IRC log of ua on 2012-11-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:32:38 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:32:38 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/08-ua-irc
17:32:40 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:32:40 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:32:42 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:32:42 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes
17:32:43 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:32:43 [trackbot]
Date: 08 November 2012
17:32:53 [JAllan]
rrsagent, set logs public
17:44:46 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
17:45:06 [kford]
rrsagent, agenda?
17:45:06 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'agenda'
17:45:13 [kford]
rrsagent agenda?
17:47:08 [kford]
Agenda+ discuss UAAG Comment
17:47:09 [kford]
Agenda+ Finish off 2.8 Action-747
17:47:11 [kford]
Agenda+ Levels Discussion
17:47:12 [kford]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiiGLIaAlHSKdHNrcGNacUp2MHdXQW9sUmpBQ21Lenc#gid=0
17:47:14 [kford]
start on 2.3.2
17:47:16 [kford]
Agenda+ Review Mobile example writing - send comments to the list.
17:47:17 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0012.html
17:47:35 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:47:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/08-ua-minutes.html kford
17:55:56 [JAllan]
regrets: simon
17:59:25 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:59:33 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
18:00:04 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
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+Jeanne
18:00:25 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
18:00:45 [Zakim]
+Greg_Lowney
18:01:44 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
18:02:06 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
18:02:09 [kford]
RRSAgent: zakim, microsoft is kford
18:02:09 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'zakim, microsoft is kford', kford. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:02:20 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
18:02:20 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
18:02:25 [Jan]
zakim, code?
18:02:25 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
18:02:55 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
18:03:22 [Jan]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
18:03:22 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:04:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.609.734.aaaa
18:05:01 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
18:05:12 [JAllan]
zalim, aaaa is really Markku
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+Kim_Patch
18:07:25 [JAllan]
zakim, aaaa is really Markku
18:07:25 [Zakim]
+Markku; got it
18:08:06 [JAllan]
scribe: jallan
18:08:12 [JAllan]
open item 1
18:08:20 [JAllan]
open item 2
18:09:08 [mhakkinen]
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18:09:24 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0022.html
18:11:11 [JAllan]
gl: does add/remove cover show/hide
18:11:32 [JAllan]
... does add allow user to create new toolbar
18:12:24 [JAllan]
gl: does remove only mean uninstall
18:12:59 [JAllan]
jr: agree, add should mean to reveal or show, not create new bars
18:13:39 [Greg]
Does "add" imply that all UA that have any toolbars need to let the user create new ones? Does "remove" imply uninstall rather than hide?
18:13:42 [JAllan]
... concerned about wording. toolbars and items in them are two different things
18:15:24 [JAllan]
mh: are there examples of existing apps that let you reorder items in a ribbon.
18:15:51 [JAllan]
kp yes in office 2010 you can create new ribbons and reorder items within
18:17:17 [JAllan]
...can just drag item to new location. it has everything that the application can do not just existing menu items.
18:18:04 [Greg]
Customize the Quick Access Toolbar, http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/help/customize-the-quick-access-toolbar-HA001234105.aspx
18:19:07 [JAllan]
kp: automatic keyboard shortcuts for everything.
18:19:53 [JAllan]
jr: we are saying if everybody had something like this we would be happy. we can reorder items, show, hide, and reposition.
18:24:06 [Greg]
Even Office allowing you to replace the ribbon would fail 2.8.1 as written, as you cannot customize the items within the default ribbon.
18:24:56 [JAllan]
kp: can we reorder the colors on a color palette the opens in a menu.
18:28:10 [JAllan]
jr: what are we really looking for with the toolbars.
18:28:22 [JAllan]
... a user customized set of commands
18:28:52 [JAllan]
gl: remove the items you don't want, because of distraction or screen space
18:29:34 [JAllan]
jr: not the toolbar is not the only problem, could be expanded to the entire chrome.
18:31:09 [JAllan]
... the principle here, the user should be able to minimize the size of the chrome, and provide a user customizable palette of commands the the user requires.
18:31:55 [JAllan]
gl: all the user to configure menus, or hide or show everything. or pick individual UI components.
18:32:33 [JAllan]
... toolbars are already done. customizing everything is rarely done.
18:32:57 [JAllan]
jr: everything should be minimizable.
18:33:47 [JAllan]
js: propose we write or confirm an AA, then use IER to expand example and explanation rather than write a AAA
18:36:36 [Greg]
Ideally, UA would allow user to customize all UA UI, and maximize document space. But ability to customize toolbars is low hanging fruit because it is already implemented in some browsers.
18:36:36 [JAllan]
mh: the only browser that has anything close to this if FF and Office.
18:37:59 [Jan]
JR: suggestions is two SCs...(1) Ability to minimize the chrome in order to maximize the rendered content area....(2) the ability to dhow/hide a one-touch user customizable control palette (e.g. toolbar)
18:38:02 [JAllan]
mh: chome is much more limited.
18:39:09 [Greg]
Chrome is thus quite deficient for users who rely on pointing devices, as they cannot make commands easily available.
