17:32:38 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:32:38 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/08-ua-irc 17:32:40 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:32:40 Zakim has joined #ua 17:32:42 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 17:32:42 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes 17:32:43 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 17:32:43 Date: 08 November 2012 17:32:53 rrsagent, set logs public 17:44:46 kford has joined #ua 17:45:06 rrsagent, agenda? 17:45:06 I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'agenda' 17:45:13 rrsagent agenda? 17:47:08 Agenda+ discuss UAAG Comment 17:47:09 Agenda+ Finish off 2.8 Action-747 17:47:11 Agenda+ Levels Discussion 17:47:12 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiiGLIaAlHSKdHNrcGNacUp2MHdXQW9sUmpBQ21Lenc#gid=0 17:47:14 start on 2.3.2 17:47:16 Agenda+ Review Mobile example writing - send comments to the list. 17:47:17 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0012.html 17:47:35 rrsagent, make minutes 17:47:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/08-ua-minutes.html kford 17:55:56 regrets: simon 17:59:25 jeanne has joined #ua 17:59:33 Greg has joined #ua 18:00:04 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 18:00:11 +Jeanne 18:00:25 +Jim_Allan 18:00:45 +Greg_Lowney 18:01:44 +[Microsoft] 18:02:06 Jan has joined #ua 18:02:09 RRSAgent: zakim, microsoft is kford 18:02:09 I'm logging. I don't understand 'zakim, microsoft is kford', kford. Try /msg RRSAgent help 18:02:20 zakim, microsoft is kford 18:02:20 +kford; got it 18:02:25 zakim, code? 18:02:25 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan 18:02:55 +[IPcaller] 18:03:22 zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan 18:03:22 +Jan; got it 18:04:20 + +1.609.734.aaaa 18:05:01 KimPatch has joined #ua 18:05:12 zalim, aaaa is really Markku 18:07:18 +Kim_Patch 18:07:25 zakim, aaaa is really Markku 18:07:25 +Markku; got it 18:08:06 scribe: jallan 18:08:12 open item 1 18:08:20 open item 2 18:09:08 mhakkinen has joined #ua 18:09:24 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0022.html 18:11:11 gl: does add/remove cover show/hide 18:11:32 ... does add allow user to create new toolbar 18:12:24 gl: does remove only mean uninstall 18:12:59 jr: agree, add should mean to reveal or show, not create new bars 18:13:39 Does "add" imply that all UA that have any toolbars need to let the user create new ones? Does "remove" imply uninstall rather than hide? 18:13:42 ... concerned about wording. toolbars and items in them are two different things 18:15:24 mh: are there examples of existing apps that let you reorder items in a ribbon. 18:15:51 kp yes in office 2010 you can create new ribbons and reorder items within 18:17:17 ...can just drag item to new location. it has everything that the application can do not just existing menu items. 18:18:04 Customize the Quick Access Toolbar, http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/help/customize-the-quick-access-toolbar-HA001234105.aspx 18:19:07 kp: automatic keyboard shortcuts for everything. 18:19:53 jr: we are saying if everybody had something like this we would be happy. we can reorder items, show, hide, and reposition. 18:24:06 Even Office allowing you to replace the ribbon would fail 2.8.1 as written, as you cannot customize the items within the default ribbon. 18:24:56 kp: can we reorder the colors on a color palette the opens in a menu. 18:28:10 jr: what are we really looking for with the toolbars. 18:28:22 ... a user customized set of commands 18:28:52 gl: remove the items you don't want, because of distraction or screen space 18:29:34 jr: not the toolbar is not the only problem, could be expanded to the entire chrome. 18:31:09 ... the principle here, the user should be able to minimize the size of the chrome, and provide a user customizable palette of commands the the user requires. 18:31:55 gl: all the user to configure menus, or hide or show everything. or pick individual UI components. 18:32:33 ... toolbars are already done. customizing everything is rarely done. 18:32:57 jr: everything should be minimizable. 18:33:47 js: propose we write or confirm an AA, then use IER to expand example and explanation rather than write a AAA 18:36:36 Ideally, UA would allow user to customize all UA UI, and maximize document space. But ability to customize toolbars is low hanging fruit because it is already implemented in some browsers. 18:36:36 mh: the only browser that has anything close to this if FF and Office. 18:37:59 JR: suggestions is two SCs...(1) Ability to minimize the chrome in order to maximize the rendered content area....(2) the ability to dhow/hide a one-touch user customizable control palette (e.g. toolbar) 18:38:02 mh: chome is much more limited. 18:39:09 Chrome is thus quite deficient for users who rely on pointing devices, as they cannot make commands easily available. 