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12:34:23 <npdoty> scribenick: npdoty
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12:34:52 <npdoty> henry story on WebID, David Dahl on Mozilla API, Eric on @@@
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12:35:10 <npdoty> hhalpin: background on identity
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12:35:25 <npdoty> ... lots going on, but yet to have a Working Group or a coherent forward direction
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12:35:30 <npdoty> ... Mozilla has its work on Persona
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12:35:39 <npdoty> ... what's the role of the client device?
12:35:46 <npdoty> ... Crypto API came out of that
12:35:55 <npdoty> ... looking for the low-hanging fruit that we can enable realistically
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12:36:22 <npdoty> Topic: WebID
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12:36:49 <npdoty> bblfish: philosophically, start from what identity is -- the relation from a name to a person
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12:37:05 <npdoty> ... on the Web we have URIs and we can name people this way
12:37:12 <npdoty> ... several systems that have tried to do this
12:37:32 <npdoty> ... OpenID, OAuth, OAuth2, WebID over TLS, XAML solutions
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12:37:41 <npdoty> ... looking to be able to identify a user in a global context
12:37:56 <npdoty> ... might have a Freedom Box at home with your info and your social network
12:38:11 <npdoty> ... should have a privacy-preserving way to connect when you want to
12:38:23 <npdoty> ... rather than a silo'd system where you have to create new accounts/identities for each service
12:38:34 <betehess> raw minutes from the #webid F2F at TPAC are available at http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webid-minutes.html and  http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webid-minutes.html
12:38:41 <richt> Scribe: richt
12:38:46 <npdoty> scribenick: npdoty
12:39:00 <npdoty> bblfish: started off looking at TLS, which works in the browser
12:39:16 <npdoty> ... good enough to do authentication globally, 10 different implementations in different languages
12:39:30 <npdoty> ... at the same time hhalpin et al working on cryptography in the browser to do something very similar
12:39:41 <ht> ht has joined #identity
12:39:46 <npdoty> ... I think BrowserID is doing this without crypto in the browser
12:39:58 <ht> present+ Henry S. Thompson
12:40:07 <npdoty> ... should be able to go to a site, click a button, and link your identity there
12:40:16 <betehess> present+ Alexandre Bertails
12:40:18 <npdoty> ... should be able to describe resources and have access control rules
12:40:35 <npdoty> ... we have all the technologies at W3C to get this going
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12:40:53 <npdoty> ... need the linked data people for semantics, TLS people, crypto people for Web API
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12:41:17 <npdoty> bblfish: from this we can build a distributed social web (speaking about during #social)
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12:41:44 <npdoty> ... WebID we've redefined with Tim's help, a dereferenceable HTTP URL with information about the user
12:41:48 <npdoty> q?
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12:42:31 <oberger> who's speaking ?
12:42:35 <npdoty> @@: what WebRTC is trying to do
12:42:43 <npdoty> Topic: WebRTC
12:42:49 <adambe> ekr is speaking
12:42:51 <burn> Eric Rescorla is speaking
12:43:10 <npdoty> ekr: ability to call other users, speak peer to peer between browsers
12:43:21 <npdoty> ... need ability to authenticate and trust
12:43:32 <npdoty> ... know who the person you're calling is, by leveraging the browser infrastructure
12:43:43 <npdoty> s/@@/ekr/
12:44:07 <npdoty> ... aggregating these account mechanisms, whether I'm on PokerStars or Joe's Calling Service, I should be able to authenticate to my existing social accounts
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12:44:20 <npdoty> ... the same way that web sites now can authenticate you with your Facebook Connect
12:44:48 <npdoty> ... the basic insight is that the most difficult part is: while the browser is generic, the servers have to be programmed
12:45:02 <npdoty> ... the relying party isn't on a server, but in the browser, simple to just load javascript in the browser
12:45:16 <npdoty> ... the relying party and the authenticating party both load the JS from the IDP in an iframe