18:40:46 [JAllan]
jr: we took this out of ATAG for similar issues. the trouble with toolbars is they are defined differently, and will they read the def
18:40:56 [JAllan]
Glossary entry for _Toolbars and similar containers_:
18:40:58 [JAllan]
A collection of commonly used controls presented in a region that can be
18:41:00 [JAllan]
configured or navigated separately from other regions. Such containers
18:41:01 [JAllan]
may be docked or free-floating, permanent or transient, integral to the
18:41:03 [JAllan]
application or add-ons. Variations are often called toolbars, palettes,
18:41:05 [JAllan]
panels, or inspectors.
18:42:12 [JAllan]
gl: is the definition too broad. is a message box a toolbar?
18:43:12 [JAllan]
jr: in 2.8.1 ANY is a problem. do we really want add, remove, etc of ANY UI component
18:43:59 [JAllan]
kp: problem with getting things back.
18:44:01 [Greg]
What are examples of things that are like toolbars which we would not want or expect to be customizable? As Jan said, status bars, perhaps.
18:44:31 [JAllan]
js: hearing that ANY is not a good thing.
18:44:51 [JAllan]
jr: should we say 'at least one' rather than ANY
18:44:55 [Greg]
Another approach would be to say that user can choose which commands are available via a single click or gesture.
18:45:08 [JAllan]
kelly and Kim and Jim +1 to jr above
18:45:14 [Greg]
...or are always visible.
18:45:59 [JAllan]
jr: YES
18:46:50 [JAllan]
... this is the principle I was shooting for
18:48:29 [Greg]
"The user can choose which commands are available via a single click or gesture, and which status displays are always visible."
18:48:55 [JAllan]
mark and jan will play with the wording on 2.8
18:49:35 [JAllan]
jr: seems to me to be 2 SCs, split them at the comma
18:51:10 [JAllan_]
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18:52:01 [JAllan]
mh: there is a way in chrome to add shortcut keys to installed extensions.
18:52:56 [JAllan]
js: from mobi a11y standards, is the ability to change the position of a toolbar. for folks who are one handed to move toolbars on one side of device
18:53:04 [JAllan]
jr: will take that into account.
18:53:25 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:53:25 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:53:26 [JAllan]
close item 2
18:53:27 [Zakim]
1. discuss UAAG Comment [from kford]
18:53:27 [Zakim]
2. Finish off 2.8 Action-747 [from kford]
18:53:27 [Zakim]
3. Levels Discussion [from kford]
18:53:27 [Zakim]
4. Review Mobile example writing - send comments to the list. [from kford]
18:53:50 [JAllan]
take up item 1
18:53:51 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
18:53:52 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "discuss UAAG Comment" taken up [from kford]
18:57:46 [Greg]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0025.html is Jim's mai of 2012-10-30 with comments from Thomas Sisson.
18:58:03 [jeanne]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2012Oct/0000.html
19:00:32 [JAllan]
gl: sometimes trying to make content accessible may render the content unusable.
19:01:02 [JAllan]
... agree that the 'big hammer' of turning off style sheets is a last resort.
19:01:53 [JAllan]
ja: there are OS controls and UA controls separate from rewriting CSS
19:04:57 [JAllan]
ja: second paragraphs is poor design, and something that the user has to live with. We already have SC dealing with overriding scrollbar appearance.
19:07:10 [JAllan]
gl UAAG has lots of SCs to allow the user to override many author errors.
19:10:02 [JAllan]
mh: have seen examples of canvas where author is creating dialog boxes. font resizing or color if bitmapped text drawn by javascript. the UA does not know what the JS is doing.
19:11:15 [JAllan]
gl: it would be nice if some search engine would allow you search by html element.
19:11:30 [Jan]
http://builtwith.com/
19:11:51 [Jan]
http://trends.builtwith.com/docinfo/WAI-ARIA
19:11:55 [JAllan]
jr: builtwith.com indexing of constructs used to build webpages.
19:12:39 [Jan]
http://trends.builtwith.com/docinfo/HTML-5-Specific-Tags
19:15:24 [JAllan]
Jim will write a response to the comment
19:16:01 [Jan]
http://trends.builtwith.com/topsites/WAI-ARIA
19:21:04 [JAllan]
can talk to them and ask them to add various elements
19:24:27 [Zakim]
-Jan
19:24:28 [Zakim]
-Markku
19:24:34 [Zakim]
-Greg_Lowney
19:24:40 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
19:24:40 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeanne, Jim_Allan, kford, Kim_Patch
19:24:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JAllan, mhakkinen, KimPatch, Jan, Greg, jeanne, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot
19:24:57 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:24:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/08-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:25:29 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
19:25:35 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
19:25:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeanne, Jim_Allan, kford
19:25:36 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JAllan, mhakkinen, KimPatch, Jan, Greg, jeanne, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot
19:33:32 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
19:33:35 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
19:38:35 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, kford, in WAI_UAWG()1:00PM
19:38:36 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
19:38:36 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Greg_Lowney, kford, Jan, +1.609.734.aaaa, Kim_Patch, Markku
19:39:03 [JAllan]
zakim, please part
19:39:03 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:39:11 [JAllan]
rrsagent make minutes
19:39:18 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:39:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/08-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:39:46 [JAllan]
chair: jimAllan, KellyFord
19:39:51 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:39:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/08-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:40:26 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
19:40:26 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items