10:05:05 RRSAgent has joined #offline 10:05:05 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-offline-irc 10:06:02 tomoyuki has joined #offline 10:06:10 tokamoto has joined #offline 10:07:05 Arnaud has joined #offline 10:07:54 Alex Russel: There are salvageable parts in AppCache, but we are more interested in kernelizing. 10:08:21 adrianba_ has joined #offline 10:08:30 Alex Russel: Create seperable capabilites - 'camp' on URL space. 10:08:31 paul-hw has joined #offline 10:08:44 Alex Russel: Atomically cache a group of resources. 10:08:49 chaals has joined #offline 10:08:52 richt has joined #offline 10:09:24 Alex Russel: Make it more declarative, allow developers to group resources. 10:09:46 Alex Russel: These are good things we would like to reserve. 10:10:15 Alex Russel: Disadvantage: it works on the level of HTML resources. 10:10:29 schuki has joined #offline 10:11:48 Alex Russel: Describe an AppCache in terms of primitives needed and then provide them as independend units. 10:12:36 Juhani has joined #offline 10:13:25 Alex Russel: There is no 'life cycle' for a link - whatever is done is 'magic' in the browser as far as application and user is concerned. Not well defined. 10:13:44 kotakagi has joined #offline 10:13:51 NOTE: Number of attendees in this session: 46 10:14:05 DKA has joined #offline 10:14:24 jsoh has joined #offline 10:14:36 Jirka has joined #offline 10:15:03 nwidell has joined #offline 10:15:26 Alex Russel: Should make large parts of AppCache optional and provide individual functions underneath it. 10:15:34 jsoh has joined #offline 10:15:35 Cris has joined #offline 10:16:00 Alex Russel: Create independend app cache groups and version and handle them independently. 10:17:50 K2 has joined #offline 10:18:02 leif has joined #offline 10:18:18 Alex Russel: App cache puts your app in a shell - fundamentally different from normal web where a link can take you anywhere. Currently AppCache allows you only to stay within your shell, good luck if you try to go out of that. 10:19:21 tobie has joined #offline 10:20:05 Alex Russel: @@: Does that work similar to the online cache handling? 10:20:17 FYI, some recent Fixing AppCache CG meeting notes may be useful for participants in this room: http://www.w3.org/community/fixing-appcache/wiki/Meeting_notes_14_August_2012 10:20:28 Alex Russel: Well, conceptionally yes. 10:20:50 s/Alan Russel: @@:/@@:/ 10:20:51 richt: or better yet: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache and https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache-london 10:21:04 efullea has joined #offline 10:21:07 yep. thx tobie. 10:21:43 One of the way to do offline app is the widget stack or equivalent application stacks that browsers have. 10:22:05 Widget apps are inherently self-contained. 10:22:37 How do you take the widget-typr runtime and make it deal with more appcache based apps? 10:23:06 Why can't wie just put all the resources in a file, zip thhem and call them a widget. 10:23:55 Jonas Sicking: Firefox basically does that. Either you have a zip or you point to a manifest which in turn points to the resources. 10:24:15 Jonas Sicking: To the user these behave the same. 10:24:50 Jonas Sicking: Basically it's just caching stuff that's normally on the web. Individually linkable/accessible URLs. 10:25:50 Jonas Sicking: Side effect: Each application is more sandboxed than running it directly from the web, which can be confusing. A ZIP file is conceptually recognizeably more different. 10:26:55 Jonas Sicking: People have more understanding that you put stuff in a ZIP file and only stuff in that ZIP file will be available offline. 10:27:38 Jonas Sicking: App cache makes it hard to sign resources - way too conplicated and fragile. 10:27:54 Jonas Sicking: Signing really only works properly on ZIP files. 10:28:09 Is the problem going all over the web and collect signatures? 10:28:48 Jonas Sicking: Partly. But also you need to have the signatures somewhere and app caches don't have proper extensions to allow for that. 10:29:39 Jonas Sicking: Also, we wanted to have third-party signature. Meant that you had to send the resources to a third party, get signature back and put it in app cache. 10:30:03 Jonas Sicking: Gets very awkward quickly. 10:30:27 Ashok: Are there other ways of doing offline apps? 10:30:46 Javi__CTIC_ has joined #offline 10:31:10 Alex Russel: Two issues - who do I refer to applications. What is the way to get to resources. 10:31:40 tidoust has joined #offline 10:31:41 Alex Russel: Both are independent. 10:31:55 RRSAgent, draft minutes 10:31:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-offline-minutes.html tidoust 10:32:37 @@: Possible also to use file system. Example: Opera Unite used to have a file system API. 10:32:37 RRSAgent, make logs public 10:33:11 @@: Different from IndexDB or local storage - you can share with other applications and non-web stuff. 10:33:20 s/@@/Charles McCathieNevile/ 10:33:51 @@: Makes it less painfull for applications to share something, with the user controlling who gets the access/ 10:34:06 I think this response from Mozilla may shed light on the File System access and its issues: https://hacks.mozilla.org/2012/07/why-no-filesystem-api-in-firefox/ 10:34:09 Ashok: How do you sync your data? 10:34:16 ...that @chaals was talking about. 