12:32:11 RRSAgent has joined #xmlmemory 12:32:11 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-xmlmemory-irc 12:32:21 rrsagent, make log public 12:32:41 Meeting: XML Memory breakout, TPAC 2012 12:32:49 liam has joined #xmlmemory 12:32:55 Chair: Steven Pemberton 12:33:07 rrsagent, make minutes 12:33:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-xmlmemory-minutes.html Steven 12:33:26 Robin_La_F has joined #xmlmemory 12:33:47 Present+Steven_Pemberton 12:33:48 daveL has joined #xmlmemory 12:33:55 Present+Jim_Fuller 12:33:58 Present+Jirka_Kosek 12:33:59 Present+Liam_Quin 12:34:10 Present+Robin_Lafontaine 12:34:25 scribe: liam 12:34:28 Present+Dave_Lewis 12:34:30 scribenick: liam 12:34:57 topic: introductions 12:35:12 Jim Fuller: Senior engineer at MarkLogic, interested in XML! 12:35:26 Jirka Kosek: also interested in XML! 12:35:56 David Lewis: co-chair of multilingual web LT WG, at Trinity College Dublin, interested in provenance too. 12:36:11 Liam Quin: XML Activity Lead at W3C 12:36:33 Robin LaFontaine: from DeltaXML, it's our business focus 12:36:50 Steven Pembertom: chair of XForms, prev. chair of XHTML, on ODF committee too 12:37:11 ...interested to know if there's a standard here 12:37:31 Topic: Background 12:37:51 http://www.w3.org/wiki/User_talk:Rlafonta 12:37:57 http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2012/SessionIdeas#XML_Memory_and_Change_Tracking 12:38:31 Robin: this work originates from ODF where they want improved change tracking... 12:38:41 we came up with something more generic than just for ODF 12:39:00 principle here is, could XML benefit from having the ability to record previous versions or variants, track changes 12:39:20 What other useful areas might there be that this could apply to? 12:39:26 In the document area it's fairly obvious 12:39:41 rrsagent, make minutes 12:39:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-xmlmemory-minutes.html Steven 12:39:48 e.g. if it's a technical manual I might be primarily interested in what's new 12:40:06 If you look at data, e.g. configuration files, would be nice to roll back to a previous version, or see changes 12:40:26 Audit trails, who changed what, when 12:40:47 So, is it worth having a standard? 12:41:33 ODF, DITA, DocBook, StrategicML (project planning) 12:41:57 Standard might also be useful for processing change 12:42:04 and XML editors 12:42:31 all tend to have their own mechanisms for tracking change, but they don't want to do something different from DITA and DocBook 12:42:53 Present+Daniel_Austin 12:43:03 Present+Norm_Walsh 12:43:09 daveL: another use case, localization, e.g. to know what new stuff needs to be translated 12:43:51 slightlyoff has joined #xmlmemory 12:43:56 Norm has joined #xmlmemory 12:44:02 Daniel: work for paypal, picked this as I know the least about it! 12:44:13 Present+Alex_Russel 12:44:16 Alex Russell: Work at Google, Here to understand what you're doing 12:44:45 Norm Walsh: produces tools (MarkLogic) and would like to have fewer ways of tracking change 12:44:45 s/Present+Alex_Russel/Present+Alex_Russell/ 12:44:51 rrsagent, make minutes 12:44:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-xmlmemory-minutes.html Steven 12:45:17 Robin_La_F: we're not starting with a blank sheet, we have a proposal... 12:45:39 I don't say it's complete, but it represents maybe a person-year 12:46:01 rrsagent, make minutes 12:46:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-xmlmemory-minutes.html Steven 12:46:16 Robin_La_F: Principles 12:46:30 1. must be easy to get the latest version 12:47:03 [see http://www.w3.org/wiki/User_talk:Rlafonta ] 12:47:52 tpacbot has joined #xmlmemory 12:47:53 2. validation... if you have the latest document, and it's schema-valid, and undo the latest change, and that's schema-valid, it's OK 12:48:29 3. ability to group changes, e.g. changes from this version to that version 12:48:52 or if you delete a table row, an XML element, but deleting a column is harder, lots of changes 12:48:54 tpacbot has joined #xmlmemory 12:49:29 4. managing dependencies... e.g. 2 changes to a paragraph and then delete it, can't undo the changes unless you undo the paragraph first. 12:51:04 Liam: multiple dependency, e.g. I change a schema _and_ a document, tracking dependencies between documents 12:51:21 Robin_La_F: yes, I think that's OK 12:51:33 Jirka: not sure it's a real use case because e.g. docbook schema never changes 12:52:00 Jim: is this in scope, a higher-order binding, tracking between documents? 