IRC log of html-wg on 2012-11-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

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[13html] 15rubys pushed 2 new commits to 06feature/whatwg: 02
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13html/06feature/whatwg 1417cedfa 15ianh: [giow] (1) Prevent a race condition between <video onerror> and <body onload>...
00:09:16 [gitbot]
13html/06feature/whatwg 14fcca364 15ianh: [e] (0) Clarify that 'directionality' applies to all elements....
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[13html] 15rubys pushed 1 new commit to 06feature/whatwg: 02
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13html/06feature/whatwg 1442cafdc 15ianh: [e] (0) Match Selectors terminology better...
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07:46:36 [paulc]
zakim, what is the code?
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07:47:35 [paulc]
zakim, what is the code?
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07:48:56 [paulc]
F2F agenda topics:
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07:58:31 [adrianba]
zakim, this is HTML_WG
07:58:31 [Zakim]
"HTML_WG" matches HTML_WG()4:00AM, and HTML_WG(HTML2)4:00AM, adrianba
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07:58:48 [paulc]
zakim, call rhone_3
07:58:48 [Zakim]
sorry, paulc, I don't know what conference this is
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07:59:21 [krisk]
what conference is this?
07:59:21 [adrianba]
zakim, this is HTML_WG()
07:59:21 [Zakim]
adrianba, I see HTML_WG()4:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be HTML_WG()".
07:59:31 [matt]
zakim, this will be html_wg()
07:59:31 [Zakim]
ok, matt; I see HTML_WG()4:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
07:59:35 [matt]
zakim, call rhone_3
07:59:35 [Zakim]
ok, matt; the call is being made
07:59:36 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()4:00AM has now started
07:59:37 [Zakim]
08:00:12 [Zakim]
08:00:13 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()4:00AM has ended
08:00:13 [Zakim]
Attendees were Rhone_3
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08:00:34 [matt]
zakim, who is on the phone?
08:00:34 [matt]
zakim, call rhone_3
08:00:34 [Zakim]
apparently HTML_WG()4:00AM has ended, matt
08:00:35 [Zakim]
ok, matt; the call is being made
08:00:35 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Cyril, MikeSmith, tantek, Takahiro, Shinji, Magnus_Olsson, matt, sakkuru, rubys, glenn, dsinger, a12u, krisk, Zakim, adrianba, paulc, acolwell, pal, markw__, ddorwin,
08:00:35 [Zakim]
... Joshue108, cabanier, MartinSoukup, dveditz, icaaq, hao_, silvia
08:00:35 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()4:00AM has now started
08:00:36 [Zakim]
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08:01:50 [Arnaud]
Present+ Arnaud_Braud
08:02:22 [Zakim]
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08:03:56 [krisk]
present+ kris_krueger
08:04:14 [krisk]
who os here?
08:04:18 [krisk]
who is here?
08:04:27 [plh]
present+ Philippe Le Hegaret
08:04:27 [adrianba]
Present+ Adrian_Bateman
08:04:33 [krisk]
zakim, who is here
08:04:33 [Zakim]
krisk, you need to end that query with '?'
08:04:36 [krisk]
zakim, who is here?
08:04:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Rhone_3, Cynthia_Shelly
08:04:37 [Zakim]
On IRC I see darobin, Yune, Arnaud, edoyle, giuseppe, plh, Cyril, MikeSmith, tantek, Takahiro, Shinji, Magnus_Olsson, matt, sakkuru, rubys, glenn, dsinger, a12u, krisk, Zakim,
08:04:37 [Zakim]
... adrianba, paulc, acolwell, pal, markw__, ddorwin, Joshue108, cabanier
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08:05:03 [krisk]
is the link to the wiki for Face to Face topics
08:05:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate plh
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08:05:32 [plh]
Meeting: HTML
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present+ Erika_Doyle_Navara
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08:07:06 [plh]
Chair: Paul
08:07:19 [plh]
regrets+ Sam
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regrets- Sam
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plh has changed the topic to: HTML f2f - Rhone 3
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08:11:24 [matt]
Present+ Matt
08:11:30 [Wonsuk]
Present+ Wonsuk__Lee
08:11:30 [jgraham]
present+ jgraham
08:11:34 [MikeSmith]
Present+ MikeSmith
08:11:36 [pal]
Present+ pal
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present+ hober
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Present+ MartinSoukup
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Present+ Marcos
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Present+ ddorwin
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present+ acolwell
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present+ r12a
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Present+ glenn
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present+ Magnus_Olsson
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Present+ yoav_
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Present+ fwtnb
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present+ johnsimmons
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present+ markw__
08:11:59 [wiltzius]
Present+ wiltzius
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present+ hBang
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present+ Stevef
08:12:05 [JonathanJ1]
Present+ Jonathan_Jeon
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present+ dan_romascanu
08:12:08 [ethan]
Present+ Yi-Jen
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scribe: Matt
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08:13:38 [matt]
-> HTML Topics wiki
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08:13:49 [matt]
paulc: Let's scan down the wiki, see what's on the list of topics.
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08:15:16 [matt]
paulc: We're in Rhone 3. We also have Rhone 2. We'll see if we need it. We've arranged a separate IRC channel and call-in number for rhone 2.
08:15:30 [matt]
paulc: At the end of this session, I'd like to have all the TBDs filled in.
08:15:49 [matt]
paulc: I'm not sure if anyone other than Cynthia would like to join, but let's get this updated.
08:16:02 [matt]
paulc: I'd like to see the minutes posted on the wiki from the sessions.
08:16:22 [matt]
paulc: Coffee breaks are 10:30-11:30, so we'll break at 11. We could break earlier.
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08:16:47 [matt]
paulc: And 3-4 in the afternoon. We'll have to decide when we look at the agenda how long each of the two days go.
08:17:11 [matt]
paulc: Break 3:30 and then a 90 minute session until 6:00.
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08:18:45 [matt]
paulc: Topics: Email list organization, several bugs, four tracker requests, alt guidance and alt text, multilingual web group coordination (I talked to Felix and suggested tomorrow morning 9-9:30), i18n (30m slot next to multilingual if possible)
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08:19:05 [matt]
paulc: Review of outstanding bugs for i18n
08:19:12 [matt]
darobin: We do have a few bugs left, have to discuss them and move forward.
08:19:24 [matt]
paulc: Please get the bug numbers and update them in the wiki.
08:20:44 [matt]
paulc: Media task force has been meeting on alternating Tuesdays. Encrypted Media Extension and the Media Source Extensions. Both have come with a detailed list of bugs on these proposals. The WG hasn't approved the proposals as FPWDs, but the plan would be to make as much progress as possible to flatten many of these bugs and get closer to a FPWD.
08:21:08 [matt]
plh: I'd like to know the timeline for EME and MSE.
08:21:37 [matt]
paulc: The WG needs to be rechartered and Plan 2014 has a timeline for 5.1 and 5.2, but if the charter could give a proposed timeline for EME and MSE, that would make the charter that much more complete when it goes to the AC.
08:21:49 [matt]
[[+1 to discussing timeline for EME and MSE]]
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08:22:17 [matt]
paulc: Responsive image extension specs, this has been requested for day 1. There are people here for that that won't be here tomorrow.
08:22:34 [matt]
paulc: The EME and MSE would take up most of the afternoon, so there might be a natural ordering here.
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08:23:02 [matt]
paulc: Evolving AppCache discussions in WebApps. They've suggested they might want to take over that work.
08:23:14 [matt]
paulc: Maincontent element extension spec.
08:23:34 [matt]
paulc: Completing ISSUE-204?
08:23:45 [cjones]
cjones - present
08:23:51 [matt]
??: @@bugs@@
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08:24:07 [hober]
08:24:26 [matt]
paulc: Next item is working group status. I sent the report that mjs, sruby, plh and I worked on for the AC.
08:24:37 [hober]
s/@@bugs@@/there are several interrelated bugs on the hidden="" section, which we'll probably address all at once/
08:24:40 [matt]
paulc: Could look at that and discuss what would happen in the draft charter. I don't expect this item to be big.
08:25:01 [matt]
paulc: Preparing for CR, already sent a draft to Director.
08:25:19 [matt]
paulc: Features at Risk, go over them, determine consensus amongst people in the room that we have the list correct or if there are items missing.
08:25:33 [matt]
paulc: We already have consensus on the CR exit criteria.
08:25:45 [matt]
paulc: Status of the CR WDs, will we see them before this meeting is over?
08:25:58 [matt]
darobin: We do have CR drafts, have some changes like exit date and get them checked by people.
08:26:20 [matt]
paulc: Chairs want to get to CR as quickly as possible. plh has a sharp stick in our ribs.
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08:26:51 [matt]
paulc: Want to discuss these topics and know how quickly and when we can do a call for consensus on two remaining items to get to CR: items at risk and ??.
08:27:04 [matt]
paulc: There's an item on HTML 5.1 planning, with proposed new elements
08:27:09 [matt]
MikeSmith: I've got a list that needs updating.
08:27:29 [matt]
paulc: And then the status of the 5.1 WDs. We'll want editors drafts started at least after CR. And we need to discuss FPWD schedule for 5.1
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08:27:40 [matt]
paulc: Any additions to the list?
08:28:10 [matt]
MichaelC: I added to the wiki HTML 5 accessibility techniques. If anyone is interested in joining the Task Force, let me know.
08:28:15 [matt]
paulc: Any other topics?
08:28:34 [matt]
paulc: None.
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08:30:32 [matt]
paulc: Proposal 1: I've already seen interest in the media stuff.
08:30:32 [matt]
matt: There's also the people from the Web and TV IG who are interested and not here (at AC, or not interested in rest of agenda).
08:30:32 [matt]
paulc: Let's do that in the afternoon then in two slots.
08:31:09 [matt]
paulc: Break from 10:30 to 11. Lunch is at 12:30-2.
08:31:22 [matt]
paulc: 2-3:30 then break from 3:30 until 4.
08:31:35 [matt]
paulc: And the last session is from 4 until 5:30 plus or minus.
08:31:51 [matt]
paulc: Media folks, which session will be longer? EME or MSE?
08:32:14 [matt]
adrianba: I suspect we have enough things to fill both of them, but I don't imagine we'll get through everything.
08:32:19 [matt]
paulc: We can put them in any order then.
08:32:50 [matt]
paulc: I believe everyone involved in these would like to meet tomorrow to take the results of this meeting and move the specs along.
08:33:23 [matt]
paulc: We have two requests to meet tomorrow morning: multilingual web at 9 and i18n at 9:30.
08:34:22 [matt]
paulc: The responsive images folks had a request for today. I suggest we do that after coffee this morning.
08:34:45 [matt]
paulc: I believe our CR discussion is important.
08:35:17 [matt]
paulc: Let's do that tomorrow.
08:35:22 [matt]
matt: Friday afternoon people start leaving.
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08:35:48 [matt]
paulc: Everyone put up their hand if here at noon, 3, 4… looks pretty good for the afternoon for quorum.
08:36:22 [matt]
paulc: Is that sixty minutes to do CR plh?
08:36:28 [matt]
plh: Including features at risk? More than 60 minutes.
08:37:00 [matt]
paulc: What about testing?
08:37:11 [matt]
paulc: It'd be good to have a report on testing.
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08:37:53 [matt]
Chris: There's been talk about the repository and combining it all together. Another item on how to publish test results, that's part of the 2014 Plan.
08:37:57 [matt]
paulc: Less than an hour?
08:38:02 [matt]
Chris: An hour is a safe bet.
08:38:20 [matt]
paulc: Let's put status item along with CR item together.
08:38:39 [matt]
paulc: And we should talk about schedule for EME and MSE in that session so we can say tomorrow the schedule.
08:38:57 [matt]
paulc: What else is really important to get on the agenda?
08:39:23 [matt]
Josh: The accessibility task force is meeting upstairs, please get in touch with me if you want to get involved.
08:39:40 [matt]
paulc: Looking to the floor for nominations of the next important item.
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08:40:30 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
08:40:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
08:40:32 [matt]
adrianba: I don't think it'll be a long discussion, but the future of AppCache.
08:40:32 [matt]
paulc: Art? Do you have restrictions on being here?
08:40:32 [matt]
ArtB: I might be here tomorrow morning for a few hours.
08:40:32 [matt]
paulc: 30 minute slot tomorrow morning for AppCache does that work?
08:40:33 [matt]
adrianba: Works.
08:41:02 [matt]
??: HTTP request generation and enhancement. It'd be good to discuss with browser vendors in the room and get ext spec written with normative requirements.
08:41:10 [matt]
08:41:34 [matt]
paulc: Cameron, you won't be here tomorrow afternoon, so let's see what we have.
08:41:42 [matt]
paulc: Let's look at the 2nd day in the morning.
08:42:23 [matt]
ArtB: I'm not sure I'm critical path for the AppCache discussion
08:42:35 [matt]
henri?: We need a lot of time for that.
08:42:53 [matt]
paulc: There may be a lot of overlap, but this group needs to express it's opinion.
08:43:04 [matt]
mjs: We should survey this room to see if we need to have a longer session at all.
08:43:22 [matt]
paulc: Let's do AppCache immediately after coffee and put ISSUE-195 into this slot.
08:43:44 [matt]
cameron: Let's recap on the AppCache thing too.
08:43:58 [matt]
s/after coffee/before coffee/
08:44:12 [matt]
paulc: That'll open the slot in the main room for Cameron.
08:44:29 [matt]
paulc: Nominees for other important items? We still haven't put testing anywhere?
08:44:34 [matt]
Chris: Can we do that tomorrow?
08:44:54 [matt]
paulc: OK, large room? So far we've been surviving with the one large room. Should we squeeze the agenda to keep us in one room?
