14:59:14 RRSAgent has joined #ldp 14:59:14 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-ldp-irc 14:59:16 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:59:16 Zakim has joined #ldp 14:59:18 Zakim, this will be LDP 14:59:18 ok, trackbot, I see SW_LDP()10:00AM already started 14:59:19 Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference 14:59:19 Date: 26 November 2012 14:59:29 that's a good explanation for the silence! 14:59:41 :) 14:59:43 +??P2 14:59:48 +??P3 14:59:52 Zakim, ??P3 is me 14:59:54 +BartvanLeeuwen; got it 15:00:00 + +44.754.550.aaaa 15:00:09 +[IBM] 15:00:14 Ruben has joined #ldp 15:00:18 Zakim, [IBM] is me 15:00:18 SteveBattle has joined #ldp 15:00:18 +SteveS; got it 15:00:20 +Ruben 15:00:22 +Arnaud 15:00:26 +??P5 15:00:33 Zakim, ??P5 is me 15:00:33 +deiu; got it 15:00:40 Zakim, mute me please 15:00:40 deiu should now be muted 15:00:48 zakim, mute me 15:00:48 Ruben should now be muted 15:01:00 AshokMalhotra has joined #LDP 15:01:05 zakim, who is on the call 15:01:05 I don't understand 'who is on the call', SteveBattle 15:01:18 zakim, who is on the phone 15:01:18 I don't understand 'who is on the phone', SteveBattle 15:01:26 krp has joined #ldp 15:01:34 Steve, needs a ? at the end 15:01:44 ta 15:01:51 zakim, who is there? 15:01:51 I don't understand your question, Arnaud. 15:01:52 +OpenLink_Software 15:01:56 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:01:56 On the phone I see dret, ??P2, BartvanLeeuwen, +44.754.550.aaaa, SteveS, Ruben (muted), Arnaud, deiu (muted), OpenLink_Software 15:02:06 Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 15:02:06 +MacTed; got it 15:02:07 Zakim, mute me 15:02:07 MacTed should now be muted 15:02:11 +Ashok_Malhotra 15:02:12 zakim, aaaa is me 15:02:12 +SteveBattle; got it 15:02:19 +EricP 15:02:29 nmihindu has joined #ldp 15:03:46 Zakim, unmute 15:03:46 I don't understand 'unmute', MacTed 15:03:48 +Yves 15:03:48 Zakim, unmute me 15:03:49 MacTed should no longer be muted 15:04:07 Zakim, mute me 15:04:08 MacTed should now be muted 15:04:47 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:04:47 On the phone I see dret, ??P2, BartvanLeeuwen, SteveBattle, SteveS, Ruben (muted), Arnaud, deiu (muted), MacTed (muted), Ashok_Malhotra, EricP, Yves 15:04:51 topic: Minutes from last week 15:04:54 -??P2 15:05:03 have read and look good 15:05:16 I have read them 15:05:18 they look good! 15:05:34 arnaud: minutes approved 15:05:48 +??P24 15:06:00 topic: Actions and Issues 15:06:25 Zakim, ??P24 is me 15:06:25 +nmihindu; got it 15:06:33 Kalpa has joined #ldp 15:06:59 scribenick: ericP 15:07:06 Zakim, who's noisy? 15:07:16 MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Arnaud (4%), Ashok_Malhotra (5%), nmihindu (45%) 15:07:22 issue-40? 15:07:22 ISSUE-40 -- creating/deleting/changing non RDF resources -- raised 15:07:22 http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/40 15:07:39 Arnaud: issue is against the UC&R (not the spec) 15:07:50 Zakim, mute me 15:07:50 nmihindu should now be muted 15:07:51 ... but we have a similar story so not sure what's new 15:07:52 +??P26 15:07:54 Zakim, unmute me 15:07:54 MacTed should no longer be muted 15:08:03 Zakim, ??P26 is me 15:08:03 +oberger; got it 15:08:08 Zakim, mute me 15:08:08 oberger should now be muted 15:08:14 SteveBattle: agreed. not sure what to do about it 15:08:25 +1 to wait for henry 15:08:36 +??P27 15:08:41 Zakim, mute me 15:08:41 MacTed should now be muted 15:08:45 ... we don't have a story about sharing binary resources 15:08:56 zakim, ??P27 is me 15:08:56 +krp; got it 15:08:57 Arnaud: a new issue-40 was raised about sharing binary resources 15:08:58 [ tabled 'till Henry is around ] 