IRC log of indie-ui on 2012-11-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:58:26 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #indie-ui
17:58:26 [RRSAgent]
logging to
17:58:28 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:58:28 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #indie-ui
17:58:30 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be INDIE
17:58:30 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_Indie()1:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
17:58:31 [trackbot]
Meeting: Independent User Interface Task Force Teleconference
17:58:31 [trackbot]
Date: 14 November 2012
17:58:39 [Zakim]
WAI_Indie()1:00PM has now started
17:58:45 [Zakim]
17:58:58 [janina]
zakim, ??P21 is Janina
17:58:58 [Zakim]
+Janina; got it
17:59:02 [janina]
Meeting: IndieUI Task Force telecon
17:59:02 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
17:59:02 [janina]
agenda+ Telecon Time Scheduling
17:59:02 [janina]
agenda+ Editor's Draft?
17:59:02 [janina]
agenda+ Closed Issues
17:59:05 [janina]
agenda+ Open Issues
17:59:07 [janina]
agenda+ User Needs Capture
17:59:10 [janina]
agenda+ Scribe for our Next Teleconference (on 28 November)
17:59:12 [janina]
agenda+ Be Done
17:59:41 [andy]
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18:00:13 [Zakim]
18:00:37 [Zakim]
18:00:49 [clown]
zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:00:49 [Zakim]
+Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
18:02:03 [clown]
Zakim: I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:02:11 [clown]
Zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:02:11 [Zakim]
ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:02:20 [clown]
zakim, who's noisy?
18:02:30 [Zakim]
clown, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Janina (15%)
18:02:40 [clown]
zakim, who's noisy?
18:02:51 [Zakim]
clown, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Janina (29%), Joseph_Scheuhammer (59%)
18:03:40 [clown]
zakim, who's noisy?
18:03:51 [Zakim]
clown, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Janina (14%)
18:05:00 [janina]
zakim, take up item 1
18:05:00 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Telecon Time Scheduling" taken up [from janina]
18:05:13 [Lachy]
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18:06:24 [jcraig]
jcraig has joined #indie-ui
18:07:13 [Zakim]
18:07:22 [jcraig]
Zakim, Apple has jcraig
18:07:22 [Zakim]
+jcraig; got it
18:07:30 [Zakim]
18:07:31 [jcraig]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
18:07:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Janina, ??P34, Joseph_Scheuhammer, [Apple], Rich
18:07:31 [Zakim]
[Apple] has jcraig
18:07:54 [jcraig]
Zakim, P34 is Janina
18:07:54 [Zakim]
sorry, jcraig, I do not recognize a party named 'P34'
18:08:10 [jcraig]
Zakim, ??P34 is Janina
18:08:10 [Zakim]
+Janina; got it
18:08:39 [Caroline_J]
Caroline_J has joined #indie-ui
18:08:47 [andy]
is this me?
18:08:51 [janina]
zakim, who's on the phone?
18:08:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Janina, Janina.a, Joseph_Scheuhammer, [Apple], Rich
18:08:53 [Zakim]
[Apple] has jcraig
18:09:07 [jcraig]
Zakim, Janina.a is andy
18:09:07 [Zakim]
+andy; got it
18:09:21 [clown]
zakim, who's on the phone>
18:09:21 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's on the phone>', clown
18:09:29 [clown]
zakim, who's on the phone?
18:09:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Janina, andy, Joseph_Scheuhammer, [Apple], Rich
18:09:30 [Zakim]
[Apple] has jcraig
18:09:50 [richardschwerdtfeger]
richardschwerdtfeger has joined #indie-ui
18:10:04 [clown]
scribenick: clown
18:10:23 [clown]
18:10:37 [clown]
Topic: time of meeting
18:10:52 [clown]
JS: at f2f in lyons discussed changing meeting time to be later.
18:11:00 [clown]
JS: europeans liked this.
18:11:18 [clown]
JS 23:00 CET, 22:00UTC 5:00pm EST
18:11:42 [clown]
JS: can no longer commit to that time as I have another commitment to travel to.
18:11:49 [clown]
JS: wonder is 4pm EST would work.
18:12:09 [clown]
JC: San-wang should be in on this discussioin (in Tokyo).
18:12:18 [clown]
JC: let's put a proposed time in the list.
18:12:21 [Zakim]
18:12:45 [clown]
JS: no objections to 4pm? That gets back when we get to daylight saving time
18:13:00 [clown]
JS: 5am in Tokyo in daylight time.
