IRC log of mlw-lt on 2012-11-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:24:52 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc
07:24:59 [Zakim]
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07:25:04 [fsasaki]
meeting: MLW-LT Lyon f2f
07:26:01 [fsasaki]
chair: felix
07:26:03 [fsasaki]
scribe: various
07:26:20 [fsasaki]
agenda: http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/LyonNov2012#Thursday_1st_Nov:_MLW-LT_WG_meeting_agenda
07:28:48 [Ankit]
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07:30:11 [fsasaki]
action: felix to follow-up on discussion about regular expression for allowed characters, see http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-mlw-minutes.html#item02
07:30:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-261 - Follow-up on discussion about regular expression for allowed characters, see http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-mlw-minutes.html#item02 [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-11-08].
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07:45:45 [Yves_]
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07:48:39 [Yves_]
yes, I've seen your email. Thanks.
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08:07:13 [fsasaki]
scribe: clemens
08:08:39 [fsasaki]
topic: http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/LyonNov2012#Thursday_1st_Nov:_MLW-LT_WG_meeting_agenda
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08:09:20 [clemens]
Agenda accepted
08:09:39 [fsasaki]
topic: self intro
08:10:00 [fsasaki]
people doing self-intro
08:10:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
08:15:54 [fsasaki]
topic: review implementation isssues
08:16:06 [DomJones]
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08:16:58 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#domain-implementation
08:17:40 [Yves_]
changes are: removing quotes and duplicates
08:21:09 [fsasaki]
Need for a common representation of the ITS data categories in XLIFF, see XLIFF_Mapping
08:21:30 [clemens]
felix: domain issue is "fine"
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08:27:43 [Yves_]
ITS to XLIFF working draft mapping: http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/XLIFF_Mapping
08:31:06 [clemens]
Implementors are waiting for the XLIPP mapping
08:31:16 [clemens]
XLIFF
08:31:31 [fsasaki]
s/XLIPP/XLIFF/
08:32:57 [clemens]
current direction is that pointers are not be needed in XLIFF
08:33:33 [fsasaki]
"mrk", "sm" and "em" elements in XLIFF. "mrk" and "sm" would be extended
08:34:09 [fsasaki]
XML Schema subset of regex for allowed characters
08:34:57 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#allowedchars-implementation
08:36:57 [clemens]
Yves, could you repeat your issues please? Didn't get everything....
08:43:36 [Yves_]
the issue is that not all programming languages support all XML schema regex pattern
08:44:01 [clemens]
thx, Yves
08:44:16 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-mlw-minutes.html#item02
08:48:29 [clemens]
we keep the draft as it is now and postpone the topic
08:48:39 [fsasaki]
Allowed Characters regular expression for not allowing HTML tags in content nodes where only plain text content is allowed
08:59:24 [tadej]
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09:02:26 [Yves_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:02:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html Yves_
09:04:33 [fsasaki]
action: pedro to write note about allowed characters issue with help from Mauricio and karl - due 8. November
09:04:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-262 - write note about allowed characters issue with help from Mauricio and karl [on Pedro Luis Díez Orzas - due 2012-11-08].
09:05:34 [fsasaki]
"Need to add all the document HMTL tags (wrap the content with html, head, body tags) so we can add a link to a global rules XML "
09:05:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
09:09:46 [DomJones]
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09:12:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
09:13:57 [fsasaki]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0005.html
09:23:20 [clemens]
action: implying some its:rules in html tags
09:23:20 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find implying. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/users>.
09:24:22 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#relating-its-plus-xhtml
09:25:09 [fsasaki]
1) input 18_8.xml
09:25:31 [fsasaki]
2) XML parsing of HTML fragment e.g. via validator.nu library in 18_8.xml
09:25:46 [fsasaki]
output of step 2): DOM or XML serizalization
09:25:56 [fsasaki]
3) normal ITS processing
09:28:42 [fsasaki]
0) input is "some HTML data"
09:28:50 [fsasaki]
next step: step 2)
09:28:57 [fsasaki]
next step: step 3)
09:35:14 [clemens]
Coffee break now
09:39:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html Yves_
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10:05:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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10:08:25 [clemens]
that'd be great, thank you :)
10:08:49 [Yves_]
scribe: Yves_
10:09:46 [Yves_]
mauricio: one possibility for solving this could be to changing to XHTML the HTML content
10:10:04 [Yves_]
dF: that would allow local ITS markup
10:10:38 [Yves_]
Felix: so no change for the data category
10:10:50 [Yves_]
.. maybe some note on best practices?
10:11:23 [Yves_]
dF: one problem Karl noted is the validator inside Drupal
10:11:34 [mdelolmo]
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10:11:53 [Yves_]
Jirka: I can try to look at it and see it could be fixed
10:12:32 [Yves_]
Felix: but do we need guidance for CMS in general?
10:12:50 [Yves_]
dF: maybe in a non-normative section
10:13:37 [daveL]
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10:13:41 [Yves_]
Moritz: yes a best practice
10:13:59 [fsasaki]
action: david to summarize the options and the recommendations related to HTML parsing workflow in the CMS, see discussion at http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T10-13-41
10:13:59 [trackbot]
Sorry, ambiguous username (more than one match) - david
10:13:59 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. dlewis6, dfilip)
10:14:11 [fsasaki]
action: dfilip to summarize the options and the recommendations related to HTML parsing workflow in the CMS, see discussion at http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T10-13-41
10:14:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-263 - Summarize the options and the recommendations related to HTML parsing workflow in the CMS, see discussion at http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T10-13-41 [on David Filip - due 2012-11-08].
10:14:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html Yves_
10:14:39 [Yves_]
Felix: so maybe a best practice for CMS
10:15:28 [fsasaki]
"Troubles with namespaces in HTML5. "
10:15:50 [pnietoca]
xmlns:h="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
10:16:21 [Yves_]
Pedro: Jirka noted we need the namespace definition
10:16:25 [pnietoca]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Oct/0226.html
10:16:52 [Yves_]
Jirka: the namespace declaration is missing
10:17:41 [Yves_]
.. probably an implementation issue
10:18:09 [Yves_]
.. the node in the DOM should list the namespaces
10:18:22 [Yves_]
.. I can help if needed
10:19:22 [Yves_]
Richard Ishida comes to discuss logistisc/topics with HTML5 WG
10:19:40 [Yves_]
.. and I18N WG
10:20:50 [fsasaki]
tomorrow 11 a.m. meeting with i18n wg
10:21:07 [Yves_]
back to implementation issues
10:21:23 [Yves_]
.. HTML5 namespace issue resolved it seems
10:21:23 [fsasaki]
"Need to come to an agreement to map domain values to be consistent for both Lucy and DCU's MT Systems. "
10:22:06 [Yves_]
Felix: important for the showcase that the two system communicate
10:22:56 [fsasaki]
action: thomas to follow up on domain list topic with DCU
10:22:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-264 - Follow up on domain list topic with DCU [on Thomas Rüdesheim - due 2012-11-08].
