15:03:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webid
15:03:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/23-webid-irc
15:03:05 <bblfish> zakim, start meeting
15:03:05 <Zakim> I don't understand 'start meeting', bblfish
15:04:20 <bblfish> http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html
15:04:28 <scor> zakim, list conferences
15:04:28 <Zakim> I see INC_WEBID(WEBID)10:00AM, Team_(privacy)14:00Z active
15:04:31 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are HTML_CG()10:00AM, WAI_EOWG()8:30AM, Team_(tcdlegal)15:00Z, WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM
15:04:54 <scor> this conference will webid
15:04:54 <bblfish> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:54 <Zakim> sorry, bblfish, I don't know what conference this is
15:04:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, scor, Zakim, domel, bblfish, deiu, melvster, oberger, jmvanel, timbl, webr3, mischat, trueg, trackbot, magnetik, sandro, elf-pavlik, bergi
15:05:15 <bblfish> start meeting
15:05:19 <scor> sandro: here to help with Zakim?
15:05:26 <scor> what conference is this?
15:05:37 <deiu> Zakim, this INC_WEBID is Formal WebID Meeting
15:05:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this INC_WEBID is Formal WebID Meeting', deiu
15:05:41 <bblfish> http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc
15:05:51 <bblfish> zakim, start meeting
15:05:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'start meeting', bblfish
15:05:55 <bblfish> start meeting
15:06:56 <bblfish> trackbot, status
15:07:31 <scor> trackbot, start meeting
15:07:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:07:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WEBID
15:07:35 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see INC_WEBID(WEBID)10:00AM already started
15:07:36 <trackbot> Meeting: WebID Community Group Teleconference
15:07:36 <trackbot> Date: 23 November 2012
15:07:37 <deiu> trackbot, start telecon
15:07:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:07:41 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WEBID
15:07:41 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see INC_WEBID(WEBID)10:00AM already started
15:07:42 <trackbot> Meeting: WebID Community Group Teleconference
15:07:42 <trackbot> Date: 23 November 2012
15:08:03 <bblfish> How many people are here for RWW?
15:08:20 <bblfish> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webid/2012Nov/0203.html
15:08:38 <domel> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:08:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0, bblfish, scor, ??P3, [IPcaller]
15:08:47 <deiu> Zakim, ??P0 is me
15:08:47 <Zakim> +deiu; got it
15:09:00 <deiu> scribe: Andrei Sambra
15:09:04 <deiu> scribenick: deiu
15:09:12 <domel> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:09:12 <Zakim> +domel; got it
15:09:15 <deiu> chair: bblfish
15:09:27 <bergi> Zakim, ??P3 is me
15:09:27 <Zakim> +bergi; got it
15:10:14 <bergi> i would like to talk about access control
15:10:33 <bblfish> Topic: Access Control
15:10:39 <Zakim> +??P6
15:10:44 <oberger> oberger has left #webid
15:10:51 <melvster> zakim, ??P6 is me
15:10:51 <Zakim> +melvster; got it
15:10:57 <melvster> zakim, mute me
15:10:57 <Zakim> melvster should now be muted
15:11:42 <bblfish> http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl
15:11:47 <deiu> bergi: can we talk about what was discussed at TPAC about ACL?
15:12:02 <deiu> bergi: triple access control should be discussed
15:12:21 <domel> I totally agree with bergi
15:12:26 <deiu> ... defining triples for grouping resources and defining filters for RDF data
15:12:37 <bblfish> The ldp group are putting togfether use cases http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/AccessControl
15:12:48 <scor__> scor__ has joined #webid
15:13:00 <deiu> bblfish: bergi wants access control on triples
15:13:11 <deiu> bergi: not really, for resources in general
15:13:25 <deiu> ... universal access control
15:13:43 <bergi> http://www.w3.org/community/rww/wiki/Scope
15:14:18 <deiu> ... AC is about resources/triples
15:14:29 <deiu> bblfish: the basic AC is for resources
15:14:58 <deiu> ... for items which have URIs
15:15:27 <deiu> Please use the queue system when you want to talk: q+ / q-
15:15:53 <deiu> ... "who can access a resource? / read / write"
15:15:54 <domel> zakim, q+
15:15:54 <Zakim> I see domel on the speaker queue
15:16:06 <deiu> ... it's orthogonal to the filtering of resources
15:16:48 <deiu> bergi: yes, that's the first topic, but I also want access control for linked data, i.e. protecting even the links to resources
15:17:15 <deiu> q?
