IRC log of ua on 2012-11-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:55:03 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/15-ua-irc
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RRSAgent, make logs public
17:55:05 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
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ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
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Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:55:08 [trackbot]
Date: 15 November 2012
17:55:15 [JAllan]
rrsagent, set logs public
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char: jimAllan, kellyFord
18:01:06 [Greg]
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chair: JimAllan, KellyFord
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WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
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+Greg_Lowney
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regrets: Jan, Jeanne, Kelly (late)
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+Jim_Allan
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+Kim_Patch
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Agenda+ Finish off 2.8 Action-747
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Agenda+ Levels Discussion - start on 2.3.2
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+Markku
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zakim, code?
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the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sharper
18:10:17 [JAllan]
open item 1
18:11:20 [Zakim]
+??P11
18:11:32 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0035.html
18:11:36 [sharper]
zakim, ??P11 is sharper
18:11:36 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:11:49 [mhakkinen]
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18:12:53 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0035.html
18:13:56 [JAllan]
scribe: jallan
18:14:09 [JAllan]
mh; explains proposal
18:14:35 [JAllan]
2.8.1 Customize display of controls representing user interface commands,
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functions, and extensions: The user can customize which user agent
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commands, functions, and extensions are displayed within the user agent's
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user interface as follows: (AA)
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(a) Show: The user can choose to display any controls, which can include
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user installed extensions, available within the user agent user interface.
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It is acceptable to limit the total number of controls that are displayed
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onscreen.
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(b) Simplify: The user can simplify the default user interface by choosing
18:14:50 [JAllan]
to display only commands essential for basic operation (e.g. by hiding
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some control).
18:14:53 [JAllan]
(c) Reposition: The user can choose to reposition individual controls
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within containers (e.g. Toolbars or tool palettes), as well as reposition
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the containers themselves to facilitate physical access (e.g. To minimize
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hand travel on touch screens, or to facilitate preferred hand access on
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handheld mobile devices).
18:15:00 [JAllan]
(d) Assign Activation Keystrokes or Gestures: The user can choose to view,
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assign or change default keystrokes or gestures used to activate controls.
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(e) Reset: The user has the option to reset the containers and controls
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available to their original configuration.
18:16:02 [JAllan]
kp: good way to do it
18:16:30 [JAllan]
mh: Kim you mentioned handedness on mobile devices, but said it more elegantly
18:17:16 [JAllan]
ja: what about 2.8.2?
18:17:35 [JAllan]
mh: became part of 2.8.1 (item e)
18:18:44 [JAllan]
kp: unconference...humana trying for AAA, but some things they can't do, so are doing AAA -xyz
18:19:22 [JAllan]
... 2.8.1 facilitates the compliance
18:20:08 [JAllan]
gl: this doesn't answer what happens in status bars, palettes
18:20:45 [JAllan]
... a container at the bottom of a window that may have actionalble controls.
18:21:12 [JAllan]
gl: where does it say that the status bar should not be configurable.
18:21:25 [JAllan]
... I like the approach.
18:22:48 [JAllan]
kp: seems this is a far as we can go.
18:23:28 [JAllan]
gl: in FF I can customize all the controls in toolbars, show hide toolbars. but can't do anything about the menu bar.
18:23:37 [JAllan]
... is that a problem
18:24:04 [JAllan]
kp: did mozilla do this on purpose or it was too hard
18:24:46 [JAllan]
mh: all new browsers have done away with the menu bar, have an icon for options.
18:25:15 [JAllan]
mh: do we need to configure menus and status bar.
18:26:40 [JAllan]
ja: statis bars have fluid information. should the be positionable? some are actionable. can show/hide in some browsers.
18:27:03 [JAllan]
kp: wary of such detail, in two years things will look different
18:27:15 [JAllan]
s/statis/status
18:28:18 [Greg]
We should modify D to make it clear this applies to direct activation shortcuts, rather than requiring the user be able to change whether space or enter activates the control with the keyboard focus.
18:30:07 [Greg]
So change "default keystrokes or gestures used to activate controls" to use the defined phrase "direct activation commands" ?