10:23:28 [fsasaki]
"Problems to use global rules with the provenance and quality metadata since ATLAS PW1 cannot place files on the client server. "
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10:24:16 [Yves_]
Pedro: our system doesn't allow to create rules file on the client
10:24:38 [Yves_]
.. rules file then points to our server, but that's not the right way to do it
10:25:03 [Yves_]
.. also will we drop global rules?
10:25:45 [Yves_]
David: important question for some data categories like provenance, etc.
10:26:06 [Yves_]
.. some idea is to exclude some pointers
10:26:33 [Yves_]
.. but some use cases show some non-pointer global rules are useful
10:27:06 [Yves_]
.. other issue is how to address attributes
10:27:45 [Yves_]
.. transltable attributes is not best practice,
10:28:08 [Yves_]
.. so maybe it's ok to drop global rules despite those use cases
10:28:34 [Yves_]
Felix: what about the MT quality
10:28:51 [Yves_]
dF: well some attributes are not going away, like in HTML5
10:28:57 [fsasaki]
s/MT quality/quality issue/
10:29:55 [Yves_]
.. no way to markup things like alt or title
10:30:33 [Yves_]
Felix: two types of implementers: some using XLIFF extration, other work directly with original data
10:30:51 [Yves_]
.. for XLIFF case this is not an issue
10:31:00 [Yves_]
.. for original data this is a problem
10:32:08 [Yves_]
David: we should be consistent, if an attribute can be translated, it should be able to get other data categories too
10:32:24 [Yves_]
.. an approach maybe could be to use a local attribute?
10:33:02 [Yves_]
Felix: two topics one is where to put the global rules, the other is do we need global rules
10:33:42 [Yves_]
.. with local, you can't address attributes
10:33:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html Yves_
10:34:29 [Yves_]
Tadej: so global rules in script
10:34:36 [Yves_]
.. ok with that solution
10:35:03 [Yves_]
.. also concern about a rule should not have pointer and values at the same time
10:35:24 [Yves_]
.. basically not doing proxy stand-off annotation
10:35:59 [Yves_]
Felix: yes, should we drop this statement?
10:36:37 [Yves_]
.. one could have combination of both in some cases
10:37:25 [Yves_]
Tadej: this would cause clashes in some cases
10:37:47 [Yves_]
.. not sure if this affect stand-off
10:38:03 [Yves_]
Felix: stand-off is different
10:38:32 [Yves_]
.. the URI points to a piece of info, so it still "add" information
10:38:56 [Yves_]
Tadej: so goal to to keep all info in one place rather than scatter it around
10:39:39 [Yves_]
Felix: If we keep the constraint what do we do with cases like Quality Issue
10:40:27 [Yves_]
David: is XLIFF the only use case for pointer in Quality issue
10:41:56 [fsasaki]
yves: pointer for the reference attrbute to standoff markup is needed
10:42:01 [fsasaki]
.. at least in the XLIFF case
10:42:37 [fsasaki]
felix: would that be resolved by a mapping table?
10:42:50 [fsasaki]
yves: would not make the stuff processable by an ITS processor
10:43:28 [fsasaki]
yves: need for pointer would be just for reference attribute, not the other pointers
10:44:09 [Yves_]
David: if XLIFF is the only use case, should we make it a special case?
10:44:11 [Jirka]
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10:45:07 [fsasaki]
yves: can imagine an "Its only" processor to deal with quality issues
10:45:19 [fsasaki]
.. they can have special information for ITS
10:45:29 [fsasaki]
.. but big question is: do we want ot allow that to happen
10:45:42 [fsasaki]
.. that is have other formats to work without XLIFF markup
10:46:13 [fsasaki]
.. if other formats don't allow the ITS native mapping attribute, what to do?
10:46:26 [fsasaki]
.. if XLIFF mrk allows extension, the problem goes away
10:47:39 [Yves_]
Felix: difficult to discuss because we depend on XLIFF decission
10:49:35 [fsasaki]
yves: we need to wait for next week XLIFF meeting, if is not resolved, we need to find a different way
10:49:43 [DomJones]
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10:51:12 [fsasaki]
action: daveL to react to decision on extensibility for mrk in XLIFF and the result for our "pointer" attributes
10:51:12 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-265 - React to decision on extensibility for mrk in XLIFF and the result for our "pointer" attributes [on David Lewis - due 2012-11-08].
10:51:51 [Yves_]
Felix: Example 54 and 55
10:51:57 [Yves_]
.. RDFa
10:52:31 [Yves_]
.. .. ITS generic processor can then work with RDFa
10:53:05 [Yves_]
.. Karl provided feedback
10:53:21 [Yves_]
.. is this a use case for Pointer
10:53:43 [dF]
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10:53:44 [Yves_]
Tadej: the example as some small issue
10:54:07 [fsasaki]
"typeof=http:/nerd.eurecom.fr/ontology#Place": only single slash
10:54:19 [Yves_]
.. single slash missing and miss-named attribute
10:54:40 [tadej]
Example 55: "entityTypeRefPointer" -> "disambiguationClassRefPointer"
10:54:50 [tadej]
"disambigClassRefPointer"
10:55:37 [Yves_]
Felix: is that the only way to consume RFDa if you don't know about it?
10:55:41 [Yves_]
.. it seems so
10:55:49 [Yves_]
Tadej: yes
10:56:55 [Yves_]
.. main difference with Example 52
10:57:09 [Yves_]
.. it's much less stable, more prone to error
10:57:20 [Yves_]
.. using the pointer is more stable
10:57:41 [Yves_]
.. but see why 52 would not be recommended
10:58:22 [Yves_]
.. better for consistency using local would be better
10:58:53 [fsasaki]
action: felix to edit disambig example
10:58:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-266 - Edit disambig example [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-11-08].
