07:16:27 RRSAgent has joined #webandauto 07:16:27 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-irc 07:16:37 Zakim has joined #webandauto 07:19:36 bgidon has joined #webandauto 07:19:38 marie has joined #webandauto 07:20:16 Meeting: Shift into High Gear on the Web - Day 1 07:20:19 marie has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/08/web-and-automotive/agenda.html 07:20:47 Chair: Adam & Dave 07:34:03 sakazawa has joined #webandauto 07:37:06 agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/08/web-and-automotive/agenda.html 07:38:08 scribe: Bernard 07:39:33 Josh_Soref has joined #webandauto 07:39:52 timeless has joined #webandauto 07:39:59 scribe: Josh_Soref 07:40:11 scribenick: timeless 07:40:14 RRSAgent, draft minutes 07:40:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html timeless 07:40:17 RRSAgent, make logs public 07:40:20 RRSAgent, draft minutes 07:40:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html timeless 07:41:13 s/scribe: Bernard// 07:41:13 hrbysh has joined #webandauto 07:41:28 RRSAgent, draft minutes 07:41:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html timeless 07:43:23 sakazawa has left #webandauto 07:43:36 present+ Josh_Soref 07:45:10 present+ Marie-Claire_Forgue 07:45:26 present+ Dave_Raggett 07:47:36 sakazawa has joined #webandauto 07:48:11 present+ Adam_Abramski 07:48:20 present+ Patrick_Bastard 07:48:30 present+ Diana_Cheng 07:48:36 present+ Virginie_Galindo 07:48:45 present+ Matthias_Goebl 07:48:50 present+ Andy_Gryc 07:48:58 present+ Wolfgang_Haberl 07:49:05 present+ Marcin_Hanclik 07:49:12 present+ Christopher_Hilton 07:49:18 present+ Philipp_Hoschka 07:49:40 present+ Matt_Jones 07:49:52 present+ Nobuhide_Kotsuka 07:49:58 present+ Justin_Park 07:50:06 present+ Roger_C_Lanctot 07:50:14 present+ Marc_Lapierre 07:50:24 kaz has joined #webandauto 07:51:16 bgidon_ has joined #webandauto 07:51:29 present+ James_McGinley 07:51:32 present+ Maximilian_Michel 07:51:43 present+ Christian_Müller 07:51:50 present+ Youngsun_Ryu 07:51:56 present+ Stephan_Steglich 07:52:02 present+ Shinjiro_Urata 07:52:07 Alan has joined #webandauto 07:52:11 present+ Ryuji_Wakikawa 07:52:16 present+ Mikko_Ylinen 07:53:27 present+ Burkhard_Mayer 07:53:38 present+ Ingo_Moldenhauer 07:53:58 present+ Oliver_Novakovic 07:54:24 present+ Boris_Geller 07:54:35 present+ Simon_Isenberg 07:58:14 bgidon has joined #webandauto 07:58:19 Alan has joined #webandauto 07:58:29 hrbysh has joined #webandauto 07:59:42 present+ Uwe_Baumgartenz 08:00:03 topic: Greeting 08:00:17 plh: Good morning 08:00:18 ... and welcome 08:00:27 ... in front of you, you have a printed sheet 08:00:32 ... unfortunately, the times on it are all wrong 08:00:35 ... the right program is online 08:00:49 ...as some of you may have noticed, it's hard to get online 08:00:56 ... please use the WiFi lightly 08:01:03 ... capacity is apparently quite limited, we're working on that 08:01:13 ... amy is the person to talk to 08:01:17 topic: Introduction 08:01:26 [ Technical issues w/ slide advance ] 08:01:34 plh: why are we here? 08:01:37 ... the motivation 08:01:41 ... we see the open web platform 08:01:46 ... moving from the PC to "devices" 08:01:51 ... mobile, television, 08:01:55 ... and we think automotive is next 08:02:03 ... we thought: let's do a workshop, let's get started 08:02:13 ... let's see the needs of the automotive community from the web platform 08:02:28 ... we started working with XXX 2 years ago 08:02:33 ... with mobile/tv 08:02:42 ... we see using web technology as a way to overcome fragmentation 08:02:53 ... for mobile, you don't need different code for different targets 08:02:55 ... same for TV 08:02:59 ... cross OS, cross platform 08:03:12 [ Technical issues - how to slide back? ] 08:03:24 plh: Web tech works cross devices 08:03:37 ... you can take something from a Mobile device to a Tablet 08:03:43 ... FT moved from Mobile to HTML5 08:03:57 ... today you can't get a native app on the apple store, it's just html 08:04:07 DanielAustin has joined #webandauto 08:04:10 ... and they just did a Windows version, they found it easy to port HTML5 08:04:22 ... the TV industry is interested in using HTML5 for TVs and tablets 08:04:28 ... Web Tech: more developers, cheaper 08:04:43 ... looking at your papers, these advantages seem to apply to automotive as well 08:04:48 ... About W3C 08:04:58 ... our mission is to "Lead the Web to its Full Potential" 08:05:06 ... Directed by Web inventor Tim Berners-Lee 08:05:20 ... Standards: HTML5, XML, SOAP, RDF, VoiceXML, ... 08:05:34 ... Mission: "One Web": Desktop, Mobile, TV, Automotive (?) 08:05:41 ... W3C -- C for Consortium 08:05:50 ... Whole Web ecosystem: Browsers, IT, ... 08:06:01 ... - ever expanding: Mobile companies, TV companies, ... 08:06:09 ... New Platform - New Requirements 08:06:20 ... Mobile: Smaller screen size, Geolocation, device APIs 08:06:31 ... TV: Content protection, Video streaming 08:06:46 marie has joined #webandauto 08:06:47 ... Automotive: Context awareness, Vehicle APIs, Tactile input/output, ... 