IRC log of respimg on 2012-10-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:38:04 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
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12:40:48 [lstorset]
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12:41:56 [vhardy]
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12:42:29 [vhardy]
Are the slides available on-line?
12:42:35 [Cyril]
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12:42:56 [lstorset]
Art direction use case: crop image differently depending on how much space you have.
12:42:57 [lstorset]
Design breakpoints: You get pixelation or JPEG artifacts at certain points. Designers adapt the design to different breakpoints and adapt the images to that.
12:43:01 [Cyril]
RRSAgent, make logs public
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12:43:24 [lstorset]
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12:44:01 [lstorset]
On printed documents, half-toned pictures look bad, while text is crisp
12:44:36 [jalvinen]
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12:44:45 [lstorset]
In print, communicating with color is meaningless
12:45:09 [jalvinen]
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12:45:19 [lstorset]
can't read a chart with any certainty
12:45:35 [odinho_]
ScribeNick: lstorset
12:46:09 [lstorset]
More aesthetically pleasing to show different image in portrait and landscape mode
12:46:26 [lstorset]
media- and feature-specific responses
12:46:50 [lstorset]
Most people won't notice, but good for TVs: When app is scaled up to a dimension where images don't keep up, they get badly pixelated
12:47:01 [lstorset]
You want to replace image with higher quality
12:47:20 [lstorset]
Another use case is APIs
12:47:30 [lstorset]
Canvas, gUM(), MediaCapture
12:47:50 [tpacbot]
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12:48:02 [lstorset]
frex, on IOS 6 and Android you can take panoramas out of the box, 22 Mpix imgs
12:48:11 [lstorset]
want to show specific bits to specific devices
12:48:19 [lstorset]
Final case: Image formats
12:48:26 [lstorset]
12:48:35 [lstorset]
Not universally supported, but represents >20% of market
12:48:40 [lstorset]
Opera, Chrome
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12:49:00 [lstorset]
With Windows 8, JPEG-XR to many clients, depending on uptake of that os
12:49:13 [lstorset]
Can't target w/o server-side solution, though
12:49:22 [lstorset]
Can't test whether browser supports img. format out of the box
12:49:29 [lstorset]
Also for futur eformats
12:49:32 [lstorset]
hard to add new formats
12:49:35 [lstorset]
to the web
12:49:51 [lstorset]
<video> does provide a solution, but not pretty
12:50:06 [lstorset]
because codec war happen to be going on, and this solution was a fix
12:50:11 [lstorset]
could be useful for imgs as well.
12:50:28 [lstorset]
This is what the CG has looked on in the past year
12:50:40 [lstorset]
Iterative process to define use cases
12:50:56 [lstorset]
Initially heavily focused on bandwidth, but we as CG can't address that.
12:51:17 [lstorset]
Responses from e.g. WHATWG with srcset
12:51:23 [shepazu]
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12:51:33 [lstorset]
<picture> works like <video>
12:51:54 [lstorset]
[btw, Marcos1 said all the above]
12:52:04 [lstorset]
(code sample for <picture>)
12:52:11 [JohnAlbin]
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12:52:27 [lstorset]
legacy-browser fallback <img> within <picture>; accessible text
12:52:37 [lstorset]
Could throw in ARIA
12:52:41 [lstorset]
12:52:45 [lstorset]
Comments about use cases?
12:53:00 [lstorset]
??: …
12:53:12 [lstorset]
Alt has problems, e.g. with accesibility. Can't add markup structures
12:53:16 [lstorset]
can't set direction of text
12:53:22 [lstorset]
without Unicode points
12:53:30 [lstorset]
can't express role of an image
12:53:36 [lstorset]
i18n issue is a big one.
12:54:11 [lstorset]
??: Why would you want additional ontent for an image?
12:54:27 [lstorset]
hober: image with tabular data would need a table to reprsent it accessibly
12:54:38 [Cyril]
12:54:47 [lstorset]
vhardy: Slides online?