08:45:02 [matt]
MikeSmith: Best to have everyone in the same room if we can.
08:45:30 [matt]
paulc: Testing for an hour in the 14:00-15:00 slot tomorrow.
08:45:48 [matt]
paulc: Lots of bugs in the wiki and ISSUE-204 as well. Anyone in the room want to nominate a particular item off the wiki to fill in the remaining slots?
08:46:32 [matt]
Cameron: Two bugs about client-side localization are important for HTML 5 and I think there's a misunderstanding about the use of language tags and they are in spec for HTML5, and well, the whole issue of client-side localization is moving forward and it'd be good to discuss that.
08:46:52 [matt]
paulc: Could we collapse that into that session?
08:46:53 [matt]
Cameron: Yes.
08:47:02 [matt]
paulc: Let's add these two bugs to that session.
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08:47:21 [matt]
r12a: We have a few other bugs besides that, and about 15 minutes for the item I want to present at 10. It's getting a little full.
08:47:31 [matt]
paulc: How many bugs?
08:47:36 [matt]
r12a: 16 bugs.
08:47:42 [matt]
r12a: Not sure we'll go through all of those.
08:47:45 [matt]
darobin: Some may be quick.
08:47:53 [matt]
paulc: Can someone send a list of those bugs to public-html before that session?
08:47:57 [matt]
darobin: They're on the wiki.
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08:48:22 [matt]
paulc: The status of these are all bugs in the 130 post LC process?
08:48:27 [matt]
darobin: Unless I missed it, yes.
08:49:05 [matt]
paulc: The editor's since July/August have been working on the post-LC bug queue, those that came after the LC date ended. There were 490 of those bugs. Dropped to 460/450 after spam. The editorial team has been attacking that bug list as aggressively as possible.
08:49:16 [matt]
paulc: Now it's about 130.
08:49:24 [plh]
08:49:24 [plh]
=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0= 136 bugs
08:49:27 [matt]
paulc: 136 outstanding bugs. That's a living list.
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08:50:32 [matt]
-> bug list
08:50:57 [matt]
paulc: We need more time tomorrow morning. Let's free up half an hour off responsive images and make it 11-12 and 12-12:30 do Cameron's item
08:51:16 [matt]
paulc: No objections in the room.
08:51:18 [matt]
08:51:18 [trackbot]
ISSUE-195 -- Enhance http request generation from forms -- open
08:51:18 [trackbot]
08:51:35 [matt]
paulc: Nomination for last two slots on Friday afternoon?
08:51:48 [matt]
paulc: We have a bunch of FPWD requests and accessibility items.
08:51:57 [matt]
plh: ???
08:52:01 [matt]
paulc: That's a media issue.
08:52:09 [matt]
paulc: One of the media groups, can't remember which --
08:52:12 [matt]
??: MSE
08:52:27 [matt]
paulc: MSE were scratching their heads on how IDs work in the video and audio elements. They filed bugs on the main spec.
08:52:35 [Cyril]
s/???/what about the bug 18971 Text track should have an id/
08:52:48 [matt]
paulc: And they have more dependent on that bug. Let's have a session of miscellaneous bugs and put the most popular ones in that session.
08:52:53 [matt]
plh: When?
08:53:01 [matt]
paulc: Friday afternoon.
08:53:13 [matt]
??: I don't expect the discussion to take long on track ID, maybe ten minutes.
08:53:31 [matt]
plh: What about XML stylesheet?
08:53:33 [Cyril]
08:54:01 [matt]
??: Use first of five or ten minutes of MSE session that bug.
08:54:05 [matt]
paulc: That's a good way to handle it.
08:54:12 [Cyril]
08:54:38 [matt]
paulc: Let's put 14689 and ISSUE-204 in there.
08:54:59 [matt]
paulc: I want ISSUE-204 to have discussion as we've taken it off the list of formal objections.
08:55:15 [matt]
darobin: There's also the XML stylesheet thing from XML core. Probably requires 5-10 minutes.
08:55:31 [matt]
paulc: Ted, ISSUE-204, is 10-15 good?
08:55:33 [matt]
Ted: Yes.
08:55:48 [matt]
paulc: Put ten minutes into ISSUE-204 --
08:56:00 [matt]
plh: Can we do that before preparing for CR?
08:56:11 [matt]
paulc: All the formal objections have been withdrawn. I just want to ensure they don't reappar.
08:56:26 [matt]
paulc: Tracker requests, put it under misc bugs.
08:56:39 [SungOk_You_]
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08:56:49 [matt]
-> Tracker Requests
08:57:15 [matt]
paulc: These are bugs that the filer has disagreed with the disposition. They're all post-LC bugs that have been unresolved.
08:57:21 [matt]
mjs: There are still 4 tracker requests
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08:57:42 [matt]
mjs: The bugs might align with other topics, such as add an adaptive image element.
08:58:01 [matt]
mjs: The bug is someone objecting to the extension spec approach. Maybe we should combine that with the responsive images discussion.
08:58:08 [matt]
mjs: It's bug 18384.
08:58:27 [hober]
08:58:29 [matt]
-> Add an adaptive image mechanism
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08:58:46 [matt]
glen: ?? scoped stylesheets??
08:58:51 [adrianba]
i/scribe: Matt/Topic: Organization/
08:58:59 [adrianba]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:58:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate adrianba
08:59:19 [matt]
mjs: I think we're waiting for a bug to specifically identify the bug and hopefully the editor's will resolve it to their satisfaction. The previous bug didn't seem to address CSS-WGs latest concerns about scoped stylesheets.
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09:00:32 [matt]
paulc: mjs and I went to the CSSWG meeting (pre-coffee!!!) and there was some concern about some features in HTML 5 that at CR would be inadequately specced. One was scoped stylesheets and another maybe?
09:00:46 [matt]
mjs: There was some discussion of pseudo-class elements, but we agreed that wasn't an issue and I believe scoped stylesheets are the only concern. And the scoped stylesheets discussion was still being discussed as being at risk or not.
09:01:22 [matt]
paulc: If you remove features from your CR you can't go to PR without doing another LCWD. But, if you identify features at risk, don't achieve interop on those features, you can go to PR.
09:01:38 [matt]
paulc: There is some danger of not getting the features at risk done.
09:01:42 [mjs]
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09:01:57 [matt]
paulc: If we mark it at risk the CSS WG might be okay with that.
09:02:00 [matt]
plh: I believe so.
09:02:13 [matt]
paulc: Looking at the other tracker requests, one was a feature request for a better drag and drop model.
09:02:19 [matt]
09:02:29 [matt]
mjs: That might be interesting for the next HTML.
09:02:56 [matt]
paulc: Tobie Langel wants to complain about the current drag and drop model and he asked for time on it. But he didn't update the wiki.
09:03:29 [matt]
paulc: We added the item to the list. Should we keep 4:30-5 for overflow?
09:03:40 [matt]
paulc: Can we put 5.1 planning under CR?
09:03:41 [matt]
plh: Sure.
09:03:55 [matt]
paulc: Let's do that. darobin and the poor editorial team, we ask for heartbeats and CR drafts and now 5.1 drafts.
09:04:13 [matt]
darobin: XML Core confirmed to show for stylesheet discussion.
09:04:53 [matt]
Steve_Faulkner: These last two items: alt guidance is important and maincontent element is just a five minute thing.
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09:05:25 [matt]
paulc: Put those in the last slot, categorize as FPWD request.
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09:05:46 [matt]
SteveF: Are the appropriate people going to be around for the alt-guidance stuff going to be around?
09:06:14 [matt]
Cynthia: I'll be there late Friday.
09:06:29 [matt]
paulc: Let's try to get Michael available. Are the editor's going to be leaving before the last slot?
09:06:34 [matt]
paulc: All editors will be here.
09:06:59 [matt]
paulc: We might have to overflow into the last session.
09:07:09 [matt]
paulc: Looks like everyone wants to stay in this room for everything.
09:07:58 [matt]
ArtB: I just got pinged that I have to go to the AC meeting, can we do the AppCache thing real quick?
09:08:26 [matt]
Topic: Evolving AppCache
09:08:37 [ArtB]
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09:09:32 [darobin]
09:09:36 [darobin]
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09:10:46 [matt]
ArtB: 8 said WebApps WG, 1 said (darobin) HTML and another had strong preference for a coordination group.
09:10:53 [matt]
ArtB: I sent a mail summarizing what I just said.
09:11:19 [ArtB]
WebApps' minutes:
09:11:20 [matt]
paulc: For historical purposes: the HTML WG has devolved itself of some responsibilities in the past. mjs or adrianba have a view of what ArtB just said?
09:11:24 [tomoyuki]
s/coordination group/community group/
09:11:35 [darobin] -> Art's email
09:11:54 [matt]
paulc: Anyone in HTML reject Art's request on giving the responsibility of AppCache to WebApps?
09:12:05 [matt]
paulc: No objections.
09:12:17 [plh]
Present+ Art_Barstow
09:12:24 [matt]
darobin: If it moves to WebApps I would like to know if we should pull it from the spec and if WebApps wants to do a delta-spec?
09:12:31 [matt]
paulc: Delta-spec meaning extension?
09:12:52 [matt]
darobin: There are multiple options: fix it by monkey-patching it or remove it from HTML5 and let WebApps sort it out.
09:13:00 [mjs]
09:13:03 [matt]
paulc: Which spec? Marking it at risk in the CR or removing it from the CR?
09:13:11 [matt]
darobin: Removing it in this case.
09:13:11 [plh]
09:13:27 [plh]
q+ Art
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09:13:39 [matt]
mjs: Speaking as an implementer, I'd prefer not to remove it from the spec as it has multiple interoperable impls and has content already. It'd do a disservice for it to remove it.
09:13:49 [matt]
mjs: Extensions don't have to just be patches or deltas, but can completely replace parts of the spec.
09:13:54 [plh]
q+ James
09:14:07 [mjs]
ack mjs
09:14:07 [matt]
mjs: Dropping it does a disservice to everyone.
09:15:15 [matt]
adrianba: A few comments: 1. the way that AppCache is embedded in the spec in multiple places and is hard to remove, which is a problem as we missed some of the pieces of AppCache as it was in places we didn't expect. 2. During the discussions that I've seen minutes of with...
09:15:54 [matt]
adrianba: various different people proposing fixing AppCache there's a general consensus that the current implementations of what's in the spec, and that there's content out there, we should make sure to extend or enhance it so that existing content still works. It needs to stay somewhere.
09:16:07 [plh]
ack plh
09:16:08 [matt]
plh: Since we don't have another specification we shouldn't remove it, but mark it at risk I am okay with that.
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09:16:09 [plh]
ack Art
09:16:25 [matt]
ArtB: I agree with plh. Leave in, mark at risk. I'll push the WG for someone to start the real work.
09:16:28 [matt]
09:17:09 [plh]
ack James
09:17:21 [matt]
James: Inevitably AppCache is an inherent part of the doc loading process and so I don't object to us moving it out, but if we do it in a separate spec we need to coordinate strongly with it to have hooks.
09:17:49 [matt]
paulc: I didn't hear objection to moving AppCache to WebApps, but did hear objections to removing it from our doc. Also heard people supporting marking it at as a Feature at Risk.
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09:18:24 [matt]
paulc: And if the WebApps WG can move so quickly that it could satisfy us for CR and didn't break existing content perhaps, that by the time we exit CR we could remove it and point as James just said to a spec that would be invoked during the document loading process.
09:18:44 [adrianba]
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09:19:09 [matt]
paulc: ArtB when we generate our minutes, I'll do what you did: respond to your email with decision of HTML WG and then it sounds like it's something we need to coordinate at the progress level so we know what progress your group is making.
09:19:15 [MikeSmith]
09:19:40 [matt]
adrianba: Quick question: ArtB do you believe it is necessary for WebApps to recharter for this work?
09:19:53 [matt]
ArtB: plh asked that same question. I'd have to look at the charter, but my guess would be yes.
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09:20:32 [matt]
euro: Yes.
09:20:32 [matt]
paulc: Break time early!
09:20:32 [matt]
paulc: Who will volunteer to scribe for the next session?
09:20:32 [adrianba]
09:20:47 [hbang]
rrsagent, generate minutes
09:20:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hbang
09:20:52 [darobin]
"Specifically, because of the close relationship of the WebApps WG and the HTML WG in terms of participants, market, and community, the WebApps WG may opt to take on a limited number of specifications which were initially part of the HTML5 specification that have been split off for more general use with other languages. Consistent with W3C process, an Advisory Committee Review will evaluate whether the additional deliverable should be added to t
09:20:52 [darobin]
he WebApps WG charter. The expectation is that if the review is successful, Working Group participants will not be required to re-join the Working Group. For any work transferred to the WebApps WG, the first draft published in the WebApps WG is considered the first public Working Draft for application of the Patent Policy exclusion rules."
09:20:54 [matt]
paulc: Chris volunteers to scribe. Break now.
09:20:57 [krisk]
I can scribe the next sessions
09:20:58 [matt]
09:21:00 [matt]
09:21:03 [Zakim]
09:21:13 [plh]
09:21:21 [matt]
zakim, drop rhone_3
09:21:21 [Zakim]
Rhone_3 is being disconnected
09:21:23 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()4:00AM has ended
09:21:23 [Zakim]
Attendees were Rhone_3, Cynthia_Shelly
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09:51:07 [tomoyuki]
Present+ Tomoyuki_Shimizu
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10:02:13 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()4:00AM has now started
10:02:20 [Zakim]
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10:03:41 [krisk]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
10:03:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Cynthia_Shelly
10:03:55 [kenji]
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10:04:11 [krisk]
Zakim, call rhone_3
10:04:11 [Zakim]
ok, krisk; the call is being made
10:04:13 [Zakim]
10:04:40 [krisk]
scribe: krisk
10:04:50 [krisk]
We are about to get started on the responsive images
10:05:00 [mjs]
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10:05:21 [krisk]
mjs: see the pasted in link above
10:05:28 [mjs]
10:05:40 [mjs]
10:05:43 [krisk]
mjs: two drafts for the use cases
10:06:00 [ddorwin]
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10:06:05 [krisk]
mjs: their could be some convergence for these use cases
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10:06:31 [krisk]
mjs: would anyone like to chat about these?