11:00:10 [Yves_]
Feelix: Currently pointer/non-pointer can be mixed in Disambiguation
11:00:18 [Yves_]
.. not good
11:00:28 [Yves_]
.. you should do either one
11:00:45 [Yves_]
Tadej: agreed
11:01:14 [fsasaki]
action: felix to try to simplify disambiguation globally
11:01:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-267 - Try to simplify disambiguation globally [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-11-08].
11:02:13 [fsasaki]
"Language Information: Use-Case? When is xml:lang or lang not enough or can't be used? "
11:02:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
11:02:41 [Yves_]
karl: we have xml:lang or lang
11:03:01 [Yves_]
.. when using HTML we should use lang
11:03:47 [Yves_]
.. maybe the content of those attributes should be explicitely defined
11:04:07 [Yves_]
Felix: in section 6.7.1
11:04:18 [Yves_]
.. we say that BCP47 is the value
11:05:10 [Yves_]
Dave: it's there for XML vaocabulary where xml:lang is not used
11:05:25 [Yves_]
.. no need for pointer in HTML5
11:06:41 [Yves_]
Pedro: another case is to keep info about what was the original language
11:06:56 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/
11:07:09 [fsasaki]
Example 19: Declaring language information with a non-standard mechanism
11:07:11 [Yves_]
.. but that's not for this.
11:07:21 [Yves_]
Felix: yes, it's for XML
11:08:47 [Yves_]
Pablo: was not able to come up with use case in HTML
11:09:51 [Yves_]
Dave: so all three xml:lang, lang and pointer are relevant
11:11:22 [fsasaki]
yves: various legacy content has other attributes for language information, that is a use case for language Information
11:11:52 [fsasaki]
.. all those cases use bcp 47 as a value, so with the pointer attribute we always get the same value
11:12:25 [Yves_]
dF: what about the BCP47 extensions
11:13:01 [Yves_]
Felix: ITS does not do validation of content
11:13:16 [Yves_]
.. could have a note about issue related to extensions
11:15:03 [Yves_]
Pedro: maybe ITS 3.0 could have a way to indicate the original language
11:15:17 [Yves_]
Felix: could be done in provenance maybe
11:16:09 [Yves_]
Moritz: so can we drop langInfo for HTML5?
11:16:46 [fsasaki]
"[Ed. note: Add something about HTML5 lang]"
11:16:49 [Yves_]
Felix: there is an editor note about it
11:17:28 [dF]
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6497
11:17:31 [Yves_]
.. Done with the implementation issues
11:17:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html Yves_
11:18:07 [Yves_]
Felix: could start with test suite
11:18:30 [Yves_]
Jirka: we need to start to work on schema
11:18:46 [Yves_]
.. several data categories are still not stable
11:18:56 [Yves_]
.. we need that for the publication
11:19:23 [Yves_]
Felix: for disambiguation MTconfidance it's about pointer and tool reference
11:19:39 [Yves_]
for LQ Precis it's about implementation commitements
11:20:37 [Yves_]
dF: name may prevent adoption
11:21:02 [Yves_]
Felix:another detail is the question about global rules
11:21:16 [Yves_]
.. let say cut off date in 3 weeks
11:21:30 [Yves_]
s/let/let's/
11:21:52 [Yves_]
.. including the details with global rules and pointers
11:22:40 [Yves_]
Jirka: maybe too short, need 2 weeks at least
11:22:52 [Yves_]
.. could do it in parallel
11:23:19 [Yves_]
felix: Friday 23rd would be the cut off day
11:23:43 [Yves_]
.. then end of nov we have stable content
11:23:57 [Yves_]
.. then we have two more weeks for schema and tests
11:24:27 [Yves_]
.. not sure how realisitic it is in december
11:24:44 [Yves_]
Leroy: should be ok for tests
11:25:08 [Yves_]
Felix: we want to get to LC
11:25:26 [Yves_]
.. and we have a January f2f where we want to address comments
11:26:01 [Yves_]
.. if we send this at start of December people would have time for commentd
11:27:04 [Yves_]
.. should we have a call in week of 26th for test/schema
11:27:30 [Yves_]
Jirka: not sure,depends on time I need to work on schema
11:27:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html Yves_
11:28:38 [fsasaki]
action: dom to make sure that schedule for test suite and schema update discussed at http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T11-27-30 is taken into account
11:28:38 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find dom. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/users>.
11:28:50 [fsasaki]
action: DomJones to make sure that schedule for test suite and schema update discussed at http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T11-27-30 is taken into account
11:28:50 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find DomJones. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/users>.
11:29:09 [fsasaki]
action: Dominic to make sure that schedule for test suite and schema update discussed at http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T11-27-30 is taken into account
11:29:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-268 - Make sure that schedule for test suite and schema update discussed at http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T11-27-30 is taken into account [on Dominic Jones - due 2012-11-08].
11:29:47 [Yves_]
Pedro: LQ precis could be LQ metrics
11:30:00 [Yves_]
dF: could bs LQ score
11:30:16 [Yves_]
felix: lunch now. back in one hours
11:32:42 [Milan_]
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11:47:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html Yves_
12:24:54 [leroy]
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12:42:29 [daveL]
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12:42:32 [daveL]
scribe: daveL
12:42:39 [daveL]
Topic: test suite
12:43:03 [daveL]
DomJones: breif overview of test suite
12:44:02 [DomJones]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgIk0-aoSKOadG5HQmJDT2EybWVvVC1VbnF5alN2S3c#gid=0
12:44:40 [dF]
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12:45:08 [daveL]
... looking at these tables there are some features that don't have two implementors
12:46:47 [daveL]
action: DomJones to ask Phil to confirm whether or not he will implement provenance
12:46:47 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find DomJones. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/users>.
12:47:20 [daveL]
Yves: not committing yet to provenance as it is not stable
12:48:13 [mhellwig]
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12:48:25 [daveL]
Dom: Yves just confirmed he will support disambiguation
12:50:32 [clemens]
clemens has joined #mlw-lt
12:50:51 [daveL]
Tadej: will implement text analysis annotation if it is stable
12:51:17 [daveL]
dF: seems to be too unstable, needs to be resolve in specification section
12:51:23 [tpacbot]
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12:51:49 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#EX-locQualityIssue-html5-local-1
12:52:00 [daveL]
Dom: quality issue is partially covered by two implementors, but different useages of using OKAPI is acceptable.