08:07:01 ... Workshop goal: complete list (of requirements) for automotive 08:07:08 ... Workshop Working Rules 08:07:10 ... Talks 08:07:13 ... - 20 minutes talk 08:07:19 bgidon_ has joined #webandauto 08:07:23 ... - 10 minutes for questions 08:07:26 ... - mix questions and talk 08:07:36 ... Conclusion discussion at end of each day 08:07:41 ... Agenda Day 1 08:07:44 ... Topics 08:07:52 kaz has joined #webandauto 08:07:52 http://www.w3.org/2012/08/web-and-automotive/agenda.html 08:07:58 .. - Safety, situation awareness, mitigating driver distraction 08:08:10 ... - Multiple displays and integration with phone or tablet(s) 08:08:15 ... - Vehicle APIs and Security 08:08:24 ... Invited talk: Audi (OEM perspective) 08:08:30 ... [... see agenda ] 08:08:34 ... Agenda Day 2 08:08:36 ... Topics 08:08:50 ... - HMI, speech, multimodal, HUD, spatial audio, 08:08:55 ... - Cloud-based services 08:08:57 ... - M2M 08:09:02 ... - Research perspectives 08:09:07 ... [... see agenda ] 08:09:13 ... Right Participants 08:09:32 ... OEMs: Audi, BMW, Honda, Hyundai, Renault, Mitsubishi,, Volkswagen, Toyota 08:09:44 ... Operators: KDDI, Vodafone, Orange/France Telecom, ... 08:09:49 ... Workshop Goals: Technical 08:09:55 ... Vehicle APIs 08:10:00 ... Context management 08:10:03 ... What is not a good idea? 08:10:06 ... What is missing? 08:10:13 ... Workshop Goals: Social 08:10:18 ... Where is consensus? 08:10:21 ... Get to know each other 08:10:24 ... Learn from each other 08:10:35 ... Thanks to : 08:10:39 ... Intel for hosting the workshop 08:10:45 ... Our sponsors: QNX and Webinos 08:10:53 ... Our programme committee members 08:11:03 ... Anouncements 08:11:21 ... [Agenda needs to be updated] 08:11:27 ... [WiFi - please use sparingly] 08:11:34 ... Chairs: Adam and Dave 08:11:40 adam: Practical things 08:11:46 ... plh talked about WiFi 08:11:53 ... amy is the planner 08:11:57 ... if you see her, thank her 08:12:05 s/plh/ph/ 08:12:14 ... she said folks may be using multiple devices on WiFi 08:12:19 ... try not to 08:12:27 ... marie said there are people taking photos 08:12:32 s/plh/ph/g 08:12:44 ... if you're uncomfortable, please speak to marie, adam, dsr, ph 08:13:07 ... at 5:30pm, we had a bit of budget left, so we'll have a reception - down one floor 08:13:17 ... maybe in preparation for a nice dinner 08:13:25 ... My involvement with this on the W3C side 08:13:35 ... I used to work for Sun Microsystems (now Oracle) 08:13:41 ... I was involved in Java Community Process 08:13:42 naomi has joined #webandauto 08:13:54 ... I was the product manager for J2ME when it was in its infancy 08:14:03 ... I've done JCP, but i've never been involved with W3C 08:14:18 ... this is a great opportunity for the automotive industry to have a voice to w3c 08:14:23 ... what's unique about automotive 08:14:35 ... so automotive UCs are taken care of 08:14:45 ... this is your opportunity to tell W3C what is unique about automotive 08:15:10 ... marie has a memory stick that we'd like to get all the presentations for this afternoon 08:15:24 ... if you could find marie and put your presentations on that stick, it makes things much easier 08:15:37 ... W3C would also like to put the presentations on the public web site after the workshop 08:15:46 ... I believe it was mentioned in the invitation to the presenters 08:16:06 s/... Anouncements/Topic: Announcements/ 08:16:25 s/... [Agenda needs to be updated]/ph: [Agenda needs to be updated]/ 08:16:57 Topic: Presentations 08:17:07 ph: If we could switch to the first presentation 08:17:26 ... by Audi 08:17:31 [ Audi connect ] 08:17:40 nils: Good morning 08:17:51 ... my name is Nils Oppermann, from Audi Electronics Venture 08:18:00 ... a 100% daughter company [of Audi] 08:18:05 ... we're doing predevelopment 08:18:15 ... I've been doing matlab toolchain before 2010 08:18:23 ... embedded software driver assistance systems 08:18:27 ... since 2010 i've been in the web world 08:18:38 ... a feature launched last year at Audi: Online traffic information system 08:18:47 ... a web based client which downloads web based traffic information 08:18:54 ... larger bandwidth than radio systems 08:19:00 ... I brought 3 colleagues 08:19:03 ... Matthias 08:19:06 ... Thomas 08:19:09 ... XXX 08:19:31 ... I'll give you an overview of how Audi evolved 08:19:40 ... the goal is to integrate the digital world into the car 08:19:47 ... so if you enter the car, you don't feel disconnected 08:19:53 ... I'm going to talk to infotainment 08:19:58 ... and attached devices 08:20:12 [ Audi connect Motivation ] 08:20:35 nils: We didn't know the hotel name; we had to google the location in our smart phone 08:20:39 ... to tell the taxi driver 08:20:45 ... The information is personalized 08:21:01 rrsagent, make log Member 08:21:30 ... in the future, the service around the web might integrate the car 08:21:44 ... I expect the car to give me the best routes 08:21:52 ... and locations around 08:21:55 rrsagent, make log Public 08:22:16 [ Audi connect - Key requirements ] 08:22:26 nils: Usability & Safety 08:22:40 ... driver distraction / joy of use / Daily drive 08:22:49 ... Security & Privacy 08:22:54 ... User data / Accounting 08:23:01 ... Cost & Business Model 08:23:08 ... Development / Maintenance 08:23:17 nils: Our services somehow need to be voice activated 08:23:22 ... and deliver voice feedback 08:23:29 ... and need to avoid driver distraction 08:23:36 ... functions we want to do 08:23:47 ... ... need sort of integrated apps 08:23:54 ... a google maps/earth client 08:24:02 ... that integrates with the entertainment system 08:24:20 ... If Usability doesn't kill the UC, Security probably does 08:24:30 ... User data needs to be safe+secure -- transparent to the user 08:24:35 ... what data is used, how it is used 08:24:41 ... the traffic information we use 08:25:08 ... it downloads information, but also uploads anonymized information 