12:54:59 [lstorset]
Marcos1: will be, will fix them after presenting tomorrow
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vhardy: One problem with respimg. preloading, will you address this?
12:55:22 [hellogeri]
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12:55:23 [lstorset]
Marcos1: yes
12:55:55 [lstorset]
krit: UC is showing different parts of img depending on screen size is solved by MQ and CSS images 3
12:55:58 [Norbert]
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12:56:11 [lstorset]
Marcos1: You need <div> tags. We'd like proper markup
12:56:33 [lstorset]
?? telecom: Reminds me of responsive videos/adaptive streaming
12:56:54 [lstorset]
Marcos1: Already solved for a while is my impression
12:57:06 [rotsuya]
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12:57:19 [lstorset]
… solutions are tailored for online/offline, don't need to download 20 differet versions
12:57:25 [lstorset]
… Also applicable to e-books
12:57:32 [lstorset]
… videos in e-books
12:57:55 [lstorset]
??: Maybe things can be ported from videos. Could select image from pbandwidth.
12:58:26 [lstorset]
??b: Videos can be much bigger. Can request ranges over time. 1-2 videos per page. With images, many more.
12:58:29 [shepazu]
♫R-E-S-P-I-M-G, Find out what it means to me, R-E-S-P-I-M-G, Take care, <img> ♫
12:58:37 [lstorset]
… re: performance better to send only one request per image
12:59:04 [chaals]
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12:59:12 [lstorset]
… if two reqs per img – main problem is fetching.
12:59:31 [lstorset]
… If we had format to represent multiple resolutions (jpeg2000), problem is still fetching mechanism
12:59:37 [lstorset]
… need to fetch img. header with bytemap
12:59:42 [lstorset]
… then the actual content
12:59:58 [lstorset]
… May be other solutions, I am working on some things
13:00:20 [lstorset]
?? telecom: SVG is working on mapping and tiling images.
13:00:31 [lstorset]
… Changing layouts at the same time?
13:00:41 [lstorset]
Marcos1: odinho will cover the latter
13:00:56 [lstorset]
chaals: Adapt to videos as they are downloadinng. imgs are single hit.
13:01:15 [lstorset]
… if imgs were downloaded in stream, could use video solution
13:01:32 [Cyril]
s/?? telecom/Cyril Concolato/
13:01:36 [chaals]
[but they aren't]
13:01:48 [lstorset]
Dong Yong?: Another UC is stereoscopic displays
13:01:57 [Cyril]
s/??/Cyril Concolato/
13:02:21 [lstorset]
odinho: Don't want lots of negotiation with server-side, doesn't scale. Want logic in client.
13:02:38 [lstorset]
13:02:41 [lstorset]
Two proposals
13:02:52 [lstorset]
Very different at a fundamental level, but somewhat hard to see it.
13:03:12 [lstorset]
Many UCs, I'm focusing on having different size pictures and don't want huge pictures under the fold
13:03:39 [lstorset]
Difference between srcset and picture, is that scset is shorter, declarative and UA may choose algorithm. The latter is important.
13:03:55 [lstorset]
srcset only gives hints, does not tell the ua what to do.
13:04:03 [lstorset]
picture is more powerful, has known behavior, not a hint.
13:04:38 [lstorset]
… If your user is extremely interested in small image sizes due to expensive data, the page author won't send the user what the user wants
13:05:02 [lstorset]
… Why don't authors like MQs?
13:05:19 [lstorset]
… Telling ua exactly what to do and how.
13:05:34 [krit1]
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13:05:57 [lstorset]
… uas may want to do more smart stuff in the future. A small browser with specific user group may want to behave in another way than what the author thought about.