12:52:25 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#EX-locQualityIssue-html5-local-2
12:53:51 [daveL]
felix: quality has stand-off in script as well as in-line option. Do we want both, as these are not reflected in the test suite currently
12:54:37 [daveL]
... this choice has a lot of knock on for test suite
12:54:48 [daveL]
Yves: prefer the stand off in script over inline
12:55:40 [daveL]
action: Dave to check with Phil what his preference was between quality issue locally with inline and script-based stand off
12:55:40 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find Dave. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/users>.
12:55:55 [daveL]
action: daveL to check with Phil what his preference was between quality issue locally with inline and script-based stand off
12:55:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-269 - Check with Phil what his preference was between quality issue locally with inline and script-based stand off [on David Lewis - due 2012-11-08].
12:56:31 [daveL]
dF: the script based appraoch may still recieve negative reaction from the HMTL WG
12:57:38 [daveL]
Jirka: HTML WG will say to do this using microdata, but this doesn't work in this case
12:57:55 [DomJones]
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12:58:21 [daveL]
... HTML parsing consdere XML is script like it was CDATA
12:58:51 [daveL]
... but best way is the link to an external file
13:00:30 [daveL]
... or use XHMLT rather than HTML - which may not suite everyone
13:00:40 [fsasaki]
its-rules and its-standoff references?
13:01:08 [daveL]
Yves: the refernece for standoff mark-up could be an external file
13:01:44 [daveL]
felix: so in html would we have a separate link relation, in additon to its-rules, for such mark-up
13:02:22 [fsasaki]
felix: not sure if above is needed, just *one* solution
13:03:39 [daveL]
df: prefer a span-based inline solution, vs a standoff in a script
13:12:51 [daveL]
jirka: if using the inline version, rdfa or microdata would be better, but HTML WG has stabalised this choice enought for us to make a decision
13:13:57 [daveL]
felix: but to summarise, for cocomore/linguaserve, the script is better since propagation back to client can be controlled more clearly
13:18:01 [daveL]
... so there is slight preference for script solution in the room
13:19:30 [daveL]
Jirka: agrees it not a nice solution but the best we can manage given the problem of coexisitng between XML and HTML in general
13:20:54 [daveL]
felix: is there a volunteer to explore the use of external file for standoff
13:21:01 [daveL]
... back to test suite
13:21:32 [daveL]
DomJones: now have two implementers for quallity issues
13:22:15 [daveL]
... quality Precis, has only partial coverage from UL and vistaTEC
13:22:43 [daveL]
df: only interested if someone produces it
13:22:57 [Milan]
Milan has joined #mlw-lt
13:23:12 [daveL]
yves: there was interest from Des also in this
13:24:23 [daveL]
df: this seems still quite unstable, for example how valid is the value of the score without the (optional) tool info
13:24:41 [fsasaki]
action: felix to ask phil and des and arle about need and implementation committment for localization precis during next call
13:24:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-270 - Ask phil and des and arle about need and implementation committment for localization precis during next call [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-11-08].
13:25:18 [daveL]
dF: so this need more consideration especially about interpretation of score
13:27:52 [daveL]
felix: highlight the feature at risk in a draft, which allows us to cleanly remove after feature freeze - but not to change the feature
13:29:46 [daveL]
DomJones: mtconfidence and alloewed text
13:31:44 [daveL]
... have also been now supported with imeplmentation
13:32:11 [daveL]
DomJones: asks what language people are using
13:32:33 [daveL]
... repsonses from room, Java, Javascript, php
13:32:45 [daveL]
... so tcd will try and provide some test sample code
13:32:58 [daveL]
DomJones:
13:33:53 [daveL]
... aim to have an online tutoril to help people with coding the test suite
13:34:41 [daveL]
... suggest week 3rd December, suggest on Tuesday 4th december
13:34:54 [daveL]
yves: need to avoid XLIFF call 4pm GMT
13:35:45 [daveL]
DomJones: so aim for 2.30pm GMT, 3.30 central european time
13:35:50 [fsasaki]
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20121204T14
13:35:56 [DomJones]
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13:36:16 [daveL]
DomJones: we will record this anyway for epople who miss it
13:36:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
13:36:39 [fsasaki]
above wordclock link is the time of the webinar for the test suite
13:38:09 [daveL]
DomJones: now plan to switch to github for all the files and use google docs as index sheet and recording
13:38:49 [daveL]
Leroy: tst output will change to be tab delmited and order the output alphabetically as suggsted by Yves
13:39:46 [dF]
dF has joined #mlw-lt
13:40:20 [daveL]
... also use its as prefix in all cases
13:41:36 [daveL]
DomJones: when will files be frozen?
13:42:03 [daveL]
felix: after feature freeze, changes are unlikely, though external comment may require some changes.
