IRC log of ld-dev on 2012-10-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to
13:33:27 [tidoust]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:33:47 [tidoust]
Meeting: Linked Data for Web Developers (TPAC breakout session)
13:33:55 [tidoust]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate tidoust
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate adrianba
13:37:25 [JeniT]
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13:37:32 [cygri]
... The feeds come from a variety of content providers.
13:37:38 [betehess_]
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13:37:56 [cygri]
... Properties (keys, etc.) used in the feed are not the same across services
13:37:56 [betehess]
present+ Alexandre Bertails
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Present+ Adrian_Bateman
13:38:31 [trueg]
present+ Sebastian Trueg
13:38:33 [Ruben]
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13:38:34 [cygri]
... To keep apps simple, I need things to be represented the same way no matter where they come from
13:38:44 [develD]
present+ Norman Richter
13:39:02 [cygri]
cygri: present+ Richard Cyganiak
13:39:05 [Ruben]
present+ Ruben Verborgh
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13:39:18 [betehess]
13:39:30 [betehess]
RRSAgent, please generate minutes
13:39:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate betehess
13:39:36 [SteveS]
Present+ Steve Speiche
13:39:39 [cygri]
tidoust: So as an app developer, we wrap the difference between services away in an internal API
13:39:46 [cygri]
... normalising the different feeds
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13:39:53 [betehess]
chair: tidoust
13:39:56 [oberger]
did he mention semantics ?
13:40:26 [cygri]
... I assume that most web app developers are facing similar situations
13:40:53 [SteveS]
13:40:55 [Arnaud1]
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13:41:08 [cygri]
... So it would be good if content providers did things the same way
13:41:11 [oberger]
Present+ Olivier Berger
13:41:19 [cygri]
... Linked data is the response to this problem.
13:41:43 [develD]
13:41:54 [develD]
(to cygry)
13:42:33 [cygri]
... I see two promising initiatives
13:42:50 [cygri]
... 1. Linked data platform WG
13:42:52 [develD]
i'm interested in to put rdf into a feed
13:42:58 [gabriel]
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13:43:07 [martinAlvarez]
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13:43:09 [cygri]
... 2. JSON-LD
13:43:15 [oberger]
13:43:23 [cygri]
... JSON-LD started as community group, then taken up by RDF-WG
13:43:25 [develD]
i'm interested in to use pubsubhubbub with web access control
13:44:12 [cygri]
... JSON-LD allows using JSON as usual, with a little bit of magic (a context) and resolve issues of different representation
13:44:19 [betehess]
13:44:46 [cygri]
betehess: Alexandre Bertails, W3C Systems team
13:44:53 [cygri]
ack betehess
13:45:06 [cygri]
... I had exactly the same issue when starting to work on a new platform at W3C
13:45:20 [cygri]
... had to deal with lots of streams of data, different things talking to each other
13:45:30 [cygri]
... Build lots of APIs, web services?
13:45:44 [cygri]
... Decided to just use RDF
13:46:08 [cygri]
... But at this time there was no clear way of doing this
13:46:38 [cygri]
... At this time, IBM made a submission to W3C, describing one way of handling data
13:46:49 [cygri]
... Statements, HTTP URIs
13:46:59 [oberger]
LDP is not ready yet
13:47:13 [cygri]
... JSON is great because works in the browser easily
13:47:36 [cygri]
... Define in one place your terms
13:47:51 [cygri]
... As a developer I still see problems
13:48:54 [cygri]
... SPARQL is great, but with LDP ...
13:49:11 [cygri]
[scribe didn't catch the point, betehess may want to add it here]
13:49:43 [oberger]
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13:50:21 [cygri]
Alexandre Morgeaut: (sp?) JSON-LD vs. JSON Schema?