08:25:17 ... we authenticate our vehicles, we authenticate our users 08:25:22 ... we will have multi user systems 08:25:28 ... e.g. the rental car UC 08:25:34 ... we don't want the next user to have your credentials 08:25:41 ... Facebook accounts, etc. 08:25:51 ... Cost / Business model, it's still unclear 08:25:54 ... we're a really small platform 08:26:06 ... we're competing w/ Consumer Electronics companies who launch quarterly 08:26:11 ... we have to support devices for a long time 08:26:20 ... the Android ecosystem has year old devices that don't get updates 08:26:28 ... our vehicles from production - produced 7 years 08:26:34 ... for another 7 years, we have to provide services 08:26:46 ... at least if they have paid for that [warranty/etc.] 08:26:52 ... last point 08:27:01 ... to be competitive, and offer unique features 08:27:06 ... in the vehicle-web world 08:27:11 ... we have to rely on established technology 08:27:24 ... the entertainment system today is built w/ similar technology as smart phones 08:27:30 ... ARM, QNX/Linux 08:27:33 ... high use of Java 08:27:50 ... communicating with the outside we use W3C HTML/XML/HTTP 08:27:54 ... APIs are a big issue 08:28:00 ... if a service has to run for 15 years 08:28:08 ... we have to plan and modularize our apis 08:28:20 [ Audi connect - General architecture ] 08:28:24 nils: left to right 08:28:34 ... Vehicle client (Services, UMTS module, SIM) 08:28:43 ... Protocol stack (XML, HTTP, TCP/IP) 08:28:55 ... Audi Backend (Services, Authentication, App. Management, Accounting) 08:29:02 ... Content Provider (Services, APIs) 08:29:08 nils: Today we use customer SIM card 08:29:16 ... in the future it may be an MTM SIM 08:29:31 ... for backend interfaces, we've used XML 08:29:41 ... it allows for a nice way to structure interfaces 08:29:52 ... and provides a way to do them in a tools supported way on the backend 08:30:15 ... App. Management: which vehicle receives which version of which service 08:30:34 ... we have to control which users receive which version of data/content apis 08:30:49 ... we rely on third parties to provide us apis 08:30:59 ... at a considerable cost today - because we're a small platform 08:31:15 ... standardization will enable automotive industry to impact providers and reduce cost 08:31:25 [ Audi connect - Since 2010 models: 1st generation services ] 08:31:42 nils: Tightly coupled w/ native user interface, dependent on vehicle life-cycle 08:32:00 ... today it's flashed, and might receive an (one) update 08:32:18 ... You don't notice that it's web, except branding ... e.g. Google POI Voice search 08:32:41 ... we also have browser baed online services 08:32:46 s/baed/based/ 08:32:54 .... Audi-styled websites, unpersonalized, location-based 08:33:00 ... everyone gets the same content 08:33:05 s/..../.../ 08:33:19 ... integrated with system so you could call from the car 08:33:30 ... Browser Look and Feel drawbacks 08:34:00 harukon has joined #webandauto 08:34:01 [ Audi connect - Today: 2st generation services ] 08:34:11 nils: we still do integrated online services 08:34:20 ... tightly coupled w/ native user interface 08:34:32 ... SMS dictation/picture destinations - in the new A3 08:34:55 ... we use native widget screens which we parametrize to dynamic content 08:35:03 ... Remote-HMI 08:35:22 s/... Remote-HMI// 08:35:41 s/we/... Remote-HMI - we/ 08:35:48 ... Facebook, twitter ... 08:35:54 [ Audi connect - Today: 2st generation services ] 08:36:00 nils: Remote-HMI key facts 08:36:06 ... dynamic use of native user interface 08:36:22 .... native widgets, animated transitions, anchors into native HMI dialogs 08:36:32 ... Audi MMI Touch-Wheel & Speech dialogue system integration 08:36:43 ... we don't have a Touch screen... our friends at YY do 08:37:01 ... Strong re-use of native user interface 08:37:05 ... we have limited space to test 08:37:15 ... we know how our native widgets behave regarding driver distraction 08:37:21 ... we have ergonomics 08:37:25 ... studies 08:37:26 marie has joined #webandauto 08:37:49 ... by reusing these for our web services we guarantee web services don't distract the driver more than a normal element 08:37:54 ... we have an integrated web browser 08:37:58 ... to display general web content 08:38:07 ... embedded in remote-HMI framework 08:38:14 ... if a detail view of a POI service 08:38:19 ... wanted to display customer reviewws 08:38:22 s/wws/ws/ 08:38:28 ... we could still switch to an HTML browser based UI 08:38:53 ... same language for mobile device and app integration 08:38:57 RRSAgent, draft mintues 08:38:57 I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft mintues', timeless. Try /msg RRSAgent help 08:39:02 s/RRSAgent, draft mintues// 08:39:05 RRSAgent, draft minutes 08:39:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html timeless 08:39:19 ... built on W3C web standard SCXML 08:39:35 ... "Why do we do this instead of HTML?" 08:39:45 ... we describe look and feel transitions 08:39:55 [ this sounds like WML ] 08:40:01 nils: we do support html 08:40:07 ... and once we solve the issues 08:40:17 ... security, distraction, ... 