02:04:57 sangwhan has joined #indie-ui 02:12:06 Judy has joined #indie-ui 07:45:45 andy has joined #indie-ui 07:51:57 smaug has joined #indie-ui 08:01:10 janina has joined #indie-ui 08:01:26 janina has changed the topic to: IndieUI F2F at TPAC2012; Friday 2 November 08:01:38 trackbot start meeting 08:01:50 Zakim has joined #indie-ui 08:02:30 Gottfried has joined #indie-ui 08:04:01 zakim, this will be WAI_Indie 08:04:01 ok, janina; I see WAI_Indie()3:00AM scheduled to start 64 minutes ago 08:04:09 zakim, who's on the phone? 08:04:09 WAI_Indie()3:00AM has not yet started, janina 08:04:10 On IRC I see Gottfried, Zakim, janina, smaug, andy, sangwhan, trackbot, tpacbot, RRSAgent 08:05:19 MichaelC has joined #indie-ui 08:06:52 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #indie-ui 08:10:59 jcraig has joined #indie-ui 08:11:04 Ryladog has joined #Indie-UI 08:13:07 Scribe:Ryladog 08:14:57 TOPIC: GPII video - Cloud for All Overview -- Gottfried Zimmerman 08:21:44 smaug_ has joined #indie-ui 08:21:49 Lachy has joined #indie-ui 08:22:04 GPII video: http://gpii.net/node/108 08:23:48 GZ: I am happy and excited about IndieUI as it could be an integral part of GPII 08:24:06 David_MacD_Lenovo has joined #indie-ui 08:24:10 GZ: My presentation is about User Prefernces 08:25:00 GZ: GPII is Global, No Loyalty, It is an infrasctucture - building streets not cars 08:25:28 GZ: It needs the adoption by industry so that the cars can comeinto the street 08:25:29 q+ to ask about relationship to Raising the Floor 08:25:35 s/Loyalty/royalities 08:25:53 GZ: It is about storing User Settings/preference locally or in the cloud 08:26:26 GZ: Cloud for All. Everything that involve UIs 08:26:46 GZ: GPII is a global initiative 08:27:30 GZ: Gregg Vanderheiden, Jim Tobias and other took it from NPII to GPII 08:27:31 q- 08:28:59 GZ: Raising the Floor International is promoting/hosting/organizing GPII - and Cloud for All is a Eurpeon project contributes to GPII. There are 27 partners 08:32:01 GZ: The GPII video shows the goal of GP But now I want to talk about user needs, preferences 08:37:56 GZ: ISO/IEC 24751-2:2008: Is currently working with the GPII effort to revise it 08:40:21 shepazu has joined #indie-ui 08:41:22 GZ: W3C, ISO and IMS are all working on similar standards for Uses Needs 08:43:13 GZ: None of the current standards address the CONTEXT - 08:43:52 Judy has joined #indie-ui 08:44:54 GZ: Zimmermann - Personalization Concepts in GPII 08:49:54 Joshue108 has joined #indie-ui 08:51:13 GZ: Define and develop a registry of User Preferences 08:53:20 GZ: defining property and values of devices for a registry for User Preferences and Contexts 08:58:05 jkiss has joined #indie-ui 09:03:06 GZ: We would like feedback from Indie-UI because we want to harmonize 09:14:08 sangwhan has joined #indie-ui 09:16:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 09:16:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html sangwhan 09:16:19 Judy has joined #indie-ui 09:19:54 q+ to talk about inferring medical / disability info - even to the point of being useful in diagnostics but scary privacy 09:20:15 GZ: We need a modern Security architecture and users need to be able see what is stored about them. 09:20:40 GZ: Cloud4All started a year ago 09:21:03 sangwhan has joined #indie-ui 09:21:27 GZ: Cloud4All expected to end by Oct 2015 09:21:49 q+ 09:22:36 RS: Were you looking to do transformations on anyones content in the MatchMaker? 09:23:12 GZ: No. Matchmaker is meant to propose and suggest new ways to improve the user experince 09:27:41 q? 09:27:50 ack me 09:27:50 MichaelC, you wanted to talk about inferring medical / disability info - even to the point of being useful in diagnostics but scary privacy 09:28:02 smaug has joined #indie-ui 09:29:03 Michael: If rousyou doctor knew about some of these issues, he could help you, but, from a Privacy perspective that could be dange 09:29:29 GZ: The MatchMaker has no idea of who you are 09:29:37 q+ 09:30:01 ack me 09:30:10 ack l 09:30:10 q+ to indicate this is a lofty, yet worthwhile goal, but also wanted to express concerns about applying this across personal devices, context/condition changes likely to confuse users, and recommendation to stick to public kiosk-type machines 09:30:25 GZ: Matchmaker will get anonymous sets from the preferences server 09:31:13 LH: I think that these ideas are external and out of scope for this working group 09:31:59 q+ 09:32:15 LH: Why are we spending so much time on these things out of scope issue? 