09:06:14 RRSAgent has joined #webfonts 09:06:14 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-webfonts-irc 09:06:27 ScribeNick: TabAtkins 09:06:28 chrisl: The evaluation report will be joint-edited by Chris Lilley and Tab Atkins 09:07:44 Regrets: Raph, JDaggett 09:09:05 Vlad: Given that we have at least an initial breakdown of benefits per feature, plus we can get this extra data from Raph I assume. 09:09:18 rubylin has joined #webfonts 09:09:26 ChrisL: Presumably ask other members to run the WOFF2 compressor over their own font collections and report back data. 09:09:53 ChrisL: I don't just want a number, but also a breakdown of features, like unicode-range, use of opentype features, toolchain used to produce,e tc. 09:10:16 jfkthame: Not sure if toolchain is necessarily something we can easily quantify, but getting a lot of data seems important. 09:10:25 ChrisL: Would it be possible to get SIL to run this over a lot of their fonts? 09:10:29 jfkthame: Probably. 09:10:47 ChrisL: Okay. That would be useful, as the fonts are certainly different in their use of OpenType tables. 09:10:52 ChrisL: And MS has a lot of fonts. 09:10:57 evanli has joined #webfonts 09:11:01 sylvain: We do. 09:11:15 ChrisL: So it would be good if someone could delegate someone to run the processor over them. 09:11:24 ChrisL: Is there still someone from the typography group? 09:11:29 sylvain: Yeah, we can ask them. 09:11:58 [round of introductions] 09:12:49 ChrisL: Does NTT have a reasonable range of fonts that you'd be willing to run things over? 09:13:03 taichi: My font and standardization work is somewhat independent from my work in NTT. 09:13:25 taichi: I'm working on a project called GlyphWiki, which 20k glyphs collected now. 09:13:35 http://en.glyphwiki.org/wiki/GlyphWiki:MainPage 09:13:59 [discussion of glyphwiki] 09:14:29 "GlyphWiki" is a shareable kanji (hanzi, hanja) glyph database system on the Internet for a solution of using unencoded kanji characters in digitizing text resources in kanji. " 09:16:09 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2012Oct/0006.html 09:16:18 taichi: I presented some of the infrastructure of glyphwiki at atypi last year. 09:19:26 Vlad: In preliminary discussions, LZMA was flagged as a potential issue. Anything going on there? 09:20:04 TabAtkins_: I recall Raph talking about that. Implementing LZMA properly requires reading a lot of source code, and possibly some papers in Russian. 09:20:31 TabAtkins_: Dunno what his current thinking is, but I know that discussion of re-speccing definitely came up before. 09:20:44 jfkthame: Does anyone know about the patent situation around LZMA? 09:20:53 TabAtkins_: I know we're apparently not very concerned about it. ^_^ 09:20:59 [discussion of European patent law] 09:21:15 sylvain: Looks like the code was released to the public domain in 2008. 09:21:32 ChrisL: Being public domain isn't my huge concern - it's that the source code appears to be the spec. 09:22:02 ChrisL: There are a lot of forum posts where people discuss weird things in the source code that need to be a specific thing, and they're not sure why. 09:22:25 ChrisL: Which is fine, until you need to port it to another architecture and find it was relying on interesting platform behavior. 09:22:44 jfkthame: As well, beyond being public domain, there can still be patents in the area. 09:23:05 ChrisL: And why is LZMA specifically being used here? is it just "better than gzip", or does it have unique qualities that make it worthwhile? 09:23:24 taichi: As an entropy encoder, it's a fairly general compression technique, which is very good. 09:23:52 taichi: One of the most common parts of recent good compression technique is extracting common parts. 09:24:15 taichi: Hangul, for example, is particularly good for this kind of part-extraction compression, because of its unique structure. 09:25:20 ChrisL: My point is that it seems that, if LZMA turns out to be unusable, it's not the end of the road for us - we can switch to another entropy coder. 09:25:35 sylvain: I wonder how much of a loss there would be by just reusing gzip as the actual encoder? 09:25:48 TabAtkins_: I know that Raph has investigated that. I don't know the numbers, though. 09:26:11 ChrisL: Given that the preprocessor step is effectively removing redundancy, I would imagine that gzip doesn't have as much to work on. 09:26:31 Vlad: Not necessarily. The preprocessor removes redundancy, yes, but in ways that are probably invisible to an entropy coder. 09:26:51 Vlad: For example, I may have a bounding box in one table, and a min/max X/Y extents in another table. These are equivalent pieces of data. 09:26:59 Vlad: But they won't compress together if both left in. 09:27:27 ChrisL: If LZMA is generally better than gzip, I wonder if http-bis folk have looked into it as a better way to pursue general compression. 09:27:39 Vlad: jdaggett brought that up earlier, when we first brought up discussion of compression in webfonts. 09:28:47 Vlad: But yes, lzma can pick up redundancy in your bitstream which would be very different from what your preprocessor would extract. 