08:40:30 ... [we'll transition to html] 08:40:46 [ Audi connect - Outlook: 3rd generation services ] 08:40:55 nils: issues regarding mobile device support 08:41:04 ... HTML5 support in embedded browser 08:41:24 ... performance might be an issue 08:41:34 ... Vehicle data abstraction (API) 08:41:44 ... we need an api to the functionality of the infotainment system 08:42:01 ... We're looking into JavaScript/WebGL for high performance rendering of remote content 08:42:36 ... A service provider which implements things needs something that works over many vehicles 08:42:44 ... even multiple manufacturers 08:42:57 bgidon has joined #webandauto 08:42:59 ... Our application looks 90% like a web application 08:43:04 ... tooling is a big issue 08:43:09 ... integrated tooling for the developer 08:43:16 ... so he can see in short iterations what he's doing 08:43:27 ... if the application is hosted on a smart phone/back-end system 08:43:35 ... we need an abstraction of the platform for a developer 08:43:39 RRSAgent, draft minutes 08:43:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html timeless 08:43:49 ... to achieve time to market efficiency 08:44:02 ... cheaper time to market/developers 08:44:09 ... we still need to guarantee quality 08:44:18 [ Audi connect - Summary ] 08:44:27 nils: biggest issue is standardized tooling 08:44:53 ... there's a conflict 08:44:59 ... between up-to-date 08:45:05 ... and roaming 08:45:20 ... if the web content percentage increases 08:45:41 ... we have to ensure product works where-ever user goes 08:45:48 ... have to enable testing 08:45:52 ... "iPhone issue" 08:46:02 ... if you make something for "iPhone" and they change the connector 08:46:08 ... you're left standing there 08:46:23 ... you're left explaining to your customers why you have to use old iPhones in your latest and greated cars 08:46:32 s/greated/greatest/ 08:46:46 ... Mobile web technologies being platform independent 08:47:03 ... offers the opportunity to achieve this over several vehicles 08:47:38 Josh_Soref: Hi, I'm Josh Soref, from RIM, your scribe for today 08:47:42 ... please introduce yourself 08:47:47 ... and speak loudly 08:47:49 [ Applause ] 08:47:57 ph: you said you wanted to use APIs and reduce costs 08:48:01 ... what did you mean? 08:48:06 nils: it's a small platform 08:48:14 ... we're still involved on our side 08:48:20 ... the bottleneck is development resources 08:48:30 ... we don't have a standardized way to develop web services 08:48:36 ... the experiences that content providers 08:48:41 ... once they hear a big name 08:48:49 ... "audi is the big name of vehicles" 08:48:58 ... content providers think they can send them big bills 08:49:04 ... with a standardized way to develop 08:49:09 ... we can reduce the cost 08:49:15 ... with Android, I have 100 apps installed 08:49:19 ... I've paid for maybe 1 08:49:30 ... If you want Weather for your Car, you have to pay a lot 08:49:36 ... it's a small market, maybe growing 08:49:46 ... but compared to daily activations of Android, we're very small 08:49:49 ... we can't afford 08:49:57 ... we don't have the market throughput of Android/Google 08:50:09 ... on an economic basis, we have to work out how to pay for these services+content 08:50:21 sakawa: Sakawa, KDDI 08:50:26 ... question about interoperability 08:50:29 s/sakawa/sakazawa/ 08:50:30 ... you mentioned it's important 08:50:35 s/Sakawa/Sakazawa/ 08:50:37 ... how do you differentiate your service 08:50:53 ... Head Unit can be replaced 08:51:05 ... how do you differentiate your service/equipment? 08:51:13 nils: separating the concerns from application logic from UA 08:51:21 ... which the web does using Style Sheets/similar tech 08:51:28 ... if you do a Video based solution 08:51:34 ... you have to make it look like your HMI 08:51:41 ... you have to test it -- very difficult 08:52:05 maximilian: Maximilian, BMW 08:52:16 ... in the latest generation, the application logic is running in the backend servers? 08:52:20 nils: basically, yes 08:52:22 ... it's a web site 08:52:30 ... for performance+security, we use very little client logic 08:52:35 ph: one last question 08:52:42 qqq: QQQ 08:52:55 ... Audi is connecting user data? 08:53:01 ... for potential services 08:53:11 nils: there are predevelopment activities 08:53:17 ... "customer is king - as we say in Germany" 08:53:26 ... we don't want him to have security/privacy concerns 08:53:34 ... we don't want to ruin our reputation 08:53:45 ... for traffic, we separate the data 08:54:02 ... the traffic system gets the data about cars in general w/o information about which 08:54:07 s/qqq: QQQ/WooChul: Jung Woo Chul, Hundai/ 08:54:18 ... the car gets traffic, but we don't get information about their location 08:54:32 WooChul: i think the OEM should know about the customers 08:55:40 Kaz Ashimura, W3C 08:56:26 ... we could figure out which softkey is used 08:56:26 kaz: Kaz, W3C 08:56:26 ... activity lead for Multimodal WG 08:56:26 ... interested in your slides on SCXML 08:56:26 ... do you think there's the possibility to use the MM architecture 08:56:27 ... for server-client 08:58:02 s/qqq/Woochul/ 08:58:12 s/QQQ/Hyundai/ 08:58:18 timeless_scribe has joined #webandauto 08:58:27 topic: HTML5 standardization in auto 08:58:33 gryc: hello 08:58:47 i/topic:/scribenick: timeless_scribe/ 08:58:59 ... Andy Gryc, QNX 08:59:08 ... Why HTML5 for the car? 08:59:12 ... What can QNX contribute? 08:59:18 ... Where should W3C go? 08:59:24 [ Consumer vs OEM lifecyle ] 08:59:34 gryc: my colleague from Audi spoke about this 08:59:39 ... 1 year Android life cycle. 08:59:43 ... 7+7 for Vehicle 08:59:43 s/MM architecture/MMI architecture/ 08:59:56 ... this is the key thing that drives wanting to use HTML5 09:00:05 ... if you use HTML5, you aren't reinventing the wheel 09:00:19 ... that comes along with Quality and Process 09:00:25 ... that neils mentioned 09:00:30 s/neils/niels/ 09:00:36 s/for server-client/and integrate the 2nd generation Remote-HMI approach and the 3rd generation JavaScript approach?