IRC log of css on 2012-11-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:23:15 [RRSAgent]
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16:23:15 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:23:20 [glazou]
Zakim, thiw ill be Style
16:23:20 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'thiw ill be Style', glazou
16:23:27 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
16:23:27 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 37 minutes
16:23:32 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:54:34 [dbaron]
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16:54:36 [SimonSapin]
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16:56:16 [TabAtkins]
I'm in another meeting, but I'll be here in IRC.
16:56:28 [glazou]
TabAtkins: noted
16:56:36 [glazou]
seems it's going to be low attendance anyway
16:56:40 [glazou]
many people sick
16:56:54 [glazou]
Zakim, code?
16:56:54 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, glazou
16:57:05 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:57:13 [Zakim]
16:57:16 [jdaggett]
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16:57:18 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P24 is me
16:57:19 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:57:32 [oyvind]
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16:57:35 [florian]
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16:57:40 [Zakim]
16:58:01 [glazou]
plinss: cannot hear you
16:58:08 [sylvaing_away]
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16:58:18 [Zakim]
16:58:22 [Zakim]
16:58:27 [emalasky]
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16:58:29 [jdaggett]
zakim, ??p28 is me
16:58:31 [Zakim]
+jdaggett; got it
16:58:41 [florian]
Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
16:58:41 [Zakim]
ok, florian, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
16:58:54 [Zakim]
+ +
16:59:00 [arronei]
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16:59:07 [SimonSapin]
Zakim: I am aaaa
16:59:19 [glazou]
Zakim, aaaa is SimonSapin
16:59:19 [Zakim]
+SimonSapin; got it
16:59:19 [SimonSapin]
Zakim, I am aaaa
16:59:20 [Zakim]
sorry, SimonSapin, I do not see a party named 'aaaa'
16:59:31 [glazou]
16:59:53 [Zakim]
17:00:13 [Zakim]
+ +1.778.785.aabb
17:00:30 [krit]
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17:00:33 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P39 is leaverou
17:00:33 [Zakim]
+leaverou; got it
17:00:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aacc
17:00:43 [Zakim]
17:00:50 [sylvaing_away]
Zakim, [Microsoft] has me
17:00:50 [Zakim]
+sylvaing_away; got it
17:00:54 [krit]
zakim, aacc is me
17:00:54 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
17:01:00 [dbaron]
Zakim, Mozilla-YVR has dbaron
17:01:00 [Zakim]
+dbaron; got it
17:01:07 [Zakim]
17:01:15 [dbaron]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:01:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see glazou, plinss, jdaggett, [IPcaller], SimonSapin, leaverou, Mozilla-YVR, [Microsoft], krit, [Microsoft.a]
17:01:17 [Zakim]
Mozilla-YVR has dbaron
17:01:17 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has sylvaing_away
17:01:39 [Zakim]
+ +1.619.846.aadd
17:02:23 [glazou]
Zakim, aadd is hober
17:02:23 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
17:03:31 [Zakim]
17:03:41 [rbetts]
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17:03:48 [Zakim]
+ +1.604.312.aaee
17:04:07 [rbetts]
Zakim, aaee is me.
17:04:07 [Zakim]
+rbetts; got it
17:04:16 [Zakim]
17:04:48 [Zakim]
17:05:02 [SteveZ]
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17:05:53 [Zakim]
17:05:59 [glazou]
Zakim, who is on the phone ?
17:05:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see glazou, plinss, jdaggett, [IPcaller], SimonSapin, leaverou, Mozilla-YVR, [Microsoft], krit, [Microsoft.a], hober, SteveZ, rbetts, ??P65
17:06:03 [Zakim]
Mozilla-YVR has dbaron
17:06:03 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has sylvaing_away
17:06:15 [Zakim]
17:06:15 [Zakim]
17:06:22 [dbaron]
has the call been very quiet the last 2 minutes, or have I stopped hearing any sound?