13:42:26 [fsasaki]
its-term="yes" vs. its:term="yes"
13:42:35 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/2012/09/mlw-lt-charter.html
13:43:11 [daveL]
felix: according to charter, testing can continue until october, but we should aim to be completed by March
13:43:31 [Bert]
Bert has joined #mlw-lt
13:43:39 [fsasaki]
its-term="yes" vs. its:term="yes"
13:44:53 [daveL]
felix: clarification on prefixes in all cases is 'its:'
13:45:08 [daveL]
yves: could just drop prefix altogether
13:45:22 [daveL]
felix, leroy: agreed
13:48:54 [daveL]
DomJones: we will in new year work on making testing more accessible to implementors outside of the WG, as part of the general promotion of the of the spec and to encourage its uptake
13:52:31 [daveL]
felix: will there be some documentation on this
13:53:05 [daveL]
Leroy: yes there will be some in the github and on the web page
13:54:01 [daveL]
felix: will the test parser we made available
13:55:04 [daveL]
DomJone: yes will will release that later targetted at non working group members
13:57:04 [daveL]
rrsagent, generate minutes
13:57:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html daveL
13:57:08 [daveL]
rrsagent, generate minutes
13:57:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html daveL
13:57:34 [matthiasK]
matthiasK has joined #mlw-lt
13:57:47 [daveL]
Topic: CMS-TMS demo by linguaserv and cocomore
13:59:17 [daveL]
mhellwig: explains demo
13:59:24 [daveL]
... two use cases
13:59:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:00:02 [daveL]
... one where cleint have few locaslaition staff, so they needs tools to add its marks
14:00:25 [fsasaki]
s/cleint/client/
14:00:43 [daveL]
... second is where staff can enhance content with ITS, but can change the content directly - this is actually higher priority for client
14:01:27 [fsasaki]
scribe: fsasaki
14:01:37 [fsasaki]
karl: demo - editing content
14:01:47 [fsasaki]
.. in the body I can add the content and add metadata
14:02:19 [fsasaki]
.. demo shows clicking on content, then adding a localization note
14:02:49 [fsasaki]
.. also specifying concepts, e.g. disambiguation target
14:03:33 [fsasaki]
karl: can also mark content that should not be translated or only for certain languages
14:03:37 [fsasaki]
.. that is lcoale filter metadata
14:04:06 [fsasaki]
karl: now about global metadata
14:04:14 [fsasaki]
.. domain, revision agent, translation agent
14:04:26 [fsasaki]
.. can add translate rules
14:04:41 [fsasaki]
.. one field for the translate selector
14:05:02 [fsasaki]
.. we think about helping the users by helping with creating selectors
14:05:41 [fsasaki]
.. another example of outputing the content as only HTML(5)
14:06:08 [fsasaki]
.. this is one option of output, the other is the XML file that we have seen from Linguaserve before
14:06:39 [fsasaki]
.. now there is an example with checking the annotations:
14:07:21 [fsasaki]
.. one can see the page and click on data category buttons, then you can see the metadata available
14:07:31 [fsasaki]
.. we now press a button and send the data to linguaserve
14:08:23 [fsasaki]
(switching machines, now working with Linguaserve machine)
14:08:46 [fsasaki]
Mauricio: now demo environment, internal workflow interface
14:08:56 [fsasaki]
.. here we have received the file from Cocomore
14:09:25 [fsasaki]
.. it has information to transform the drupal XML file to CAT tool oriented files
14:10:09 [fsasaki]
.. now executed the preparational step
14:10:16 [fsasaki]
.. now simulating the translation of the file
14:10:34 [fsasaki]
.. assuming that the file has been translated now
14:10:55 [fsasaki]
.. setting simulation translation marks, will explain these later
14:11:12 [fsasaki]
.. the file is now ready to be downloaded by Cocomore
14:11:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html Yves_
14:11:41 [fsasaki]
pedro: we don't go into their servers - we act as a server
14:11:57 [fsasaki]
.. we don't go to the client's server
14:12:10 [fsasaki]
karl: now I am starting a manual crown job
14:12:19 [fsasaki]
.. to check if there are new translations
14:12:26 [Yves_]
s/crown/cron/
14:12:33 [fsasaki]
.. the crown job checks regularly if there are new translations
14:12:36 [Yves_]
s/crown/cron/
14:12:37 [fsasaki]
.. the user doesn't need to do anything
14:13:15 [fsasaki]
karl: issue with cron job is that drupal has cron jobs internally, so it takes some time until drupal gets to our cron job
14:13:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:13:26 [fsasaki]
(karl's machine loading)
14:14:35 [fsasaki]
karl: translation received
14:14:46 [fsasaki]
.. status changed from "in progress" to "needs review"
14:15:04 [Milan]
Milan has joined #mlw-lt
14:15:15 [fsasaki]
.. now looking at the spanish node
14:15:28 [fsasaki]
.. the language mgmt tab shows that all metadata is still here
14:15:39 [fsasaki]
.. there is also additional metadata: revision agent and translation agent
14:16:09 [fsasaki]
(demo continues with Mauricio's machine)
14:16:30 [fsasaki]
mauricio: now showing what happens with the XML file on our side
14:16:56 [fsasaki]
.. current page is linked from our use case description in the wiki
14:17:51 [fsasaki]
.. now looking at the XML file we saw before - 21_11_orig.xml
14:17:56 [fsasaki]
.. that we saw this morning
14:18:04 [fsasaki]
.. now pre-production step
14:18:36 [fsasaki]
.. in the log there is the XPath of the nodes, will be used for the test suite
14:18:56 [fsasaki]
.. currently there is only "translate" metadata test suite output in here, others will come later
14:19:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:19:28 [fsasaki]
mauricio: now cat-tool oriented XML file
14:19:51 [fsasaki]
.. in this file you have various information pieces, e.g. domain information that the translator will see
14:20:17 [fsasaki]
.. inside the translatable content there is some marks about parts that are not translatable
14:20:49 [fsasaki]
.. now showing a really translated file
14:21:06 [fsasaki]
.. now using this for the post-processing step
14:21:37 [fsasaki]
.. now you see the translators file in the original format of the client
14:21:50 [fsasaki]
.. what has changed: e.g. the "ready to process" in the readyness has changed
14:22:07 [fsasaki]
.. orignially it had four stages: hTranslate, ...
14:22:15 [fsasaki]
.. now the state is: publish
14:22:27 [fsasaki]
.. that means it can be published on the client side
14:22:47 [fsasaki]
.. the time stamp related to readyness also has changed
14:23:01 [fsasaki]
.. also we have now translation provenance information
14:23:20 [fsasaki]
.. local xml:lang attribute has changed from "de" to "es"
14:23:55 [fsasaki]
.. next showing what will happen with the XML that we used to transalte
14:24:02 [fsasaki]
s/transalte/translate/
14:25:11 [fsasaki]
mauricio: content part that was marked as "translate=no" is blocked so that the translators cannot change it
14:25:33 [fsasaki]
.. also storage size is part of the file
14:25:48 [fsasaki]
.. that is a file used in the transit translation tool
14:26:15 [fsasaki]
.. once the engine does post-processing, the storarge size will be applied
14:26:37 [fsasaki]
pedro: that is a simple way to allow the translator to control the number of characters that are possible
14:26:56 [fsasaki]
.. this is just one cat tool, but that can be done with other cat toosl as well
14:27:42 [fsasaki]
pedro: expansion of global rules has been done before, and will be done in post-processing
14:35:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:46:03 [Jirka]
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14:51:35 [Milan]
Milan has joined #mlw-lt
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14:56:46 [Ankit]
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15:06:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:07:39 [clemens]
clemens has joined #mlw-lt
15:08:18 [mdelolmo]
Provenance XPath selector value: Does the semantic combination between the Agent Provenance and Translate data category rules validate the regular expression for Provenance (//item)?
