IRC log of dap on 2012-11-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

01:00:20 [sicking]
sicking has joined #dap
01:02:38 [npdoty]
npdoty has joined #dap
04:54:41 [hta]
hta has joined #dap
06:00:52 [tomoyuki]
tomoyuki has joined #dap
06:21:22 [kensaku]
kensaku has joined #dap
06:55:09 [darobin]
darobin has joined #dap
07:02:11 [Hidetoshi]
Hidetoshi has joined #dap
07:17:02 [Hidetoshi]
Hidetoshi has joined #dap
07:18:45 [hta]
hta has joined #dap
07:27:27 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #dap
07:29:25 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #dap
07:30:41 [Hidetoshi]
Hidetoshi has joined #dap
07:36:09 [tomoyuki]
tomoyuki has joined #dap
07:42:24 [Hidetoshi]
Hidetoshi has joined #dap
07:42:36 [Yoshiharu]
Yoshiharu has joined #dap
07:42:46 [shan]
shan has joined #dap
07:42:48 [kensaku]
kensaku has joined #dap
07:42:49 [Hidetoshi]
Hidetoshi has joined #dap
07:43:15 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #dap
07:43:56 [sakkuru]
sakkuru has joined #dap
07:44:22 [jsoh]
jsoh has joined #dap
07:44:45 [GregBillock]
GregBillock has joined #dap
07:47:46 [darobin]
darobin has joined #dap
07:49:29 [Youngsun]
Youngsun has joined #dap
07:49:54 [AnssiK]
AnssiK has joined #dap
07:50:23 [a12u]
a12u has joined #dap
07:56:50 [sakkuru]
sakkuru has joined #dap
07:57:50 [dnkim]
dnkim has joined #dap
07:59:20 [youenn]
youenn has joined #dap
07:59:25 [nkic]
nkic has joined #dap
08:00:01 [Hidetoshi]
Hidetoshi has joined #dap
08:00:29 [kinji]
kinji has joined #dap
08:01:04 [dom]
dom has joined #dap
08:01:43 [yamaday]
yamaday has joined #dap
08:02:25 [tlr]
tlr has joined #dap
08:02:43 [jcdufourd]
jcdufourd has joined #dap
08:03:08 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #dap
08:04:45 [Yoshihiro]
Yoshihiro has joined #dap
08:04:45 [giuseppe]
giuseppe has joined #dap
08:05:00 [sato]
sato has joined #dap
08:05:32 [nwidell]
nwidell has joined #dap
08:05:42 [Claes]
Claes has joined #dap
08:06:02 [Claes]
Present+ Claes_Nilsson
08:06:12 [nwidell]
nwidell has joined #dap
08:06:27 [Jungkee]
Jungkee has joined #dap
08:06:27 [shoko_]
shoko_ has joined #dap
08:06:29 [giuseppe]
present+ giuseppe
08:06:33 [dom]
RRSAgent, pointer
08:06:33 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-irc#T08-06-33
08:06:38 [Jungkee]
Present+ Jungkee_Song
08:06:47 [dom]
trackbot, start meeting
08:06:49 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
08:06:49 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #dap
08:06:51 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DAP
08:06:52 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference
08:06:52 [trackbot]
Date: 02 November 2012
08:06:53 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
08:07:00 [dom]
s/Teleconference/F2F
08:07:07 [dom]
Chair: fjh
08:08:52 [Takahiro]
Takahiro has joined #dap
08:09:15 [bryan]
bryan has joined #dap
08:09:28 [bryan]
present+ Bryan_Sullivan
08:09:39 [giuseppe]
Scribe: giuseppe
08:09:42 [christine]
christine has joined #dap
08:09:46 [giuseppe]
Scribenick: giuseppe
08:10:00 [rigo]
rigo has joined #dap
08:10:06 [dom]
Topic: Privacy
08:10:20 [a12u]
Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu
08:10:23 [Milan_Patel]
Milan_Patel has joined #dap
08:10:38 [kensaku]
Present+ Kensaku_Komatsu
08:10:53 [Milan_Patel]
Present+ Milan_Patel
08:11:08 [nkic]
Present+ Norifumi_Kikkawa
08:11:10 [geun_hyung]
geun_hyung has joined #dap
08:11:26 [nwidell]
Present+ Niklas_Widell
08:11:35 [youenn]
Present+ Youenn_Fablet
08:11:40 [shan]
Present+ Soonbo_Han
08:11:46 [gmandyam]
gmandyam has joined #dap
08:11:49 [Yoshiharu]
+Present Yoshiharu_Dewa
08:11:54 [dcheng3]
dcheng3 has joined #dap
08:11:54 [Yuan]
Yuan has joined #dap
08:11:59 [dcheng3]
Present+ Diana_Cheng
08:12:02 [sato]
Present+ Naoyuki_Sato
08:12:03 [christine]
Hi. Christine Runnegar (Internet Society and co-chair of the Privacy Interest Group (PING)).
08:12:04 [giuseppe]
RRSAgent, make minutes
08:12:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html giuseppe
08:12:05 [gmandyam]
Giri Mandyam from Qualcomm Innovation Center (QuIC)
08:12:13 [bryan]
i'll help, giuseppe
08:12:33 [dom]
Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux_(w3c)
08:12:48 [giuseppe]
present+ gmandyam
08:12:58 [geun_hyung]
Presetnt+ GeunHyung_Kim
08:13:13 [shige__]
shige__ has joined #dap
08:13:34 [waynecarr]
waynecarr has joined #dap
08:14:53 [JonathanJ1]
JonathanJ1 has joined #DAP
08:15:08 [giuseppe]
???: I'll start with the demo
08:15:14 [leetv]
leetv has joined #dap
08:15:33 [giuseppe]
... not the full demo like yesterday but I'll show the demo and the spec and we can discuss potential problems
08:15:38 [robint]
robint has joined #dap
08:15:48 [leetv2]
leetv2 has joined #dap
08:15:58 [hitoshi]
hitoshi has joined #dap
08:16:05 [bryan]
s/???/Jungkee/
08:16:23 [bryan]
Jungkee Song, Samsung
08:16:23 [jcdufourd]
Present+ Jean-Claude_Dufourd
08:16:41 [giuseppe]
... pick contant and pick media intents
08:16:45 [AnssiK]
Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
08:17:02 [giuseppe]
... they use web intents
08:17:23 [JonathanJ1]
JonathanJ1 has joined #DAP
08:17:28 [giuseppe]
fjl: should we explain what are we doing at high level first?
08:17:54 [giuseppe]
jungkee: we want to retrieve contacts on local devices but also on remote services
08:18:00 [bryan]
s/fjl/fjh/
08:18:10 [AnssiK]
Pick Contacts Intent spec: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/contacts/Overview.html
08:18:11 [anant]
anant has joined #dap
08:18:24 [npdoty]
npdoty has joined #dap
08:18:47 [timeless]
present+ Josh_Soref
08:19:12 [Yuan]
Present+ Yuan_Ji
08:19:12 [giuseppe]
... (explains the demo)
08:19:15 [timeless]
s/+Present/Present+/
08:19:17 [sunghan]
sunghan has joined #dap
08:19:39 [fjh]
fjh has joined #dap
08:19:55 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
08:19:55 [Zakim]
sorry, fjh, I don't know what conference this is
08:19:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see fjh, sunghan, npdoty, anant, JonathanJ1, hitoshi, leetv2, robint, leetv, waynecarr, shige__, Yuan, dcheng3, gmandyam, geun_hyung, Milan_Patel, rigo, christine, bryan,
08:19:56 [Zakim]
... Takahiro, Zakim, shoko_, Jungkee, nwidell, Claes, sato, giuseppe
08:20:07 [fjh]
zakim, this is dap
08:20:07 [Zakim]
sorry, fjh, I do not see a conference named 'dap' in progress or scheduled at this time
08:20:13 [timeless]
present+ Christine_Runnegar
08:20:28 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:20:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html timeless
08:20:52 [SungOk_You_]
SungOk_You_ has joined #dap
08:21:00 [kawakami]
kawakami has joined #dap
08:21:13 [giuseppe]
jungkee: the code used for the demo is similar to the example code in the spec
08:21:22 [giuseppe]
... we use a pick action
08:21:27 [timeless]
s/Presetnt/Present/
08:21:56 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:21:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html timeless
08:22:06 [giuseppe]
... "action: http://intents.w3.org/pick"
08:22:29 [giuseppe]
... type: "http://intents.w3c.org/type/contact"
08:22:48 [giuseppe]
... so we use pick intent and contact type
08:23:14 [JonathanJ1]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:23:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html JonathanJ1
08:23:18 [giuseppe]
... after creating this intent the client call startActivity with this intent object
08:23:36 [giuseppe]
... when the user has selected a service and is in the service page
08:23:44 [giuseppe]
... then the callback is called on the client side
08:23:50 [bjkim]
bjkim has joined #dap
08:23:54 [JonathanJ1]
Present+ Jonathan_Jeon
08:24:13 [giuseppe]
... let me show the Service part
08:24:30 [giuseppe]
... I'll show pick media since I didn't have time to add this to the pick contact spec
08:24:38 [giuseppe]
... but pick media is versy similar
08:24:58 [richt]
richt has joined #dap
08:25:11 [giuseppe]
... the service side call postResult with the result that wants to send back to the client
08:25:19 [npdoty]
sees at least 4 different relevant parties: the user, the user agent, the client, the implementer of the service
08:25:24 [giuseppe]
... after postResult is called, the callback is invoked in the client
08:26:03 [rigo]
can someone post the URI of the Draft?
08:26:04 [richt]
Present+ Rich_Tibbett
08:26:26 [richt]
Contact Picker Intent draft: http://www.w3.org/TR/contacts-api/
08:26:37 [giuseppe]
... (goes through the attributes of the contact class)
08:26:51 [giuseppe]
s/Contact class/ Contact dictionary/
08:26:57 [timeless]
s/Contact Picker Intent draft:/->/
08:27:06 [Wonsuk]
Wonsuk has joined #dap
08:27:16 [timeless]
s|/|/ Contact Picker Intent draft|
08:27:28 [shoko_]
shoko_ has joined #dap
08:28:08 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:28:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html timeless
08:28:29 [kensaku]
Pick Media Intent draft: http://www.w3.org/TR/gallery/
08:28:51 [timeless]
s|s/Contact class/ Contact dictionary/ Contact Picker Intent draft||
08:29:01 [timeless]
s|Pick Media Intent draft:|->|
08:29:07 [timeless]
s|/|/ Pick Media Intent draft|
08:29:32 [timeless]
s|api/|api/ Contact Picker Intent draft|
08:29:34 [npdoty]
is this really a hint? the draft says "MUST NOT return defined fields on the contact objects that it provides other than those present in this list"
08:29:37 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:29:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html timeless
08:29:50 [AnssiK]
Pick Contacts Intent Editor's Draft: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/contacts/Overview.html
08:29:50 [npdoty]
although `search` is explicitly a hint, this seems like a hard requirement
08:30:03 [dom]
+1 on npdoty
08:30:15 [AnssiK]
[I think there are substantial changes from the published WD?]
08:30:26 [giuseppe]
dom: I think what is a hint is the search parameter, not the list of fields
08:30:29 [timeless]
s|Pick Contacts Intent Editor's Draft: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/contacts/Overview.html|-">http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/contacts/Overview.html|-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/contacts/Overview.html Pick Contacts Intent Editor's Draft|
08:30:43 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:30:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html timeless
08:31:02 [giuseppe]
... you can always limit which fields are returned
08:31:19 [giuseppe]
... if the service allows it the user can also select other fields
08:31:36 [smaug]
smaug has joined #dap
08:32:00 [timeless]
q+ Josh_Soref to say i'm willing to give up removing the search bit as long as we rename the field to include `hint`
08:32:01 [giuseppe]
fjh: the question is what else can we do for privacy
08:32:08 [timeless]
q?
08:32:19 [giuseppe]
rigo: I have questions
08:32:32 [giuseppe]
... afaiu you can use this for personal contact
08:32:44 [hao_]
hao_ has joined #dap
08:32:47 [giuseppe]
... you can get contact from your devices but also use a directory service
08:33:00 [giuseppe]
jungkee: yes
08:33:03 [adrianba]
adrianba has joined #dap
08:33:10 [giuseppe]
rigo: the distrinction you should made in your spec
08:33:25 [giuseppe]
... is that the attac model is different if you are using local contact or directory services
08:33:44 [timeless]
s/attac/attack/
08:34:12 [JonathanJ3]
JonathanJ3 has joined #dap
08:34:16 [giuseppe]
... we don't need to be prescriptive but we can provide guidelines, best practices
08:34:40 [npdoty]
q+ are you sure it's required?
08:34:45 [bryan]
q+ to suggest that we address overall service design guidelines outside the spec as needed
08:34:46 [npdoty]
q+ to ask are you sure it's required?
08:35:26 [giuseppe]
josh: I don't think this is a really issue, a directory service should be really broken if it gives you back more than the user asked you
08:35:33 [fjh]
q+
08:35:37 [giuseppe]
... so I don't think this is an issue in reality
08:35:42 [fjh]
ack Josh_Soref
08:35:42 [Zakim]
Josh_Soref, you wanted to say i'm willing to give up removing the search bit as long as we rename the field to include `hint`
08:35:47 [fjh]
ack bryan
08:35:47 [Zakim]
bryan, you wanted to suggest that we address overall service design guidelines outside the spec as needed
08:35:47 [giuseppe]
... we cannot fix broekn services
08:35:56 [giuseppe]
bryan: I think is good if we develop best practices
08:35:58 [timeless]
s/broekn/broken/
08:36:05 [fjh]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-app-privacy-bp-20120703/
08:36:07 [timeless]
s/josh:/Josh_Soref:/
08:36:09 [giuseppe]
... we cannot prevent poorly designed services
08:36:30 [giuseppe]
... but the API is user driven, intended to optimize user experience
08:36:54 [dom]
(in practice, any query-able directory service has already a way to prevent this kind of problem)
08:37:12 [npdoty]
I agree that the Web Application Privacy Best Practices doc may be good to point to
08:37:22 [giuseppe]
ringo: ok, I get this, but still for web developers is important to understand the difference between accessing contacts from the device and contacts from the web
08:37:26 [npdoty]
... though perhaps it could be more specific for intent service implementers
08:37:45 [npdoty]
s/ringo/rigo/
08:38:18 [giuseppe]
... in the second case, you have to deal with all sort of issues like why are they accessing these data, how long they want to keep them, what they want to do with them etc
08:38:24 [dom]
[we need compatibility with vcard]
08:38:42 [fjh]
q?
08:38:55 [bryan]
q+
08:39:08 [giuseppe]
... we should look into what ??? have done, they have a schema for contacts
08:39:19 [richt]
The Web API Design Cookbook may be useful in this discussion also (based on our experiences designing these APIs) -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-api-design-20121002/
08:39:23 [Milan_Patel]
Milan_Patel has joined #dap
08:39:38 [Milan_Patel]
Present+ Milan_Patel
08:39:44 [giuseppe]
Josh_Soref: we need to have compatibility with vcard format
08:39:45 [SungOk_You__]
SungOk_You__ has joined #dap
08:39:47 [fjh]
ack npdoty
08:39:47 [Zakim]
npdoty, you wanted to ask are you sure it's required?