17:06:31 [glazou]
I'm talking dbaron
17:06:40 [Bert]
Scribe: Bert
17:06:54 [Bert]
Topic: Agenda
17:07:12 [Zakim]
17:07:32 [Zakim]
17:07:38 [dbaron]
Zakim, [Mozilla-YVR.a] has dbaron
17:07:38 [Zakim]
sorry, dbaron, I do not recognize a party named '[Mozilla-YVR.a]'
17:07:41 [Bert]
Dirk: new props in compositing affect Backgrounds and borders
17:07:43 [Zakim]
17:07:45 [dbaron]
Zakim, Mozilla-YVR.a has dbaron
17:07:45 [Zakim]
+dbaron; got it
17:07:51 [fantasai]
Zakim, IPcaller.a is me
17:07:51 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
17:07:52 [Bert]
... Can we move them, or should they stay in Compositing?
17:07:53 [Zakim]
17:07:56 [Zakim]
17:07:57 [Rossen]
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17:08:17 [Bert]
Simon: Me as editor for page?
17:08:49 [dbaron]
dbaron: another thread about viewport units and @page rules
17:09:04 [Bert]
Topic: ftf
17:09:15 [Bert]
glazou: I tried to ping molly.
17:09:22 [Bert]
... No response, so I'm concerned.
17:09:35 [Bert]
... Should we have a backup venue?
17:09:43 [Zakim]
17:09:49 [Bert]
... She posted something on wikie, but it was siubject to sponsoring.
17:09:49 [Zakim]
17:09:57 [Bert]
... So no firm date and location.
17:10:00 [leaverou]
17:10:08 [Rossen]
Zakim, [Microsoft.aa] is me
17:10:08 [Zakim]
+Rossen; got it
17:10:22 [Zakim]
17:10:26 [Bert]
johnd: In bay area, than multiple companies can sponsor.
17:10:57 [Zakim]
17:10:58 [Bert]
florian: We considered japan ftf in winter earlier, but concern about AC in japan.
17:11:04 [SimonSapin]
+1 for keeping japan in june
17:11:09 [Bert]
sylvaing: May be difficult for some
17:11:28 [Bert]
johnd: Jan/feb would be trickier for me [to sponsor in japan]
17:11:38 [Bert]
... prefer spring, but maybe cane work on soemthing.
17:11:51 [Zakim]
17:11:54 [Bert]
glazou: So let's look for spare location Bay Area in Feb.
17:12:03 [Zakim]
17:12:07 [fantasai]
Zakim, IPcaller.a is me
17:12:07 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
17:12:15 [Bert]
Topic: lea as co-editor for backgrounds & borders
17:12:40 [Zakim]
17:12:42 [Bert]
fantasai: lea had some interest, filed issues.
17:12:52 [Bert]
... I thought why not have her co-edit with me.
17:13:01 [Zakim]
17:13:06 [Bert]
... Good way to get a bit momentum, even if slow.
17:13:13 [Bert]
... It remains a low-prio module.
17:13:20 [Bert]
... And I can help Lea along.
17:13:40 [Bert]
glazou: You mentioned ytou need ack from Doug?
17:13:47 [Bert]
lea: Doug agrees.
17:14:00 [Bert]
RESOLVED: Lea co-editor for Backgrounds 4
17:14:16 [darktears]
Zakim: +??P82 is me
17:14:20 [Bert]
Topic; Simon co-editor for Paged Meda
17:14:42 [darktears]
Zakim, +??P82 is me
17:14:44 [Zakim]
sorry, darktears, I do not recognize a party named '+??P82'
17:14:45 [Bert]
Simon: progress is slow. I'm discussion with [...]
17:14:51 [Bert]
glazou: Objections?
17:14:52 [Zakim]
17:15:03 [SimonSapin1]
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17:15:06 [Bert]
florian: What was prio for this module? No objection in principle.
17:15:31 [Bert]
fantasai: High prio for some, but not for browsers.
17:15:32 [darktears]
Zakim, ??P82 is me
17:15:32 [Zakim]
+darktears; got it
17:15:40 [Bert]
... Important to make progress.
17:16:09 [Bert]
SteveZ: Counter-example: anything with layout seems important.
17:16:17 [Bert]
... It's part of the center of CSS.
17:16:25 [Bert]
fantasai: But doens't interact with other modules.
17:16:32 [fantasai]
s/modules/layout models/
17:16:34 [Bert]
SteveZ: But it should. Why not?