15:10:34 [mdelolmo]
<its:transProvRule selector="//item" transOrg="Linguaserve" transPerson="LSTranslator01" transRevOrg="Linguaserve" transRevPerson="LSRevisor02"/>
15:11:09 [mdelolmo]
<item id="18-body-0-format" its:allowedCharacters="." its:translate="no"><![CDATA[full_html]]></item>
15:14:41 [fsasaki]
discussion about interrelation between data categories
15:15:00 [fsasaki]
yves: you can imagine scenarios where tools would implement only one data category
15:15:27 [fsasaki]
.. would be better to have an XPath expression that only selects the relevant nodes for provenance
15:15:32 [fsasaki]
.. but that is probably marginal
15:18:52 [fsasaki]
topic: demo of online MT system
15:19:30 [fsasaki]
scribe: DomJOnes
15:20:07 [DomJones]
Pablo: Global use of domain, second domain, mixture of translate / domain.
15:20:21 [DomJones]
… sample is allways the same with different use of tags.
15:20:53 [DomJones]
… no ITS errors identified. Click translate, same page presented but translated.
15:21:21 [DomJones]
Pedro: Engine is supported by Lucy SW. Thomas absent, behind this is Lucy S/W.
15:21:39 [DomJones]
Pedro: Showing translate local
15:22:08 [DomJones]
… examples in source text. Tags (translate yes/no) are set randomly.
15:22:34 [DomJones]
… showing example of translation based on ITS tag (translate yes/no).
15:23:05 [DomJones]
… showing file sent to MT and returned result.
15:24:21 [DomJones]
… showing pre-mt file. Searches for "translate" tag, adds in meta-tag for translator to see translate = no in example shown.
15:24:49 [DomJones]
… goes to show source code of translated page, searches for "translate" tag, they are not found, they have been cleaned and removed from the text.
15:25:03 [DomJones]
Felix: so after translation, the translate tags are removed?
15:25:07 [DomJones]
yes.
15:25:41 [DomJones]
Pablo: Showing example with translate global rules. All nodes are translated but their children are not translatable.
15:26:50 [DomJones]
… shows example being translated. Nodes are translated, children are not. Showing the tags are being parsed correctly.
15:27:23 [DomJones]
Marcais: Are the whole spans (including those with translate = no) through translate system?
15:27:35 [DomJones]
Pablo: Yes, all tags are sent through MT
15:28:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:28:13 [DomJones]
Pedro: The reason is that beind the MT engine these can be the post-editors. The PE may need to seem them for contextual reasons. All data is sent to MT regardless of whether text is to be translated or not.
15:28:32 [DomJones]
Marcais: So its just kept as is in the translation (translate =no)
15:28:50 [DomJones]
Pablo: Yes. Shows the output that is translated and that which is not.
15:29:09 [DomJones]
… flicks between source code and webpage. Shows tags (translate) have been removed.
15:29:46 [Yves_]
Question: In the global rule it looks like the XPath expression have no namespace, so how they can work with HTML? Is that related to the issue you mentionned for Namespace in HTML5 earlier today?
15:30:09 [DomJones]
… shows domain example. Global rules declare domain. Tag, pointer, mapping.
15:30:37 [DomJones]
… multiple "economic" domain mappings are added.
15:30:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:30:55 [DomJones]
Pedro: These domains are needed by the MT engine.
15:31:22 [DomJones]
Pablo: shows the text being translated. Meta-data (domain) has been removed.
15:31:40 [DomJones]
… Shows global domain and a different engine based on the domain.
15:31:42 [Jirka]
Yves, you are right I was going to ask the same question.
15:32:14 [DomJones]
… same rule applies, but different engine is used.
15:32:43 [DomJones]
felix: asks a question from Yves and Jirka about domain rule…
15:33:05 [DomJones]
Jirka: Selector is not completely right for HTML5 where all elements are placed in HTML namespace.
15:33:22 [DomJones]
… I hope that this is not a final version, just a temporary one?
15:33:37 [DomJones]
Pablo: No problems, I'll change it. But will require some work.
15:33:48 [Fredrik]
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15:34:22 [DomJones]
Pablo: Shows another global rules element. Three different selector for elements wrt translate yes/no
15:34:33 [DomJones]
… different domain.
15:35:22 [DomJones]
… When we use domain meta-data we divide the document into different parts. What is sent to the MT engine is shown with tags in place and ITS domain mapping.
15:35:35 [DomJones]
… We divide the document into three parts.
15:35:56 [DomJones]
… we send three requests to the MT engine.
15:36:13 [DomJones]
… it takes longer to translate three as opposed to one,
15:37:18 [DomJones]
Pablo: Shows final example applying domain meta-data to different nodes. What is sent to the MT system has multiple domain tags added to it. When page is translated it takes a while…
15:38:02 [DomJones]
Pedro: This negativly effects the performance of the MT engine. We must take into account how the ITS usage adds to MT costs.
15:38:11 [DomJones]
Milan: How many requests to the MT engine?
15:38:18 [DomJones]
Pablo: around 15.
15:38:53 [DomJones]
David F: The overhead of multiple fragments depends on the impl of the MT. Some engines may perform better than others.
15:39:24 [DomJones]
Pedro: This is how it works, you can balance different engines etc, but this effects the price to the client.
15:39:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:39:51 [DomJones]
Pablo: as you can see a cache system is present for translation requests.
15:40:10 [DomJones]
Milan: Whatabout creating a file per domain and sending three requests, one for each file.
15:40:36 [DomJones]
Pablo: Maybe it can be done but its easier to send one file.
15:40:57 [DomJones]
Pedro: We are also using PEditors, we have to perform with a CAT standard system.
15:41:10 [DomJones]
Pablo: Showing caching system which results in faster performance.
15:41:33 [DomJones]
Pablo: Closes demo.
15:42:15 [DomJones]
Yves: a general comment about domain value, when we do mapping we dont mention Casing of the domain. Should they be case-sensitive? Should we edit the spec to show this?
15:42:26 [DomJones]
Felix: Are keywords case-sensitive in HTML?
15:42:40 [DomJones]
jirka: keyword values are case-sensitive.