08:39:56 [giuseppe]
???: I have few comments
08:40:13 [giuseppe]
... first of all the limit fields is an excelent practice
08:40:14 [timeless]
s/???/npdoty/
08:40:23 [shepazu]
shepazu has joined #dap
08:40:28 [timeless]
s/excelent/excellent/
08:40:47 [rigo]
is there use of https? I think that's the first thing the data protection authorities will ask for
08:41:08 [giuseppe]
... I think DAP has done some work for some API to be user initiatied
08:41:25 [giuseppe]
... we where talking about web intents in web apps early this week
08:41:31 [giuseppe]
if they could be user initiated
08:41:34 [bryan]
rigo, were you suggesting in your comments that we include intended uses (expressed by the app) and allowed/agreed uses (expressed by the user through the service provider) as parameters of the interface?
08:41:39 [giuseppe]
s/if/... if/
08:42:09 [rigo]
bryan, only as a hint that you could do so using RDFa, not proscribing anything
08:42:18 [giuseppe]
... so question is: is always the app that starts the intent or is the user that initiates it?
08:42:28 [bryan]
ok
08:42:30 [giuseppe]
???: yes now the spec says it needs to be user initiaited
08:42:33 [bryan]
q-
08:42:41 [shan]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:42:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html shan
08:43:11 [giuseppe]
timeless: yes we need user initiated, but is not a MUST
08:43:34 [mounir]
Present+ Mounir_Lamouri
08:43:35 [giuseppe]
... is user agent best practices, we cannot mandate what the user agent does
08:43:41 [Wonsuk]
Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
08:44:35 [mounir]
q+
08:45:04 [giuseppe]
timeless: the input field data model already have events, doesn't matter from where this content come from and should not be exposed to the web page
08:45:18 [timeless]
s/timeless/Josh_Soref/
08:45:21 [timeless]
s/timeless/Josh_Soref/
08:46:00 [giuseppe]
npdoty: I think there are 4 relevant parties, the user, the user agent, the client and the implementing service
08:46:13 [giuseppe]
... the privacy consideration section put different considerations on different parties
08:46:25 [giuseppe]
... but I'm not usse if we addres each one and if we address them in the same way
08:47:25 [timeless]
s/usse/use/
08:47:29 [timeless]
s/addres/address/
08:47:36 [timeless]
s/addres /address /
08:47:41 [timeless]
s/addresss/address/
08:47:50 [giuseppe]
fjh: we don't have requirements for clients and user agents, we only have best practices because we decided that this is implementation dependent
08:48:22 [jfmoy]
jfmoy has joined #dap
08:48:24 [christine]
q+
08:48:26 [giuseppe]
... we are not making normative requirements on privacy, that of course limit how much you can enforice if ppl decide to ignore the best practices
08:49:05 [giuseppe]
npdoty: ok so the spec probably has some bugs since some section are marked as normative and some other seems to use a normative wording
08:49:50 [giuseppe]
... I've done an investigation on sites using geolocation and I've noticed that most of them don't use the best practices given by the geolocation spec
08:50:00 [giuseppe]
... maybe because they don't read the spec
08:50:26 [giuseppe]
Josh_Soref: I want to point out that there is a difference between the contact spec and the general web intents spec
08:52:08 [fumitakaW_]
fumitakaW_ has joined #dap
08:52:43 [timeless]
Josh_Soref: there's distinction between Contacts Intent spec and Intents general spec; a UA implementing Intents can and likely will not implement any random spec, and thus wouldn't know about any MUST/SHOULDs in that Intent, and wouldn't be involved unless it was one of the direct parties (e.g. <input type=tel> as a pick/contact intent magic source for
08:52:43 [timeless]
Contacts)
08:52:46 [giuseppe]
npdoty: the last thing is a general design consideration, we have seen problems with the UI, i.e. is not always clear to the user the communication flow. in firefox OS or activities in android everything is modal so is a bit easier to understand
08:52:56 [timeless]
s/timeless/scribe/
08:52:59 [timeless]
s/timeless/scribe/
08:53:11 [timeless]
s/Contacts/... Contacts/
08:53:18 [giuseppe]
... but it may not be obvious when you have this model when you open a new tab
08:53:36 [giuseppe]
... and this get more complicated if you have multiple intents and then multiple tabs
08:53:58 [rigo]
q+ to suggest a hint for a presentation before sending, see demo again
08:54:32 [bryan]
q+ to ask why Nock thinks that such information would benefit users, and not confuse them
08:54:37 [dom]
ack fjh
08:54:43 [bryan]
s/Nock/Nick/
08:55:08 [giuseppe]
fjh: I want to add that web intents has explicit intents
08:55:09 [timeless]
s/Nick/npdoty/
08:55:22 [giuseppe]
... that means you can compose multiple services and use them all in one app
08:55:24 [npdoty]
my point is that it might help users to feel more comfortable using this sort of service if they have a clear understanding of where the data is going to go back to, which is harder when it's just several tabs
08:55:25 [timeless]
q- bryan
08:55:32 [giuseppe]
... so for the user it looks like one app
08:55:40 [timeless]
q+ bryan to ask why npdoty thinks that such information would benefit users, and not confuse them
08:55:41 [giuseppe]
... and there could be security issues there
08:55:55 [rigo]
to fjh, we have to get the borders right. Privacy is only if it goes over the border to another controller
08:55:56 [giuseppe]
... and proivacy concerns, and may be different from the normal intents
08:55:59 [dom]
ack mounir
08:56:06 [giuseppe]
... we may want to go back to that later
08:56:12 [fjh]
q+
08:56:26 [fjh]
s/proivacy/privacy/
08:56:53 [npdoty]
mounir: Sys Apps is also developing a Contacts API and we should make sure we coordinate with them
08:56:57 [giuseppe]
rich: I think is very unfortunate that we have replace the contact API with the pick intent based appraoch
08:57:04 [timeless]
s/rich:/richt:/
08:57:06 [giuseppe]
.. any chance we can bring it back?
08:57:23 [giuseppe]
dom: should be in cvs, we should be able to bring it back
08:57:35 [npdoty]
are we talking about making sure it's the same data format? or replacing one API with another?
08:57:35 [rigo]
s/proivacy/privacy/
08:57:47 [giuseppe]
richt: nothing bad with the old one, we did a lot of work
08:57:53 [fjh]
In addition to using webintents to support user mediated selection of services, webintents supports the creation of composed apps that are created from a variety of services without user interaction - we may also wish to discuss privacy considerations of this
08:57:58 [timeless]
ack christine
08:58:44 [giuseppe]
christine: is there any thinking that this pick contact intents can be used with services that are actually using other services to retrieve data
08:59:35 [fjh]
takeaways - clarify privacy sections regarding what appear to be normative statements in an informative section, clarity regarding statements about various actors
09:00:18 [giuseppe]
... my question was to follow on on what you said on explicit intents
09:00:40 [giuseppe]
fjh: but they are actually more a client/app issue rather then service issue
09:00:58 [giuseppe]
christine: how you protect the data during your transaction
09:01:20 [giuseppe]
timeless:I have an open action item to decide if to mandate ssl or not
09:01:25 [giuseppe]
.. but is difficult we can mandate it
09:01:38 [giuseppe]
.. and we always receive push back when we try to enforce
09:01:46 [jbourhis]
jbourhis has joined #dap
09:01:46 [GregBillock]
GregBillock has joined #dap
09:01:57 [giuseppe]
... we cannot useful enforce it, so the answer is no
09:02:21 [giuseppe]
... the UA promise that the delivery is done in a trusted manner
09:02:36 [giuseppe]
... between the servive page and the client page
09:02:38 [fjh]
rigo suggested rate limitation on service offering data
09:02:43 [giuseppe]
... and is impossible to validate
09:02:52 [timeless]
s/timeless:/Josh_Soref:/G
09:03:53 [giuseppe]
???: I understand that iun some cases you don't want to use https, but I can assure you that you have problem with the autoirities if you transmit data over the wire without any guarntee of protection
09:03:54 [npdoty]
it could be confusing that if I load a site over https and then I start using services and some of them aren't implemented over https, I might be upset that I thought I was accessing the web securely but really wasn't
09:04:00 [npdoty]
s/???/rigo
09:04:10 [giuseppe]
... so at least we need some recommendation on what to use in some cases
09:04:29 [giuseppe]
Josh_Soref: this probaly needs to go in a best practice
09:04:32 [fjh]
rigo asks if data can be transferred confidentiality - data protection requirement for transfer of data outside user sphere - need to provide hint or recommendation
09:04:54 [fjh]
rigo - need a should to address concern
09:05:03 [hta]
q?
09:05:23 [giuseppe]
???: no, this is a conformance issue, if you have a SHOUL then if you have a good reason for not using SSL than is ok, but if you don't have a good reason for doing it then you are not conformant and the autirity can question you conformance with the spec
09:05:58 [AnssiK]
S/SHOUL/SHOULD/
09:05:58 [giuseppe]
bryan: you cannot know what the service provider is doing with the data
09:06:04 [npdoty]
s/???/rigo
09:06:05 [giuseppe]
... the UA has no way to track data
09:06:06 [timeless]
q+ Josh_Soref to note there's a risk of conflating Intents in general and Contacts Intent
09:06:18 [GregBillock]
q+
09:06:37 [fjh]
ack rigo
09:06:37 [Zakim]
rigo, you wanted to suggest a hint for a presentation before sending, see demo again
09:06:39 [dcheng3]
q+
09:06:45 [giuseppe]
dom: on the service provider side we should say what you are expected to do if you transmit confidential data
09:06:46 [npdoty]
q+ to ask about CSP
09:06:47 [fjh]
rigo notes legal system can enforce it
09:06:51 [fjh]
q?
09:06:56 [giuseppe]
richt: you can use a should
09:07:02 [rigo]
q?
09:07:03 [AnssiK]
s/SHOUL/SHOULD/
09:07:24 [timeless]
s/SHOULDD/SHOULD/
09:07:37 [fjh]
christine - groups are sensitive information as well
09:07:53 [giuseppe]
christine: my understanding is that the server is able to remember what the user does, which information was selected on which day
09:08:15 [giuseppe]
... (we are talking only about contact intents, not intents in general)
09:08:56 [giuseppe]
... a service can only know what is given to a user, not what other services are giving to the user, right?
09:08:56 [rigo]
q+
09:09:03 [giuseppe]
several ppl: yes
09:09:07 [timeless]
Josh_Soref: unless the server is incestuous with those other providers
09:09:11 [timeless]
s/timeless/scribe/
09:09:25 [giuseppe]
fjh: do we need to document this in the spec?
09:09:51 [richt]
s/you can use a should/you can use a should and then we can forget about it because it's not technically enforceable and should requirements are generally not useful./
09:10:03 [timeless]
ack bryan
09:10:03 [Zakim]
bryan, you wanted to ask why npdoty thinks that such information would benefit users, and not confuse them
09:10:14 [richt]
s/and should requirements are generally not useful/and 'SHOULD' requirements are generally not useful/
09:10:16 [fjh]
rigo - should have statement in spec to clarify that service providers do not have visibility into other data requested (need to clarify this)
09:10:45 [lxq]
lxq has joined #DAP
09:10:58 [giuseppe]
rigo: if you write it as a normative statement into the spec everybody will have to implement it that way (about the same origin constraints)
09:11:33 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:11:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html timeless
09:11:38 [giuseppe]
bryan: yesterday we had a discussion about multiple tabs and it was clear that we need to do more work on the user exprience
09:11:59 [giuseppe]
... we cannot give too much info to the user on what's going on otherwise it could be even more confusin
09:12:12 [timeless]
s/this probaly/this probably/
09:12:22 [giuseppe]
npdoty: of course is not that more information is better, I agree.
09:12:28 [timeless]
s|S/SHOUL/SHOULD/||
09:12:38 [timeless]
ack fjh
09:13:05 [npdoty]
npdoty: just that there is a privacy implication to that usability concern, that the user doesn't know where the data is going may make them lose data or make them hesitant to use intents if they don't know where the data is going back
09:13:25 [giuseppe]
fjh: we have been straggling on how to make privacy by design but we dont have anormative way to enforce it.
09:13:38 [giuseppe]
... maybe we need a normative way to document this
09:13:40 [timeless]
ack Josh_Soref
09:13:40 [Zakim]
Josh_Soref, you wanted to note there's a risk of conflating Intents in general and Contacts Intent
09:13:56 [opoto]
opoto has joined #dap
09:14:39 [fjh]
q+ to ask about other specs
09:15:03 [npdoty]
we could help them -- pick and choose from these relevant privacy sections as are applicable to the data type that you are considering
09:15:21 [giuseppe]
rigo: personal information is the new money, so transmitting information is like transmitting money
09:15:35 [npdoty]
Josh_Soref: if we had to have the same privacy text for every one of thousands of intents specs, that's not good as surely some of them will forget
09:15:55 [giuseppe]
... so we need to be careful, so if you are working on a contact information you need to make sure to enforce a certain level of privacy enforced
09:16:19 [giuseppe]
Josh_Soref: I want to write it in the intents spec, not in each spec using intents
09:16:25 [giuseppe]
rigo: no way
09:16:51 [giuseppe]
fjh: maybe we should take this discussion offline
09:16:59 [rigo]
q?
09:17:04 [timeless]
ack giuseppe
09:17:07 [npdoty]
I think it might be overstating things to say that no one will ever bring a spec to w3c if we have a privacy discussion about it, but I agree that where we can make useful privacy considerations for all intents, that would be efficient
09:17:08 [timeless]
ack GregBillock
09:18:25 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:18:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html timeless
09:18:34 [giuseppe]
GregBillock: I think what the intents spec is missing is indication on how to guarantee privacy when you transmitts data from a service to a client
09:19:01 [Takahiro]
Takahiro has joined #dap
09:19:17 [timeless]
s/several ppl:/Several_People:/
09:19:21 [Alexandre_Morgaut]
Alexandre_Morgaut has joined #dap
09:19:34 [timeless]
s|s/priovacy/privacy/||
09:19:45 [fjh]
q?
09:19:45 [fjh]
q?
09:19:57 [timeless]
s/initiaited/initiated/
09:20:20 [timeless]
s/???:/GregBillock:/
09:20:55 [giuseppe]
fjh: I think what you are saying is that the spec is pretty generic and we cannot anticipate what is going to happen
09:21:09 [giuseppe]
... so the user agent must be the trustee in the transaction
09:23:08 [fjh]
greg notes that privacy restrictions would be an issue for debugging capability in production system to enable implementations
09:23:16 [giuseppe]
GregBillock: we cannot prohibit the UA to make available data to 3rd , because it can be useful for example to implement debuggin tools
09:23:56 [npdoty]
do we have to ask the service to honor the data minimization? I thought the user agent could actually prohibit too much data
09:24:37 [giuseppe]
rigo: these are different issues, if you collect data for debugging that is fine, as far as you discard them later
09:25:04 [giuseppe]
.. the concern is that several services can accomulate data from an individual over time
09:26:00 [npdoty]
GregBillock, can't the user agent prohibit extra fields from flowing through this Intent?
