IRC log of webandauto on 2012-11-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:16:27 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-irc
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07:19:38 [marie]
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07:20:16 [Alan]
Meeting: Shift into High Gear on the Web - Day 1
07:20:19 [marie]
marie has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/08/web-and-automotive/agenda.html
07:20:47 [Alan]
Chair: Adam & Dave
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07:37:06 [Alan]
agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/08/web-and-automotive/agenda.html
07:38:08 [marie]
scribe: Bernard
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scribe: Josh_Soref
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scribenick: timeless
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RRSAgent, draft minutes
07:40:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html timeless
07:40:17 [timeless]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:40:20 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
07:40:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html timeless
07:41:13 [timeless]
s/scribe: Bernard//
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RRSAgent, draft minutes
07:41:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html timeless
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present+ Josh_Soref
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present+ Marie-Claire_Forgue
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present+ Dave_Raggett
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present+ Adam_Abramski
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present+ Patrick_Bastard
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present+ Diana_Cheng
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present+ Virginie_Galindo
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present+ Matthias_Goebl
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present+ Andy_Gryc
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present+ Wolfgang_Haberl
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present+ Marcin_Hanclik
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present+ Christopher_Hilton
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present+ Philipp_Hoschka
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present+ Matt_Jones
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present+ Nobuhide_Kotsuka
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present+ Justin_Park
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present+ Roger_C_Lanctot
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present+ Marc_Lapierre
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present+ James_McGinley
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present+ Maximilian_Michel
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present+ Christian_Müller
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present+ Youngsun_Ryu
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present+ Stephan_Steglich
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present+ Shinjiro_Urata
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present+ Ryuji_Wakikawa
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present+ Mikko_Ylinen
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present+ Burkhard_Mayer
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present+ Ingo_Moldenhauer
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present+ Oliver_Novakovic
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present+ Boris_Geller
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present+ Simon_Isenberg
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present+ Uwe_Baumgartenz
08:00:03 [timeless]
topic: Greeting
08:00:17 [timeless]
plh: Good morning
08:00:18 [timeless]
... and welcome
08:00:27 [timeless]
... in front of you, you have a printed sheet
08:00:32 [timeless]
... unfortunately, the times on it are all wrong
08:00:35 [timeless]
... the right program is online
08:00:49 [timeless]
...as some of you may have noticed, it's hard to get online
08:00:56 [timeless]
... please use the WiFi lightly
08:01:03 [timeless]
... capacity is apparently quite limited, we're working on that
08:01:13 [timeless]
... amy is the person to talk to
08:01:17 [timeless]
topic: Introduction
08:01:26 [timeless]
[ Technical issues w/ slide advance ]
08:01:34 [timeless]
plh: why are we here?
08:01:37 [timeless]
... the motivation
08:01:41 [timeless]
... we see the open web platform
08:01:46 [timeless]
... moving from the PC to "devices"
08:01:51 [timeless]
... mobile, television,
08:01:55 [timeless]
... and we think automotive is next
08:02:03 [timeless]
... we thought: let's do a workshop, let's get started
08:02:13 [timeless]
... let's see the needs of the automotive community from the web platform
08:02:28 [timeless]
... we started working with XXX 2 years ago
08:02:33 [timeless]
... with mobile/tv
08:02:42 [timeless]
... we see using web technology as a way to overcome fragmentation
08:02:53 [timeless]
... for mobile, you don't need different code for different targets
08:02:55 [timeless]
... same for TV
08:02:59 [timeless]
... cross OS, cross platform
08:03:12 [timeless]
[ Technical issues - how to slide back? ]
08:03:24 [timeless]
plh: Web tech works cross devices
08:03:37 [timeless]
... you can take something from a Mobile device to a Tablet
08:03:43 [timeless]
... FT moved from Mobile to HTML5
08:03:57 [timeless]
... today you can't get a native app on the apple store, it's just html
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08:04:10 [timeless]
... and they just did a Windows version, they found it easy to port HTML5
08:04:22 [timeless]
... the TV industry is interested in using HTML5 for TVs and tablets
08:04:28 [timeless]
... Web Tech: more developers, cheaper
08:04:43 [timeless]
... looking at your papers, these advantages seem to apply to automotive as well
08:04:48 [timeless]
... About W3C
08:04:58 [timeless]
... our mission is to "Lead the Web to its Full Potential"
08:05:06 [timeless]
... Directed by Web inventor Tim Berners-Lee
08:05:20 [timeless]
... Standards: HTML5, XML, SOAP, RDF, VoiceXML, ...
08:05:34 [timeless]
... Mission: "One Web": Desktop, Mobile, TV, Automotive (?)
08:05:41 [timeless]
... W3C -- C for Consortium
08:05:50 [timeless]
... Whole Web ecosystem: Browsers, IT, ...
08:06:01 [timeless]
... - ever expanding: Mobile companies, TV companies, ...
08:06:09 [timeless]
... New Platform - New Requirements
08:06:20 [timeless]
... Mobile: Smaller screen size, Geolocation, device APIs
08:06:31 [timeless]
... TV: Content protection, Video streaming
08:06:46 [marie]
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08:06:47 [timeless]
... Automotive: Context awareness, Vehicle APIs, Tactile input/output, ...
08:07:01 [timeless]
... Workshop goal: complete list (of requirements) for automotive
08:07:08 [timeless]
... Workshop Working Rules
08:07:10 [timeless]
... Talks
08:07:13 [timeless]
... - 20 minutes talk
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08:07:23 [timeless]
... - 10 minutes for questions
08:07:26 [timeless]
... - mix questions and talk
08:07:36 [timeless]
... Conclusion discussion at end of each day
08:07:41 [timeless]
... Agenda Day 1
08:07:44 [timeless]
... Topics
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http://www.w3.org/2012/08/web-and-automotive/agenda.html
08:07:58 [timeless]
.. - Safety, situation awareness, mitigating driver distraction
08:08:10 [timeless]
... - Multiple displays and integration with phone or tablet(s)
08:08:15 [timeless]
... - Vehicle APIs and Security
08:08:24 [timeless]
... Invited talk: Audi (OEM perspective)
08:08:30 [timeless]
... [... see agenda ]
08:08:34 [timeless]
... Agenda Day 2
08:08:36 [timeless]
... Topics
08:08:50 [timeless]
... - HMI, speech, multimodal, HUD, spatial audio,
08:08:55 [timeless]
... - Cloud-based services
08:08:57 [timeless]
... - M2M
08:09:02 [timeless]
... - Research perspectives
08:09:07 [timeless]
... [... see agenda ]
08:09:13 [timeless]
... Right Participants
08:09:32 [timeless]
... OEMs: Audi, BMW, Honda, Hyundai, Renault, Mitsubishi,, Volkswagen, Toyota
08:09:44 [timeless]
... Operators: KDDI, Vodafone, Orange/France Telecom, ...
08:09:49 [timeless]
... Workshop Goals: Technical
08:09:55 [timeless]
... Vehicle APIs
08:10:00 [timeless]
... Context management
08:10:03 [timeless]
... What is not a good idea?
08:10:06 [timeless]
... What is missing?
08:10:13 [timeless]
... Workshop Goals: Social
08:10:18 [timeless]
... Where is consensus?
08:10:21 [timeless]
... Get to know each other
08:10:24 [timeless]
... Learn from each other
08:10:35 [timeless]
... Thanks to :
08:10:39 [timeless]
... Intel for hosting the workshop
08:10:45 [timeless]
... Our sponsors: QNX and Webinos
08:10:53 [timeless]
... Our programme committee members
08:11:03 [timeless]
... Anouncements
08:11:21 [timeless]
... [Agenda needs to be updated]
08:11:27 [timeless]
... [WiFi - please use sparingly]
08:11:34 [timeless]
... Chairs: Adam and Dave
08:11:40 [timeless]
adam: Practical things
08:11:46 [timeless]
... plh talked about WiFi
08:11:53 [timeless]
... amy is the planner
08:11:57 [timeless]
... if you see her, thank her
08:12:05 [Alan]
s/plh/ph/
08:12:14 [timeless]
... she said folks may be using multiple devices on WiFi
08:12:19 [timeless]
... try not to
08:12:27 [timeless]
... marie said there are people taking photos
08:12:32 [timeless]
s/plh/ph/g
08:12:44 [timeless]
... if you're uncomfortable, please speak to marie, adam, dsr, ph
08:13:07 [timeless]
... at 5:30pm, we had a bit of budget left, so we'll have a reception - down one floor
08:13:17 [timeless]
... maybe in preparation for a nice dinner
08:13:25 [timeless]
... My involvement with this on the W3C side
08:13:35 [timeless]
... I used to work for Sun Microsystems (now Oracle)
08:13:41 [timeless]
... I was involved in Java Community Process
08:13:42 [naomi]
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08:13:54 [timeless]
... I was the product manager for J2ME when it was in its infancy
08:14:03 [timeless]
... I've done JCP, but i've never been involved with W3C
08:14:18 [timeless]
... this is a great opportunity for the automotive industry to have a voice to w3c
08:14:23 [timeless]
... what's unique about automotive
08:14:35 [timeless]
... so automotive UCs are taken care of
08:14:45 [timeless]
... this is your opportunity to tell W3C what is unique about automotive
08:15:10 [timeless]
... marie has a memory stick that we'd like to get all the presentations for this afternoon
08:15:24 [timeless]
... if you could find marie and put your presentations on that stick, it makes things much easier
08:15:37 [timeless]
... W3C would also like to put the presentations on the public web site after the workshop
08:15:46 [timeless]
... I believe it was mentioned in the invitation to the presenters
08:16:06 [timeless]
s/... Anouncements/Topic: Announcements/
08:16:25 [timeless]
s/... [Agenda needs to be updated]/ph: [Agenda needs to be updated]/
08:16:57 [timeless]
Topic: Presentations
08:17:07 [timeless]
ph: If we could switch to the first presentation
08:17:26 [timeless]
... by Audi
08:17:31 [timeless]
[ Audi connect ]
08:17:40 [timeless]
nils: Good morning
08:17:51 [timeless]
... my name is Nils Oppermann, from Audi Electronics Venture
08:18:00 [timeless]
... a 100% daughter company [of Audi]
08:18:05 [timeless]
... we're doing predevelopment
08:18:15 [timeless]
... I've been doing matlab toolchain before 2010
08:18:23 [timeless]
... embedded software driver assistance systems
08:18:27 [timeless]
... since 2010 i've been in the web world
08:18:38 [timeless]
... a feature launched last year at Audi: Online traffic information system
08:18:47 [timeless]
... a web based client which downloads web based traffic information
08:18:54 [timeless]
... larger bandwidth than radio systems
08:19:00 [timeless]
... I brought 3 colleagues
08:19:03 [timeless]
... Matthias
08:19:06 [timeless]
... Thomas
08:19:09 [timeless]
... XXX
08:19:31 [timeless]
... I'll give you an overview of how Audi evolved
08:19:40 [timeless]
... the goal is to integrate the digital world into the car
08:19:47 [timeless]
... so if you enter the car, you don't feel disconnected
08:19:53 [timeless]
... I'm going to talk to infotainment
08:19:58 [timeless]
... and attached devices
08:20:12 [timeless]
[ Audi connect Motivation ]
08:20:35 [timeless]
nils: We didn't know the hotel name; we had to google the location in our smart phone
08:20:39 [timeless]
... to tell the taxi driver
08:20:45 [timeless]
... The information is personalized
08:21:01 [marie]
rrsagent, make log Member
08:21:30 [timeless]
... in the future, the service around the web might integrate the car
08:21:44 [timeless]
... I expect the car to give me the best routes
08:21:52 [timeless]
... and locations around
08:21:55 [marie]
rrsagent, make log Public
08:22:16 [timeless]
[ Audi connect - Key requirements ]
08:22:26 [timeless]
nils: Usability & Safety
08:22:40 [timeless]
... driver distraction / joy of use / Daily drive
08:22:49 [timeless]
... Security & Privacy
08:22:54 [timeless]
... User data / Accounting
08:23:01 [timeless]
... Cost & Business Model
08:23:08 [timeless]
... Development / Maintenance
08:23:17 [timeless]
nils: Our services somehow need to be voice activated
08:23:22 [timeless]
... and deliver voice feedback
08:23:29 [timeless]
... and need to avoid driver distraction
08:23:36 [timeless]
... functions we want to do
08:23:47 [timeless]
... ... need sort of integrated apps
08:23:54 [timeless]
... a google maps/earth client
08:24:02 [timeless]
... that integrates with the entertainment system
08:24:20 [timeless]
... If Usability doesn't kill the UC, Security probably does
08:24:30 [timeless]
... User data needs to be safe+secure -- transparent to the user
08:24:35 [timeless]
... what data is used, how it is used
08:24:41 [timeless]
... the traffic information we use
08:25:08 [timeless]
... it downloads information, but also uploads anonymized information
08:25:17 [timeless]
... we authenticate our vehicles, we authenticate our users
08:25:22 [timeless]
... we will have multi user systems
08:25:28 [timeless]
... e.g. the rental car UC
08:25:34 [timeless]
... we don't want the next user to have your credentials
08:25:41 [timeless]
... Facebook accounts, etc.
08:25:51 [timeless]
... Cost / Business model, it's still unclear
08:25:54 [timeless]
... we're a really small platform
08:26:06 [timeless]
... we're competing w/ Consumer Electronics companies who launch quarterly
08:26:11 [timeless]
... we have to support devices for a long time
08:26:20 [timeless]
... the Android ecosystem has year old devices that don't get updates
08:26:28 [timeless]
... our vehicles from production - produced 7 years
08:26:34 [timeless]
... for another 7 years, we have to provide services
08:26:46 [timeless]
... at least if they have paid for that [warranty/etc.]
08:26:52 [timeless]
... last point
08:27:01 [timeless]
... to be competitive, and offer unique features
08:27:06 [timeless]
... in the vehicle-web world
08:27:11 [timeless]
... we have to rely on established technology
08:27:24 [timeless]
... the entertainment system today is built w/ similar technology as smart phones
08:27:30 [timeless]
... ARM, QNX/Linux
08:27:33 [timeless]
... high use of Java
08:27:50 [timeless]
... communicating with the outside we use W3C HTML/XML/HTTP
08:27:54 [timeless]
... APIs are a big issue
08:28:00 [timeless]
... if a service has to run for 15 years
08:28:08 [timeless]
... we have to plan and modularize our apis
08:28:20 [timeless]
[ Audi connect - General architecture ]
08:28:24 [timeless]
nils: left to right
08:28:34 [timeless]
... Vehicle client (Services, UMTS module, SIM)
08:28:43 [timeless]
... Protocol stack (XML, HTTP, TCP/IP)
08:28:55 [timeless]
... Audi Backend (Services, Authentication, App. Management, Accounting)
08:29:02 [timeless]
... Content Provider (Services, APIs)
08:29:08 [timeless]
nils: Today we use customer SIM card
08:29:16 [timeless]
... in the future it may be an MTM SIM
08:29:31 [timeless]
... for backend interfaces, we've used XML
08:29:41 [timeless]
... it allows for a nice way to structure interfaces
08:29:52 [timeless]
... and provides a way to do them in a tools supported way on the backend
08:30:15 [timeless]
... App. Management: which vehicle receives which version of which service
08:30:34 [timeless]
... we have to control which users receive which version of data/content apis
08:30:49 [timeless]
... we rely on third parties to provide us apis
08:30:59 [timeless]
... at a considerable cost today - because we're a small platform
08:31:15 [timeless]
... standardization will enable automotive industry to impact providers and reduce cost
08:31:25 [timeless]
[ Audi connect - Since 2010 models: 1st generation services ]
08:31:42 [timeless]
nils: Tightly coupled w/ native user interface, dependent on vehicle life-cycle
08:32:00 [timeless]
... today it's flashed, and might receive an (one) update
08:32:18 [timeless]
... You don't notice that it's web, except branding ... e.g. Google POI Voice search
08:32:41 [timeless]
... we also have browser baed online services
08:32:46 [timeless]
s/baed/based/
08:32:54 [timeless]
.... Audi-styled websites, unpersonalized, location-based
08:33:00 [timeless]
... everyone gets the same content
08:33:05 [timeless]
s/..../.../
08:33:19 [timeless]
... integrated with system so you could call from the car
08:33:30 [timeless]
... Browser Look and Feel drawbacks
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08:34:01 [timeless]
[ Audi connect - Today: 2st generation services ]
08:34:11 [timeless]
nils: we still do integrated online services
08:34:20 [timeless]
... tightly coupled w/ native user interface
08:34:32 [timeless]
... SMS dictation/picture destinations - in the new A3
08:34:55 [timeless]
... we use native widget screens which we parametrize to dynamic content
08:35:03 [timeless]
... Remote-HMI
08:35:22 [timeless]
s/... Remote-HMI//
08:35:41 [timeless]
s/we/... Remote-HMI - we/
08:35:48 [timeless]
... Facebook, twitter ...
08:35:54 [timeless]
[ Audi connect - Today: 2st generation services ]
08:36:00 [timeless]
nils: Remote-HMI key facts
08:36:06 [timeless]
... dynamic use of native user interface
08:36:22 [timeless]
.... native widgets, animated transitions, anchors into native HMI dialogs
08:36:32 [timeless]
... Audi MMI Touch-Wheel & Speech dialogue system integration
08:36:43 [timeless]
... we don't have a Touch screen... our friends at YY do
08:37:01 [timeless]
... Strong re-use of native user interface
08:37:05 [timeless]
... we have limited space to test
08:37:15 [timeless]
... we know how our native widgets behave regarding driver distraction
08:37:21 [timeless]
... we have ergonomics
08:37:25 [timeless]
... studies
08:37:26 [marie]
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08:37:49 [timeless]
... by reusing these for our web services we guarantee web services don't distract the driver more than a normal element
08:37:54 [timeless]
... we have an integrated web browser
08:37:58 [timeless]
... to display general web content
08:38:07 [timeless]
... embedded in remote-HMI framework
08:38:14 [timeless]
... if a detail view of a POI service
08:38:19 [timeless]
... wanted to display customer reviewws
08:38:22 [timeless]
s/wws/ws/
08:38:28 [timeless]
... we could still switch to an HTML browser based UI
08:38:53 [timeless]
... same language for mobile device and app integration
08:38:57 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft mintues
08:38:57 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft mintues', timeless. Try /msg RRSAgent help
08:39:02 [timeless]
s/RRSAgent, draft mintues//
08:39:05 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:39:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html timeless
08:39:19 [timeless]
... built on W3C web standard SCXML
08:39:35 [timeless]
... "Why do we do this instead of HTML?"