18:13:01 [Caroline_J]
zakim, ??P11 is Caroline
18:13:01 [Zakim]
+Caroline; got it
18:13:13 [clown]
JS: or, stay with 5pm EDT but on another call.
18:13:14 [jcraig]
Zakim, ??P11 is Caroline
18:13:14 [Zakim]
I already had ??P11 as Caroline, jcraig
18:13:25 [clown]
s/but on another call/but on another day/
18:13:36 [clown]
JS: we're taking about 9 or 10pm in London.
18:13:45 [clown]
CJ: that's ok.
18:14:10 [clown]
JC: every other time?
18:14:15 [clown]
JS: not clear.
18:14:31 [clown]
JS: I think it would be acceptable.
18:14:48 [clown]
JC: if it is every other time, then let's get a time that works for Tokyo and for Europe
18:15:10 [clown]
JS: I will explore tokyo plus US
18:15:19 [clown]
JS: will take this to email
18:15:31 [clown]
JS: other days of the week that are possible?
18:15:36 [clown]
AH: there are for me.
18:15:41 [jcraig]
s/get a time that works for Tokyo and for Europe/get a time that works for US+Tokyo and another time that works for US+Europe/
18:16:00 [clown]
JS: let's take to email discussion.
18:16:01 [smaug_]
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18:16:11 [clown]
Topic: Editor's Draft
18:16:31 [clown]
JC: I'm not thru all the edits disucssed at the f2f
18:16:47 [clown]
JC: I've posted some to the list, and we can discuss those.
18:17:08 [clown]
JC: removed DOM changed request events
18:17:33 [clown]
JC: that requires the AT to know a lot about how the web app works, and that can't be expected.
18:17:54 [clown]
JC: next big edit was adding the UIPanRequest event
18:18:13 [clown]
JC: now a delta-x and y, and that makes more sense.
18:18:22 [smaug]
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18:18:25 [clown]
JC: added a Zoom event.
18:18:55 [clown]
JC: sometimes they are discreet, and sometimes they are continuous (e.g. scrioll wheel to zoom into a map).
18:19:12 [clown]
JC: might want a zoom start and zoom end event.
18:19:19 [clown]
JC: that's still in discussion.
18:19:37 [clown]
JC: and, I made edits to respect the ReSpec rules.
18:19:54 [clown]
JC: user context draft needs a lot of work still in this regard.
18:20:05 [clown]
JS: discussion?
18:20:44 [clown]
JS; James, you suggested we go thru closed actions/issues?
18:20:54 [clown]
JC: that was the update I just gave.
18:21:29 [clown]
JC: but there is also a bugzilla products for indieui event and one for indieui context
18:21:40 [clown]
s/there is also/there are also/
18:22:05 [clown]
JC: joseph's notes from the group's proposal is not in there.
18:22:20 [clown]
s/is not in there/is now in there/
18:23:04 [clown]
18:23:04 [trackbot]
ACTION-29 -- Sangwhan Moon to send list of Opera use cases and suggest requirements for mainstream events -- due 2012-12-01 -- OPEN
18:23:04 [trackbot]
18:23:15 [clown]
JC: Sangwhan says he is working on it.
18:23:45 [clown]
18:23:45 [trackbot]
ACTION-11 -- James Craig to incorporate Andy Heath's and Rich's proposal into User Context spec -- due 2012-09-26 -- OPEN
18:23:45 [trackbot]
18:23:48 [Caroline_J]
zakim, mute me
18:23:48 [Zakim]
sorry, Caroline_J, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
18:23:57 [clown]
JC: we'll talk about that with andy
18:24:02 [clown]
JS: questions?
18:24:07 [jcraig]
18:24:20 [clown]
Topic: User Needs Capture
18:24:30 [clown]
JC: can I pull it back one?
18:24:41 [clown]
JC: action for column sorting events for grids
18:24:58 [clown]
JC: unless any objections, I was going to propose something in an edit, and then send it to the list.
18:25:08 [clown]
JS: hearing no objections.
18:25:29 [clown]
JS: this is coming together nicely, thanks to James' work.
18:25:40 [clown]
JS: the meeting in Lyons was really good.
18:25:51 [clown]
JS: andy?
18:25:52 [jcraig]
18:26:30 [clown]
AH: My action is to go through the user needs out there and produce a set that we would incorporate.