12:45:16 <betehess> q+ to ask people here what does Identity *on* the Web mean for them (when speakers are done speaking)
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12:45:42 <npdoty> [scribe missed that point]
12:46:03 <npdoty> ekr: can call my friend and know that they're my Facebook friend, without having to trust the site at all
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12:46:43 <npdoty> Eric Rescorla, an IETF guy, working on this for Mozilla
12:47:05 <npdoty> hhalpin: some kind of key-based authentication is going to be crucial
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12:47:16 <npdoty> ... some work making it more generic outside of WebRTC WG
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12:47:46 <npdoty> ekr: one thing about the defined interfaces is that any identity is determined based on the IDP domain name
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12:48:03 <npdoty> ... well-known URL to get the JS bridge from, and the set of messages to verify assertions
12:48:26 <bblfish> just found the channel
12:48:31 <bblfish> http://webid.info/spec
12:48:31 <bblfish> is the TLS version of WebID
12:48:31 <bblfish> my home page is http://webid.info/
12:48:33 <bblfish> SO I mentioned the java cryptography api working group  http://www.w3.org/2011/11/webcryptography-charter.html
12:48:35 <bblfish> the ldp Linked Data platform http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/hg/ldp.html
12:48:52 <oberger> ah, finally someone's english slow enough to be understandable
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12:49:01 <npdoty> mike jones, a long time contributor to LDP
12:49:15 <npdoty> mike: we think that identity solutions have to work for more than just the browser
12:49:18 <betehess> s/contributor to LDP/contributor to OpenID/
12:49:42 <npdoty> ... chat clients, Skype clients, etc.
12:49:55 <npdoty> ... building on top of OAuth we were able to make it work for rich clients as well
12:50:15 <bblfish> q+
12:50:16 <betehess> q+
12:50:16 <npdoty> ... in reaction to URL-based identity, lesson from 1st OpenID, most human beings are not willing to remember a URL
12:50:33 <npdoty> ... one thing they may remember is their email address, if you can use something like that as an identifier more people may be willing to use it
12:51:08 <npdoty> bblfish: distinction between the URI and the identity that the user sees
12:51:12 <betehess> bblfish is making a very important point here
12:51:19 <npdoty> mike: gets to discovery as well
12:51:21 <npdoty> ack bblfish
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12:51:36 <npdoty> Topic: Demo from David at Mozilla
12:51:44 <npdoty> david: feedback from the crypto API
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12:51:51 <npdoty> ... how can we do crypto without any crypto in the DOM
12:52:03 <npdoty> ... a bridge API, off of window.navigator.bridge.getCypherObject
12:52:29 <bblfish> yes, though WebId over TLS  ( http://webid.info/spec still needs to be cleaned up on the new webid definitiion) the URL is hidden in the X509 certificate . The user only sees his name. see video on http://webid.info/
12:52:57 <bblfish> and it's a point and click operation for the user
12:52:57 <npdoty> ... enable extension APIs so that signed/encrypted data is passed back to the DOM
12:53:08 <npdoty> ... if you don't trust the server with plain text, you might still be able to pull it off
12:53:26 <npdoty> ... feedback from Google, Web Intents could play a role as well
12:53:34 <npdoty> [demo]
12:54:00 <npdoty> david: write some plain text, the browser provides a "crypto console" UI
12:54:06 <npdoty> ... extension authors could provide whatever UI they want
12:54:27 <npdoty> ... encrypt this little passage, and then returns back a cyphertext and signature
12:54:38 <npdoty> ... a JSON object with the important details
12:55:02 <npdoty> ... reading/deciphering pulls the ciphertext into the browser UI
12:55:09 <npdoty> ... the content doesn't have access at all
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12:55:12 <hhalpin> q?
12:55:15 <npdoty> ... find me if you want to talk later
12:55:31 <hhalpin> q+
12:55:31 <npdoty> npd: awesome
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12:56:04 <npdoty> hhalpin: seeing different elements in different WGs that are related
12:56:19 <npdoty> ... harder to phish and authentication
12:56:35 <npdoty> ... do have the work of OpenID Connect, Mozilla Persona,
12:56:56 <npdoty> ... what is the lowest hanging fruit that we can standardize at W3C that can move authentication on the Web into a secure space?
