IRC log of webid on 2012-11-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:02:48 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webid
15:02:48 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:02:55 [sandro]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:02:57 [deiu]
RRSAgent, deiu is scribe
15:02:57 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'deiu is scribe', deiu. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:03:06 [jonathandray]
present+ Jonathan_Dray
15:03:12 [kidehen]
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15:03:19 [domel]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:03:19 [Zakim]
+domel; got it
15:03:25 [bobP]
scribenick deiu
15:03:40 [deiu]
thanks bobP
15:05:09 [sandro]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:05:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sandro
15:05:15 [bblfish]
15:05:26 [deiu]
present+ Andrei Sambra
15:05:34 [kidehen]
present +kidehen
15:05:34 [deiu]
present+ deiu
15:05:38 [sandro]
present+ Sandro_Hawke
15:05:38 [Zakim]
15:05:45 [kidehen]
present+ kidehen
15:05:49 [Zakim]
15:05:57 [sandro]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:05:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sandro
15:06:14 [sandro]
Meeting: WebID Community Group
15:06:22 [sandro]
15:06:22 [kidehen]
present+ Kingsley Idehen
15:06:30 [sandro]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:06:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sandro
15:06:37 [sandro]
bblfish, are you calling back?
15:06:47 [bergi]
present+ bergi
15:06:50 [turnguard]
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15:06:50 [sandro]
chair: Henry_Story
15:07:09 [deiu]
I will scribe
15:07:28 [deiu]
What's the syntax?
15:07:36 [deiu]
scribe: deiu
15:07:38 [sandro]
scribe: Mr. Deiu
15:07:53 [sandro]
yep. I was just suggesting full names for that.
15:07:57 [domel]
present+ domel
15:08:05 [bblfish_]
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15:08:16 [turnguard]
hi everybody, i'll be following in passive mode... gotta take care of kid...
15:08:17 [bobP]
present+ bobP
15:08:17 [sandro]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:08:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sandro
15:08:23 [deiu]
scribe: Andrei Sambra
15:08:39 [Zakim]
15:08:51 [sandro]
s/scribe: Mr. Deiu//
15:09:04 [sandro]
s/scribe: deiu//
15:09:13 [bblfish_]
Topic: Overview of what happened at TPAC
15:09:38 [bblfish_]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:09:49 [Zakim]
bblfish_, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: bblfish (51%), Sandro (9%), Kingsley_Idehen (15%)
15:09:59 [sandro]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:09:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sandro
15:10:14 [deiu]
bblfish: we had a good week, all around
15:10:17 [bblfish]
15:10:44 [deiu]
... Monday was for introduction / IRC / getting people to create WebIDs
15:11:13 [deiu]
... there is a group.n3 file with the participants from TPAC
15:11:21 [bblfish]
15:11:43 [deiu]
... we had 25 people, if you are missing, please let bblfish know
15:11:48 [melvster]
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15:11:56 [deiu]
... TimBL was there for both days
15:12:02 [scor]
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15:12:20 [bblfish]
15:12:30 [deiu]
... people should use the queue when asking questions
15:12:48 [deiu]
... typing q+ will add you / q- will remove you from queue
15:13:22 [deiu]
... we had redefined WebID
15:13:26 [bobP]
15:13:43 [deiu]
... there was a picture drawn by TimBL about WebID integration
15:13:58 [deiu]
... left side has authentication systems / right has RWW
15:14:24 [deiu]
... we separated Identity from Authentication and Authorization
15:14:57 [deiu]
... had some good meetings on Wednesday
15:15:16 [scor]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:15:16 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Bob_Powers, Sandro, ??P18, ??P21, domel, deiu (muted), Kingsley_Idehen, scor, bblfish
15:15:17 [deiu]
... 50 people interested in talking about identity
15:15:53 [deiu]
... most people were in agreement
15:16:03 [deiu]
... Thu and Fri was LDP f2f
15:16:08 [bblfish]
15:16:13 [deiu]
... good to see how professional chairs handle things
15:16:22 [scor]
15:16:42 [bblfish]
ack scor
15:16:57 [Zakim]
15:16:59 [deiu]
scor: was there anyone from Google / Mozilla - browser vendors?