/ 09:00:52 [ Increasing cconsumer demand ] 09:01:04 gryc: consumers say they spent $XXXXX for a car 09:01:10 ... they expect more from it than from their phone 09:01:13 i/topic: HTML5 standardization in auto/nils: there is a possibility/ 09:01:17 ... personalizing experience 09:01:33 ... pick how the car looks 09:01:37 ... what the car does 09:01:40 ... how the car behaves 09:01:46 [ HTML5 isa natural choice ] 09:01:54 gryc: you've got a big echosystem of devleopers, tools 09:01:56 s/isa/is a/ 09:02:02 ... that's something car makers don't get easily 09:02:10 ... for a car maker to traditionally 09:02:23 ... they have to find someone, then work with them 09:02:26 ... how the modules work together 09:02:32 ... explain the requirements 09:02:49 ... if the company is using the same platform, that simplifies things 09:02:55 ... Standards is about avoiding Vendor lock in 09:03:09 ... people say "you guys are building that, why would you want to avoid Lock in?" 09:03:16 ... at QNX, we've been doing a lot around standards 09:03:24 ... companies can differentiate on QoI 09:03:34 ... our ability to support POSIX, Eclipse, ... 09:03:43 ... HTML5 is a way to allow that interoperability 09:03:53 ... Flexibility is something that HTML5 really provides 09:04:11 ... in nils's example, the consumer didn't know which was native 09:04:17 ... things coming in from mobile, cloud, embedded 09:04:23 ... lets you deploy things differently 09:04:31 ... not everything needs to be baked into the car when it ships 09:04:33 ... Branding 09:04:38 ... this is something that CSS provides 09:04:44 ... every car maker wants to have brnading 09:04:50 ... from a developer's PoV 09:04:54 naomi has joined #webandauto 09:04:59 ... without standards 09:05:00 s/brnading/branding/ 09:05:17 ... each vendor would build a different app for each manufacturer 09:05:23 ... but CSS allows them to make one app 09:05:27 ... Lifespan 09:05:34 ... I expect HTML5 to be around for a long time 09:05:52 ... Time to market... HTML5 has this, other things do too, but HTML5 really does this 09:06:02 ... "cheap engineers", well HTML5 developers aren't all cheap 09:06:15 ... they're using technology which provides a lot more capability built in 09:06:21 ... which goes to Powerful 09:06:25 ... finally, Cross-platform 09:06:34 ... the ability to take apps from mobile and deploy them to the phone and car 09:06:42 ... HTML5 is supported across every model of phone 09:06:51 ... iPhone, Android, Windows, BlackBerry 09:06:55 ... easier transition 09:06:57 [ What? ] 09:07:02 [ QNX in automotive ] 09:07:12 gryc: a bunch of logos 09:07:19 [ QNX CAR 2 applicaiton platform ] 09:07:24 gryc: BB10 software stack 09:07:31 ... taking what we've done for PlayBook and BB10 09:07:39 ... and then adding on what Automotive needs 09:07:44 ... I can show this at our demo booth 09:07:57 ... it's adding an HTML5 environment to an infotainment stack 09:08:09 ... we're not saying you should build it with html5 09:08:14 ... but we're saying it's powerful enough to do it 09:08:19 ... for actual implementation 09:08:27 harukon has joined #webandauto 09:08:30 ... car makers could say they'll do it with Electropic Eye 09:08:33 ... or Qt 09:08:47 ... But we want to show that the outside world content can be HTML5 driven 09:08:58 [ QNX CAR 2 feature hightlights ] 09:09:05 gryc: a key thing to understand 09:09:12 ... where standardization will happen in W3C 09:09:16 s/gryc/andy gryc 09:09:29 s/andy gryc/gryc/ 09:09:58 ... things will be below the standardization 09:10:06 [ QNX CAR 2 Applications - Sample HMI Designs ] 09:10:13 gryc: these are done in HTML5 09:10:25 ... to show we've been able to duplicate most of the features 09:10:28 ... using standards 09:10:35 ... even coverflow can be done in HTML5 09:10:40 [ QNX CAR HTML5 framework ] 09:10:53 gryc: HTML5 environment w/ front-end + apps 09:11:00 ... allows entire Ui to be easily reskinned 09:11:05 ... launcher 09:11:12 ... We use Sencha Touch Mobile and jQuery 09:11:16 ... a mix for widget sets 09:11:25 ... we created our own QNX-designed infotainment skin 09:11:32 ... App store integration 09:11:44 ... we have designed a way to download application bundles 09:11:49 ... and I want to talk about that 09:11:55 [ HTML5 app packaging ] 09:12:03 gryc: most developers use a Text Editor 09:12:09 ... along with the web browser and Web Inspect 09:12:17 ... you create aspects in one place 09:12:26 ... HTML5, CSS, JS, Images, Icons 09:12:35 ... from packaging perspective, you need to take those objects and deploy them 09:12:46 ... for packaging, we use a derivative of WebWorks 09:12:49 ... it's on GitHub 09:12:57 ... and will be contributed to Apache Cordova 09:13:05 ... i'm not sure how much of that is Standards org or Open Source 09:13:24 ... but if you want to bring applications between car makers, you'll need some sort of standard there 09:13:42 ... How do you guarantee it doesn't access certain features of the vehicle you don't want it to 09:14:02 ... how does an OEM allow the OEM to deploy certain features but not allow other apps to access them 09:14:05 ... we have a manifest 09:14:08 ... which is signed 09:14:17 ... and have something which checks that 09:14:20 ... there's some debate 09:14:29 ... different