13:06:09 [lstorset]
… 2x–like selection is not enough
13:06:16 [lstorset]
… (from <picture>)
13:06:44 [lstorset]
… NOt only about swithing resolutions. On my phone a 2x dpi display
13:07:10 [lstorset]
… will fetch the big picture, even if small display doesn't benefit from it
13:07:43 [lstorset]
… print customization is possible with MQs
13:07:52 [lstorset]
[code sample]
13:08:14 [lstorset]
<picture> <source media="min-width…">
13:08:19 [lstorset]
… same with srcset
13:08:47 [lstorset]
… <picture> needs an extra line for media=print
13:08:57 [lstorset]
… That's a big problem. Both because it prevents innovation
13:09:10 [lstorset]
… e.g. "browsing" with printer
13:09:28 [lstorset]
… high dpi won't be visible
13:09:40 [lstorset]
… If the ua knows which image is biggest, it can just fetch that, ignoring hints
13:10:16 [lstorset]
Marcos1: I don't understand the ex. If I had a 10x img, how do I tell it to use that for printing?
13:10:48 [lstorset]
odinho: An even bigger picture
13:10:49 [lstorset]
13:11:16 [lstorset]
… The 10x img won't be downloaded by desktop and mobile browser
13:11:35 [lstorset]
… Proposed algorithm won't take anything bigger than it's at
13:12:09 [lstorset]
marcos: Want something between mega-quality an dlow quality. (Bit of a nitpick)
13:12:46 [lstorset]
… Maybe not a disconnect, but different approach for design perspective. Designers are used to pixel-level control. Maybe not ideal, but here thye do have to give up control.
13:12:54 [lstorset]
… <picture> gives absolute control, srcset hints
13:13:29 [lstorset]
… The risk I see in the future is that srcset gets used, devs notice that when scaling window, this hint is not responded to.
13:13:42 [odinho_]
13:13:48 [Zakim]
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13:13:48 [lstorset]
… "My image is not showing. I'm going back to javascript"
13:13:52 [odinho_]
13:14:15 [lstorset]
… devs might use what they perceive works
13:14:23 [hober]
ack odinho_
13:14:39 [lstorset]
odinho: note: we now have a queue
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13:14:55 [lstorset]
… I think if there's an easier solution, then some people reverting to JS is ok
13:15:02 [lstorset]
… We can't really stop that, not even now
13:15:23 [lstorset]
… ppl are doing crazy stuff on the web. That's how it is and works. But most pages don't go crazy in every part of th epage
13:15:43 [hober]
13:15:47 [lstorset]
… As long as the responsive solution is easier than JS, most people will use the easy way out.
13:15:58 [lstorset]
… Unless extremely interested, and those ppl will do whatever anyway.
13:15:59 [odinho_]
ack hober
13:16:18 [lstorset]
hober: These features aren't being used in isolation.
13:16:27 [lstorset]
… People can do something exotic in 20% case
13:16:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate odinho_
13:16:53 [lstorset]
… Also, Many of respimg challenges can be addressed with other platform features: CSS filters and shaders, svg … …
13:17:03 [lstorset]
… Scope of the problem here is limited to bitmap imgs
13:17:23 [hober]
ack hober
13:17:27 [lstorset]
… We might do authors a disservice by designing something that they use instead of other, omore suitable features
13:17:33 [Cyril]
I agree with hober
13:18:00 [lstorset]
krit: You said Authors will prefer <picture> over srcset, is that […] CG
13:18:26 [lstorset]
Marcos: CG has express preferences and requirements. Not prescriptive of a particular solution.
13:18:38 [lstorset]
… want to make cool apps and please users
13:18:42 [odinho_]
13:18:44 [lstorset]
krit1: Have prioritiy list?
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13:18:49 [vhardy]
13:18:51 [lstorset]
marcos: Look at website
13:19:01 [lstorset]
… are using RFC keywords
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13:19:25 [lstorset]
vhardy: a step back: CSS spec addresses multi-resolutions
13:19:41 [lstorset]
… these are semantic images and how to describe them
13:19:50 [lstorset]
… Have you had feedback from a11y people?