17:16:58 [Bert]
florian: In any case we need to make progress on it.
17:17:12 [Bert]
glazou: Is css3-page discussed at IDPF?
17:17:24 [Bert]
fantasai: Not much, they're using something else.
17:17:37 [Bert]
glazou: I guess it's important becaus eof e-books.
17:17:56 [Bert]
glazou: Objections to Simon as co-editor?
17:18:01 [Bert]
Bert: On the contrary!
17:18:16 [Bert]
dbaron: Browsers maybe not workng on it, but may do so in the future.
17:18:29 [Bert]
... May start to interact later, is a danger.
17:18:40 [Bert]
.. We've had that problem in the past.
17:18:54 [Bert]
glazou: What does that mean? It should slow down?
17:19:19 [Bert]
dbaron: Not necessarily. Don't assume it won't need any changes in the future once browsers start needing it.
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17:19:31 [Bert]
glazou: That doesn't seem acceptable.
17:19:57 [Bert]
dbaron: There is a difference between listen and comment and implements; and then actually find problems.
17:20:08 [Bert]
... We've had this in the past.
17:20:35 [Bert]
florian: You say that going to pR with only implementations other than browsers is prpoblematic?
17:21:14 [glenn]
Present+ glenn (IRC only)
17:21:28 [Bert]
SteveZ: So dbaron says: if implemented in a product that does't have the whole stack of techs of a browser, it may not be compatible wioth that stack.
17:21:38 [Bert]
dbaron: And we have a set of priorities.
17:21:47 [Bert]
.. We can't comment on everything.
17:21:56 [Bert]
... There is too much too comment on.
17:22:14 [Bert]
glazou: We discussed at ftf. We have 60 docs, too much.
17:22:30 [Bert]
... Chairs are not dictators.
17:22:44 [Bert]
... We cannot say trash everything beyond the first 15.
17:23:07 [Bert]
sylvaing: I don't disagree that it is difficult. But we should have that discussion before the poll.
17:23:27 [Bert]
SteveZ: One way out is to suggest that we set comment deadlines on things.
17:23:37 [Bert]
... Low prio items have deadline further in future.
17:23:44 [glazou]
jdaggett: :)
17:23:48 [Bert]
... People like to continue working on things.
17:24:03 [Bert]
... dbaron says there are too many things to comment on. Agree.
17:24:23 [Bert]
... But you have to keep working. No comments doesn't mean there aren't any.
17:24:47 [jdaggett]
i think the conclusion here is that css3-page needs group discussion
17:24:50 [Bert]
glazou: We never move docuemtns to next state without aking the members first.
17:25:00 [jdaggett]
i'm not sure more discussion is needed on this right now
17:25:18 [Bert]
... We have all the sensors to avoid implementations by non-browsrs only and to avoid browser pbs in the futre.
17:25:50 [Bert]
florian: Even if we don't work on a modules, people may come up with something and that may be worse. Lesser evil to work on it.
17:25:52 [jdaggett]
wrap... up... discussion...
17:26:14 [Bert]
glazou: Important discussion, but let's do that later, maybe an hour.
17:26:14 [mollyholzschlag]
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17:26:24 [Bert]
.. so back to Simon as co-editor.
17:26:36 [Bert]
RESOLVED: Simon is co-editor for css3-page.
17:27:04 [Bert]
Topic: font issues
17:27:16 [Bert]
johnd: I made a few changes.
17:27:21 [glazou]
17:27:28 [Bert]
... First is 'font-stretch'
17:27:40 [Bert]
... I put the keyowrds in the font shorthand.
17:28:07 [glazou]
Zakim, code?
17:28:07 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, glazou
17:28:10 [Bert]
... Parsing font family names makes this tricky.
17:28:20 [Bert]
.. Font size thus always has to be there.
17:28:47 [Bert]
... Other keywords don't conflict.
17:28:59 [dbaron]
looks good to me
17:29:09 [Bert]
... Is that Reasonable?
17:29:16 [Bert]
simon: I see no ambiguities.
17:29:22 [Bert]
glazou: Me neither.