15:17:28 <deiu> bblfish: is there something missing in WAC now?
15:17:34 <domel> zakim, q-
15:17:34 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:17:54 <deiu> q+
15:18:19 <deiu> bblfish: you can create a group in WAC
15:18:42 <PhilA2> PhilA2 has joined #webID
15:18:47 <domel> bblfish: WAC do not have roles, my and bergi proposal do this
15:19:04 <PhilA2> zakim, code?
15:19:04 <Zakim> the conference code is 93243 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), PhilA2
15:19:15 <bblfish> [acl:accessTo <classofresources>; acl:mode acl:Read; acl:agentClass foaf:Agent].
15:19:16 <deiu> ... in WAC, there in an Agent class, and an AccessTo class
15:19:26 <Zakim> +??P7
15:19:31 <PhilA2> zakim, ??p7 is me
15:19:31 <Zakim> +PhilA2; got it
15:19:34 <deiu> s/Agent class/AgentClass
15:19:43 <bblfish> <http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/acl#>
15:19:49 <deiu> s/AccessTo class/accessTo
15:19:51 <bblfish> q?
15:20:17 <domel> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-based_access_control
15:20:21 <deiu> domel: bergi and I are working on a new proposal which is a RBAC ontology, valid for the above link
15:20:52 <bblfish> data.fm
15:21:15 <deiu> bblfish: because we have WAC from W3C, we should see how well it fits with your proposal
15:21:54 <deiu> ... we need use cases at this point, to identify where WAC or RBAC fits better
15:22:09 <deiu> ... or maybe improve both vocabularies
15:22:15 <bblfish> q?
15:22:45 <bergi> q+
15:22:59 <deiu> ... a role is another set of agents (a group basically)
15:23:07 <deiu> q-
15:23:19 <bblfish> q?
15:23:44 <deiu> bergi: it's not just RBAC which is missing from WAC; my focus is filtering at the triple level
15:23:45 <bblfish> zakim, who is on the queue?
15:23:45 <Zakim> I see bergi on the speaker queue
15:23:56 <bblfish> zakim, who is on the phone ?
15:23:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see deiu, bblfish, scor, bergi, domel, melvster (muted), PhilA2
15:23:58 <domel> You can find many items that are not in the WAC, i.e. temporal values
15:24:15 <deiu> Zakim, mute me please
15:24:15 <Zakim> deiu should now be muted
15:25:06 <domel> zakim, q+
15:25:06 <Zakim> I see bergi, domel on the speaker queue
15:25:09 <deiu> bblfish: you can create a class with all the resources that speak about a person, and then use it for access control
15:25:56 <deiu> bergi: if you already have existing data, it would be nice to reuse this data for AC (?)
15:26:19 <bblfish> accessToClass
15:26:22 <deiu> bblfish: you can probably use OWL DL for that
15:26:47 <domel> zakim, q+\?
15:26:47 <Zakim> I see bergi, domel, \? on the speaker queue
15:27:04 <domel> zakim, q-\?
15:27:04 <Zakim> I see bergi, domel on the speaker queue
15:27:08 <deiu> bergi: I have an example that I will send to the mailing list
15:27:15 <bblfish> q?
15:27:25 <deiu> ack bergi
15:27:51 <Zakim> -bblfish
15:28:06 <deiu> q
15:28:08 <deiu> q?
15:28:38 <bblfish_> bblfish_ has joined #webid
15:28:46 <Zakim> +bblfish
15:28:57 <deiu> welcome back bblfish
15:29:15 <deiu> Bergi, you were saying?
15:29:48 <bblfish_> q?
15:30:00 <bblfish_> q?
15:30:05 <deiu> bergi: for AC, you can start simple with AC for resources, then use a "follow your nose" system to apply it to the triple level
15:30:19 <deiu> bblfish, domel is on the queue
15:30:27 <domel> zakim, q-
15:30:27 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:31:16 <scor> zakim, who is speaking?
15:31:29 <PhilA2> .me this is me Phil Archer
15:31:29 <Zakim> scor, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:31:34 <deiu> PhilA2: the POWDER project is used a data compression mechanism for ongoing work
15:31:53 <deiu> ... POWDER allows us to make statements about groups and resources
15:32:09 <deiu> ... it allows to group URIs together
15:32:17 <bblfish_> rdf:aboutEach?
15:32:28 <bblfish> q>
15:32:29 <bblfish> q?