12:53:03 Robin_La_F: it's in scope in that the principle of validation would work, out of scope in that what validation might mean isn't part of this 12:53:59 Liam: different example, dependency between two chapters, always want the corresponding versions 12:54:23 Robin_La_F: our proposal is only about a single document; the relationship is part of the CMS 12:55:15 Daniel: syntactic version semantic validaton difference and only handle the syntax? 12:55:53 Robin_La_F: a content management system could handle both, e.g. using the same mechanism, but here we're looking at a single document. 12:56:29 Norm: experience suggests that doing this with a single document is hard enough, let's start with that! 12:56:39 Jim: reminded of Dana Florescu's Time Axis for XQuery 12:58:21 jalvinen has joined #xmlmemory 12:58:33 Liam: you can have a document that represented multi-document relationships and track changes in it. 12:58:40 s/can have/could have/ 12:58:51 Robin_La_F: proposal has two levels 12:59:08 1. sufficient to track any change but not always optimal 12:59:23 e.g. add and delete of text and attributes 13:00:39 2. add or remove elements without touching content; split and merge elements; move elements 13:01:05 Level 2 is a lot more complicated, but necessary in some situations 13:01:55 e.g. in level 2 you can split a paragraph, or merge two paragraphs 13:02:03 Jim: do the levels layer? 13:02:09 Robin_La_F: level 1 is a subset of level 2 13:02:20 and you can always convert a level 2 changelog and convert to level 1 13:02:45 Daniel: would it be fair to say that level 1 operaets at the DOM level and level 2 operates at the content level 13:03:22 s/operaet/operate/ 13:03:33 Daniel: example - ruby in Japanese. 13:04:30 Robin_La_F: there's a history & community in XML editor area of using processing instructions rather than namespaces, because it's ignored by schema validation 13:04:54 I think we can accommodate both of those if there's a defined [transformation between them]. 13:07:31 Robin_La_F: the 3rd area that comes in is, do we want an external representation or only in the document? 13:07:53 e.g. so I can send you the diffs. 13:08:03 Topic: Next Steps 13:08:26 Steven: should we recommend this as an important area for W3C to adopt? 13:08:32 Jim: I think it's a perfect CG candidate 13:09:53 Steven: a CG is fast, can create one in 15 minutes, but it doesn't get you a Recommendation 13:11:01 Alex: this is an important area for HTM 13:11:04 s/HTM/HTML/ 13:12:10 Liam: a WG can have liaisons with other groups. 13:13:08 Jim: worried that a WG might get pulled apart, a fast CG might be able to produce a coherent design 13:13:32 Jirka: a CG can also be joined by people not W3C Members 13:13:50 Daniel: DAV has relevence here too 13:13:57 s/relevence/relevance/ 13:15:04 want to make sure we don't preclude DAV that content management systems use today. 13:15:39 CONSENSUS: start with a CG 13:16:32 Jirka: and a paper at XML Prague in February would be great! 13:16:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-xmlmemory-minutes.html liam 13:17:48 CG: Change Management Markup Community Group 13:18:02 CFP for XML Prague is open till end of November http://www.xmlprague.cz/call-for-papers/ 13:20:54 http://www.w3.org/community/groups/proposed/#change 13:24:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-xmlmemory-minutes.html liam 13:24:22 jalvinen has left #xmlmemory 13:24:27 FtF at XML Prague 13:24:57 [adjourned] 13:25:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-xmlmemory-minutes.html liam 13:28:36 Norm has joined #xmlmemory 13:36:37 liam has joined #xmlmemory 13:37:59 I see no action items 14:06:00 RRSAgent has joined #xmlmemory 14:06:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-xmlmemory-irc 14:06:03 rrsagent, make minutes 14:06:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-xmlmemory-minutes.html Steven 14:08:06 rrsagent, make minutes 14:08:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-xmlmemory-minutes.html Steven 14:09:37 s/groups.proposed.#// 14:09:39 rrsagent, make minutes 14:09:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-xmlmemory-minutes.html Steven 14:39:14 Norm has joined #xmlmemory 14:39:22 Norm_ has joined #xmlmemory 14:52:01 Norm has joined #xmlmemory 14:52:08 Norm has joined #xmlmemory 15:45:16 Steven has joined #xmlmemory 15:45:40 CG now created http://www.w3.org/community/change/ 15:45:44 rrsagent, make minutes 15:45:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-xmlmemory-minutes.html Steven 15:45:45 MichaelC has joined #xmlmemory 16:13:34 Norm has joined #xmlmemory 16:15:57 liam has joined #xmlmemory 17:21:24 tpacbot has joined #xmlmemory 20:19:08 RRSAgent has joined #xmlmemory 20:19:08 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-xmlmemory-irc 20:46:48 liam has joined #xmlmemory