10:34:49 Ashok: Typically this is a very difficult project - moved from this to this and lost all my data. 10:35:07 Alex: In the short run we leave it to app authors to get it right. Not a very good solution. 10:36:18 Alex Russel: The good thing with widget-like approaches is that it doesn't give you the illusion that you just make a web page offline-able. When you sit down and type the manifest file, you know that you do something different from that. 10:37:35 Jonas Sicking: We wanted to make sure that we put enough additions to the spec to handle things, but we knew there would be no way to sync user data across storage. If we tried to do that, we would just make sure that we scrambled.destoryed user data. 10:38:02 s/make sure/ensure/ 10:38:16 s/scrambled destroyed/ scrambled or destroyed/ 10:38:52 @@: Basic problem with sync is that it is easy to sync data, the problem is to sync which bits in a structure with which? 10:39:17 @@: When should the app data overwrite/update the local storage. 10:39:39 @@: Has been covered and solved lots of times, but no tools available in web architecture. 10:40:05 Ashok: Finally conflicts need to be pushed back to the apps and solved there, which is hard to do. 10:40:09 leif has joined #offline 10:40:53 Alex: You don't sync the state of the database, you sync on the logs. 10:41:31 Alex: The tricky thing is to find out (after time sync between instances) which is the last high level operation that caused a change. 10:43:36 Alex: The situation is even worse than Ashok describes. Handling of ViewStates. There are frameworks that create a data model and use viewstate essentially as a rendered, so sync needs to be within model, not the DOM. 10:44:22 Alex: An application needs to communicate model changes not just the markup change effects resulting from that. 10:45:46 RRSAgent, make minutes 10:45:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-offline-minutes.html Arnaud 10:46:19 Alex: Unless you are having a model or architecture there is no clear consensuns what we are really taking offline - a page? data? functionality? 10:47:08 @@: Maybe we could define an offline vs. online state or even a mixed state where an app knows which resources are available in an individual state. 10:47:47 @@: An app in a car might have online/offline states with the same application but different resources available. 10:48:19 Alex: Tricky - what if you are in a tunnel. In the two minutes of TCP/IP time out - what is your state? 10:48:48 @@: Might just need a small bit of code to be added. 10:49:04 Alex: I'll be waiting for your small bit of code. 10:49:11 @@: Might not be that small. 10:49:47 Wonsuk has joined #offline 10:50:15 Alex: If you are building an app, you should be building on local data primarily with other resources being an add-on. Basically the (working) definition of an app vs. a web page. 10:50:27 Ashok: We're rnning short on time. 10:50:41 Ashok: Might be some proposals for improving app cache. 10:50:48 Ashok: But maybe not. 10:51:35 Jaques: I would like to see examples for the tools helping with state sync and similar tasks. 10:51:51 Jacques: Could the export provide a list of examples? 10:52:11 @@: I'll write something and someone will be so annoyed at this that they fix it. 10:52:15 Javi has joined #offline 10:52:16 Ashok: Thanks! 10:52:46 @@: I'll put it on the TPAC wiki (whatever the page is/offline). 10:52:57 RRSAgent, make minutes 10:52:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-offline-minutes.html Arnaud 10:53:11 Ashok: Closing meeting. 10:53:27 jalvinen has joined #offline 10:53:44 rrsagent, pointer? 10:53:44 See http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-offline-irc#T10-53-44 10:55:34 bradee-oh has joined #offline 10:58:31 Wonsuk has left #offline 11:00:08 jalvinen has left #offline 11:21:00 chaals has joined #offline 11:21:05 chaals1 has joined #offline 11:48:11 tokamoto has joined #offline 12:11:29 bradee-oh has joined #offline 12:13:26 tomoyuki has joined #offline 12:21:03 adrianba has joined #offline 12:25:07 adrianba has left #offline 12:26:04 tokamoto has joined #offline 12:28:06 richt has joined #offline 12:28:48 bradee-oh has joined #offline 12:30:28 Arnaud has joined #offline 12:30:37 Arnaud has left #offline 12:31:17 yamaday has joined #offline 12:37:24 richt has left #offline 12:40:41 tidoust has joined #offline 12:52:11 KenjiBX_ has joined #offline 12:53:04 chaals has joined #offline 12:58:15 kotakagi has joined #offline 13:23:32 tokamoto has joined #offline 13:31:53 tidoust has joined #offline 13:33:09 bradee-oh has joined #offline 13:59:10 DKA has joined #offline 13:59:16 DKA has left #offline 14:28:00 tokamoto has joined #offline 14:39:46 yamaday has joined #offline 14:43:08 tokamoto has joined #offline 14:48:43 tokamoto has joined #offline 14:49:11 tokamoto has joined #offline 14:55:38 yamaday has joined #offline 15:02:27 tidoust has joined #offline 15:03:51 bradee-oh has joined #offline 15:09:26 tokamoto has joined #offline 15:13:48 kotakagi has joined #offline 15:17:39 kotakagi has joined #offline 15:19:15 kotakagi has left #offline 15:49:44 kotakagi has joined #offline 15:59:30 tokamoto has joined #offline 16:09:50 tomoyuki has joined #offline 16:17:35 tidoust has joined #offline 16:25:57 chaals has joined #offline