09:27:04 [timeless]
Josh_Soref: we envision pass through validation intents
09:27:09 [timeless]
s/timeless/scribe/
09:27:13 [giuseppe]
???: is not useful to put normative text that we cannot test, since it will be useless
09:27:16 [rigo]
made all my points, you have to get the terms for the actors right that participate in the contact intent scenario, give them consistent names and this will allow you to have a much clearer understanding of what's happening
09:27:18 [timeless]
q?
09:27:20 [timeless]
s/???/dcheng/
09:27:22 [rigo]
q- rigo
09:27:22 [timeless]
ack dcheng3
09:27:25 [timeless]
ack dcheng3
09:27:26 [npdoty]
ack npdoty
09:27:26 [Zakim]
npdoty, you wanted to ask about CSP
09:27:26 [timeless]
ack dcheng
09:27:31 [giuseppe]
fjh: we may still need normative text for legal reasons even if we cannot test it
09:27:38 [fjh]
q?
09:27:49 [bryan]
+1 to avoiding unverifiable requirements
09:27:52 [timeless]
Josh_Soref: we also envision Intent reputation services
09:27:55 [timeless]
s/timeless/scribe/
09:28:07 [rigo]
q+ for the demo thing
09:28:33 [giuseppe]
npdoty: do we think that the contact security policy should give sites limitation on where the data are injected
09:29:07 [giuseppe]
Josh_Soref: data comes via a callback and the user has decided to approve that transaction
09:29:31 [giuseppe]
... is a client decision if he wants to trust the service
09:29:55 [timeless]
s/the service/intent service provided data/
09:29:57 [npdoty]
Josh_Soref: to tag the data with the origin that it came from might itself be an additional privacy concern
09:30:06 [timeless]
s/npdoty/scribe/
09:30:23 [giuseppe]
fjh: there is a concern in the group that in the attempt to enforce privacy we put too many restriction or untestable requirements
09:30:47 [giuseppe]
... but there are also a regulatory requirements
09:31:03 [giuseppe]
... so we may want to discuss a bit more to find the right balance
09:31:05 [dom]
Zakim, close the queue
09:31:06 [Zakim]
ok, dom, the speaker queue is closed
09:31:32 [npdoty]
I think Josh_Soref's response is probably right here, I was just throwing the origins/CSP idea out there
09:31:54 [timeless]
s/will be useless/will be useless -as was the case in GeoLocation where we mandated an explanation of how data was going to be used, and no one did anything for it/
09:32:04 [giuseppe]
... the second issue , if you look at the dap page, we have a list of specs that may or may not raise privacy concerns
09:32:25 [giuseppe]
... maybe we can talk with the privacy groups and review with them these specs
09:32:45 [giuseppe]
... we did some work on privacy and there are documents listed from the home page
09:33:03 [giuseppe]
... we don't need to repeat that work
09:33:34 [giuseppe]
... maybe we should consider to let the Ping WG to discuss this so we don't take time from this group
09:33:35 [richt]
q?
09:33:46 [JonathanJ3]
JonathanJ3 has joined #dap
09:33:50 [giuseppe]
cristine: sounds good but we want at least few experts from this group to help
09:33:58 [dom]
ack fjh
09:33:58 [Zakim]
fjh, you wanted to ask about other specs
09:34:06 [npdoty]
fjh and Bryan volunteer to help
09:34:11 [rigo]
ack ri
09:34:11 [Zakim]
rigo, you wanted to discuss the demo thing
09:34:12 [dom]
ack rigo
09:34:37 [giuseppe]
fjh: I can help
09:34:41 [giuseppe]
bryan: I can help
09:35:02 [fjh]
I suggest we continue privacy conversation in PING by looking at some of the other DAP specs to see which issues and suggestions might apply
09:35:04 [giuseppe]
rigo: in your demo you pushed a button and got the data
09:35:21 [christine]
Excellent idea to continue these privacy discussions in PING. Thank you Frederick. We very much appreciate the work DAP has already done on privacy and your offer to continue working on this with us.
09:35:21 [giuseppe]
... the user wants to know here these data are going
09:36:15 [fjh]
I note that the WG has raised legitimate concerns about testability and ability to enforce normative privacy requirements that go beyond minimization - should discuss in PING how to suggest WGs add requirements on actors outside the implementers scope and do this in clear and usable manners.
09:36:19 [fjh]
s/manners/manner/
09:36:23 [giuseppe]
... in general is a good idea to make clear who does what, who controls what and where the information flow
09:36:31 [npdoty]
I want to ask about normative requirements and testing, but per dom I'll talk with people over coffee rather than add myself to the q
09:36:32 [fjh]
q/?
09:36:38 [fjh]
Q?
09:36:39 [giuseppe]
... so the user can understand when to pay attention
09:36:43 [fjh]
close queue
09:37:26 [giuseppe]
Josh_Soref: note that producer doesn't know who is the consumer and the consumer doesn't know who is the producer
09:37:43 [giuseppe]
... and this is to guarantee privacy
09:38:17 [npdoty]
PING has calls Thursdays once a month at 10am PT
09:38:18 [giuseppe]
fjh: let me know who is intersted in joining the PING calls
09:38:31 [giuseppe]
christine: we could have a call once a months, or more if you want
09:38:32 [timeless]
Josh_Soref: i could probably dial in
09:38:35 [timeless]
s/timeless/scribe/
09:38:54 [christine]
Everyone. Thank you for this very useful discussion.
09:39:01 [npdoty]
if it were useful, we might be able to have dedicated PING calls if a group wants a particular privacy review of a document
09:39:21 [christine]
Good idea Nick
09:39:21 [npdoty]
+1, thanks to dap for talking with us, this was great
09:39:23 [giuseppe]
fjh: now break
09:39:28 [giuseppe]
... back in 30 minutes
09:39:31 [giuseppe]
... until 11
09:39:47 [shan]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:39:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html shan
09:42:29 [shunan]
shunan has joined #dap
09:45:00 [shunan]
shunan has joined #DAP
09:50:42 [xiaoqiang]
xiaoqiang has joined #DAP
09:50:48 [kensaku_]
kensaku_ has joined #dap
09:52:29 [hao_]
hao_ has left #dap
09:53:30 [hao_]
hao_ has joined #dap
09:54:31 [kinji]
kinji has joined #dap
09:56:18 [kawakami]
kawakami has joined #dap
09:59:05 [opoto]
opoto has joined #dap
10:02:03 [nwidell]
nwidell has joined #dap
10:05:03 [Takahiro]
Takahiro has joined #dap
10:07:32 [leetv]
leetv has joined #dap
10:07:51 [Youngsun]
Youngsun has joined #dap
10:08:04 [a12u]
a12u has joined #dap
10:10:03 [leetv2]
leetv2 has joined #dap
10:10:48 [tlr]
tlr has joined #dap
10:11:30 [nsakai]
nsakai has joined #dap
10:11:53 [kenji]
kenji has joined #dap
10:12:51 [sakkuru]
sakkuru has joined #dap
10:12:57 [Hidetoshi]
Hidetoshi has joined #dap
10:14:52 [Alexandre_Morgaut]
Alexandre_Morgaut has joined #dap
10:15:11 [SungOk_You]
SungOk_You has joined #dap
10:15:26 [nwidell]
nwidell has joined #dap
10:15:45 [jfmoy]
jfmoy has joined #dap
10:17:15 [noriya_]
noriya_ has joined #DAP
10:18:13 [jbourhis]
jbourhis has joined #dap
10:18:55 [Wonsuk]
Wonsuk has joined #dap
10:19:19 [Geunhyung]
Geunhyung has joined #dap
10:19:19 [fumitakaW_]
fumitakaW_ has joined #dap
10:19:31 [Takahiro]
Takahiro has joined #dap
10:19:39 [npdoty]
npdoty has joined #dap
10:19:42 [Milan_Patel]
Milan_Patel has joined #dap
10:20:31 [timeless]
topic: WebIntents Addendum - Local Services
10:20:42 [timeless]
scribe: timeless
10:21:10 [kinji]
kinji has joined #dap
10:22:07 [timeless]
fjh: after lunch, Network Service Discovery
10:22:09 [timeless]
... then Search
10:22:11 [timeless]
... then Signage
10:22:43 [timeless]
Claes: how many of you were not at the break out session on Web Intents yesterday?
10:22:53 [timeless]
[ perhaps a dozen hands ]
10:22:58 [timeless]
Claes: i want to show this to you
10:23:04 [timeless]
... so you can see what we're doing
10:23:16 [robint]
robint has joined #dap
10:23:24 [timeless]
... the idea is to allow web apps to find a new service, situated anyway
10:23:26 [timeless]
... not just the cloud
10:23:31 [timeless]
... but also devices in the local network
10:23:43 [timeless]
... we experimented w/ extending Web Intents to find local services
10:23:53 [timeless]
[ Web Intents for local network services ]
10:24:01 [dom]
-> http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebIntents/SonyMobile_-_Local_Network_Service_Discovery WebIntents/SonyMobile - Local Network Service Discovery
10:24:02 [timeless]
[ Dynamic Service Registration 1]
10:24:16 [dom]
-> http://www.w3.org/wiki/images/2/2e/V4_W3C_Web_Intents_-_Local_UPnP_Service_Discovery.pdf Claes' slides
10:24:21 [timeless]
Claes: user presses `remote` button
10:24:34 [timeless]
[ Dynamic Service Registration 2]
10:24:50 [timeless]
[ Service Execution 1]
10:24:53 [timeless]
[ Service Execution 2]
10:25:11 [timeless]
Claes: service page implements low level communication stuff
10:25:17 [timeless]
... for communicating w/ TV/whatever
10:25:32 [timeless]
[ UPnP: SSDP Packet -> Notify ]
10:25:43 [timeless]
Claes: we added Web Intents ServiceType
10:25:43 [dom]
s/Claes' slides/slides Claes presented during the TPAC breakout/
10:25:48 [timeless]
[ UPnP: SSDP Packet -> Search ]
10:26:10 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
10:26:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html timeless
10:26:35 [timeless]
Claes: here's our experimental web page with the chromium implementation
10:26:44 [timeless]
... we select view
10:26:47 [timeless]
... here's the service picker
10:26:51 [timeless]
... we select the tv
10:26:57 [timeless]
... the service page is displayed
10:27:05 [timeless]
... we control it in the service page
10:27:10 [timeless]
... and it plays back on the TV
10:27:23 [tomoyuki_]
tomoyuki_ has joined #dap
10:27:46 [timeless]
... Another way is to receive the service page from the TV, and execute it in the background
10:27:54 [timeless]
... keeping control available to the Client
10:28:01 [timeless]
... here's an example
10:28:17 [timeless]
... i get a service page
10:28:21 [timeless]
... we used a JS shim
10:28:32 [timeless]
... now i'm able to control it from the client page
10:28:52 [timeless]
... it's doing work from the background
10:28:58 [timeless]
Josh_Soref: i like that implementation
10:29:21 [timeless]
sato: Pick image
10:29:27 [timeless]
[ Pic image ]
10:29:35 [timeless]
sato: Pick image from DSC to web service
10:29:42 [GregBillock]
GregBillock has joined #dap
10:29:44 [timeless]
[ sato reads slide ]
10:30:32 [timeless]
s/DSC/DSC (Digital Still Camera)/
10:31:11 [timeless]
[ Sony Cyber-Shot ]
10:31:22 [timeless]
[ My Memories Online ]
10:31:37 [timeless]
sato: you get a ui page from the DSC
10:31:45 [timeless]
dom: based on mDNS discovery?
10:31:51 [timeless]
sato: with some glue
10:32:18 [timeless]
fjh: how did you get to the web page w/ the camera?
10:32:25 [timeless]
sato: web intents service registration
10:32:34 [timeless]
... with Claes's impl
10:32:45 [timeless]
... local discovery protocol supports mDNS/SSDP
10:32:53 [timeless]
... the registration page returns url
10:32:59 [timeless]
... so browser knows the UI page to load
10:33:17 [timeless]
npdoty: the device is using a broadcast protocol to tell the browser
10:33:24 [timeless]
... and your camera is running a web server?
10:33:27 [timeless]
sato: yes yes
10:33:33 [timeless]
... but with a bit of fake
10:33:43 [timeless]
[ Demo ]
10:33:46 [npdoty]
thx for the clarification
10:33:49 [timeless]
kensatu:Kensatu, QQQQ
10:33:51 [dcheng3]
dcheng3 has joined #dap
10:33:54 [timeless]
s/:/: /
10:34:04 [timeless]
... demo is just for existing devices
10:34:06 [Yoshiharu]
s/QQQQ/from NTT communication
10:34:19 [timeless]
... this demonstration isn't for Addendum
10:34:39 [timeless]
... i have to leave after lunch
10:35:07 [timeless]
... demo with YouTube video and TV
10:35:17 [timeless]
[ Browser to TV demo ]
10:35:30 [timeless]
kensatu: this page is now controlling tv
10:35:35 [timeless]
... first you click service discovery
10:35:39 [timeless]
... find tv with upnp
10:36:00 [timeless]
... select devices and
10:36:07 [timeless]
... [loading...]
10:36:50 [timeless]
[ Diagram for the demo ]
10:37:08 [timeless]
kensatu: YouTube -> view activity video/mp4
10:37:25 [timeless]
... obtain server uri via explicit intent
10:37:32 [rigo]
rigo has joined #dap
10:37:48 [timeless]
.. implemented background process
10:37:54 [timeless]
s/../.../
10:37:59 [timeless]
... connected with XHR2
10:38:30 [timeless]
... the background service uses a reverse proxy w/ DLNA to talk to TV via socket APIs
10:38:34 [timeless]
... but DLNA isn't enough
10:38:49 [timeless]
... but current devices have a restriction to talk to local services
10:39:02 [timeless]
... so i needed to use a reverse proxy to connect YouTube
10:39:21 [timeless]
... but flexibility to implement this would be great for future services
10:39:28 [timeless]
... so it's important to consider a sockets api
10:39:41 [timeless]
... perhaps a sysapps api for sockets
10:39:43 [timeless]
... thanks
10:40:15 [timeless]
richt: the TV was playing the demo
10:40:25 [timeless]
[ There's a TV in the center of the room
10:40:37 [timeless]
s/room/room ]/
10:40:56 [timeless]
[ the screen projecting the computer is at the far end of the room ]
10:41:10 [timeless]
[ some people foolishly had eyes only on the projected computer screen and speaker ]
10:41:12 [fjh]
q?
