14:56:50 RRSAgent has joined #tr 14:56:50 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-tr-irc 14:56:55 Zakim has joined #tr 14:57:10 ScribeNick: Lachy 14:57:18 RRSAgent: make logs public 14:57:24 RRSAgent: make minutes 14:57:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-tr-minutes.html Lachy 14:58:27 ted has joined #tr 14:58:38 http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/ 14:58:55 yoshiaki has joined #tr 14:59:16 Topic: Future of W3C publishing process ( 14:59:18 Topic: Future of W3C publishing process 14:59:48 http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(1) 15:00:26 betehess has joined #tr 15:00:27 Travis has joined #tr 15:00:28 jgraham has joined #tr 15:00:34 scribenick: betehess 15:00:37 SimonPieters has joined #tr 15:00:37 stefanh has joined #tr 15:00:48 RRSAgent, please generate minutes 15:00:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-tr-minutes.html betehess 15:00:53 agenda? 15:00:56 q? 15:00:59 present+ Simon_Pieters 15:01:22 hiroki_ has joined #tr 15:01:28 present+ Alexandre Bertails 15:01:38 present +jgraham 15:02:50 present+ Lachy 15:03:13 present+ Hiroki Yamada 15:03:19 Present+ Travis_Leithead 15:03:19 chair: plh 15:03:20 present+ Ted Guild 15:03:24 present+ divya and anne 15:03:34 present+ Stefan_Hakansson 15:03:49 RRSAgent, please generate minutes 15:03:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-tr-minutes.html betehess 15:04:16 cygri_ has joined #tr 15:05:10 plh: this is about the future of #TR 15:05:15 ... not about the process itself 15:05:20 ... only about /TR pages 15:05:26 ... and how to publish stuff there 15:05:29 present+ Yoshiaki Fukami 15:05:37 ... not about new style either 15:05:47 edoyle has joined #tr 15:06:26 Lachy: so this exlucdes stuff re: WD< LC, etc. 15:06:33 s/WD steeve: actually, I'll be happy to talk about that after the session 15:07:05 Richard Cyganiak, DERI 15:07:06 Alexandre Bertails, W3C Systems Team 15:07:07 dom has joined #tr 15:07:17 plh: my goal is to get feedback 15:07:21 Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux 15:07:22 ... identify what we need to do 15:07:23 Ghislain has joined #tr 15:07:25 SteveZ has joined #tr 15:07:33 ... go away if you don't what /TR is 15:07:36 dbaron has joined #tr 15:07:39 s/don't/don't know/ 15:07:43 Josh_Soref has joined #tr 15:07:43 SteveZ is Steve Zilles 15:07:44 sandro has joined #tr 15:07:53 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:07:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-tr-minutes.html Josh_Soref 15:07:59 sandro has left #tr 15:08:01 ht has joined #tr 15:08:01 sandro has joined #tr 15:08:05 sandro has left #tr 15:08:08 present+ Josh_Soref 15:08:08 cabanier has joined #tr 15:08:11 present+ Henry S. Thompson 15:08:25 s/y S. T/y_S_T/ 15:08:26 RobinLaFontaine has joined #TR 15:08:27 Present+ David Baron 15:08:31 present+ Steve_Zilles 15:08:34 s/d B/d_B/ 15:08:37 ... http://www.w3.org/TR/ is the canonical URL 15:09:09 ... this has evolved over time 15:09:22 http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(1) 15:09:26 ... list technologies, status, date, title, etc. 15:09:31 http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(2) 15:09:34 http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(3) 15:09:37 ... provides several views to access specs 15:09:37 http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(4) 15:09:58 ... Submissions are not there, like other docs 15:10:01 sandro has joined #tr 15:10:04 Feedback: in the Netherlands the last name "Van Kesteren" is sorted using K, not V 15:10:15 ... the W3C publication process is a bit complex 15:10:17 (Probably easier to sort on first name.) 15:10:24 ... reflects the w3c process 15:10:30 +SandroHawke 15:10:41 ... sometimes you need to ask permission for transitions. 