13:19:59 [lstorset]
… Problem halfway between semantic and presentation
13:20:15 [odinho_]
ack vhardy
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13:20:40 [Travis]
13:20:45 [lstorset]
Marcos: Not specifically. Sent to HTML group where a11y is well-represented. Feedback from various people. Haven't gotten explicit feedback from more than from those in the CG. We are now seeking more.
13:20:55 [lstorset]
… srcset bypasses the problem by just extending <img>
13:21:13 [lstorset]
??b: Not just a question of semantics and whether img in CSS or HTML
13:21:15 [Marcos]
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13:21:29 [lstorset]
… Big difference is that HTML is content, can change day to day/minute to minute. CSs is constant and cacheable
13:21:42 [lstorset]
… if you start putting content imgs in css, can no longer cache effectively.
13:21:54 [hober]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:22:02 [lstorset]
… re: prefetching: Solution must work with preloader
13:22:17 [lstorset]
… e.g. WebKit's preload scanner
13:22:20 [lstorset]
… currently it does
13:22:31 [lstorset]
13:23:33 [lstorset]
… demo prepared by CG
13:23:52 [lstorset]
said the above
13:24:15 [lstorset]
yoav: Set of imgs: mobile img, wide mobile, desktop, hi-res, fallback
13:24:15 [odinho_]
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13:24:59 [lstorset]
… Added 2s CSS fetch time to this case
13:25:13 [lstorset]
… only single wide mobile image is being preloaded before rendering kicks in
13:25:29 [lstorset]
… problem with current prototype is that fallback img doesn't get preloaded, only when parsed
13:25:34 [lstorset]
… a WIP
13:26:23 [lstorset]
… prototype does not react to resizing event, but once resized, the right source should be chosen
13:26:31 [lstorset]
MArcos: Prototype is at least functional
13:26:42 [lstorset]
… not ideal, not how we envision, but making inroads
13:26:48 [lstorset]
… Just To play with idaes
13:26:59 [hober]
The srcset attribute is currently specified in and and comments are welcome on and; please email with your thoughts & suggestions.
13:27:04 [lstorset]
… Want to look at hwhole problem space to find solutions. Quite helpful to have this discussion here.
13:27:24 [lstorset]
… Understanding from perspective of community and browser vendors. Hopefully those weilll become one and the same.
13:27:35 [lstorset]
odinho: 80%/20% concept is important
13:27:56 [lstorset]
… We also need to look at those UCs. I think quite a lot of our UCs are in the 20% case
13:28:20 [lstorset]
… Need something really easy and nice for 80%, but 20 % should be there too
13:28:23 [lstorset]
…maybe later
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13:29:11 [lstorset]
yoav: not sure which are 80 % and which 20% for you, but re: preloading, all current respimg hacks suffer from lack of cacheing, disable prefetching or fetch twice
13:29:31 [lstorset]
Travis: How does each proposal address art direction UC?
13:29:37 [lstorset]
… Multiple copies on the server?
13:29:40 [lstorset]
Marcos: yes
13:29:51 [lstorset]
hober: Most cases you serve one asset and clip with CSS
13:30:10 [lstorset]
Marcos: As long as you have srcset you can apply CSS to it.
13:30:16 [lstorset]
[missed a question]
13:30:25 [odinho_]
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ack Travis
13:30:28 [lstorset]
Marcos: ONce you have content, you can clip with CSS
13:30:40 [lstorset]
??a: Must work without CSS
13:30:50 [lstorset]
(time's up)
13:30:56 [lstorset]
chaals: no, you're over the time!
13:31:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate odinho_
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13:50:04 [odinho_]
ack Marcos1
13:50:08 [odinho_]
ack Marcos
13:50:24 [odinho_]
Title: Responsive Images
13:51:03 [odinho_]
Date: Halloween
13:51:12 [Marcos1]
13:51:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate odinho_
13:53:01 [Marcos1]
topic: Responsive Images\
13:54:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate odinho_
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14:03:00 [odinho_]
RRSAgent: stop