12:57:09 <npdoty> ... could include the work of David, encrypted content into the DOM from outside
12:57:11 <SteveH_> @bblfish, suggest you pass the vga cable to Nick Doty in the interim
12:57:39 <npdoty> ... most of the work being done outside of W3C
12:57:44 <hhalpin> q?
12:57:47 <hhalpin> q-
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12:58:34 <betehess> A WebID is a hash HTTP URI which denotes an Agent. You can GET an RDF model as TURTLE.
12:58:38 <npdoty> betehess: just want to talk about identity, not necessarily simultaneously solve the problem of authentication
12:59:10 <hhalpin> We ran a workshop last May:
12:59:17 <hta> q+
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12:59:24 <npdoty> ... regarding OpenID in particular, when we want to speak about identity on the Web, it's very different than the identity that we expose to the user
12:59:26 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2011/identity-ws/
12:59:33 <hhalpin> Folks may want to look at the final report:
12:59:35 <npdoty> ... when we talk, define what you mean by identity on the Web
12:59:40 <npdoty> ack betehess
12:59:40 <Zakim> betehess, you wanted to ask people here what does Identity *on* the Web mean for them (when speakers are done speaking) and to
12:59:42 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2011/identity-ws/report.html
12:59:50 <hhalpin> ack hta
13:00:03 <bblfish>  relation of Openid to WebID for example:  <http://bblfish.net/people/henry/card#me> foaf:openid <http://bblfish.net/> .
13:00:21 <npdoty> hta: when we say HTTP URI, URIs as identifiers is fine, but don't resolve them
13:00:26 <hhalpin> q?
13:00:31 <npdoty> q+ timbl
13:01:04 <npdoty> timbl: the people who believe you shouldn't look things up will never go away
13:01:09 <hhalpin> https://openid.net/connect/
13:01:19 <hhalpin> The OpenID specs are linked from there:
13:01:22 <npdoty> ... in past discussions at IETF it was thought that it was perhaps too dangerous, like with the hotel problem
13:01:30 <npdoty> [scribe doesn't actually know what the hotel problem is]
13:01:46 <npdoty> timbl: work on building systems for looking up URIs without necessarily resolving them
13:01:56 <hhalpin> https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/persona/
13:02:01 <hhalpin> Mozilla Personae:
13:02:06 <npdoty> ... could have a separate group on what to do when you're in a hotel and have a captive portal when you're trying to look something up
13:02:10 <martin> mnot has something of a solution for this problem, it's been published
13:02:36 <npdoty> ... definition from the LDP WG, everything is defined by HTTP URIs and people look them up all the time
13:03:00 <martin> RFC 6585
13:03:02 <npdoty> ... the question of what you're using as an identifier
13:03:19 <npdoty> ... in some cases you'll require different levels of authentication, even if the identifier is the same
13:03:21 <hhalpin> EKR, do you have the latest URI for your work on the WebRTC identity work?
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13:03:36 <hhalpin> q?
13:03:47 <npdoty> ... nice clean architecture so you can plug on to it
13:04:03 <npdoty> ... Henry has a way to authenticate using SSL
13:04:03 <betehess> the point of HTTP URIs is that you don't need to define a new service to get information about them, just use the Web (HTTP GET)
13:04:16 <npdoty> ... authentication protocols can be designed separately
13:04:38 <adambe> hhalpin: ekr is not irc
13:04:44 <npdoty> ... the Linked Data Working Group can tell you what info you'll get back when you request a URI, content negotiation and different formats, another flexibility point in the architecture
13:04:45 <adambe> hhalpin: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-security
13:04:47 <betehess> s/Linked Data Working/LDP Working/
13:04:54 <hhalpin> q?