15:42:41 [fsasaki]
present; Ankit Bert(partially) Dave David Dom DomJones Felix Fredrik JonasJacek Leroy Marcais Milan Moritz Naoto(partially) Pablo SebastianSk Tadej Yves Clemens jirka karl matthiasK mauricio mdelolmo mhellwig mhellwig pedro pnietoca renatb
15:43:27 [DomJones]
?: Maybe present in the algorithm, a lower case mapping
15:44:03 [DomJones]
action: Yves to add a step regarding the lowercasing of the domain data category
15:44:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-271 - Add a step regarding the lowercasing of the domain data category [on Yves Savourel - due 2012-11-08].
15:44:28 [DomJones]
david F: our general impl is insensitive to case sensitivity.
15:44:52 [DomJones]
… in contract with MT provider you may need to address this but not in our mapping.
15:45:14 [DomJones]
Yves: Does it mean the value we return is lowercase as well or should they stay as we get them?
15:45:24 [DomJones]
David F: should be lowercase
15:46:02 [fsasaki]
I assume "STEP 5: Return the resulting string." would be "STEP 5: lowercase the resulting string and return it."
15:47:04 [DomJones]
Marcis: general comment, on translation in general, whether to not send something through an MT system and whether it can be specified to be passed through MT engine or not. Sending a string through MT which is not translated could overload the MT speed. Q: Whether its possible to differentiate to send through an MT system and no translate or do not send through MT system.
15:47:54 [DomJones]
David Lewis: Problematic - locale filter allows you to not pass through MT for specific locales. What was being shown was stuff that was not MT'd as it was subsequently PE'd
15:48:11 [DomJones]
Marcis: Some things you do not want to translate, or passed through MT engine.
15:48:48 [DomJones]
Pedro: Very impl dependent. Depends on what behaviour you want. If something is not translated it matters for analysis of the translation.
15:49:05 [DomJones]
Marcis: If you know some text is important for MT and some is not can you handle both?
15:49:18 [DomJones]
Pedro: This is a problem with the Lucy MT provision.
15:50:09 [DomJones]
… Matrex SMT works with chucks of data, so maybe we can see whether there is an improvement but we dont know yet.
15:50:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:50:32 [trackbot]
trackbot has joined #mlw-lt
15:50:55 [DomJones]
Pedro: Different techniques are used but we need to know how SMT performs.
15:51:46 [DomJones]
David F: In ITS we have translate, term, disam which can all be combined to make a business case. But these problems are business issues between LSP and MT provided. We should not spend time on this discussion.
15:52:15 [DomJones]
Pedro: This is both true and false. We need to test various contracts between LSP and MT provider and this should be documented.
15:52:21 [DomJones]
David F: Agrees but not now.
15:54:21 [DomJones]
David L: Has no translte mark-up come up with your clients? Are they interested in this in terms of costs per words?
15:54:38 [DomJones]
Pedro: The business model of this contract is not based on that.
15:57:08 [pnietoca]
You can find the DEMO link here http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use_cases_-_high_level_summary#More_Information_and_Implementation_Status.2FIssues_7
15:57:25 [DomJones]
Felix: Showing screen. 30mins to go, would like to take Bert's presence here to ITS 1.0 uses XPATH 2.0 uses extraction. Shows example of translate data cat, which can be used globally with absolute selectors. 2 subjects, 1: defining selector, 2: using CSS selector at level 3. Think this is the right thing to do based on discussions with Bert. Might be various selectors only relevant to CSS for XPATH.
15:57:43 [pnietoca]
and here https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Online_MT_Systems_Use_Case_Demonstration#Use_Case_Demonstration
15:58:15 [pnietoca]
might be down sometimes depending on the developing
15:58:32 [DomJones]
… shows a rule example where node is selected based on evaluated expression with parameter. Having the CSS selector is easier for developers who may not know CSS in detail.
15:59:07 [DomJones]
… we dont have anyone who has yet said they would implement CSS selectors. This is feature-risk as no implementor yet avaliable.
15:59:41 [DomJones]
… however during break bert said people are working on CSS selectors to XPATH. We could say we support a translation mechanism from CSS selectors to Xpath. CSS level 3.
15:59:51 [DomJones]
Jirka: I thought this was already done?
16:00:12 [DomJones]
… the code should exist.
16:00:43 [DomJones]
Felix: The developer implemented in python, people are working with other frameworks. Wanted to bring this up while bert is here.
16:01:14 [DomJones]
… nice to have mechaism to use CSS selector and this to be translated in XPATH. Is this something to specifiy in the Spec, do we point people to libaries etc?
16:01:37 [DomJones]
Dave L: If there was mapping from CSS to XPATH do we not need to mention CSS as part of the normative spec?
16:02:00 [DomJones]
Felix: If mapping could be part of the spec without being used directly it would be good.
16:02:40 [DomJones]
Cocomore?: people are maybe more familiar with CSS selector so would be better to allow users to use CSS selectors. makes more sense if these classes can be selected more easily.
16:02:48 [DomJones]
Felix: There is a use-case
16:03:02 [DomJones]
… any other thoughts on this?
16:03:16 [mhellwig]
s/Cocomore?/kfritsche
16:03:17 [DomJones]
Jirka: Is someone working on in-browser implementation.
16:03:57 [DomJones]
Yves: I think so as some impl are using CSS. If we go the CSS path what does it change for the test cases? Do we need 2 test-cases for both XPATH and CSS?
16:04:08 [DomJones]
Dave L: This question has been asked before.
16:04:19 [DomJones]
David F: Doubling the test-suite.
16:04:43 [DomJones]
Felix: Just a conversion step, conversion test-case.
16:05:05 [DomJones]
… other option is we drop the support for CSS selectors. 1) Full direct support, 2) convergence support or 3) we drop it
16:05:16 [DomJones]
Jirka: Who asked for this?
16:05:32 [DomJones]
Milan: Maybe it was Phil R?
16:05:58 [DomJones]
Dave L: Interoperability is help full in passing file from one system to another.
16:06:18 [DomJones]
Felix: Another solution: Dont change anything in the spec, not make it a feature and see if it can be done in an impl
16:06:31 [DomJones]
… we would not formally specifiy this step.
16:06:45 [DomJones]
… define the functionality without using it formally.
16:07:02 [DomJones]
Jirka: keep CSS with reserved word for query language.
16:07:30 [DomJones]
Felix: If we dont change anything we put this feature at risk, see if someone comes up with solution next year.