15:10:43 s/+/Present+ / 15:10:50 ... then you ask the webmaster for actual publication 15:10:51 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:10:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-tr-minutes.html Josh_Soref 15:11:02 ... he can say no at any point if doc is not ready 15:11:13 ... the webmaster also deals with the comm-team 15:11:18 ... to make sure they are ready 15:11:29 ... then he interacts with very old back-end 15:11:54 ... then it's finally published 15:12:05 ... in the meantime, the comm-team does announcements 15:12:14 ... eg. twitter, the AC, etc. 15:12:26 ... may depend on the kind of document as well 15:12:35 ArnaudLH has joined #tr 15:12:37 ... as an editor, it's not easy 15:12:39 http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(5) 15:12:44 http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(6) 15:12:50 ... I'll focus on informations in /TR 15:13:00 ... "this version" is immutable 15:13:12 ... a link to the doc itself 15:13:12 ... "latest version" 15:13:19 hsivonen has joined #tr 15:13:20 ... "previous version" 15:13:31 ... and now, new stuff, like "editor's draft" 15:13:36 ... (not required) 15:13:38 -> http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(7) WHO USES /TR? 15:14:14 wilhelm has joined #tr 15:14:18 ... who uses /TR, the web page? 15:14:27 ... do you go through this page to find stuff? 15:14:33 ... or maybe a search engine? 15:14:37 ... what about webdevs? 15:14:54 ... and sometimes, you want to know about other resources 15:15:12 ... my question: do you use it? how? why? if not, why? 15:15:30 Lachy: I use Google 15:15:32 ... just easier 15:15:41 ... I usually don't know what I'm looking for 15:15:45 q+ chaals 15:16:04 ... there are too much informations on the webpage 15:16:05 s|http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(1)|-> http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(1) THE FUTURE OF /TR| 15:16:05 s|http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(2)|-> http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(2) WHAT'S FOR TODAY?| 15:16:05 s|http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(3)|-> http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(3) WHAT'S /TR?| 15:16:05 s|http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(4)|-> http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(4) WHAT'S /TR?| 15:16:06 s|http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(5)|-> http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(5) PUBLICATION PROCESS AS OF TODAY (SIMPLIFIED)| 15:16:06 s|http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(6)|-> http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(6) WHAT'S IN /TR?| 15:16:10 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:16:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-tr-minutes.html Josh_Soref 15:16:13 Lachy: Sometimes I know the shortname, sometimes it's in my browser history 15:16:18 @@: also dev.w3.org 15:16:25 .... because I want the latest editor's draft 15:16:31 s/Topic: Future of W3C publishing process (// 15:16:34 tobie has joined #tr 15:16:41 hsivonen: I add site:dev.w3.org if I what the ED. 15:16:46 Lachy: depending on the spec, I may want the latest draft, or something in /TR 15:16:46 present+ Tobie_Langel 15:16:47 q+ to note that i'm looking to not find stale documents 15:17:08 Travis: some years ago, I was going to /TR 15:17:12 ... to see waht was done 15:17:20 ... as I didn't know the spec 15:17:22 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:17:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-tr-minutes.html Josh_Soref 15:17:24 ... dont' do that anymore 15:17:29 s/dont'/don't/ 15:17:34 ... I want to have the latest version 15:17:43 Travis: I want the ED, so I dont use /TR 15:17:50 vivia: if I want to find information, I use google 15:18:06 s/RRSAgent: make logs public// 15:18:12 ... but sometimes people point me to the editor's draft 15:18:12 s/RRSAgent: make minutes// 15:18:18 david: I used to use the /TR page as a summary 