13:50:53 [Ruben]
13:50:57 [betehess]
my main point: LDP is great but something is missing to speak about some usual datastructures that one would want to encode in RDF
13:51:00 [cygri]
tidoust: JSON Schema is an IETF draft that does for JSON what XML Schema does for XML
13:51:29 [cygri]
... JSON Schema is fairly simple because JSON is simpler than XML
13:51:58 [cygri]
... In JSON-LD you add a “context”; in JSON Schema you define a schema; right now there's no bridge
13:52:10 [cygri]
timbl: JSON Schema or XML Schema are in the document structure worl
13:52:11 [betehess]
agenda+ rdflib.js and other RDF APIs for WebDevs
13:52:12 [SteveS]
@betehess what data structures are you referring? saying there should be something to help describe the shape of resources
13:52:18 [cygri]
... it's not in the linked data world
13:52:48 [cygri]
... RDF Schema shouldn't be called Schema by the way as it doesn't talk about document structure but structures in the real world
13:52:56 [cygri]
... RDF people haven't addressed doc structure
13:53:05 [cygri]
... There is no RDF graph constraint language
13:53:11 [betehess]
SteveS: on the top of my head, I need: set, ordered list, indexed list, map, tuple, options, either (this denotes alternatives)
13:53:21 [cygri]
... Nothing that allows you to say: “If you stick a value in here, then you can submit it there”
13:53:23 [yvesr]
well, you could argue SPARQL is one?
13:53:31 [cygri]
... That would be interesting and would allow doing evaluation
13:53:56 [cygri]
ivan: (Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead)
13:54:04 [cygri]
... We consider data validation
13:54:16 [cygri]
... We are seriously considering a workshop around that issue. No commitment!
13:54:32 [cygri]
cygri: Yes, we want that
13:54:42 [cygri]
SteveS: Steve Speicher, IBM
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13:55:08 [cygri]
... We created this vocabulary that describes the shape of a resource description
13:55:10 [betehess]
13:55:12 [cygri]
... based on SPARQL ASK
13:55:20 [cygri]
Arnaud: Arnaud Le Hors, IBM, LDP WG Chair
13:55:38 [oberger]
13:55:46 [cygri]
... XML selling point was that it doesn't constrain the data model
13:55:47 [yvesr]
+1 on SPARQL ASK for validation purposes
13:56:02 [cygri]
... But not really true, we ended up defining a data model to program against
13:56:09 [cygri]
... that's the XML Infoset
13:56:19 [cygri]
... RDF starts with the data model and then a bunch of syntaxes
13:56:32 [cygri]
... JSON-LD gives a JSON-friendly way of interacting with RDF
13:56:37 [oberger]
what about Turtle and web developers ?
13:56:39 [cygri]
... So very different from JSON Schema
13:56:56 [oberger]
betehess, are we supposed to use the queue ?
13:57:00 [cygri]
Alexandre: In JSON Schema you can talk about types of properties (?)
13:57:06 [cygri]
... E.g, saying something is a URL
13:57:12 [SteveS]
Some early work on a validation/constraint model for RDF data models … be interested to what we can do at W3C
13:57:25 [FabGandon]
13:57:46 [cygri]
tidoust: There are similar things in JSON-LD, you can say that a certain key's vlaue is not taken as string but as IRI
13:57:47 [tidoust]
13:57:54 [tidoust]
ack oberger
13:57:55 [cygri]
oberger: Olivier Berger
13:58:10 [cygri]
... Are we discussing publishing or consuming information?
13:58:15 [cygri]
... Consuming is more difficult
13:58:28 [cygri]
... Especially with different sources. Spam, untrusted information
13:59:06 [cygri]
... Can we show an approach to handling trust of the data you want to consume, based on linked data?
13:59:23 [cygri]
13:59:47 [cygri]
tidoust: Even with content provider that provide a feed, you may have to reject some content because it's garbage
13:59:52 [betehess]
14:00:36 [cygri]
timbl: In linked data, you can start with a certain person, then look at that person's friends' friends'
14:00:59 [cygri]
... following through the graph, using only data according to that graph
14:01:05 [cygri]
... web of trust
14:01:26 [cygri]
... following a trail of trust through the graph. very natural in the LD world
14:01:27 [tidoust]
ack Ruben
14:01:29 [ivan]
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14:01:36 [cygri]
Ruben: Ruben Verbough
14:02:01 [cygri]
... Many applications combine styles. Bit of consumption, bit of production
14:02:12 [cygri]
... What's a solution that facilitates this?
14:02:14 [tidoust]
14:02:22 [cygri]
... No semantics in JSON, so you only do what you need to do
14:02:39 [betehess]
Ruben: today we have no semantics in JSON, you just do what you have to do
14:02:39 [cygri]
... Use cases?