13:04:58 <hhalpin> ack timbl
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13:05:29 <npdoty> ashok: follow up to betehess, wonder if what you're asking for is "verified identity", the identity that really points to a person that would be accepted by, for example, the passport office or the social security office
13:05:53 <npdoty> betehess: important to make a clear distinction between identity and authentication
13:05:57 <fluffy> q?
13:06:07 <npdoty> ... what HTTP URIs give you is the ability to name what you are speaking of
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13:06:22 <npdoty> ... don't need to create new protocols
13:06:39 <bhill2> q?
13:06:47 <npdoty> ... we do RDF but not saying that you need to do RDF for authentication
13:07:00 <npdoty> hhalpin: comments?
13:07:17 <npdoty> hhalpin: the identity space gets caught up in a number of well-known debates
13:07:27 <npdoty> ... should we use an email address, an HTTP URI or something else?
13:07:46 <npdoty> ... want a system with some decent security properties (beyond username, password and cookies)
13:08:08 <npdoty> ... separate the concerns from what string you want to use as an identifier, distinct from the question of better authentication
13:08:38 <npdoty> ... have yet to see a coherent plan for those pieces
13:08:44 <bblfish> q+
13:09:04 <npdoty> ... right now, it's trickier than not to do key-based authentication with OpenID
13:09:19 <npdoty> mike: OpenID will use the browser, just generic browser functionality, if that's where your client is
13:09:36 <npdoty> ... if it's something in an app on your phone or your desktop, it's still possible to exchange claims there
13:09:59 <npdoty> ... re: comment on "verified identity", identity is really contextual, you're never going to have just one
13:10:33 <npdoty> ... holding some of the plastic identity tokens -- driver's license, corporate badge, grocery store loyalty program, frequent flier card
13:10:43 <npdoty> ... these different identities used in different places, some of them used in multiple places
13:11:02 <npdoty> ... have different levels of verification, release different claims about me, all of which matter in context, but I couldn't cross the border with some of these
13:11:24 <betehess> q+ to comment on contexts
13:11:26 <hhalpin> q+
13:11:29 <tanvi> mozilla is working on a contextual identity solution - https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Contextual_Identity_Project
13:11:31 <npdoty> ... while as a computer scientist I do want us to develop common infrastructure for claims about me
13:11:59 <npdoty> ... need to recognize different levels of requirements
13:11:59 <betehess> q-
13:11:59 <hhalpin> ack bblfish
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13:12:16 <npdoty> bblfish: identity is contextual, but it's also social
13:12:44 <oberger> has anyone discussed OpenPGP in the previous days ?
13:12:55 <npdoty> ... certificates have an issuer as well, with browser developers you can massively increase trust by creating a space of an official social network
13:13:30 <npdoty> ... countries having a list of shops, browser can do a lookup and verify whether it's listed in an appropriate official source
13:13:35 <npdoty> ... an institutional social web
13:13:43 <npdoty> ... can solve both problems simultaneously
13:13:45 <betehess> just wanted to say that the LDP community already has some answers to speak about the "context" that was mentioned by Mike: WebACLs. Again, this relies on a clear notion of URI-based identity and it decoupled from authentication
13:14:13 <npdoty> ... when I go to a shop web site, the shop can look up a list of banks from the official government source
13:14:20 <npdoty> [demo]
13:14:46 <npdoty> bblfish: WebID with TLS, go to a website, a selector UI from the agent
13:14:59 <npdoty> ... and then the site gets a nice picture of me
13:15:21 <npdoty> ... browsers have had this for a long time, just need to provide more functionality about choosing a certificate and getting more information from it
13:15:44 <hhalpin> q+
13:16:13 <npdoty> ashok: agree with your goals and use cases, worried about a different set of problems, like cyberbullying, where you can make negative comments about people without being able to find out who it was that made the comment
13:16:20 <npdoty> ... a fairly significant privacy problem
13:16:30 <npdoty> ... possibly a different use case from what you're working on
13:16:49 <bblfish> cyber bullying is not something I think one can solve technically
13:17:02 <bblfish> but one should look into it...
13:17:08 <tanvi> I could say a few words.