17:29:38 [glazou]
17:29:39 [jdaggett]
17:29:39 [Bert]
RESOLVED: Add stretch keywords to font shorthand
17:30:21 [Bert]
johnd: In prev WD I made it so that a font-family name existing on a system gathers all faces in the family.
17:30:31 [Bert]
... then you choose a specific face.
17:30:45 [Bert]
... All these params choose a specifi face.
17:31:00 [Bert]
... Prev WD said look for each character.
17:31:11 [Bert]
... There are some subtle pbs with some faces.
17:31:19 [Zakim]
17:31:20 [Bert]
... Some lack support for a char.
17:31:33 [Bert]
... So I changed to match the face first and then check for the char.
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17:31:57 [Bert]
... When you download, you don't know what's in the faces until you download them all.
17:32:04 [Bert]
... So this avoids downloading them all.
17:32:26 [Bert]
... Some font faces have e.g., arabic in normal, but not in italic face.
17:32:32 [Bert]
... Not common, but does occur.
17:32:42 [Bert]
... In that case you should fallback to regular face.
17:32:54 [Bert]
... I'd rather introduce exception like that than to have general rules.
17:33:13 [Bert]
Bert: What exceptions?
17:33:22 [Zakim]
17:33:24 [Zakim]
17:33:31 [Bert]
johnd: E.g., older Arial has arabic only in regular and not in italic.
17:33:48 [Bert]
... Browsers would automatically use the regular and synthesize the italic.
17:34:05 [Bert]
... They're exceptional cases and I'd like the spec to leave wiggle room for that.
17:34:34 [glenn]
i guess jdagget means "synthesize oblique (and pretend its italic)"
17:34:36 [Bert]
fantasai: Seems fine, but if UA is capable, what is the *better* behavior?
17:34:42 [Bert]
... Allow both behaviors?
17:34:59 [Bert]
fantasai: You said practicval considerations.
17:35:04 [glenn]
s/jdagget means/jdaggett means/
17:35:17 [Bert]
... Can UAs deal with them in different ways, take the cost?
17:35:35 [Bert]
johnd: There are all these itneractions. E.g., witjh downlodable fonts.
17:35:50 [Bert]
... Doing style matching for soem cases and not for others.
17:36:00 [shepazu]
17:36:09 [Bert]
... You may end up with wildly diofferent style, if that is the font that has the glyph.
17:36:18 [Bert]
... Particularly on Windows.
17:36:32 [Bert]
... Windows has ways to fold different fonts into a family.
17:36:39 [Bert]
... Would rather stay away fom it.
17:37:10 [Bert]
... Previous WD was just something I introduced.
17:37:25 [Bert]
... I dont' think it is better. Solves some cases.
17:37:28 [glazou]
sylvaing_away: only surface splittable cover keyboard ?
17:37:39 [Bert]
... Rather leave UAs some wiggle room than have a general rule.
17:37:47 [Bert]
sylvaing: What's the impact on [?]
17:37:57 [sylvaing_away]
s/[?]/existing content
17:37:58 [Bert]
johnd: None.
17:37:58 [glazou]
s/[?]/existing wefonts
17:38:27 [Bert]
... When I thought through what the previous rule meant for downlodable fonts I thought: no.
17:39:47 [Bert]
RESOLVED: Wrt issue above: use the Editor's draft version.
17:39:55 [jdaggett]
17:40:01 [Bert]
Johnd: Next is syntax issue.
17:40:03 [glazou]
17:40:11 [arno]
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17:40:20 [Bert]
... @font-feature-values rule
17:40:36 [Bert]
... For features only in a certain font.
17:41:11 [Bert]
... What you need is min-variable syntax, associate name with a selector value, only for a given font family.
17:41:20 [Bert]
17:41:22 [jdaggett]
17:41:36 [Bert]
glazou: I agree with dbaron to prefer to @ sign.
17:41:47 [Bert]
johnd: Some concerns with that.
17:42:27 [dbaron]
glazou said that he prefers Variation B, but with the @ sign
17:42:28 [Bert]
... With @-signs (variation A in the message) doesn't look like property name.
17:42:37 [Bert]
.. I prefer that.