14:03:02 [cygri]
tidoust: LDP is read-write
14:03:28 [cygri]
ruben: What people do today is just change a bit of JSON around
14:03:40 [cygri]
tidoust: Goal is to make life of developers easier
14:03:44 [cygri]
14:03:57 [tidoust]
zakim, pick up next agendum
14:03:57 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'pick up next agendum', tidoust
14:03:59 [cygri]
betehess: rdflib.js
14:04:09 [tidoust]
zakim, pick next agendum
14:04:10 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'pick next agendum', tidoust
14:04:24 [cygri]
... There are RDF libraries
14:04:45 [cygri]
... Let's say I'm a developer who wants to work with RDF as an RDF graph; not as SPARQL result or tree
14:04:57 [cygri]
... Finding a particular node in the graph and follow some links
14:05:03 [yvesr]
reminds me of - rdf api for javascript
14:05:14 [cygri]
... I want to have an LDP API that just does it for me, just follows some nodes
14:05:22 [cygri]
... and does the LDP GET requests etc
14:05:32 [cygri]
... I'd like timbl to speak about rdflib
14:05:35 [bhyland]
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14:06:10 [oberger]
what about PHP ?
14:06:13 [cygri]
... on tension between using pure javascript with JSON, or something like rdflib
14:06:29 [Ruben]
+1 on jQuery for RDF
14:06:38 [cygri]
timbl: We need jQuery for RDF. What's neat about jQuery is that you need very few keystrokes
14:06:48 [cygri]
... not always understandable, but the program shrinks
14:07:06 [betehess]
q+ to mention efforts on the server-side
14:07:11 [cygri]
... it abuses JS as much as it can to make things shorter
14:07:37 [tidoust]
14:07:39 [oberger]
betehess, any URL for rdflib.js ?
14:07:48 [cygri]
... one should be able to do simliar things with RDF
14:07:53 [betehess]
14:08:32 [cygri]
... So the thing you create is a quad store
14:08:56 [cygri]
... kb.sym("some URI")
14:09:06 [yvesr]
Ruben, not sure what the status of rdfQuery is?
14:09:09 [cygri]
... and that returns an internal representation of that thing
14:09:16 [betehess]
the way I understand timbl's KB, it's a way to speak about trust (you add in your KB what the facts you want to considerer)
14:09:38 [cygri]
... kb.any(x, dc:title) will return the object
14:09:58 [JeniT]
yvesr: I haven't worked on it for a long time
14:10:23 [cygri]
... kb.the(x, dc:title) will return only one; runtime error if multiple
14:10:35 [JeniT]
yvesr: rdflib.js incorporates some of the code
14:10:49 [cygri]
... kb.each(x,...)
14:11:11 [cygri]
... kb.each(example, title, "foo")
14:11:35 [yvesr]
JeniT, cool :) does it integrate with jquery as well? (rdflib.js)
14:11:36 [cygri]
... kb.the(x, the, ..., g) to query a specific graph
14:11:48 [yvesr]
JeniT, ah yes, it looks like it
14:11:58 [oberger]
is anyone recording timbl ?
14:12:06 [cygri]
... kb.the(s, p, o, g) and g is the document, like GRAPH keyword in SPARQL
14:12:17 [cygri]
... and this might write the result straight back to the graph
14:12:49 [cygri]
... this would be nice and short. can probably be improved
14:13:00 [Ruben]
14:13:10 [betehess]
14:13:12 [cygri]
... can people make it shorter and quicker? send SPARQL strings to it as people may prefer to write SPARQL?
14:13:17 [AZ_]
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14:13:21 [rblin]
I implement a small application wich use rdflib.js
14:13:28 [betehess]
14:13:41 [cygri]
ivan: we did try to get something rolling in the API space, and failed
14:13:49 [rblin]
Just type the uri per example :
14:13:54 [cygri]
... there was a WG where we wanted to define APIs for RDF and RDFa
14:14:05 [rblin]
and click to connexion to explore the foaf graph
14:14:08 [betehess]
14:14:11 [cygri]
... there were two or three drafts published
14:14:33 [cygri]
... but there was no interest from the public in terms of the public in coming and working with us, and no interest from the browser vendors
14:14:44 [cygri]
... so we published them as W3C Notes
14:14:53 [betehess]
q+ to mention efforts on the server-side
14:14:58 [timbl]
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14:15:07 [cygri]
... there is a community group to pick this up, but it's dormant
14:15:12 [timbl]
RRSAgent, pointer?