10:41:28 [timeless]
[ and missed the TV showing the demo showing YouTube content ]
10:41:45 [timeless]
fjh: wanted to understand what you were saying w/ sysapps
10:42:00 [timeless]
richt: he was saying that this was something we'd look at there as well
10:42:07 [timeless]
... extra requirements for a reverse proxy
10:42:11 [timeless]
... not sure about here/just sysapps
10:42:16 [timeless]
... but sysapps will work on that
10:42:48 [timeless]
kensatu: current implementation uses (needs?) a socket api
10:42:55 [gmandyam]
q+
10:42:58 [timeless]
... sysapps wg will be discussing a raw socket api
10:43:26 [timeless]
fjh: isn't there an api in webapps?
10:43:31 [timeless]
dom: that's WebSockets
10:43:43 [timeless]
richt: chrome has a Raw sockets api for chrome extensions
10:43:58 [Claes]
Claes has joined #dap
10:44:14 [timeless]
fjh: raw sockets in sysapps, websockets in webapps, intents in dap
10:44:40 [bryan]
timeless: their TV needed to get the data, but only speaks HTTP
10:45:05 [timeless]
s/bryan/scribe/
10:45:07 [bryan]
... so they needed a proxy to answer the HTTP GET and provide the data back from youtube
10:45:16 [timeless]
s/timeless:/Josh_Soref:/
10:45:18 [timeless]
s/bryan/scribe/
10:45:26 [timeless]
dom: so they built a web server in their browser?
10:45:29 [timeless]
Josh_Soref: yes
10:45:46 [timeless]
Claes: our demo shows how we can use WebIntents, but it requires WebIntents enabled devices
10:45:54 [timeless]
... even though those changes are quite minor
10:46:10 [timeless]
... [their demo allows for no changes to existing deployed DLNA TVs]
10:46:18 [timeless]
... there could be many choices if you use web intents
10:46:27 [timeless]
... you could use cloud service, or device on local network
10:46:29 [timeless]
... or whatever
10:46:37 [timeless]
... that's why we based our solution on web intents
10:46:46 [timeless]
... flexible choice about how to execute the service
10:46:53 [fjh]
open queue
10:46:55 [dom]
Zakim, reopen the queue
10:46:55 [Zakim]
ok, dom, the speaker queue is open
10:46:58 [fjh]
q+
10:46:59 [timeless]
... trying to hear WG's oppion
10:47:05 [dom]
q+ gmandyam
10:47:07 [timeless]
richt: i like this mechanism
10:47:13 [timeless]
... it's a bootstrap into web intents
10:47:23 [timeless]
... right now you have <intent> and discover by browsing
10:47:32 [timeless]
... this is another way to add other service providers
10:47:36 [sato]
sato has joined #dap
10:47:38 [timeless]
... it sits in this web intents model
10:47:52 [timeless]
... i can connect to this thing, but this device needs to speak web intents
10:48:03 [nwidell]
q+ to request clarification on whether decision on "long-life intents" impacts on these proposals
10:48:07 [timeless]
... one thing w/ web intents, especially w/ Share
10:48:14 [fjh]
q?
10:48:14 [timeless]
... is you have to open service page to share the video
10:48:26 [timeless]
... the web developer loses control over the direction of their UX
10:48:30 [Claes]
q+
10:48:32 [timeless]
... they hand off control
10:48:38 [timeless]
... we [Opera] do differently
10:48:41 [GregBillock]
q+
10:48:42 [timeless]
... is background with XHR
10:49:00 [timeless]
... but your bootstrap and control change is because it's WebIntents
10:49:04 [timeless]
... it isn't necessarily bad
10:49:07 [sakkuru_]
sakkuru_ has joined #dap
10:49:12 [timeless]
... but it isn't UPnP/mDNS as we know it too
10:49:18 [timeless]
Claes: yes, with a visible page from the tv
10:49:29 [timeless]
... the web developer has less control over the tv
10:49:34 [timeless]
... but that may be an advantage
10:49:39 [timeless]
... the tv may have more options for the user
10:49:46 [timeless]
... the other alternative is a hidden service page
10:49:49 [timeless]
... which is our proposal
10:49:52 [sakkuru]
sakkuru has joined #dap
10:49:56 [timeless]
... which would leave control to the web developer
10:50:05 [timeless]
q?
10:50:15 [timeless]
ack fjh
10:50:23 [timeless]
fjh: what are we trying to do in this session?
10:50:32 [timeless]
... seems like we decided we'll have more than one way to do
10:50:39 [timeless]
richt: no need to have competition
10:50:45 [timeless]
... don't want to debate one way or another
10:50:53 [marcin_hanclik]
marcin_hanclik has joined #dap
10:50:53 [timeless]
fjh: if we've learned things, we want to share
10:51:00 [timeless]
... if we have nothing to learn, we should end early
10:51:12 [timeless]
... what are you looking for?
10:51:15 [marcin_hanclik]
q+
10:51:17 [timeless]
Claes: i'd like feedback on the basic ideas
10:51:21 [timeless]
q+ Josh_Soref
10:51:30 [timeless]
Claes: looking for feedback on the spec
10:51:34 [timeless]
ack gmandyam
10:51:45 [richt]
s/don't want to debate one way or another/don't want to debate one way or another. They address the use cases in different ways and can both be valid./
10:52:01 [bryan]
q+
10:52:09 [timeless]
gmandyam: presumably there would be a socket spec
10:52:17 [timeless]
... we don't think there's a need
10:52:41 [timeless]
... it shouldn't be assumed there'd be a need for a new sockets api
10:52:53 [timeless]
fjh: you're saying sysapps may not provide a sockets api
10:53:14 [fjh]
q?
10:53:15 [timeless]
gmandyam: we may not need Web Intents in sysapps
10:53:24 [timeless]
richt: raw sockets is building anything on top of TCP/UDP
10:53:32 [timeless]
dom: outside of scope for this group
10:53:40 [timeless]
ack nwidell
10:53:40 [Zakim]
nwidell, you wanted to request clarification on whether decision on "long-life intents" impacts on these proposals
10:53:41 [fjh]
q?
10:53:48 [timeless]
nwidell: what's the impact of removing long lived intents
10:53:51 [timeless]
... will this still work?
10:53:56 [timeless]
Claes: in the second UC
10:54:00 [timeless]
... w/ the hidden service page
10:54:09 [timeless]
... control buttons in client starting page
10:54:17 [timeless]
... we have long lived connection between client and service
10:54:24 [timeless]
... we use Channel Messaging to send commands
10:54:46 [timeless]
... we use simple commands like "Play" "Pause"
10:54:58 [fjh]
q?
10:55:00 [timeless]
... GregBillock, you said you weren't aware of an application using it
10:55:06 [timeless]
... we were using it for our demo
10:55:07 [fjh]
ack Claes
10:55:21 [timeless]
[ After invoke the service - hidden page will be provided by Service. ]
10:55:34 [timeless]
Claes: left is Browser w/ controls using channel messaging
10:55:41 [timeless]
... hidden page which talks to the tv
10:55:52 [bryan]
overall, I think the UX will benefit from keeping control in the app page (and not a service page, just for a remote control function)
10:56:00 [timeless]
dom: does the new direction of web intents with a restriction on single shot exchanges problematic?
10:56:26 [timeless]
Claes: for having a UC where UI stays in client page, we need longer lasting relation with service page
10:56:33 [timeless]
... that's why we propose hidden
10:56:43 [timeless]
ack GregBillock
10:56:54 [timeless]
GregBillock: i wanted to talk about a couple of things
10:57:06 [timeless]
... FIFO/LIFO...
10:57:06 [bryan]
if the use case is a remote control, and you need for example an indication of the video timeline, single shot exchanges will not work
10:57:08 [timeless]
[ laughter ]
10:57:20 [timeless]
GregBillock: relationship to network discovery mentioned by richt/Claes
10:57:31 [timeless]
... similar to relationship between getUserMedia and Media Capture
10:57:38 [timeless]
... in getUserMedia, client retains control
10:57:51 [timeless]
... in Media Capture, the client says "get back to me when you're done"
10:58:00 [richt]
good analogy from GregBillock
10:58:00 [timeless]
... i think the same division of UCs is present here
10:58:12 [timeless]
... second part to talk about
10:58:24 [timeless]
... long lived connections are right now because we pass structured clones through web intents
10:58:29 [timeless]
... the spec specifically supports transferables
10:58:42 [timeless]
... we mentioned UI issues for coordinating long lasting connections between tabs
10:58:48 [timeless]
... more difficult to address in UX of browser
10:58:56 [timeless]
... Web Intents spec may need to change
10:59:03 [timeless]
... to address these communications
10:59:17 [timeless]
... there's a legitimate reason to not allow that because we don't know how to do it in the UI
10:59:24 [timeless]
... this is a good example where it comes into play
10:59:35 [timeless]
... not exactly sure what the outcome will be of that thinking
10:59:40 [timeless]
... a profitable direction to explore
10:59:52 [timeless]
... is to think about casting Web Intent style interactions as Navigation style interactions
11:00:04 [timeless]
... window.open() which use url endpoints
11:00:29 [timeless]
... if you do long lived interaction, maybe you do url discovery and set that up w/ webMessaging
11:00:50 [timeless]
... we could build the kinds of UCs out of the ingredients that already exist
11:00:54 [timeless]
... not a concrete proposal
11:01:02 [timeless]
... it's a potential solution to problems we're facing
11:01:17 [timeless]
... leaves Request/Response stuff that we initially envisioned
11:01:36 [timeless]
... and fits nicely w/ this concept of delegation
11:01:55 [timeless]
... the generic UIs fit in request/response
11:02:04 [timeless]
... and don't lend themselves to long lived
11:02:08 [timeless]
... it's not a concrete proposal
11:02:10 [timeless]
q?
11:02:19 [timeless]
fjh: action?
11:02:24 [timeless]
GregBillock: we spoke about this yesterday
11:02:29 [timeless]
... we'll hash this out
11:02:34 [timeless]
... what we'll do w/ web intents
11:02:39 [timeless]
... talk w/ web activities
11:02:50 [timeless]
... trying to address these in a way that's more concrete
11:03:06 [timeless]
... perhaps let's not exchange structured clones
11:03:28 [fjh]
q?
11:03:35 [timeless]
Claes: we don't know where we'll end up w/ Web Intents
11:03:42 [timeless]
... but you understand the need for long lived connections
11:04:10 [npdoty]
naively, it does seem like removing long-lived connections makes it easier to harmonize acitivities/intents proposals and to address the usability issues we've come across
11:04:36 [timeless]
... but you don't think we'll have structured clones in web intents?
11:04:46 [timeless]
Josh_Soref: i think structured clones may drop from intents
11:04:54 [fjh]
ack marcin_hanclik
11:04:54 [timeless]
... but you may get a url from web intnts
11:05:03 [timeless]
... and be able to use web messaging w/ that url
11:05:15 [timeless]
marcin_hanclik: we have a spec called CHTML
11:05:18 [Yoshiharu]
s/intnts/intents/
11:05:29 [timeless]
... one of the most important aspects to discuss
11:05:33 [timeless]
.... is the security
11:05:34 [jcdufourd]
s/CHTML/CE-HTML/
11:06:15 [richt]
marcin_hanclik, we're not allowing the web site to browse the whole network. There will be user opt-in at a per service level in both current proposals.
11:06:30 [richt]
...just to clarify that.
11:06:52 [richt]
the UA will do the discover and broker the service provision to web pages.
11:07:57 [timeless]
bryan: i think it's better to keep UI in app rather than in service page if possible
11:08:02 [timeless]
... apps use a lot of external data + helpers
11:08:03 [timeless]
... using XHR, websockets, SSE
11:08:27 [Wonsuk]
Wonsuk has joined #dap
11:08:29 [timeless]
... apps like background bits
11:08:29 [timeless]
... i don't know users will like/understand modality
11:08:52 [dom]
ack J
11:08:59 [dom]
ack bryan
11:09:08 [fjh]
ack Josh_soref
11:09:32 [npdoty]
yay lunch!