17:42:45 [SimonSapin]
we have property-like descriptors in @font-face and @counter-style
17:42:49 [glenn]
doesn't like @ syntax
17:42:53 [Bert]
... Because it *doesn't* look like something that already exists.
17:43:00 [oyvind]
@keyframes already has "from" and "to"
17:43:23 [oyvind]
17:43:26 [Bert]
fantasai: Other thing is that the values cascade.
17:43:36 [glenn]
doesn't think it necessary to make it look different
17:43:37 [Bert]
... That is not clear in the A syntax.
17:43:48 [Bert]
... In the B syntax tht is clear.
17:44:10 [Bert]
johnd: It is not a cascade, just some override.
17:44:42 [Bert]
fantasai: In first syntax, in some cases an @rule sobliterates an earlioer rule.
17:44:54 [Bert]
... In 2nd syntax it behaves very much like selectors.
17:45:03 [Bert]
... No specificity, but otherwise the same.
17:45:23 [Bert]
glazou: We have font descriptors, they are not properties either.
17:45:37 [Bert]
johnd: in @font-face, yes.
17:45:58 [Bert]
fantasai: No pref either way.
17:46:07 [glenn]
every new sub-syntax requires additional cognitive load for users, negatives of which outweigh reuse of existing syntax
17:46:16 [Bert]
dbaron: No strong pref for A or B, but if B, then with @-sign.
17:46:30 [Bert]
johnd: So we go with B with @-sign?
17:46:34 [stearns]
no strong preference
17:46:42 [glenn]
strong pref against @ syntax
17:46:45 [Bert]
... I'd like A, but don't care that strongly.
17:46:59 [Bert]
glazou: readability, coherence with rest of CSS.
17:47:15 [Bert]
... Seems we have stronger pref for B overall.
17:47:30 [Bert]
RESOLVED: syntax B with an @-sign.
17:47:47 [Bert]
Topic: ftf (cont'd)
17:47:53 [Zakim]
17:47:56 [glenn]
can't we separate adopting 2nd syntax and using @-sign?
17:48:00 [Bert]
molly: You can follow progress on the wiki.
17:48:05 [dbaron]
17:48:40 [Bert]
... We had incredible support from city and from university of Tucson.
17:48:46 [glenn]
jdaggett: suggest you make CSSFontFaceRule in ED a 'partial' interface
17:48:49 [Bert]
... We've been offered a couple of locations.
17:49:10 [Bert]
... We have the univ and the city fighting over who hosts us!
17:49:32 [Bert]
... Constraints in Feb on dates.
17:49:32 [SimonSapin]
is 1 day later possible?
17:49:39 [Bert]
... Gem show, rodeo, etc.
17:49:43 [Zakim]
17:49:46 [SimonSapin]
because of fosdem
17:50:13 [Bert]
... Challenge is finding the best political way between univ and city.
17:50:23 [Zakim]
17:50:28 [Bert]
... Biosphere 2 is just outside Tucson.
17:50:43 [Bert]
... We have been offered it as a location, with private tour.
17:51:03 [Bert]
... Including apartments with kitchens.
17:51:12 [Bert]
... Beuatiful out there.
17:51:27 [Bert]
... We could do a hybrid: 1st day at Univ on sight.
17:51:38 [Bert]
.. Mayor wants to provide a welcome and a banquet.
17:51:56 [Bert]
... So which to choose. In town, we woul dneed multiple hotels.
17:52:07 [Bert]
... Not very difficult, everything is aroudn the university.
17:52:13 [jdaggett]
i think the question is whether a sponsor is needed or not
17:52:15 [Bert]
... Facilities are good
17:52:22 [jdaggett]
i.e. a sponsor for the venue
17:52:34 [dbaron]
This sounds like we're going to end up spending a bunch of time listening to speeches in exchange for this sponsorship.
17:52:37 [Bert]
glazou: Dates: some people asked for a day later.
17:52:44 [Zakim]
17:52:58 [Bert]
... So start on Tuesday.
17:53:11 [Bert]
molly: that would be fine.
17:53:22 [Bert]
florian: I can't, anyway.
17:53:45 [jdaggett]
what about the money... ?
17:54:04 [Bert]
Ted: as a 15-year old, [...]
17:54:15 [Bert]
Molly: Tuscon reaaly wants to be a good host for us.