08:39:45 [timeless]
... we describe look and feel transitions
08:39:55 [timeless]
[ this sounds like WML ]
08:40:01 [timeless]
nils: we do support html
08:40:07 [timeless]
... and once we solve the issues
08:40:17 [timeless]
... security, distraction, ...
08:40:30 [timeless]
... [we'll transition to html]
08:40:46 [timeless]
[ Audi connect - Outlook: 3rd generation services ]
08:40:55 [timeless]
nils: issues regarding mobile device support
08:41:04 [timeless]
... HTML5 support in embedded browser
08:41:24 [timeless]
... performance might be an issue
08:41:34 [timeless]
... Vehicle data abstraction (API)
08:41:44 [timeless]
... we need an api to the functionality of the infotainment system
08:42:01 [timeless]
... We're looking into JavaScript/WebGL for high performance rendering of remote content
08:42:36 [timeless]
... A service provider which implements things needs something that works over many vehicles
08:42:44 [timeless]
... even multiple manufacturers
08:42:57 [bgidon]
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08:42:59 [timeless]
... Our application looks 90% like a web application
08:43:04 [timeless]
... tooling is a big issue
08:43:09 [timeless]
... integrated tooling for the developer
08:43:16 [timeless]
... so he can see in short iterations what he's doing
08:43:27 [timeless]
... if the application is hosted on a smart phone/back-end system
08:43:35 [timeless]
... we need an abstraction of the platform for a developer
08:43:39 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:43:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html timeless
08:43:49 [timeless]
... to achieve time to market efficiency
08:44:02 [timeless]
... cheaper time to market/developers
08:44:09 [timeless]
... we still need to guarantee quality
08:44:18 [timeless]
[ Audi connect - Summary ]
08:44:27 [timeless]
nils: biggest issue is standardized tooling
08:44:53 [timeless]
... there's a conflict
08:44:59 [timeless]
... between up-to-date
08:45:05 [timeless]
... and roaming
08:45:20 [timeless]
... if the web content percentage increases
08:45:41 [timeless]
... we have to ensure product works where-ever user goes
08:45:48 [timeless]
... have to enable testing
08:45:52 [timeless]
... "iPhone issue"
08:46:02 [timeless]
... if you make something for "iPhone" and they change the connector
08:46:08 [timeless]
... you're left standing there
08:46:23 [timeless]
... you're left explaining to your customers why you have to use old iPhones in your latest and greated cars
08:46:32 [timeless]
s/greated/greatest/
08:46:46 [timeless]
... Mobile web technologies being platform independent
08:47:03 [timeless]
... offers the opportunity to achieve this over several vehicles
08:47:38 [timeless]
Josh_Soref: Hi, I'm Josh Soref, from RIM, your scribe for today
08:47:42 [timeless]
... please introduce yourself
08:47:47 [timeless]
... and speak loudly
08:47:49 [timeless]
[ Applause ]
08:47:57 [timeless]
ph: you said you wanted to use APIs and reduce costs
08:48:01 [timeless]
... what did you mean?
08:48:06 [timeless]
nils: it's a small platform
08:48:14 [timeless]
... we're still involved on our side
08:48:20 [timeless]
... the bottleneck is development resources
08:48:30 [timeless]
... we don't have a standardized way to develop web services
08:48:36 [timeless]
... the experiences that content providers
08:48:41 [timeless]
... once they hear a big name
08:48:49 [timeless]
... "audi is the big name of vehicles"
08:48:58 [timeless]
... content providers think they can send them big bills
08:49:04 [timeless]
... with a standardized way to develop
08:49:09 [timeless]
... we can reduce the cost
08:49:15 [timeless]
... with Android, I have 100 apps installed
08:49:19 [timeless]
... I've paid for maybe 1
08:49:30 [timeless]
... If you want Weather for your Car, you have to pay a lot
08:49:36 [timeless]
... it's a small market, maybe growing
08:49:46 [timeless]
... but compared to daily activations of Android, we're very small
08:49:49 [timeless]
... we can't afford
08:49:57 [timeless]
... we don't have the market throughput of Android/Google
08:50:09 [timeless]
... on an economic basis, we have to work out how to pay for these services+content
08:50:21 [timeless]
sakawa: Sakawa, KDDI
08:50:26 [timeless]
... question about interoperability
08:50:29 [kaz]
s/sakawa/sakazawa/
08:50:30 [timeless]
... you mentioned it's important
08:50:35 [kaz]
s/Sakawa/Sakazawa/
08:50:37 [timeless]
... how do you differentiate your service
08:50:53 [timeless]
... Head Unit can be replaced
08:51:05 [timeless]
... how do you differentiate your service/equipment?
08:51:13 [timeless]
nils: separating the concerns from application logic from UA
08:51:21 [timeless]
... which the web does using Style Sheets/similar tech
08:51:28 [timeless]
... if you do a Video based solution
08:51:34 [timeless]
... you have to make it look like your HMI
08:51:41 [timeless]
... you have to test it -- very difficult
08:52:05 [timeless]
maximilian: Maximilian, BMW
08:52:16 [timeless]
... in the latest generation, the application logic is running in the backend servers?
08:52:20 [timeless]
nils: basically, yes
08:52:22 [timeless]
... it's a web site
08:52:30 [timeless]
... for performance+security, we use very little client logic
08:52:35 [timeless]
ph: one last question
08:52:42 [timeless]
qqq: QQQ
08:52:55 [timeless]
... Audi is connecting user data?
08:53:01 [timeless]
... for potential services
08:53:11 [timeless]
nils: there are predevelopment activities
08:53:17 [timeless]
... "customer is king - as we say in Germany"
08:53:26 [timeless]
... we don't want him to have security/privacy concerns
08:53:34 [timeless]
... we don't want to ruin our reputation
08:53:45 [timeless]
... for traffic, we separate the data
08:54:02 [timeless]
... the traffic system gets the data about cars in general w/o information about which
08:54:07 [naomi]
s/qqq: QQQ/WooChul: Jung Woo Chul, Hundai/
08:54:18 [timeless]
... the car gets traffic, but we don't get information about their location
08:54:32 [timeless]
WooChul: i think the OEM should know about the customers
08:55:40 [marie]
Kaz Ashimura, W3C
08:56:26 [timeless]
... we could figure out which softkey is used
08:56:26 [timeless]
kaz: Kaz, W3C
08:56:26 [timeless]
... activity lead for Multimodal WG
08:56:26 [timeless]
... interested in your slides on SCXML
08:56:26 [timeless]
... do you think there's the possibility to use the MM architecture
08:56:27 [timeless]
... for server-client
08:58:02 [kaz]
s/qqq/Woochul/
08:58:12 [kaz]
s/QQQ/Hyundai/
08:58:18 [timeless_scribe]
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08:58:27 [timeless_scribe]
topic: HTML5 standardization in auto
08:58:33 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: hello
08:58:47 [timeless_scribe]
i/topic:/scribenick: timeless_scribe/
08:58:59 [timeless_scribe]
... Andy Gryc, QNX
08:59:08 [timeless_scribe]
... Why HTML5 for the car?
08:59:12 [timeless_scribe]
... What can QNX contribute?
08:59:18 [timeless_scribe]
... Where should W3C go?
08:59:24 [timeless_scribe]
[ Consumer vs OEM lifecyle ]
08:59:34 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: my colleague from Audi spoke about this
08:59:39 [timeless_scribe]
... 1 year Android life cycle.
08:59:43 [timeless_scribe]
... 7+7 for Vehicle
08:59:43 [kaz]
s/MM architecture/MMI architecture/
08:59:56 [timeless_scribe]
... this is the key thing that drives wanting to use HTML5
09:00:05 [timeless_scribe]
... if you use HTML5, you aren't reinventing the wheel
09:00:19 [timeless_scribe]
... that comes along with Quality and Process
09:00:25 [timeless_scribe]
... that neils mentioned
09:00:30 [timeless_scribe]
s/neils/niels/
09:00:36 [kaz]
s/for server-client/and integrate the 2nd generation Remote-HMI approach and the 3rd generation JavaScript approach?/
09:00:52 [timeless_scribe]
[ Increasing cconsumer demand ]
09:01:04 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: consumers say they spent $XXXXX for a car
09:01:10 [timeless_scribe]
... they expect more from it than from their phone
09:01:13 [kaz]
i/topic: HTML5 standardization in auto/nils: there is a possibility/
09:01:17 [timeless_scribe]
... personalizing experience
09:01:33 [timeless_scribe]
... pick how the car looks
09:01:37 [timeless_scribe]
... what the car does
09:01:40 [timeless_scribe]
... how the car behaves
09:01:46 [timeless_scribe]
[ HTML5 isa natural choice ]
09:01:54 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: you've got a big echosystem of devleopers, tools
09:01:56 [timeless_scribe]
s/isa/is a/
09:02:02 [timeless_scribe]
... that's something car makers don't get easily
09:02:10 [timeless_scribe]
... for a car maker to traditionally
09:02:23 [timeless_scribe]
... they have to find someone, then work with them
09:02:26 [timeless_scribe]
... how the modules work together
09:02:32 [timeless_scribe]
... explain the requirements
09:02:49 [timeless_scribe]
... if the company is using the same platform, that simplifies things
09:02:55 [timeless_scribe]
... Standards is about avoiding Vendor lock in
09:03:09 [timeless_scribe]
... people say "you guys are building that, why would you want to avoid Lock in?"
09:03:16 [timeless_scribe]
... at QNX, we've been doing a lot around standards
09:03:24 [timeless_scribe]
... companies can differentiate on QoI
09:03:34 [timeless_scribe]
... our ability to support POSIX, Eclipse, ...
09:03:43 [timeless_scribe]
... HTML5 is a way to allow that interoperability
09:03:53 [timeless_scribe]
... Flexibility is something that HTML5 really provides
09:04:11 [timeless_scribe]
... in nils's example, the consumer didn't know which was native
09:04:17 [timeless_scribe]
... things coming in from mobile, cloud, embedded
09:04:23 [timeless_scribe]
... lets you deploy things differently
09:04:31 [timeless_scribe]
... not everything needs to be baked into the car when it ships
09:04:33 [timeless_scribe]
... Branding
09:04:38 [timeless_scribe]
... this is something that CSS provides
09:04:44 [timeless_scribe]
... every car maker wants to have brnading
09:04:50 [timeless_scribe]
... from a developer's PoV
09:04:54 [naomi]
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09:04:59 [timeless_scribe]
... without standards
09:05:00 [Alan]
s/brnading/branding/
09:05:17 [timeless_scribe]
... each vendor would build a different app for each manufacturer
09:05:23 [timeless_scribe]
... but CSS allows them to make one app
09:05:27 [timeless_scribe]
... Lifespan
09:05:34 [timeless_scribe]
... I expect HTML5 to be around for a long time
09:05:52 [timeless_scribe]
... Time to market... HTML5 has this, other things do too, but HTML5 really does this
09:06:02 [timeless_scribe]
... "cheap engineers", well HTML5 developers aren't all cheap
09:06:15 [timeless_scribe]
... they're using technology which provides a lot more capability built in
09:06:21 [timeless_scribe]
... which goes to Powerful
09:06:25 [timeless_scribe]
... finally, Cross-platform
09:06:34 [timeless_scribe]
... the ability to take apps from mobile and deploy them to the phone and car
09:06:42 [timeless_scribe]
... HTML5 is supported across every model of phone
09:06:51 [timeless_scribe]
... iPhone, Android, Windows, BlackBerry
09:06:55 [timeless_scribe]
... easier transition
09:06:57 [timeless_scribe]
[ What? ]
09:07:02 [timeless_scribe]
[ QNX in automotive ]
09:07:12 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: a bunch of logos
09:07:19 [timeless_scribe]
[ QNX CAR 2 applicaiton platform ]
09:07:24 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: BB10 software stack
09:07:31 [timeless_scribe]
... taking what we've done for PlayBook and BB10
09:07:39 [timeless_scribe]
... and then adding on what Automotive needs
09:07:44 [timeless_scribe]
... I can show this at our demo booth
09:07:57 [timeless_scribe]
... it's adding an HTML5 environment to an infotainment stack
09:08:09 [timeless_scribe]
... we're not saying you should build it with html5
09:08:14 [timeless_scribe]
... but we're saying it's powerful enough to do it
09:08:19 [timeless_scribe]
... for actual implementation
09:08:27 [harukon]
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09:08:30 [timeless_scribe]
... car makers could say they'll do it with Electropic Eye
09:08:33 [timeless_scribe]
... or Qt
09:08:47 [timeless_scribe]
... But we want to show that the outside world content can be HTML5 driven
09:08:58 [timeless_scribe]
[ QNX CAR 2 feature hightlights ]
09:09:05 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: a key thing to understand
09:09:12 [timeless_scribe]
... where standardization will happen in W3C
09:09:16 [marie]
s/gryc/andy gryc
09:09:29 [timeless_scribe]
s/andy gryc/gryc/
09:09:58 [timeless_scribe]
... things will be below the standardization
09:10:06 [timeless_scribe]
[ QNX CAR 2 Applications - Sample HMI Designs ]
09:10:13 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: these are done in HTML5
09:10:25 [timeless_scribe]
... to show we've been able to duplicate most of the features
09:10:28 [timeless_scribe]
... using standards
09:10:35 [timeless_scribe]
... even coverflow can be done in HTML5
09:10:40 [timeless_scribe]
[ QNX CAR HTML5 framework ]
09:10:53 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: HTML5 environment w/ front-end + apps
09:11:00 [timeless_scribe]
... allows entire Ui to be easily reskinned
09:11:05 [timeless_scribe]
... launcher
09:11:12 [timeless_scribe]
... We use Sencha Touch Mobile and jQuery
09:11:16 [timeless_scribe]
... a mix for widget sets
09:11:25 [timeless_scribe]
... we created our own QNX-designed infotainment skin
09:11:32 [timeless_scribe]
... App store integration
09:11:44 [timeless_scribe]
... we have designed a way to download application bundles
09:11:49 [timeless_scribe]
... and I want to talk about that
09:11:55 [timeless_scribe]
[ HTML5 app packaging ]
09:12:03 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: most developers use a Text Editor
09:12:09 [timeless_scribe]
... along with the web browser and Web Inspect
09:12:17 [timeless_scribe]
... you create aspects in one place
09:12:26 [timeless_scribe]
... HTML5, CSS, JS, Images, Icons
09:12:35 [timeless_scribe]
... from packaging perspective, you need to take those objects and deploy them
09:12:46 [timeless_scribe]
... for packaging, we use a derivative of WebWorks
09:12:49 [timeless_scribe]
... it's on GitHub
09:12:57 [timeless_scribe]
... and will be contributed to Apache Cordova
09:13:05 [timeless_scribe]
... i'm not sure how much of that is Standards org or Open Source
09:13:24 [timeless_scribe]
... but if you want to bring applications between car makers, you'll need some sort of standard there
09:13:42 [timeless_scribe]
... How do you guarantee it doesn't access certain features of the vehicle you don't want it to
09:14:02 [timeless_scribe]
... how does an OEM allow the OEM to deploy certain features but not allow other apps to access them
09:14:05 [timeless_scribe]
... we have a manifest
09:14:08 [timeless_scribe]
... which is signed
09:14:17 [timeless_scribe]
... and have something which checks that
09:14:20 [timeless_scribe]
... there's some debate
09:14:29 [timeless_scribe]
... different capabilities to OEM/general dev
09:14:35 [timeless_scribe]
... this "breaks the standard"
09:14:51 [timeless_scribe]
... there will need to be some greater level of capability for OEM sanctioned apps than general apps
09:14:57 [timeless_scribe]
[ Ripple for QNX CAR ]
09:15:06 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: Ripple is RIM's emulator for doing HTML5
09:15:12 [timeless_scribe]
... generally for phone
09:15:17 [timeless_scribe]
... but we've adapted this for CAR
09:15:24 [timeless_scribe]
... just like Ripple is part of GitHub
09:15:33 [timeless_scribe]
... our intent is to release [Ripple CAR] as well
09:15:38 [timeless_scribe]
... it provides the underlying pieces
09:15:45 [timeless_scribe]
... to allow you to mimic the underlying vehicle bus
09:15:49 [timeless]
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09:15:50 [timeless_scribe]
... HVAC, multimedia
09:15:56 [timeless_scribe]
... enough capability to test it
09:15:59 [timeless_scribe]
... without having a car
09:16:10 [timeless_scribe]
... average developers need a way to develop
09:16:15 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref has joined #webandauto
09:16:17 [timeless_scribe]
... they can't need to buy panda boards
09:16:20 [timeless_scribe]
... and custom head units
09:16:33 [timeless_scribe]
... they need a way to test their app before giving it to an OEM
09:16:42 [timeless_scribe]
... we see the OEM as a broker
09:16:54 [timeless_scribe]
... but this gives developers the way to create Apps without heavy overhead
09:17:11 [timeless_scribe]
[ QNX CAR and native access ]
09:17:18 [timeless_scribe]
s/[ QNX/[ QNX/
09:17:25 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: providing access to vehicle bus
09:17:37 [timeless_scribe]
... we think standardizing on Apple related things to W3C standard is probably not appropriate
09:17:46 [timeless_scribe]
... but allowing a way to control multimedia probably is
09:17:53 [timeless_scribe]
... but adding things underneath for Apple/DLNA
09:18:03 [timeless_scribe]
[ JavaScript access to platform services ]
09:18:10 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: we have PPS, Persistent-Publish Subscribe
09:18:22 [timeless_scribe]
... in the HTML5 layer, we wrap those instances with a JS class
09:18:41 [timeless_scribe]
... which lets an app interact with those apis without caring about PPS
09:18:50 [timeless_scribe]
... you could replace PPS with DBUS and this picture would be the same
09:19:04 [timeless_scribe]
... so applications built for a car could rely on this
09:19:11 [timeless_scribe]
[ Example JavaScript components ]
09:19:17 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: Framework classes
09:19:23 [timeless_scribe]
... get messages from car
09:19:30 [timeless_scribe]
... control settings / theming
09:19:39 [timeless_scribe]
... provide access (Bluetooth, Audio Player, Phone)
09:19:48 [timeless_scribe]
[ Example audioplayer methods ]
09:19:57 [timeless_scribe]
... setTrackSession(config, index)
09:19:59 [timeless_scribe]
... play()
09:20:03 [timeless_scribe]
... playAt(index)
09:20:04 [timeless_scribe]
... ...