11:09:44 [Wonsuk]
Wonsuk has left #dap
11:09:49 [shan]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
11:09:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html shan
11:10:11 [kenji]
kenji has left #dap
11:11:23 [Geunhyung]
Geunhyung has left #dap
11:14:28 [npdoty]
npdoty has joined #dap
11:16:56 [kawakami]
kawakami has joined #dap
11:18:39 [a1zu]
a1zu has joined #dap
11:20:28 [kawakami_]
kawakami_ has joined #dap
12:14:20 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dap
12:14:20 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-irc
12:14:37 [amy]
great
12:14:42 [timeless]
s/great//
12:14:44 [amy]
please ping me if you need anything else
12:14:50 [Yoshiharu]
Yoshiharu has joined #dap
12:14:50 [timeless]
s/please ping me if you need anything else//
12:14:54 [timeless]
RRSAgent, darft minutes
12:14:54 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'darft minutes', timeless. Try /msg RRSAgent help
12:14:58 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:14:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html timeless
12:14:59 [amy]
amy has left #dap
12:15:18 [shan]
shan has joined #dap
12:15:28 [SungOk_You]
Present+ SungOk_You
12:15:32 [nwidell]
nwidell has joined #dap
12:15:55 [timeless]
s|s/please ping me if you need anything else//||
12:16:05 [robint]
robint has joined #dap
12:16:18 [tomoyuki]
tomoyuki has joined #dap
12:16:22 [timeless]
topic: Network Service Discovery
12:16:42 [youenn]
youenn has joined #dap
12:16:55 [sato]
sato has joined #dap
12:17:17 [opoto]
opoto has joined #dap
12:17:35 [richt]
Latest published draft: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-discovery-api-20121004/
12:17:36 [fjh]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/wiki/F2F_Agenda_1-2_November_TPAC_Lyon_France
12:17:48 [Milan_Patel]
Milan_Patel has joined #dap
12:17:50 [nkic]
nkic has joined #dap
12:17:50 [richt]
s/published draft:/published draft ->/
12:17:54 [richt]
Network Service Discovery (NSD) API in Opera -> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/network-service-discovery-api-support-in-opera/
12:18:04 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
12:18:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html fjh
12:18:17 [fjh]
Chair: Frederick_Hirsch
12:18:18 [Ryosuke]
Ryosuke has joined #dap
12:18:26 [fjh]
Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
12:18:29 [dnkim]
dnkim has joined #dap
12:18:35 [Claes]
Claes has joined #dap
12:18:35 [noriya]
noriya has joined #DAP
12:18:44 [hiroki]
hiroki has joined #dap
12:18:52 [timeless]
s/Latest published draft //
12:18:57 [Yoshihiro]
Yoshihiro has joined #dap
12:18:58 [fjh]
s/Chair: fjh/Chair: Frederick_Hirsch/
12:19:07 [nsakai]
nsakai has joined #dap
12:19:07 [timeless]
s|04/|04/ Latest published draft|
12:19:12 [Shinji]
Shinji has joined #dap
12:19:15 [timeless]
richt: the UA does the discovery
12:19:21 [timeless]
... using common available protocols from the network
12:19:25 [timeless]
... UPnP and ZeroConf
12:19:30 [ryosuke]
ryosuke has joined #dap
12:19:35 [timeless]
... ZeroConf is DNS SDP
12:19:46 [timeless]
... this draft abstracts away the underlying discovery protocol
12:19:53 [timeless]
s/Network Service Discovery (NSD) API in Opera //
12:20:00 [a12u]
a12u has joined #dap
12:20:01 [timeless]
s|a/|a/ Network Service Discovery (NSD) API in Opera|
12:20:18 [timeless]
... the way the communication works it's URL based
12:20:25 [timeless]
... we've taken that as the underlying principle of this
12:20:33 [timeless]
... we're sharing URLs to be able to control services on the network
12:20:43 [timeless]
... when we have a URL, we can reuse the entire toolchain in browsers
12:20:49 [timeless]
... we can send messages w/ XHR
12:20:50 [Hidetoshi]
Hidetoshi has joined #dap
12:20:53 [timeless]
... you could use WebSockets
12:20:59 [timeless]
... you could do webMessaging
12:21:05 [timeless]
... it's a flexible thing
12:21:09 [timeless]
... we get a lot for free w/ URLs
12:21:19 [timeless]
... a lot of things we get for free are semantics
12:21:23 [timeless]
... we can hook into Status codes
12:21:35 [timeless]
... we want services using this to be able to hook into it with that level
12:21:41 [timeless]
... the url we get can be used in many different ways
12:21:51 [timeless]
... the spec today only allows XHR
12:22:01 [timeless]
... we need XHR because UPnP requires HTTP headers
12:22:06 [timeless]
... there's a special SOAP header
12:22:10 [timeless]
... don't blame me, not my design
12:22:17 [timeless]
... we need that ability, which is why we use XHR
12:22:40 [timeless]
... UPnP is sending messages w/ HTTP, it could work 10 times and fail on the 11th
12:22:51 [timeless]
... HTTP lets us catch that failed 11th w/ a timeout
12:22:57 [timeless]
... it's prescriptive about what's allowed
12:23:02 [timeless]
... it's not restrictive on what's allowed
12:23:09 [timeless]
... it allows exposing a control point URL
12:23:14 [timeless]
... you're aware of how you can use it
12:23:21 [timeless]
... based on the service type that exposed it
12:23:27 [timeless]
... one could be a WebSocket based service
12:23:32 [timeless]
... i setup a websocket service
12:23:39 [timeless]
... you could do UPnP over ZeroConf
12:23:48 [timeless]
... there's AirPlay, iTunes advertise over ZeroConf
12:24:01 [timeless]
... choose your messaging format, JSON, KeyValue pairs, whatever
12:24:05 [timeless]
... based on the URL system
12:24:10 [timeless]
... we can push URLs wherever
12:24:19 [timeless]
... there's a mechanism to whitelist the URLs
12:24:21 [gmandyam]
q+
12:24:26 [timeless]
q+ Josh_Soref to ask about lifetime for URLs
12:24:35 [timeless]
... there's only one API
12:24:39 [timeless]
... called getNetworkServices
12:25:06 [youenn]
q+
12:25:08 [timeless]
... that's the entire API, it's one method
12:25:16 [timeless]
... it's important to minimize the impact on the DOM
12:25:34 [timeless]
... you get back a DOM object
12:25:39 [timeless]
... with lots of things
12:25:45 [timeless]
... between calling this and getting a response
12:25:51 [timeless]
... it goes through the UA/UI
12:25:56 [fjh]
q?
12:26:00 [timeless]
... the UA makes the user opt in
12:26:03 [timeless]
... before anything returns
12:26:04 [GregBillock]
q+
12:26:08 [timeless]
ack gmandyam
12:26:12 [fjh]
ack gmandyam
12:26:14 [timeless]
GregBillock: going beyond mDNS and UPnP
12:26:21 [timeless]
... we were thinking of other network service discovery
12:26:27 [timeless]
... could reuse this spec
12:26:34 [timeless]
... i didn't see rules for URL construction
12:26:41 [timeless]
... you have examples for UPnP/ZeroConf
12:26:51 [youenn]
q-
12:26:52 [timeless]
... is there's a schema for others?
12:26:55 [timeless]
richt: it's extensible
12:27:02 [timeless]
... UPnP / ZeroConf aren't hard coded in
12:27:10 [timeless]
... you could have your own discovery protocols
12:27:15 [Geunhyung]
Geunhyung has joined #dap
12:27:17 [yamaday]
yamaday has joined #dap
12:27:17 [timeless]
... commonality is you get back a network service object
12:27:20 [sato]
Present+ Naoyuki_Sato
12:27:29 [jcdufourd]
q+
12:27:29 [timeless]
... how messaging works, you're requesting a specific service type
12:27:30 [kensaku]
kensaku has joined #dap
12:27:43 [timeless]
gmandyam: but how does a UA know which SDP is being used?
12:28:08 [timeless]
richt: if you want to communicate from a web page to a resource, you must use an HTTP url
12:28:13 [timeless]
... anything else will not work
12:28:17 [timeless]
... XHR won't work
12:28:24 [timeless]
... UDP resources wouldn't work
12:28:36 [timeless]
... there's a lose binding between what you're requesting and the messaging
12:28:42 [timeless]
... there's no rules beyond that
12:28:46 [timeless]
... either HTTP or not
12:28:53 [timeless]
gmandyam: Caching discovery results?
12:28:58 [timeless]
... do you have rules on freshness?
12:29:02 [timeless]
... or is that up to UAs?
12:29:08 [timeless]
... spec talks about not Caching
12:29:21 [fjh]
q+
12:29:24 [timeless]
... we've had feedback about allowing preferences for services user has previously selected
12:29:29 [timeless]
... we hope to add that
12:29:33 [timeless]
... similar to GeoLoc
12:29:50 [timeless]
s/... spec/richt: spec/
12:29:59 [timeless]
gmandyam: for cellular, control point could be chatty
12:30:14 [timeless]
... some companies clearly violate specs in enumerating remote directories
12:30:20 [timeless]
richt: there's a lot of stuff out of scope
12:30:26 [timeless]
... this is a bootstrap
12:30:30 [timeless]
... we prototyped this
12:30:34 [timeless]
... we implemented it
12:30:42 [timeless]
... we published a version of Opera with this
12:30:50 [fjh]
q?
12:31:22 [timeless]
richt: you have to switch it on in prefs, there's no ui
12:31:31 [timeless]
... a few restrictions
12:31:35 [timeless]
... only UPnP
12:31:38 [timeless]
... two No UI
12:31:46 [timeless]
... on via opera:config
12:32:03 [timeless]
... UPnP was the delivery for our TV team
12:32:10 [timeless]
... i see this as more for ZeroConf
12:32:17 [youenn]
q+
12:32:20 [timeless]
... "btw, you can use UPnP on the side"
12:32:31 [timeless]
... both get abstracted to the same object
12:32:39 [timeless]
... ZeroConf is interesting because it's lightweight
12:32:42 [kawada]
kawada has joined #dap
12:32:46 [timeless]
... ZeroConf you can have JSON
12:32:53 [timeless]
... I can show a live demo
12:32:58 [timeless]
topic: Opera Demo
12:33:08 [timeless]
richt: i've got a media server and xmbc on my mac
12:33:37 [timeless]
... before, kensaku did a demo
12:33:44 [timeless]
... now i'm browsing that media server
12:33:50 [timeless]
... that should work
12:33:55 [timeless]
... maybe not
12:34:05 [kenji]
kenji has joined #dap
12:34:16 [timeless]
gmandyam: there are implementations that query all the way down that directory tree
12:34:23 [timeless]
... even though the user didn't select thaat
12:34:25 [Kiyoshi]
Kiyoshi has joined #dap
12:34:25 [timeless]
s/thaat/
12:34:32 [timeless]
s/select/select that/
12:34:51 [timeless]
... now the demo is playing
12:35:03 [timeless]
... i can control it in the app
12:35:08 [timeless]
... this is similar to getUserMedia
12:35:13 [timeless]
... you're responsible for more
12:35:19 [timeless]
... you have more control
12:35:28 [timeless]
... Intents is more the Media Capture
12:35:55 [timeless]
fjh: is this demo on your site?
12:36:20 [timeless]
[ richt plays music silently ]
12:36:27 [naomi]
naomi has joined #dap
12:36:30 [richt]
Network Service Discovery (NSD) API in Opera -> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/network-service-discovery-api-support-in-opera/
12:36:35 [giuseppe]
giuseppe has joined #dap
12:36:45 [timeless]
richt: there are some restrictions here, it isn't perfect
12:36:55 [giuseppe]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:36:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html giuseppe
12:36:56 [timeless]
... we're investigating how much we can do w/ this model
12:37:03 [timeless]
... the api itself may change
12:37:10 [timeless]
... we have lots of feedback online, offline
12:37:11 [timeless]
q?
12:37:19 [timeless]
... we may change how the api's look/respond
12:37:26 [timeless]
... we're trying to keep the underlying principles
12:37:33 [timeless]
... this is a proposal in that direction
12:37:37 [timeless]
topic: Questions
12:37:39 [timeless]
ack Josh_Soref
12:37:39 [Zakim]
Josh_Soref, you wanted to ask about lifetime for URLs
12:38:39 [timeless]
Josh_Soref: a problem HTML/MC/WebRTC/DAP had for URLs
12:38:43 [timeless]
... was lifetime
12:38:53 [timeless]
... ensuring the underlying resource could be GCd
12:39:03 [timeless]
richt: URLs have ways to say they expired
12:39:07 [timeless]
... we can do a 404
12:39:08 [fjh]
q?
12:39:15 [sunghan]
sunghan has joined #dap
12:39:27 [timeless]
... at the point they're provided, they're live
12:40:04 [timeless]
Josh_Soref: i'm more worried about recycling of urls
12:40:09 [timeless]
richt: each message is separate
12:40:22 [timeless]
... you aren't creating a dialog across multiple request/responses
12:40:30 [timeless]
... i'm doing an action
12:40:35 [timeless]
... if the resource changes/moves
12:40:39 [timeless]
... and i hit a different resource
12:40:44 [timeless]
... i'm performing an action on the new one
12:40:55 [timeless]
... there's no concept of a session in this UPnP stuff
12:41:01 [jfmoy]
jfmoy has joined #dap
12:41:08 [ryosuke]
ryosuke has joined #dap
12:41:23 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #dap
12:41:47 [timeless]
[ Concept of delete ]
12:42:02 [timeless]
richt: these services are meant to be interactive, but not with write support/delete
12:42:10 [timeless]
... they might have update and create new things
12:42:17 [timeless]
... you can't do that at the basic network level
12:42:25 [timeless]
ack GregBillock
12:42:33 [timeless]
GregBillock: cool richt
12:42:37 [Wonsuk]
Wonsuk has joined #dap
12:42:40 [timeless]
... i like using URLs as the interaction primitives
12:42:46 [timeless]
... couple of q's looking through the spec
12:43:00 [timeless]
... all relate to permission models
12:43:07 [timeless]
... when user is connecting up client to services
12:43:12 [timeless]
... how long lived is ...
12:43:16 [timeless]
... what are the semantics
12:43:21 [timeless]
... few ways this could work
12:43:27 [timeless]
... one is that when i get a network service
12:43:37 [timeless]
... i get permission to interact anything satisfying that query
12:43:44 [timeless]
... or only one for that selected one
12:43:52 [timeless]
... or i get back a geolocation style permission
12:44:00 [timeless]
... what's the permissions model?
12:44:06 [timeless]
richt: beyond what we want to do in W3C spec
12:44:10 [timeless]
... we don't want to restrict UI
12:44:19 [timeless]
... there's a clear approach we have in mind
12:44:22 [timeless]
... I request service type
12:44:29 [timeless]
... UA searches "network"
12:44:36 [timeless]
... finds devices with that service type
12:44:42 [timeless]
... user is presented w/ that list
12:44:47 [timeless]
... we don't authorize a service
12:44:52 [timeless]
... we authorize to a device
12:44:59 [timeless]
... "Google set top"
12:45:02 [timeless]
... "PS3"
12:45:13 [timeless]
... what page gets back is a specific binding for a service on a device
12:45:26 [timeless]
... if i request
12:45:37 [timeless]
... i can request a media renderer and an AV transport controller
12:45:46 [timeless]
... (the api allows 2 requests at a time)
12:45:48 [fjh]
q?
12:46:01 [timeless]
... the user can select the PS3 which fulfills both
12:46:06 [shinichi]
shinichi has joined #dap
12:46:19 [timeless]
... spec requires user opt in
12:46:32 [timeless]
GregBillock: does permission persist across page sessions?
12:46:35 [timeless]
richt: right now, no
12:46:45 [timeless]
GregBillock: so, right now i want to control PS3 now
12:46:50 [timeless]
.. and next time maybe something else?
12:47:00 [timeless]
richt: there might be a remember my preference option
12:47:09 [timeless]
... we'd auto-fulfill the request the next time
12:47:32 [timeless]
... we know if the service is online, offline
12:47:42 [timeless]
... you could get back 3 offline objects
12:47:52 [timeless]
... if there are devices still available
12:48:10 [timeless]
GregBillock: there's an overlap with the kind of service connection for web intents
12:48:19 [timeless]
... the selection process is the same hook me up together with my stuff
12:48:25 [timeless]
... my apps, tv tuner, router, whatever
12:48:28 [timeless]
... we may want to
12:48:35 [timeless]
... pick a division of labor between
12:48:39 [hta]
hta has joined #dap
12:48:43 [timeless]
... who's responsible for maintaining state of connections
12:48:46 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
12:48:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.781.362.aaaa, Salon_Pasteur
12:48:47 [Zakim]
On IRC I see hta, shinichi, Wonsuk, kotakagi, jfmoy, sunghan, giuseppe, naomi, Kiyoshi, kenji, kawada, yamaday, Geunhyung, Hidetoshi, a12u, Shinji, nsakai, Yoshihiro, hiroki,
12:48:47 [Zakim]
... noriya, Claes, dnkim, nkic, Milan_Patel, opoto, sato, youenn, tomoyuki
12:48:57 [fjh]
zakim, aaaa is cathy
12:48:57 [Zakim]
+cathy; got it
12:48:58 [timeless]
... "where does the scan for wifi connection appear"
12:49:11 [timeless]
... network services have updates
12:49:18 [timeless]
... but if you want other services
12:49:28 [timeless]
... they'd hit "show more networks"
12:49:40 [timeless]
... in the client page?
12:49:53 [timeless]
... is it a long lived permission across loads
12:49:56 [timeless]
... or per task
12:50:09 [trackbot]
trackbot has joined #dap
12:50:13 [timeless]
... unlike geoloc permission
12:50:22 [timeless]
richt: it's about specific devices
12:50:29 [timeless]
... there's no normative restrictions on how you do this
12:50:33 [timeless]
... it's a UA design choice
12:50:45 [timeless]
... remembering services only
12:50:50 [timeless]
... it's a design choice
12:50:57 [timeless]
GregBillock: if the model is a persistent connection
12:51:07 [timeless]
... it might make sense to expose network services object directly to page
12:51:32 [timeless]
... the way it's written, it might not need that
12:51:35 [timeless]
q?