15:09:10 +Sandro 15:09:11 scribenick: SteveBattle 15:10:45 Arnaud: close issue-7 as pending review 15:11:01 svillata has joined #ldp 15:11:05 s/close/ / 15:11:36 q+ 15:11:43 Arnaud: Today is the deadline for suggesting test-suite / testing proposals 15:11:52 ack? 15:11:54 ack deiu 15:11:55 q? 15:12:04 Arnaud: Not much has been contributed so far 15:12:08 Zakim, mute me 15:12:08 deiu should now be muted 15:12:12 I'll write 15:12:33 My point is that we've not decided on the model 15:12:55 it's difficult to try and propose a test suite if we don't know what exactly to test for 15:12:59 (other than existing stuff from the spec) 15:13:18 ISSUE-37 seems to be holding up quite a number of things 15:13:19 Aranud: We need suggestions/ideas about frameworks for testing 15:13:31 bblfish has joined #ldp 15:13:52 Yeah, he's got about two tests working so far 15:13:59 We've been collaborating on that matter 15:14:07 hi 15:14:08 (Alexander) 15:14:41 Arnaud: We do have >1 proposal. Maybe we have enough to be getting on with? 15:14:46 q+ 15:15:17 ack steveb 15:15:20 We have until end of play today to make additional suggestions 15:15:35 q+ 15:15:45 +??P30 15:15:46 ack steveb 15:16:01 achille_z has joined #ldp 15:16:08 Zakim, ??P30 is me 15:16:08 +svillata; got it 15:16:27 thanks deiu 15:16:43 topic: Test Suite and Validation (retrospectively) 15:17:19 Arnaud: You have until end of today to contribute ideas. 15:17:28 topic: Use Cases and Requirements 15:17:49 SteveBattle: SteveS and I had an editorial meeting last week 15:18:01 ... added a timetable at the beginning 15:18:10 ... we asked folks last week to review the user stories 15:18:27 AndyS has joined #ldp 15:18:49 ... we moved out the RESTful Interactions "user story" as it was more architectural 15:19:06 ... the section on sharing binary resources and metadata needs the most work 15:19:24 ... will send a request from that use case's advocate after the call 15:19:42 ... we asked folks to directly edit user stories. saw some edits 15:20:03 ... we still need eyes on these user stories and editorial work to get them to look similar 15:20:09 ... otherwise they get deleted 15:20:30 ... hoping to get to FPWD this year 15:20:38 q+ has that changed now? We no longer need to issue a ticket to change user stories? 15:20:51 SteveS: waiting for answer on publishing moritorium for end of year 15:21:06 sandro: off the top of my head, i think it's the last two weeks 15:21:19 SteveBattle: ericP owes editorial text 15:21:21 ericP: roger that 15:22:01 Arnaud: so we're waiting from some editorial work from advocates, hoping for review in one week 15:22:25 ... seems optimistic that we can get reviews and responses by the 17th 15:22:43 I'll take the wheel 15:22:52 topic: LDP Specification 15:23:11 q+ to has dealing with user stories changed now? We no longer need to issue a ticket to change user stories? We just edit the wiki? 15:23:24 steveS: Working to track editorial suggestions by David Wood 15:23:31 topic: Issues 15:23:56 issue-37 15:23:57 issue-37? 15:23:57 ISSUE-37 -- What is the LDP data model and the LDP interaction model? -- open 15:23:57 http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/37 15:24:07 q? 15:24:16 Talking about ISSUE-37 15:24:45 my question was: has dealing with user stories changed now? We no longer need to issue a ticket to change user stories? We just edit the wiki? 15:25:06 bblfish: no, for new stories you still need to submit issues, otherwise coordinate with editors 15:25:13 ok 15:25:19 ack bblfish 15:25:19 bblfish, you wanted to has dealing with user stories changed now? We no longer need to issue a ticket to change user stories? We just edit the wiki? 15:25:20 