10:06:36 [LeonieWatson]
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10:07:19 [krisk]
marcos: I can walk room through the use cases
10:07:23 [Marcos]
10:07:32 [krisk]
group looking at the deck from marcos
10:08:09 [sgodard]
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10:08:25 [sgodard]
Present+ sgodard
10:08:29 [krisk]
marcos: background had a hard time dealing with high res devices
10:08:51 [ddorwin1]
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10:08:51 [a12u]
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10:09:13 [krisk]
marcos: got more organized and started a CG
10:09:15 [markw]
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10:09:20 [krisk]
CG == community group
10:09:22 [markw]
#join #ac rhone
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10:09:37 [krisk]
marcos: from the feedback we started to create use cases
10:10:05 [krisk]
marcos: we have also started to think about a new element, but this is not the primary use case
10:10:18 [krisk]
marcos: 'ART DIRECTION' is the primary use case
10:10:40 [krisk]
marcos: 'DESIGN BREAKPOINTS' is the secondary use case
10:10:52 [krisk]
see the slides
10:10:53 [wiltzius]
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10:11:41 [krisk]
targets getting the right image for the right size and can potentially save bandwitdth
10:11:55 [krisk]
10:12:43 [krisk]
marcos: printing has much, much larger DPI (1000 vs 96), images and text is a problem
10:13:06 [krisk]
Now on the media types and features
10:13:08 [krisk]
10:13:51 [cyns]
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10:13:56 [cyns]
10:13:57 [krisk]
marcos: another use case is orientation
10:14:15 [krisk]
...for a device
10:14:34 [krisk]
marcos: another use case is relative units
10:14:44 [sburr]
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10:15:27 [krisk]
marcos: zooming in on a page or section of the page, can result in a bad image next 2 clear text
10:15:34 [Wonsuk]
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10:16:04 [krisk]
marcos: need apis to switch media sources on the fly (e.g. canvas, webrtc)
10:16:13 [krisk] image formats are coming...
10:16:25 [krisk]
...jpeg2000, Web_, JPEG-XR
10:16:42 [krisk]
...very hard for web devs to do this w/o hacks (like ua sniffing)
10:17:19 [krisk] platform would benifit alot since the new formats can have a significant bandwidth saving (30%)
10:18:02 [krisk]
..'match image sources with media queries - upate the source of an image automatically'
10:18:18 [krisk]
..'no server-side processing'
10:18:39 [krisk]
..'automatic fallback to legacy useragents'
10:18:50 [krisk]
...'simple api'
10:19:00 [krisk]
'what is the current source'
10:19:10 [krisk]
'what media is attached'
10:19:28 [jens]
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10:19:36 [krisk] on the breakpoint friendly slie (7)
10:19:56 [krisk]
..finally the requirement needs ot be poly-fillable
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10:20:38 [krisk]
shelly: have we though about high contrast use cases
10:21:05 [cyns]
10:21:11 [krisk]
marcos: we thought about, but looked at stuff that is online today
10:21:34 [krisk]
cyns: the above link is how w instruct people to address high contrast
10:21:35 [cyns]
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10:21:37 [cyns]
10:21:54 [krisk]
marcos: we need to provide a who and where to make it a use case
10:22:06 [krisk]
cyns: I'll send you some who and where for your use cases
10:22:13 [krisk]
marcos: here is our solution!
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10:22:19 [krisk]
marcos: may or may not...
10:22:23 [hsivonen]
need to compare that design with epub night reading mode design
10:22:38 [krisk]
...the picture element
10:22:50 [krisk]
...see the picture element slide
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10:23:22 [krisk]
marcos: it looks alot like the html5 video element, multiple sources and fallback
10:23:36 [hsivonen]
so get rid of prefixes!
10:23:36 [krisk]
marcos: though vendor prefixing gets really messy
10:23:39 [abarsto]
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10:23:57 [krisk]
..we also have fallback text for accessibility
10:24:07 [krisk]
marcos: showing a live demo of this in action
10:24:47 [krisk]
???: private chromium build with a private patch
10:25:10 [krisk]
marcos: showing source of the page
10:25:18 [hober]
10:25:18 [hsivonen]
yoav weiss
10:26:02 [krisk]
yoav: you can see as the browser is resized the network trace shows getting the right image automatically
10:26:05 [MichaelC]
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10:27:13 [krisk]
yoav: see how image is prefetched before css in network trace
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10:28:07 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
10:28:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
10:28:12 [krisk]
yoav: we may need to reconsider how the fallback image gets downloaded...which is not needed and bad for perf
10:28:57 [krisk]
marcos: it does have some trade-offs, it does work...maybe not ideal but does solve some real issues
10:29:19 [krisk]
marcos: moving on to the srcset attribute
10:29:30 [kotakagi]
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10:29:48 [krisk]
see ROUND-1 fight slide comparing srcset vs picture element
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10:31:19 [krisk]
marocs: srcset would need an api to complete the use case
10:31:45 [Stevef]
paulc: re timing of alt and main element discussions, apogies I relaized after that my flight was earlier than i thought, so need to leave TPAC at 4, requesting that the disucssion be moved to an ealrier time slot
10:31:55 [krisk]
marcos: it's not trivial to do the parsing - it would be better to have a DOMTokenList (which is how classlist works)
10:33:03 [krisk]
marcos: so one path would be to combine srcset and picture element
10:33:28 [krisk]
marocs: result is less code
10:33:50 [krisk]
marcos: can we have a mailing list?
10:34:16 [krisk]
the html mailing list is too much
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10:34:24 [adrianba]
10:34:31 [krisk]
marcos: questions?
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10:34:34 [SimonPieters]
10:34:55 [hsivonen]
10:34:55 [krisk]
pal: have you looked at CSS for solutions?
10:35:16 [pal]
10:35:25 [krisk]
marcos: using css it's possible, but you can't use the image element must use divs
10:35:55 [pal]
10:36:03 [krisk]
yoav: css doesn't change alot, unlike image/content
10:36:10 [Zakim]
10:36:33 [krisk]
mjs: is it possible for someone to talk about srcset?
10:36:52 [Stevef]
zakim, ??P2 is SteveF
10:36:52 [Zakim]
+SteveF; got it
10:36:56 [krisk]
mjs: it seems odd that the 'round 1 -flight' only have red checks for srcset
10:37:10 [krisk]
hober: will talk about srcset
10:37:21 [adrianba]
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10:37:31 [hsivonen]
10:37:39 [adrianba]
rrsagent, make minutes
10:37:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate adrianba
10:38:01 [krisk]
hober: we are not designing a feature in isolation
10:38:14 [krisk]
hober: for example, css, svg, etc...
10:38:20 [krisk]
hober: two use cases...
10:38:27 [adrianba]
i/scribe: krisk/Topic: Responsive Images/
10:38:32 [adrianba]
rrsagent, make minutes
10:38:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate adrianba
10:38:32 [krisk] is clipping and image
10:39:15 [krisk]
..the motivation is to get the right image loaded taking into account for size and bandwidth
10:39:55 [krisk]
..part of the design for srcset, the ua can pick the right asset
10:40:04 [krisk]
..that can save bandwidth
10:40:15 [adrianba]
s/who os here?//
10:40:27 [adrianba]
s/who is here?//
10:40:57 [krisk]
hober: multiple elements is complex and though we do this for audio/video
10:41:13 [krisk]
...they didn't exist. Unlike the image element
10:41:22 [adrianba]
s/??: MSE/acolwell: MSE/
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10:42:24 [adrianba]
s/#join #ac rhone//
10:42:39 [krisk]
hober: if consider picking an image on pixel density, it's quite appealing to use srcset
10:42:50 [adrianba]
s/ new/
10:42:55 [krisk]
looking at round 1 flight slide
10:43:36 [adrianba]
rrsagent, make minutes
10:43:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate adrianba
10:44:01 [krisk]
marcos: do people like the current syntax for srcset? how do we deal with this conflict
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10:44:21 [Cyril]
10:44:43 [krisk]
marcos: some people are quite concerned with ems -> 1, 2, 3 times
10:45:13 [krisk]
marocs: not bad, maybe just a educational problem..since it's a bit differenet?
10:45:22 [krisk]
marcos: can we work together to make this better?
10:45:37 [krisk]
hober: of course
10:45:46 [adrianba]
10:46:03 [krisk]
hober: a change to the syntax could be made and I'm happy to listen to suggestions
10:46:28 [bjkim]
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10:47:02 [krisk]
marcos: is it possble to makes an image load in srcset? for example for a web author needs to be force the image being loaded to test
10:47:17 [krisk]
hober: you could just remove the srcset and then test
10:47:37 [krisk]
yoav: one comment on vw/vh
10:48:08 [krisk]
yoav: zoom designs doesn't impact the view port pixles
10:48:45 [krisk]
hsivonen: if you zoom in on a desktop browser, indeed pixel change
10:49:06 [krisk] only need ems when the UA has the base font size not equal to 16
10:49:22 [krisk]
..1 em == 16px
10:50:10 [krisk]
..part of the design of srcset is because site compat depends upon 1 em == 16px
10:50:17 [tantek]
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10:51:18 [krisk]
mjs: I don't thing you'll find a browser that doesn't change one vs the other (em, pixle)
10:51:33 [krisk] the user stylesheet is the only case
10:51:37 [darobin]
10:51:46 [hober]
10:51:55 [krisk]
cyns you are on the q
10:52:06 [adrianba]
10:52:08 [krisk]
10:52:08 [cabanier]
10:52:09 [darobin]
ack Cyril
10:52:12 [adrianba]
ack next
10:52:12 [darobin]
ack SimonPieters
10:52:26 [SimonPieters]
"new" technique that seems to solve the "retina" use case with just one image that has smaller file size than a "normal" image:
10:52:35 [paulc]
rrsagent, generate minutes
10:52:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate paulc
10:52:44 [darobin]
q+ Cyril
10:52:51 [krisk]
simonpieters: see link
10:54:00 [krisk]
...when you zoom in base vs retina would solve some of the use cases
10:54:38 [hober]
q+ mjs
10:54:39 [a12u]
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10:54:44 [hober]
ack hsivonen
10:55:09 [krisk]
hsivonen: three comments on the original presentation
10:55:44 [krisk]
...wondering about the grey scale graph, color sentitive photos vs charts?
10:56:05 [krisk]
..we already have svg and media queries which is a better way to do this already
10:56:34 [krisk]
..another point is new image formats, adding new image formats should not be take lightly
10:56:53 [jet]
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10:56:58 [krisk]
..the addition to the ecosystem is very costly and has a long, long life and attack surface
10:57:31 [SimonPieters]
10:57:59 [krisk]
..maybe I am wrong...but I recall a site like facebook had lots of jpgs that were not compresed to the max
10:58:40 [Wonsuk]
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10:58:43 [adrianba]
s/..maybe/... maybe/
10:58:56 [krisk]
..given the size of the site and number of jpgs on their site. It might be better to push on the jpg decoder rather than switch to a new format
10:58:56 [adrianba]
s/..we/... we/
10:59:04 [adrianba]
s/..another/... another/
10:59:16 [adrianba]
s/..the addition/... the addition/
10:59:35 [krisk]
..we may find arithmatic jpg encoding could be used as well
10:59:36 [adrianba]
s/..given/... given/
11:00:00 [jgraham]
I just ran the experiment on arithmetic encoding, and it seems that browsers don't support it
11:00:27 [krisk]
marcos: first comment on svg, not very many tools or used to create svg
11:00:48 [krisk]
mjs: adobe supports this...
11:01:05 [paulc]
11:01:13 [cyns]
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11:01:19 [krisk]
marcos: not widely available and costs alot, even inkscape though free is not great
11:01:31 [tobie]
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11:01:32 [krisk]
mjs: we need to get back to the q
11:02:01 [krisk]
marcos: we have smaller cdn's that would use this so facebook may not be the best example
11:02:13 [hsivonen]
11:02:15 [yoav_]
q+ yoav_
11:02:18 [hober]
11:02:27 [hober]
ack cabanier
11:02:51 [krisk]
cabnier: their is no reason why the img tag could not have other attributes
11:03:09 [hober]
ack Cyril
11:03:15 [krisk]
cabnier: what happens on older browsers, with the image and p tags?
11:03:38 [hbang]
rrsagent, make minutes
11:03:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hbang
11:03:47 [krisk]
cyril: he we are talking about content switching and we should have a way to combine content and css
11:04:03 [krisk]
cyri: file size seems like a good pivot
11:04:12 [krisk]
11:04:42 [krisk]
cyril: seems like this should work with video, for example streaming video
11:04:59 [krisk]
cyril: in svg we are looking at a simalar issue
11:05:29 [krisk]
cyril: how do we do make sure we do less http requests, though this doesn't seem to address
11:05:37 [hober]
ack mjs
11:06:42 [krisk]
mjs: The early example was intresting, but what about pngs that are used for UI?