15:18:25 ... but can't find things in there anymore 15:18:30 +1 dbaron I stopped using /TR when it became dynamic 15:18:32 ... stop using it 15:18:34 present+ Richard_Cyganiak 15:18:35 ... too dynamic 15:18:40 ... so I'm using google now 15:18:47 pl: I don't use /TR either 15:18:56 dom: I use it sometimes 15:19:00 s/+ Alexandre Bertails/+ Alexandre_Bertails/ 15:19:11 chaals: I use Yandex now :-) 15:19:15 s/Hiroki Yamada/Hiroki_Yamada/ 15:19:26 s/Ted Guild/Ted_Guild/ 15:19:30 ... when I use it, it's when I want to give people a link to a handful of specs 15:19:33 ... like an overview 15:19:37 ... and for history stuff 15:19:39 s/divya and anne/divya, anne/ 15:19:50 ... I can see things by date order 15:19:57 s/Yoshiaki Fukami/Yoshiaki_Fukami/ 15:20:01 kotakagi has joined #tr 15:20:09 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:20:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-tr-minutes.html Josh_Soref 15:20:12 ... and I point people there when they have questions 15:20:26 chaals: one use is to point people at the progress of a group, or a set of related specs 15:20:31 ... eg. they want the REC version if there is one 15:20:38 present+ Peter_Linss 15:20:42 plh: what about HTML? 15:21:05 present+ Koichi_Takagi 15:21:05 chaals: depends on the issue 15:21:05 SimonSapin has joined #tr 15:21:11 chaals: I used autocomplete for the URL for the HTML5 draft 15:21:15 ... most of the time, it's dev 15:21:20 ... sometimes /TR version 15:21:24 (I use the single page HTML spec as a crash-test) 15:21:26 present+ Doug_Schepers 15:21:39 doug: some people told they always use editor'ED for tests 15:22:00 ... also, we have more ED than REC from the beginning 15:22:19 ht has joined #tr 15:22:24 i|I use Google|Topic: Who uses /TR| 15:22:25 cygri: I've used it twice in my life 15:22:35 ... to find what other specs where using RDF 15:22:41 More feedback: lots of people don't know what "TR" means 15:22:53 ... but still hard to figure out where the information is 15:23:10 ... can't find the right categories 15:23:17 present+ Lea_Verou 15:23:27 ... 2nd time, when I had to publish a FPWD, I had to find some extra information, like the group 15:23:34 present+ Robin_Berjon 15:23:37 robin: I use for one thing 15:23:49 s/robin:/darobin:/ 15:24:08 ... I'd really like a separate version of this page for ED 15:24:14 ... machine readable, not RDF please 15:24:30 fantaisi: it's not useful at all 15:24:33 present+ Elika_Etemad(fantasai) 15:24:40 ... not sure we need a separate page 15:24:47 ... it should be only about ED 15:24:51 s/fantaisi/fantasai/ 15:24:57 steeve: if I'm a user, do I want that? 15:25:05 ... things may be inconsistent 15:25:24 odinho_ has joined #tr 15:25:29 ... people in this room are talking to a particular audience 15:25:40 ... the audience is probably not the people in this room 15:25:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-tr-minutes.html odinho_ 15:26:02 doug: people should not read the specs 15:26:05 angry mob 15:26:06 fantaisi: would to clarify 15:26:10 s/people/developers/ 15:26:18 s/fantaisi:/fantasai:/G 15:26:30 ... speaking about the version the WG considers the people should look at is on /TR 15:26:50 ... for other WG, this is different 15:26:51 +1 fantasia: the version on TR should always be the version the WG thinks people should be looking at 15:27:20 [ applause ] 15:27:27 s/asia/asai/ 15:27:31 ... we should be able to point people at where the WG thinks they should look at 15:27:31 -> http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(8) /TR GOALS 15:27:59 plh: /TR is only for snapshots *today* 15:28:09 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:28:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-tr-minutes.html Josh_Soref 15:28:17 ... (approved by WG) 15:28:20 meeting: Future of W3C publishing process 15:28:36 ... other possibility, the latest version could be the thing that could be modified