We need the editors to suggest a way forward on this 15:25:21 thanks 15:26:02 SteveS: Will take this as an action 15:26:12 +??P34 15:26:21 Zakim, ??P34 is me 15:26:21 +BartvanLeeuwen; got it 15:27:34 bblfish:We need more discussion about the model. My plan is to take this outline and consolidate what we have on the wiki. 15:28:10 -BartvanLeeuwen.a 15:28:10 bblfish: Shall I create a wiki page? 15:28:25 +??P34 15:28:28 s/bblfish/dret/ 15:28:28 Zakim, ??P34 is me 15:28:28 +BartvanLeeuwen; got it 15:28:33 ah? 15:28:42 Henry, please create the wiki page 15:29:11 bblfish: OK, I'll do that, and when it is stable we'll discuss how to move that into the spec. 15:29:12 q? 15:29:22 s/bblfish/dret/ 15:29:40 SteveBattle: I think you mean dret, not me :-) 15:30:02 Sorry - didn't recognise the voice :( 15:30:25 s/Henry,/dret,/ 15:30:31 SteveBattle: I am on train with low connectivity 15:31:14 Arnaud: Issue-31: Does anybody disagree that we need a conformance section? 15:31:28 Issue-31? 15:31:28 ISSUE-31 -- Proper Conformance section for LDP spec -- open 15:31:28 http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/31 15:31:55 who is the speaker - is that fret? 15:32:04 s/fret/dret/ 15:32:41 sandro: The spec adds additional things like container deletion etc. 15:33:22 Arnaud: It makes sense to have a compliance section 15:33:24 zakim, who is talking? 15:33:36 bblfish, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: dret (18%), Arnaud (46%) 15:33:55 Arnaud: I'm happy to close issue-31 and let editors add a conformance section. 15:34:28 SteveS: I accept the action. 15:34:45 RESOLVED: close issue-31: agreed 15:34:50 Arnaud: closing issue-31 15:35:06 ACTION: steves, add a conformance section to LDP spec 15:35:06 Sorry, couldn't find steves,. You can review and register nicknames at . 15:35:14 sorry: yes, SteveBattle, that was me. 15:36:25 ACTION: steves, add a conformance section to LDP spec 15:36:25 Sorry, couldn't find steves,. You can review and register nicknames at . 15:36:59 +bblfish 15:37:33 -BartvanLeeuwen.a 15:38:07 topic: ISSUE-29 15:38:23 Issue-29? 15:38:23 ISSUE-29 -- Relative URIs are crucial -- open 15:38:23 http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/29 15:39:01 Arnaud: This concerns the F2F where TBL implored us to support relative URIs in GETas well as PUT/POST 15:39:34 Arnaud: What does this mean for the spec? 15:39:39 q+ to promote examples 15:39:52 q+ to just thought of a really good use case for relative URIs: you could have a site that is both available on port 80, and also put it behind Tor in one quick click without having to rework everything 15:40:06 Sandro: I don't think this is a should/must for the spec. It's best practice. 15:40:13 q+ 15:40:37 ack me 15:40:37 ericP, you wanted to promote examples 15:40:39 ack ericp 15:40:46 ericP: moot 15:40:52 q- 15:41:04 ericP: was going to say what sandro said 15:41:13 ack steveb 15:41:16 SteveBattle: we could discuss best practice in the Primer 15:41:54 +1 to Arnaud 15:41:56 deiu "best practices" page I believe is started at http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Deployment_Guide 15:42:00 ... for instance, when describing GET requests, we could describe best practice 15:42:02 I think relative URIs need to go into a section of the main spec when discussing POST for example 15:42:03 Sandro: A throw-away couple of words could convey the idea 15:42:42 -Ruben 15:42:44 Ruben has left #ldp 15:42:47 Sandro: A well-written primer can convey this informally. 