17:54:33 [Bert]
... Biospehere would be a differen model, but it is the Biospehre.
17:54:46 [Bert]
... Can also do a day in town and take a shuttle the next day.
17:54:49 [dbaron]
s/as a 15-year old/speaking not for Apple but for my inner 15-year-old/
17:55:21 [Bert]
... Money: you have to pay for you own travel and hotel nights.
17:55:29 [Bert]
... But the facilities are donated.
17:55:50 [Bert]
... I also want community involved. I'm looking for banquet sponsor, e.g.
17:56:02 [Bert]
... we have funds coming in, form city, from local groups.
17:56:16 [Bert]
... There has to be a formal photo op, etc.
17:56:37 [Bert]
glazou: We can thank the city like we did in Lyon:
17:56:43 [Bert]
... We organize a Meet-up.
17:56:52 [Bert]
Molly: excelletn, I nknow where to do that.
17:57:15 [mollyholzschlag]
17:57:17 [Bert]
glazou: We present our work, my BluGriffon, Mozilla firefox, etc,
17:57:58 [Bert]
SteveZ: Biosphere: I need to be back on Friday. If we're too far out of town, catcjhing a flight on Thu may be difficult.
17:58:11 [Bert]
Molly: tehre are shuttles. May have to leave an hour earlier.
17:58:27 [dbaron]
Biosphere looks like it's a 1 hour drive from the Tucson airport and a 2 hour drive from the Phoenix airport -- Phoenix may be a good option given the connections from it
17:58:32 [Bert]
SteveZ: Early leaving is OK, as long as I can do it.
17:58:52 [Bert]
molly: We need somebody to get you there. There is ample time, no stress. Not like CDG airport...
17:58:58 [glazou]
17:59:07 [glazou]
jdaggett: ROFL
17:59:15 [Bert]
... Woulkd be helpful if people could put their needs, concerns on wiki.
17:59:24 [Bert]
... Then I can respond.
17:59:33 [glazou]
jdaggett: in fact it means toothpaste is still forbidden but weapons are allowed :-)
17:59:48 [Bert]
.... Some kind of outreach event, as glazou suggested, would indeed be fabulous.
17:59:53 [jdaggett]
17:59:59 [sylvaing_away]
in AZ the metal detector rings if you're not carrying a gun
18:00:02 [Bert]
... My brother is excited. Other people, too.
18:00:31 [Bert]
... We can also do everything on Univ campus and just go visit the Biosphere.
18:00:34 [jdaggett]
+1 for biosphere
18:00:48 [Bert]
... But being there is awesome.
18:01:00 [Bert]
glazou: So one day in town and rest in Biospehereis possible?
18:01:06 [Bert]
molly: yes.
18:01:28 [Bert]
SteveZ: Meet-up might have to be *before* the CSS mneeting then.
18:01:56 [Bert]
molly: Another optionis two days at Bio and 3rd day in town.
18:02:16 [Bert]
glazou: People from aborad probabaly have to stay overnight anyway.
18:02:40 [Bert]
molly: We just need to figure out the days we're in town.
18:02:58 [Bert]
glazou: Can you deal with this input so far and report back asap?
18:03:08 [Bert]
florian: Maybe a doodle for the dates?
18:03:16 [Bert]
glazou: I think molly need firm dates.
18:03:47 [Bert]
molly: Please, use the wiki. It's easiest for me. Put your dates there, too.
18:03:54 [Bert]
... any special needs.
18:04:19 [Bert]
glazou: So, if possible, try 5-7, if not possible keep 4-6.
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18:05:06 [glazou]
I only hope they're not going to keep us in biosphere2 for months :-D
18:05:16 [Zakim]
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Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
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Attendees were glazou, plinss, [IPcaller], jdaggett, +, SimonSapin, +1.778.785.aabb, leaverou, +1.415.832.aacc, sylvaing_away, krit, dbaron, [Microsoft],
18:05:17 [Zakim]
... +1.619.846.aadd, hober, SteveZ, +1.604.312.aaee, rbetts, Bert, Mozilla-YVR, fantasai, Stearns, Rossen, darktears, Molly_Holzschlag
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