18:32:06 [mhakkinen]
2.8.1 (d) Assign Activation Keystrokes or Gestures: The user can choose to view, assign or change default keystrokes or gestures used to [directly activate]* controls.
18:32:16 [mhakkinen]
* link to "direct activation" in glossary.
18:33:21 [JAllan]
ja: what should we do about status bars - mostly informational and fluid. though some are actionable.
18:33:47 [JAllan]
mh: use an example about a user adding a control to the status bar.
18:34:22 [JAllan]
gl: fine, if we want to enforce this on tool/menu/status bars
18:35:04 [JAllan]
... worried that this does not apply to things we don't expect to be repositionable
18:36:00 [JAllan]
gl: in FF, no script has a close button.
18:36:21 [JAllan]
ja: don't expect minus, box, x controls to be movable
18:36:46 [JAllan]
gl: explicitly exclued items that conform to OS conventions
18:37:07 [JAllan]
mh: a blanket or 'can' exempt
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s/exdlued/exclude
18:37:32 [JAllan]
s/exclued/exclude
18:38:27 [Greg]
We may want to clarify that (a) does not prohibit the UA from hiding controls when they are not applicable. For example, in Excel you may have Pivot Table controls appear only when the focus is in a pivot table.
18:39:33 [JAllan]
mh: in the wild west of browsers, they are breaking conventions everywhere. platform conventions are at the whim of the browser developter
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s/developter/developer
18:40:31 [JAllan]
mh: perhaps adding a note
18:41:54 [mhakkinen]
2.8.1 Customize display of controls representing user interface commands, functions, and extensions: The user can customize which user agent commands, functions, and extensions are displayed within the user agent's user interface as follows: (AA) (a) Show: The user can choose to display any controls, which can include user installed extensions, available within the user agent user interface. It is acceptable to limit the total number of controls t[CUT]
18:42:12 [mhakkinen]
2.8.1 Customize display of controls representing user interface commands, functions, and extensions: The user can customize which user agent commands, functions, and extensions are displayed within the user agent's user interface as follows: (AA)
18:42:22 [mhakkinen]
(a) Show: The user can choose to display any controls, which can include user installed extensions, available within the user agent user interface. It is acceptable to limit the total number of controls that are displayed onscreen.
18:42:31 [mhakkinen]
(b) Simplify: The user can simplify the default user interface by choosing to display only commands essential for basic operation (e.g. by hiding some control).
18:42:40 [mhakkinen]
(c) Reposition: The user can choose to reposition individual controls within containers (e.g. Toolbars or tool palettes), as well as reposition the containers themselves to facilitate physical access (e.g. To minimize hand travel on touch screens, or to facilitate preferred hand access on handheld mobile devices).
18:42:47 [mhakkinen]
(d) Assign Activation Keystrokes or Gestures: The user can choose to view, assign or change default keystrokes or gestures used to [directly activate]* controls.
18:42:55 [mhakkinen]
(e) Reset: The user has the option to reset the containers and controls available to their original configuration.
18:43:01 [mhakkinen]
* link to "direct activation" in glossary.
18:43:56 [JAllan]
s/control)/controls)
18:44:31 [JAllan]
gl: does show imply not shot
18:44:56 [JAllan]
... then is b) redundant
18:44:56 [Greg]
If Show implies Not Show, isn't Simplify redundant?
18:46:09 [JAllan]
ja: controls is a single control or a container of controls
18:46:55 [JAllan]
kp: simplify is not redundant. start with complex toolbar, and hides some but not all controls
18:47:17 [JAllan]
... helps get the point across, gets developers thinking the right way.
18:47:33 [JAllan]
gl: seems your are adding an intent statement.
18:48:05 [JAllan]
kp: you need to be able to simplify, but not tell them how.
18:48:32 [JAllan]
gl: need example that meets b) but not a)
18:49:57 [JAllan]
kp: a complex bar may be too busy for a user to clean up, a 1 button 'simplify' command would help them
18:50:18 [JAllan]
gl: don't think we can require that,
18:51:00 [JAllan]
gl: chrome, what would they have to do to comply with b)
18:51:31 [JAllan]
kp: they would not have to have a button to simplify, that's just one way to do it.