12:51:37 [timeless]
ack jcdufourd
12:51:40 [timeless]
jcdufourd: 4 questions
12:51:48 [timeless]
... you have top in navigator
12:51:50 [fjh]
q?
12:51:51 [timeless]
... is object live?
12:51:57 [timeless]
... what about successive calls?
12:52:05 [timeless]
... our indexes kept/do they change?
12:52:10 [timeless]
... offline about exposing services?
12:52:19 [timeless]
richt: object is immutable
12:52:24 [timeless]
... once given, it doesn't change
12:52:29 [timeless]
... helps for more requests
12:52:34 [timeless]
... new requests give new objects
12:53:00 [timeless]
jcdufourd: successive network services objects
12:53:04 [timeless]
... if i have 3 objects
12:53:07 [timeless]
... and a fourth appears
12:53:14 [timeless]
... are the index id's the same or not?
12:53:19 [timeless]
richt: each object has an id
12:53:33 [timeless]
... it's unique enough to identify it within the session
12:53:42 [timeless]
richt: network services is an array like object
12:53:57 [timeless]
jcdufourd: why in navigator?
12:54:10 [timeless]
richt: don't care about where it goes
12:54:18 [timeless]
... parallel to getUserMedia
12:54:23 [timeless]
... similar signature
12:54:33 [timeless]
... same structure
12:54:37 [timeless]
... we didn't put it on window!
12:54:43 [timeless]
... but it's arbitrary, really
12:54:50 [tpacbot]
tpacbot has joined #dap
12:54:53 [adrianba]
adrianba has joined #dap
12:54:53 [timeless]
... this seems like a logical fit
12:54:59 [timeless]
fjh: we did this discussion before
12:55:04 [timeless]
richt: to death, think we have a note on it
12:55:36 [timeless]
richt: exposing services
12:55:44 [timeless]
... not getting too far ahead of ourselves
12:55:54 [timeless]
... we want to allow web pages to advertise itself on the network
12:55:58 [timeless]
... don't know if we'll do it
12:56:15 [timeless]
... navigator.registerNetworkService
12:56:26 [timeless]
... give it an identifier, receive incoming requests
12:56:33 [timeless]
... push requests
12:56:40 [timeless]
... it'll be ZeroConf only
12:56:52 [timeless]
... if you want to do UPnP service, there's a significant startup cost
12:57:09 [timeless]
... entire structure in an xml file
12:57:20 [timeless]
... we'll do DNS SD only
12:57:27 [timeless]
... reuse HTTP/urls
12:57:32 [timeless]
... we have a loopback address
12:57:39 [timeless]
... if you only want to advertise to your address
12:57:43 [timeless]
... i could use that
12:57:48 [timeless]
... i could use my network ip
12:57:54 [timeless]
... we've got public ip address as well
12:58:37 [timeless]
... not just about web pages
12:58:47 [timeless]
... i could advertise it to native apps too
12:58:48 [timeless]
q?
12:58:50 [timeless]
ack fjh
12:58:56 [timeless]
Zakim, close the queue
12:58:56 [Zakim]
ok, timeless, the speaker queue is closed
12:58:58 [GregBillock]
q+
12:59:16 [timeless]
jcdufourd: disagree about can't be done w/ UPnP
12:59:19 [timeless]
... but i'll work on that
12:59:24 [timeless]
Zakim, open the queue
12:59:24 [Zakim]
ok, timeless, the speaker queue is open
12:59:34 [GregBillock]
GregBillock has joined #dap
12:59:48 [timeless]
q+ GregBillock
12:59:53 [timeless]
Zakim, close the queue
12:59:54 [jfmoy]
jfmoy has joined #dap
12:59:54 [Zakim]
ok, timeless, the speaker queue is closed
12:59:59 [npdoty]
npdoty has joined #dap
13:00:06 [timeless]
fjh: what about confidentiality?
13:00:22 [timeless]
richt: i haven't seen UPnP services doing https
13:00:26 [timeless]
... but we can argue it's a url
13:00:30 [timeless]
ack youenn
13:00:31 [shoko_]
shoko_ has joined #dap
13:00:40 [timeless]
youenn: we're very interested in this api
13:00:47 [timeless]
... first question
13:00:59 [timeless]
... seems very tied to local network
13:01:04 [timeless]
... is it related to local network
13:01:09 [timeless]
... or is it related to privacy?
13:01:17 [timeless]
... is it to avoid home-work network crossing?
13:01:27 [timeless]
richt: we have a Cross-Origin Resource Sharing
13:01:36 [timeless]
... if that service opts in w/ HTTP headers
13:01:47 [timeless]
... if a server allows it, we'll let sites do it
13:01:53 [timeless]
... this spec allows Reverse CORS
13:01:57 [timeless]
... user opts a site in
13:02:07 [timeless]
... spec goes in to how we whitelist the url
13:02:12 [timeless]
... for that user opted in service
13:02:18 [timeless]
... and subresources
13:02:33 [timeless]
richt: it's part of the proposal
13:02:42 [timeless]
youenn: if you get an error, it can point to anything
13:02:57 [timeless]
... in the spec, if you don't do upnp/zeroconf, you can get an error
13:03:09 [timeless]
richt: anything to be done will be done by UA
13:03:11 [timeless]
q?
13:03:20 [timeless]
richt: it's all local network
13:03:27 [timeless]
... using loopback is local device
13:03:33 [timeless]
... DNS SD does wide area discovery
13:03:47 [timeless]
... my browser can look at dns when i go to google
13:03:50 [timeless]
... or mozilla
13:03:56 [timeless]
... and say there are services there too
13:04:11 [timeless]
... it's part of what we're saying
13:04:23 [timeless]
youenn: we did experiments
13:04:30 [timeless]
... enabling web as services
13:04:33 [timeless]
... it's very useful
13:04:38 [timeless]
... please continue this work
13:04:47 [timeless]
richt: please play w/ it, please give feedback
13:04:53 [timeless]
... don't think this is all it is
13:04:53 [GregBillock]
I was going to ask, will you regret the name "NetworkServices" do you think? With the last couple questions?
13:04:57 [timeless]
.... UPnP is a sideeffect
13:05:07 [timeless]
s/GregBillock/scribe/
13:05:17 [timeless]
s/I was/GregBillock: I was/
13:05:23 [timeless]
Topic: Web Based Signage
13:05:41 [shan]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:05:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html shan
13:05:53 [timeless]
hatano: Futomi Hatano, Newphoria Corporation
13:05:56 [timeless]
... we're new to W3C
13:06:06 [timeless]
... could the signage guys please join me
13:06:11 [timeless]
present+ Futomi_Hatano
13:06:21 [timeless]
... i'd like to describe our requirements
13:06:29 [timeless]
... we're discussing Requirements for Web Based Signage
13:06:33 [a12u]
Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu
13:06:34 [darobin]
darobin has joined #dap
13:06:34 [timeless]
... we collected many requirements
13:06:36 [timeless]
... one relates to this WG
13:06:42 [timeless]
... i'd like to describe our requirements
13:06:49 [timeless]
[ Requirement R5 ]
13:06:51 [Shinji]
Present+ Shinji_Ishii
13:06:57 [moystard]
moystard has joined #dap
13:07:05 [shoko_]
shoko_ has joined #dap
13:07:10 [fjh]
http://www.w3.org/community/websignage/
13:07:19 [timeless]
[ UC 1 ]
13:07:30 [timeless]
hatano: view same document shown on signage terminal at office
13:07:41 [fumitakaW_]
fumitakaW_ has joined #dap
13:08:00 [timeless]
... small display, big room
13:08:15 [dom]
-> http://www.w3.org/community/websignage/wiki/Web-based_Signage_Use_cases_and_Requirements#R5._Discovered_by_personal_devices Web-Based Signage use cases and requirements, R.5 service discovery
13:08:19 [timeless]
... colleagues find displays in the room
13:08:27 [timeless]
... which can then display the app
13:08:28 [richt]
s/UPnP is a sideeffect/UPnP is only one aspect of this API. I believe that Zeroconf is a much more flexible discovery protocol and will spur a lot of innovation. but, btw, you can also do UPnP./
13:08:30 [timeless]
[ UC 2 ]
13:08:58 [timeless]
hatano: viewer can't reach the displays showing display
13:09:01 [Shinji]
Thanks! dom
13:09:03 [fjh]
q+
13:09:07 [timeless]
... viewer pulls out phone
13:09:17 [timeless]
... phone finds Signs nearby
13:09:19 [fjh]
open queue
13:09:23 [fjh]
q+
13:09:31 [timeless]
... lets viewer see what's displayed on Sign
13:09:37 [timeless]
[ Motivation ]
13:09:44 [timeless]
Zakim, open the queue
13:09:44 [Zakim]
ok, timeless, the speaker queue is open
13:09:45 [adrianba]
zakim, open queue
13:09:45 [Zakim]
ok, adrianba, the speaker queue is open
13:09:47 [timeless]
q+ fjh
13:09:53 [timeless]
q- GregBillock
13:10:02 [fjh]
s/open queue//
13:10:19 [Travis]
Travis has joined #dap
13:10:19 [timeless]
[ Gap analysis ]
13:10:23 [shige]
shige has joined #dap
13:10:37 [timeless]
hatano: we found Web Intents and Network Service Discovery
13:10:44 [timeless]
... we'd like to know if they satisfy our requirements
13:10:47 [Shinji]
q?
13:11:10 [timeless]
richt: um
13:11:17 [gmandyam]
q+
13:11:17 [timeless]
... i was talking about wide area service discovery
13:11:27 [timeless]
q+ to talk about captive networks and routing problems
13:11:30 [sangwhan]
sangwhan has joined #dap
13:11:31 [timeless]
q- timeless
13:11:37 [timeless]
q+ Josh_Soref to talk about captive networks and routing problems
13:11:50 [timeless]
fjh: could you discover these signs with a web application?
13:11:56 [bryan]
it will be difficult on a typical WAN to access signs that are inside a CDN service domain
13:12:24 [timeless]
bryan: typically there's a firewall
13:12:34 [timeless]
richt: isn't this kensaku's demo?
13:12:44 [timeless]
bryan: typically there's a service provider network
13:12:48 [timeless]
dom: that's the case currently
13:12:53 [timeless]
... but if there's a value to exposing them
13:13:00 [Travis]
Travis has left #dap
13:13:00 [GregBillock]
q+
13:13:02 [timeless]
bryan: so it's more than exposing devices
13:13:15 [timeless]
dom: i'm in this mall
13:13:25 [timeless]
... using WiFi network that's being provided for free
13:13:31 [richt]
GregBillock, we may come to regret the naming 'NetworkServices'. Didn't want to use 'Services' though so...
13:13:32 [timeless]
... i'm in a position to discover nearby screens
13:13:36 [timeless]
... i see things nearby
13:13:42 [Hidetoshi]
Hidetoshi has joined #dap
13:13:43 [timeless]
... i can discover screen
13:13:51 [timeless]
... get information related to what the screen shows
13:13:52 [kinji]
kinji has joined #dap
13:13:56 [Travis]
Travis has joined #dap
13:13:58 [Takahiro]
Takahiro has joined #dap
13:14:09 [timeless]
shiyo: yes
13:14:12 [timeless]
bryan: i think it is
13:14:20 [Yoshiharu]
s/shiyo/shigeo/
13:14:23 [timeless]
... if you're at a meeting room of a conference on a lan
13:14:30 [timeless]
dom: some of this is beyond scope
13:14:34 [timeless]
... network topology
13:14:49 [timeless]
... but we can assume some topologies where you want to discover devies
13:14:54 [timeless]
s/devies/devices/
13:15:17 [timeless]
... an interesting exercise would be to see how much of the UCs offered can be enabled by the apis
13:15:25 [timeless]
richt: a service that allows me to discover it
13:15:31 [timeless]
... maybe there's a queue
13:15:36 [timeless]
... or a way to give auth to project
13:15:46 [timeless]
... enable users in room to connect to service
13:15:50 [timeless]
... i think this is absolutely in scope
13:15:58 [timeless]
... this requires server side innovation
13:16:02 [timeless]
q?
