskelä speaking
17:42:59 <shawn> for transcript: "Well, as a content strategist and Web writer I'm not a standards person like a lot of people here.... " is  Patrick_Lévesque
17:43:36 <MatsL> MatsL has joined #e2r
17:44:40 <Nicoleta_> The question is always: What to write in what form for what audience.
17:45:29 <shawn> For transcript: "Same question came up at the Dutch, we will call tech demonstration or Internal Revenue Service, and they decided to create like two..." is Thea_van_der_Geest
17:47:25 <Nicoleta_> So this means that E2R will have to stay a service?
17:47:38 <Nicoleta_> A specialised service
17:49:09 <shawn> For transcript: "I wanted to make the point that plain language works for everyone..." is Ginny_Redish
17:50:53 <Michael_Schaten> I am sorry, but I need to leave. Thanks to everyone for this great and informative symposium. See you next time!
17:51:05 <Patrick> Thank you very much everyone for your answers.
17:54:09 <Nicoleta_> Thank you all for attending and input / answers
17:55:14 <Ginny_Redish> Thank you to all the organizers.
17:55:27 <sharper> Thanks Everyone! Really Nice Session!
17:55:32 <Leealaura_Leskela> Thank you for this interesting session!
17:55:36 <Lisa_Caid> Thank you!
17:55:37 <Chris> Thanks to everybody and see you next time!
17:55:39 <Sami_Alli> Thank you for you all, bye!
17:56:03 <timo_overmark> Thank you!
17:56:16 <shawn> Please send additional short contributions, questions, and comments to the publicly-archived mailing list RDWG Comments, with subject starting "[E2R Symposium]" <public-wai-rd-comments@w3.org>
17:56:22 <apetz> apetz has joined #e2r
17:56:29 <kmatausc_> thx to Shawn
17:56:33 <Annika_Nietzio> Thanks to the organisers and all participants.
17:57:16 <clayton_lewis> thanks to the organizers!
17:57:32 <jennyd> thanks to everyone, a really interesting symposium!
17:58:26 <Jana_Becker> Thanks to the organizers!
17:58:51 <Jana_Becker> Jana_Becker has left #e2r
17:58:55 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
17:59:03 <shadi> rrsagent, make minutes
17:59:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/03-e2r-minutes.html shadi
17:59:05 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
17:59:32 <Carol_Ido> Carol_Ido has left #e2r
18:00:39 <hoehl> hoehl has left #e2r
18:01:55 <MatsL> Thanks to all
18:25:24 <fsasaki> fsasaki has left #e2r