09:30:16 ChrisL: Speaking of that, I suppose that's something else the Evaluation Report should look at - are there incremental improvements in compression we can make that would greatly increase the computational load? If so, mobile might not be happy about that. 09:31:02 TabAtkins_: I know that Raph has identified several specific places where he can tweak the algorithm for exactly that kind of incremental gain. He's run numbers, and they weren't impressive enough for him to bundle them into his default proposal, but the WG can discuss and decide what might be worth adding in. 09:31:17 Vlad: Speaking of computational load, it's really the decompress we care about. 09:31:35 Vlad: With the original MTX compression, the difference in compress/decompress load is 10:1. 09:32:30 Vlad: What, if anything, can we discuss about the future plans for the WOFF2 spec? 09:32:41 Vlad: We have a file format proposal from Raph. 09:33:10 Vlad: I dont' think we have more to talk about beyond that, and dont' know how much more to talk about before we get the Evaluation Report to give us confidence we're going the right way. 09:33:37 ChrisL: to some extent, the details of the file format are idnependent of the compression choices, so it's reasonabl eto talk about it before we have compression data. 09:33:57 ChrisL: I don't recall seeing anything particularly bad in the file format part, but I haven't read it overly recently or with my standardization hat on. 09:34:30 jfkthame: What we have now is more or less a rough draft, not yet ready for speccing. 09:34:52 TabAtkins_: I'm willing to do an editorial pass over what we ahve and get it prepped into the right form/language for a real spec. That kind of work is fun and brainless. 09:35:05 TabAtkins_: Since Raph isn't familiar with that kind of structure we like. 09:35:14 kawabata has joined #webfonts 09:35:27 Vlad: Okay, so of key importance is to confirm that some folks can give us help with the LZMA spec. 09:35:46 Vlad: sylvain, I know you have compression experts and a good security team, so it would be good to have confirmation that this is something we can use. 09:36:03 ChrisL: Yeah, because as it stands, this'll be mandatory in WOFF2. 09:36:45 ChrisL: If it's legal, that makes it an Essential Requirement, which turns the legal knobs in a particular way. 09:37:04 Vlad: From past experience, folks like Moz are more willing to use open-source code... 09:37:06 jfkthame: Yeah. 09:37:36 jfkthame: One thing that nags at me is that if LZMA isn't very well specced, how confident are we in its security, then, and how confident are we in being able to fix security issues that arise when we expose it to data coming over the wire? 09:38:25 jfkthame: WOFF1 is reasoanbly simple enough that if a security problem arises, we're confident that someone can go in and fix it. LZMA sounds like it might not be in that realm. 09:38:44 ChrisL: Right. That's a reason we used gzip in WOFF1 - it was quicker, and it had wide security review already and was in wide use. 09:40:36 ACTION Tab to see what sort of security review has been done on LZMA, and to see if any "real" spec work has been done internally on it. 09:40:36 Created ACTION-111 - See what sort of security review has been done on LZMA, and to see if any "real" spec work has been done internally on it. [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2012-11-08]. 09:40:56 ACTION sylvain to see what sort of security review has been done on LZMA, and to see if any "real" spec work has been done internally on it. 09:40:56 Created ACTION-112 - See what sort of security review has been done on LZMA, and to see if any "real" spec work has been done internally on it. [on Sylvain Galineau - due 2012-11-08]. 09:41:27 ChrisL: Do any other WG members whose companies are large enough to be worth suing want to do a similar review? 09:41:36 ChrisL: Would Monotype be happy using this and deploying it? 09:41:51 Vlad: Yeah. In that case we'd be using it as the controlled input. Generating, not consuming. 09:42:24 jfkthame: I don't know if the security people in Moz have looked at LZMA. I'll see if anyone's done fuzzing on it, etc. 09:42:37 TabAtkins_: I feel like we've done some fuzzing as well. 09:43:02 ACTION Chris to ask http-bis folks if they're looked at LZMA, and if so, if they've rejected it as something they don't want to touch, or what. 09:43:02 Created ACTION-113 - Ask http-bis folks if they're looked at LZMA, and if so, if they've rejected it as something they don't want to touch, or what. [on Chris Lilley - due 2012-11-08]. 09:44:31