09:20:17 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: the Implementation from the JS side is just application Look and Feel
09:20:22 [timeless_scribe]
... no business logic, just presentation
09:20:29 [timeless_scribe]
[ Needed areas of W3C focus ]
09:20:35 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: 1. Application packaging
09:20:43 [timeless_scribe]
... ability to move app develpoment across platforms
09:20:53 [timeless_scribe]
... not sure if Cordova is this
09:20:57 [timeless_scribe]
... it's an Open Source thing
09:21:04 [timeless_scribe]
... maybe packaging isn't necessarily where W3C focuses
09:21:11 [timeless_scribe]
ph: we do have something on Packaging
09:21:21 [timeless_scribe]
... it's called Widgets
09:21:27 [timeless_scribe]
... I believe Cordova is based on it
09:21:34 [timeless_scribe]
... the issue is that Browser people don't like it
09:21:35 [Zakim]
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09:21:38 [timeless_scribe]
... there's work on it
09:21:49 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: OT: If there's an industry adopted thing
09:21:53 [timeless_scribe]
... if you created a standard
09:22:01 [timeless_scribe]
... and browser people went with JSON
09:22:16 [timeless_scribe]
ph: we have a Recommendation, it's not a standard
09:22:19 [timeless_scribe]
... we're still looking at it
09:22:23 [timeless_scribe]
... if there's more push...
09:22:27 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: excellent
09:22:37 [timeless_scribe]
[ Needed areas of W3C focus ]
09:22:41 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: 2. Native access APIs
09:22:50 [timeless_scribe]
... the intent of the browser is to protect the underlying system
09:23:13 [timeless_scribe]
... that gives a level of consistency for app developers
09:23:44 [timeless_scribe]
... need to allow ability to adapt to what's present
09:23:53 [timeless_scribe]
[ Needed areas of W3C focus ]
09:24:00 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: 3. Mobile + car integration
09:24:09 [timeless_scribe]
... for ability to run/host on mobile and display in car
09:24:15 [timeless_scribe]
... MirrorLink / iPod out
09:24:27 [naomi]
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09:24:29 [timeless_scribe]
... i think having a server on the phone
09:24:34 [timeless_scribe]
... and html application running in the car
09:24:46 [timeless_scribe]
... CCC has had proposals to go from VNC protocol to HTML5 based
09:24:51 [timeless_scribe]
... but it could be addressed by standardization
09:24:56 [timeless_scribe]
[ Needed areas of W3C focus ]
09:25:03 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: 4. Distraction prevention and OEM skinning
09:25:09 [timeless_scribe]
... if you want to have an application
09:25:14 [timeless_scribe]
... unless you want to target just one OEM
09:25:18 [timeless_scribe]
... certainly OEMs want that
09:25:27 [timeless_scribe]
... but developers want to target multiple platforms
09:25:34 [timeless_scribe]
... the best way is to reskin with CSS
09:25:39 [timeless_scribe]
... need a consistent way to reskin
09:26:07 [timeless_scribe]
... mobile developers as a whole don't understand Car / Driver Distraction
09:26:13 [timeless_scribe]
... part is education
09:26:20 [timeless_scribe]
... part is addressable by providing templates
09:26:30 [timeless_scribe]
... List picking
09:26:54 [timeless_scribe]
... gives ability for OEMs to differentiate with CSS
09:26:55 [timeless_scribe]
[ Needed areas of W3C focus ]
09:27:01 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: 5. App devleopment guidelines
09:27:06 [timeless_scribe]
... most developers i've spoken with
09:27:11 [timeless_scribe]
... "i've got this great idea"
09:27:20 [timeless_scribe]
... "why don't i take this video recording app and bring it in the car"
09:27:27 [timeless_scribe]
... -- yeah, i don't think that's appropriate
09:27:32 [timeless_scribe]
... Guidelines
09:27:37 [timeless_scribe]
... I see this as a Tech Note / Whitepaper
09:27:54 [timeless_scribe]
... HTML5 is opening that door a crack
09:28:07 [timeless_scribe]
... I think we should explain why we're opening that door a crack and not swinging it wide open
09:28:10 [timeless_scribe]
[ Applause ]
09:28:14 [timeless_scribe]
ph: time for one question
09:28:28 [timeless_scribe]
takashi: Tatzaki Takashi, Mitsubish
09:28:34 [kaz]
s/takashi/takahashi/
09:28:41 [timeless_scribe]
... we have been trying to propose W3C widgets for OEMS
09:28:44 [kaz]
s/Takashi/Takahashi/
09:28:45 [timeless_scribe]
s/OEMS/OEMs/
09:28:48 [timeless_scribe]
... so far, they're not welcomed
09:28:58 [kaz]
s/Mitsubish/Mitsubishi/
09:29:05 [timeless_scribe]
... i'd like to know your opinion about packages
09:29:12 [timeless_scribe]
... some seem to prefer online without installation
09:29:16 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: that's a good question
09:29:33 [timeless_scribe]
... packaging is ... giving the car maker the flexibility to run that app embedded v. cloud
09:29:43 [timeless_scribe]
... we don't have ubiquitous coverage/guaranteed connectivity
09:29:51 [timeless_scribe]
... may be tethered, may run out of power
09:30:04 [timeless_scribe]
... bringing flexibility to bring app from cloud to running on the head unit
09:30:08 [timeless_scribe]
... that's where packaging comes in
09:30:15 [timeless_scribe]
... and also for an app store context
09:30:26 [timeless_scribe]
... if you don't want all apps to be tied to some mobile device strategy
09:30:34 [timeless_scribe]
... an app store in the car needs to deal w/ packaging
09:30:38 [timeless_scribe]
... where's the store, ...
09:30:44 [timeless_scribe]
takahashi: thank you
09:30:52 [timeless_scribe]
Topic: Next Speaker
09:30:55 [timeless_scribe]
ph: next speaker
09:31:02 [timeless_scribe]
Topic: RRR
09:31:16 [timeless_scribe]
tiger: YYY, OOO from Harman
09:31:28 [timeless_scribe]
... we deliver head units
09:31:31 [timeless_scribe]
... for a wide range of cars
09:31:41 [kaz]
s/RRR/Harman/
09:31:41 [timeless_scribe]
... from high class through middle to low end cars
09:31:53 [timeless_scribe]
... handsfree phone, bluetooth, wifi
09:32:01 [timeless_scribe]
... UPnP, MirrorLink
09:32:07 [timeless_scribe]
... PIM / Calendar ... access to exchange/mail
09:32:11 [timeless_scribe]
... Contacts/Notes/Email
09:32:20 [dcheng3]
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09:32:29 [timeless_scribe]
... w/ UMTS we have LTE demos available
09:32:41 [timeless_scribe]
... we're responsible for bringing browser tech into the car for headunits from Harman
09:32:47 [timeless_scribe]
... that's the one side of connectivity
09:33:03 [timeless_scribe]
... other side is interface to car itself
09:33:06 [timeless_scribe]
... entertainment
09:33:16 [timeless_scribe]
... comfort systems (position)
09:33:21 [timeless_scribe]
... climate control, etc.
09:33:43 [timeless_scribe]
... Harman has already introduced an IDL called "Franka"
09:33:45 [timeless_scribe]
... in the area of "Genivi"
09:33:55 [timeless_scribe]
... those interfaces in the car between car components
09:33:59 [timeless_scribe]
... it's an Open Source project
09:34:03 [kaz]
s/tiger/steiger/
09:34:04 [timeless_scribe]
... it will be used in Genivi
09:34:17 [timeless_scribe]
... with those interfaces, we come to the browser side
09:34:20 [timeless_scribe]
... we played around with it
09:34:28 [kaz]
s/YYY, OOO/Roman Steiger/
09:34:36 [timeless_scribe]
... how could we fit browser interfaces, maybe WebIDL with car interfaces
09:34:49 [timeless_scribe]
... what we'd like to contribute in that area
09:34:56 [timeless_scribe]
... is standardized interfaces in the browser
09:35:04 [timeless_scribe]
... to get access to the interfaces in the car/head-unit
09:35:10 [timeless_scribe]
... from that point of view
09:35:20 [kaz]
s/Roman Steiger/Roman Steiger, Peter Gaus/
09:35:24 [timeless_scribe]
... it'd be essential for applications written in HTML/JS to provide such interfaces in a standardized form
09:35:29 [timeless_scribe]
... for third party applications
09:35:36 [timeless_scribe]
... or applications developed for car manufacturers
09:35:49 [timeless_scribe]
... if we have these standardized interfaces
09:35:52 [harukon]
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09:36:00 [timeless_scribe]
... then it's much easier to port these applicationss
09:36:12 [timeless_scribe]
... and for these applications to control the car
09:36:25 [timeless_scribe]
... if we do this standardization as we have in Genivi
09:36:35 [timeless_scribe]
... then it's easier to get acceptance
09:36:38 [timeless_scribe]
... Harman
09:37:02 [timeless_scribe]
... it would be good to applications portable, not just to different cars, customized by style sheets
09:37:16 [timeless_scribe]
... but to get an application that does nothing else than provide functionality to control Radio/Heating
09:37:20 [timeless_scribe]
... but where does it run?
09:37:21 [timeless_scribe]
... in the car?
09:37:28 [timeless_scribe]
... i.e. in the HMI
09:37:42 [timeless_scribe]
... Where does the browser run? in the browser? in the mobile phone? in a tablet?
09:37:59 [timeless_scribe]
... standardized interface to use apps, not just in the car, but also in Android phone/Tablet
09:38:10 [timeless_scribe]
... so it'd be possible to have a remote control using the same control logic
09:38:29 [timeless_scribe]
... Look and Feel may differ, but control logic would be the same
09:38:37 [timeless_scribe]
... so, it should be possible that these interfaces
09:39:02 [timeless_scribe]
... could be satisfied by browser in different ways
09:39:10 [timeless_scribe]
... for HMI host, manufacturer provides one way
09:39:21 [timeless_scribe]
.. if browser is in mobile device, how to get access to real components in car?
09:39:35 [timeless_scribe]
s/../... /
09:39:40 [pgraff]
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09:39:45 [timeless_scribe]
... a way to overload, implement as plugin/...
09:39:53 [timeless_scribe]
... a way to have access everywhere
09:40:16 [timeless_scribe]
pgaus: for guys in this room
09:40:32 [timeless_scribe]
... to have a way to provide feedback on interface transformation
09:40:40 [timeless_scribe]
... everyone in this room already has interface definitions
09:40:53 [harukon]
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09:40:59 [timeless_scribe]
... I think it'd be good to be able to transform them into WebIDL
09:41:00 [timeless_scribe]
... as gryc said
09:41:08 [timeless_scribe]
... and we need security as niels said
09:41:11 [timeless_scribe]
steiger: thank you
09:41:14 [timeless_scribe]
[ Applause ]
09:41:17 [timeless_scribe]
ph: any questions?
09:41:31 [timeless_scribe]
... and it'd be good to have a packaging mechanism
09:41:33 [timeless_scribe]
... you want to translate existing APIs to WebIDL?
09:41:40 [timeless_scribe]
... do you want to keep APIs as is? or standardize?
09:41:51 [timeless_scribe]
... two steps, find a mapping, and then standardize api?
09:41:53 [timeless_scribe]
... or go straight?
09:41:57 [timeless_scribe]
steiger: both is possible
09:42:04 [timeless_scribe]
... the interfaces between car components
09:42:07 [timeless_scribe]
... may be different
09:42:13 [timeless_scribe]
... depends on OEM/head-unit
09:42:34 [timeless_scribe]
... there might be a chance to have a better standardized interface between car components than what we have now
09:42:42 [timeless_scribe]
... looking forward w/ Genivi
09:42:48 [timeless_scribe]
... I could imagine second step being first
09:43:06 [timeless_scribe]
... it'd be much easier to have standarized api for browsers
09:43:14 [timeless_scribe]
... but if we get standard api specification for browser
09:43:23 [timeless_scribe]
... we could get Adaptation layers for cars
09:43:29 [timeless_scribe]
ph: ok, interesting.
09:43:36 [timeless_scribe]
... other questions... to Harman, or general comments?
09:43:41 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: one observation
09:43:56 [timeless_scribe]
... when I was talking about APIs to the car, I was talking about running in the Car
09:44:01 [timeless_scribe]
... but having the APIs be client-server
09:44:08 [timeless_scribe]
... so you could run them from user's Phone/etc.
09:44:13 [timeless_scribe]
... but security would be crucial
09:44:18 [timeless_scribe]
... another interesting application
09:44:26 [timeless_scribe]
... being able to run applications when you're nowhere near the car
09:44:31 [timeless_scribe]
... remote unlocks, check car status
09:44:39 [timeless_scribe]
... an entire class of applications you could enable
09:44:40 [timeless_scribe]
... Good
09:44:53 [timeless_scribe]
pgaus: we have the chance to do low level
09:44:55 [timeless_scribe]
... or existing
09:44:59 [timeless_scribe]
... or do native in browser
09:45:04 [timeless_scribe]
ph: ok
09:45:14 [timeless_scribe]
kaz: Kaz, again
09:45:31 [timeless_scribe]
... I'd like to ask all the presenters from these sessions about Time Synchronization
09:45:40 [timeless_scribe]
... what sort of mechanism should be used?
09:45:47 [timeless_scribe]
... maybe precise time management is needed?