14:15:12 [RRSAgent]
14:15:35 [tidoust]
ack Ruben
14:15:54 [cygri]
Ruben: Big mismatch between the model that programmers use and RDF
14:16:16 [cygri]
... and no borders between objects. it's more fluid
14:16:34 [cygri]
... they prefer working with more enclosed, synchronous objects
14:16:48 [cygri]
ivan: JSON-LD work has two sides to it
14:16:54 [cygri]
... 1. it represents RDF graphs
14:17:06 [cygri]
... 2. it also defines a simple API
14:17:24 [betehess]
14:17:33 [cygri]
... the jury is still out
14:17:45 [betehess]
14:17:48 [tidoust]
ack betehess
14:17:48 [Zakim]
betehess, you wanted to mention efforts on the server-side
14:18:12 [cygri]
betehess: JS is very important, but in my case I also need things server-side
14:18:14 [ivan]
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14:18:35 [cygri]
... for example I want to say, this user can access the resource and this one not. rules for access control
14:18:53 [cygri]
... so if you define APIs, don't stop at the JS
14:19:00 [cygri]
oberger: +1 for not restricting to JS
14:19:24 [cygri]
tidoust: In the client it's fine if your graph is mutable
14:19:24 [oberger]
thx cygri
14:19:39 [Ruben]
JS is just a (prominent) example of how people will do things: the issues experienced there will also occur with others
14:19:43 [tidoust]
14:19:53 [cygri]
... on the server side, we may need immutable graphs
14:20:03 [oberger]
betehess, and we should not restrict to JSON either and think about Turtle
14:20:10 [tidoust]
14:20:19 [cygri]
sandro: There is DOM which is the standard, then there's jQuery that's a lot better/shorter
14:20:34 [cygri]
betehess: DOM is low-level. Like assembly language.
14:20:59 [cygri]
... then there's highlevel stuff, but that's maybe not for W3C
14:21:06 [cygri]
timbl: DOM tries to be language-independent
14:21:17 [cygri]
... great in an environment with global symbol table where you compile to C
14:21:33 [cygri]
... but in JS you want short names as everything is locally scoped
14:21:50 [cygri]
... job to do is to optimize for particular languages
14:21:57 [betehess]
if people are interested in APIs on the JVM (Java, Scala), I'm the main contributor to
14:22:03 [cygri]
... JS being an asynchronous environment also changes things
14:22:16 [betehess]
14:22:20 [oberger]
are we running out of time ?
14:22:26 [tidoust]
ack betehess
14:22:36 [cygri]
Ruben: People expect JSON to being synchronous, things don't suddenly show up in the JSON tree
14:22:42 [cygri]
betehess: [access control]
14:22:58 [cygri]
... group of users identified via URIs
14:23:13 [cygri]
... you may want to fetch data at runtime. This takes time. Where to start?
14:23:29 [cygri]
... Maybe written data is not yet there but only in 10 seconds
14:23:48 [cygri]
tidoust: Closing remarks?
14:24:03 [cygri]
Norman Richter, Uni Leipzig
14:24:26 [cygri]
Norman: Involved with research on PubSubHubbub
14:24:32 [cygri]
... access control on top of that
14:24:55 [cygri]
betehess: Talk to Alexandre Passant, he did RDF+PubSubHubbub
14:25:08 [BartvanLeeuwen]
RDF in pussubhubbub SparqlPush
14:25:11 [cygri]
Alexandre: [OData]
14:25:38 [cygri]
... We were looking into extending OData or having a parallel RDF service
14:25:55 [cygri]
... ideally only one service, with semantic information
14:26:07 [cygri]
bhyland: Talk to David Wood
14:26:17 [cygri]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:26:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate cygri
14:26:26 [cygri]
tidoust: Adjourned!
14:26:33 [Ruben]
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RRSAgent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate tidoust
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present+ timbl
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present+ ivan
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present+ sandro
14:27:01 [cygri]
present+ David Wood
14:27:06 [develD]
Norman Richter: So my question was to put rdf in a feed and to push it with an access control enabled pubsubhubbub
14:27:06 [cygri]
present+ Bernadette Hyland
14:27:13 [cygri]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:27:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate cygri
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