18:40:46 jr: we took this out of ATAG for similar issues. the trouble with toolbars is they are defined differently, and will they read the def 18:40:56 Glossary entry for _Toolbars and similar containers_: 18:40:58 A collection of commonly used controls presented in a region that can be 18:41:00 configured or navigated separately from other regions. Such containers 18:41:01 may be docked or free-floating, permanent or transient, integral to the 18:41:03 application or add-ons. Variations are often called toolbars, palettes, 18:41:05 panels, or inspectors. 18:42:12 gl: is the definition too broad. is a message box a toolbar? 18:43:12 jr: in 2.8.1 ANY is a problem. do we really want add, remove, etc of ANY UI component 18:43:59 kp: problem with getting things back. 18:44:01 What are examples of things that are like toolbars which we would not want or expect to be customizable? As Jan said, status bars, perhaps. 18:44:31 js: hearing that ANY is not a good thing. 18:44:51 jr: should we say 'at least one' rather than ANY 18:44:55 Another approach would be to say that user can choose which commands are available via a single click or gesture. 18:45:08 kelly and Kim and Jim +1 to jr above 18:45:14 ...or are always visible. 18:45:59 jr: YES 18:46:50 ... this is the principle I was shooting for 18:48:29 "The user can choose which commands are available via a single click or gesture, and which status displays are always visible." 18:48:55 mark and jan will play with the wording on 2.8 18:49:35 jr: seems to me to be 2 SCs, split them at the comma 18:51:10 JAllan_ has joined #ua 18:52:01 mh: there is a way in chrome to add shortcut keys to installed extensions. 18:52:56 js: from mobi a11y standards, is the ability to change the position of a toolbar. for folks who are one handed to move toolbars on one side of device 18:53:04 jr: will take that into account. 18:53:25 zakim, agenda? 18:53:25 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 18:53:26 close item 2 18:53:27 1. discuss UAAG Comment [from kford] 18:53:27 2. Finish off 2.8 Action-747 [from kford] 18:53:27 3. Levels Discussion [from kford] 18:53:27 4. Review Mobile example writing - send comments to the list. [from kford] 18:53:50 take up item 1 18:53:51 zakim, take up item 1 18:53:52 agendum 1. "discuss UAAG Comment" taken up [from kford] 18:57:46 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0025.html is Jim's mai of 2012-10-30 with comments from Thomas Sisson. 18:58:03 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2012Oct/0000.html 19:00:32 gl: sometimes trying to make content accessible may render the content unusable. 19:01:02 ... agree that the 'big hammer' of turning off style sheets is a last resort. 19:01:53 ja: there are OS controls and UA controls separate from rewriting CSS 19:04:57 ja: second paragraphs is poor design, and something that the user has to live with. We already have SC dealing with overriding scrollbar appearance. 19:07:10 gl UAAG has lots of SCs to allow the user to override many author errors. 19:10:02 mh: have seen examples of canvas where author is creating dialog boxes. font resizing or color if bitmapped text drawn by javascript. the UA does not know what the JS is doing. 19:11:15 gl: it would be nice if some search engine would allow you search by html element. 19:11:30 http://builtwith.com/ 19:11:51 http://trends.builtwith.com/docinfo/WAI-ARIA 19:11:55 jr: builtwith.com indexing of constructs used to build webpages. 19:12:39 http://trends.builtwith.com/docinfo/HTML-5-Specific-Tags 19:15:24 Jim will write a response to the comment 19:16:01 http://trends.builtwith.com/topsites/WAI-ARIA 19:21:04 can talk to them and ask them to add various elements 19:24:27 -Jan 19:24:28 -Markku 19:24:34 -Greg_Lowney 19:24:40 zakim, who is here? 19:24:40 On the phone I see Jeanne, Jim_Allan, kford, Kim_Patch 19:24:41 On IRC I see JAllan, mhakkinen, KimPatch, Jan, Greg, jeanne, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot 19:24:57 rrsagent, make minutes 19:24:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/08-ua-minutes.html JAllan 19:25:29 -Kim_Patch 19:25:35 zakim, who is here? 19:25:35 On the phone I see Jeanne, Jim_Allan, kford 19:25:36 On IRC I see JAllan, mhakkinen, KimPatch, Jan, Greg, jeanne, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot 19:33:32 -Jim_Allan 19:33:35 -Jeanne 19:38:35 disconnecting the lone participant, kford, in WAI_UAWG()1:00PM 19:38:36 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 19:38:36 Attendees were Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Greg_Lowney, kford, Jan, +1.609.734.aaaa, Kim_Patch, Markku 19:39:03 zakim, please part 19:39:03 Zakim has left #ua 19:39:11 rrsagent make minutes 19:39:18 rrsagent, make minutes 19:39:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/08-ua-minutes.html JAllan 19:39:46 chair: jimAllan, KellyFord 19:39:51 rrsagent, make minutes 19:39:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/08-ua-minutes.html JAllan 19:40:26 rrsagent, please part 19:40:26 I see no action items