09:46:08 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: i don't think the Time Synchronization that accompanies video playback
09:46:18 [timeless_scribe]
... I think responsiveness of the UI is a bigger consideration
09:46:23 [timeless_scribe]
...it's a latency/responsiveness issue
09:46:29 [timeless_scribe]
... not something that can be baked into a spec
09:46:34 [timeless_scribe]
... just a requirement for the Car
09:46:44 [timeless_scribe]
... maybe 250ms for the car
09:46:51 [timeless_scribe]
... up to the platform to meet that
09:47:06 [timeless_scribe]
nils: when we're talking about UI today
09:47:12 [timeless_scribe]
... we don't have Time Synchronization today
09:47:14 [timeless_scribe]
... it's best effort
09:47:18 [timeless_scribe]
... architecture is Event based
09:47:23 [timeless_scribe]
... based on middleware
09:47:29 [timeless_scribe]
... system native components, there are timing constraints
09:47:35 [timeless_scribe]
... but we're talking about non native components
09:47:40 [timeless_scribe]
... timing isn't our biggest issue
09:47:42 [timeless_scribe]
ph: ok
09:47:48 [timeless_scribe]
... let's thank all speakers
09:47:50 [timeless_scribe]
[ Applause ]
09:47:59 [timeless_scribe]
ph: Break until 11:30am
09:48:05 [timeless_scribe]
... demos over there, coffee outside
10:31:25 [kaz]
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10:31:36 [timeless_scribe]
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10:31:50 [timeless_scribe]
marie: you're welcome to get one of these
10:31:53 [timeless_scribe]
... a safety jacket
10:32:01 [timeless_scribe]
... in europe, it's mandatory to have one of these in your car
10:32:08 [timeless_scribe]
... since this workshop is about safety
10:32:13 [timeless_scribe]
... here's a safety jacket
10:32:37 [timeless_scribe]
Topic: Safety situational awareness / driver distraction
10:32:49 [timeless_scribe]
dsr: before I start, we apologize about the networking
10:32:58 [timeless_scribe]
... if you're using WiFi on your phone, please turn it off
10:33:11 [timeless_scribe]
... if you really need a network, we have a small number of cables
10:33:16 [timeless_scribe]
... talk to the people outside
10:33:24 [timeless_scribe]
... let's start with the people from YYY
10:33:37 [kaz]
s/YYY/Access/
10:33:40 [timeless_scribe]
s/YYY/ACCESS/
10:33:48 [timeless_scribe]
marcin: Marcin OOO, ACCESS
10:34:00 [timeless_scribe]
.... we specialize in Browser+ DNLA solutions
10:34:02 [sakazawa_]
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10:34:08 [kaz]
s/OOO/Hanclik/
10:34:15 [timeless_scribe]
s/..../.../
10:34:21 [timeless_scribe]
... from the standardization perspective
10:34:24 [bgidon]
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10:34:30 [timeless_scribe]
... I take part in W3 and other SDOs
10:34:33 [timeless_scribe]
[ Agenda ]
10:34:52 [timeless_scribe]
marcin: Trends and Scenarios (Connectivity, Remote access)
10:35:07 [timeless_scribe]
... HaaP -- the Apps (nBox, REST API + JS Lib v JS APIs, Integration
10:35:10 [timeless_scribe]
... Demonstration
10:35:19 [timeless_scribe]
[ Trends of IVI platform evolution ]
10:35:35 [dsr]
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10:35:35 [timeless_scribe]
marcin: we install application on Mobile phone
10:35:41 [timeless_scribe]
... able to access IVI
10:35:46 [timeless_scribe]
... e.g. using MirrorLink
10:35:50 [marie]
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10:35:50 [naomi]
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10:35:51 [timeless_scribe]
... use smart phone for communication/commands
10:35:55 [timeless_scribe]
[ The standards ]
10:36:03 [timeless_scribe]
marcin: W3C, CEA, UPnP, DLNA
10:36:10 [hrbysh]
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10:36:15 [timeless_scribe]
... Vehicle API as part of Device APIs
10:36:27 [timeless_scribe]
... - Mobile: OMTP BONDI, WAC, GSMA, Webinos
10:36:32 [timeless_scribe]
... - W3C: DAP, SysApps
10:36:35 [harukon]
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10:36:41 [timeless_scribe]
... - Ca. 6 attempts to standardize Calendar API
10:36:48 [timeless_scribe]
marcin: many people want to contribute to w3c
10:36:52 [timeless_scribe]
... but standards exist
10:37:21 [timeless_scribe]
... we introduced topic of apis
10:37:31 [timeless_scribe]
... take another example ... a device API
10:37:38 [timeless_scribe]
... I participated in OMTP BONDI
10:37:46 [timeless_scribe]
... there was a standard defined for Calendar
10:37:51 [timeless_scribe]
... it was brought to W3C for standardization
10:38:00 [timeless_scribe]
... people said "we can do this differently"
10:38:06 [timeless_scribe]
... it was brought to WAC, and GSMA
10:38:10 [timeless_scribe]
... it was brought to Webinos
10:38:15 [timeless_scribe]
... it's part of 2 w3c WGs
10:38:23 [timeless_scribe]
... Device APIs and System APIs
10:38:31 [timeless_scribe]
... no standard today after 3-4 years of standardization
10:38:53 [timeless_scribe]
... it's not a technical problem
10:39:00 [timeless_scribe]
... it's a NIH (Not Invented Here) problem
10:39:07 [timeless_scribe]
... this is a work of standardization
10:39:19 [timeless_scribe]
... for TV
10:39:23 [timeless]
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10:39:26 [timeless_scribe]
... everyone ended up in Web and TV IG
10:39:31 [timeless_scribe]
... this body can only make Notes
10:39:36 [timeless_scribe]
... work has to be sent to WG
10:39:45 [timeless_scribe]
... W3C works under FRAND principles
10:39:53 [timeless_scribe]
... everything is royalty free
10:40:08 [timeless_scribe]
[ Connectivity: UPnP ]
10:40:16 [timeless_scribe]
marcin: we have Terminal Mode
10:40:20 [timeless_scribe]
... from MirrorLink
10:40:25 [timeless_scribe]
... it isn't an open standard
10:40:36 [timeless_scribe]
[ Remote UI - Remote access ]
10:40:47 [timeless]
scribenick: timeless
10:40:57 [timeless]
marcin: a car, or a device in a car becomes another gadget
10:41:14 [timeless]
... UPnP defines a network
10:41:23 [timeless]
... you can access your devices from home
10:41:31 [timeless]
s/devices/resources/
10:41:36 [timeless]
... or your car/whichever way
10:41:48 [timeless]
... W3C has a draft specification of Network Discovery (Opera)
10:41:53 [timeless]
... to let devices discover eachother
10:42:01 [timeless]
... we have competing standards for discoverability
10:42:06 [timeless]
... we have CA 2014
10:42:11 [timeless]
... we have Web Intents
10:42:15 [Alan]
s/eachother/each other/
10:42:20 [timeless]
[ HTML5 as a platform ]
10:42:40 [naomi_]
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10:42:41 [timeless]
marcin: we'd like to discuss HTML5 as a Platform (HaaP)
10:42:44 [timeless]
... for some, HTML5 is <video>
10:42:55 [timeless]
... for some, HTML5 is (CSS)box-shadow:
10:43:06 [timeless]
... some want a collection
10:43:10 [timeless]
... which is the highest value
10:43:20 [timeless]
[ HaaP - why? ]
10:43:36 [timeless]
marcin: one of the solutions is to
10:43:50 [timeless]
... create web applications using HTML5/CSS/JS to share application between multiple devices
10:43:55 [timeless]
... we have multiple devices in a car
10:44:02 [timeless]
... and need a way to interact between them
10:44:07 [timeless]
[ nBox - the framework ]
10:44:12 [timeless]
marcin: we have the need to access the car
10:44:14 [timeless]
... from inside
10:44:18 [timeless]
... and also from outside
10:44:25 [timeless]
... we need a bridge from car to mechanics
10:44:28 [timeless]
... this is the platform
10:44:31 [timeless]
[ nBox goals ]
10:44:36 [timeless]
marcin: it's important this is Cross-Browser
10:44:44 [timeless]
... purely browser based solution may not be a good solution
10:44:49 [timeless]
... it's better that it be a separate module
10:44:54 [timeless]
... nBox is an embedded web server
10:45:02 [timeless]
... it generates HTML documents for the UI
10:45:04 [timeless]
... or JSON data
10:45:09 [timeless]
... extensibility
10:45:14 [timeless]
... we're pushed by marketing guys
10:45:19 [timeless]
... to be better than the competition
10:45:24 [timeless]
... it must be extensible
10:45:29 [timeless]
... must be part of the framework
10:45:35 [timeless]
[ REST APIs v. JS APIs ]
10:45:40 [timeless]
marcin: Application management
10:45:48 [timeless]
... Install, Uninstall, Get+Install Apps
10:45:55 [timeless]
[ Applications and Services ]
10:46:02 [timeless]
marcin: we distinguish between applications and services
10:46:06 [timeless]
... applications have a UI
10:46:17 [timeless]
... services provide functionality
10:46:26 [timeless]
... here, what's the API?
10:46:29 [timeless]
... is it JS?
10:46:31 [timeless]
... is it REST?
10:46:41 [timeless]
[ Integration models ]
10:46:46 [timeless]
marcin: Embedded; Separated
10:46:49 [timeless]
[ Demonstration ]
10:46:55 [timeless]
marcin: Connect IVI and Smartphone
10:47:02 [timeless]
... Operate IVI menu from smartphone
10:47:08 [timeless]
... Install an application
10:47:18 [timeless]
... -- important that you can take a mobile phone and play a game in the IVI
10:47:24 [timeless]
[ Demonstration ]
10:47:28 [timeless]
marcin: this is what we'll demo
10:47:32 [timeless]
... start the video
10:47:36 [timeless]
[ Video ]
10:47:58 [timeless]
marcin: this is the potential ivi screen
10:48:04 [timeless]
... here we have a mobile device
10:48:19 [timeless]
[ Firefox Mobile ]
10:48:31 [timeless]
marcin: similar solution to web intents
10:48:37 [timeless]
... need user's consent to access service
10:48:47 [timeless]
... here we can control IVI via remote terminal
10:48:53 [timeless]
... protocol is XHR+WebSockets
10:49:12 [timeless]
[ User is driving IVI w/ browser on phone ]
10:49:49 [timeless]
marcin: there's no feeling of network latency
10:50:02 [timeless]
dsr: is this going through a local server
10:50:04 [timeless]
... or cloud?
10:50:15 [timeless]
marcin: this is two browsers connected via nBox
10:50:19 [timeless]
... that's it
10:50:22 [timeless]
[ Applause ]
10:50:29 [timeless]
dsr: questions?
10:50:49 [timeless]
UUU: are you using graphics acceleration?
10:50:54 [timeless]
marcin: yes, but it's part of the display
10:51:02 [timeless]
... we have WebGL/CSS transformations
10:51:11 [timeless]
... but the information sent between devices is just commands
10:51:22 [timeless]
UUU: so nothing special?
10:51:24 [timeless]
marcin: no
10:51:38 [timeless]
dsr: you told us about the difficulties in the mobile world of Calendar APIs
10:51:44 [timeless]
... what advice for Automotive?
10:51:50 [timeless]
marcin: gather as many people as possible
10:51:54 [timeless]
... adopt the work done by others
10:52:01 [timeless]
... maybe tune it
10:52:19 [kaz]
s/UUU:/woochul:/g
10:52:23 [naomi_]
s/UUU:/WooChul:/
10:53:03 [timeless]
Josh_Soref: WebGL from Khronos is a good example of a disaster
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10:53:11 [timeless]
... they just ported the C api and called it JS
10:53:19 [timeless]
... which causes incredible pain for Browser vendors
10:53:25 [timeless]
... it violates models
10:53:40 [timeless]
marcin: there were other 3D proposals
10:53:46 [timeless]
... we just need to adopt something and use it
10:54:02 [timeless]
... WebGL it's used on all devices?
10:54:07 [timeless]
Josh_Soref: it skipped the standards process
10:54:17 [timeless]
dsr: who we need to involve to have effective standards
10:54:21 [timeless]
... thank you
10:54:23 [timeless]
[ Applause ]
10:54:52 [timeless]
Topic: Web and Automotive Shopping List
10:55:01 [timeless]
[ Authors Profile ]
10:55:14 [timeless]
magnus: Magnus Olsson, Sony Ericsson
10:55:33 [timeless]
[ Web and Automotive ]
10:55:51 [timeless]
magnus: Introduction (Bare bones architecture, Leverage Open Web Platform)
10:55:53 [Alan]
s/Sony Ericsson/Ericsson/
10:56:02 [timeless]
[ Bare bones architecture ]
10:56:10 [timeless]
magnus: people are fairly familiar w/ the web stack already
10:56:14 [timeless]
... I don't see that problem
10:56:20 [timeless]
... you understand those challenges
10:56:55 [timeless]
magnus: challenge to go to an extensible framework
10:57:29 [timeless]
,.. APIs could come from multiple sources
10:57:38 [timeless]
s/,../.../
10:57:41 [timeless]
... not just the car, but also phones
10:57:50 [timeless]
... the QNX/ACCESS presentations
10:57:54 [timeless]
... could be useful for everyone
10:57:58 [timeless]
[ Leverage the Open Web Platform ]
10:58:06 [timeless]
magnus: no one has mentioned that already
10:58:11 [timeless]
... the W3C maintains a web stack
10:58:15 [timeless]
... what belongs in the web stack
10:58:18 [timeless]
... at a point in time
10:58:30 [timeless]
... we need to keep fragmentation at a minimum
10:58:38 [timeless]
... we need a number of administrative features
10:58:46 [timeless]
... Configurability, Capability, Upgradeability
10:59:12 [timeless]
... - w3c doesn't necessarily need to develop these, but they need to be there
10:59:18 [timeless]
... Connectivity, HTTP/WebSockets
10:59:27 [timeless]
... - Wire/Bluetooth/WiFi/Cellular
10:59:32 [timeless]
... this needs to be abstracted
10:59:43 [timeless]
... creating APIs that don't care about underlying medias
11:00:03 [timeless]
... Responsive User Interface
11:00:07 [timeless]
... manufacturer brand+style sheet
11:00:12 [timeless]
... to look like Audi/BMW
11:00:16 [timeless]
... but from a developer PoV
11:00:24 [timeless]
... you don't necessarily need every pixel well designed
11:00:30 [timeless]
... Responsive UI is good, you focus on the data
11:00:36 [timeless]
... developer doesn't care about L&F...
11:00:38 [timeless]
... they care about data
11:00:46 [timeless]
... UI some screens are bigger, some smaller
11:01:07 [timeless]
... you don't need to focus on every pixel
11:01:08 [timeless]
... we can use 3D transitions
11:01:14 [timeless]
... physical controls / abstract events
11:01:21 [timeless]
... car manufacturers are used to building these
11:01:38 [timeless]
... if those controls could be mapped back to the web in a good way
11:01:47 [timeless]
... to control more than just volume level
11:01:54 [timeless]
... Future Proof
11:02:00 [timeless]
... there needs to be a business model
11:02:14 [timeless]
... but if players could reach a level field ecosystem, we could then grow the ecosystem
11:02:17 [timeless]
[ Challenges ]
11:02:26 [timeless]
magnus: a multiverse of ecosystems
11:02:32 [timeless]
[ Connected Eco Systems]
11:02:46 [timeless]
magnus: Service Delivery Aspects introduced to various vehicles
11:03:09 [timeless]
... Walled Gardenn; App Stores; Bundled Service; Cloud Services; Connected Industries
11:03:13 [timeless]
... Facebook was mentioned
11:03:20 [timeless]
... how could you leverage that in automotive space as well?
11:03:38 [timeless]
... Existing App Stores could be attached to the car app store
11:03:54 [naomi]
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11:04:00 [timeless]
... Map and Navigation
11:04:04 [timeless]
... - easy to charge for
11:04:56 [timeless]
[ Sensors want to be heard ]
11:05:04 [timeless]
magnus: automotive, you have a lot of sensors
11:05:10 [timeless]
... you could create great applications with them
11:05:51 [timeless]
... Challenges
11:05:58 [timeless]
... sharing data, possibly anonymized
11:06:14 [timeless]
... so developers could build crowd sourced applications based on data from cars
11:06:21 [timeless]
[ User in the driver's seat ]
11:06:24 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
11:06:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html timeless
11:06:56 [timeless]
magnus: Privacy
11:07:05 [timeless]
... Avoid intrusive behavior
11:07:12 [timeless]
... ability to get logging
11:07:14 [timeless]
... roaming
11:07:21 [timeless]
... - important to Ericsson
11:07:26 [timeless]
... roaming is preventing a lot of UCs
11:07:36 [timeless]
... if we could produce things which don't use much data
11:07:42 [timeless]
... aggregating Push traffic
11:07:48 [timeless]
gryc: on End User Auditing
11:07:54 [timeless]
... do you see that as something
11:08:02 [timeless]
... that is an actual User Concern
11:08:07 [timeless]
... or a Required for B2B
11:08:10 [timeless]
... or Fleet operations
11:08:14 [timeless]
... or Accessibility
11:08:16 [timeless]
... or ?
11:08:35 [timeless]
magnus: for end users
11:08:41 [timeless]
... to know what features are activated
11:08:45 [timeless]
... how much data is being used
11:08:51 [timeless]
... Fleets already have that data in the cloud
11:08:55 [timeless]
... this is more end user perspective
11:09:19 [timeless]
[ Developer Proposition ]
11:09:38 [timeless]
magnus: Enable as many APIs/Sensors as possible with good quality
11:09:47 [timeless]
... Consider safe mash-up techniques
11:09:51 [timeless]
... Web Intents/
11:10:06 [timeless]
... Keep cost and overhead (time) down
11:10:13 [timeless]
... based on experience in WAC community
11:10:19 [timeless]
... you need to be engaged in Genivi
11:10:27 [timeless]
... you have on your agenda to make things effortless
11:10:44 [timeless]
... Separate roles of application provider, security provider and payment provider
11:10:51 [timeless]
... it could be a benefit, it isn't so easy to do
11:11:22 [timeless]
... avoid discrimination of OS platforms
11:11:31 [timeless]
... If we can design solutions
11:11:38 [timeless]
... based on HTTP Clients
11:11:47 [timeless]
... we don't close solutions to specific platforms
11:11:56 [timeless]
[ W3C Innovative ideas ]
11:12:08 [timeless]
magnus: Indie UI and Pointer Events
11:12:35 [timeless]
s/Indie UI and Pointer Events/we had a Plenary (TPAC) two weeks ago in Lyon/
11:12:37 [timeless]
magnus: Indie UI and Pointer Events
11:12:45 [timeless]
... if that could be controlled around the car
11:12:56 [timeless]
... how can you describe a control system in a way that a web app can understand
11:13:00 [timeless]
... since you don't have a keyboard
11:13:37 [timeless]
... Challenge of automated testing
11:13:47 [timeless]
... there's a project in W3C called Web Driver
11:13:48 [timeless]
... for testing
11:13:58 [timeless]
... so you can do automated testing using JS
11:14:11 [timeless]
... and I mentioned Web Activities/Intents
11:14:17 [timeless]
[ Ample power, comfy seats ]
11:14:22 [timeless]
[ Cool use case, Web HUD ]
11:14:34 [timeless]
magnus: a number of concepts in W3C
11:14:39 [timeless]
... Service Discovery - Web Intents
11:14:43 [timeless]
... I haven't implemented yet
11:14:48 [timeless]
... how a Web HUD could look
11:15:27 [timeless]
... abstracting controls could be real interesting
11:15:34 [timeless]
... Interesting things - Google Glasses
11:15:39 [timeless]
[ Use case - Social Fleet ]
11:15:42 [timeless]
magnus: it's important
11:15:46 [timeless]
... it highlights UCs
11:15:55 [timeless]
... don't limit to UCs where web app is running in the car
11:16:01 [timeless]
... have a way to send data to the cloud
11:16:07 [timeless]
... for crowd sourced data
11:16:12 [timeless]
... requires car to be somewhat connected
11:16:16 [timeless]
... over time, that will be the case
11:16:26 [timeless]
[ Use case - Zombie drive ]
11:16:46 [timeless]
magnus: developers could come up w/ interesting uses
11:16:52 [timeless]
[ Conclusions and Q&A ]
11:16:58 [timeless]
magnus: lots of sensors in automotive
11:17:06 [timeless]
... if we can reach a point where that data can be shared in a safe way
11:17:10 [timeless]
... that will be important
11:17:13 [timeless]
... it will take time
11:17:22 [timeless]
... personal integrity must be in front of our mind
11:17:30 [timeless]
... re-cycle the open web platform
11:17:38 [timeless]
... think about other roles
11:17:43 [timeless]
... Connect with other ecosystems
11:17:47 [timeless]
dsr: questions?