09:33:36 q? 09:33:38 ack q 09:33:43 q? 09:33:44 GZ: I would agree it is mostly out of scope, but the user needs and contexts work done by Access4ALL, GPII and Cloud4All may be useful for IndieUI 09:33:47 ack and 09:33:47 ack andy 09:33:51 q? 09:34:36 q? 09:35:35 AH: Indie UI can use a smaller set of user needs and events - and this can work for now. Longer term I thing that we want compatability of term 09:36:03 GZ: Let decide on a Core set and then we can go register them with GPII 09:36:31 ack jcr 09:36:31 jcraig, you wanted to indicate this is a lofty, yet worthwhile goal, but also wanted to express concerns about applying this across personal devices, context/condition changes 09:36:35 ... likely to confuse users, and recommendation to stick to public kiosk-type machines 09:36:35 AH: Secuirty challange is ovewhelming 09:37:04 JC: I think this is lofty - and therefore might be unsolvable 09:39:11 JC: or example, I thonk storing user pref is a great idea. But storing this in the cloud - I do not think will be doable. What if a bank kiosk and the sun hit the screen. There are so many conditions 09:39:49 JC: So many issues that cant be solved by an outside MatchMaker and the user may be frustrated 09:40:46 JC: There seems to be a great potential for confusion for the user if the Match Maker gets it wrong 09:41:44 q+ 09:42:10 GZ: I think you have kicked the features that are way down the pike. Current set is much simpler. It is ambitious. Some of it vendor already do, but we want to store across platforms 09:43:12 q? 09:43:21 JC: On a smaller scale, on like machine, like ATMs, kiosks, etc - this concept has the best inroad 09:44:12 JC: Being able to request setting across devices may not be necessary 09:44:42 GZ: But the Matchmaker will not give the TV setting for an ATM 09:44:57 q? 09:45:55 JC: Best to concentrate on public like devices - and less on personal devices 09:46:07 q? 09:47:29 RS: I have some business needs to be addressed right now 09:48:47 RS: Our Business Analytic team does not understand the needs of the client. 09:50:10 Judy has joined #indie-ui 10:02:12 jkiss has joined #indie-ui 10:21:41 q? 10:21:55 q? 10:21:57 ack 10:22:00 q? 10:22:05 ack 10:22:08 q? 10:22:11 ack richard 10:23:01 http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#S10:_Command_to_direct_a_media_player_to_pause_playing 10:23:32 Judy has joined #indie-ui 10:24:05 gaiaphj has joined #indie-ui 10:24:12 scribe:andy 10:24:25 http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#S13:_Command_to_the_media_player_to_toggle_rendering_captions 10:25:11 rich:toggling captions - do we use an event or throughout the context 10:25:29 wilhelm has joined #indie-ui 10:26:08 could send an event directly or a property change that required an event 10:26:41 this may be superfliuous 10:26:49 tabled till browser ppl in the room 10:26:53 S14: 10:27:00 to increase the volume 10:27:22 increase/decrease the volume 10:28:13 can't be done with a preference 10:28:36 needs two events for increase and decrease 10:30:13 Action: jcraig add RequestVolumeIncrease and RequestVolumeDecrease events 10:30:14 Created ACTION-19 - Add RequestVolumeIncrease and RequestVolumeDecrease events [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09]. 10:30:18 needs mute, mute-on and mute-off 10:32:44 could be one event with a parameter 10:33:43 David_MacD_Lenovo has joined #indie-ui 10:33:55 need a new use case for mute 10:35:05 two variations a mute - a toggle and a mute-on and mute-off 10:35:29 gaiaphj has joined #indie-ui 10:36:28 needs mute-on/mutte off because say a television might be muted and the user doesn't realise as there is no sound at that momemt 10:37:14 s/might be muted/might be unmuted 10:37:33 Joshue108 has joined #indie-ui 10:38:15 Action: jcraig add RequestMute event with three values (on, off, toggle) 10:38:15 Created ACTION-20 - Add RequestMute event with three values (on, off, toggle) [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09]. 