18:26:38 [jcraig]
Sorry, ACTION-11 earlier was supposed to be ACTION-25
18:26:42 [jcraig]
18:26:42 [trackbot]
ACTION-25 -- James Craig to add markRequest with variant properties indicating "fromLast" (like Shift+click or select range from last mark) and "retainMarks" (like Mac Cmd+click or Win Ctrl+click meaning select in addition to) -- due 2012-11-09 -- OPEN
18:26:43 [trackbot]
18:26:55 [jcraig]
heh. Not that one either
18:27:04 [jcraig]
18:27:04 [trackbot]
ACTION-18 -- Andy Heath to summarize important or common preferences/keys list from AfA/APIP/GPII, etc. and send to the IndieUI group for discussion and potential inclusion in the User Context deliverable. -- due 2012-11-08 -- OPEN
18:27:04 [trackbot]
18:27:11 [jcraig]
There it is. ;-)
18:27:12 [clown]
AH: what is the scope of this?
18:27:22 [clown]
AH: I posted a discussion about this.
18:27:33 [janina]
18:28:54 [clown]
AH: there is a core of things that a device can do something about.
18:29:02 [clown]
AH: that relates to preferences that exist for that device.
18:29:23 [clown]
AH: several reasons to involve prefs to just pass to the webapp
18:29:38 [clown]
AH: want to get people's views on this scope problem.
18:30:03 [clown]
AH: it would be useful to write something into the draft fairly quickly.
18:30:09 [clown]
AH: in order to make that clear.
18:30:17 [jcraig]
q+ to ask for an example of what you have in mind
18:30:20 [jcraig]
ack me
18:30:20 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to ask for an example of what you have in mind
18:30:23 [clown]
AH: the scope currently is a lot narrower than I thought is would be.
18:30:32 [clown]
JC: what do you have in mind?
18:30:51 [clown]
JC: what do you mean by prefs that are passed up to the web app.
18:31:05 [clown]
AH: screen-enhanced content might be a case.
18:31:16 [clown]
JC: what do you mean by enhance?
18:31:24 [clown]
AH: colour transform for example.
18:31:40 [clown]
JC: what does that mean? not being contentious, just want and explanation.
18:32:14 [clown]
AH: audio transcripts — all sorts of things that <?>
18:32:42 [clown]
JC: something like "prefers video descriptions" could be <?>
18:32:58 [clown]
RS: the user prefs doesn't care who does the transformation.
18:33:06 [clown]
RS: we are confusing people.
18:33:19 [clown]
AH: there might be situations where…
18:33:29 [clown]
JS: stick with the colour example. that might be simpler.
18:33:42 [clown]
JS: might need a dark background with lighter fonts.
18:33:54 [clown]
JS: and there might be problems with certain colour combinations
18:34:04 [jcraig]
a dark-on-light key versus light-on-dark key is actionable. "color transform" is vague
18:34:08 [clown]
AH: sometimes you can do that on the devcie, and other times where one can't.
18:34:26 [clown]
AH: there are a whole host of these.
18:34:36 [clown]
AH: some of these can be handled by the device.
18:34:53 [clown]
AH: but others where the device can't handle it, so pass it up to the web app to deal with.
18:35:05 [clown]
AH: and other where the device can handle it, but the webapp does a better job.
18:35:28 [clown]
RS: when developing these prefs, we should take into account the capability of the device.
18:35:36 [jcraig]
q+ to say I still don't know what you mean by device can't respond a pref but the device "pass it up" and I think what you're talking about is out of scope.
18:35:37 [janina]
18:35:51 [clown]
AH: can we do something to put these ideas into the draft?
18:36:12 [clown]
JC: the plan is to constantly update the draft.
18:36:28 [clown]
JC: but I'm still confused by the core of your idea.
18:36:39 [clown]
JC: are you talking about GPII?
18:36:51 [clown]
AH: no, simply talking about passing it on to the webapp.
18:36:57 [clown]
JC: passing it from where?
18:37:11 [clown]
RS: let's take high contrast.
18:37:35 [clown]
RS: if preferred, and the platform has it, don't pass it on because it's handled by the device.
18:37:47 [clown]
RS: if we expose these things, we need to be more explicit.
18:38:03 [clown]
RS: if the device currently has the setting on...
18:38:14 [clown]
RS: it's already satisfied by the device.
18:38:15 [Zakim]
18:38:19 [Zakim]
18:38:32 [clown]
RS: you would not want to pass the preference on.
18:39:00 [Zakim]
18:39:07 [clown]
RS: when we define these prefs, we should provide guidance to the browser developers about passing it on.
