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14:38:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-prov-irc
14:39:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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14:39:03 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV
14:39:03 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 21 minutes
14:39:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be PROV
14:39:04 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:39:04 <trackbot> Date: 01 November 2012
14:39:04 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 21 minutes
14:39:12 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.11.01
14:39:20 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:40:01 <Luc> Regrets: Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Daniel Garijo, Curt Tilmes
14:40:16 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public
14:40:26 <Luc> topic: Admin
14:56:52 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov
14:57:07 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:57:14 <Zakim> +Luc
14:57:15 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:00:20 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
15:00:39 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:00:42 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aaaa
15:00:48 <MacTed> MacTed has changed the topic to: PROV WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/ -- current agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.11.01
15:00:49 <tlebo> zakim, I am aaaa
15:00:49 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it
15:01:01 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:01:01 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:01:02 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:01:02 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:01:35 <Luc> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luc, [IPcaller], MacTed (muted), tlebo
15:01:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:01:51 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
15:01:53 <tlebo> I'll scribe
15:02:00 <Luc> scribe: tlebo
15:02:27 <tlebo> luc: good afternoon.
15:02:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]
15:02:35 <jun> jun has joined #prov
15:02:39 <tlebo> ... trying to close issues leading to F2F
15:02:51 <Luc> Proposed: approve Minutes of the October 25, 2012 Telecon
15:02:55 <tlebo> topic: admin issues
15:03:01 <Paolo> +1
15:03:02 <jun> +1
15:03:03 <tlebo> proposed: approve last week's minutes
15:03:06 <zednik> +1
15:03:12 <tlebo> +1
15:03:20 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aabb
15:03:23 <hook> hook has joined #prov
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15:03:41 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov
15:03:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aaa]
15:03:48 <Zakim> +??P14
15:03:51 <Luc> Accepted:  Minutes of the October 25, 2012 Telecon
15:03:59 <tlebo> accepted: minutes approved.
15:04:10 <smiles> zakim, ??P14 is me
15:04:10 <Zakim> +smiles; got it
15:04:10 <tlebo> topic: outstanding actions
15:04:31 <GK1> GK1 has joined #prov
15:04:38 <tlebo> tim has not done the cross referencing yet.
15:05:07 <tlebo> tim: the cross referencing is editorial
15:05:23 <tlebo> Stian's 118 can be closed
15:05:43 <tlebo> 121 - Tim's action on subclassing.
15:06:20 <Luc> topic: exit criteria
15:06:22 <tlebo> luc: not that we do NOT have a telecon next Thur., since F2F is Friday.
15:06:28 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Oct/0305.html
15:06:42 <tlebo> luc: paul sent proposal to accept criteria.
15:06:47 <tlebo> ... all responses were positive.
15:07:01 <Luc> q?
15:07:01 <tlebo> ... can we record approval? any objections?
15:07:16 <Luc> accepted:  CR Exit Criteria defined at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvCRExitCriteria are approved
15:07:42 <tlebo> luc: questionaire. Is it ready to submit to W3C management team?
15:07:55 <Zakim> -MacTed
15:08:36 <tlebo> zednik: trying to fix Paul's last issue on it. Implementation consuming external construct. Will address them today and get confirmation, will send it out.
15:08:54 <tlebo> zednik: will try to finish it today.
15:09:23 <tlebo> luc: will try to have an email vote ahead of the F2F
15:09:26 <Luc> q?
15:09:43 <Luc> topic: Prov-o Issues
15:10:06 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/10
15:10:10 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/3
15:11:01 <tlebo> 349 can be closed
15:11:57 <tlebo> 479 can be clsoed b/c we are not using Trig.
15:12:09 <tlebo> 491 was Stian handling it.
15:12:35 <tlebo> Luc: Tim to draft response and contact reviewer.
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15:13:27 <Zakim> +??P13
15:13:31 <CraigTrim> CraigTrim has joined #PROV
15:13:44 <GK1> zakim, ??p13 is me
15:13:44 <Zakim> +GK1; got it
15:13:53 <tlebo> Tim: I''l hunt down everthing there...
15:13:54 <GK> GK has joined #prov
15:13:58 <Zakim> + +1.661.382.aacc
15:14:16 <CraigTrim> zakim, aacc is me
15:14:17 <Zakim> +CraigTrim; got it
15:15:46 <Luc> Rephrasing in prov-dm: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/rev/363ce30cec66
15:15:53 <tlebo> Tim: 552 is the only big issue, and I'll start it after this call.