13:16:09 [timeless]
ack fjh
13:16:13 [timeless]
fjh: maybe for some portion of it
13:16:30 [timeless]
... in some cases, this may work straightforwardly
13:16:36 [timeless]
... in some cases external changes may be needed
13:16:48 [timeless]
... in some cases w/ Local network, it might just work w/o much effort
13:16:56 [timeless]
... in some cases, there may be some constraints
13:17:31 [timeless]
hatano: thank you for your time
13:17:32 [timeless]
q=
13:17:39 [timeless]
queue=
13:17:58 [timeless]
[ Signage guys leave ]
13:19:40 [jbourhis]
jbourhis has joined #dap
13:20:51 [a1zu]
a1zu has joined #dap
13:22:31 [kenji]
kenji has left #dap
13:23:34 [hiroki]
hiroki has joined #dap
13:23:35 [tokamoto]
tokamoto has joined #dap
13:25:07 [kawada]
kawada has joined #dap
13:26:14 [kawada]
kawada has left #dap
13:26:18 [nwidell]
nwidell has joined #dap
13:26:23 [timeless]
agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/wiki/F2F_Agenda_1-2_November_TPAC_Lyon_France
13:26:25 [kinji]
kinji has joined #dap
13:26:28 [timeless]
timeless has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/wiki/F2F_Agenda_1-2_November_TPAC_Lyon_France
13:26:35 [timeless]
topic: Agenda Review
13:26:41 [timeless]
fjh: Pick Contact
13:26:44 [timeless]
... Pick Media
13:26:46 [timeless]
... Break
13:26:49 [timeless]
... CoreMob update
13:27:20 [timeless]
... Media Capture / Streams
13:27:32 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:27:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html timeless
13:27:49 [moystard]
moystard has joined #dap
13:27:51 [timeless]
... Calendar
13:27:58 [timeless]
... Issues + Action Review
13:28:44 [timeless]
... Sensors
13:28:50 [timeless]
s/CoreMob/Testing + CoreMob/
13:29:16 [timeless]
hta: I have an item
13:29:21 [timeless]
... i'm leaving @ 3:15pm
13:29:32 [sangwhan]
sangwhan has joined #dap
13:29:38 [sangwhan1]
sangwhan1 has joined #dap
13:30:02 [timeless]
topic: Media Capture / Streams
13:30:12 [timeless]
fjh: great work, thanks
13:31:40 [timeless]
[ Update from Media Capture Task Force ]
13:31:42 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #dap
13:31:49 [timeless]
Travis: Travis Leithead
13:31:51 [timeless]
... just a brief update
13:31:59 [timeless]
... i'll send a link to the slides to the DAP ML later
13:32:09 [timeless]
... not going to talk about HTML MC
13:32:14 [timeless]
... not going to talk about WebRTC document
13:32:22 [timeless]
... (sorry about the blue text)
13:32:30 [Claes]
Claes has joined #dap
13:32:32 [timeless]
... MC TF is looking at 4 documents since last year's TPAC
13:32:38 [timeless]
... 1. Media Stream Captures Scenarios
13:32:58 [timeless]
... 2. getUserMedia "Media Capture and Streams"
13:33:11 [timeless]
... 3. Track Enhancements and snap photos
13:33:15 [timeless]
... 4. XXQ
13:33:23 [timeless]
Topic: MediaStream Capture Scenarios
13:33:30 [timeless]
Travis: it describes 6 scenarios
13:33:35 [timeless]
... photo + audio capture
13:33:40 [timeless]
... video + audio together
13:33:43 [timeless]
... streamed
13:34:01 [timeless]
... retrieve modify camera capabilities / switch cameras
13:34:06 [timeless]
... pause resume capture
13:34:09 [timeless]
... peer to peer streaming
13:34:21 [timeless]
... - Issues
13:34:28 [timeless]
... we'll remove "design considerations"
13:34:40 [timeless]
... by converting them into Requirements/enhancing Scenarios
13:34:42 [Shinji]
Shinji has joined #dap
13:34:47 [timeless]
... many things in there are addressed by TF
13:34:56 [timeless]
Topic: Media Capture and Streams (getUserMedia)
13:35:11 [timeless]
Travis: we now have a complex first parameter (constraints)
13:35:22 [timeless]
... getUserMedia(constraints, successCallback, failureCallback)
13:35:29 [timeless]
... constraints have ordered optional constaints
13:35:35 [timeless]
... and mandatory constraints
13:35:46 [timeless]
... UA will evaluate constraints and decide what you could be given
13:35:56 [timeless]
... MediaStream object is defined in spec
13:36:04 [timeless]
... used for RealTime Streaming and Local capture
13:36:08 [timeless]
... separate audio/video tracks
13:36:11 [timeless]
... concept of generic track
13:36:16 [timeless]
... - Issues
13:36:20 [timeless]
... slightly underspecified
13:36:47 [timeless]
... directly assigned to video elements or view URL.createObjectURL()
13:36:52 [richt]
s/DNS SDP/DNS-SD/
13:36:53 [timeless]
... -- lifetime issues
13:37:08 [timeless]
Topic: Settings API (proposal)
13:37:30 [timeless]
Travis: puts control at Track level
13:37:34 [timeless]
... instead of stream
13:37:43 [timeless]
... we split tracks into distinct kinds
13:37:49 [timeless]
... video, audio, camera, microphone
13:38:05 [timeless]
... settings/capabilities live on tracks
13:38:10 [timeless]
... drops Local Media Stream
13:38:16 [timeless]
... defines Take Picture API
13:38:20 [timeless]
... provides a device list
13:38:28 [timeless]
... - Issues
13:38:38 [fjh]
q+
13:38:40 [timeless]
... Applying settings via an interesting api path
13:38:51 [timeless]
... may want to move closer to constraints model
13:39:00 [timeless]
... Privacy/Fingerprinting implications of device list
13:39:10 [timeless]
... making it into reality is tricky
13:39:22 [timeless]
Topic: Recording API (proposal)
13:39:33 [JonathanJ1]
JonathanJ1 has joined #DAP
13:39:48 [timeless]
... g
13:39:53 [timeless]
s/g/get data at end/
13:39:56 [timeless]
... get data incrementally
13:39:59 [timeless]
... - Issues
13:40:05 [timeless]
... track level v. Stream
13:40:10 [timeless]
... Audio/Video together?
13:40:14 [timeless]
... Group would like them together
13:40:27 [timeless]
... complications involving MediaStreams and recording
13:40:30 [timeless]
... state machine
13:40:35 [timeless]
... adding/removing tracks to/from a Stream
13:40:44 [JonathanJ1]
JonathanJ1 has joined #DAP
13:40:47 [timeless]
... or dynamic setting changes (resolution)
13:40:53 [timeless]
... Container format constraints
13:41:18 [bjkim]
bjkim has joined #dap
13:41:23 [timeless]
fjh: refactoring Tracks looks good
13:41:29 [timeless]
... for Privacy/Fingerprinting discussion
13:41:34 [timeless]
... should we involve PING?
13:41:44 [timeless]
... if someone from TF could join a PING call
13:41:51 [timeless]
... it might help resolve it
13:41:52 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #dap
13:41:56 [timeless]
Travis: +1
13:42:09 [timeless]
... someone from TF should set that up
13:42:10 [richt]
s/how does a UA know which SDP/how does a UA know which control protocol/
13:42:14 [Kiyoshi]
Kiyoshi has joined #dap
13:42:17 [timeless]
hta: chairs will take it under advisement
13:42:25 [timeless]
... we attended XXE
13:42:35 [timeless]
... some people say if you can run JS, it's game over
13:42:41 [timeless]
... not everyone has given up yet
13:42:58 [timeless]
fjh: PING is the privacy people
13:43:04 [fjh]
q?
13:43:06 [fjh]
ack fjh
13:43:14 [timeless]
Travis: talking to them, seeking their advice may not be entirely wasted
13:43:20 [timeless]
q?
13:43:28 [timeless]
fjh: anything DAP needs to do?
13:43:29 [dom]
[I think the risk with listing devices is not only a fingerprinting issue http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-capture/2012Oct/0047.html ]
13:43:47 [timeless]
Travis: i think we're ok
13:43:51 [shepazu]
shepazu has joined #dap
13:44:18 [timeless]
fjh: join Media Cap TF/ML
13:44:26 [timeless]
dom: at session on Wednesday
13:44:30 [timeless]
... there was a discussion
13:44:39 [giuseppe]
giuseppe has joined #dap
13:44:45 [timeless]
Travis: very interesting discussions
13:44:52 [timeless]
... my presentation didn't capture the latest thinking
13:45:07 [dom]
s/Wednesday/Tuesday afternoon
13:45:15 [timeless]
hta: we found cases where we couldn't wait for response from users
13:45:25 [dom]
s/a discussion/a discussion that might lead to fairly important changes to getUserMedia
13:46:46 [timeless]
topic: Pick Contacts
13:46:54 [timeless]
fjh: did the CfC for removing search
13:46:56 [naomi]
naomi has joined #dap
13:47:01 [timeless]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Keep search
13:47:30 [timeless]
Jungkee: i think we reached a consensus
13:47:47 [Jungkee]
contact search option: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/contacts/Overview.html#idl-def-ContactIntentExtras
13:48:00 [Jungkee]
media search option: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/gallery/Overview.html#idl-def-MediaIntentExtras
13:48:05 [fjh]
q?
13:48:06 [dom]
q?
13:48:07 [timeless]
Josh_Soref: i want to change the property to be searchHint
13:48:13 [nwidell]
q+
13:48:38 [timeless]
nwidell: we moved extras from Intents
13:48:44 [timeless]
... where's the replacement?
13:48:56 [timeless]
Jungkee: i think we add the attributes in the Intent
13:49:04 [tomoyuki_]
tomoyuki_ has joined #dap
13:49:29 [timeless]
GregBillock: you put it in the Intent object
13:49:45 [fjh]
q?
13:49:47 [giuseppe]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:49:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html giuseppe
13:49:47 [fjh]
ack nwidell
13:50:12 [timeless]
... but extras disappeared
13:50:29 [timeless]
GregBillock: i'd put the metadata in the type itself
13:50:37 [fjh]
q?
13:50:57 [timeless]
s/type/data schema/
13:51:28 [GregBillock]
GregBillock has joined #dap
13:52:14 [dom]
-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/web-intents/raw-file/tip/spec/Overview.html#widl-Intent-data data field in Intent object
13:52:20 [GregBillock]
So new Intent({ action: x, type: y, data: { query_info: { fields: ["displayName", ...], query: "query_hint" } } })
13:53:04 [MyNickName]
MyNickName has joined #dap
13:53:37 [GregBillock]
so that means dictionary Contact { ... ContactIntentExtras? query_hints }
13:54:50 [Jungkee]
new Intent({ action: "http://intents.w3.org/pick", type: "http://intents.w3.org/type/contact", data: { fields: ["displayName", "emails"] }});
13:55:05 [GregBillock]
LGTM
13:55:29 [timeless]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: field and searchhint move to data
13:55:39 [fjh]
propose RESOLUTION: retain search in Pick Contacts using a dictionary in the data for this information
13:56:04 [timeless]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Pick Contacts using dictionary in for searchhint and field restrictions
13:56:12 [nwidell]
q+
13:56:18 [timeless]
ack nwidell
13:56:41 [noriya]
noriya has joined #DAp
13:56:52 [timeless]
nwidell: search or filter?
13:56:57 [timeless]
Jungkee: two capabilities
13:57:07 [timeless]
... 1. who they're looking for (roughly)
13:57:14 [timeless]
... 2. what they want to know about that entity
13:57:30 [dom]
+1 to proposed resolution
13:57:33 [timeless]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Pick Contacts and Pick Media using dictionary in for searchhint and field restrictions
13:57:43 [timeless]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Pick Contacts and Pick Media using dictionary for searchhint and field restrictions
13:57:58 [timeless]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Pick Contacts and Pick Media using dictionary for searchhint and field restrictions (field on media if applicable)
13:58:08 [timeless]
RESOLUTION: Pick Contacts and Pick Media using dictionary for searchhint and field restrictions (field on media if applicable)
13:58:16 [timeless]
[ Break ]
13:58:48 [Travis_]
Travis_ has joined #dap
13:59:17 [shan]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:59:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html shan
13:59:42 [Zakim]
-cathy
14:00:10 [nsakai]
nsakai has left #dap
14:03:26 [tomoyuki_]
tomoyuki_ has joined #dap
14:07:47 [nwidell]
nwidell has joined #dap
14:09:02 [shepazu]
shepazu has joined #dap
14:12:23 [Takahiro]
Takahiro has joined #dap
14:13:35 [Geunhyung]
Geunhyung has joined #dap
14:19:39 [Travis_]
Travis_ has joined #dap
14:19:48 [nwidell]
nwidell has joined #dap
14:24:10 [Wonsuk]
Wonsuk has joined #dap
14:25:53 [Hidetoshi]
Hidetoshi has joined #dap
14:26:31 [jfmoy]
jfmoy has joined #dap
14:35:30 [tomoyuki_]
tomoyuki_ has joined #dap
14:35:52 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
14:35:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html fjh
14:37:22 [Yoshihiro]
Yoshihiro has joined #dap
14:37:26 [fjh]
Topic: HTML Media Capture
14:37:30 [fjh]
I checked with the W3C team - we can publish a LC even during an exclusion period, no problem.
14:38:22 [hiroki]
hiroki has left #dap
14:38:51 [fjh]
Topic: Pick Media Intent
14:39:35 [Jungkee]
metadata: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/gallery/Overview.html#metadata-properties
14:39:49 [bjkim]
bjkim has joined #dap
14:39:49 [bryan]
scribenick: bryan
14:40:05 [fjh]
q+
14:40:08 [fjh]
q=
14:40:11 [fjh]
q-
14:40:17 [bryan]
Jungkee: would like to get feedback on the list on this link, after the F2F
14:40:28 [fjh]
q+ to ask if this metatdata has been defined as standard elsewhere as to meaning
14:41:17 [bryan]
... want to explain the criteria
14:41:32 [bryan]
... considered a number of platforms and services
14:41:42 [Zakim]
+cathy
14:41:54 [bryan]
... group review on the metadata definition, with feedback is requested
14:41:54 [gmandyam]
q+
14:42:06 [fjh]
ack fjh
14:42:07 [Zakim]
fjh, you wanted to ask if this metatdata has been defined as standard elsewhere as to meaning
14:42:30 [bryan]
fjh: see you have picked the core from the metadata of different specs
14:43:15 [bryan]
Jungkee: refer to a core set of media ontology specs
14:43:38 [bryan]
... media ontology core has 29 properties, most included here
14:43:49 [bryan]
... som core properties are not used in real life
14:44:01 [Zakim]
-cathy
14:44:01 [bryan]
... those have been excluded
14:44:02 [Jungkee]
http://www.w3.org/TR/mediaont-10/#core-property-lists
14:44:23 [Zakim]
+cathy
14:44:35 [fjh]
q?
14:44:51 [fjh]
ack gmandyam
14:45:08 [bryan]
Gmandyam: why did you not go with an approach like Tizen media content?
14:45:30 [bryan]
Jungkee: in Tizen 2.0 we dropped a lot of the media metadata functionality
14:45:47 [bryan]
... we just need some practical properties used in real life
14:46:24 [robint]
robint has joined #dap
14:46:28 [bryan]
Gmandyam: it would be desirable for sysapps to reference an actual spec (they are looking to the Tizen media spec)
14:46:33 [Takahiro_]
Takahiro_ has joined #dap
14:46:57 [bryan]
... would like to bring this to SysApps for possible use in the gallery API to be done there
14:47:23 [bryan]
... Google has an exploratory API, Mozilla has one also
14:47:27 [fjh]
q?
14:47:32 [tomoyuki]
tomoyuki has joined #dap
14:49:46 [nwidell]
q+
14:49:52 [fjh]
ack nwidell
14:50:41 [bryan]
bryan: is there a similar prevalent metadata spec for media as Vcard is for contacts?
14:51:00 [bryan]
richt: the mozilla version has a slightly different list
14:51:41 [bryan]
... we should avoid a long process since we will never get it right anyway
14:51:55 [bryan]
Jungkee: we will try to align the data as much as possible
14:52:15 [bryan]
richt: another approach is just to define a container, and not define the details
14:52:16 [nsakai]
nsakai has joined #dap
14:52:31 [bryan]
bryan: do you need a format attribute
14:53:04 [bryan]
richt: no, it would be a JSON object
14:53:25 [bryan]
... developers want to have agreement and to do it themselves
14:54:25 [bryan]
nwidell: given this will be behind web intents, should be ensure the attributes are consistent with what is typically used in other intents?
14:54:51 [bryan]
Jungkee: that's where I need feedback. I tried to abstract some of the properties
14:55:44 [bryan]
... it will be a more practical approach e.g. in section 5.x in which you can extend the dictionary with a prefix
14:56:20 [bryan]
... in the demo it gets a practical (actually used) data as examples
14:56:52 [bryan]
topic: interop & testing
14:57:09 [bryan]
dom: there are some discussions on structure of the repository
14:57:46 [bryan]
... that is being revised in the testing IG, and changes in how tests are approved may result
14:58:07 [richt]
s/developers want to have agreement and to do it themselves/developers want to have agreement and to do it themselves. It's in their interest to agree on a structure but this DAP group has previously rejected this approach./
14:58:37 [bryan]
... these are W3C-wide discussions, but what matters is implementing, writing, and reviewing tests
14:58:37 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #dap
14:58:51 [bryan]
... key is focusing on getting to CR
14:59:06 [bryan]
topic: CoreMob update
14:59:47 [bryan]
Gmandyam: (introduces CoreMob)
15:00:07 [bryan]
... F2F in London in Oct, with a few results
15:00:23 [bryan]
... http://rng.io
15:00:23 [Wonsuk]
Wonsuk has left #dap
15:00:35 [bryan]
... is the URI for Ringmark
15:01:10 [bryan]
... initially looking at converting Ringmark into conformance specs, the group is revisiting that with use cases and reqs
15:01:47 [fjh]
q+
15:01:54 [bryan]
... no draft of that yet, hopefully use cases that are complementary will result
15:02:19 [bryan]
... other things of interest, the group is going back to FB's original research
15:02:32 [bryan]
... a pretty good set of data
15:03:02 [bryan]
... we will not be targeting performance for the 1st release, CoreMob 2012
15:03:24 [bryan]
fjh: why go back to use cases and requirements?