capabilities to OEM/general dev 09:14:35 ... this "breaks the standard" 09:14:51 ... there will need to be some greater level of capability for OEM sanctioned apps than general apps 09:14:57 [ Ripple for QNX CAR ] 09:15:06 gryc: Ripple is RIM's emulator for doing HTML5 09:15:12 ... generally for phone 09:15:17 ... but we've adapted this for CAR 09:15:24 ... just like Ripple is part of GitHub 09:15:33 ... our intent is to release [Ripple CAR] as well 09:15:38 ... it provides the underlying pieces 09:15:45 ... to allow you to mimic the underlying vehicle bus 09:15:49 timeless has joined #webandauto 09:15:50 ... HVAC, multimedia 09:15:56 ... enough capability to test it 09:15:59 ... without having a car 09:16:10 ... average developers need a way to develop 09:16:15 Josh_Soref has joined #webandauto 09:16:17 ... they can't need to buy panda boards 09:16:20 ... and custom head units 09:16:33 ... they need a way to test their app before giving it to an OEM 09:16:42 ... we see the OEM as a broker 09:16:54 ... but this gives developers the way to create Apps without heavy overhead 09:17:11 [ QNX CAR and native access ] 09:17:18 s/[ QNX/[ QNX/ 09:17:25 gryc: providing access to vehicle bus 09:17:37 ... we think standardizing on Apple related things to W3C standard is probably not appropriate 09:17:46 ... but allowing a way to control multimedia probably is 09:17:53 ... but adding things underneath for Apple/DLNA 09:18:03 [ JavaScript access to platform services ] 09:18:10 gryc: we have PPS, Persistent-Publish Subscribe 09:18:22 ... in the HTML5 layer, we wrap those instances with a JS class 09:18:41 ... which lets an app interact with those apis without caring about PPS 09:18:50 ... you could replace PPS with DBUS and this picture would be the same 09:19:04 ... so applications built for a car could rely on this 09:19:11 [ Example JavaScript components ] 09:19:17 gryc: Framework classes 09:19:23 ... get messages from car 09:19:30 ... control settings / theming 09:19:39 ... provide access (Bluetooth, Audio Player, Phone) 09:19:48 [ Example audioplayer methods ] 09:19:57 ... setTrackSession(config, index) 09:19:59 ... play() 09:20:03 ... playAt(index) 09:20:04 ... ... 09:20:17 gryc: the Implementation from the JS side is just application Look and Feel 09:20:22 ... no business logic, just presentation 09:20:29 [ Needed areas of W3C focus ] 09:20:35 gryc: 1. Application packaging 09:20:43 ... ability to move app develpoment across platforms 09:20:53 ... not sure if Cordova is this 09:20:57 ... it's an Open Source thing 09:21:04 ... maybe packaging isn't necessarily where W3C focuses 09:21:11 ph: we do have something on Packaging 09:21:21 ... it's called Widgets 09:21:27 ... I believe Cordova is based on it 09:21:34 ... the issue is that Browser people don't like it 09:21:35 Zakim has left #webandauto 09:21:38 ... there's work on it 09:21:49 gryc: OT: If there's an industry adopted thing 09:21:53 ... if you created a standard 09:22:01 ... and browser people went with JSON 09:22:16 ph: we have a Recommendation, it's not a standard 09:22:19 ... we're still looking at it 09:22:23 ... if there's more push... 09:22:27 gryc: excellent 09:22:37 [ Needed areas of W3C focus ] 09:22:41 gryc: 2. Native access APIs 09:22:50 ... the intent of the browser is to protect the underlying system 09:23:13 ... that gives a level of consistency for app developers 09:23:44 ... need to allow ability to adapt to what's present 09:23:53 [ Needed areas of W3C focus ] 09:24:00 gryc: 3. Mobile + car integration 09:24:09 ... for ability to run/host on mobile and display in car 09:24:15 ... MirrorLink / iPod out 09:24:27 naomi has joined #webandauto 09:24:29 ... i think having a server on the phone 09:24:34 ... and html application running in the car 09:24:46 ... CCC has had proposals to go from VNC protocol to HTML5 based 09:24:51 ... but it could be addressed by standardization 09:24:56 [ Needed areas of W3C focus ] 09:25:03 gryc: 4. Distraction prevention and OEM skinning 09:25:09 ... if you want to have an application 09:25:14 ... unless you want to target just one OEM 09:25:18 ... certainly OEMs want that 09:25:27 ... but developers want to target multiple platforms 09:25:34 ... the best way is to reskin with CSS 09:25:39 ... need a consistent way to reskin 09:26:07 ... mobile developers as a whole don't understand Car / Driver Distraction 09:26:13 ... part is education 09:26:20 ... part is addressable by providing templates 09:26:30 ... List picking 09:26:54 ... gives ability for OEMs to differentiate with CSS 09:26:55 [ Needed areas of W3C focus ] 09:27:01 gryc: 5. App devleopment guidelines 09:27:06 ... most developers i've spoken with 09:27:11 ... "i've got this great idea" 09:27:20 ... "why don't i take this video recording app and bring it in the car" 09:27:27 ... -- yeah, i don't think that's appropriate 09:27:32 ... Guidelines 09:27:37 ... I see this as a Tech Note / Whitepaper 09:27:54 ... HTML5 is opening that door a crack 09:28:07 ... I think we should explain why we're opening that door a crack and not swinging it wide open 09:28:10 [ Applause ] 09:28:14 ph: time for one question 09:28:28 takashi: Tatzaki Takashi, Mitsubish 09:28:34 s/takashi/takahashi/ 09:28:41 ... we have been trying to propose W3C widgets for OEMS 09:28:44 s/Takashi/Takahashi/ 09:28:45 s/OEMS/OEMs/ 09:28:48 ... so far, they're not welcomed 09:28:58 s/Mitsubish/Mitsubishi/ 09:29:05 ... i'd like to know your opinion about packages 09:29:12 ... some seem to prefer online without installation 09:29:16 gryc: that's a good question 09:29:33 ... packaging is ... giving the car maker the flexibility to run that app embedded v. cloud 09:29:43 ... we don't have ubiquitous coverage/guaranteed connectivity 09:29:51 ... may be tethered, may run out of power 09:30:04 ... bringing flexibility to bring app from cloud to running on the head unit 09:30:08 ... that's where packaging comes in 09:30:15 ... and also for an app store context 09:30:26 ... if you don't want all apps to be tied to some mobile device strategy 09:30:34 ... an app store in the car needs to deal w/ packaging 09:30:38 ... where's the store, ... 