11:07:02 [hober]
ack SimonPieters
11:07:04 [mdahlstrand]
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11:07:11 [adrianba]
zakim, close queue
11:07:11 [Zakim]
ok, adrianba, the speaker queue is closed
11:07:12 [darobin]
Zakim, close the queue
11:07:13 [Zakim]
ok, darobin, the speaker queue is closed
11:07:14 [krisk]
mjs: since my experience alot of UI is not jpgs and is pngs
11:08:16 [SimonPieters] (214K) vs (198K)
11:08:17 [masinter]
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11:08:37 [krisk]
simonpieters: seems like we need more research for logos and I agree with hsivonen on push the jpg encoder
11:08:49 [hober]
ack paulc
11:08:54 [krisk]
see the jpgs samples above
11:09:27 [krisk]
paulc: I want to switch away from the technical discussion and talk about how to move these proposals forward
11:10:10 [krisk]
paulc: though we didn't make a session for lists discussion and we should revisit since new items have a requirement for new lists
11:10:29 [krisk] are we going to move these forward?
11:10:51 [hober]
ack hsivonen
11:10:52 [krisk]
paulc: do we just need to find a location and then move on...
11:10:54 [Marcos]
11:11:04 [krisk]
hsivonen: comment on svg
11:11:31 [a12u]
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11:11:33 [krisk]
...the usage share for browsers that support is at 81% vs 0% for addaptive images
11:11:54 [Takahiro]
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11:12:02 [krisk]
..we should just svg since it's useable and not add a new item format
11:12:29 [krisk]
..if their are bugs (snap to pixels) then we should get the bugs fixed (perf, etc..)
11:13:18 [krisk]
..for tools most logos come from vector based editiors
11:13:52 [krisk]
..we should be pushing for svg rather than add a new format
11:13:54 [hober]
ack yoav_
11:14:06 [krisk]
marcos: we are not throwing svg under the bus, we love svg
11:14:39 [krisk]
yoav: comment on jpg decoder...
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11:15:38 [krisk]
..yoav: people are actively working on jpg encoder and I don't think browsers support aritmatic encoders
11:15:50 [krisk]
hsivonen: you are correct
11:16:18 [krisk]
yoav: no alpha channel exists and thus pngs are used
11:16:53 [krisk]
hsivonen: that is not good reason
11:17:07 [hober]
11:17:12 [krisk]
yoav: we may want to give future image format a chance
11:17:13 [hober]
ack hober
11:17:38 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
11:17:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
11:18:10 [krisk]
hober: the comment on choosing an asset is works well using css+media query via clipping
11:18:23 [krisk]
...and you don't end up with another http request
11:18:34 [krisk]
hober: so you don't need either
11:19:14 [krisk]
mjs: I encourage people to continue this discussion on the list and paul and myself will look to get the list issue resolved
11:19:21 [hbang]
rrsagent, make minutes
11:19:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hbang
11:19:36 [adrianba]
zakim, open queue
11:19:36 [Zakim]
ok, adrianba, the speaker queue is open
11:19:39 [adrianba]
Topic: Issue 195: Enhance HTTP request generation from forms
11:20:11 [krisk]
next discusson: Isssue 195
11:20:23 [krisk]
11:21:20 [hsivonen]
DELETE requested across the Web? really?
11:21:26 [krisk]
cabanier: the changes involved is to add more HTTP enhancements beyond GET/POST
11:21:46 [krisk]
cabanier: we are proposing to say you can't use ADD or DELETE
11:21:57 [krisk]
cabanier: it's a black list
11:22:37 [krisk]
cabanier: add a new element to the form, payload
11:22:48 [MikeSmith]
11:23:02 [krisk]
..payload would have three new control terms
11:23:21 [krisk]
could bind to query string, http request header and body (like post)
11:23:30 [MikeSmith]
s/member:cabanier: the changes /cjones; the changes/
11:23:46 [krisk] also enables a form to manipulate the query string, body and header.
11:23:46 [MikeSmith]
s/cabanier: the changes /cjones; the changes/
11:23:50 [paulc]
11:23:52 [krisk]
..this doesn't impact xforms
11:23:56 [SimonPieters]
11:24:01 [krisk]
..this is just an addition
11:24:18 [MikeSmith]
s/cabanier: we are proposing/cjones: we are proposing/
11:24:25 [krisk]
...we are also wanting to add two new form control fields
11:24:31 [paulc]
Change proposal pro ISSUE-195:
11:24:45 [MikeSmith]
s/cabanier: it's a black list/cjones: it's a black list/
11:24:46 [krisk]
The three are
11:24:53 [paulc]
Counter proposal from Ted:
11:24:53 [krisk]
11:25:27 [krisk]
...used for auth and can work with http auth directly (just like XHR)
11:25:49 [krisk]
..just want to provide this in static html
11:26:23 [krisk]
..another is a 'logout' attribute, since we adding auth we should add this as well
11:26:42 [MikeSmith]
11:26:42 [krisk]
..expects server to do the work
11:27:32 [krisk]
..we have a proposal that we have been working on and will be looking to create an extension spec and get this integrated into the lifecycle of HTML5
11:28:02 [krisk]
..we'll have an extension spec by the end of the year
11:28:20 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
11:28:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
11:28:30 [krisk]
ack paulc
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11:29:24 [krisk]
paulc: hober counter proposal to ISSUE 195 was that this was too late
11:29:39 [krisk]
paulc: this is a good test for extension spec
11:29:56 [krisk]
hober: I think the extension spec could be used
11:30:14 [sicking]
11:30:26 [krisk]
hober: I recall gecko had support of this and it was pulled, can someone comment on this?
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11:30:39 [MikeSmith]
s/cabanier: the changes involved/cjones: the changes involved/
11:30:44 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
11:30:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
11:31:16 [krisk]
simonpieters: the proposal enables new things that go over the wire, has security implication be reviewed?
11:31:24 [krisk] legacy applications
11:32:09 [krisk]
cabanier: this is all available today in XHR so their should be no additional security issues
11:32:41 [mjs]
q+ to talk about security
11:32:43 [Zakim]
11:33:19 [Zakim]
11:33:21 [krisk]
simonpieters: I disagree, many sites apply blacklist approaches
11:33:29 [krisk]
11:33:33 [paulc]
zakim, who is on the phone
11:33:33 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', paulc
11:33:56 [Stevef]
zakim [IPcaller] is me
11:33:59 [paulc]
zakim, who is on the phone?
11:33:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Cynthia_Shelly, Rhone_3, [IPcaller]
11:34:35 [krisk]
sicking: commenting about gecko..
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11:34:42 [SimonPieters]
ack SimonPieters
11:35:05 [krisk]
...I was not involved specifically, though we are trying to get away of password
11:35:21 [jgraham]
ack sicking
11:35:25 [krisk]
...since passwords have problems and want to have a ID
11:35:38 [cjones]
11:35:58 [krisk]
..we would like to move to crypto tokens and not investing in user/passwords, since crypto is better
11:36:05 [hober]
ack mjs
11:36:05 [Zakim]
mjs, you wanted to talk about security
11:36:45 [krisk]
mjs: XHR has been on same origin until CORS
11:37:31 [hober]
ack krisk
11:37:32 [krisk]'s not simple as saying XHR is safe:
11:37:51 [hsivonen]
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11:38:21 [hober]
ack cjones
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11:39:21 [Marcos]
11:39:28 [krisk]
cabanier: this stuff was added for UAs that has not CORS support, etc..
11:39:54 [krisk] just about basic html
11:41:03 [Marcos]
11:41:12 [krisk]
..cabanier: going back to the gecko bug, it initially didn't have some headers which made PUSH DELETE verbs useless
11:41:59 [krisk]
cjones: redirects were not being handled which also impacted XHR
11:42:04 [hober]
ack hsivonen
11:42:45 [krisk]
hsivonen: during the intro was that this was requested alot on the web, which I don't believe is true.
11:43:07 [krisk] we have any data that indicates this is really a key need for this feature
11:43:47 [krisk]
hsivonen: what is the actualy implementation environement since XHR is available all over
11:44:08 [krisk]
..seems odd to favor a user agent or environment that doesn't have XHR
11:44:20 [krisk]
cjones: the web should be able to work without javascript support
11:44:30 [jgraham]
11:44:39 [krisk]
..the intrest comes from about every 6 months on public html
11:44:58 [krisk]
..stackoverflow or other programing sites this comes up alot...
11:45:17 [krisk]
..php supports this and may other backend solutions as well
11:45:35 [krisk]
cjones: once they don't find this they stop looking...
11:46:11 [krisk]
hsivonen: why did people stop and not use XHR?
11:46:23 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
11:46:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
11:46:59 [krisk]
cjones: SGML-based template solutions are what people are using
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11:47:53 [hober]
11:47:57 [hober]
ack jgraham
11:48:04 [krisk]
jgraham: it may not really implementable by a browser, from what I heard today browsers vendors would not be happy about implementing.
11:48:25 [hbang]
rrsagent, generate minutes
11:48:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hbang
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11:48:31 [Zakim]
11:48:34 [yoav_]
hsivonen - This is the "em based MQ" technique I was referring to in the responsive images session
11:48:35 [krisk]
sorry cjones/cabanier about the mixup
11:48:40 [Zakim]
11:48:59 [krisk]
This session is over, we'll start again in 1:12 minutes
11:49:00 [yoav_]
11:49:00 [krisk]
RRSAgent, make minutes
11:49:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate krisk
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11:51:02 [Zakim]
11:51:04 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()4:00AM has ended
11:51:04 [Zakim]
Attendees were Cynthia_Shelly, Rhone_3, SteveF, [IPcaller]
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12:49:56 [matt]
Chair: Paul_Cotton
12:49:56 [matt]
12:50:11 [matt]
Meeting: HTML WG TPAC F2F Day 1
12:50:13 [paulc]
Present+1 Paul Cotton
12:50:15 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:50:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt
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12:52:26 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:52:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt
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12:56:19 [krisk]
present+ krisk
12:56:27 [krisk]
present+ kris_krueger
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12:59:42 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()4:00AM has now started
12:59:48 [Zakim]
13:00:03 [matt]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:00:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [IPcaller]
13:00:03 [glenn]
zakim, who's on the phone?
13:00:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [IPcaller]
13:00:13 [matt]
zakim, dial rhone_3
13:00:13 [Zakim]
ok, matt; the call is being made
13:00:15 [Zakim]
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13:00:32 [matt]
zakim, IPcaller is Steve
13:00:32 [Zakim]
+Steve; got it
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13:00:54 [nkic]
present+ /me
13:01:10 [glenn]
scribenick: glenn
13:01:17 [yoav_]
present +yoav_
13:01:19 [glenn]
present+ glenn
13:01:24 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:01:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt
13:01:27 [Cyril]
present+ Cyril
13:01:32 [yamaday]
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13:01:36 [yoav_]
present+ yoav_
13:01:38 [Stevef]
present+ SteveF
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13:01:50 [nkic]
present+ nkic
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13:02:19 [glenn]
paulc: 2-3:30pm session: MSE, HTML5 Bug 18971
13:02:28 [glenn]
... coffee break 3-4pm
13:02:30 [SungOk_You___]
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13:02:42 [glenn]
... 2nd session 4-5:30pm perhaps longer
13:02:49 [glenn]
... have room til 1800
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13:03:01 [nsakai]
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13:03:06 [glenn]
paulc: MSE - media source extensions
13:03:11 [glenn]
... and ED, not yet FPWD
13:03:22 [glenn]
... under development of media TF since May F2F
13:03:38 [glenn]
... tuesday morning telcons alternate between MSE/EME
13:03:49 [matt]
-> MSE Bugs
13:03:51 [ddorwin]
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13:03:52 [paulc]
13:04:03 [glenn]
... see link above
13:04:12 [MartinSoukup]
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13:04:14 [glenn]
... this format will drive discussion
13:04:24 [glenn]
... bugs are rows in this table with status
13:04:31 [cabanier]
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13:04:36 [Johnsimmons]
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13:04:42 [glenn]
... needsinfo means don't understand
13:04:46 [rubylin]
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13:04:47 [Magnus_Olsson]
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13:04:52 [Johnsimmons]
present +Johnsimmons
13:04:57 [glenn]
... wontfix ... eds believe no problem, or reporter doesn't understand spec
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13:05:06 [Magnus_Olsson]
present+ Magnus_Olsson
13:05:08 [Joshue108]
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13:05:17 [glenn]
... 2nd list of bugs categorized as new feature
13:05:20 [MikeSmith]
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13:05:22 [glenn]
13:05:23 [SimonPieters]
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13:05:29 [glenn]
... 11 new features
13:05:36 [glenn]
... may run out of time
13:05:40 [kotakagi]
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13:05:41 [fdenoual]
fdenoual has joined #html-wg
13:05:54 [gaiaphj]
gaiaphj has joined #html-wg
13:05:59 [dsinger]
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13:06:06 [glenn]
... acolwell, how would you like to proceed?
13:06:10 [Yongrok]
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13:06:32 [glenn]
acolwell: 17002
13:06:44 [matt]
-> Bug 17002 - Specify a mechanism to determine which SourceBuffer an AudioTrack,VideoTrack, or TextTrack belong to.
13:06:45 [ddorwin1]
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13:06:56 [takuya]
takuya has joined #html-wg
13:07:02 [MikeSmith]
infobot inform plh radio check
13:07:06 [matt]
-> MSE Bug summary
13:07:08 [hiroki]
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13:07:15 [edoyle]
edoyle has joined #html-wg
13:07:23 [matt]
s/infobot inform plh radio check//
13:07:33 [paulc]
mse bug:
13:07:44 [tinkster]
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13:07:47 [glenn]
acolwell: bug 17002 - desire to take track on elt and figure which source buffers assoc witih it
13:07:52 [glenn]
... proposal to use ID on track
13:08:15 [glenn]
... looking at existing track intfcs, found text track doesn't have ID
13:08:16 [Mark_Vickers]
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13:08:19 [wilhelm]
wilhelm has joined #html-wg
13:08:27 [Juhani]
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13:08:28 [rotsuya]
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13:08:31 [glenn]
... i.e., needs @id on track element
13:08:46 [shige]
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13:08:47 [glenn]
... are folks OK with adding to make consistent with A/V tracks?