15:17:16 [Zakim]
15:17:20 [deiu]
bblfish: the identity meeting had a lot of people
15:18:03 [bobP]
zakim, who is making noise
15:18:03 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is making noise', bobP
15:18:09 [bobP]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:18:13 [deiu]
... no one really remembers if any browser vendors people were there
15:18:21 [Zakim]
bobP, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: scor (33%), bblfish (58%), Kingsley_Idehen (22%)
15:18:24 [MacTed]
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15:18:33 [bblfish]
15:19:03 [bblfish]
Topic: LPD Access Control
15:19:10 [deiu]
... we can now look at LDP and access control
15:19:35 [deiu]
... LDP chair agrees that AC is essential at this point
15:19:59 [deiu]
... but he is worried about sidetracking work from main LDP direction
15:20:08 [bblfish]
15:20:12 [sandro]
15:20:32 [deiu]
sandro: it's not really up to the chair
15:21:08 [deiu]
bblfish: LDP chair is a but jumpy when someone mentions authentication
15:21:17 [scor]
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15:21:24 [sandro]
sandro: The chair is reasonably trying to stop people from trying to solve the problem -- that's out of scope for the group.
15:21:25 [bblfish]
15:21:55 [deiu]
bblfish: we can have a session every two weeks to talk about WebACL
15:22:05 [bblfish]
Proposal: we have some regular meetings here on this
15:22:52 [bblfish]
any ideas on this?
15:22:54 [deiu]
deiu: I think WebACL is more important for LDP than it is for WebID
15:23:09 [bblfish]
15:23:13 [bergi]
15:23:20 [sandro]
+0 sounds reasonable to me; doubt I can help
15:23:21 [domel]
15:23:24 [jonathandray]
15:23:31 [kidehen]
15:23:33 [scor]
15:23:36 [deiu]
+0 I think it's out of scope for WebID
15:23:57 [Zakim]
15:24:03 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:24:03 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
15:24:04 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
15:24:04 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
15:24:07 [kidehen]
this is RWW-0, I hope
15:24:10 [deiu]
bblfish: this can be part of the RWW
15:24:18 [deiu]
I agree with that
15:24:24 [bblfish]
so we want to share this space with RWW people
15:24:26 [bblfish]
and topics
15:24:37 [kidehen]
that's my assumption, at this point
15:24:40 [scor]
15:25:01 [deiu]
kidehen, I agree with RWW-0
15:26:14 [bblfish]
Topic: Is this a good time for regular meetings?
15:26:34 [scor]
15:26:48 [bergi]
15:26:51 [bblfish]
15:26:58 [domel]
15:27:00 [bobP]
15:27:03 [turnguard]
15:27:05 [deiu]
Today's time: 16:00 CET / 10:00 EST
15:27:17 [deiu]
15:27:21 [jonathandray]
15:28:21 [deiu]
RESOLUTION: We have some regular meetings here on this / Friday at 16:00 CET / 10:00 EST
15:29:08 [bblfish]
Topic: The WebID definition
15:29:24 [bblfish]
15:29:37 [deiu]
bblfish: we need to look at the picture again
15:29:44 [deiu]
... we don't have a good process yet
15:30:19 [deiu]
... we should try to push for changing from a CG to a WG
15:31:00 [deiu]
... there was some disagreement on the mailing list about the definition of WebID
15:31:16 [bblfish]
15:31:19 [deiu]
... we need to reach a consensus
15:31:49 [deiu]
... TimBL argued about using turtle and # URLs
15:31:49 [bblfish]
15:31:59 [sandro]
15:32:31 [bblfish]
Proposal: A WebID is "A URL that denotes an Agent - Person, Software or Organisation."
15:32:34 [kidehen]
15:32:37 [bblfish]
15:32:38 [deiu]
... A WebID is "A URL that denotes an Agent - Person, Software or Organisation."