09:30:44 takahashi: thank you 09:30:52 Topic: Next Speaker 09:30:55 ph: next speaker 09:31:02 Topic: RRR 09:31:16 tiger: YYY, OOO from Harman 09:31:28 ... we deliver head units 09:31:31 ... for a wide range of cars 09:31:41 s/RRR/Harman/ 09:31:41 ... from high class through middle to low end cars 09:31:53 ... handsfree phone, bluetooth, wifi 09:32:01 ... UPnP, MirrorLink 09:32:07 ... PIM / Calendar ... access to exchange/mail 09:32:11 ... Contacts/Notes/Email 09:32:20 dcheng3 has joined #webandauto 09:32:29 ... w/ UMTS we have LTE demos available 09:32:41 ... we're responsible for bringing browser tech into the car for headunits from Harman 09:32:47 ... that's the one side of connectivity 09:33:03 ... other side is interface to car itself 09:33:06 ... entertainment 09:33:16 ... comfort systems (position) 09:33:21 ... climate control, etc. 09:33:43 ... Harman has already introduced an IDL called "Franka" 09:33:45 ... in the area of "Genivi" 09:33:55 ... those interfaces in the car between car components 09:33:59 ... it's an Open Source project 09:34:03 s/tiger/steiger/ 09:34:04 ... it will be used in Genivi 09:34:17 ... with those interfaces, we come to the browser side 09:34:20 ... we played around with it 09:34:28 s/YYY, OOO/Roman Steiger/ 09:34:36 ... how could we fit browser interfaces, maybe WebIDL with car interfaces 09:34:49 ... what we'd like to contribute in that area 09:34:56 ... is standardized interfaces in the browser 09:35:04 ... to get access to the interfaces in the car/head-unit 09:35:10 ... from that point of view 09:35:20 s/Roman Steiger/Roman Steiger, Peter Gaus/ 09:35:24 ... it'd be essential for applications written in HTML/JS to provide such interfaces in a standardized form 09:35:29 ... for third party applications 09:35:36 ... or applications developed for car manufacturers 09:35:49 ... if we have these standardized interfaces 09:35:52 harukon has joined #webandauto 09:36:00 ... then it's much easier to port these applicationss 09:36:12 ... and for these applications to control the car 09:36:25 ... if we do this standardization as we have in Genivi 09:36:35 ... then it's easier to get acceptance 09:36:38 ... Harman 09:37:02 ... it would be good to applications portable, not just to different cars, customized by style sheets 09:37:16 ... but to get an application that does nothing else than provide functionality to control Radio/Heating 09:37:20 ... but where does it run? 09:37:21 ... in the car? 09:37:28 ... i.e. in the HMI 09:37:42 ... Where does the browser run? in the browser? in the mobile phone? in a tablet? 09:37:59 ... standardized interface to use apps, not just in the car, but also in Android phone/Tablet 09:38:10 ... so it'd be possible to have a remote control using the same control logic 09:38:29 ... Look and Feel may differ, but control logic would be the same 09:38:37 ... so, it should be possible that these interfaces 09:39:02 ... could be satisfied by browser in different ways 09:39:10 ... for HMI host, manufacturer provides one way 09:39:21 .. if browser is in mobile device, how to get access to real components in car? 09:39:35 s/../... / 09:39:40 pgraff has joined #webandauto 09:39:45 ... a way to overload, implement as plugin/... 09:39:53 ... a way to have access everywhere 09:40:16 pgaus: for guys in this room 09:40:32 ... to have a way to provide feedback on interface transformation 09:40:40 ... everyone in this room already has interface definitions 09:40:53 harukon has joined #webandauto 09:40:59 ... I think it'd be good to be able to transform them into WebIDL 09:41:00 ... as gryc said 09:41:08 ... and we need security as niels said 09:41:11 steiger: thank you 09:41:14 [ Applause ] 09:41:17 ph: any questions? 09:41:31 ... and it'd be good to have a packaging mechanism 09:41:33 ... you want to translate existing APIs to WebIDL? 09:41:40 ... do you want to keep APIs as is? or standardize? 09:41:51 ... two steps, find a mapping, and then standardize api? 09:41:53 ... or go straight? 09:41:57 steiger: both is possible 09:42:04 ... the interfaces between car components 09:42:07 ... may be different 09:42:13 ... depends on OEM/head-unit 09:42:34 ... there might be a chance to have a better standardized interface between car components than what we have now 09:42:42 ... looking forward w/ Genivi 09:42:48 ... I could imagine second step being first 09:43:06 ... it'd be much easier to have standarized api for browsers 09:43:14 ... but if we get standard api specification for browser 09:43:23 ... we could get Adaptation layers for cars 09:43:29 ph: ok, interesting. 09:43:36 ... other questions... to Harman, or general comments? 