11:17:59 [timeless]
dsr: you talk about apps going across multiple screens
11:18:04 [timeless]
... what's needed for developers?
11:18:11 [timeless]
... hooking into the cloud
11:18:17 [timeless]
... what might we want to explore there?
11:18:24 [timeless]
magnus: you could envision one browser per screen
11:18:33 [timeless]
... smaller devices have an extra screen
11:18:39 [timeless]
... in that, you have a JS api
11:18:44 [timeless]
... depends on the size of the ui
11:19:02 [timeless]
... just need a way to discover that display
11:19:08 [timeless]
... need a manifest
11:19:10 [timeless]
dsr: thanks
11:19:13 [timeless]
[ Applause ]
11:19:21 [timeless]
dsr: last talk of the session
11:19:23 [timeless]
Topic: Gemalto
11:19:37 [timeless]
s/Gemalto/Gemalto - How can web apps EEE/
11:19:45 [timeless]
www: Hi
11:19:52 [timeless]
[ Agenda ]
11:19:59 [timeless]
[ Gemalto at a glance ]
11:20:13 [timeless]
www: 50 government programs and customers
11:20:21 [timeless]
... identity card, electronic passports, drivers licenses
11:20:35 [timeless]
... 490 telecoms with services for 2.5 billion subscribers (sims)
11:20:40 [timeless]
... also banking cards
11:20:48 [kaz]
s/www:/girard:/g
11:20:50 [timeless]
[ The need for digital security and trust is booming ... ]
11:21:02 [timeless]
[ Machine to Machine Communications ]
11:21:11 [timeless]
girard: we provide wireless modules
11:21:17 [timeless]
... in several MTM verticals
11:21:20 [timeless]
... including automotive
11:21:30 [timeless]
... we already have automotive/car manufacturers as customers
11:21:35 [timeless]
... and we provide digital security
11:21:47 [timeless]
[ Hardware factorization in cars ]
11:21:56 [timeless]
girard: you used to have Navigation in car
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11:22:02 [timeless]
... and radar detector
11:22:06 [timeless]
.... multimedia
11:22:09 [timeless]
... and eco driving
11:22:14 [timeless]
s/..../.../
11:22:21 [timeless]
... as separate modules
11:22:24 [timeless]
... now they're integrated
11:22:27 [timeless]
... and services are apps
11:22:33 [timeless]
[ Car as a programming platform ]
11:22:41 [timeless]
girard: we need a rich API to attact developers
11:22:46 [timeless]
... to have apps on this platform
11:23:01 [timeless]
... case study "RelayRides app on OnStar"
11:23:06 [timeless]
... peer to peer car rental
11:23:13 [timeless]
... vehicle owner rents car to system
11:23:29 [timeless]
... before now, it wasn't convenient
11:23:38 [timeless]
... they developed an application for OnStar
11:23:43 [timeless]
... which this application on your car
11:23:48 [timeless]
... the system is easier
11:23:59 [timeless]
... you declare you're working from 8 am to 6pm
11:24:06 [timeless]
... your vehicle is available in the parking lot
11:24:15 [timeless]
... they can be directed by GPS on their phone to the car
11:24:22 [timeless]
... they click on the mobile phone
11:24:34 [timeless]
... which tells the app in the car to unlock the car
11:24:37 [timeless]
... and let them drive the car
11:24:40 [timeless]
... you drive the car
11:24:43 [timeless]
... and return it
11:24:54 [timeless]
... and the app can log how much you drove and how much fuel you used
11:25:00 [timeless]
... and the application reports back where the car is
11:25:11 [timeless]
... you know if the car drove correctly
11:25:45 [timeless]
... it's still a native App
11:25:58 [timeless]
... but to avoid the native app fragmentation problem
11:26:08 [timeless]
... we should design a platform so you could deploy this on a web platform
11:26:12 [timeless]
ph: how successful is this?
11:26:18 [timeless]
girard: the service is pretty popular
11:26:25 [timeless]
... the app was released in july this year
11:26:35 [timeless]
... i'm not using the app right now
11:26:58 [timeless]
... for this you'd need a large number of deployed cars
11:27:03 [timeless]
... fragmentation hurts
11:27:13 [timeless]
[ How to protect ... ]
11:27:15 [timeless]
girard: Safety
11:27:25 [timeless]
.... how to prevent access to CAN bus by malicious in-car apps ?
11:27:39 [timeless]
... opening the car involves an order on the CAN bus
11:27:46 [timeless]
s/..../.../
11:27:56 [timeless]
... how to prevent malicious firmware update?
11:27:59 [timeless]
... Privacy
11:28:10 [timeless]
... how to selectively disclose location/driving patterns
11:28:26 [timeless]
... big data/local aggregation/inference
11:28:42 [timeless]
... when rented you don't want full tracking
11:28:48 [timeless]
... but when it's returned, you do
11:29:03 [timeless]
s|... big data/local aggregation/inference||
11:29:07 [timeless]
... big data/local aggregation/inference
11:29:26 [timeless]
... you could process data locally, aggregate data before sending
11:29:37 [timeless]
... - discount to insurance if you drive less than X/Y km / yr
11:29:47 [timeless]
... company has the right to know how many miles you drove this year
11:29:53 [timeless]
... but this needs to be aggregated at the car level
11:29:58 [timeless]
... no point to show daily use
11:30:06 [timeless]
... same thing, if you rent a car
11:30:12 [timeless]
... and aren't allowed to drive it outside Italy
11:30:18 [timeless]
... rental company has no right to track you
11:30:25 [timeless]
... but maybe an alert if you cross a border
11:30:37 [timeless]
... aggregate and process data locally
11:30:48 [timeless]
... anonymous authentication and payment
11:30:58 [timeless]
... you may need to prove you have a valid driver's license
11:31:11 [timeless]
... but no need to show the full name
11:31:23 [timeless]
... in Germany you can prove you have a German license w/o disclosing your name
11:31:26 [timeless]
... Security
11:31:32 [timeless]
... we want to prevent car stealing by hacking
11:31:38 [timeless]
... which exists nowadays
11:31:45 [timeless]
... prevent mileage modification
11:31:49 [timeless]
... and prevent DoS
11:31:53 [timeless]
[ Which threat model ? ]
11:32:11 [timeless]
girard: UCs and lifecyle is more complex than an electronic appliance
11:32:25 [timeless]
... i can attack my mobile phone
11:32:28 [timeless]
... i can download an app
11:32:32 [timeless]
... also lost and found UCs
11:32:34 [timeless]
... for a car
11:32:39 [timeless]
... the attacker could be
11:32:43 [timeless]
... one or many drivers
11:32:45 [timeless]
... passengers
11:32:47 [timeless]
... car owner
11:32:49 [timeless]
... car dealer
11:32:55 [timeless]
... maintenance operator
11:32:59 [timeless]
... thieves
11:33:02 [timeless]
... remote hackers
11:33:05 [maru]
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11:33:13 [timeless]
... it may not be an attack as such
11:33:21 [timeless]
... people may want to jailbreak just because
11:33:41 [timeless]
... is this an attack?
11:34:01 [timeless]
... distinguish: remote and physical attaqcks
11:34:09 [timeless]
girard: car life cycle will be longer than electronic device
11:34:13 [timeless]
s/qcks/cks/
11:34:19 [timeless]
... think about wiping personal data
11:34:27 [timeless]
... send to maintenance, lock personal data/credentials
11:34:37 [timeless]
... upgrade system, need to back up data? and then restore it?
11:34:53 [timeless]
... UCs: renting/sharing/company fleet
11:35:19 [timeless]
... neighborhood cars
11:35:50 [timeless]
[ Is this an attack? ]
11:36:05 [timeless]
girard: these are examples of hacks
11:36:08 [timeless]
... theming
11:36:12 [timeless]
... adding usb key
11:36:30 [timeless]
... replace cd player w/ usb stick
11:36:43 [timeless]
... directory was limited to 12 entries, now bigger
11:36:48 [timeless]
... these are techno enthusiasts
11:37:00 [timeless]
... but this has security ramifications
11:37:08 [timeless]
... what about opening the door to malicious hackers?
11:37:17 [timeless]
[ Software security v. Hardware security ]
11:37:23 [timeless]
girard: PC/servers
11:37:28 [timeless]
... considered for software security
11:37:31 [timeless]
... you trust your users
11:37:35 [timeless]
... direct access to data
11:37:41 [timeless]
... you could open pc and remove disk
11:37:44 [timeless]
... on the other side
11:37:48 [timeless]
... you take SIM card
11:37:52 [timeless]
... PoS terminal
11:37:58 [timeless]
... hardware security
11:38:05 [timeless]
... can be deployed in unprotected environments
11:38:14 [timeless]
... no direct access to data
11:38:21 [timeless]
... tamper resistant devices
11:38:25 [timeless]
... -- what about cars?
11:38:39 [timeless]
... some parts fall into software security, some into hardware security
11:38:47 [timeless]
[ A security framework will be needed ]
11:38:58 [timeless]
girard: of course we need permissions on API
11:39:01 [timeless]
... but it's not so simple
11:39:07 [timeless]
... avoid the "click I accept" syndrome
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11:39:20 [timeless]
... Permissions need to be managed based on
11:39:32 [timeless]
... - service provider/developer identity
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11:39:50 [timeless]
... -- good, but just being able to sign doesn't mean you don't have bugs
11:39:54 [timeless]
... - certification status
11:40:20 [timeless]
... -- additional signature to say this application has been tested against some guidelines
11:40:29 [timeless]
... - user authentication
11:40:35 [timeless]
... -- fleet owner may have different rights
11:40:43 [timeless]
... - car life cycle state (e.g. in maintenance)
11:40:52 [timeless]
... - real time context (e.g. speed)
11:41:00 [timeless]
... Apps and services will also need
11:41:11 [timeless]
... - user/car authentication
11:41:27 [timeless]
... -- if you subscribe to a service, your subscription may follow you as you switch cars
11:41:40 [timeless]
... -- service could be linked to a car not a user
11:41:45 [Alan]
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11:41:52 [timeless]
... - billing framework
11:41:57 [timeless]
[ Identification and authentication ]
11:42:10 [timeless]
girard: managemetn of identities and roles
11:42:23 [timeless]
... - roles = owner, driver, passenger, shift manager, fleet manager, maintainer, ...
11:42:31 [timeless]
... Flexible authentication methods
11:42:34 [timeless]
... - biometrics
11:42:47 [timeless]
... -- maybe you have fingerprints
11:42:55 [timeless]
... --- possibly not relevant in some areas
11:42:56 [timeless]
... - cryptography
11:43:00 [timeless]
... - hardware based
11:43:10 [timeless]
... -- needs to be flexible in mechanism
11:43:30 [timeless]
... -- blue/pink isn't the same as door open v. who pays for electricity
11:43:59 [timeless]
... --- seemless integration for car-charging -- billing
11:44:23 [timeless]
i/blue/Flexible security levels/
11:44:28 [timeless]
s/inserted/scribe/
11:44:43 [timeless]
... Various form factors
11:44:49 [timeless]
[ dsr: time check ]
11:44:53 [timeless]
[ App life cycle management ]
11:45:01 [timeless]
girard: Actors
11:45:08 [timeless]
... developer, service provider, car platform manager
11:45:13 [timeless]
... evaluation and certification
11:45:15 [timeless]
... ...
11:45:20 [timeless]
[ Recommendations ]
11:45:24 [timeless]
girard: technical
11:45:32 [timeless]
... standardize powerful+attactive car API
11:45:45 [timeless]
... design safety - security - privacy model
11:45:55 [timeless]
... - permission based, role based, with flexible authentication
11:46:02 [timeless]
... Method
11:46:13 [timeless]
... work with W3C (SysApps, DAP)
11:46:21 [timeless]
... reuse e.g. from OMTP Bondi
11:46:27 [timeless]
... connect with Genivi OneM2M
11:46:31 [timeless]
... ETSI
11:46:44 [timeless]
[ Applause ]
11:46:51 [timeless]
dsr: time for a quick question.
11:47:02 [timeless]
dsr: W3C is already doing work on Security
11:47:05 [timeless]
... we have WebAppSec
11:47:09 [timeless]
... DAP is working on Security
11:47:10 [timeless]
... SysApps
11:47:19 [timeless]
... what's the best way for W3C to work on Security?
11:47:33 [timeless]
girard: my personal recommendation would be for Automotive to submit requirements to e.g. SysApps
11:47:43 [timeless]
... maybe they're considering a model that's too simplistic
11:47:45 [timeless]
dsr: thanks
11:47:47 [timeless]
[ Applause ]
11:47:51 [timeless]
dsr: break for lunch
11:48:02 [timeless]
... it's on the house
11:48:11 [timeless]
adam: the room will be locked
11:48:22 [timeless]
kaz: Group Photo?
11:48:32 [timeless]
dsr: kaz is volunteering to take a group photo
11:48:37 [timeless]
... who would like to have a group photo?
11:48:41 [timeless]
dsr: smattering of hands
11:48:44 [timeless]
[ underwhelming ]
11:48:50 [timeless]
dsr: maybe we can do it after lunch
11:48:55 [timeless]
ph: Start again at 2pm
11:49:13 [timeless]
marie: don't forget the safety jackets
11:51:27 [timeless]
present- Justin_Park
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11:53:00 [timeless]
present+ Alex_Ajao Ludovic_Alidra Kazuyuki_Ashimura Daniel_Austin Matthias_Bezold J_Alan_Bird Youngwoo_Choi Chris _Delaney Michael_Feld Peter_Gaus Bernard_Gidon Pierre_Girard Petter_Graff William_Greenly Magnus_Gunnarsson Prashanth_Halady Tatsuhiko_Hirabayashi Raymond_Hoogendoorn Hiroshi_Ito HyungJin_Jeon Woochul_Jung Kazuhiro_Kitagawa Haruhiko_Kondo Pavel_Konopelko Amy_Leeland Mitsunori_Maru Markus_Muenkler Tsuguo_Nobe Magnus_Olsson
11:53:13 [timeless]
present+ Nils_Oppermann Justin_(JongSeon)_Park Erik_Pellemeier Scott_Pennock Alejandro_Piñeiro_Iglesias Thomas_Rottach Shigeyuki_Sakazawa Cheree_Anne_Schepp Paul_Slattery Sebastian_Speiser Marius_Spika Roman_Steiger Tatsuaki_Takahashi Jean-Marc_Temmos Naomi_Yoshizawa Roberto_Zompi
11:53:18 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
11:53:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html timeless
11:54:43 [surata]
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12:04:28 [Josh_Soref]
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12:57:40 [kkitagawa]
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12:59:03 [dsr]
present+ Dave_Raggett
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scribenick: timeless
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Topic: Vehicle APIs and Security
13:01:03 [timeless]
adam: I have four companies
13:01:10 [timeless]
... LGE, BMW, Intel and AKQA
13:01:18 [timeless]
... to talk to you about these topics
13:01:43 [timeless]
Topic: Genivi Web Vehicle API
13:02:05 [timeless]
JongSeon: Justin (JongSeon) Park, LG Electronics
13:02:18 [timeless]
... our lab provides solutions for TV, Mobile, and even cars
13:02:27 [timeless]
... automotive is the fastest growing field in LGE
13:02:37 [timeless]
... we deliver IVI and ... to cars
13:02:46 [timeless]
s/... to/Telematics to/
13:02:53 [timeless]
... I'm also involved in Genivi
13:02:56 [timeless]
[ Agenda ]
13:03:01 [timeless]
JongSeon: Why we selected this topic
13:03:19 [timeless]
... Characteristics of Vehicle Data
13:03:23 [timeless]
... Considerations
13:03:26 [timeless]
... - Suggested Architecture
13:03:40 [timeless]
... - Principles to define Vehicle APIs
13:03:47 [timeless]
... Introduction of Genivi API
13:03:48 [timeless]
... ...
13:03:56 [timeless]
[ Web Technologies for Automotive ]
13:04:18 [timeless]
[ How to Make Standard Vehicle APIs? ]
13:04:32 [timeless]
JongSeon: We have to understand and consider characters of vehicle data
13:04:38 [timeless]
... Data characteristics
13:04:49 [timeless]
... - so many kinds of vehicle data and data types
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13:05:00 [timeless]
... - a few persistent data - car type, vin, model, wmi, ...
13:05:01 [naomi]
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13:05:07 [timeless]
... - most data are transient; status at a moment
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13:05:16 [timeless]
... - Only the latest value is meaningful (except GPS)
13:05:26 [timeless]
... Vehincle Natwork Characterstic (usually CAN)
13:05:36 [timeless]
... - Real data exist somewhere else - not in IVI
13:05:43 [timeless]
.. - Data is broadcasted rather than query
13:05:51 [timeless]
s/../.../
13:05:52 [timeless]
... OEM Variations
13:06:01 [timeless]
... - Unit, Accuracy, Frequency
13:06:10 [timeless]
[ Overall IVI Architecture for Vehicle APIs ]
13:06:26 [timeless]
JongSeon: Layered architecture according to characterstics of vehicle network
13:06:32 [timeless]
... Vehicle Network Manager
13:06:41 [timeless]
... - call it from application
13:06:51 [timeless]
... - subscribe/publish mechanism should come from it
13:07:06 [timeless]
... the Vehicle device API is a thin layer on it
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13:07:16 [timeless]
... it's the difference with other device APIs
13:07:24 [timeless]
... this is good for supporting apps in the same way
13:07:40 [timeless]
[ How to Overcome OEM Variations ]
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13:07:48 [timeless]
JongSeon: we try to define as many data types as possible
13:07:56 [timeless]
... - gather OEM requirements
13:08:04 [timeless]
... - define data types as optional
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13:08:14 [timeless]
... define small number of methods
13:08:20 [timeless]
... use less structured interface
13:08:36 [timeless]
[ Web Vehicle API Project in GENIVI ]
13:08:51 [timeless]
JongSeon: We categorized 129 data types
13:08:54 [timeless]
... in 9 groups
13:09:11 [timeless]
... the 9 groups were formed into interfaces
13:09:18 [timeless]
... we defined two methods (get, set)
13:09:37 [timeless]
... since data is optional, we defined a way for web apps to find out if a type is supported
13:09:50 [timeless]
[ API Description - Common Interface ]
13:10:04 [timeless]
JongSeon: we defined 9 interfaces, each inherit from Event
13:10:25 [timeless]
[ scribe: [NoInterfaceObject] is misplaced ]
13:10:36 [timeless]
[NoInterfaceObject]
13:10:44 [timeless]
interface VehicleEvent : Event {};
13:10:58 [timeless]
interface RunningStatusEvent : VehicleEvent {
13:11:01 [timeless]
...