15:32:38 [turnguard]
15:32:39 [bergi]
15:32:45 [deiu]
15:32:55 [sandro]
-0 but I wasn't in this conversation, coming late
15:32:56 [domel]
15:32:59 [scor]
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15:33:36 [turnguard]
@kingsley : maybe you could also explain to others what is meant by "denote" and why it is used
15:33:53 [kidehen]
lets finish
15:34:08 [deiu]
sandro: I have two issues
15:34:23 [deiu]
... first is about branding WebID: similar to OpenID, etc.
15:35:02 [deiu]
... second is having URLs that denote webpages is a "can of worms" http-range-14 issues
15:35:04 [kidehen]
sandro: doesn't URI work ?
15:35:27 [kidehen]
henry: ideally, yes.
15:35:31 [deiu]
bblfish: is there a way to word it in the spec so that we differentiate URL from URI?
15:35:37 [MacTed]
sandro - that's where "WebID" has been erroneously used as shorthand for the "WebID Protocol" ... which has been distinct from "WebID" (a URL/URI/IRI denoting...)
15:35:43 [scor]
Antoine had suggested to using IRIs instead in the spec
15:36:06 [kidehen]
henry and sandro: we can negate the can of worms. We just need to agree about the least controversial i.e., de-referencable URI or URL
15:36:23 [bblfish]
15:36:41 [deiu]
RESOLVED: A WebID is "A URL that denotes an Agent - Person, Software or Organisation."
15:37:03 [deiu]
... we should add conditions
15:37:04 [bblfish]
"The WebID when dereferenced MUST return a document/representation that describes the URL referent uniquely."
15:37:43 [deiu]
... a WebID that doesn't provide info about the thing it describes is not very useful
15:38:04 [kidehen]
henry: are these conditions or attributes?
15:38:25 [deiu]
... we should be open when defining conditions
15:38:35 [kidehen]
bblfish: are these conditions or attributes, thus far you've outlined two attributes of a WebID
15:39:14 [deiu]
... there is a third condition: the user has to have control over the WebID
15:39:33 [deiu]
... otherwise it's just a URL on the Web
15:40:22 [sandro]
+0 I'm getting more comfortable with this.
15:40:36 [kidehen]
15:40:41 [kidehen]
15:40:54 [bblfish]
Proposal: second part of WebID definition: ""The WebID when dereferenced MUST return a document/representation that describes the URL referent uniquely."
15:41:00 [bblfish]
15:41:06 [bergi]
15:41:10 [deiu]
+0 it's too ambiguous: "describes the URL ref uniquely" can mean anything in terms of representation
15:41:46 [sandro]
+1 (assuming it's okay to have redirects, of course)
15:41:58 [bblfish]
so something related to inverse functiona properties, owl2. keys
15:41:59 [MacTed]
I would suggest s/the URL referent uniquely/the URL referent/
15:42:01 [turnguard]
+0 document/representation is something one can argue about
15:42:02 [deiu]
deiu: there is no mention of linked data (which is the basis for WebID)
15:42:08 [jonathandray]
+0 what about somthing like "... MUST return Turtle; servers MAY deliver other formats using standard HTTP content negotiation; If the client doesn't indicate a preference, Turtle MUST be returned"
15:42:27 [jonathandray]
15:42:55 [jonathandray]
ok then +1
15:42:56 [domel]
15:42:59 [kidehen]
15:43:00 [MacTed]
... MUST support Turtle; MAY deliver other formats; SHOULD handle content negotiation...
15:43:08 [scor]
15:43:23 [kidehen]
MacTed: how did we get to Turtle?
15:43:25 [scor]
deiu: Linked Data is not a spec, can't be used normatively
15:43:54 [deiu]
scor, but Turtle is
15:43:54 [MacTed]
kidehen - from jonathandray's comment.
15:43:56 [melvster]
jonathandray: careful of setting defaults because browser hrefs cant do this, and you may want to serve e.g. XHTML+RDFa
15:44:01 [bblfish]
Proposal: second part of WebID definition: "The WebID when dereferenced MUST return a document/representation that describes the URL referent uniquely."