10:38:20 for similar reasons to discussion of pause/play yesterday 10:38:52 next use case - command to zoom in - S16 10:40:44 returning to captions use case S13 10:41:19 if we have a property for captions do we need another event for that 10:41:56 jcraig: 10:43:09 keep caption event simple - on, off and toggle event 10:43:18 languages as a preference 10:43:37 AfA has similar like transcript for example 10:44:03 all dealt with as prefs, including priortiy 10:44:10 if we want 10:45:04 how is the user going to trigger mute 10:45:17 gottfried - could be multiple sounds 10:45:56 captions - event will be captions on, off, toggle 10:45:57 Action: jcraig add RequestCaption with property values (on, off, toggle) 10:45:57 Created ACTION-21 - Add RequestCaption with property values (on, off, toggle) [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09]. 10:46:20 need volume increase and decrease as well 10:46:32 back to S16 10:47:09 do we need vibration or not? 10:47:35 css have discussed vibrate 10:48:40 some devices can do it 10:48:50 why would the web app need to know ? 10:49:00 ACTION: jcraig to add zoomRequest with property zoomIn, zoomOut, or specific zoomLevel? 10:49:01 Created ACTION-22 - Add zoomRequest with property zoomIn, zoomOut, or specific zoomLevel? [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09]. 10:49:34 gaiaphj has joined #indie-ui 10:49:46 web app content might wish to trigger that 10:50:30 vibration is not an event because its an output 10:50:48 next use case - panning 10:51:02 Judy has joined #indie-ui 10:52:24 jcraig - we want panning not in 8 directions but in 360 degrees 10:52:47 ACTION: jcraig to add panRequest (may already be in) with pan direction and distance 10:52:47 Created ACTION-23 - Add panRequest (may already be in) with pan direction and distance [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09]. 10:54:31 next use case - homing in - S18 10:55:47 David_MacD_Lenovo has joined #indie-ui 10:55:48 jcraig - need point-of-regard change request 10:56:06 rich - could have next, prev, home etc. as params 10:57:03 rich - these are logical, the directional one may need a separate event 10:57:32 jcraig - these are navigation, the others are directional-navigation 10:57:56 ACTION: jcraig to work in point-of-regard change request(s) with both 2-dimensional (up, down, left, right) and linear (home, end, pageup, pagedown, next previous, etc) 10:57:56 Created ACTION-24 - Work in point-of-regard change request(s) with both 2-dimensional (up, down, left, right) and linear (home, end, pageup, pagedown, next previous, etc) [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09]. 10:58:24 Use case S20 10:58:40 grab an object 10:58:55 rich - assuming its already selected 10:59:21 jcraig - aria drag and drop is not really drag and drop 10:59:36 q+ 10:59:38 sangwhan has joined #indie-ui 10:59:51 jcraig - the web app should not have to manage this 11:00:56 jcraig - having separate event that work outside the html context isn't the right way to do it 11:02:01 rich - does html have an event for grabbing as part of drop 11:02:29 scraig - need explicit drag targets and drop targets - there is nothing in AT to indicate these 11:03:13 s/scraig/jcraig 11:04:17 shoe - there is impetus to work on d and d 2 - there is also clipboard operations (which are similar) 11:04:28 s/shoe/shepazu/ 11:06:02 jcraig - elements need to declare themselves as drag targets and drop targets rather than using keyboard methods - should be copy and paste 11:07:49 shepazu explains d and d inside and between apps 11:08:13 shepazu - we are conflicting events and requests to do something 11:08:29 smaug has joined #indie-ui 11:09:07 jcraig - we are calling them events but each is named