15:03:45 [Kiyoshi]
Kiyoshi has joined #dap
15:03:57 [bryan]
Gmandyam: it was a mistake, using Ringmark as the basis, as they had to justify the Ring 0 vs Ring 1 etc
15:04:11 [fjh]
ack fjh
15:04:14 [fjh]
q?
15:04:23 [bryan]
... Ringmark is useful but we needed more care in the criteria
15:04:42 [timeless]
s/Gmandyam:/gmandyam:/
15:05:16 [bryan]
Josh_Soref: they went back as the UC & Reqs weren't developed, and there was no explanation of where they had arrived
15:05:37 [bryan]
... this was a big lesson, to document the problem being addressed
15:05:58 [bryan]
... Ring 0 vs 1 was a side topic
15:06:35 [bryan]
... FB contributed the research, but we focused on the Ringmark tests instead, and that side-trcked us from the useful things
15:06:56 [bryan]
... so the initial input (their analysis) got buried
15:07:22 [bryan]
... and the chain of relevance was not defined
15:07:39 [bryan]
... organization issues also got in the way
15:08:07 [bryan]
fjh: what's the plan with DAP, will they be included some time? who makes that happen?
15:08:28 [timeless]
s/trcked/tracked/
15:09:05 [bryan]
dom: DAP does not have to worry or do it. DAP may need to answer queries as to the APIs that have been defined per CoreMob priorities
15:09:13 [smaug]
smaug has joined #dap
15:09:42 [bryan]
Josh_Soref: e.g. it was found there were no real-world use cases for the battery API
15:10:17 [bryan]
... the original idea was to build upon the lower rings but the specs are not dependent in the way that supports that
15:10:48 [bryan]
... probably will address the use cases individually
15:11:05 [bryan]
bryan: the HTML Media Capture was listed as a key API
15:11:23 [shepazu]
shepazu has joined #dap
15:11:31 [timeless]
bryan: one UC was capturing of images and file upload
15:11:34 [timeless]
s/timeless/scribe/
15:11:44 [timeless]
bryan: that was the one API listed by coremob
15:11:45 [timeless]
s/timeless/scribe/
15:12:13 [bryan]
topic: sensors
15:12:47 [timeless]
?Q
15:12:50 [timeless]
s/?Q//
15:12:51 [timeless]
q?
15:12:59 [timeless]
Zakim, open the queue
15:12:59 [Zakim]
ok, timeless, the speaker queue is open
15:13:21 [timeless]
q+ Josh_Soref
15:13:33 [bryan]
nwidell: 1 year ago we discussed sensor APIs and there was a decision to move ahead with Web Intents based sensors, until the DOM based sensor proposals came from Mozilla
15:13:59 [virginie_]
virginie_ has joined #dap
15:14:07 [bryan]
... are we interested in local network sensors? the Web Intents approach did not seem to work out
15:14:23 [bryan]
... the other case was doing everything yourself
15:14:52 [Claes]
q+
15:14:53 [bryan]
fjh: not sure what us being asked for
15:15:20 [bryan]
nwidell: a generic sensor API is in the charter, and there are a lot of use cases for sensors not on the device
15:15:23 [timeless]
q+ Josh_Soref to talk about sensors in Cars
15:15:29 [Zakim]
-cathy
15:15:39 [fjh]
q?
15:15:43 [dom]
Zakim, who's on the call?
15:15:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Salon_Pasteur
15:15:43 [bryan]
... these might be discoverable via some networking; also use cases for sensors in the car
15:15:46 [gmandyam]
q+
15:16:06 [timeless]
q+ richt
15:16:11 [bryan]
... on the browser side, this would have to be a generic API
15:16:25 [Zakim]
-Salon_Pasteur
15:16:26 [Zakim]
Team_(admin)12:11Z has ended
15:16:26 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.781.362.aaaa, Salon_Pasteur, cathy
15:16:50 [bryan]
richt: the 1st step is use cases, then we agree, but network service discovery could be useful for the networked sensors use cases
15:18:02 [bryan]
... there are a lot of use cases for networked sensors
15:18:05 [fjh]
+1 to documenting use cases to understand the approach
15:18:10 [bryan]
... e.g. (showing use cases)
15:18:55 [bryan]
... fitness, devices without integrated sensors (as users of externa sensors), home sensors
15:19:17 [bryan]
... we can't connect all the dots, but we can provide a framework for the client side
15:19:38 [bryan]
... since the Web is maturing as a platform, providing these adapters is a good thing
15:19:47 [richt]
q?
15:20:08 [fjh]
q?
15:20:14 [bryan]
... 1st though is whether there is a priority in anything beyond device-local sensors
15:20:18 [dom]
q+ Claes, gmandyam, richt
15:20:26 [timeless]
q+ Josh_Soref to talk about sensors in Cars
15:20:38 [timeless]
ack Josh_Soref
15:20:38 [Zakim]
Josh_Soref, you wanted to talk about sensors in Cars
15:21:21 [bryan]
Josh_Soref: W3C is wrapping up a car-focused activity; we are also having people talking about running apps anywhere
15:21:45 [bryan]
... the phone might be in the glove box or a dock, displaying on the car screen
15:21:48 [fjh]
josh_soref: also about displaying anyway, like signage
15:22:36 [bryan]
... if the phone is in the glove box and it's dark, the phone can't use its own sensor, and the car may need to provide the sensor for this case
15:23:10 [bryan]
... it would be nice for the phone to be able to use the car screen, and the car's light sensor
15:23:29 [bryan]
... I see a need for this, and considering how Intents mght enable this
15:24:12 [bryan]
... re the roadmap for the car stuff, it may be a bit longer as the lifecycle and time to market is longer
15:24:24 [dom]
q?
15:24:42 [dom]
ack Claes
15:24:43 [timeless]
s/wrapping/ramping/
15:24:52 [bryan]
Claes: I wanted to say the same things
15:25:21 [dom]
ack gmandyam
15:25:21 [bryan]
... I think we shoud start on this
15:25:53 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:25:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html fjh
15:26:04 [bryan]
Gmandyam: it's good to take a step back, consider alternatives, e.g. HTTP to COAP mapping. what's nice is no change in the browser
15:26:35 [bryan]
... it would be good to take a step back and explain why other industry efforts are insufficent
15:26:46 [bryan]
richt: a number of issues need to be discussed first
15:27:08 [bryan]
... discovery, configuration, interaction (an interface available)?
15:27:28 [bryan]
... without this, it is purely theoretical
15:27:31 [timeless]
s/COAP/CoAP/
15:27:49 [bryan]
... the UPnP specs provide nothing, some lighting and HVAC
15:28:01 [timeless]
-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constrained_Application_Protocol CoAP
15:28:06 [timeless]
s/timeless/gmandyam/
15:28:17 [bryan]
... is the remote sensors industry ready for this? there is a lot of underlying work needed first
15:29:10 [dom]
q+
15:29:14 [dom]
ack r
15:29:19 [bryan]
nwidell: this is a rapid developer market, mapping to technolgies may not be clear, but it would be good to have this on the agrenda
15:29:22 [timeless]
-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_to_machine M2M
15:29:26 [timeless]
s/timeless/nwidell/
15:29:38 [Hidetoshi]
Hidetoshi has joined #dap
15:29:56 [bryan]
richt: there is a lot to be done outside the Web, and that isn't happening
15:30:02 [adrianba]
adrianba has left #dap
15:30:03 [bryan]
nwidell: it is happening
15:30:33 [bryan]
dom: it's clear that its coming and we should be ready, but that it's preliminary
15:30:34 [npdoty]
npdoty has joined #dap
15:30:46 [timeless]
s/its coming/it's coming/
15:31:26 [richt]
s/there is a lot to be done outside the Web, and that isn't happening/there is a lot to be done outside the Web, and that is not ubiquitous today./
15:31:33 [bryan]
... the big picture of the need for standards needs to clearer
15:32:00 [bryan]
nwidell: we sure dont want one web solution per underlying technology
15:32:20 [fjh]
dom it is too early for specification work, but worthwhile to understand ecosystem and environmnet
15:32:41 [bryan]
Josh_Soref: re monitors, they are using Bluetooth or USB, probably serial protocols
15:33:12 [bryan]
... I assert that there is an app running on those systems that implements the proprietary protocol
15:33:34 [bryan]
... a local service may be running which is exposable via intents
15:33:57 [bryan]
richt: that seems somewhat hacky; someone needs to do the normalization work
15:34:14 [bryan]
... a lot of work needed outside the Web and W3C first
15:35:33 [bryan]
dom: my view is that this will soon be fundamental and I hope the Web can be part of that space
15:35:56 [bryan]
dom: I would suggest a landscape document
15:36:19 [fjh]
+1
15:36:22 [richt]
whatever you invent, make it discoverable.
15:36:25 [timeless]
s/dont/don't/
15:38:43 [bryan]
bryan: i gave a presentation recently at OMA re this, an the result was that these are very interesting (for mHealth) but we probably need some time for the basic market to develop
15:39:32 [bryan]
dom: the landscape document would help establish what is out there, what is compatible with the Web platform, etc
15:39:38 [richt]
you need to want to be part of the web. Requiring proprietary middleware to talk to proprietary sensors over USB is not an indication you (*) want to be a part of the web right now.
15:39:43 [richt]
* = sensors.
15:39:45 [fjh]
nwidell: discovery, registration, communication problems need to be solved first
15:40:07 [bryan]
... this space is big/diverse/fast
15:40:11 [fjh]
q?
15:40:16 [dom]
ack me
15:40:17 [fjh]
ack dom
15:41:48 [bryan]
nwidell: happy to take an action, but if we don't intend to do anything it may be a waste of effort
15:42:08 [fjh]
action: nwidell to provide draft sensors landscape document
15:42:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-592 - Provide draft sensors landscape document [on Niklas Widell - due 2012-11-09].
15:42:19 [bryan]
dom: if we don't get the information needed, we surely won't be doing anything
15:43:17 [bryan]
http://www.openmobilealliance.org/comms/documents/bangkok_presentations/OMA%20Healthcare%20Workshop%20-%20A%20Web%20of%20mHealth%20Devices.pptx.pdf
15:43:51 [bryan]
topic: calendar API
15:44:16 [Cathy]
Cathy has joined #dap
15:44:30 [bryan]
fjh: we don't seem to be able to move this forward, due to the extended discussions around contacts
15:45:16 [bryan]
bryan: I agree we should get one good intent out the door as a model first
15:45:42 [bjkim]
bjkim has joined #dap
15:46:43 [bryan]
fjh: the calendar recurrence model still seems an issue, we had other problems, etc that have not been addressed in the earlier versions
15:47:17 [tokamoto]
tokamoto has joined #dap
15:47:34 [bryan]
dom: we can consider the next F2F
15:47:48 [bryan]
fjh: we were in Mass last time
15:49:19 [bryan]
dom: we can't make a decision now, but early April or March might be OK, will consider via an action
15:49:53 [dom]
ACTION: dom to build a survey for finding a week for DAP meeting March/April
15:49:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-593 - Build a survey for finding a week for DAP meeting March/April [on Dominique Hazaƫl-Massieux - due 2012-11-09].
15:50:47 [fjh]
Topic: Actions
15:50:49 [fjh]
action-588: I checked with the W3C team - we can publish a LC even during an exclusion period
15:50:50 [trackbot]
ACTION-588 Review exclusion period for Ambient light notes added
15:51:01 [fjh]
close ACTION-588
15:51:01 [trackbot]
ACTION-588 Review exclusion period for Ambient light closed
15:51:27 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:51:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html dom
15:51:36 [fjh]
Topic: Other Business
15:52:30 [fjh]
thank you everyone for a productive F2F. Thanks to the scribes, Josh, Bryan, Rich, Giusseppe
15:52:39 [tokamoto]
tokamoto has joined #dap
15:52:39 [fjh]
rrs, generate minutes
15:52:55 [fjh]
s|rrs, generate minutes||
15:53:06 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:53:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html fjh
15:56:11 [Cathy]
Cathy has left #dap
15:58:45 [Yoshihiro]
Yoshihiro has left #dap
16:05:15 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #dap
16:06:47 [Takahiro]
Takahiro has joined #dap
16:07:12 [kotakagi2]
kotakagi2 has joined #dap
16:07:28 [timeless]
Present- +1.781.362.aaaa
16:08:15 [timeless]
Present+ Travis_Leithead
16:09:55 [timeless]
Present+ Nick_Doty
16:10:23 [timeless]
Present+ Cathy_Chan
16:11:59 [shige__]
shige__ has joined #dap
16:12:24 [timeless]
Present+ Marcin_Hanclik
16:14:18 [timeless]
Present+ Rigo_Wenning
16:16:08 [timeless]
Present+ GregBillock
16:16:11 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:16:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html timeless
16:16:56 [timeless]
s/kensatu:/kensaku:/g
16:17:11 [timeless]
s/jungkee:/Jungkee:/g
16:17:15 [npdoty]
npdoty has joined #dap
16:17:28 [timeless]
s/Gmandyam:/gmandyam:/g
16:17:42 [fjh]
fjh has joined #dap
16:17:55 [timeless]
present+ Christine_Runnegar
16:17:58 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:17:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html timeless
16:18:01 [npdoty]
npdoty has joined #dap
16:18:41 [timeless]
present- cathy
16:18:52 [timeless]
present- Salon_Pasteur
16:20:16 [timeless]
s/cristine:/christine:/g
16:21:33 [timeless]
s/... get data at end/Travis: get data at end/
16:21:47 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:21:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-dap-minutes.html timeless
16:23:30 [npdoty]
npdoty has left #dap
16:33:36 [naomi]
naomi has joined #dap
17:01:53 [MikeH]
MikeH has joined #dap
17:10:18 [kensaku]
kensaku has joined #dap
17:14:00 [smaug]
smaug has joined #dap
17:17:31 [smaug]
smaug has left #dap
17:46:40 [naomi]
naomi has joined #dap
17:56:31 [leetv]
leetv has joined #dap
20:42:21 [tokamoto]
tokamoto has joined #dap
20:56:50 [bjkim]
bjkim has left #dap
21:54:38 [bjkim]
bjkim has joined #dap
21:59:16 [jsoh]
jsoh has joined #dap
22:18:35 [kensaku]
kensaku has joined #dap
23:05:16 [bjkim]
bjkim has left #dap
23:48:02 [plinss]
plinss has joined #dap