13:17:18 <npdoty> hhalpin: is there any interest in this room trying to form WG or CG or brainstorming more about enabling better forms of authentication for web apps?
13:17:26 <npdoty> [some hands]
13:17:32 <betehess> worth mentioning that Ann Bassetti is proposing a session (the next one I believe) trying to organize a workshop
13:17:44 <npdoty> hhalpin: what else are we interested in working on?
13:18:00 <npdoty> bblfish: I'd like to get WebID over TLS through an official WG
13:18:46 <bblfish> http://webid.info/spec/
13:18:58 <bblfish> WebID over TLS is just using TLS and Linked Data
13:19:01 <npdoty> cullen: my observation is that we have too many identity systems, what can we do to get less of them? [xkcd reference to yet another standard]
13:19:05 <bblfish> so it's not really inventing anything new
13:19:23 <npdoty> hhalpin: some commonalities, key-based authentication being the most generic thing going on
13:19:31 <npdoty> q+
13:19:36 <npdoty> ack hhalpin
13:19:55 <npdoty> cullen: a lot of application developers struggling to understand the differences between these
13:19:57 <bblfish> ie. TLS is in the browser available since 1998, so it's just a way of making what we have work globally
13:20:13 <npdoty> ... ekr proposing an abstraction over identity systems
13:20:23 <betehess> abstraction and standardization are two different things
13:20:32 <oberger> +1 ?
13:20:33 <hhalpin> webid list
13:20:33 <bblfish> List of people for WebID over TLS
13:20:34 <bblfish> +1
13:20:35 <npdoty> hhalpin: who wants to work on WebID?
13:20:35 <trueg> pro-WebID: Sebastian Trueg (OpenLink SW)
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13:20:47 <betehess> +1
13:20:47 <bblfish> melvster has a +1
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13:20:54 <timbl> Tim Berners-Lee
13:20:56 <develD> webid +1
13:21:03 <betehess> the proposal is *not* clear
13:21:24 <npdoty> jeff @@: the question is not whether I think WebID over TLS is the way to go, but what is the right forum for getting the major players to agree
13:21:34 <hhalpin> The proposal is a WebID Working Group charter
13:21:48 <npdoty> ... need a padded room for people to hammer things out
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13:22:04 <betehess> hhalpin, WebID could be used as is by LDP (nothing about authentication)
13:22:11 <webr3> +1 for WebID WG charter
13:22:31 <npdoty> @@: if you don't have the major players at the table, it doesn't matter what this forum does, unless it has significant uptake
13:22:51 <npdoty> hhalpin: more generic version of the WebRTC proposal?
13:22:58 <npdoty> s/@@/Mischinsky/
13:23:05 <oberger> what's the question ?
13:23:08 <adambe> fluffy: http://xkcd.com/927/
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13:23:52 <npdoty> hhalpin: is anyone interested in the problem of getting data to the DOM that's encrypted? David with a proposal and others
13:24:00 <betehess> I mean, all these things are interesting, they don't solve the same problems
13:24:03 <bblfish> need to look more into crypto in app, but sounds very interesting
13:24:12 <npdoty> [a few hands]
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13:24:24 <oberger> I still don't have a clue what this all has to do with identity... but maybe a problem of language
13:24:27 <bblfish> Since you can publish your public key at your WebID you can then use those keys to encrypt things
13:24:27 <npdoty> npdoty interested, hhalpin interested
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13:24:36 <npdoty> hhalpin: final comments?
13:24:50 <hhalpin> public-identity@w3.org
13:24:52 <npdoty> we have public-identity@w3.org for further discussion
13:24:57 <npdoty> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:24:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-identity-minutes.html npdoty
13:25:03 <bblfish> great thanks
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13:42:58 <bblfish> The demo I made of WebID over TLS was this site https://my-profile.eu/
13:43:13 <bblfish>  rrsagent, draft minutes
13:43:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-identity-minutes.html bblfish
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13:56:18 <ekr> q+
13:59:43 <npdoty> q-
13:59:46 <npdoty> q- ekr
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