as a request because they are notifications 11:11:30 jcraig - we are currently doing d and d as cut/copy and paste 11:12:38 rich - we never know on a desktop whether something is going to be grabbed or not 11:13:03 SimonSapin has joined #indie-ui 11:13:15 rich - after a grab a drop could be a paste, it could cause an execution and other things 11:14:56 SimonSapin has left #indie-ui 11:15:00 jcraig - its all determined by the context at the stop sirte 11:15:07 s/sirte/site/ 11:15:59 shepazu - confusion UI d and d with the notion of indicating some function 11:17:17 rich - I need to be able to identify what are the objects on the screen that are grabbable 11:18:17 janina - if html are going to redo d and d then we need to do something with this 11:18:38 MichaelC - need to create an issue in their tracker ? 11:18:49 ISSUE: Discuss drag/drop with PF and HTML (need cut/copy markers and well as drop targets) 11:18:49 Created ISSUE-7 - Discuss drag/drop with PF and HTML (need cut/copy markers and well as drop targets) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/issues/7/edit . 11:19:44 rich explains with the aid of a whiteboard diagram 13:14:03 RRSAgent has joined #indie-ui 13:14:03 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-irc 13:14:07 Zakim has joined #indie-ui 13:14:24 zakim, make minutes 13:14:24 I don't understand 'make minutes', Gottfried 13:14:41 Scribenick: Gottfried 13:14:54 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:14:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html Gottfried 13:15:42 Gottfried: For now, stick to the use cases. There may be extensions in the next version. 13:16:15 Chair: Janina 13:16:22 Zakim, this is WAI_Indie 13:16:22 sangwhan, I see WAI_Indie()3:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be WAI_Indie". 13:16:32 Zakim, this will be WAI_Indie 13:16:32 ok, sangwhan; I see WAI_Indie()3:00AM scheduled to start 376 minutes ago 13:17:01 Rich: We should circulate the drag&drop use case by HTML5. Obviously, we have a terminology conflict between WAI-ARIA and HTML5. 13:17:25 Meeting: Indie UI Task Force Face to Face 13:17:42 Scribe: Gottfried 13:17:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:17:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html sangwhan 13:17:59 S22: http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#S22:_Start_discontinuous_multi-slection_within_a_UI_object 13:20:17 Rich: Not working well for mobile solutions. 13:20:37 Lachlan: We should look how these devices handle keys for native control. 13:23:06 Rich: You need to know that the object is multi-selectable. And that it is possible to select discontinuous items. 13:23:52 Lachlan: iOS presents a separate list with each item selectable. 13:24:12 ... A custom event would probably work with multiple click events. 13:24:25 ... We don't need to consider this as a use case for us. 13:24:48 Andy: What if it is not visual? 13:25:12 Lachlan: Same as with other assistance. 13:27:00 ... Typical: email application. Select all, invert selection, etc. are just links. You usually don't see a simulation of a native control in the Web. 13:27:40 Rich: Do we need a command for selection? 13:27:46 Lachlan: Click event should suffice. 13:29:32 sangwhan has joined #indie-ui 13:29:38 sangwhan1 has joined #indie-ui 13:30:30 Rich: Looking at Yahoo email application. It would be easier to navigate over the items, and for each item be able to send a select event. 13:30:54 ... Looks like this row is focusable, and you can just send a select event. 13:32:27 jcraig has joined #indie-ui 13:34:36 Lachlan: How does a user trigger this action, in a device-independent way? 13:35:03 ... If using device-dependent things, that limits its use. 13:36:24 James: Is there a use case that allows the user to check an arbitrary check box, e.g. by speech? 13:36:30 ... "Select this" 13:36:48 Rich: If there is something that is checkable, why not having a check event for this? 13:38:37 Andy: This is similar to drag&drop, solve it by marking? 