13:11:12 [timeless]
readonly attribute unsigned short speedometer;
13:11:22 [timeless]
readonly attribute unsigned short? enginespeed;
13:11:25 [timeless]
...
13:11:26 [timeless]
}
13:11:28 [timeless]
...
13:11:40 [timeless]
[ API Description - Multiple Data Access (1/3) ]
13:11:49 [timeless]
JongSeon: well-structured interface
13:12:01 [timeless]
... this example shows a relation between datatypes
13:12:06 [timeless]
[ Graphic ]
13:12:21 [timeless]
[ API Description - Multiple Data Access (2/3) ]
13:12:35 [timeless]
JongSeon: we tried things a different way
13:13:05 [surata]
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13:13:30 [timeless]
Interface A : Event {
13:13:48 [timeless]
attribute Type /*missing name*/;
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attribute A_1_a /*missing name*/;
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attribute A_1_b /*missing name*/;
13:14:09 [timeless]
attribute A_1_c /*missing name*/;
13:14:12 [timeless]
...
13:14:15 [timeless]
};
13:14:37 [timeless]
const A_1_a = "A_1_a";
13:14:39 [timeless]
...
13:14:52 [timeless]
[ API Description - Multiple Data Access (3/3) ]
13:15:18 [timeless]
JongSeon: then code uses if .type=A_1_.... to guard access to the attribute that has data
13:15:53 [timeless]
... if the type is not a given type, then that attribute's values can be garbage
13:16:03 [timeless]
[ API Description - Example (1/6) ]
13:16:08 [timeless]
...
13:16:11 [timeless]
[ API Description - Example (2/6) ]
13:16:21 [timeless]
JongSeon: Getting a single vehicle data
13:16:28 [timeless]
... to get tire pressure
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... first argument is attribute, second is the callback for success, the third for error
13:16:55 [timeless]
[ API Description - Example (3/6) ]
13:17:05 [timeless]
JongSeon: let's get the tire pressure for each tire
13:17:14 [timeless]
... normally, you'd need a handler for each tire
13:17:26 [timeless]
... instead you can use a group id
13:17:42 [timeless]
... instead of "maintenance_tire_pressure_status_front_left" ...
13:17:50 [timeless]
... use "maintenance_tire_pressure_status"
13:17:57 [timeless]
... of course the plugin would have to support this
13:19:20 [timeless]
JongSeon: using event listener (publish-subscribe mechanism from the web)
13:19:35 [timeless]
i/using/[ API Description - Example (4/6) ]/
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s/inserted/scribe/
13:19:52 [timeless]
[ API Description - Example (5/6) ]
13:20:04 [timeless]
JongSeon: position ...
13:20:07 [timeless]
[ API Description - Example (6/6) ]
13:20:16 [timeless]
JongSeon: the set method is similar to the get method
13:20:26 [timeless]
... but it has an additional argument for the data
13:20:45 [timeless]
... let's see how to set multiple properties at a time
13:21:01 [timeless]
... to set all values at a time, one should set all the related values
13:21:13 [timeless]
[ Pros and Cons ]
13:21:15 [masao]
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JongSeon: many strong points of Genivi WebIDL
13:21:38 [timeless]
... there's the bit that it's confusing
13:21:44 [timeless]
... if you set a listener on the root
13:21:49 [timeless]
... you can get many unrelated events
13:22:04 [timeless]
... since data is changed as an untyped structure, there are tens of bytes overhead
13:22:18 [timeless]
... we're considering investigating these issues and trying to find a better way
13:22:22 [timeless]
[ Conclusion ]
13:22:26 [timeless]
JongSeon: Flexibility
13:22:43 [timeless]
... vehicle api depends on rigid factors such as network protocol and oem's policy
13:22:48 [timeless]
... Generality
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.. should fit many oem's requirements
13:23:00 [timeless]
s/../.../
13:23:06 [harukon]
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13:23:16 [timeless]
... limited coverage will cause additional work and fragmentation
13:23:19 [timeless]
... Timing
13:23:35 [timeless]
... once oems use their own apis, it's not easy to convince them to adopt standard apis
13:23:49 [timeless]
adam: Thanks justin
13:23:53 [timeless]
[ Applause ]
13:23:56 [timeless]
adam: questions?
13:24:40 [timeless]
Topic: Enabling Rich Web Applications For In-Vehicle Infotainment
13:24:50 [timeless]
simonw: Simon W, from BMW
13:25:03 [timeless]
... we're structured like Audi Electronic Ventures
13:25:06 [timeless]
[ Agenda ]
13:25:33 [timeless]
simonw: Motivation - Why Web & Automotive
13:25:42 [timeless]
... Background - What is webinos
13:25:51 [timeless]
... Our Approach - Vehicle Data for Web Apps
13:25:58 [timeless]
... Live Demo - webinos Automotive Apps
13:26:04 [timeless]
... Open Questions
13:26:05 [timeless]
....
13:26:10 [timeless]
s/..../... .../
13:26:13 [kaz]
s/Simon W/Simon Isenberg/
13:26:29 [timeless]
[ Motivation: Current Landscapes of IVI Systems ]
13:26:39 [timeless]
SimonI: it's really hard to get new services/applications to the market
13:26:47 [timeless]
s/simonw/SimonI/
13:26:49 [timeless]
s/simonw/SimonI/
13:26:59 [timeless]
... it's really hard to personalize the experience while driving
13:27:08 [timeless]
[ Motivation: Ubiquity of the web and the browser ]
13:27:20 [timeless]
SimonI: QNX, Tizen, Firefox, ...
13:27:32 [timeless]
... it's our view that Web is the future
13:27:40 [timeless]
[ Background: What is Webinos? ]
13:27:50 [timeless]
SimonI: webinos funded by European Commission
13:27:58 [timeless]
... 30 partners
13:28:02 [timeless]
... Samsung/Sony
13:28:05 [timeless]
... BMW
13:28:09 [timeless]
... Telefonica
13:28:23 [timeless]
... research institutes
13:28:27 [timeless]
... standardization bodies
13:28:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html Alan
13:28:38 [timeless]
[ Background: Say hello to webinos! ]
13:28:48 [timeless]
SimonI: this is about making apps available
13:28:53 [timeless]
... as a runtime, we're using the browser
13:28:54 [timeless]
[ Background: Say hello to webinos! ]
13:29:02 [timeless]
SimonI: today, we're focusing on IVI
13:29:11 [timeless]
[ Key question: How to get access to vehicle data? ]
13:29:17 [timeless]
[ Our APIs: Design approach ]
13:29:32 [timeless]
SimonI: Standardize APIs instead of duplicating
13:29:37 [timeless]
... GeoLocation API already exists
13:29:43 [timeless]
... speed/position is in GeoLocation
13:29:56 [timeless]
... latitude/longitude orientation is in DeviceOrientation
13:30:03 [timeless]
... we use async model to expose data
13:30:09 [timeless]
... we took a different approach than LG
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13:30:18 [timeless]
... try to minimize resource overhead
13:30:22 [timeless]
... get a CAN message
13:30:35 [timeless]
... this led to two automotive apis
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... - Vehicle API
13:30:42 [timeless]
... - Navigation API
13:30:56 [timeless]
... we originally had Navigation in Vehicle
13:31:05 [timeless]
... but navigation could be on a smart phone
13:31:12 [timeless]
[ Vehicle API: General Concept ]
13:31:23 [timeless]
SimonI: Solely read access
13:31:42 [timeless]
... distinction between static (transmission type) and dynamic (e.g. gear) vehicle data
13:31:51 [timeless]
... register callback handlers
13:32:04 [timeless]
... dynamic data can be retrieved once or registered for updates
13:32:16 [timeless]
[ Vehicle API: Which dynamic data is provided? ]
13:32:37 [timeless]
SimonI: we provide data is packages
13:32:43 [timeless]
... parking sensor all bits together
13:32:49 [timeless]
... tripcomputer all together
13:32:59 [timeless]
... window data all windows at once
13:33:02 [timeless]
... door data
13:33:05 [timeless]
... tire pressure
13:33:34 [timeless]
vehicle.get('tripcomputer', triphandler);
13:33:39 [timeless]
vehicle.addEventListener('tripcomputer', triphandler);
13:33:48 [timeless]
[ Vehicle API: Which static data is provided? ]
13:34:01 [timeless]
SimonI: brand, model, year, fuel, hybrid, ...
13:34:09 [timeless]
[ Navigation API: General Concept ]
13:34:13 [timeless]
SimonI: simple api
13:34:18 [timeless]
... request guidance
13:34:26 [timeless]
... get POI
13:34:34 [timeless]
... set destination
13:34:40 [timeless]
[ Navigation API: Code Example ]
13:34:48 [timeless]
var destinations = [];
13:35:10 [timeless]
webinos.navigation.findDestination("BMW Welt", destinationCB, errorCB);
13:35:17 [timeless]
function destinationCB(pois) {
13:35:18 [timeless]
...
13:35:20 [timeless]
}
13:35:40 [timeless]
webinos.navigation.requestGuidance(...);
13:35:49 [timeless]
[ How to integrate webinos into the vehicle? ]
13:36:02 [timeless]
[ Webinos Core Concept: Separating Application runtime from data access ]
13:36:08 [timeless]
SimonI: we separate browser
13:36:18 [timeless]
... we have a second system on the IVI system
13:36:22 [timeless]
... vehicle data provider
13:36:26 [timeless]
... it's a Node.js application
13:36:47 [timeless]
... we use a WebSocket connection between the browser and the Node.js application
13:37:05 [timeless]
... (JSON-RPC 2.0)
13:37:29 [timeless]
... we created two Node.js addons
13:37:37 [timeless]
... one for MOST bus and one for CAN bus
13:37:45 [timeless]
... the system works on ubuntu
13:37:54 [timeless]
[ Webinos Vehicle Evaluation Platform ]
13:38:01 [timeless]
SimonI: it's based on the Panda board
13:38:09 [timeless]
... iDrive controller
13:38:23 [timeless]
... demonstrator box
13:38:46 [timeless]
[ Webinos vehicle demonstration platform ]
13:38:54 [timeless]
SimonI: two weeks ago we were in Munich and demod it
13:39:04 [timeless]
... with webinos on the head unit and the rear seat entertainment systems
13:39:08 [timeless]
[ Live demo ]
13:39:12 [timeless]
SimonI: we have two demo applications
13:39:19 [timeless]
... Browser based trip computer for in-car head units
13:39:48 [timeless]
... in the picture, the browser based trip computer can be used both on the car and on browser/tablet
13:39:57 [timeless]
s/on browser/on mobile/
13:40:03 [timeless]
... trip planning
13:40:21 [timeless]
... i could have my POIs on the smartphone and then use the navigation api to pass it to the nav system
13:40:29 [timeless]
[ The road ahead of us ]
13:40:42 [timeless]
[ the sign said HTML5 - 1000km ]
13:40:44 [timeless]
[ The road ahead of us ]
13:40:49 [timeless]
SimonI: we are using XAML
13:40:59 [timeless]
SimonI: how will we make it safe?
13:41:03 [timeless]
... to enable write access
13:41:14 [timeless]
... we have to do access-control to enable write access
13:41:25 [timeless]
... and then how do we adapt a web app to be used safely in a vehicle?
13:41:31 [timeless]
... for driver distraction
13:41:35 [timeless]
... adapt input controls
13:41:39 [timeless]
... and also OEM adjustment
13:41:50 [timeless]
... Can we agree on a common interface for vehicle data?
13:41:54 [timeless]
[ Take home message ]
13:41:59 [timeless]
SimonI: i've tried to show a proof of concept
13:42:06 [timeless]
... at this stage, read-only
13:42:10 [timeless]
... security+safety needs to be solved
13:42:17 [timeless]
... UI constraints need to be addressed
13:42:18 [timeless]
adam: thanks
13:42:20 [timeless]
[ Applause ]
13:42:34 [timeless]
SimonI: http://webinos.org
13:42:54 [timeless]
dsr: SimonI, will you put the demo up over hear?
13:42:56 [timeless]
s/hear/here/
13:42:58 [timeless]
SimonI: yeah, sure
13:43:03 [timeless]
... maybe tomorrow
13:43:10 [timeless]
ph: we've seen two apis for vehicle data
13:43:14 [masao]
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13:43:17 [timeless]
... can you contrast your approaches?
13:43:30 [timeless]
SimonI: our API was a starting point for the Genivi work
13:43:33 [timeless]
... they optimized it
13:43:56 [timeless]
... from our perspective
13:44:03 [timeless]
... if i want the information, i probably want it all
13:44:11 [timeless]
... if tire pressure changes
13:44:15 [timeless]
... do i want just one, or all?
13:44:23 [timeless]
... webinos is a research project
13:44:31 [timeless]
... we need to optimize it
13:44:37 [timeless]
... i don't think webinos will survive
13:44:39 [timeless]
[ laughter ]
13:44:47 [timeless]
SimonI: we could have some success
13:45:13 [timeless]
steiger: the api is JS?
13:45:29 [timeless]
... where does it come from?
13:45:35 [timeless]
SimonI: webinos.js is a bootstrapper
13:45:43 [timeless]
... it's injected into the runtime when the application is launched
13:45:58 [timeless]
steiger: either the functionality of webinos.js needs to be added to the browser
13:46:01 [timeless]
SimonI: it's open source
13:46:11 [timeless]
... webinos is under the Apache license
13:46:20 [timeless]
... the CAN/MOST modules aren't
13:46:25 [timeless]
... but the webinos.js is open source
13:46:42 [timeless]
gryc: you would bundle webinos.js with each webapp
13:46:46 [timeless]
... or is it assumed to be part of the platform?
13:46:53 [timeless]
SimonI: it's part of the platform, and injected
13:46:57 [timeless]
gryc: you pass the name
13:47:04 [timeless]
... it's sort of a reflective api
13:47:13 [timeless]
... is there a way to get the list of possible apis?
13:47:23 [timeless]
... i'm assuming it's done so you could change it from the oem level
13:47:34 [timeless]
SimonI: you have different services which are api implementations
13:47:41 [timeless]
... you do discovery to get the vehicle api
13:47:46 [timeless]
... and get an object back
13:48:07 [timeless]
... if you request doors and get an error, then it isn't supported
13:48:12 [timeless]
adam: other questions?
13:48:21 [timeless]
[ None ]
13:48:27 [timeless]
adam: thank you SimonI
13:48:29 [timeless]
[ Applause ]
13:48:40 [timeless]
adam: next presenter is a colleague of mine from Intel
13:48:43 [timeless]
... Mikko
13:48:51 [timeless]
Topic: Tizen IVI Vehicle Data
13:49:03 [timeless]
mikko: Mikko Ylinen, Intel Open Source Technology Center
13:49:08 [timeless]
[ Agenda ]
13:49:20 [timeless]
mikko: Position Paper Highlights
13:49:23 [timeless]
... the api
13:49:27 [timeless]
... demo setup and architecture
13:49:35 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:49:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html timeless
13:50:10 [timeless]
[ Position Paper Highlights (1/2) ]
13:50:12 [timeless]
mikko: we think
13:50:24 [timeless]
... in order to be able to provide automotive rich applications
13:50:32 [timeless]
... an access to IVI system data is needed
13:50:45 [timeless]
... ideally through a standardized web api
13:51:08 [timeless]
... different car manufacturers/car models have different data sets
13:51:33 [timeless]
... we have our own api in Tizen
13:51:42 [timeless]
... but i think we should work together to come up with a standardized api
13:51:48 [timeless]
[ Position Paper Highlights (2/2) ]
13:51:54 [timeless]
mikko: some design principles
13:52:05 [timeless]
... api - lightweight provides getting/setting
13:52:24 [timeless]
... api - minimal set of data items that are base set required for compliance
13:52:34 [timeless]
... api - mechanism for event based updates
13:52:51 [timeless]
... api - implements method to query supported data types for graceful degradation
13:53:46 [timeless]
mikko: Power management is not always critical
13:54:01 [timeless]
... but it makes sense to only ask for updates to data the application needs
13:54:30 [timeless]
[ The API ]
13:54:37 [timeless]
get(eventlist, successCB, errorCB)
13:54:46 [timeless]
set(eventlist, valuelist, successCB, errorCB)
13:55:04 [timeless]
getSupportedEventTYpes(type, writeable, successCB, errorCB)
13:55:12 [timeless]
subscribe(eventlist, successCB, errorCB)
13:55:17 [timeless]
unsubscribe(eventlist, successCB, errorCB)
13:56:06 [timeless]
mikko: this morning, i put a Draft label here
13:56:14 [timeless]
... we're working on improving the API all the time
13:56:24 [timeless]
[ Example code - events ]
13:56:33 [timeless]
function engineSpeedEvent(data) {
13:56:41 [timeless]
var newRPMs = data.value;
13:56:42 [timeless]
}
13:56:47 [timeless]
function onLoad() {
13:57:08 [timeless]
vehicle.subscribe(["speedometer", "engine_speed"], ...
13:57:16 [timeless]
[ Example code - set ]
13:57:25 [timeless]
...