16:07:52 [DomJones]
David L: Increases volume of test suite but maybe not the implementation work
16:08:29 [DomJones]
Bert: You can only select elements and not attributes..
16:08:58 [DomJones]
Jirka: So CSS test cases would be smaller. In CSS the selector is not case sensitive. HTML not case sensitive, XML would be.
16:09:31 [DomJones]
…Some algorithm to transform CSS to XPATH would not be easy as case vs. case-insensitive problem.
16:09:38 [DomJones]
Felix: For XML there is no strong use-case
16:09:44 [DomJones]
… only for thsoe using HTML
16:10:28 [DomJones]
Bert: There is no official mapping but everything but the pseudo elements can be mapped to XPATH.
16:10:37 [DomJones]
Jirka: It depends on user-interaction
16:11:00 [DomJones]
David L: Therefore these things may need to be removed.
16:11:29 [DomJones]
Jirka: No these user-interactions will never be applicable
16:12:23 [DomJones]
Felix: For the time being no conclusion on this issue but if we dont change anything and no-one impl it may cause an issue. We need to mark this as a feature at risk.
16:12:46 [DomJones]
David F: For people to understand the commitment they are making this should be mapped onto the google spreadsheet.
16:12:58 [DomJones]
Felix: I will take an action to explain this and see take-up
16:13:31 [DomJones]
… this is an opportunity to recruit more rule authors who can use CSS selectors as opposed to learning XPATH.
16:13:32 [fsasaki]
action: felix to make sure that css selectors are marked as feature at risk in the draft, and explain the rational in a mail
16:13:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-272 - Make sure that css selectors are marked as feature at risk in the draft, and explain the rational in a mail [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-11-08].
16:15:04 [DomJones]
Felix: Topics you want for the agenda tomorrow.
16:15:51 [DomJones]
… we have joint meeting with HTML, planning for next year, XML Prague for example. Last workshop in Nov, plans for 2014
16:16:11 [DomJones]
… editorial discussions for specification.
16:16:32 [DomJones]
… please see doodle poll for a few more people to commit to editing meetings.
16:16:35 [fsasaki]
http://doodle.com/heh7k59h7vkvnv88
16:16:50 [DomJones]
Jirka: Will the next meeting be in Prague?
16:17:00 [DomJones]
Felix: Yes, 23th, 24th of January.
16:17:50 [DomJones]
Felix: Any other topics? Issues?
16:18:53 [DomJones]
David F: XLIFF mapping task-force meeting should happen this week. We said we'd circulate this yesterday but we didn't. Can we schedule for tomorrow? Propose 4pm French time.
16:18:59 [DomJones]
… 3 pm
16:20:12 [DomJones]
Felix: 2-3pm free time tomorrow for implementation discussions.
16:20:42 [DomJones]
Jirka: Who will go at 9am to joint meeting with HTML?
16:20:47 [DomJones]
Felix: Hope all with join.
16:21:06 [DomJones]
… 9am we meet with the HTML group for 30 mins.
16:22:43 [DomJones]
Felix: I have asked for a review from the HTML WG on the section on HTML and ITS written by Jirka. Wanted to ask Frederick a demo which Yves gave in Prague. People see what happens to the HTML.
16:22:55 [DomJones]
… would be good to have a 5-10 min demo.
16:23:00 [DomJones]
Jirka: Closer to 5min
16:23:19 [DomJones]
… @felix do you have examples of HTML markup in your slideS?
16:23:24 [DomJones]
Felix: Yes I do.
16:24:06 [DomJones]
Jirka: Should also show HTML validator for the WG. Simple, example driven presentation.
16:24:21 [DomJones]
Jirka: Our goal is to get a commitment to get a review from them.
16:24:37 [DomJones]
Felix: Looking for a commitment for a contact
16:25:56 [DomJones]
Tadej: Plan to discuss tool-info data category tomorrow, would be helpful. I would have some comments on this, if we could discuss before lunch.
16:26:24 [DomJones]
Felix: 2 big topics, tool-info (issue 41) too many global rules (issue 51) others are smaller.
16:26:59 [DomJones]
Felix: So we meet at 8.30 tomorrow here and at 9 we go to the other room
16:27:30 [DomJones]
Felix: Closes the meeting.
16:28:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
16:37:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
16:37:32 [fsasaki]
rrsagent, bye
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
I see 18 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-actions.rdf :
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: felix to follow-up on discussion about regular expression for allowed characters, see http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-mlw-minutes.html#item02 [1]
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T07-30-11
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: pedro to write note about allowed characters issue with help from Mauricio and karl - due 8. November [2]
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T09-04-33
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: implying some its:rules in html tags [3]
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T09-23-20
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: david to summarize the options and the recommendations related to HTML parsing workflow in the CMS, see discussion at http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T10-13-41 [4]
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T10-13-59
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: dfilip to summarize the options and the recommendations related to HTML parsing workflow in the CMS, see discussion at http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T10-13-41 [5]
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T10-14-11
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: thomas to follow up on domain list topic with DCU [6]
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T10-22-56
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: daveL to react to decision on extensibility for mrk in XLIFF and the result for our "pointer" attributes [7]
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T10-51-12
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: felix to edit disambig example [8]
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T10-58-53
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: felix to try to simplify disambiguation globally [9]
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T11-01-14
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: dom to make sure that schedule for test suite and schema update discussed at http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T11-27-30 is taken into account [10]
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T11-28-38
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DomJones to make sure that schedule for test suite and schema update discussed at http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T11-27-30 is taken into account [11]
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T11-28-50
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Dominic to make sure that schedule for test suite and schema update discussed at http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T11-27-30 is taken into account [12]
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T11-29-09
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DomJones to ask Phil to confirm whether or not he will implement provenance [13]
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T12-46-47
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Dave to check with Phil what his preference was between quality issue locally with inline and script-based stand off [14]
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T12-55-40
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: daveL to check with Phil what his preference was between quality issue locally with inline and script-based stand off [15]
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T12-55-55
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: felix to ask phil and des and arle about need and implementation committment for localization precis during next call [16]
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T13-24-41
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Yves to add a step regarding the lowercasing of the domain data category [17]
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T15-44-03
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: felix to make sure that css selectors are marked as feature at risk in the draft, and explain the rational in a mail [18]
16:37:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T16-13-32