15:33:31 <PhilA2> SemaGrow is the project using POWDER
15:34:09 <PhilA2> http://www.w3.org/TR/powder-formal/#regexSemantics
15:34:20 <deiu> bblfish: there is a group working on semantics for agricultural data
15:34:31 <deiu> ... they use POWDER
15:35:19 <deiu> PhilA2: I am writing a paper on how people design URIs for linked data; people spend a lot of time working on URIs
15:35:50 <deiu> ... humans can look at a URI and tell that it is _about_ something: a person, a postal address, etc.
15:36:24 <deiu> bblfish: this can be very useful for access control
15:37:06 <deiu> ... it makes a lot of sense for AC in LD profile space
15:37:45 <deiu> ... in LDP, you need to do a GET on a resource to obtain the AC rules for it
15:38:26 <deiu> PhilA2: we designed it so that you can define any group, no matter how complex it is
15:38:59 <deiu> ... you can use inclusion/exclusion for the rules
15:39:33 <deiu> bblfish: why is it XML based?
15:40:10 <PhilA2> domel: http://users.iit.demokritos.gr/~konstant/dload/Pubs/ijmso.pdf
15:40:15 <bblfish> q?
15:41:52 <bblfish> q?
15:42:06 <Zakim> -PhilA2
15:42:21 <bblfish> Topic: #based WebID Def
15:42:28 <deiu> q+
15:42:42 <deiu> ack deiu
15:42:47 <bblfish> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:42:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see deiu, scor, bergi, domel, melvster (muted), bblfish
15:43:00 <scor> deiu: do we have any conclusion about ACL?
15:43:06 <scor> about what we discussed in the before
15:43:13 <scor> ... we need a resolution
15:43:53 <deiu> PROPOSAL: how many people present here are interested in working on AC?
15:44:14 <bblfish> +1
15:44:19 <domel> +1
15:44:19 <melvster> s/AC/ACL
15:44:20 <deiu> +1
15:44:26 <bergi> +1
15:44:59 <betehess> betehess has joined #webid
15:45:02 <bblfish> Q: What should the meeting times be?
15:45:40 <bblfish> Topic: WebID Hash based
15:45:51 <deiu> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/webid/wiki/WebID_Definition/hash
15:46:21 <scor> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:46:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see deiu, scor, bergi, domel, melvster (muted), bblfish
15:46:58 <deiu> Zakim, mute me please
15:46:58 <Zakim> deiu should now be muted
15:47:32 <scor> bblfish: the wiki content has improved, better place to put the arguments than on the list
15:47:51 <scor> bblfish: Nathan did a good job summarizing the situation
15:48:03 <scor> bblfish: pity Kingsley isn't here
15:48:09 <PhilA2> PhilA2 has left #webid
15:48:55 <scor> bblfish: Kingsley's arguments are: you can't look inside a URI. his arguments don't convince me that much
15:48:59 <deiu> Very interesting to read at this point: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/webid/wiki/WebID_Definition/Requirements
15:49:06 <scor> ... for one POWDER exists and you can semantics on it
15:49:10 <deiu> q+
15:49:53 <bblfish> Jurgen: By defining a WebID to be a hash-based we put a lot of semantics into a single character where the most important parts are that an entity is described in a standardized way. Two identical => descriptions <= of a real world entity are treated differently if webid.toString().indexOf("#") is -1 or > 0. That what's interesting for the verifier is not the uri-string, but the description of an entity. In other words a verifier must judge the
15:49:53 <bblfish> graph not (only) by the triples it contains, but also by a certain character in the subject's uri.
15:50:16 <scor> ... Juergen is worried that we're looking inside the URI (same as Kingsley's point)
15:50:21 <scor> ... the URI should be opaque
15:50:55 <scor> ... we're trying to name a type of URI for a purpose. we're not saying everything on the Web should be a WebID
15:51:03 <bblfish> Exercise POWDER class of WebIDs for fun
15:51:12 <scor> ... we could create a POWDER class for WebIDs
15:51:45 <scor> ... the reason we are looking at these classes is to simplify the spec
15:51:56 <scor> ... and to make it work well with RWW systems
15:51:57 <deiu> q?
15:52:25 <scor> ... HTTP is essential for RWW and for verification mechanism. we rely on the HTTP dereferencing for the verification
15:52:36 <scor> ... URIs are opaque at the logical layer.
15:52:42 <bblfish> q?