15:44:04 [bblfish]
15:44:09 [kidehen]
15:44:12 [sandro]
15:44:18 [jonathandray]
15:44:19 [scor]
15:44:20 [MacTed]
I don't understand "describes the URL referent uniquely"
15:44:23 [bergi]
15:44:27 [domel]
15:44:30 [melvster]
0 -- not pro or against, happy to go with it ...
15:44:35 [MacTed]
"describes the URL referent" seems sufficient
15:44:36 [deiu]
15:44:37 [turnguard]
15:44:51 [sandro]
"primarily describes the URL referent" ?
15:44:53 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
15:44:53 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
15:45:05 [kidehen]
MacTed: we are getting to it. The description is a graph, the minimal set is as outlined in bblfish mail
15:45:07 [sandro]
"provides identifying characteristics of the referent" ?
15:45:34 [deiu]
bblfish: it should have a cert:key relation
15:45:48 [deiu]
MacTed: the description must include self-reference
15:46:19 [deiu]
bblfish: the WebID document should give an inverse function property that uniquely identifies the WebID
15:46:34 [sandro]
bblfish: The webid document should speak about the webid, in some way which uses an owl:InverseFunctionalProperty to uniquely identify the referent
15:47:12 [kidehen]
MacTed: this is about the description. This is what makes the description one that uniquely describes the subject
15:47:13 [deiu]
MacTed: can I have a WebID that is for EITHER me or my son?
15:48:09 [bobP]
15:48:18 [MacTed]
s/MacTed: can/sandro: can/
15:48:55 [deiu]
MacTed: what if I don't use the WebID for authentication, but only for identity
15:48:56 [kidehen]
You need > = 1 IFP relationship in the description document
15:49:02 [MacTed]
dereference WebID URI, get document which describes reference *including* statements pointing to that same URI as WebID...
15:49:18 [Zakim]
15:49:18 [sandro]
sandro: I'm unclear what kind of RDF triples have to be there for it to really qualify.
15:49:18 [MacTed]
15:49:27 [bblfish]
15:49:33 [kidehen]
bblfish: your email covers it, yes
15:49:44 [bobP]
15:50:20 [kidehen]
bblfish: we can make an example. melvster is a nice test case :-)
15:50:22 [deiu]
bblfish: we're moving forward with this, but it's difficult
15:50:35 [deiu]
... might want to continue the discussion on the mailing list
15:50:38 [sandro]
I'm inclined toward SHOULD on this. I don't see why this kind of fuzzy thing should be a MUST.
15:51:03 [bblfish]
Topic: Web Identity Interoperability spec
15:51:04 [MacTed]
dereference WebID IRI, get description document which includes statements saying that this WebID IRI identifies the entity described by the document(s) which you get by deferencing this WebID IRI...
15:51:14 [bobP]
The Agent could be the union of you and your son
15:51:15 [scor]
the ultimate test is whether you can use your WebID in the protocol...
15:51:29 [domel_]
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15:51:30 [bobP]
but the referent to the Agent should be unique
15:52:27 [deiu]
bblfish: reuse existing protocols (BrowserID / OpenID) for WebID authentication
15:53:03 [deiu]
... focus on interoperability, starting from ACL
15:53:50 [deiu]
... use ACL on the wiki
15:54:03 [kidehen]
+1 for Wiki notes showcasing reasoning based tricks etc..
15:54:03 [deiu]
... we already have a group.n3 file
15:54:10 [melvster]
just a thought ... "A WebID is a URI that denotes an Agent. The WebID *should* but an HTTP URI. that when derferenced, returns turtle describing that Agent."
15:54:40 [kidehen]
melvster: we don't need Turtle in the definition. We are beyond that, I hope
15:54:56 [melvster]
ok sure ...
15:55:31 [deiu]
... we need to defuse the tensions between different groups and reach consensus
15:55:39 [kidehen]
bblfish: yes
15:56:05 [kidehen]
bblfish: yes, we have run the gamut re. good, bad, and the ugly.
15:56:11 [Zakim]
15:56:28 [domel]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:56:28 [Zakim]
+domel; got it
15:56:47 [kidehen]
melvster: your route to signing emails goes through one of these IFP reasoning examples :-)
15:57:07 [deiu]
... we can get people from different communities to help write a Wiki page about ACL use cases
15:57:17 [MacTed]
thinking aloud - "A WebID is a URI that denotes an Agent. When a WebID URI is dereferenced, it MUST return a description of that Agent. The description MUST include statements which state that the WebID identifies the same Agent."