15:42:48 SteveS, cheers (though that page is pretty useless at this point) 15:43:00 q? 15:43:08 deiu got to start somewhere 15:43:37 Arnaud: I haven't heard anyone say we need to change the spec. 15:43:39 primer or best practices, but spec would probably be the wrong place 15:43:43 SteveS, I plan to do that, together with Alexandre (already started something internally) 15:43:51 q+ 15:44:13 SteveS: This is currently listed in the deployment spec. 15:44:16 See deployment guide http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Deployment_Guide 15:44:17 ack steveb 15:44:19 SteveS: it's already in the deployment guide which cygri started 15:44:38 SteveBattle: i confused about the Deployment Guide vs. the Primer 15:44:47 q+ to I think that examples in the spec should contain relative URIs when possible 15:44:50 Arnaud: The primer is an introduction to the technology 15:45:01 The document itself says its purpose is: "This page collects various informative material, including best practices, design patterns and anti-patterns, related to LDP. It may or may not become a formal deliverable of the Working Group." 15:45:05 The deployment guide accompanies the spec for experts. 15:45:10 Arnaud: as i understand it, the Primer is for non-experts. the Deployment Guide is meant to complement the spec for experts 15:46:04 q? 15:46:12 ack bblfish 15:46:12 bblfish, you wanted to I think that examples in the spec should contain relative URIs when possible 15:46:17 q+ 15:46:22 I think that examples in the spec should contain relative URIs when possible 15:46:50 ack ashok 15:47:09 Ashok: I agree, examples in the spec should show this. 15:47:16 -bblfish 15:47:48 SteveS: Yes we have examples that could use relative URIs. 15:48:13 +??P8 15:48:20 Zakim, ??P8 is me 15:48:20 +BartvanLeeuwen; got it 15:48:35 ACTION: sspeiche, check the LDP spec for examples in which relative URLs might be used 15:48:35 Sorry, couldn't find sspeiche,. You can review and register nicknames at . 15:48:50 ACTION: steves, check the LDP spec for examples in which relative URLs might be used 15:48:50 Sorry, couldn't find steves,. You can review and register nicknames at . 15:49:16 Arnaud: Proposing that we close issue-29 15:49:37 +1 15:49:43 +1 15:49:45 +1 15:49:45 +1 15:49:45 +1 15:49:50 +1 15:49:56 +1 15:50:03 +1 15:50:06 regrets 15:50:16 +1 15:50:31 +1 15:50:45 +bblfish 15:50:58 RESOLVED: Close issue-29: it's a best practice covered in the deployment guide and examples in the LDP spec 15:51:46 MacTed has joined #ldp 15:52:26 yes patch is important :-) 15:52:34 -bblfish 15:52:37 Arnaud: We have 3 issues relating to PATCH. 12, 17, 27 15:53:19 SteveS: I can gather the information together. There was some work done with tabulator and the R/W web. 15:53:22 -BartvanLeeuwen.a 15:54:02 +bblfish 15:54:03 SteveS: The R/W web and tabulator use some subset of SPARQL update. 15:54:07 q? 15:55:04 issue-2? 15:55:04 ISSUE-2 -- Do BPR versions get managed in a systematic, discoverable way? -- open 15:55:04 http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/2 15:55:07 issue-3? 15:55:07 ISSUE-3 -- Do BPC versions get managed in a systematic, discoverable way? -- open 15:55:07 http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/3 15:55:08 Arnaud: Do we want to do versioning? Issues 2 and 3 15:55:08 versioning is a modelling issue I think. I wrote a versioning model once 15:55:46 Arnaud: Maybe we shouldn't discuss this now, AndyS is the owner. 15:55:55 -bblfish 15:55:57 i read that as versioning LDP content, not the protocol 15:56:24 and i recommend to stay away from this for LDP core; it's a very complex issue. 15:56:31 Arnaud: Is versioning handled by LDP or the application?\ 15:56:39 WebDAV 15:56:40 WebDAV... 15:56:54 Zakim, unmute me 15:56:54 MacTed should no longer be muted 15:57:05 ericP: Are there precedents? 