13:08:48 [plh]
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13:09:26 [glenn]
paulc: reads bug description
13:09:45 [glenn]
... any q/c? on this proposal?
13:09:50 [plh]
13:10:00 [matt]
-> Bug 18971 - TextTrack should have an id attribute
13:10:19 [gilesg-b]
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13:10:28 [glenn]
plh: asks how one gets track?
13:10:50 [masinter]
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13:10:52 [glenn]
... see 4.8.9 defines HTMLTrackElement
13:11:02 [matt]
-> Track Element
13:11:16 [plh]
13:11:31 [seo_]
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13:12:09 [matt]
-> video element
13:12:09 [glenn]
13:12:29 [glenn]
travis: HTMLTrackElement has ID, but TrackElement does not
13:12:37 [tantek]
so this is the trackid
13:12:38 [glenn]
plh: tnx
13:12:45 [Zakim]
13:13:12 [SimonPieters]
s/but TrackElement/but TextTrack/
13:13:23 [glenn]
travis: some concerns in WebRTC to maintain consistency
13:13:44 [SimonPieters]
13:14:00 [SimonPieters]
ack plh
13:14:10 [dsinger]
seems like it shouldn't make a difference to script whether I supply a multiplex including the text track (e.g. an MP4 file) or a separate <track> element containing it. In multiplexes all tracks have IDs, in the latter case we need them to also.
13:14:33 [hbang]
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13:14:57 [hbang]
rrsagent, generate minutes
13:14:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hbang
13:14:58 [plh]
13:15:04 [dveditz]
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13:15:15 [glenn]
glenn: asks if name to use would be 'id' same as name of property on HTMLTextElement
13:15:18 [glenn]
acolwell: yes
13:15:24 [glenn]
glenn: probably confusing for authors
13:15:29 [abarsto]
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13:15:45 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
13:15:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
13:15:53 [glenn]
dsinger: ... [scribe missed]
13:15:53 [wiltzius]
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13:16:11 [glenn]
paulc: MSE eds should work with HTML5 eds to get this into HTML5
13:16:38 [SimonPieters]
13:16:39 [glenn]
... will have some issues with layering back into 5.0
13:16:40 [Marcos]
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13:16:51 [glenn]
13:16:52 [leetv3]
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13:17:09 [dveditz_]
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13:17:23 [glenn]
paulc: travis will propose solution to 17002
13:17:23 [sgodard]
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13:17:34 [seo_]
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13:17:51 [glenn]
paulc: hope to publish 5.1 WD as soon as possible
13:18:15 [glenn]
robin: est ~2wks
13:18:28 [glenn]
acolwell: should 5.1 spec be refd in general from MSE?
13:18:33 [Marcos]
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13:18:34 [ohsumi]
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13:18:46 [leetv]
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13:18:54 [glenn]
paulc: suggests it is possible to define @id in MSE itself
13:18:54 [darobin]
s/est ~2wks/est ~2wks before the CfC/
13:19:00 [SimonPieters]
13:19:04 [glenn]
13:19:32 [matt]
13:19:37 [matt]
ack Simon
13:20:23 [glenn]
simonpieters: objects to having MSE define, but prefers defining in 5.1 itself
13:20:56 [glenn]
paulc: this would delay moving MSE forward to 2016 if it has norm ref to 5.1
13:21:23 [glenn]
simonpieters: notes that this isn't necessarily a barrier
13:21:30 [glenn]
paulc: depends on how stable refd spec is
13:21:53 [glenn]
ACTION to paulc Figure out how Extension specs can refer to 5.1
13:21:53 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find to. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
13:22:10 [glenn]
Action paulc: Figure out how extension specs can refer to HTML 5.1
13:22:10 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-223 - Figure out how extension specs can refer to HTML 5.1 [on Paul Cotton - due 2012-11-08].
13:22:25 [sylvain]
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13:23:38 [glenn]
acolwell: 18960
13:23:56 [paulc]
13:23:56 [matt]
-> Bug 18960 - Define how & are generated
13:23:59 [glenn]
... when using media source, about what fields should return
13:24:06 [glenn]
s/fields/id fields/
13:24:20 [Yoshiharu]
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13:24:23 [glenn]
... need to be clearer about which ids are used
13:24:34 [Cyril]
13:24:47 [Cyril]
13:25:08 [glenn]
cyril: can't just copy id from container file
13:25:17 [hbang]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:25:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hbang
13:25:22 [glenn]
... e.g., a and v tracks may use same id
13:25:46 [glenn]
acolwell: if using a manifest using info about ids, can make use of that info
13:25:58 [kawakami]
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13:25:58 [glenn]
ack cyril
13:26:08 [glenn]
acolwell: can discuss
13:26:25 [glenn]
paulc: asks if this is to give a name to id?
13:26:51 [glenn]
acolwell: MSE can permit construction where tracks change over times
13:27:00 [glenn]
... therefore more collision potential
13:27:20 [glenn]
... need to create rule to maintain track id uniqueness
13:27:50 [glenn]
simonpieters: are we still discussing text track id?
13:27:51 [dsinger]
q+ to agree that the IDs need to be unique within the media element, and consistent over time
13:27:52 [markw]
13:27:57 [glenn]
acolwell: also audio and video
13:28:08 [glenn]
simonpieters: why uniqueness constraint?
13:28:17 [glenn]
acolwell: due to getTrackById()
13:28:35 [glenn]
... if not unique, can't return one object
13:28:50 [glenn]
acolwell: didn't want to cause change in HTML spec
13:28:58 [Marcos]
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13:29:19 [glenn]
simonpieters: if we discover problem, then should consider changing HTML spec
13:29:22 [matt]
13:29:22 [matt]
[[PLEASE don't change the semantics of ID]]
13:29:22 [matt]
13:29:28 [matt]
ack dsinger
13:29:28 [Zakim]
dsinger, you wanted to agree that the IDs need to be unique within the media element, and consistent over time
13:29:37 [dan_romascanu]
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13:29:39 [glenn]
dsinger: if playing a media file directly, then ids come from media
13:29:48 [glenn]
... if coming from dash, then dash layer should provide ids
13:30:09 [glenn]
... we should write rule for (a) unique, (b) consistent over time
13:30:18 [matt]
ack markw
13:30:26 [glenn]
markw: this is example of a general category
13:30:43 [glenn]
... can write code that doesn't need to know much about source
13:30:56 [glenn]
... but MSE needs more
13:31:03 [evanli]
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13:31:26 [glenn]
... concurs with dsinger about defining consistency rules
13:31:40 [SimonPieters]
13:31:46 [kinji]
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13:32:05 [glenn]
paulc: summarizes - multiple options presented here for consideration
13:32:30 [Cyril]
13:32:40 [glenn]
acolwell: one other thing ... if we don't have original id, then in a multiplex, can't identify particular track
13:32:45 [markw]
13:32:57 [chong]
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13:33:37 [glenn]
adrianba: depends on how one views MSE and common uses
13:33:50 [glenn]
... if you look at MSE, API is designed to use formats that use manifest
13:34:15 [Cyril]
s/MSE, API is/MSE as an API/
13:34:27 [glenn]
... if you look at MSE as way of abstracting how data gets into media element, then may not have a manifest
13:34:57 [matt]
13:35:10 [glenn]
... should consider how to approach MSE in this latter case, since no manifest available
13:35:18 [matt]
ack cyril
13:35:28 [glenn]
cyril: q is should id be static?
13:35:36 [glenn]
... may need to change id
13:35:58 [glenn]
acolwell: thinks spec currently says it shouldn't change
13:36:10 [glenn]
... need to choose which rule to violate
13:36:35 [glenn]
markw: problematic if UA generates ids
13:36:51 [SimonPieters]
We could have two attributes: id (stable, unique) and containerid (from the container, not necessarily unique or stable)
13:36:58 [glenn]
... if script supplies ids, then should allow control by script
13:37:04 [SimonPieters]
If there are use cases for having both
13:37:25 [matt]
13:37:35 [glenn]
paulc: who owns this bug?
13:37:44 [dsinger]
I had two cases, not one. If the media engine is playing a manifest directly, then the manifest is the 'origin' of IDs. If the media source extensions are supplying media, they are the source of IDs. (I don't care what is driving those scripts, in the latter case). We just need to say that those IDs are unique within the media element and consistent over time, and leave it to the 'surface' of the media to ensure that's true.
13:37:56 [glenn]
... eds need to assign bug owner
13:38:17 [glenn]
acolwell: bug 18601
13:38:23 [paulc]
13:39:08 [glenn]
acolwell: should not require initialization segment?
13:39:23 [glenn]
... pat/pmt in TS proposal is considered initialization segment
13:39:36 [glenn]
13:39:52 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:39:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt
13:39:53 [glenn]
dsinger: notes that some formats are self-initializing
13:40:12 [glenn]
acolwell: some slight differences in terminology about what 'initialization segment' means
13:40:32 [glenn]
paulc: proposal is WONTFIX unless someone brings a media format
13:40:41 [matt]
13:40:41 [hober]
13:40:41 [glenn]
acolwell: remove conflict
13:40:50 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:40:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt
13:41:23 [glenn]
paulc: 19531
13:41:28 [paulc]
13:41:29 [dsinger]
notes that the definition of initialization segment to me, at least, excludes self-initializing media segments, and if that's not intended the text (and examples) need revision
13:41:54 [glenn]
adrianba: issue about what mime types MSE could accept
13:42:03 [glenn]
... need feedback on two proposals
13:42:13 [glenn]
... one is add method isTypeSupported()
13:42:39 [glenn]
... will say if source buffer can be created for some mime type
13:42:54 [adrianba]
13:42:57 [glenn]
... alternate is something like canPlayType() => probably, maybe, no
13:43:08 [glenn]
... isn't clear which is best
13:43:17 [glenn]
13:43:30 [glenn]
... prefers former (return binary value)
13:43:38 [matt]
ack next
13:44:00 [matt]
ack next
13:44:07 [markw]
13:44:14 [Cyril]
q+ canPlayType is for when you don't have codec parameters
13:44:26 [glenn]
adrianba: matter of consistency
13:44:37 [markw]
bool isTypeSupported seems ok to me, but if canPlayType is NO then isTypeSupported should be false
13:44:46 [glenn]
... if you have code for canPlayType for basic media, then perhaps should reuse that here
13:44:59 [glenn]
... in EME, will extend canPlayType()
13:45:07 [matt]
q+ Cyril to say canPlayType is for when you don't have codec parameters
13:45:26 [glenn]
... may be necessary to apply same params here (with MSE)
13:45:33 [dsinger]
q+ to say that we need a differentiation between whole files and MSE-supported files
13:45:33 [matt]
ack Cyril
13:45:34 [Zakim]
Cyril, you wanted to say canPlayType is for when you don't have codec parameters
13:45:54 [glenn]
cyril: canPlayType() .... may not know how many tracks
13:46:01 [markw]
13:46:04 [glenn]
... but in this case could be asked on a per-track basis
13:46:14 [adrianba]
13:46:42 [markw]
isContainerSupported ?
13:46:46 [glenn]
acolwell: this seems more about whether byte stream format is supported as opposed to whether that content can be played
13:47:30 [glenn]
... donesn't think anything gained by using canPlayType... thinks returning "probably" is not helpful
13:47:39 [glenn]
... either you support that format or you don't
13:47:56 [matt]
13:48:04 [matt]
ack next
13:48:05 [Zakim]
dsinger, you wanted to say that we need a differentiation between whole files and MSE-supported files
13:48:06 [glenn]
cyril: may not care about track format vs container format
13:48:13 [glenn]
dsinger: asking different questions
13:48:25 [glenn]
... may support may types but not support playing with MSE
13:48:53 [glenn]
... thinks orthogonal issues of getting segments into media versus playing media (consisting of such segments)
13:49:16 [glenn]
markw: agrees, wonders if 'isContainerSupported' is better
13:49:22 [matt]
ack next
13:50:06 [glenn]
paulc: acolwell, do you have enough here for a decision?
13:50:22 [adrianba]
13:50:27 [glenn]
acolwell: agrees testing 2 diff things
13:50:41 [noriya_]
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13:50:42 [markw]
is it possible that an implementation could support some codec X when supplied in an WebM file but not when supplied in WebM format over MediaSource ? We hope not.
13:50:59 [Cyril]
To answer Dave's comment, there could be the case that someone supports H264 in MP4 but not H264 in MPEG-2 TS (or vice versa)
13:51:09 [adrianba]
ack me
13:51:14 [glenn]
acolwell: interpreted dsinger as supporting position
13:51:43 [glenn]
adrianba: does anyone object to isTypeSupported on MS?
13:52:03 [glenn]
paulc: no objections noted
13:52:11 [glenn]
cyril: testing only container
13:52:27 [adrianba]
s/on MS?/on MSE?/
13:52:32 [hbang]
rrsagent, draft minuites
13:52:32 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minuites', hbang. Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:52:47 [hbang]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:52:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hbang
13:52:51 [glenn]
acolwell: bug 18962
13:53:03 [matt]
-> Bug 18962 - Allow appending with XHR
13:53:25 [glenn]
acolwell: use XHT to append data?