15:52:46 <deiu> ack deiu
15:52:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:53:00 <scor> deiu: want to point to the link earlier re requirements
15:53:12 <webr3> Zakim, I am +[IPcaller]
15:53:12 <Zakim> sorry, webr3, I do not see a party named '+[IPcaller]'
15:53:15 <webr3> Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
15:53:15 <Zakim> ok, webr3, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
15:53:18 <scor> deiu: first we need to identify our requirements. otherwise we'll introduce more questions
15:53:30 <scor> ... newcomers will make their own use cases
15:53:45 <scor> ... so we know where the boundaries and avoid us to go outside these boundaries
15:53:56 <webr3> Zakim, mute me
15:53:56 <Zakim> [IPcaller] should now be muted
15:54:10 <deiu> This is the page: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/webid/wiki/WebID_Definition/Requirements
15:54:34 <bblfish> Larry Massinter
15:55:01 <scor> bblfish: Larry from TAG said you cannot resolve ht14 at the level of the TAG. has to be driven by requirements
15:55:12 <webr3> "if I working group wishes to promote one side or another, let them. There is no reason to imagine the TAG would make more progress in the next 10 years than it has in the last, on this (so-called) issue." ~ Larry Masinter
15:55:25 <bblfish> q?
15:55:26 <scor> ... if we don't have requirements, we have no way of knowing when we're finished with our work
15:55:45 <deiu> Zakim, please mute me
15:55:45 <Zakim> deiu should now be muted
15:56:08 <bblfish> q?
15:56:59 <scor> bblfish: I want to do a proposal (we'll do it often)
15:57:08 <bblfish> PROPOSAL: http/https is a MUST ( whether hash is or not )
15:57:19 <webr3> +1
15:57:19 <scor> +1
15:57:20 <deiu> +1
15:57:20 <bblfish> +1
15:57:22 <bergi> +1
15:57:27 <domel> +1
15:57:35 <melvster> +1
15:58:00 <scor> RESOLVED: http/https is a MUST ( whether hash is or not )
15:58:40 <scor> bblfish: people have a URL, but don't know where to put the data yet
15:59:17 <bblfish> 303 would work with hash urls too
15:59:18 <melvster> i have to drop off the cal now, too, thanks all
15:59:20 <webr3> hr14 wasn't about #hash, it was about slash URIs only, and finding a way to make them work for those who had already minted - #hash is default, 303 is a work around that lets http say "well this isn't an http resource, this other document might tell you what it is
15:59:47 <deiu> Please contribute to http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/webid/wiki/WebID_Definition/hash
16:00:03 <Zakim> -melvster
16:00:07 <bblfish> scor: said "Given the current spec, hash URIs come with a restriction on basic 303 redirects, that means that when people change the location of their WebID profile (be it hash or hashless), they cannot rely on redirect to keep their existing WebID, and will have to regenerate a certificate for all their browsers and all their devices."
16:00:15 <Zakim> -deiu
16:01:27 <domel> \me has to go now, bye
16:01:49 <Zakim> -domel
16:02:11 <bblfish> question: we have to ask but my view is that redirects are still alowed with the hash
16:03:08 <bblfish> but my view is that it does
16:05:27 <bblfish> q?
16:06:19 <webr3> there is a more important point here, that the TAG may give other guidance which allows slash URIs to be deref'd without a 303
16:06:44 <webr3> can I make a proposal, for somebody to dictate to the group (pre issue)
16:07:03 <scor> webr3: yes, that's in line with the email I sent them
16:07:53 <scor> it'd be good if some group like TAG can give some guidance
16:08:38 <webr3> PROPOSE: we write the WebID 1.0 specification as if it says MUST use a http(s) #fragment URI, then remove the "MUST be a #fragment" from the normative definition, so that slash/303's are not excluded, but are not catered for specifically.
16:09:17 <scor> webr3: when is "then"
16:09:26 <scor> pre LC/REC or post REC?
16:09:58 <bblfish> https://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/webid/track/issues/70
16:10:00 <bblfish> q?