13:39:03 James: But mark should not deselect a previous one. 13:39:29 ... Do we need a property that says that it is multi-markable? 13:40:07 Lachlan: How to trigger this special event? 13:40:19 James: Click the first one, and hold the shift key, moving down. 13:40:42 ... That could fire a mark on each one in the sequence. 13:41:36 Lachlan: If the checkboxes are in the same group, maybe this could be built into the platform. 13:41:47 Andy: What about "add to previous selection"? 13:42:09 Lachlan: If it behaves like a native checkbox, it could work. 13:42:31 James: Could bubble up, and be handled by the app. 13:42:48 Joshue108 has joined #indie-ui 13:42:55 Lachlan: role="checkbox" 13:43:13 Rich: You could have 5 checkboxes. 13:43:51 shepazu has joined #indie-ui 13:43:57 James: For example in CSS: font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif 13:44:13 ... role="switch checkbox" 13:44:22 ... checkbox as a fall-back for switch 13:45:28 ... We could also have "slider spinbutton" 13:46:26 ... action attribute, listing possible requests: action="valuechange" 13:46:38 s/action/actions 13:46:51 ... actions="mark" 13:47:23 Rich: We can have a list of actions 13:47:34 Lachlan: This as markup in HTML5? 13:47:44 James: Could be aria-actions 13:48:10 ... Could be a direct mapping from ARIA 13:48:49 David_MacD_Lenovo has joined #indie-ui 13:49:16 ... Mark event would be canceled and thus tell the AT that it was perceived. 13:50:05 James: An author may not find a mapping to a role, but may know how to respond to some events. That's what @actions is for. 13:51:36 Lachlan: If we want to make it easy for web developers to allow range selections, the browser could interpret the user's action. 13:52:58 ... Browser could send select-range request to the Web app. 13:53:08 James: How to do this on a custom element? 13:53:17 Lachlan: If it has role assigned, would work. 13:55:01 James: How would the application learn about the user action? Multiple selection events or one select-range? 13:55:15 ... Wouldn't it be better to fire mark-requests first? 13:55:30 Lachlan: Range-request - could work as a single event 13:56:44 q+ 13:57:28 James: Could be select-all-from-last-mark event 13:57:46 Rich: User agents should not have to be so smart to predict what the application is going to do 13:58:23 Rich: Like this solution 13:58:44 ... The user knows that they want to mark a range. 13:58:50 ack 13:59:13 Andy: So this is separate from normal selection? 13:59:44 James: Is the range from previous selection or previous mark? 13:59:52 s/James/Andy 13:59:59 James: It's from the previous mark 14:03:27 Rich: So do we need multiple events? 14:03:36 James: It can be one event with different properties 14:04:12 Judy has joined #indie-ui 14:04:29 James: At first, we thought that independent events would block standard events, but that's not kept now. 14:05:53 ... Fire the intentional event just prior to the up event of a key. The author needs to be able to react to the IndieUI event before receiving the last key event in a series. 14:06:05 Rich: We could also use this to mark a range of text. 14:06:23 Lachlan: That's handled by the native selection process. 14:06:29 James: Yes, with contenteditable 14:08:15 Lachlan: Could an implementation natively fire subsequent select events in order to perform a range-select? 14:08:26 James: That would break the expected default actions for a role. 14:09:01 shepazu has joined #indie-ui 14:12:13 Rich: This is going to be much cleaner. No modifier keys etc. 14:12:46 Joshue108 has joined #indie-ui 14:13:29 action: jcraig to add markRequest with variant properties indicating "mark in addition to" and "include range from last mark", similar to the table selection interpretation of shift+click and cmd+click, or shift+ctrl+click on different implementations. 14:13:30 Created ACTION-25 - Add markRequest with variant properties indicating "mark in addition to" and "include range from last mark", similar to the table selection interpretation of shift+click and cmd+click, or shift+ctrl+click on different implementations. [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09]. 