13:53:31 [adrianba]
13:53:31 [glenn]
13:53:53 [Cyril]
13:54:00 [glenn]
acolwell: would allow appending stream object that comes from XHR
13:54:21 [adrianba]
ack me
13:54:23 [SimonPieters] (search for "stream")
13:54:55 [glenn]
adrianba: raised in WebApps, has action to write spec
13:55:18 [glenn]
... addition of some events to signal progress of append
13:55:39 [glenn]
... purpose - asynchronously append data from network stream without having to involve JS
13:56:02 [glenn]
... should reduce code complexity, better performance (memory and speed)
13:56:25 [glenn]
... while XHR is primary use case, but doesn't actually need to know source is XHR
13:56:27 [jyp]
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13:56:44 [glenn]
... needs way to tell application when its safe to append again
13:57:06 [leetv]
leetv has joined #html-wg
13:57:10 [richt]
richt has joined #html-wg
13:57:22 [glenn]
... need to understand what circumstances can have append fail
13:57:34 [glenn]
... should assume appends [always] succeed? probably not
13:57:42 [leetv2]
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13:57:46 [leetv_]
leetv_ has joined #html-wg
13:57:55 [glenn]
... may need to indicate what type of failure occurred
13:57:59 [matt]
13:58:12 [jyp]
jyp has joined #html-wg
13:58:13 [matt]
ack next
13:58:15 [glenn]
paulc: this bug refers to that XHR addition?
13:58:20 [massimo]
massimo has joined #html-wg
13:58:22 [adrianba]
13:58:23 [glenn]
adrianba: yes
13:58:32 [glenn]
cyril: is there a requirement array is populated in JS?
13:58:43 [glenn]
... could it be populated only when accessed [in JS]?
13:58:54 [markw]
13:59:01 [glenn]
acolwell: it's possible, but not how [Google] currently implements it
13:59:11 [glenn]
adrianba: during download possible to look at array buffer
13:59:28 [glenn]
... expected array buffer represents continguous memory block
13:59:50 [glenn]
... wants to allow media engine to be in control of moving data into [decoder]
13:59:54 [adrianba]
13:59:56 [matt]
ack next
14:00:14 [glenn]
markw: thinks couldn't get array buffer [with known length] until transfer complete
14:00:28 [markw]
14:00:35 [glenn]
acolwell: thinks he has enough to run with this
14:00:57 [markw]
also, can't use arraybuffer with open range requests
14:01:30 [matt]
-> Bug 18963 - Provide a mechanism for rate limiting appending
14:01:47 [glenn]
paulc: bug 18963
14:01:57 [mdahlstrand]
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14:02:01 [fwtnb_]
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14:02:12 [Cyril]
14:02:16 [glenn]
adrianba: should there be mechanism to inform app it is appending data faster than being consumed?
14:02:37 [glenn]
... i.e., rate limiting
14:02:44 [Cyril]
14:02:50 [glenn]
... do we really need to do this now?
14:03:01 [glenn]
... or is this just an enhancement [that can be postponed]
14:03:27 [glenn]
... what is current behavior for append if buffer is full?
14:03:37 [glenn]
acolwell: currently append won't fail
14:03:45 [glenn]
... spec can do GC
14:03:55 [glenn]
... e.g., to remove parts of source buffer
14:04:06 [Cyril]
14:04:11 [glenn]
... chrome will trim material earlier than current playback position
14:04:22 [hitoshi_]
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14:04:24 [glenn]
... tries to assess usefulness of data for throwing away
14:04:26 [adrianba]
14:04:43 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:04:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt
14:04:57 [glenn]
... if there were event, could use remove[Data] to have app make decisions
14:05:25 [glenn]
adrianba: failing append used for rate limiting
14:05:44 [matt]
rrsagent, pointer?
14:05:44 [RRSAgent]
14:05:46 [glenn]
cyril: would be nice to have a presentation occupancy indicator
14:05:47 [rubys]
rubys has joined #html-wg
14:06:00 [glenn]
markw: not clear there's a fixed amount of memory for source buffer
14:06:04 [plh]
14:06:09 [Cyril]
s/a presentation occupancy/a buffer occupancy/
14:06:10 [glenn]
... if error on append, then wait and try again
14:06:11 [Cyril]
14:06:30 [glenn]
acolwell: if there isn't threshold, then throw an error instead of GC
14:07:14 [adrianba]
14:07:38 [glenn]
cyril: thinks resolution is to throw exception, but may want to know finer exception reason
14:07:47 [glenn]
acolwell: agreed
14:08:59 [glenn]
acolwell: bug 18709 - remove [data] method
14:09:12 [glenn]
s/data/time ranges/
14:09:22 [matt]
-> Bug 18709 - Add SourceBuffer.remove() method
14:09:33 [glenn]
... what if remove on current playback position?
14:09:53 [glenn]
... if data gets appended over playback position, then what?
14:09:58 [glenn]
... stay paused? seek?
14:10:03 [shoko]
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14:10:09 [glenn]
... keyframe?
14:10:27 [markw]
14:10:32 [glenn]
... if seeked, then should those events be internal only or surfaced [to script]?
14:10:51 [dsinger]
14:11:15 [matt]
ack next
14:11:17 [glenn]
ack markw
14:11:32 [glenn]
markw: general rule is if you don't have data for current playback position
14:11:39 [glenn]
... then like being in network stall
14:11:52 [glenn]
... when data starts arriving, like resuming from stall
14:11:56 [glenn]
... odd situation
14:12:10 [glenn]
... if resumed data doesn't really match, then error case
14:12:11 [kawakami]
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14:12:18 [glenn]
... can't happen in current format
14:12:25 [glenn]
acolwell: artifact of MSE
14:12:40 [hbang]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:12:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hbang
14:12:41 [glenn]
markw: like appending with data not starting with I-frame
14:12:46 [matt]
ack next
14:12:50 [glenn]
... do you throw away up to I-frame?
14:13:02 [glenn]
dsinger: isn't this dependent on implementation behavior?
14:13:20 [glenn]
... most decoders just keep playing (skipping as needed)
14:13:23 [nkic]
nkic has joined #html-wg
14:13:28 [glenn]
... i.e., this is a quality of implementation issue
14:13:33 [markw]
14:13:40 [glenn]
paulc: could add "this is undedefined" to spec
14:13:43 [kotakagi]
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14:13:51 [glenn]
acolwell: hearing "stall" but not "seek"
14:14:20 [markw]
playback starts again automatically, as if resuming from a network stall, but what is displayed before getting to the next I-Frame is undefined
14:14:21 [glenn]
paulc: bug 17094
14:14:51 [jyp]
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14:15:04 [glenn]
... are there MPEG-2 TS experts here?
14:15:17 [leetv__]
leetv__ has joined #html-wg
14:15:59 [matt]
-> Bug 17094 - Define segment formats for MPEG2-TS
14:17:15 [hitoshi_]
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14:17:37 [matt]
14:17:51 [glenn]
Action glenn: Follow up with Bob Lund on bug 17094
14:17:51 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find glenn. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
14:18:19 [dsinger]
self-initing MP4 files all start at time 0, as well, so their order is indeterminate. the same question arises
14:18:35 [glenn]
acolwell: because there are no markers for begin/end in media source, there is some issue
14:18:48 [glenn]
dsinger: same (similar?) issue with MPEG-4
14:19:20 [glenn]
acolwell: no begin/end in media segment
14:19:42 [Cyril]
to answer dave's question, for MP4 you'd have to use timestampOffset when appending
14:19:52 [massimowww]
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14:19:59 [markw]
with dash/mp4 you don't have a sequence of self-initializing media segments. You just have one and you extract the sub-segments.
14:20:05 [acolwell]
acolwell: Because there are no markers for the begin/end of a media segment, it is difficult for MSE to differentiate a TS discontinuity from a out-of-order append.
14:20:31 [dsinger]
so, for any format, use timestampoffset to set the correct overall timeline (i.e. after applying this, the timestamps are in the global order)
14:20:35 [markw]
the timestamps within a period are monotonic, unlike mpeg2 ts
14:21:06 [matt]
-> Bug 17002 - Specify a mechanism to determine which SourceBuffer an AudioTrack,VideoTrack, or TextTrack belong to.
14:21:17 [glenn]
paulc: bug 17002
14:21:37 [glenn]
adrianba: mechanism for mapping track object against html media element back to source buffer
14:21:44 [glenn]
... related to track ids discussion
14:21:49 [hbang]
rrsagent, generate minutes
14:21:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hbang
14:22:16 [glenn]
... given a media element, identify active track, and determine which source buffer applies so you know where to append
14:22:34 [glenn]
... adrianba prefers using id string if it can be made to work
14:23:15 [glenn]
... if have track id, then should be able to map back to source buffer
14:23:26 [glenn]
acolwell: use object instead of id?
14:23:37 [glenn]
... yes, that would remove dependency on 5.1
14:23:54 [matt]
14:24:06 [glenn]
adrianba: any ojection?
14:24:25 [glenn]
[scribe: none heard]
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14:24:53 [adrianba]
i/acolwell: use/adrianba: perhaps we should now use the objects to remove the dependency on ids - i'd like to ask if anybody objects to that/
14:25:01 [Travis]
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14:25:50 [Travis]
Alternate form using union types from WebIDL= SourceBuffer? getSourceBuffer((VideoTrack or AudioTrack or TextTrack) track);
14:26:02 [Travis]
Overloaded functions is also supported as-is.
14:26:09 [glenn]
present+ Glenn_Adams
14:26:47 [matt]
-> Draft charter
14:26:50 [glenn]
paulc: presents charter draft
14:27:10 [glenn]
... deliverables: (1) HtML5 et al (2) HTML 5.1
14:27:22 [glenn]
... dates from "Plan 2014"
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14:27:49 [glenn]
... believes plh is OK if he sends to draft to charter with NO SCHEDULE for media extensions
14:28:03 [glenn]
... may get comments: why no schedule for media extensions?
14:28:04 [hbang]
rssagent, make minutes
14:28:22 [glenn]
... but we could choose 5.1 schedule for media extensions
14:28:42 [markw]
14:28:44 [glenn]
... in which case, would have FPWD before end of 2012, but no REC until Q42016
14:28:53 [glenn]
... seems slow
14:29:01 [hbang]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:29:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hbang
14:29:08 [glenn]
... in media TF have discussed
14:29:24 [massimo]
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14:29:24 [glenn]
... haven't brought to FPWD due to rennovation of APIs, more object oriented, etc.
14:29:35 [glenn]
... these bugs are primarily clean up from tha twork
14:29:43 [glenn]
s/tha twork/that work/
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14:29:58 [glenn]
... there is a disclosure requirement after FPWD
14:30:24 [glenn]
... not only should design but also scope be well understood before FPWD due to IPR policy consequences
14:30:49 [glenn]
... media TF would like to go to FPWD before end of 2012 [no matter what]
14:31:03 [glenn]
... believes vast majority of bugs will be addressed by then
14:31:21 [glenn]
... if 5.1 sched isn't used, then can make up a [faster] sched
14:31:30 [glenn]
... paulc would propose as follows:
14:31:40 [kt]
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14:31:41 [glenn]
... FPWD - Q412
14:32:11 [glenn]
... how long to LC?
14:32:24 [matt]
ack markw
14:32:25 [glenn]
markw: what are LC exit criteria?
14:32:50 [glenn]
paulc: an extension could be either more strict or more lax than 5.0
14:33:05 [glenn]
... should evaluate "public permissive" but may choose differently
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14:33:16 [adrianba]
q+ to talk about milestones
14:33:23 [glenn]
... indeed individual media extensions could have distinct criteria
14:34:09 [glenn]
paulc: can LC be complete in 2013
14:34:23 [glenn]
... suggest Q413 for LC completion
14:34:26 [jgraham]
I note that CR typically does have test requirements
14:34:32 [matt]
ack next
14:34:33 [Zakim]
adrianba, you wanted to talk about milestones
14:34:39 [ArtB]
q+ re schedule
14:35:25 [glenn]
adrianba: proposes to move aggressively to LC
14:35:35 [glenn]
... shouldn't delay
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14:36:53 [glenn]
paulc: will need to meet exit criteria... e.g., impls and some testing
14:37:11 [glenn]
adrianba: proposes Q213 for LC completion
14:37:27 [adrianba]
14:37:28 [matt]
ack next
14:37:31 [Zakim]
ArtB, you wanted to discuss schedule
14:38:09 [glenn]
artb: recommends being as vague and as non-committal as possible in charter
14:38:25 [mjs]
14:38:29 [glenn]
markw: supports agressive time scale, no opinion on whether its in charter
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14:38:52 [glenn]
... has some confident can meet an aggressive time scale
14:39:11 [glenn]
mark_vickers: concurs... be aggressive
14:39:25 [matt]
14:39:29 [matt]
ack next
14:39:29 [glenn]
adrianba: supports being vague in published dates, but aggressive on work
14:39:45 [glenn]
mjs: for HTML5, have milestones in charter
14:39:50 [adrianba]
s/published dates/CR and PR dates/
14:39:58 [glenn]
... due to extreme interest in schedule
14:40:04 [adrianba]
s/aggressive on work/agressive on LC/
14:40:09 [glenn]
... but nobody has pressed for schedule on other deliverables
14:40:25 [glenn]
... little advantage to public date commitments
14:40:33 [matt]
14:40:37 [adrianba]
+1 to mjs
14:40:56 [glenn]
acolwell: agrees with mjs
14:41:25 [matt]
[[I've seen schedules at times bring people into the process sooner rather than later, but don't care if it's in the charter or not]]
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14:41:50 [glenn]
paulc: is there any objection to not including date sched for media extensions in charter?