15:16:31 <tlebo> luc: new definitions include "relation"
15:17:37 <tlebo> luc: change of text, but not of the ontology.
15:18:09 <tlebo> tlebo: my approach will be to change the text.
15:18:41 <tlebo> luc: draft response, group approves, convey change to commenter, and have acknowledgment before F2F.
15:19:04 <Luc> q?
15:19:16 <tlebo> ... can we vote, so that the acknowledgement can be sent to the commenter on Monday.
15:19:38 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-comments/2012Nov/0000.html
15:20:34 <tlebo> tim: my impression was that it is just an announcement.
15:21:05 <tlebo> luc: they are using wasInfluencedBy, but the rec suggest to use a subproperty.
15:21:55 <Luc> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:21:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luc, [IPcaller], tlebo, [IPcaller.a], [IPcaller.aa], +1.818.731.aabb, [IPcaller.aaa], smiles, GK1, CraigTrim
15:22:02 <tlebo> tlebo: yes, we can look at their use and suggest to use a subproperty.
15:22:24 <Luc> topic: PROV-Constraints issues
15:22:54 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/12
15:23:09 <tlebo> jcheney: isssues were raised from the feedback last week.
15:23:41 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicComments#PROV-CONSTRAINTS.28Under_review.29
15:23:43 <tlebo> ... haven't heard any feedback beyond minor typos.
15:24:09 <tlebo> ... unless objection, would like to send the responses to the commenters.
15:24:19 <tlebo> ... two more issues that are leftover from last call. internal.
15:24:22 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:24:25 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/559
15:24:59 <tlebo> ... made propsoed change and considers it done. Do we need to send a formal response?
15:25:15 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/522
15:25:16 <tlebo> ... the comment spread from issue on DM
15:25:24 <tlebo> luc: we need to approve responses.
15:26:30 <Luc>  PROPOSED: The group endorses the responses to issue-556, issue-576, issue-582, issue-586, issue-587, issue-588, issue-584, issue-579,  issue-585, issue-583, issue-580, issue-577, issue-578, issue-581
15:28:15 <tlebo> jcheney: the constraints doc is not addressing how to implement them in OWL etc.
15:28:18 <tlebo> +1
15:28:38 <Luc> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:28:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luc, tlebo, [IPcaller.a], [IPcaller.aa], +1.818.731.aabb, [IPcaller.aaa], smiles, GK1, CraigTrim
15:28:49 <GK> 0 (not reviewed or followed discussion)
15:28:58 <smiles> +1 (though I admit to not having read them all thoroughly...)
15:29:05 <khalidBelhajjame> +1
15:29:12 <zednik> +1
15:29:33 <Luc> accepted: The group endorses the responses to issue-556, issue-576, issue-582, issue-586, issue-587, issue-588, issue-584, issue-579,  issue-585, issue-583, issue-580, issue-577, issue-578, issue-581
15:29:43 <jun> +0 (haven't been able to review)
15:31:01 <tlebo> jcheney: I'll contact the commenters instead of Paul
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15:31:12 <tlebo> luc: any other changes?
15:31:25 <tlebo> jcheney: all that are necessary are done.
15:31:37 <tlebo> ... some quick issues to get feedback:
15:32:01 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/559
15:32:28 <tlebo> ... 559 was a side effect, do we need to make a formal response?
15:32:47 <tlebo> luc: was an internal comment.
15:32:54 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/575
15:33:04 <satya> satya has joined #prov
15:33:07 <tlebo> jcheney: links between identifier fields.
15:33:08 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#entity.id
15:33:28 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo
15:33:46 <tlebo> luc: i'll do it after the call
15:34:26 <tlebo> ... in responses, can you ask them to acknowledge and whether they are satisfied?
15:34:32 <Luc> q?
15:34:42 <Luc> topic: prov-n issues
15:34:58 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/11
15:35:04 <tlebo> luc: only 2 issues
15:35:39 <tlebo> ... ivan was fine, but we want to confirm...
15:36:05 <tlebo> ... namespace declarations and bundles. bundles do not "inherit" prefixes.
15:36:32 <Luc> q?
15:36:32 <tlebo> q+
15:36:33 <GK> q+
15:36:55 <GK> q-
15:37:19 <Luc> ack tl
15:37:26 <tlebo> @gk probably would have stated it better...
15:38:02 <tlebo> gk: same point as Tim, you were responding to URIs of entities
15:38:11 <tlebo> luc: do we need to revise?