13:57:27 [timeless]
[ API FIXME ]
13:58:30 [timeless_scribe]
scribenick: timeless_scribe
13:58:38 [timeless_scribe]
[ Demo Description ]
13:59:06 [timeless_scribe]
mikko: in the demo, we access logitech steering wheel
13:59:25 [timeless_scribe]
s/timeless_scribe/timeless/G
13:59:46 [timeless_scribe]
... if you sit on the seat, you can see the instrumentation cluster
13:59:51 [timeless_scribe]
... and see how the values change on the UI
13:59:56 [timeless_scribe]
... the values come from the hardware
14:00:05 [timeless_scribe]
[ Tizen IVI Web API Prototype ]
14:00:17 [timeless_scribe]
mikko: Web Applications - "GhostCluser app"
14:00:21 [timeless_scribe]
s/user/uster/
14:00:27 [timeless_scribe]
... any web application
14:00:28 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:00:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html kaz
14:00:50 [timeless_scribe]
... we have a websocket connection to the automotive message broker
14:01:03 [timeless_scribe]
... the automotive message broker has Sources and Sinks
14:01:57 [timeless_scribe]
... this allows you to connect multiple AMB together
14:02:15 [timeless_scribe]
... you could have the joystick data connected to another instance in the cloud
14:02:22 [timeless_scribe]
... to another IVI in the car network
14:03:00 [timeless_scribe]
[ Tizen IVI Web API Final Architecture ]
14:03:11 [timeless_scribe]
mikko: Web Applications - "A Web app"
14:03:37 [timeless_scribe]
... Tizen Web Runtime - WebKit+ JS Core, Vehicle API Plugin
14:03:54 [timeless_scribe]
... WRT sink
14:04:01 [timeless_scribe]
... AMB sink
14:04:02 [timeless_scribe]
...
14:04:08 [timeless_scribe]
[ Performance View ]
14:04:17 [timeless_scribe]
mikko: environment: from HW to AMB core
14:04:21 [timeless_scribe]
s/sink/core/
14:04:41 [timeless_scribe]
... wheel plug-in: 2000+ properties per second, <5% CPU
14:04:52 [timeless_scribe]
... OBD-II plug-in: 80-100 properties per second
14:05:31 [timeless_scribe]
streiger: what cpu?
14:05:33 [timeless_scribe]
mikko: i don't know
14:05:46 [timeless_scribe]
... i propose you see the demo
14:05:55 [timeless_scribe]
... change the gear, and follow the gear number on the screen
14:05:59 [timeless_scribe]
... it feels instant
14:06:01 [timeless_scribe]
... no delays
14:06:13 [timeless_scribe]
[ the Code ]
14:06:18 [timeless_scribe]
mikko: we're using GitHub
14:06:35 [timeless_scribe]
... the API and web app are available
14:06:52 [timeless_scribe]
mikko: that's the end of my presentation
14:06:55 [timeless_scribe]
adam: thanks mikko
14:06:57 [timeless_scribe]
[ Applase ]
14:07:00 [timeless_scribe]
s/ase/ause/
14:07:23 [timeless_scribe]
KKJ: data comes from car and realtime action
14:07:31 [timeless_scribe]
... what about ECU data?
14:07:43 [kaz]
s/KKJ:/woochul/
14:07:57 [kaz]
s/woochul/woochul:/
14:08:10 [timeless_scribe]
... like engine data
14:08:24 [timeless_scribe]
mikko: we can access any data provided by the system
14:08:42 [timeless_scribe]
... if we have a source plugin for AMB, AMB can relay the information further
14:08:51 [timeless_scribe]
woochul: just want to know the limitation
14:08:56 [timeless_scribe]
... how many ECUs could be connected?
14:09:18 [timeless_scribe]
mikko: i see no limitation in how many ECUs could be connected
14:09:26 [timeless_scribe]
... the AMB abstracts this
14:09:49 [timeless_scribe]
KKL: question to the LGE, BMW, and Tizen
14:09:57 [timeless_scribe]
... do you plan to define interfaces, e.g. in WebIDL?
14:10:03 [timeless_scribe]
mikko: I think we're the only one missing WebIDL
14:10:09 [timeless_scribe]
... Genivi is written in WebIDL
14:10:14 [timeless_scribe]
... Webinos has it in WebIDL
14:10:19 [timeless_scribe]
... we're the only ones misbehaving
14:10:22 [timeless_scribe]
... it's on my todo list
14:10:33 [kaz]
s/KKL:/PeterG:/
14:10:35 [timeless_scribe]
ph: how does your approach differ from the other two approaches, and why?
14:10:58 [timeless_scribe]
mikko: our subscribe/unsubscribe apis are different
14:11:06 [timeless_scribe]
ph: but the data model is similar?
14:11:09 [timeless_scribe]
mikko: it's the same
14:11:19 [timeless_scribe]
... the data definitions date to MeeGo
14:11:26 [timeless_scribe]
... we categorized the data that cars could provide
14:11:34 [timeless_scribe]
... and now we've just taken that into web space
14:11:40 [timeless_scribe]
adam: other questions?
14:11:55 [timeless_scribe]
... we have 3 sets of APIs, we could start a WG
14:12:00 [timeless_scribe]
... thanks mikko
14:12:02 [timeless_scribe]
[ Applause ]
14:12:09 [timeless_scribe]
adam: we have one last presenter
14:12:14 [timeless_scribe]
Topic: The InCar API
14:12:44 [timeless_scribe]
alex: Alex RRR, from AKQA
14:12:52 [timeless_scribe]
... my colleague SSS
14:13:02 [timeless_scribe]
... we're interested in building applications on top of the technology
14:13:07 [timeless_scribe]
... a few slides about where we come from
14:13:14 [timeless_scribe]
s/SSS/Paul SST/
14:13:22 [timeless_scribe]
... and then pass to Paul for where we go in the future
14:13:33 [timeless_scribe]
[ The future inspires us. we work to inspire. ]
14:13:49 [simon]
simon has joined #webandauto
14:13:54 [timeless_scribe]
alex: we've been around for 18 years
14:14:00 [timeless_scribe]
[ Ideas and innovation ]
14:14:12 [timeless_scribe]
alex: we have 10, now 11 offices with 1200 employees
14:14:30 [timeless_scribe]
... we pick people focussed on innovation
14:14:38 [timeless_scribe]
... starting on the left, web design builds
14:14:48 [timeless_scribe]
... example w built for Ferarri
14:14:57 [timeless_scribe]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:14:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html timeless_scribe
14:15:12 [timeless_scribe]
... we have an html configurator
14:15:26 [timeless_scribe]
... this is a fake (jpeg)
14:15:38 [timeless_scribe]
... we're interested in how html apps can make communication for end users
14:15:53 [timeless_scribe]
... we worked w/ Fiat to make an ecology index for drivers
14:16:02 [timeless_scribe]
... to "improve their eco score"
14:16:12 [timeless_scribe]
... we were one of the first companies to do this
14:16:19 [timeless_scribe]
[ Connected Car ]
14:16:26 [timeless_scribe]
paul: alex spoke about AKQA
14:16:31 [timeless_scribe]
... we're interested in standards
14:16:36 [timeless_scribe]
... they allow people to build things
14:16:47 [timeless_scribe]
... to not have to build products on a fragmented industry
14:17:06 [timeless_scribe]
... we do standards approach for where we work
14:17:11 [timeless_scribe]
... we did it for Volkswagen
14:17:18 [timeless_scribe]
... i'm working on MMI
14:17:25 [timeless_scribe]
... we do this for standards
14:17:35 [timeless_scribe]
... i've worked for a lot of different companies globally
14:17:43 [timeless_scribe]
... been w/ AKQA for a couple of years
14:17:57 [timeless_scribe]
... we want to take the idea of the car to the next level, the Internet of Things
14:18:00 [Alan]
s/Paul SST/Paul Slattery/
14:18:06 [timeless_scribe]
... the connected car is our vision
14:18:16 [timeless_scribe]
... we assume there will be a standard
14:18:29 [timeless_scribe]
... the amount of data being produced is massive
14:18:33 [timeless_scribe]
... more data than seen before
14:18:44 [timeless_scribe]
... Quantified Self wants an API for the Person
14:18:53 [timeless_scribe]
... car creates physical journies
14:19:02 [timeless_scribe]
... which can be related to physical journeys
14:19:05 [timeless_scribe]
s/nies/neys/
14:19:17 [timeless_scribe]
[ Why standardise? ]
14:19:49 [Alan]
s/Alex RRR/Alex Ajao/g
14:20:16 [timeless_scribe]
[ Benefits for the driver ]
14:20:18 [timeless_scribe]
PaulS: the car is an extension of the digital life
14:20:24 [timeless_scribe]
s/paul:/PaulS:/
14:20:39 [timeless_scribe]
[ Benefits for the industry ]
14:20:50 [timeless_scribe]
PaulS: there's an ability to share costs
14:20:56 [timeless_scribe]
... research and development costs
14:21:02 [timeless_scribe]
... we can stand on shoulders of giants
14:21:15 [timeless_scribe]
... webinos speaker said it may not make it into the car itself
14:21:21 [timeless_scribe]
... but things will be stronger for it
14:21:30 [timeless_scribe]
PaulS: being able to create alliances across industries
14:21:37 [timeless_scribe]
... will open up businesses
14:21:41 [timeless_scribe]
... maybe gryc said
14:21:59 [timeless_scribe]
... having standardization lets you build on top of things and differentiate there
14:22:04 [timeless_scribe]
[ 2018 Workday ]
14:22:08 [timeless_scribe]
PaulS: this is part of astory
14:22:15 [timeless_scribe]
s/ astory/a story/
14:22:29 [timeless_scribe]
... 2018; i'm a member of a mobility service
14:22:32 [timeless_scribe]
... i don't own a car
14:22:38 [timeless_scribe]
... i drive a different one each day
14:22:43 [timeless_scribe]
... i use my device/google glasses
14:22:45 [timeless_scribe]
... i book a car
14:22:47 [DanielAustin]
DanielAustin has joined #webandauto
14:22:51 [timeless_scribe]
... i get 15 minutes to get to the car
14:22:55 [timeless_scribe]
[ Digital Key ]
14:23:07 [timeless_scribe]
PaulS: maybe the car lights flash before i get in
14:23:13 [timeless_scribe]
[ Cloud settings ]
14:23:19 [timeless_scribe]
PaulS: my profile is downloaded from the cloud
14:23:27 [timeless_scribe]
... apps download to the car dashboard
14:23:46 [timeless_scribe]
... before that, there's a message from the OEM about a new carpack
14:23:56 [timeless_scribe]
... "do you want to download it" -- it's more efficient
14:23:58 [timeless_scribe]
... I say "yes"
14:24:07 [timeless_scribe]
PaulS: i have a dashboard that reflects how i want to drive the car
14:24:20 [timeless_scribe]
[ Integration with digital life ]
14:24:28 [timeless_scribe]
PaulS: i have to travel 100km to a meeting outside Berlin
14:24:36 [timeless_scribe]
... a suggested journey becomes available via HMI
14:24:43 [timeless_scribe]
... taking into account traffic+weather
14:24:48 [timeless_scribe]
... update says you'll make meeting on time
14:24:57 [timeless_scribe]
... i set off on my way w/ nav system guiding me
14:25:07 [timeless_scribe]
... there's a context aware trigger when i reach the autoban
14:25:15 [timeless_scribe]
... my outlook application shows me an update
14:25:23 [timeless_scribe]
... your meeting will be delayed for an hour
14:25:48 [timeless_scribe]
s/autoban/autoban (where the car thinks it's safe to show me the update)/
14:26:01 [timeless_scribe]
... the system asks me if i want to take a scenic route near a POI
14:26:05 [timeless_scribe]
... I do
14:26:08 [timeless_scribe]
... I take a voice note
14:26:14 [timeless_scribe]
... I listen to the voice note later
14:26:26 [timeless_scribe]
... I take the meeting
14:26:31 [timeless_scribe]
[ Become a better driver ]
14:26:35 [timeless_scribe]
PaulS: when I get home
14:26:35 [kaz]
s/autoban/Autobahn/
14:26:56 [timeless_scribe]
PaulS: the car wipes my profile off
14:27:10 [harukon_]
harukon_ has joined #webandauto
14:27:15 [timeless_scribe]
... because the car updated, i'm curious and check to see if the update improved my eco footprint
14:27:18 [timeless_scribe]
... i discover that it did
14:27:27 [timeless_scribe]
... if we can bring an industry standard
14:27:35 [timeless_scribe]
... our target shouldn't just be music
14:27:39 [timeless_scribe]
... but better drivers
14:27:45 [timeless_scribe]
... standards can enable that
14:27:52 [timeless_scribe]
[ AKQA: Connected Car Partner ]
14:28:03 [timeless_scribe]
PaulS: that example was 2018, but maybe it could be 2015
14:28:07 [timeless_scribe]
... thank you
14:28:09 [timeless_scribe]
[ Applause ]
14:28:23 [timeless_scribe]
adam: do you think it'll be really 2018 before we get a standard out?
14:28:31 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: 2018 before the standard gets into cars
14:28:50 [timeless_scribe]
ph: in your paper, you mentioned apis you defined/worked on?
14:29:01 [timeless_scribe]
PaulS: on ecodrive, we did a lot of work using USB
14:29:05 [timeless_scribe]
... speaking direct to CAN bus
14:29:17 [timeless_scribe]
... we're looking for an API to do that in the real world
14:29:21 [timeless_scribe]
... a lot of this i proposal driven
14:29:29 [timeless_scribe]
... when customers come to us, they want a product to go to market
14:29:33 [timeless_scribe]
... we had a proposed api
14:29:45 [timeless_scribe]
... we've done prototype work for companies
14:29:54 [timeless_scribe]
... you want a layer of abstraction
14:30:00 [timeless_scribe]
... it's important to come up w/ an abstraction
14:30:07 [timeless_scribe]
... it frees up things to improve
14:30:19 [timeless_scribe]
... our goal is to take things from W3C and do cool stuff
14:30:36 [timeless_scribe]
NNN: NNW from Toyota
14:30:43 [timeless_scribe]
... we have a similar video on youtube
14:30:46 [kaz]
s/NNN/Ryuji Wakikawa/
14:30:48 [timeless_scribe]
... instead of 2018, we said 20XX
14:30:59 [kaz]
s/Ryuji Wakikawa/Ryuji/
14:31:12 [timeless_scribe]
... we have to agree on which data to open to the developer
14:31:16 [kaz]
s/NNW/Ryuji Wakikawa/
14:31:24 [timeless_scribe]
... it's very different to define the dataset
14:31:31 [timeless_scribe]
... we use different units in different regions
14:31:40 [timeless_scribe]
... MPH v. km/h
14:31:54 [timeless_scribe]
... this may be out of scope for W3C
14:31:59 [timeless_scribe]
... maybe for some other SDO
14:32:04 [timeless_scribe]
... this is a question for OEMs
14:32:08 [timeless_scribe]
... can we agree on this dataset?
14:32:16 [timeless_scribe]
adam: any OEMs want to comment?
14:32:27 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: not an OEM, but i have an opinion
14:32:35 [timeless_scribe]
... comparing Get/Set
14:32:39 [timeless_scribe]
... it's the most flexible
14:32:43 [timeless_scribe]
... but it basically isn't a standard
14:32:48 [timeless_scribe]
... you could adapt to that
14:32:55 [timeless_scribe]
... and each car vendor could do their own things
14:33:04 [timeless_scribe]
... there's value in coming up w/ a compromise
14:33:24 [timeless_scribe]
... it seems like it's possible to define properties
14:33:33 [timeless_scribe]
... and define a way to extend it
14:33:42 [timeless_scribe]
... coming to a common understanding about what specific times of data
14:33:46 [timeless_scribe]
... is different, but valuable
14:33:53 [timeless_scribe]
... so you don't have to make every interface 100% generic
14:34:10 [timeless_scribe]
kaz: Kaz, W3C MMI WG
14:34:22 [timeless_scribe]
... we're now working very hard for extending the data format
14:34:31 [timeless_scribe]
... it'd be great if you could give us feedback
14:34:36 [timeless_scribe]
PaulS: we'd love to
14:34:53 [timeless_scribe]
... one challenge is contextualization
14:34:57 [timeless_scribe]
... we should get together
14:34:59 [timeless_scribe]
kaz: thank you
14:35:02 [timeless_scribe]
adam: last questions?
14:35:04 [timeless_scribe]
[ None ]
14:35:14 [masao]
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14:35:14 [timeless_scribe]
[ Applause ]
14:35:19 [timeless_scribe]
adam: back at the top of the hour
15:02:40 [timeless_scribe]
Topic: Day 1 Summary
15:02:48 [timeless_scribe]
dsr: goal is to come up with rough consensus
15:03:00 [timeless_scribe]
... adam and myself will write up a report
15:03:08 [timeless_scribe]
[ Extending the Web Platform to Automotive ]
15:03:18 [timeless_scribe]
dsr: there's issues of Safety
15:03:21 [timeless_scribe]
... and what that means
15:03:28 [timeless_scribe]
... there's a risk of liability for OEMs
15:03:37 [timeless_scribe]
... which could trigger legistlation which dampens the marketplace
15:03:46 [timeless_scribe]
... while W3C focuses on technical standards
15:03:55 [timeless_scribe]
... we need to be conscious of legistlation
15:04:04 [timeless_scribe]
... I was at a conference talking about situational awareness
15:04:11 [timeless_scribe]
... rather than "web applications are dangerous"
15:04:18 [timeless_scribe]
... "can we make safer/better drivers"
15:04:30 [timeless_scribe]
... issue of privacy of user data
15:04:39 [timeless_scribe]
... - not holding data in shared vehicles
15:04:45 [timeless_scribe]
... even users in the same family
15:04:54 [timeless_scribe]
... also for authenticating data in the cloud
15:05:04 [timeless_scribe]
... is authenticating users specific to models of a car
15:05:06 [timeless_scribe]
... or cross vendor?