14:42:11 [glenn]
... none heard... we'll go with that as current position
14:42:17 [Zakim]
14:42:18 [glenn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:42:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate glenn
14:42:19 [hbang]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:42:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hbang
14:42:33 [matt]
zakim, drop rhone_3
14:42:33 [Zakim]
Rhone_3 is being disconnected
14:42:33 [glenn]
end of this session
14:42:35 [Zakim]
14:42:51 [glenn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:42:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate glenn
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14:54:30 [Zakim]
+ +1.303.661.aaaa
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14:55:13 [BobLund]
zakim, 1.303.661.aaaa is me
14:55:13 [Zakim]
sorry, BobLund, I do not recognize a party named '1.303.661.aaaa'
14:55:29 [BobLund]
zakim, +1.303.661.aaaa is me
14:55:29 [Zakim]
+BobLund; got it
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14:59:59 [Mark_Vickers]
present+ Mark_Vickers
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15:07:22 [matt]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:07:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Steve, BobLund
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15:07:43 [matt]
zakim, dial rhone_3
15:07:43 [Zakim]
ok, matt; the call is being made
15:07:44 [Zakim]
15:07:50 [Zakim]
15:07:57 [matt]
zakim, dial rhone_3
15:07:57 [Zakim]
ok, matt; the call is being made
15:07:58 [Zakim]
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15:08:53 [Travis]
scribeNick: Travis
15:09:03 [yoav_]
Present+ yoav_
15:09:04 [abarsto]
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15:09:06 [pal]
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15:09:25 [Travis]
Topic: EME
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15:09:39 [Magnus_Olsson]
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15:10:03 [BobLund]
I've got to leave at half past the hour.
15:10:06 [paulc]
15:10:14 [matt]
-> EME bugs
15:10:15 [Travis]
paulc: looking into the priorized list of EME bugs
15:10:34 [Travis]
.. look at the attachment in Paul's mail link
15:10:51 [Masahito]
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15:11:46 [Travis]
ack Masahito
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15:12:28 [Travis]
15:12:34 [ot]
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15:12:42 [adrianba]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:12:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate adrianba
15:12:46 [SimonPieters]
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15:12:47 [matt]
15:13:11 [Travis]
Masahito: some comments on EME (co-chair of WebTV XG)
15:14:00 [Travis]
... storage proposal for media content (caching)--how will EME be related to protect that content?
15:14:01 [matt]
-> TV APIs discussion yesterday
15:14:13 [adrianba]
i/scribenick: glenn/Topic: Media Source Extension/
15:14:30 [matt]
-> Web and TV IG minutes
15:14:51 [paul]
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15:14:53 [Travis]
... Use cases for EME seem to address our cases so far.
15:14:58 [hitoshi_]
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15:15:00 [Travis]
... Can I add some additional uses cases in the draft?
15:15:09 [tomoyuki]
s/WebTV XG/Web and TV IG/
15:15:11 [Travis]
... Don't seem many use cases in the current draft.
15:15:13 [adrianba]
q+ to comment on the Web and TV IG use cases
15:15:19 [Travis]
paulc: has anyone filed bugs for other use cases?
15:15:21 [noriya]
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15:15:29 [Travis]
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15:16:18 [Travis]
ddorwin1: goal is that it's not restrive. That's why there's not many use cases.
15:16:42 [Travis]
... we know we need to add an introduction to how to use.
15:16:47 [leetv2]
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15:16:47 [dan_romascanu]
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15:16:49 [Travis]
... not sure where that would go.
15:16:58 [marilyn]
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15:17:06 [Travis]
paulc: typical W3C will write a non-normative primer.
15:17:24 [Travis]
... contains examples of what the technology might solve.
15:17:35 [Travis]
... example was XMLSchema.
15:17:45 [Travis]
... doesn't need to go in the spec itself.
15:17:52 [matt]
15:17:55 [Travis]
... the audience for the specs are very different.
15:18:26 [Travis]
ack adrianba
15:18:26 [Zakim]
adrianba, you wanted to comment on the Web and TV IG use cases
15:18:32 [hbang]
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15:18:51 [hbang]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:18:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hbang
15:18:56 [Travis]
adrianba: remember that this work is a follow-up the requirements gathered by web and TV IG.
15:19:10 [Travis]
... there are a bunch of use cases and reqs that the IG gathered.
15:19:40 [Travis]
... I repeat that as the Web and TV IG reviewes charter and scope, that they should identify use cases and reqs for content in general...
15:19:57 [Travis]
... and which are satisified by EME and other systems and what the gaps are.
15:19:58 [Travis]
15:20:22 [Travis]
Masahito: Agree, that's a good direction.
15:20:39 [Travis]
... also thinking that from EME's POV, it already covers everything we know
15:21:00 [Travis]
... I'm suggesting that we specifically describe how EME will be used in such cases.
15:21:56 [Travis]
markv: Original proposal was done in the IG's task force.
15:22:20 [Travis]
paulc: It would be very useful to figure out how to bridge the gulf between the tech spec and the use cases.
15:22:23 [Travis]
... moving on..
15:22:35 [ddorwin1]
updated figure:
15:23:08 [Travis]
ddorwin1: compaint that it wasn't clear what happens to the decrypted frame.
15:23:12 [Travis]
... updated it this week.
15:23:27 [Travis]
... clarified in the graphic in the spec.
15:23:37 [Travis]
... the frames (where they go) is up to the CDM.
15:23:54 [Travis]
paulc: graphic is more up-to-date than the prose?
15:24:02 [Travis]
ddorwin1: yes.
15:24:14 [Travis]
paulc: There is work to do to make the prose match the diagram.
15:24:42 [Travis]
ddorwin1: overview doc was [tried to be] passed off to the IG
15:24:56 [markw]
proposed text to clarify frame handling is here:
15:25:20 [Travis]
ddorwin1: For EME: we could put a static key type api.
15:25:31 [matt]
15:25:33 [Travis]
... For this group, do we leave canPlayType?
15:25:35 [Cyril]
15:25:38 [markw]
15:25:43 [Travis]
ack cyril
15:25:47 [matt]
ack next
15:25:52 [matt]
q+ markw
15:26:00 [Travis]
cyril: will the encryption system be different depending on the media type?
15:26:16 [Travis]
ddorwin1: Encryption techinque depends on the container.
15:26:31 [Travis]
... real question: can this key system support ISO common encryption.
15:26:41 [Travis]
... does this UA have a key system X, and does this UA support that?
15:26:51 [Travis]
... it's a matter of where it is in the API
15:27:19 [Travis]
ack markv
15:27:22 [Travis]
ack markw
15:28:01 [Travis]
markw: A UA might support codec A and keysystem B, but not not support the combination.
15:28:12 [adrianba]
15:28:15 [adrianba]
15:28:27 [Travis]
ddorwin1: It's a matter of where you want to ask the question.
15:28:35 [Travis]
markw: If you ask the full combination than that's fine.
15:28:40 [Travis]
ack adrianba
15:29:02 [Travis]
adrianba: Wondering what's the compatibility of the container format with the key system.
15:29:23 [Travis]
... canPlayType on the media element will give us the vague response.
15:29:37 [Travis]
... if we move it to MSE, then it might be the same good answer for EME.
15:30:07 [Travis]
paulc: Onto item 4.
15:30:12 [Zakim]
15:30:17 [matt]
-> Bug 17673 - Define Initialization Data for implementations that choose to support the ISO Base Media File Format
15:31:08 [paulc]
15:31:08 [Travis]
ddorwin1: currently working on two containers, see two bugs on how to use those.
15:31:26 [Travis]
... question on how to handle ISO
15:31:51 [Travis]
johnsimmons: structure of container guidelines for webM and ISO are the same
15:32:02 [Travis]
... what's the screen info, initializtion and events, etc.
15:32:07 [Travis]
... structure is the same
15:32:17 [Cyril]
15:32:22 [Travis]
... we decided to emphaises the common encryption detection scheme
15:32:53 [dsinger]
q+ to say that we should say how to identify encryption in general
15:32:56 [Travis]
... replicates some of the info from the ISO 23001-7 spec
15:33:00 [Cyril]
15:33:08 [Travis]
... expected to look up the details in the spec.
15:33:27 [Travis]
... most discussion has been on the initialization steps where most of the discussion has taken place.
15:34:05 [Clarke]
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15:34:17 [Travis]
... [see bottom of the bug]
15:34:19 [ddorwin1]
initData is a concatenated list of PSSH blocks
15:34:34 [markw]
15:34:44 [matt]
-> Technical info from John
15:34:49 [craig_]
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15:34:51 [Travis]
... central issue is that this follows the commen ency spec. except the part about concatenating the pssh blocks
15:34:54 [adrianba]
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15:35:05 [Travis]
paulc: proposal is to put this into the spec.
15:35:08 [Travis]
15:35:08 [adrianba]
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15:35:16 [Travis]
ack dsinger
15:35:16 [Zakim]
dsinger, you wanted to say that we should say how to identify encryption in general
15:35:24 [Travis]
dsinger: It's a little too specific.
15:35:41 [Travis]
... think we should have more generic text for other encryption seq.
15:35:56 [Travis]
... don't mind documenting how to handle common ecryp.
15:36:00 [matt]
15:36:15 [Travis]
johnsimmons: I don't object, if someone provides common language.
15:36:21 [Cyril]
such documentation should be in the ISO spec not in the EME spec
15:36:47 [Travis]
paulc: dsinger and john will talk offline to come up with common text.
15:37:10 [dsinger]
would prefer that the section was a little more layered, detecting encryption in general and how to handle it, and then encryption-system specific considerations
15:37:14 [matt]
ack next
15:37:31 [Cyril]
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15:37:40 [Travis]
markw: when looking at track/sample depends on the box, but it also depends on looking at the flag.
15:38:20 [Travis]
15:38:24 [Travis]
ack cyrill
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15:38:38 [Travis]
cyrill: is really the job's group to document MP4 format?
15:38:58 [Travis]
markw: you have to translate to ISO format to the language in this spec.
15:39:00 [adrianba]
15:39:07 [adrianba]
15:39:16 [adrianba]
ack next
15:39:33 [Travis]
... you could say it's informative, otherwise someone might concluded that if the sample group is encrypted than the whole thing is encrypted.
15:39:50 [Travis]
cyril: we should make sure we identify what's normative versus what isn't.
15:39:53 [matt]
15:40:10 [Travis]
ack adrianba
15:40:17 [rubylin]
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15:40:21 [adrianba]
-> Informative container information
15:40:47 [markw]
my point was that as well as the track level default (Track Encryption Box) and sample group level default there is also a per sample flag indicating whether a sample is encrypted
15:41:00 [Travis]
adrianba: I think the spec's clear about how the mapping happens.
15:41:22 [Travis]
... if you choose to support a format, then you should do it per spec so that it is interoperable.
15:41:36 [markw]
15:41:41 [Travis]
ack next
15:42:16 [Travis]
q+ markw
15:42:42 [Travis]
adrianba: there's a css bug that makes it look wrong
15:42:58 [Travis]
paulc: johnsimmons proposed text is to be non-normative
15:43:02 [Travis]
ack next
15:43:25 [Travis]
markw: I think the termonology mapping should be normative. An encryped block in the text means a sample.
15:43:51 [leetv]
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15:43:51 [Travis]
paulc: the part you want to be normative is the mapping right?
15:44:07 [leetv2]
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15:44:21 [Travis]
adrianba: I want to think about that. We're trying to make the text solve that, but without normative reqs for a particular format.
15:44:36 [Travis]
... we want to say "it's a must to do it this way, if you do it this way"
15:45:16 [Travis]
... I have some concerns, as I said. We'll continue that discussion, just not today.
15:45:21 [matt]
-> Bug 17682 - Clear Key: Document how keys and key IDs are associated
15:45:26 [adrianba]
we need to fix the spec to ensure the "non-normative" appears correctly across browsers
15:46:06 [Travis]
ddorwin1: In the original spec, addKey() had two params... it worked well for webM, but doesn't scale for having multipel keys at a time.
15:46:29 [Travis]
... for clearkey, was a problem
15:46:43 [Travis]
johnsimmons: wanted clearkey to be handled by a CDM
15:46:52 [hbang]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:46:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hbang
15:47:08 [Travis]
... [explains clearkey vs drm systems]
15:47:59 [Travis]
... The inconsistency is: it was unclear when all that was being passed was a key.
15:48:19 [Travis]
... clearkey needed some kind of initData with keyid key pair.
15:48:49 [Travis]
... I proposed using RFC 6030, another propsal using JSON was also suggested.
15:48:50 [markw]
15:49:08 [Travis]
... my text in the bug is to ref one or the other of the container specs.
15:49:13 [mjs]
15:49:16 [hitoshi_]
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15:49:22 [matt]
-> MarkW's proposal using JSON
15:49:22 [matt]
s/JSON/JSON Web Key/
15:49:27 [Travis]
... and to change the text for clearkey CDN that you would use these containers.
15:49:43 [Travis]
... we also want examples for ISO and webM cases with a presumed same container.
15:49:55 [mjs]
15:50:16 [Johnsimmons]
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15:50:35 [adrianba]
15:50:51 [Travis]
Markw: JSON webkey doesn't yet support this.
15:51:07 [Travis]
... it would be trivial for it to support symetric keys, but it doesn't yet.
15:51:10 [matt]
ack next
15:51:59 [Travis]
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15:52:09 [Travis]
johnsimmons: I prefer a JSON solution.
15:52:17 [lmasinter]
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15:52:34 [Travis]
paulc: propose that the editors add the proposal from mark
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15:53:22 [Travis]
markw: put a referenece in the appendix and get something into an IANA registery.