15:38:23 <jcheney> Currently says: "The scope of a namespace declaration directly occurring in a document is the document itself, excluding the bundles it may contain."
15:38:25 <tlebo> ... one benefit is that bundles are totally distinct.
15:38:52 <jcheney> This forces you to repeat prefixes in common cases, including many natural-looking examples in prov-dm
15:39:00 <Luc> q?
15:39:40 <Luc> q?
15:40:04 <Luc> q?
15:40:12 <Luc> scribe: smiles
15:40:15 <jcheney> q+
15:40:33 <tlebo_> tlebo_ has joined #prov
15:40:53 <GK> I was saying that I thought the current design is maybe sub-optimal for human use, but not fatally flawed.
15:41:04 <tlebo_> tlebo_ has joined #prov
15:41:21 <Luc> q?
15:41:23 <smiles> jcheney: Missed original change to excluding namespaces in top-level bundle; changing the scope to include the namespaces from top-level might not break anything?
15:41:54 <smiles> Luc: Would need to get advice on whether this is only an editorial change
15:42:08 <smiles> ... How strongly do you feel about this?
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15:43:01 <smiles> jcheney: There are situations where it is useful to think of bundles as independent and copy-paste without worrying about top-level, but using namespace without repeating declaration throughout a document is common
15:43:45 <smiles> ... Natural expectation is that if you state something then embedded scopes would include that thing
15:44:05 <tlebo> FWIW, Turtle and Trig permits the prefixes to be defined once and used in any of many "bundle".
15:44:06 <smiles> Luc: Are we willing to go ahead with change even if it is not just editoral, i.e. back to LC
15:44:26 <tlebo> This is not worth going back to Last Call for.
15:44:37 <smiles> jcheney: It is something that people will anyway notice and complain about in implementation
15:44:44 <GK> Maybe ask Ivan if this would need to redo last call.  It seems a small change, albeit technical.
15:44:56 <ivan> if I may, just on IRC...
15:45:02 <ivan> this is not a design change
15:45:09 <Luc> thanks ivan
15:45:18 <ivan> this is a change in a syntactic sugar
15:45:25 <Luc> ok
15:45:35 <ivan> it would influence implementations, but that is not the issue for LC
15:45:53 <smiles> Luc: Given the above, it would be good to know the WG's preference
15:46:05 <Luc> show of hand: allow scope of prefix declarations
15:46:40 <tlebo> +1 because that's how it's done in Turtle/Trig, -1 b/c PROV-N is for examples in Recs :-)
15:46:59 <smiles> satya: Please clarify question
15:47:13 <GK> +0.5 to top-level namespaces visible in contained bundles in PROV-N (next question: can they be redefined in inner bundles?)
15:47:22 <jcheney> See namespace scope rules in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-n.html#expression-NamespaceDeclaration
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15:47:44 <smiles> Luc: Currently in PROV-N, when declaring prefix at top level and want to re-use in nested bundle, have to redeclare prefix in bundle
15:47:48 <jcheney> Currently, this is illegal:
15:47:53 <jcheney> document  prefix ex <http://example.org/>  bundle ex:b1     entity(ex:e1, ...someattr1...)     entity(ex:e1, ...someattr2...)  endBundle endDocument
15:48:05 <jcheney> because ex is not re-declared inside the bundle
15:49:02 <smiles> Luc: @GK, yes, prefixes could be redefined in inner bundles
15:49:24 <jcheney> I http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-n.html#expression-NamespaceDeclaration
15:49:42 <smiles> jcheney: Suggest just changing sentence in PROV-N from "excluding the bundles it may contain" to "including..."
15:50:07 <tlebo> reusing throughout and allowing redefinition in inner bundles would make it much more useful for humans to read and write.
15:50:13 <smiles> ... People have been writing examples that assume the proposed change without realising
15:50:14 <GK> Seems to me easier to change the text than the examples
15:50:16 <Luc> proposed: change  scope of prefix declaration so that it includes bundles
15:50:30 <trackbot> trackbot has joined #prov
15:50:36 <satya> +1 to change text
15:50:38 <smiles> +1
15:50:41 <GK> +1
15:50:46 <jcheney> +1
15:50:53 <ivan> +1
15:50:54 <jun> +1
15:50:56 <tlebo> +.5
15:51:01 <zednik> +1
15:51:10 <Luc> accepted: change  scope of prefix declaration so that it includes bundles
15:51:31 <smiles> Luc: Next issue: MIME types
15:51:44 <smiles> Luc: @GK, did you look at changes implemented?