18:39:20 [jcraig]
Zakim, is having trouble with caller P0
18:39:20 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'is having trouble with caller P0', jcraig
18:39:48 [clown]
RS: let's go thru the preferences, and vet them with the group.
18:40:07 [clown]
AH: can we get something into the editor's draft now, and share it with others?
18:40:19 [clown]
JC: can you propose some text?
18:40:48 [jcraig]
Zakim, drop janina
18:40:48 [Zakim]
Janina is being disconnected
18:40:49 [Zakim]
18:41:15 [jcraig]
Zakim, drop ??P0
18:41:15 [Zakim]
??P0 is being disconnected
18:41:16 [Zakim]
18:42:05 [clown]
JC: the keys we need to state whether a natvie feature is on, and a key to say that the native setting is not necessarly preferred.
18:42:43 [clown]
AH: okay, it will a different preference.
18:42:50 [clown]
JC: just a suggestion.
18:42:50 [janina]
I'm wondering whether third party service should be out of scope for us.
18:43:04 [jcraig]
ack me
18:43:04 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to say I still don't know what you mean by device can't respond a pref but the device "pass it up" and I think what you're talking about is out of scope.
18:43:07 [Zakim]
18:43:51 [jcraig]
Zakim, ??P0 is Janina
18:43:51 [Zakim]
+Janina; got it
18:45:01 [clown]
JS: we can decide if andy's proposals are in scope or not.
18:45:12 [clown]
JS: Greg V has a "tried harder" notion.
18:45:30 [clown]
JS: where you can access a third party way off in the cloud to help you out.
18:45:30 [jcraig]
I think we're in agreement now. Andy agreed to send some suggested text to the list.
18:45:37 [clown]
JS: I think this is out of scope for us.
18:45:47 [clown]
JS: or, do we want a third party server to do this?
18:46:05 [clown]
JC: don't think andy was asking for that.
18:46:08 [clown]
AH: there might be.
18:46:21 [clown]
JS: I think we should not consider those ones.
18:46:49 [clown]
AH: there are prefs that the device cannot respond to, but you still want those preferences stated.
18:47:28 [clown]
JS: are we thinking that other servers that could provide the transform, that this process is in scope.
18:47:49 [clown]
JC: are you talking about http services as opposed to client javascript.
18:48:16 [andy]
good phrasing of it james
18:48:42 [clown]
JC: Janina was asking for something like QuickTime ref movie requests, which might respond with a low rez version or one with captions.
18:48:47 [clown]
JC: I think that is out of scope.
18:49:01 [clown]
JC: I think andy's ideas are in scope.
18:49:08 [andy]
I will do
18:49:16 [andy]
seems I'm not heard so I'll type it
18:49:17 [clown]
JC: I think we need to exapnd the list of keys.
18:49:32 [andy]
fair enough - except in the longer run the differences
18:49:33 [clown]
18:50:04 [clown]
AH: in the longer run, the differences are a difference in degree of complexity.
18:50:24 [clown]
JS: we are looking for a baseline that will be adopted by the industry.
18:50:30 [clown]
AH: I will write some text.
18:50:53 [clown]
JS: and, to keep ourselves from being ambitious for 1.0
18:51:02 [clown]
JS: we need 1.0 to be a roaring success.
18:51:12 [clown]
JS: that's the end of the agenda. Anything else?
18:51:32 [clown]
JS: a scribe for next meeting, please. Nov 28th.
18:51:53 [jcraig]
The list of defined prefs is short at the moment (fontsize, captions, screenreader, etc) but we can and certainly should add more for 1.0, as long as they are generally useful.
18:52:16 [clown]
JS: no volunteer. We will find a scribe at the next meeting.
18:52:37 [Zakim]
18:52:40 [Zakim]
18:52:41 [Zakim]
18:52:44 [Zakim]
18:52:54 [jcraig]
jcraig has left #indie-ui
18:53:00 [Zakim]
18:53:15 [clown]
RRSAgent: , draft minutes
18:53:15 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand ', draft minutes', clown. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:53:27 [clown]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:53:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate clown
18:54:15 [clown]
zakim, please part
18:54:15 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Janina, Joseph_Scheuhammer, jcraig, Rich, andy, Caroline
18:54:15 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #indie-ui
18:54:20 [clown]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:54:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate clown
19:01:38 [clown]
RRSAgent, please part
19:01:38 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items