16:10:38 <webr3> pre LC, infact never put it in, just assume it's always a #frag URI thoughout the spec - afaict the onyl issues anybody has about 303, is having them (a) excluded, or (b) catered for in the spec making it more complex
16:10:53 <scor> webr3: well, the examples are all #frag
16:11:02 <scor> never does it say or mention to use 303s
16:11:58 <webr3> it doesn't have to make the spec longer
16:12:05 <webr3> .. just don't exclude them
16:12:09 <scor> webr3: my proposal for not mandating hash URIs is there: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/WebID/raw-file/generic-http-uri-definition/spec/identity-respec.html
16:12:21 <webr3> write spec for frags, ignore 303 exists, don't mention psoitive or negative
16:13:11 <scor> the proposal spec above has a note discouraging 303s, it's the only mention of 303s
16:13:16 <webr3> scor: I read your proposal, found it a bit more complex
16:13:41 <scor> webr3: ok, would love to get your more detailed feedback, on what part is more complex
16:13:52 <webr3> scor: will do
16:13:57 <webr3> Alexandre and Kingsley will never agree
16:14:53 <webr3> we need compromise here, so cater for both, focus on #frag, ignore 303 - should I don't mind, it means nothing in this context for consumers, it means a lot for publishers
16:15:03 <bblfish> I am happy with SHOULD, version of 2
16:15:54 <bblfish> scor__: can live with should
16:16:52 <webr3> does anybody -1 "SHOULD be a #hash URI"?
16:18:22 <bblfish> nobody seems to be against version 2 of http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/webid/wiki/WebID_Definition/hash#2._MUST_be_HTTP_uri_and_SHOULD_be_an_HTTP.28s.29_hash_.28.23.29_URI
16:19:44 <webr3> kingsley again on ML, and I'm not keen (re SHOULD)
16:19:51 <webr3> *kingsley against on ML, and I'm not keen (re SHOULD)
16:22:25 <bblfish> Hurgen said by skype: please take my -1 on one or the other sort of uri (hash or non-hash) as granted :)
16:22:26 <bblfish> please take my +1 on the "SHOULD be http..." question (as i said, i know of use cases, where i don't dereference the webID but get the graph via sparql)
16:22:26 <bblfish> please take my +0.5 on "MUST be http" (i can live with that)
16:23:00 <bblfish> But that was before I talked to him
16:23:08 <bblfish> so I don't know where he stands now
16:23:19 <scor> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:23:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see scor, bergi, bblfish, [IPcaller] (muted)
16:24:01 <bblfish> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/webid/wiki/WebID_Definition/Requirements
16:25:54 <webr3> everybody +1s a MUST be an HTTP(S) URI - some -1 "MUST be a #frag", so consensus is "MUST be an HTTP(S) URI", it may also be "SHOULD be a #frag".. need to ask Kinglsey and Alexandre
16:26:04 <bblfish> it looks like SHOUOD fits all of the Alexandre's requirements
16:28:50 <bblfish> :-)
16:28:58 <webr3> lol no..
16:29:30 <webr3> Kingsley didn't like SHOULD be a 303, as it seemed to undermine perfectly valid 303 URIs as being "lesser" (and likewise products which create them)
16:29:41 <webr3> SHOULD be a #frag even..
16:30:05 <webr3> typo /s/303#frag
16:31:02 <bblfish> I am sure openlink can create #urls too
16:31:21 <bblfish> and I I think it would be interesting to consider #urls that redirect with 303 :-)_
16:31:42 <scor> "you cannot make the difference between a WebID and a Web Profile without an HTTP GET "
16:32:02 <scor> from http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/webid/wiki/WebID_Definition/Requirements
16:32:33 <webr3> that's invalid..
16:32:37 <scor> "When you don't require a hash URI for a WebID : you cannot make the difference between a WebID and a Web Profile without an HTTP GET "
16:32:48 <scor> from Alexandre and Andrei
16:32:51 <webr3> document#frag can 301 to foo#frag, so you can't says <document> is the profile
16:32:55 <bblfish> I am not that conviced by that argument
16:33:01 <bblfish> I think that is Andrei
16:35:04 <webr3> claiming
16:35:16 <webr3> no. not at all
16:35:27 <webr3> yes true..
16:35:46 <webr3> given any <uri#foo> <uri> may 301, or 404, or..
16:36:27 <webr3> so <uri> can't mean "profile" you don't know until you GET it.. you don't know what any URI is until you have RDF about it
16:36:57 <webr3> so.. this is impossible -> "you cannot make the difference between a WebID and a Web Profile without an HTTP GET "
16:37:06 <scor> webr3: +1
16:38:26 <webr3> +1 to what bblfish just said, we want/need WebID spec to encourage more of what andrie has done
16:40:22 <webr3> +1 to 1 week
16:40:49 <bblfish> thanks
16:40:53 <bblfish> +1
16:41:01 <scor> trackbot, end meeting
16:41:01 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:41:01 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been bblfish, scor, deiu, domel, bergi, melvster, PhilA2, [IPcaller]
16:41:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:41:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/23-webid-minutes.html trackbot
16:41:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:41:10 <RRSAgent> I see no action items