09:43:41 gryc: one observation 09:43:56 ... when I was talking about APIs to the car, I was talking about running in the Car 09:44:01 ... but having the APIs be client-server 09:44:08 ... so you could run them from user's Phone/etc. 09:44:13 ... but security would be crucial 09:44:18 ... another interesting application 09:44:26 ... being able to run applications when you're nowhere near the car 09:44:31 ... remote unlocks, check car status 09:44:39 ... an entire class of applications you could enable 09:44:40 ... Good 09:44:53 pgaus: we have the chance to do low level 09:44:55 ... or existing 09:44:59 ... or do native in browser 09:45:04 ph: ok 09:45:14 kaz: Kaz, again 09:45:31 ... I'd like to ask all the presenters from these sessions about Time Synchronization 09:45:40 ... what sort of mechanism should be used? 09:45:47 ... maybe precise time management is needed? 09:46:08 gryc: i don't think the Time Synchronization that accompanies video playback 09:46:18 ... I think responsiveness of the UI is a bigger consideration 09:46:23 ...it's a latency/responsiveness issue 09:46:29 ... not something that can be baked into a spec 09:46:34 ... just a requirement for the Car 09:46:44 ... maybe 250ms for the car 09:46:51 ... up to the platform to meet that 09:47:06 nils: when we're talking about UI today 09:47:12 ... we don't have Time Synchronization today 09:47:14 ... it's best effort 09:47:18 ... architecture is Event based 09:47:23 ... based on middleware 09:47:29 ... system native components, there are timing constraints 09:47:35 ... but we're talking about non native components 09:47:40 ... timing isn't our biggest issue 09:47:42 ph: ok 09:47:48 ... let's thank all speakers 09:47:50 [ Applause ] 09:47:59 ph: Break until 11:30am 09:48:05 ... demos over there, coffee outside 10:31:25 kaz has joined #webandauto 10:31:36 timeless_scribe has joined #webandauto 10:31:50 marie: you're welcome to get one of these 10:31:53 ... a safety jacket 10:32:01 ... in europe, it's mandatory to have one of these in your car 10:32:08 ... since this workshop is about safety 10:32:13 ... here's a safety jacket 10:32:37 Topic: Safety situational awareness / driver distraction 10:32:49 dsr: before I start, we apologize about the networking 10:32:58 ... if you're using WiFi on your phone, please turn it off 10:33:11 ... if you really need a network, we have a small number of cables 10:33:16 ... talk to the people outside 10:33:24 ... let's start with the people from YYY 10:33:37 s/YYY/Access/ 10:33:40 s/YYY/ACCESS/ 10:33:48 marcin: Marcin OOO, ACCESS 10:34:00 .... we specialize in Browser+ DNLA solutions 10:34:02 sakazawa_ has joined #webandauto 10:34:08 s/OOO/Hanclik/ 10:34:15 s/..../.../ 10:34:21 ... from the standardization perspective 10:34:24 bgidon has joined #webandauto 10:34:30 ... I take part in W3 and other SDOs 10:34:33 [ Agenda ] 10:34:52 marcin: Trends and Scenarios (Connectivity, Remote access) 10:35:07 ... HaaP -- the Apps (nBox, REST API + JS Lib v JS APIs, Integration 10:35:10 ... Demonstration 10:35:19 [ Trends of IVI platform evolution ] 10:35:35 dsr has joined #webandauto 10:35:35 marcin: we install application on Mobile phone 10:35:41 ... able to access IVI 10:35:46 ... e.g. using MirrorLink 10:35:50 marie has joined #webandauto 10:35:50 naomi has joined #webandauto 10:35:51 ... use smart phone for communication/commands 10:35:55 [ The standards ] 10:36:03 marcin: W3C, CEA, UPnP, DLNA 10:36:10 hrbysh has joined #webandauto 10:36:15 ... Vehicle API as part of Device APIs 10:36:27 ... - Mobile: OMTP BONDI, WAC, GSMA, Webinos 10:36:32 ... - W3C: DAP, SysApps 10:36:35 harukon has joined #webandauto 10:36:41 ... - Ca. 6 attempts to standardize Calendar API 10:36:48 marcin: many people want to contribute to w3c 10:36:52 ... but standards exist 10:37:21 ... we introduced topic of apis 10:37:31 ... take another example ... a device API 10:37:38 ... I participated in OMTP BONDI 10:37:46 ... there was a standard defined for Calendar 10:37:51 ... it was brought to W3C for standardization 10:38:00 ... people said "we can do this differently" 10:38:06 ... it was brought to WAC, and GSMA 10:38:10 ... it was brought to Webinos 10:38:15 ... it's part of 2 w3c WGs 10:38:23 ... Device APIs and System APIs 10:38:31 ... no standard today after 3-4 years of standardization 10:38:53 ... it's not a technical problem 10:39:00 ... it's a NIH (Not Invented Here) problem 10:39:07 ... this is a work of standardization 10:39:19 ... for TV 10:39:23 timeless has joined #webandauto 10:39:26 ... everyone ended up in Web and TV IG 10:39:31 ... this body can only make Notes 10:39:36 ... work has to be sent to WG 10:39:45 ... W3C works under FRAND principles 10:39:53 ... everything is royalty free 10:40:08 [ Connectivity: UPnP ] 10:40:16 marcin: we have Terminal Mode 10:40:20 ... from MirrorLink 10:40:25 ... it isn't an open standard 10:40:36 [ Remote UI - Remote access ] 10:40:47 scribenick: timeless 10:40:57 marcin: a car, or a device in a car becomes another gadget 10:41:14 ... UPnP defines a network 10:41:23 ... you can access your devices from home 10:41:31 s/devices/resources/ 10:41:36 ... or your car/whichever way 10:41:48 ... W3C has a draft specification of Network Discovery (Opera) 10:41:53 ... to let devices discover eachother 10:42:01 ... we have competing standards for discoverability 10:42:06 ... we have CA 2014 10:42:11 ... we have Web Intents 10:42:15 s/eachother/each other/ 10:42:20 [ HTML5 as a platform ] 10:42:40 naomi_ has joined #webandauto 10:42:41 marcin: we'd like to discuss HTML5 as a Platform (HaaP) 10:42:44 ... for some, HTML5 is