at will 15:28:52 ... but when I'm in LC, which one should I look at? 15:28:56 present+ Odin_Hørthe_Omdal 15:28:58 ... things can be moving 15:29:04 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:29:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-tr-minutes.html Josh_Soref 15:29:21 sandro: we could point people at the snapshot, not the latest version 15:29:48 @@: if it's the LC, it cannot be a moving target 15:29:54 ... people should not look at it 15:29:55 s/@@:/PeterL:/ 15:30:09 marcos: what's LC for? 15:30:14 PeterL: the process 15:30:26 marcos: does not have to be the stable doc 15:30:32 present+ Marcos_Caceres 15:30:34 ... only the lawyers need that 15:30:41 steeve: two uses for LC 15:30:42 annevk: You don't want to get the same feedback multiple times when it's been fixed. 15:30:49 ... 1. is for patent reviews 15:30:53 ... to see what can apply 15:30:59 ... requires stable doc 15:31:00 +1 annevk: If part of the comments are already addressed in the ED, you don't want people looking at the old text. 15:31:06 2. is for people to have something to review 15:31:10 ... and make comments 15:31:12 present+ Anssi_Kostiainen 15:31:21 ... they are interested in the conclusion 15:31:26 ... not the moving thing 15:31:26 Marcos has joined #tr 15:31:38 shepazu has joined #tr 15:31:38 ... snapshots are intended for people not in this room 15:31:43 q+ 15:31:47 hmm 15:31:51 ArnaudLH: wasting our time 15:31:56 ... people should be given the choice 15:31:58 q- 15:32:07 present+ Ashok_Malhotra 15:32:09 ... we should be telling people the right thing 15:32:14 ... we just not choose for them 15:32:17 ... should be easy 15:32:33 +1 ArnaudLH just provide all the information, and let people pick which version(s) they want to see 15:32:39 @@: don't think it's only for lawyers 15:32:48 s/@@/hsivonen/ 15:32:52 ... if you write a comment, just look in the spec if it's still accurate 15:32:58 ... you acn remove your comment 15:33:07 ... so snapshots are not useful 15:33:13 present+ Arnaud_Le_Hors 15:33:15 s/acn/can/ 15:33:34 ... if you give choice, there is a risk that they'll read the wrong one 15:33:42 marcos: we can look at the evidence 15:33:52 ... it's never been outside of the community 15:33:55 hsivonen: If you give people a choice, then you run the risk that New Hires will read the wrong one 15:34:09 ... I bet that comments are always coming from the community 15:35:13 @@: @ArnaudLH giving people the choice, URLs are passed around, and people may be pointed to the wrong spec 15:35:13 s/@@/dbaron/ 15:35:28 ... but I agree, we should be able to give the option 15:35:39 ... but people link to the specs all the time 15:35:59 ... @Henry, there is more value in snap than for lawyers 15:36:00 that sounds like a small matter of programming 15:36:10 ... when reading/writting comments for specs 15:36:21 ... as I want to point to a specific version of the spec 15:36:32 ... wants to speak about a specific paragraph 15:37:02 robin: don't thiink that snap are onlny for lawyers 15:37:11 ... I get feedback for implementors 15:37:36 present+ Anthony_Mirabella 15:37:37 ... so snapshot are useful 15:37:47 ... I like the idea we have to generate several versions 15:37:54 Snapshots don't have any better stability in terms of feature review... 15:38:02 You need annotations for features stability 15:38:05 ... we could make it so we detect if we have a fresher version of the spec 15:38:09 s/features/feature/ 15:38:49 Lachy: to david re: linking to specific version, revision number from VCS in the URL is enough 15:38:50 s/david/dbaron/ 15:39:10 +q 15:39:11 ... as an implementor, we have different people working on different sections of the spec 15:39:25 s/as/@SteveZ ... as/ 15:39:27 ... does not matter if it's LC for them, it's not relevant 15:39:37 ... in this case we ignore the fact it's LC 15:39:53 steeve: I accept the comment re: LC doe snot mean it's not finished 