15:05:17 [timeless_scribe]
... Gemalto discussed security/threat models
15:05:21 [timeless_scribe]
... there's issue of permissions
15:05:25 [timeless_scribe]
... there's XACML
15:05:29 [timeless_scribe]
... there are other approaches
15:05:30 [naomi]
naomi has joined #webandauto
15:05:37 [timeless_scribe]
... do we have agreement on how to proceed?
15:05:43 [timeless_scribe]
... what does it mean to authenticate applications?
15:05:48 [timeless_scribe]
... is it just signatures?
15:05:55 [timeless_scribe]
... how do you enable differentiated services
15:06:13 [timeless_scribe]
... end user v. OEM perspectives
15:06:31 [timeless_scribe]
... users have phone, tablets, tvs
15:06:40 [timeless_scribe]
... they want some consistent way to manage applications/services
15:06:46 [timeless_scribe]
... and how they interact w/ friends + colleagues
15:06:51 [timeless_scribe]
... what are the technical implications
15:06:55 [timeless_scribe]
... personalization v. branding
15:07:05 [timeless_scribe]
... individuals want car start to be personalized
15:07:14 [timeless_scribe]
... app developer wants to write an application that runs on multiple cars
15:07:17 [timeless_scribe]
... how is that managed?
15:07:22 [timeless_scribe]
... templates/css/js libraries?
15:07:29 [timeless_scribe]
... multi-screen interfaces
15:07:42 [timeless_scribe]
... head-unit, phone, rear-seat, heads-up
15:07:54 [timeless_scribe]
... multi-modal: speech, spatial audio, visual, tactile
15:08:03 [timeless_scribe]
... how to minimize cognitive load
15:08:17 [timeless_scribe]
[ Further considerations ]
15:08:22 [timeless_scribe]
dsr: talks about web apis
15:08:27 [timeless_scribe]
... seems like a lot of interest
15:08:32 [timeless_scribe]
... hoping we can agree on the details
15:08:41 [timeless_scribe]
... perhaps it's time to start work on standardization
15:08:45 [timeless_scribe]
... - to avoid market fragmentation
15:08:57 [timeless_scribe]
... high enough level to insultate developers from low level variations
15:09:08 [timeless_scribe]
... security considerations
15:09:14 [timeless_scribe]
... different places to run apps
15:09:17 [timeless_scribe]
... cloud/remote ui
15:09:22 [timeless_scribe]
... fallback for network brownout
15:09:37 [timeless_scribe]
... application runs in phone/tablet
15:09:40 [timeless_scribe]
... nBox
15:09:43 [timeless_scribe]
... local server
15:10:20 [timeless_scribe]
... talk about sensors in car/roadside
15:10:28 [timeless_scribe]
... crowd based sources?
15:10:32 [timeless_scribe]
... M2M?
15:10:44 [timeless_scribe]
... Driver distraction/context management
15:10:52 [timeless_scribe]
... which applications run in foreground/background
15:11:06 [timeless_scribe]
... if you approach a junction and want to focus driver on it
15:11:20 [timeless_scribe]
... could nav system lower volume on audio system?
15:11:29 [timeless_scribe]
... having the car observe you?
15:11:33 [timeless_scribe]
... gaze tracking
15:11:38 [timeless_scribe]
... to assess driver alertness
15:11:50 [timeless_scribe]
... logging information
15:12:02 [timeless_scribe]
... are users willing to accept logging?
15:12:06 [timeless_scribe]
... application packaging
15:12:15 [timeless_scribe]
[ Effective Standardization ]
15:12:31 [timeless_scribe]
dsr: there wasn't appropriate engagement between browsers and telcos
15:12:36 [timeless_scribe]
... several attempts were made
15:12:44 [timeless_scribe]
... ensuring all stakeholders are involved
15:12:50 [timeless_scribe]
... it's less costly in the long run
15:12:58 [timeless_scribe]
... focus on low hanging fruit
15:13:05 [timeless_scribe]
... simple enough data models?
15:13:10 [timeless_scribe]
... make progress and build momentum
15:13:15 [timeless_scribe]
... and maybe market will clarify
15:13:26 [timeless_scribe]
... avoid premature standardization
15:13:34 [timeless_scribe]
... how to achieve best practices
15:13:40 [timeless_scribe]
... Genivi - W3C
15:13:52 [timeless_scribe]
... joint partcipiation
15:13:59 [timeless_scribe]
... formal liaisons
15:14:08 [timeless_scribe]
... - joint participation is very effective
15:14:20 [timeless_scribe]
... W3C WG would require companies to be members
15:14:36 [timeless_scribe]
... if you join W3C, it's important to have engineers in multiple WGs
15:15:25 [timeless_scribe]
dsr: for Vehicle APIs, what are the easy interfaces?
15:15:52 [timeless_scribe]
gryc: i think there are some areas where there are pretty common things
15:15:59 [timeless_scribe]
... access to media player is an area
15:16:05 [timeless_scribe]
... there's some set that are going to be common
15:16:11 [timeless_scribe]
... some will have extensions required
15:16:17 [timeless_scribe]
... that model will apply everywhere
15:16:27 [timeless_scribe]
... some will have some things, some will not have everything
15:16:36 [timeless_scribe]
... breaking it down into the basic categories
15:16:42 [timeless_scribe]
... and then having extensibility
15:17:49 [timeless_scribe]
Josh_Soref: surely gears are easy? only 10?
15:17:59 [timeless_scribe]
[ lots of complaints that it isn't that simple ]
15:18:04 [timeless_scribe]
dsr: what are the UCs for these APIs?
15:18:19 [timeless_scribe]
... are there lots of UCs for specific APIs?
15:18:50 [timeless_scribe]
SDQ: SDL
15:18:56 [naomi]
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15:19:00 [timeless_scribe]
... afaict, the guys from LGE will know better
15:19:07 [timeless_scribe]
... in this case, the approach was trying to generalize the data
15:19:16 [timeless_scribe]
... it was not UC driven
15:19:21 [timeless_scribe]
... using the Gears example
15:19:28 [timeless_scribe]
... it was very enlightening
15:19:32 [timeless_scribe]
... it's a never ending story
15:20:00 [timeless_scribe]
... 3 column table
15:20:05 [timeless_scribe]
... name, data type, description
15:20:11 [timeless_scribe]
... what it means when it's read/written
15:20:19 [timeless_scribe]
... updates, how to handle, how to fire events
15:20:26 [timeless_scribe]
... another thing is how to group multiple rows
15:20:35 [timeless_scribe]
... mentioned some vehicles will have, others will not
15:20:39 [timeless_scribe]
... data needs to be modular
15:20:45 [timeless_scribe]
... so an app can know what can be used
15:21:08 [timeless_scribe]
... what data would be useful for webapps to use
15:21:14 [timeless_scribe]
... how to make it modular, and how to access this data
15:21:15 [Alan]
scribenick: Alan
15:21:40 [Alan]
zzzzz:I would like some experiences from W3C and other orgs.
15:21:54 [timeless_scribe]
s/zzzzz/marcin/
15:21:55 [Alan]
...We just finished a standard that was started 4 years ago.
15:22:09 [kaz]
s/SDQ:/pavel:/
15:22:12 [Alan]
...Started with a set of requirements that were brought forward.
15:22:33 [Alan]
...Some other orgs are using other tools where people bring ideas and they get a lot of work.
15:22:38 [kaz]
s/SDL/Pavel Konopelko, Visteon/
15:22:46 [Alan]
...People are thinking they can maybe get this done in a year.
15:22:59 [timeless_scribe]
s/work/proposals/
15:23:02 [Alan]
...Participants get to look at it for four weeks then vote on what they want to implement.
15:23:19 [Alan]
...Here we have three proposals. What would people say / vote.
15:23:38 [Alan]
...See if we have consensus here. If there is none we need to work on that or we won't succeed.
15:24:00 [Alan]
...People need to be openminded and do trade off to see how we come together.
15:24:43 [Alan]
yyyyyy: I just want to add that when you take an action across the three approaches that the Webinos is a subset of Genivi.
15:24:55 [Alan]
DaveR: It could be a case of subsetting as well.
15:24:58 [timeless_scribe]
s/that simple/that simple - some have no gears, some have 4wd also/
15:25:06 [timeless_scribe]
s/DaveR:/dsr:/G
15:25:26 [Alan]
...typically the processes allow you to control work and scope.
15:25:42 [Alan]
...Use cases are very important and allow you to say we're doing this and not that.
15:26:20 [Alan]
Gyrc: The value in having the use cases and going back to the gear boxes, most applications have some core things like am I moving or am I still.
15:26:34 [Alan]
...That one simple bolean decision could be very complex.
15:26:42 [harukon]
harukon has joined #webandauto
15:26:49 [Alan]
...I think figuring out the use cases we want to tackle is not a bad idea.
15:26:55 [timeless_scribe]
s/Gyrc/gryc/
15:27:16 [Alan]
Adam: What I'd really like to understand is do the OEMs in the room agree that this is important to them either now or in the future?
15:27:25 [timeless_scribe]
s/Adam:/adam:/
15:27:29 [Alan]
...Without the OEMs help we're not going to get very far.
15:27:43 [Alan]
...We'll need them involved to make this all work.
15:28:22 [Alan]
Nils: I quite like Andy's approach of Use Case based. It shows that it may be complex discussion and on the other you may have useless functions.
15:28:41 [Alan]
...Maybe the Use Case approach is far better because you can see if it's possible.
15:28:53 [Alan]
...We can find a similar extraction of the API.
15:28:55 [timeless_scribe]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:28:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html timeless_scribe
15:29:08 [timeless_scribe]
s/Nils:/nils:/
15:29:16 [Alan]
...It's not easy or a problem we can solve at the top level. There are abstraction levels below.
15:29:25 [masao]
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15:29:36 [Alan]
...What I'm saying is there are architectural issues that need to be resolved first.
15:29:46 [Alan]
...Start with Use Cases and go from there.
15:29:54 [Alan]
[Gives several examples]
15:30:13 [Alan]
...Stuff that's inside the QNX similator.
15:30:33 [Alan]
...If we spend three years and can't get the data to the API it has no benefit for anyone.
15:30:53 [Alan]
gggg: I think a Use Case approach is good, but what about Use Cases you don't envision now?
15:31:14 [Alan]
...In our case it's getting them into the browser and available in an easy way.
15:31:40 [Alan]
DanA: Not to challange you, but why does it have to be in a browser?
15:31:59 [Alan]
...You're making an assumption it has to be a browser, why not some other user agent?
15:32:12 [Alan]
gggg: It's just a model and opinion for now.
15:32:43 [Alan]
DanA: The current BMW apps are based on a platform. So just wondering why you're going from a platform model to a browser model.
15:33:04 [Alan]
gggg: Some are running in a browser, some are integrated into the native HMI.
15:34:02 [Alan]
hhhh: I think there are some specific applications like these APIs. I agree on these Use Cases, I prefer to start there.
15:34:26 [naomi]
s/hhhh/ryuji/
15:34:37 [Alan]
...I don't know how we can proceed this activity, I don't know what the risks are, but maybe we start with the data that's available and public?
15:34:54 [Alan]
...We can probably start from basic activity and converge on API.
15:35:22 [Alan]
vvvv: Before this March I was working for Nissan and implemented many solutiosn.
15:35:26 [timeless_scribe]
s/gggg:/maximilian:/g
15:35:40 [Alan]
...OEM Vendors may not want ot open their data to the public.
15:35:45 [naomi]
s/vvvv/nobe/
15:35:59 [Alan]
...They may not want to open transmission data.
15:36:21 [Alan]
...But some of the other things they might want to. Areas where they don't compete.
15:36:41 [Alan]
...We can take data like wipers or outside data.
15:37:04 [Alan]
...Those are of benefit to the market / customers. Generally the vendors would agree they can open this data.
15:37:27 [timeless_scribe]
s/ ot / to /
15:38:04 [Alan]
nils: As I said, there are two different worlds. There is the canvas world which only has data on the canvas.
15:38:14 [timeless_scribe]
s/canvas/CAN bus/
15:38:16 [timeless_scribe]
s/canvas/CAN bus/
15:38:39 [Alan]
...Mixing these three Use Cases which bring Web data to the vehicle is a problem as there are two different architectures.
15:38:56 [Alan]
...Some we can solve (entertainment systems) others we can't.
15:39:12 [Alan]
...Some data is not so easy to open up because of complexity.
15:40:11 [Alan]
Jean-Marc: What we are trying to do with standardization of the API is quite different.
15:40:27 [Alan]
...First we have to insure that the APIs we're talking about are very flexible.
15:40:41 [Alan]
...We shouldn't target the standardization of everything.
15:40:49 [Alan]
...Than might frighten people away.
15:41:04 [bgidon]
Jean Marc Temmos (Visteon)
15:41:05 [Alan]
dsr: That's why I said focus on places where consensus is possible.
15:41:26 [Alan]
...Another aspect is security. In what cases do you givec applications to which APIs.
15:41:35 [timeless_scribe]
s/givec/give/
15:41:47 [Alan]
...Do we have any chance of coming together on that or is it something we shouldn't approach.
15:42:05 [Alan]
...I suspect we may have to put something about security in a Working Group charter.
15:42:18 [Alan]
[crickets]
15:42:56 [Alan]
josh: Of the car vendors, how many want to have their own appstore?
15:43:16 [timeless_scribe]
s/josh:/Josh_Soref:/
15:43:21 [Alan]
5555: Maybe a different kind of appstore around downloading the applications.
15:43:43 [naomi]
s/5555:/nobe:/
15:43:51 [Alan]
...Some OEM vendors may want to go that way.
15:44:11 [naomi]
Tsuguo Nobe, Intel
15:44:27 [Alan]
Josh: The reason I ask is that if people were going to have their own apps store security wouldn't be an issue.
15:44:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html Alan
15:44:46 [timeless_scribe]
s/Josh:/Josh_Soref:/
15:45:17 [Alan]
dsr: You might start with a small set of applications that are very hard to put together.
15:45:17 [timeless_scribe]
nils: oFono has an app store
15:45:25 [timeless_scribe]
s/timeless_scribe/scribe/
15:45:50 [timeless_scribe]
s/app store/app store -- and if a company doesn't have an app store, people will find a way to install apps anyway/
15:46:02 [Alan]
dsr: That might be a second phase. The question is how do we keep the applicactions refreshed. Different users have different requirements.
15:46:04 [bgidon]
Pierre Girard (Gemalto): Renault has some plans to launch their App store
15:46:27 [Alan]
nobo: OEM vendors have to take the responsibility to check their apps.
15:46:40 [Alan]
...They have to check the source to make sure it's safe.
15:46:40 [timeless_scribe]
s/oFono/Renault
15:46:48 [timeless_scribe]
s/nils:/girard:/
15:46:54 [naomi]
s/nobo:/nobe:/
15:47:27 [bgidon]
Ludovic (Renault):
15:47:37 [Alan]
Pierre: I want to add something about a link between the API definition and security. If we share the same API then it would run for every OEM.
15:47:53 [Alan]
...So maybe it's a way to manage a stardard API for applications.
15:48:10 [Alan]
dsr: One topic we haven't discussed is integration of the head unit with the phone.
15:48:30 [Alan]
...Is this an area where we have some interest? We talked about MirrorLink as example.
15:48:46 [Alan]
...It seems there is some tension and I'm wondering what we might do there.
15:49:36 [Alan]
kkitagawa NTT Docomo: The mobile apps are cheaper than the car apps. If the user gets a new car and wants to integrate the handset.
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15:50:15 [Alan]
...The development of the Web Technologies with the automotive may take years. Due to security, etc. Not an easy upgrade.
15:50:36 [Alan]
...Safety is key.
15:51:13 [Alan]
nobe: Two factors - how to integrate with smart phone and definitions.
15:51:30 [Alan]
...Communications company may embed a module which is quite expensive.
15:51:47 [Alan]
...It may be included to deliver collision reporting systems, etc.
15:52:01 [Alan]
...Usesd for safety and security point of view.
15:52:08 [Alan]
s/Usesd/Used/
15:52:45 [Alan]
...If there is some big module embedded then upgrading is a problem. The reality is that embedded phone module be included for certain apps.
15:53:00 [Alan]
...OEM Vendors have obligation to update module.
15:53:13 [Alan]
...This is a feature we have to care about - to embed or not.
15:53:54 [Alan]
nobe: Other isssue is how to make connection? Wifi or bluetooth. OEM vendors need to think what is technology that will last 10 years of someone buying the vehicle.
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15:54:15 [Alan]
dsr: It's possible that different companies have different opinions.
15:54:27 [Alan]
...M2M communications may drive these prices down.
15:54:58 [Alan]
rrrrr: I think there are several head unit to phone conversations going on within other areas.
15:55:06 [timeless_scribe]
s/rrrrr:/gryc:/
15:55:14 [Alan]
...We should focus on other areas where there is more passion.
15:55:38 [Alan]
sakazawa: We should separate the technology issues.
15:56:09 [Alan]
...If an application needs to communicate to head unit then certain application should be run.
15:56:32 [Alan]
dsr: What I was wondering is if an app is running on the phone how does it have presence awareness.
15:56:46 [Alan]
...It may not be solved by W3C but it should be addressed.
15:57:05 [Alan]
...Thanks for your time, the meeting starts tomorrow at 0845.
15:57:24 [Alan]
Adam: We're going to have the networking event that will start at 5P and will be up here.
15:57:31 [timeless_scribe]
s/Adam:/adam:/
15:57:50 [timeless_scribe]
[ Applause ]
15:57:54 [Alan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:57:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html Alan
15:57:55 [timeless_scribe]
s/timeless_scribe/scribe/
15:58:01 [timeless_scribe]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:58:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/14-webandauto-minutes.html timeless_scribe
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