15:52:02 <smiles> GK: No
15:52:20 <smiles> Luc: Can you prioritise issue 573?
15:52:51 <smiles> Luc: Everything else covered in PROV-N aside from two issues above
15:52:57 <Luc> topic: PROV-DM issues
15:53:17 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/2
15:53:37 <smiles> Luc: Two issues waiting for confirmation from reviewers on changes
15:53:48 <smiles> ... and issue 475 on mention
15:54:08 <smiles> ... every other change implemented and logged
15:54:29 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Oct/0321.html
15:54:43 <Luc> q?
15:54:52 <smiles> Luc: Regarding issue 475, did not get response on issue
15:54:52 <jcheney> q-
15:55:31 <smiles> Luc: GK suggested dropping this feature at risk
15:56:04 <smiles> Luc: Conclusion of my response is that we want feedback from implementers
15:56:17 <smiles> ... As we exit CR phase, can look at suitability
15:56:36 <Luc> q?
15:56:46 <smiles> Luc: Any feedback now?
15:56:50 <tlebo> +1 to keep it in, marked as at risk.
15:57:22 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicComments#ISSUE-475_.28Mention.29
15:57:39 <Luc> q?
15:57:41 <smiles> Luc: Is the group satisfied with this answer, and to vote now?
15:57:55 <Luc> q?
15:58:11 <smiles> ... or vote by email?
15:58:11 <Luc> q?
15:58:26 <smiles> +1 to vote by email
15:58:27 <zednik> I like vote by email
15:58:36 <jcheney> +1 email
15:58:38 <tlebo> vote by email seems to be the resounding response. I know I could use a bit more time to work through it entirely.
15:59:18 <smiles> Luc: Will send an email with a deadline
15:59:24 <Luc> topic: prov-xml
16:00:06 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo
16:00:17 <smiles> zednik: We have made significant changes to XML note, including table of features mapping  PROV-DM to XSD, plus examples with excerpts of schema
16:00:40 <zednik> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/1816251fd592/xml/prov-xml.html
16:00:46 <smiles> ... Now looking for feedback on the HTML
16:01:48 <smiles> Luc: Thanks. There is an opportunity to release first WD of this doc with CRs of other specs. Will it be ready?
16:02:23 <smiles> ... Next week we would take a vote, discuss with W3C management to publish CRs, so two weeks for XML document before publishing
16:02:39 <hook> hook has joined #prov
16:02:52 <smiles> zednik: Probably get ready in two weeks, but need to address WG comments, ensure there is no gaps (e.g. bundles)
16:03:12 <smiles> Luc: Would be nice to have review taking place during week
16:03:17 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aabb
16:03:24 <Luc> q?
16:03:32 <jcheney> sure
16:03:34 <smiles> ... Who is willing to review PROV-XML document?
16:03:45 <tlebo> one what timeframe?
16:03:46 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aadd
16:03:47 <hook> hook has joined #prov
16:04:02 <tlebo> thanks. Then no :-)
16:04:03 <smiles> Luc: Feedback in time for F2F
16:04:19 <smiles> ... Question for reviewers: Can we release this document as a FPWD
16:05:06 <smiles> Luc: Intent to include XML in primer. Feasible to include for release?
16:05:51 <smiles> smiles: For primer, if given XML fragments, then quick job to add
16:06:07 <smiles> zednik: Possibly, but need to look at examples in primer
16:06:20 <GK> @luc - the text/provenance-notation MIME registration revisions look fine to me at http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-n.html#media-type
16:06:24 <hook> might need to check latest fragments for bundles per recent updates
16:06:36 <Zakim> -CraigTrim
16:06:37 <Zakim> -tlebo
16:06:39 <Zakim> -smiles
16:06:45 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.aaa]
16:06:47 <Zakim> -Luc
16:06:50 <GK> GK has left #prov
16:06:50 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aadd
16:06:51 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
16:06:51 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.aa]
16:07:16 <Zakim> -GK1
16:07:17 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended
16:07:17 <Zakim> Attendees were Luc, [IPcaller], +1.315.330.aaaa, tlebo, MacTed, +1.818.731.aabb, smiles, GK1, +1.661.382.aacc, CraigTrim, Satya_Sahoo, +1.818.731.aadd
16:07:18 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public
16:07:22 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:07:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-prov-minutes.html Luc
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