15:39:57 s/steeve/SteveZ/ 15:40:06 ... but in this case, could mean that you're not really in LC 15:40:29 ... specs are primarly for implementors 15:40:40 ... so the URL should be the most useful to them 15:40:54 s/onlny/only/ 15:40:56 ... could be reasonable to provide URLs to derivative 15:41:03 s/thiink/think/ 15:41:20 ... still, we should provide snapshots for people who want them 15:41:36 timeless has joined #tr 15:41:44 doug: the specs are hard, not for newbies 15:42:14 scribe: timeless 15:42:24 Travis: thinking about fantasai's place 15:42:34 ... having a place which is semi private 15:42:39 "development branch" 15:42:40 fantasai: a place where i can discuss on the ML 15:42:52 Travis: a place where she can have implementers try it out 15:42:59 ... we've made ED .... 15:43:11 darobin: half baked, confused 15:43:22 Marcos: i'd like to rename LC to Lawyer-Call instead of Last-Call 15:43:27 ... if we're always in a state of receiving comments 15:43:33 annevk: we can keep "LC" 15:43:41 darobin: some groups should randomly go to REC 15:43:47 jgraham: if you want a private scratch place 15:43:54 ... it sounds like you should use branches in VCS 15:43:55 q? 15:44:17 ack Marcos 15:44:31 sandro: i've always wanted to make publishing a WD a one-click 15:44:36 ... so ED appears on TR as a WD 15:44:45 ... maybe Editors or Chairs clicks that button 15:44:50 plh: nice transition to my next slide 15:45:03 fantasai: i'd probably like to push all typo fixes and similar fixes *immediately* to TR 15:45:12 with "minor changes" check box 15:45:13 peterl: you want the "minor changes" checkbox 15:45:20 fantasai: checked by default 15:45:26 ... in the CSS WG 15:45:34 ... the process of requesting a publication from resolution 15:45:43 ... causes people who were procrastinating to look at this NOW 15:45:54 ... so there are aspects of publishing a snapshot for every change 15:46:06 ... i want /TR up to date enough that people don't feel the need to look at my scratch 15:46:08 maybe "editorial changes" 15:46:11 darobin: +1 15:46:17 -> http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/1031-tr-plh/#(9) PUBLICATION PROCESS 15:46:29 plh: is the current process painful for you? 15:46:36 ... is pubrules painful? 15:46:38 [ laughter ] 15:46:45 plh: referring to sandro 15:46:47 ... how often 15:46:54 ... i've heard w/in 5 minutes 15:47:00 ashok: i work w/ other SDOs 15:47:02 ... I work w/ OSS 15:47:05 ... UMTF 15:47:11 q+ 15:47:13 ... with those guys, you author a document 15:47:15 ... in Word, PDF 15:47:18 ... and upload it 15:47:20 ... with W3 15:47:31 ... it takes me as long to publish as it takes to write it 15:47:33 [ laughter ] 15:47:41 ashok: i can't publish what i edit 15:47:46 ... it has to go through what i process 15:47:50 ... there's this CVS business 15:48:00 ... why is this that difficult? 15:48:21 wilhelm: at the current stage 15:48:25 ... webdriver is in 15:48:27 ... i want a commit hook 15:48:31 ... editor commits 15:48:34 ... we never use /TR 15:48:37 ... what's there is wrong 15:48:44 dbaron: i'd like to offer some data 15:48:58 plinss: 1000010000 15:49:01 [ laughter ] 15:49:10 dbaron: longest period of time from a WG Resolution to publish a doc on TR 15:49:21 ... to actual publication is 86 days 15:49:26 ... only the ones i've been involved in 15:49:35 ... Apr 24, 2007, to July 19, 2007 15:49:42 ... the longest in the past 6 months is 50 days 15:49:44 kotakagi has joined #tr 15:49:48 ... Aug 1, 2012 to Sept 20, 2012 15:49:53 ... WG Res to Publication 15:50:00 ... this is not abnormal 15:50:13 [what were the causes of the delays, though?] 15:50:15 ArnaudLH: i think pubrules are not too painful 15:50:19 ... i'd like to publish as often as i'd want 15:50:24 ... i want to completely control publication 15:50:31 ... not have to try to get team contact/webteam/sysadmin 15:50:34 ... i want a button 15:50:40 ... make it happen in a few minutes 15:50:43