18:51:38 [JAllan]
... it could be an extension
18:52:24 [JAllan]
gl: trying to get a concrete example. ability to individually configure the controls.
18:53:13 [JAllan]
in microsoft, very configurable. there is no easy way to have a simple interface, except by removing LOTS of controls.
18:54:03 [JAllan]
kp: not having simplify is a barrier to some users, it goes beyond removing individual controls
18:55:14 [JAllan]
gl: seems really subjective. when is it required (how many controls) that the UA must have a simplify command.
18:55:18 [Greg]
I'm uncomfortable with it. For one it's very subjective, if you require a Simplify command only when they default configuration is "not simple enough".
18:56:06 [JAllan]
kp: important for RSI, cognitive issues, and mobile.
18:56:31 [JAllan]
... agree that it is a bit subjective taking the testability view
18:56:34 [Greg]
But I'll go with whatever the group decides.
18:57:38 [JAllan]
ja: should we keep b) in the SC
18:57:46 [Greg]
My preference would be to remove B, clarify A is about show/hide, and recommend but not require (perhaps as a AAA or in the Intent) a simple command to select a configuration with simplified UI.
18:58:25 [JAllan]
mh: b should stay in
18:58:33 [JAllan]
sh: b in
18:58:43 [JAllan]
kp: b in
18:59:12 [Greg]
If B is staying in, I'd recommend people create examples of what would and would not meet the requirement.
19:00:18 [JAllan]
we need more examples
19:00:30 [JAllan]
Kim will write examples.
19:01:55 [JAllan]
action: jeanne to add 2.8.1 above to the document, remove 2.8.2. New IER forth coming
19:01:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-776 - Add 2.8.1 above to the document, remove 2.8.2. New IER forth coming [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-11-22].
19:02:58 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 1
19:02:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Finish off 2.8 Action-747, closed
19:02:59 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
19:02:59 [Zakim]
2. Levels Discussion - start on 2.3.2 [from JAllan]
19:04:11 [JAllan]
open item 2
19:05:01 [JAllan]
topic 2.3.2
19:05:41 [JAllan]
mh: level is ok.
19:06:43 [JAllan]
action: jeanne add eg to (Alt+R to reply to a web email) in 2.3.2 so it reads (e.g. Alt+R to reply to a web email).
19:06:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-777 - Add eg to (Alt+R to reply to a web email) in 2.3.2 so it reads (e.g. Alt+R to reply to a web email). [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-11-22].
19:07:27 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2012/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20121108/#gl-configure-controls
19:15:19 [Zakim]
-sharper
19:15:58 [JAllan]
topic: 2.3.3
19:16:29 [JAllan]
mh: should be an A
19:17:18 [JAllan]
gl: move to A
19:17:43 [JAllan]
kp: should be A
19:18:16 [JAllan]
Action: jeanne to change 2.3.3 to A
19:18:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-778 - Change 2.3.3 to A [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-11-22].
19:19:02 [JAllan]
topic: 2.3.4
19:19:28 [JAllan]
all ok with AA
19:19:48 [JAllan]
mh: question about gesture control
19:20:30 [JAllan]
kp: many supports for gesture insertion in UI
19:22:33 [JAllan]
kim will write examples for 2.3.4 about gesture insertion
19:23:33 [Greg]
If the user can customize which keystroke and mouse button are associated with the Back command. Do both have to be displayed on or with the button, at least in some mode? Is there a standard for how to represent a mouse button? Or Ctrl+Left Click?
19:24:45 [Greg]
ja: His mouse has six buttons, customizable in the Mouse control panel.
19:25:58 [JAllan]
topic: 2.3.5
19:26:10 [JAllan]
no objections
19:28:07 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:28:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/15-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:29:52 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
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-Markku
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-Greg_Lowney
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-Jim_Allan
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WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
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Attendees were Greg_Lowney, Jim_Allan, Kim_Patch, Markku, sharper
19:30:12 [JAllan]
zakim, please part
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rragent, make minutes
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rrsagent, make minutes
19:53:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/15-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:54:20 [JAllan]
present: Greg_Lowney, Jim_Allan, Kim_Patch, Markku, sharper
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rrsagent, make minutes
19:54:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/15-ua-minutes.html JAllan
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