09:46:04 ChrisL: Talking of chartering, people should remember to rejoin the group. 09:46:57 rubylin has joined #webfonts 10:16:12 Topic: MIME types 10:16:24 Vlad: When are media types used? 10:16:31 ChrisL: Sent by the server. 10:17:28 ChrisL: One place you'd expect to see them is @font-face, but not really. Instead, we have a custom registry of strings for font-types. 10:17:36 TabAtkins_: Though we could add the real media types later. 10:17:53 Vlad: Yes, I'm just looking for places where the media types would be used but not currently. 10:18:19 ChrisL: Another one is that the UA can send a list of media types it accepts (conneg) and the server can then decide which to send. 10:19:09 Vlad: During the coffee break, we agreed to go ahead with the existing plan (register application/font-woff), and separately try to register top-level 'font/'. 10:19:30 ChrisL: At the same time we're doing this, opentype/truetype are gearing up to register font types as well. 10:19:51 ChrisL: Regardless, we definitely need to register the WOFF1 media type. 10:20:04 Vlad: Is it as simple as wrapping up the text and sending it to ietf? 10:20:24 ChrisL: Yes, it goes to a different group to establish it's been reviewed, etc. plh does that liaisoning. 10:20:46 Vlad: Since I have to do the same thing in ISO, I was just wondering who to contact. 10:21:01 ACTION chris to finish registration of WOFF1 mime type. 10:21:01 Created ACTION-114 - Finish registration of WOFF1 mime type. [on Chris Lilley - due 2012-11-08]. 10:21:51 ChrisL: I noticed that you wrote "WOFF1". I was under the impression that WOFF2 would use the same string. 10:21:55 Vlad: I thought the same. 10:22:03 TabAtkins_, jfkthame: Disagree. 10:22:42 jfkthame: You lose the ability to do conneg, to distinguish in font-face, etc. Defeats the point of having a mime type at all, really. 10:23:11 ChrisL: Okay. That's fine. In the future we'll register a "woff2", then. No need to be specific in the mimetype right now as "woff1". 10:23:39 ChrisL: Related to that, as WOFF1 is a PR, and the deadline is Nov 8, make sure you've responded favorably. 10:24:03 ChrisL: MS hasn't responded yet. 10:25:24 ChrisL: It makes my job presenting this to W3M much easier if we don't have to second-guess whether non-responses are because they hate it or just forgot it. 10:26:33 Vlad: Speaking of top-level types, about a year ago there was a discussion in ietf about font-type registration. 10:26:51 Vlad: Some people asked why it's not yet registered, others complained that prior attempts failed and so discouraging new attempts... 10:27:08 Vlad: I responded that I heard a rumor that it takes a lifetime to get it in. 10:27:19 Vlad: and someone responded with "who said that? Just submit it!" 10:27:36 Vlad: So Chris, do you have an insider info on what kind of effort this requires? 10:28:06 ChrisL: It varies. There is relatively recent evidence of adding new types (model). 10:28:38 ChrisL: A while back there was significant pushback from people not wanting to extend any new top-level types, because they were laser-focused on their use in email clients. 10:28:59 ChrisL: But now there are other opinions, and they recognize that they are useful outside of email. 10:29:07 ChrisL: but I still estimate it'll take the better part of a year. 10:29:31 Vlad: There's been a new attempt to make a proposal. 10:30:49 Vlad: From the process pov, how much more complicated will it be compared to regular subtype registratino? 10:31:08 ChrisL: Fairly more complex. You have to make a draft which becomes an RFC, etc. 10:31:26 Vlad: Would it be outrageous plagiarism to reuse some of the text from previous attempts? 10:31:28 ChrisL: Not at all. 10:31:36 Vlad: Okay, because Dave Singer tried this last time. 10:32:07 ACTION Chris and Vlad to put together the draft for top-level font registration, possibly based on text from previous attempts. 10:32:07 Created ACTION-115 - And Vlad to put together the draft for top-level font registration, possibly based on text from previous attempts. [on Chris Lilley - due 2012-11-08]. 10:34:35 Vlad: Looking through the mailing list, several people have offered to help with this process, such as Martin Durst, Thom Phinney, etc. 10:41:33 sylvain has joined #webfonts 11:47:23 rubylin has joined #webfonts 12:51:48 jfkthame has joined #webfonts 13:04:46 rubylin has joined #webfonts 13:11:16 sylvain has joined #webfonts 13:21:53 sylvain has left #webfonts 13:31:32 evanli has joined #webfonts 14:44:47 jfkthame has joined #webfonts 15:10:54 ChrisL has joined #webfonts 15:11:07 rrsagent, make minutes 15:11:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL 15:11:40 rrsagent, make logs public 15:11:43 rrsagent, make logs public 15:11:46 rrsagent, make minutes 15:11:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL 15:12:13 Meeting: WebFonts TPAC f2f, Lyon 15:12:18 Chair: Vlad 15:12:22 rrsagent, make minutes 15:12:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL 15:13:55 Present: Vlad, Jonathan, Sylvain, Tab, aaaa, Taichi, Chris 15:13:58 rrsagent, make minutes 15:13:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL 15:23:04 kawabata has joined #webfonts 15:37:52 jfkthame has joined #webfonts 15:40:17 rubylin has joined #webfonts 15:50:29 trackbot has joined #webfonts 16:19:18 ChrisL has joined #webfonts 17:57:56 trackbot has joined #webfonts 17:58:56 trackbot has joined #webfonts 17:59:15 trackbot has joined #webfonts 19:23:08 rubylin has joined #webfonts 19:29:09 leehomlin has joined #webfonts 19:37:07 rubylin has joined #webfonts