14:13:43 http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#S24:_Save_selection_and_stop_the_multi-selection_process_within_a_UI_object 14:15:29 s/@actions is for/@actions [could be] for (whether @aria-actions, @ui-actions, etc. native HTML or SVG @actions, whatever)/ 14:16:13 Rich: Who is going to do the copying? 14:16:53 James: We don't need this. 14:17:02 Gottfried: Just tab out. Would automatically be saved. 14:17:53 Rich: Is "clear prior selection" a parameter for mark? 14:18:16 James: You would just select something else. 14:28:07 James: mark event with the following property: retain (the previous selection) 14:28:20 Lachlan: That is the standard behavior for checkboxes anyway. 14:28:58 smaug has joined #indie-ui 14:29:18 James: The other property is: include-range-from-last-mark 14:30:48 Lachlan: The browser may not know whether there was a last selection, and just send the retain=true. 14:31:24 Judy_clone has joined #indie-ui 14:32:06 http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#S25:_Stop_and_clear_the_multi-selection_process_within_a_UI_object 14:32:21 Rich: We don't need S25, right? 14:32:22 Yes 14:32:35 s/Yes/agreement 14:32:42 maybe a retainMarks property (like Cmd+Click) and fromLast (like Shift+Click) 14:33:15 though I dislike the name "fromLast" 15:00:06 jcraig has joined #indie-ui 15:09:01 smaug has joined #indie-ui 15:11:22 shepazu has joined #indie-ui 15:13:27 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:13:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html Lachy 15:15:09 RRSAgent: help 15:16:03 jkiss has joined #indie-ui 15:17:06 I believe 26-29 covered by valueChangeRequest on each representative UI element, maybe a sizeChangeRequest variant? 15:19:20 lh: shift modifier on mouse drags constrains proportions and option modifier 15:21:07 s/option/lock centerpoint/ 15:29:22 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #indie-ui 15:29:55 ACTION: jcraig to research UI manipulation of size in graphics programs; may need a sizeChangeRequest event with an [x,y,(z?)] values and event properties "constrain proportions" and "lock centerpoint" 15:29:55 Created ACTION-26 - Research UI manipulation of size in graphics programs; may need a sizeChangeRequest event with an [x,y,(z?)] values and event properties "constrain proportions" and "lock centerpoint" [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09]. 15:34:05 perhaps a moveRequest? almost identical to a map pan but with opposite direction. 15:34:28 katie: may overlap with scroll views 15:35:07 jc: except scroll views have limits, and maps are like a scroll view with no limits 15:40:21 action: jcraig to consider moveRequest in the context of scrollRequest and panRequest 15:40:21 Created ACTION-27 - Consider moveRequest in the context of scrollRequest and panRequest [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09]. 15:44:19 I think 31 and 32 are covered by expand/collapse request events, which are already in the spec. 15:52:12 action: jcraig to consider show/hide details as expand/collpse or possibly ???/dismiss. 15:52:12 Created ACTION-28 - Consider show/hide details as expand/collpse or possibly ???/dismiss. [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09]. 15:53:05 Judy has joined #indie-ui 15:57:19 USe case S33 15:57:45 closeness indication - is this the same as hover ? 15:58:26 unsure the purpose of this use case 15:58:35 more infer required 15:58:40 Use case 34: 15:59:46 34 is mouse out 15:59:57 34 to the end are not defined enough to address 16:07:52 Zakim has left #indie-ui 16:14:46 test 16:14:55 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:14:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger 16:15:08 zakim, makeminutes 16:15:38 zakim, bye 16:15:49 Zakim bye 16:16:00 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:16:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger 16:17:25 andy has left #indie-ui 17:13:59 smaug has joined #indie-ui 20:14:19 Joshue108 has joined #indie-ui 21:41:13 Judy has joined #indie-ui 23:34:57 Judy has left #indie-ui