15:53:42 [Travis]
paulc: ... and when it's ready, you can put the link to the registry.
15:54:01 [Travis]
paulc: John's outline, with mark's solution is the path forward
15:54:11 [Travis]
15:54:37 [Travis]
markv: also prefer that solution, but there's a dependency that could hurt our agressive schedule.
15:55:02 [Travis]
paulc: for mimetypes to they get pulled out of the appendix section of the spec up till CR...
15:55:15 [Travis]
... then from CR->PR and upon registry, then it can come out (very late)
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15:55:48 [matt]
-> Bug 17470 - Provide specific guidance on when generateKeyRequest should be called
15:55:55 [Travis]
paulc: looking at bug 17470
15:56:13 [matt]
-> Bug 17660 - need token relative with user identity for a new generateKeyRequest parameter
15:56:35 [Travis]
ddorwin: next bug is 17660
15:56:57 [Travis]
... provides an optional param for user identify
15:56:58 [Judy_clone]
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15:57:08 [Travis]
... the app should handle the identification.
15:57:15 [Travis]
... got a request to reopen.
15:57:24 [Travis]
... to use the keyrequest as a trusted transport stream.
15:57:33 [Travis]
... that's not what it was intended to be used for.
15:58:00 [Travis]
paulc: Sees that Joe's not here. We shouldn't make a decision without his input.
15:58:16 [Travis]
ddorwin: would like to have a discussion?
15:58:45 [Travis]
... init data doesn't provide any other means of putting licence data into the request.
15:59:03 [Travis]
... there's no other way to provide a secure channel as it's coming from JS directly anyway.
15:59:12 [Travis]
... Joe came up with an alternative way to do this.
15:59:31 [markw]
15:59:43 [Travis]
ack next
15:59:57 [matt]
-> mail on 17660 from Joe Steele
16:00:00 [Travis]
markw: in the threads there are two proposals.
16:00:18 [Travis]
.. the first ask was ambiguous, they both come down to having an add'n param for createSession.
16:00:29 [Travis]
... one reason is to piggyback app messages to the server.
16:00:42 [Travis]
... the other proposal is for keysystem dependend.
16:00:54 [Travis]
... the app would need to know about the keysystem
16:01:03 [Travis]
... I don't think we need either one.
16:01:16 [adrianba]
16:01:24 [kotakagi]
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16:01:28 [markw]
16:01:31 [Travis]
... good to hear from anyone else?
16:01:34 [Travis]
ack next
16:02:11 [Travis]
adrianba: I'm not the person looking to support those. On the contrary, in the case of providing data to be packaged to the server--we definately do not want to support that.
16:02:46 [Travis]
... on the second point, providing addn'l data, we agree with markw that it shouldn't be necessary and our implementation wouldn't use it if it was there.
16:03:21 [Travis]
paulc: Again, since Martin/Joe is not here, we should reply back to the bug noting the conversation here at TPAC.
16:04:27 [Travis]
martin: I still believe it's useful to have that data sent.
16:05:09 [Travis]
paulc: classic question for v1 spec -- is it necessary?
16:05:18 [Travis]
... we'll need to find consensus
16:05:19 [adrianba]
martin said that he thinks it is useful because it avoids requiring the network transport to be a secure channel
16:05:44 [Arno]
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16:06:22 [markw]
you can avoid using a secure transport channel by using a secure application protocol, for which you could consider using the WebCrpyto APIs
16:06:43 [ddorwin]
16:06:44 [matt]
-> Bug 17203 - Should session ID be required?
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16:07:30 [Travis]
adrianba: session id was added to correlate key message events to add key responses (before refactoring of the API)
16:07:45 [Travis]
... with the changes to the spec, new question: what is the session id for?
16:07:52 [Travis]
... and should it be always required?
16:08:07 [Travis]
... we probably want to tie this to markw key release question.
16:08:41 [Travis]
... we're wondering if this is optional or manditory?
16:08:53 [Travis]
... the reason this has been kept alive, it's not a big overhead to have an incrementing int.
16:09:03 [Travis]
... if everyone implements it this way, is that really all that useful?
16:09:28 [Travis]
ddorwin: if we have it, it should be mandatory. Can't say how useful it is without key release.
16:09:54 [Travis]
adrianba: question for markw
16:10:19 [Travis]
... I recall you describing use cases for a session id related to key message, so that you could capture telemetry about the session from the app's logic
16:10:36 [Travis]
... could you elaborate?
16:10:40 [matt]
16:11:06 [Travis]
markw: Not sure if can elaborage, but that use case is now covered by the OO API. I now get an object, so I can hang stuff off the object.
16:11:13 [Travis]
... (for as long as that object is alive)
16:11:37 [Travis]
... we'd still like to have it because you may come back hours or days later to recover the object, and you'd need something to refer to it.
16:11:47 [ddorwin]
16:11:50 [Travis]
paulc: Is that enough motiviation to have session id?
16:12:19 [adrianba]
16:12:22 [adrianba]
16:12:25 [matt]
ack next
16:12:44 [Travis]
ddorwin: there may not be use cases unless they were doing keyrelease...
16:13:06 [markw]
16:13:17 [Travis]
... another option to explore (testing the waters...) if the session id read/write it for various reasons... they don't need it from the key system.
16:13:26 [Travis]
paulc: Makes me wonder if this is then mandatory for v1.
16:13:44 [Travis]
adrianba: we should propose that this issue be part of the secure key release discussion.
16:14:14 [matt]
-> Bug 18531 - Consider renaming addKey method
16:14:44 [Travis]
ddorwin: originaly you use addkey to provide a licence. There's other cases for adding keys/changing keys, etc.
16:15:01 [Travis]
... proposals to change the name since it's not always a key.
16:15:12 [Travis]
... we settled on "update" no one liked it, but it was the best we had.
16:15:15 [Travis]
... any objections?
16:15:33 [Travis]
paulc: any comments?
16:15:41 [Travis]
[ no comments]
16:15:48 [matt]
-> Bug 17199 - Provide examples for and get feedback on Key Release
16:15:59 [Travis]
markw: looking at the last comment.
16:16:10 [matt]
-> Mark's proposal
16:16:26 [hbang]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:16:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hbang
16:16:36 [Travis]
... we had text in the original version, then we removed it for the OO API.
16:16:59 [Travis]
... a message attests that the key was destroyed
16:17:18 [Travis]
... use case is that an accurate record of how many streams the user has in progress at one time.
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16:17:40 [Travis]
... we don't want you to have a thousand streams at once for subscription service.
16:18:05 [Travis]
... for EME the CDN creates these messages (origin specific).
16:18:21 [Travis]
... Need to store these messages, and you might send to the server.
16:18:24 [Travis]
... this can fail.
16:18:42 [Travis]
... need a signal from the server saying "yes I did recieve it"
16:18:51 [Travis]
... hense the requirement for the session id.
16:19:03 [Travis]
... then there are details on how to get the key release messagae.
16:19:53 [Travis]
... other case in 4.3 the media key is destroyed for another reason. We'd like to be able to see the keyrelease message relyably delivered.
16:20:30 [Travis]
... we know this may not be 100% of the time, but in practice, if a large percentage of these messages are recieved the server can mop up the rest.
16:21:02 [Travis]
... now in 4.5, proceedures for checking for stored messages on return to the app
16:21:15 [Travis]
... will create a media key session associated with the old state.
16:21:40 [Travis]
... skipping a few step details...
16:21:47 [Travis]
paulc: any questions?
16:21:57 [Travis]
... proposed replacement text for the bug resolution.
16:22:00 [Travis]
... any objections?
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16:22:11 [Travis]
ddorwin: heard concerns about how you'd implement this.
16:22:23 [Travis]
... you'd need to save these to disk. Not sure if CNS would want to do this.
16:22:48 [Travis]
... and how to handle the 'navigate away' case. Not sure this system would be useful if that case isn't solved.
16:23:24 [Travis]
markw: on the first point (storage) the CDN needs some kind of storage. Either they support it or not.
16:23:42 [Travis]
... on the issue of browser-close--this is just an implementation challenge for UA.
16:23:43 [yoav_]
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16:24:11 [Travis]
... just another example of the general issue of responding to server without blocking the UA.
16:24:13 [Travis]
... Same problem as sync-XHR.
16:24:31 [Travis]
... would love an alternative to closing a session without hanging up the UI thread.
16:24:43 [Travis]
paulc: when the person navigates and it blocks.
16:24:58 [Travis]
... what's the UA behavior.
16:25:06 [Travis]
markw: it blocks.
16:25:20 [Travis]
ddorwin: ideas have been proposed about having it be synchronous.
16:25:31 [Travis]
... browsers are trending toward making things faster.
16:25:55 [Travis]
paulc: the server has all the info on the key sessions, and you'd like to clear it.
16:26:09 [Travis]
markw: the server has state that thinks the client is streaming.
16:27:04 [Travis]
pal: keyrelease message is not exceptional (it's a common req.)
16:27:33 [Zakim]
16:27:42 [Travis]
ddorwin: there could be value for keyrelease message in other scenarios. Not sure if the req. for fully-reliable keyrelease makes sense.
16:28:17 [Travis]
ddorwin: there are alternative options available.
16:28:37 [Travis]
paulc: markw do you see this as an optional feature?
16:28:41 [Travis]
markw: [nods]
16:29:01 [Travis]
paulc: so is this a V1?
16:29:05 [Travis]
... does anyone want to speak nay about adding this?
16:29:15 [adrianba]
16:29:29 [Travis]
ddorwin: expiring licences and [other] are two other approaches
16:29:47 [Travis]
... you definately want to know when the licence is not being used anymore.
16:29:57 [Travis]
... we also have to make sure this is implementable.
16:30:25 [markw]
16:30:25 [Travis]
paulc: are you suggesting we wait until an implementation?
16:30:29 [matt]
ack next
16:30:35 [Travis]
adrianba: I agree with ddorwin
16:30:48 [Travis]
... the think I'm concerned about is specing it, but having know one implement
16:31:00 [Travis]
... sounds like marking a feature at risk and then seeing what happens later.
16:31:12 [Travis]
... we should review the proposal, highlight risks, etc.
16:31:18 [Travis]
... I don't object to this being in the spec.
16:31:30 [Travis]
... I don't think it's likely that we would implement (at first)
16:31:49 [Travis]
... If there are no implementation during our agressive schedule, then we probably wouldn't implement
16:32:29 [Travis]
markw: heartbeats model required a lot of interactions on the server, increasing the reqs. on the server.
16:32:46 [matt]
ack next
16:32:47 [Travis]
.... big difference on the server avaialbility (scalability)
16:33:02 [Travis]
... on browsers wanting to make shut-down faster, would love browser maker feedback.
16:33:12 [Travis]
... there are limits. You'd have to remove sync-xhr.
16:33:43 [Travis]
... it would be really valuable to remove sync-xhr, but don't break apps.
16:33:50 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:33:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt
16:34:15 [ddorwin]
topic: MediaKeys attachment is a method instead of property
16:34:25 [matt]
16:34:38 [adrianba]
16:34:57 [ddorwin]
16:35:31 [Travis]
adrianba: the model is to associate a media keys collection to a media element, we have a key attribute
16:35:42 [Travis]
... attribute MediaKeys keys;
16:35:55 [Travis]
... when you call the setter of keys, it makes the connection.
16:36:11 [Travis]
... (the bug we didn't get to asks where that binding means only one element maps to one key)
16:36:39 [Travis]
... problem is that it's not obvious (since it's a property) that there is processing that happens.
16:36:45 [Travis]
.... I propose making this a method.
16:37:12 [Travis]
... also make the mediaKeys keys attribute be readonly for clarity that setting it is an active process.
16:37:16 [Travis]
paulc: any reactions?
16:37:26 [Travis]
ddorwin: "Make it so" TM
16:37:39 [Travis]
paulc: Adrianba to open a bug to fix it.
16:38:12 [Travis]
ddorwin: Media keys can be made and assigned to an element.
16:38:30 [Travis]
... it would also be bad for DOM tree ownership.
16:38:41 [Travis]
... I think this (single ownership) is a must.
16:38:49 [Travis]
... should have errors, etc., in order to make it so.
16:39:13 [Zakim]
16:39:13 [Travis]
paulc: Chair secret--let the WG out early.
16:39:14 [hbang]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:39:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hbang
16:40:37 [Travis]
paulc: current plan is that draft charter for EME will have not specific schedule (same for MSE)
16:41:23 [Travis]
artb: If folks want to take these specs and run with them, that's awesome! having too many timescales can lead to problems later on.
16:41:46 [Zakim]
16:41:52 [adrianba]
i think a similar timeline for EME and MSE is appropriate
16:41:56 [hbang]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:41:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hbang
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16:42:06 [Travis]
paulc: calls for a recess until tomorrow.
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16:43:12 [Zakim]
16:43:13 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()4:00AM has ended
16:43:13 [Zakim]
Attendees were Rhone_3, Steve, Cynthia_Shelly, BobLund, Clarke
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rrsagent, generate minutes
16:47:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Travis
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trackbot, status?
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[13html] 15rubys pushed 3 new commits to 06feature/whatwg: 02
23:09:21 [gitbot]
13html/06feature/whatwg 1444de111 15ianh: [giow] (3) Try to get a little closer to browsers....
23:09:21 [gitbot]
13html/06feature/whatwg 14fa5f20c 15ianh: [giow] (3) Another attempt at defining tabindex, :disabled, what can be focused, etc....
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13html/06feature/whatwg 14b7a8a75 15ianh: [giow] (2) Storage.getItem() can return null....
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