15:58:36 [bblfish]
15:59:03 [kidehen]
MacTed: we should put meat of <> into said Wiki doc
15:59:31 [kidehen]
bblfish: yes. logic is the unifier
15:59:35 [deiu]
bblfish: we can use semantic web reasoning to help us
15:59:43 [MacTed]
kidehen - yes
16:00:07 [kidehen]
16:00:09 [kidehen]
bye all
16:00:14 [scor]
montly or bi weekly meetings please
16:00:20 [scor]
bye all
16:00:24 [melvster]
+1 monthly
16:00:25 [melvster]
bye all
16:00:31 [Zakim]
16:00:31 [sandro]
bye, thanks
16:00:35 [Zakim]
16:00:47 [Zakim]
16:00:49 [deiu]
I propose we have monthly formal WebID meetings, and informal ones whenever we want
16:00:56 [melvster]
16:00:58 [melvster]
16:00:59 [melvster]
16:01:01 [bblfish]
16:01:09 [bblfish]
I think we could have monthly RWW one too
16:01:41 [jonathandray]
bblfish: +1 for both
16:01:51 [melvster]
-1 from me, id prefer to attend just 1 monthly
16:02:35 [melvster]
(speaking personally not as chair ... others are free arrange calls as wanted)
16:02:37 [deiu]
I think ACL is orthogonal to WebID
16:03:02 [deiu]
as long as we emphasize on the _ID part of WebID
16:03:29 [Zakim]
16:03:32 [deiu]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:03:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate deiu
16:04:55 [bblfish]
16:04:56 [deiu] still has an issue with RDFa
16:04:57 [jonathandray]
melvster: then 1 monthly meeting for both webid and rww ?
16:05:21 [deiu]
there's an open issue ticket on the EasyRdf github page
16:05:30 [melvster]
jonathandray: sounds good, if it gets mega popular, we can increase the frequency by demand
16:05:40 [melvster]
and informal meeting when people want
16:06:10 [bblfish]
melvster you don't need to come to the WebID monthly meetings.
16:06:30 [bblfish]
you can meet deiu
16:06:37 [deiu]
we should taskify someone to write an app for voting on proposals
16:06:57 [deiu]
users can cast their votes and add a description for their reasoning
16:09:12 [deiu]
bobP, bblfish don't forget the guys in NL want to give a WebID to 15.000 students
16:09:30 [deiu]
was it 50k?
16:10:06 [deiu]
bblfish, biweekly for wording the proposals (informal)
16:10:09 [MacTed]
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16:10:19 [deiu]
monthly formal for voting on proposals
16:13:03 [turnguard]
ok bye
16:13:08 [melvster]
16:13:15 [bblfish]
16:13:34 [deiu]
Meeting adjourned.
16:13:35 [Zakim]
16:13:37 [Zakim]
16:13:38 [Zakim]
16:13:41 [deiu]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:13:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate deiu
16:13:41 [Zakim]
16:13:58 [Zakim]
16:14:02 [turnguard]
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16:18:08 [bobP]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:18:37 [webr3]
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16:18:59 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, ??P21, in INC_WEBID(WEBID)10:00AM
16:19:00 [Zakim]
INC_WEBID(WEBID)10:00AM has ended
16:19:00 [Zakim]
Attendees were Bob_Powers, bblfish, Sandro, deiu, Kingsley_Idehen, domel, scor, MacTed
16:19:10 [jonathandray]
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17:02:52 [webr3]
RRSAgent, pointer?
17:02:52 [RRSAgent]
17:06:11 [sandro]
RRSAgent, make minutes
17:06:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sandro
17:41:32 [bblfish]
thanks sandro
17:41:37 [turnguard]
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17:41:56 [bblfish]
I wonder if I should go in there and edit it a little later
17:42:17 [bblfish]
was re-reading it. There are a lot of good comments.
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