15:57:34 Zakim, mute me 15:57:34 MacTed should now be muted 15:57:57 Do we want to do it at all? It can get really ugly. 15:58:02 also memento for time-based versioning http://www.mementoweb.org/guide/rfc/ID/ (but agree, better to decide whether we need to do this) 15:58:09 unsure of the speaker 15:58:22 speaker is dret 15:58:45 can soemone make a proposal? 15:58:56 q? 15:59:29 Arnaud: I'm sensing that the group isn't in favour of handling versioning in the spec. 15:59:30 it's a good feature, but not MMF. 15:59:39 bblfish has joined #ldp 15:59:53 +1 16:00:09 AndyS, dret proposed that we not handle versioning unless there's a strong proponent. there was general support for this position. 16:00:32 Arnaud: move issue 2/3 to pending review 16:01:20 Arnaud: Remember the best way to make progress is to make a proposal. 16:01:26 -Ashok_Malhotra 16:01:38 see minutes for last meeting. 16:02:07 thanks Arnaud, thanks SteveBattle, thanks everybody! 16:02:13 -oberger 16:02:14 bye 16:02:14 -SteveS 16:02:19 -Sandro 16:02:20 -Yves 16:02:20 -MacTed 16:02:21 -svillata 16:02:21 -dret 16:02:21 -deiu 16:02:21 -Arnaud 16:02:22 -EricP 16:02:25 -krp 16:02:29 SteveBattle has left #ldp 16:02:50 -SteveBattle 16:04:00 bblfish has joined #ldp 16:04:41 I must have missed the end 16:06:23 have the meeting minutes been published? 16:06:33 Kalpa has left #ldp 16:07:05 zakim, publsh minutes 16:07:05 I don't understand 'publsh minutes', bblfish 16:07:13 zakim, publish minutes 16:07:13 I don't understand 'publish minutes', bblfish 16:08:16 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:08:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-ldp-minutes.html deiu 16:08:18 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:08:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-ldp-minutes.html bblfish 16:08:41 RRSAgent, please publish minutes 16:08:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-ldp-minutes.html deiu 16:08:59 ah I think they are still protected 16:16:20 RRSAgent, set logs public 16:16:38 Zakim, who's here? 16:16:38 On the phone I see BartvanLeeuwen, nmihindu (muted) 16:16:39 On IRC I see bblfish, MacTed, achille_z, Zakim, RRSAgent, dret, SteveS, deiu, webr3, Arnaud, jmvanel, trackbot, Yves, sandro, ericP 16:17:12 Zakim, drop BartvanLeeuwen 16:17:12 BartvanLeeuwen is being disconnected 16:17:14 -BartvanLeeuwen 16:17:16 Zakim, drop nmihindu 16:17:17 nmihindu is being disconnected 16:17:18 SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended 16:17:18 Attendees were dret, BartvanLeeuwen, +44.754.550.aaaa, SteveS, Ruben, Arnaud, deiu, MacTed, Ashok_Malhotra, SteveBattle, EricP, Yves, nmihindu, oberger, krp, Sandro, svillata, 16:17:18 ... bblfish 16:17:23 trackbot, end meeting 16:17:23 Zakim, list attendees 16:17:23 sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is 16:17:31 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:17:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-ldp-minutes.html trackbot 16:17:32 RRSAgent, bye 16:17:32 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-ldp-actions.rdf : 16:17:32 ACTION: steves, add a conformance section to LDP spec [1] 16:17:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-ldp-irc#T15-35-06 16:17:32 ACTION: steves, add a conformance section to LDP spec [2] 16:17:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-ldp-irc#T15-36-25 16:17:32 ACTION: sspeiche, check the LDP spec for examples in which relative URLs might be used [3] 16:17:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-ldp-irc#T15-48-35 16:17:32 ACTION: steves, check the LDP spec for examples in which relative URLs might be used [4] 16:17:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-ldp-irc#T15-48-50