IRC log of identity on 2012-10-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:34:15 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
12:34:23 [npdoty]
scribenick: npdoty
12:34:48 [Takahiro]
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12:34:52 [npdoty]
henry story on WebID, David Dahl on Mozilla API, Eric on @@@
12:35:05 [Zakim]
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12:35:08 [SteveH_]
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12:35:10 [npdoty]
hhalpin: background on identity
12:35:12 [nkic]
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12:35:21 [develD]
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12:35:25 [npdoty]
... lots going on, but yet to have a Working Group or a coherent forward direction
12:35:26 [sakkuru]
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12:35:30 [npdoty]
... Mozilla has its work on Persona
12:35:31 [wei]
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12:35:37 [betehess]
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12:35:39 [npdoty]
... what's the role of the client device?
12:35:46 [npdoty]
... Crypto API came out of that
12:35:55 [npdoty]
... looking for the low-hanging fruit that we can enable realistically
12:35:58 [kboudaoud]
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12:35:58 [mpastorg]
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12:36:22 [npdoty]
Topic: WebID
12:36:25 [trueg]
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12:36:49 [npdoty]
bblfish: philosophically, start from what identity is -- the relation from a name to a person
12:36:56 [oberger]
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12:37:05 [npdoty]
... on the Web we have URIs and we can name people this way
12:37:12 [npdoty]
... several systems that have tried to do this
12:37:32 [npdoty]
... OpenID, OAuth, OAuth2, WebID over TLS, XAML solutions
12:37:34 [dan_romascanu]
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12:37:36 [Yuan]
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12:37:41 [npdoty]
... looking to be able to identify a user in a global context
12:37:56 [npdoty]
... might have a Freedom Box at home with your info and your social network
12:38:11 [npdoty]
... should have a privacy-preserving way to connect when you want to
12:38:23 [npdoty]
... rather than a silo'd system where you have to create new accounts/identities for each service
12:38:34 [betehess]
raw minutes from the #webid F2F at TPAC are available at and
12:38:41 [richt]
Scribe: richt
12:38:46 [npdoty]
scribenick: npdoty
12:39:00 [npdoty]
bblfish: started off looking at TLS, which works in the browser
12:39:16 [npdoty]
... good enough to do authentication globally, 10 different implementations in different languages
12:39:30 [npdoty]
... at the same time hhalpin et al working on cryptography in the browser to do something very similar
12:39:41 [ht]
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12:39:46 [npdoty]
... I think BrowserID is doing this without crypto in the browser
12:39:58 [ht]
present+ Henry S. Thompson
12:40:07 [npdoty]
... should be able to go to a site, click a button, and link your identity there
12:40:16 [betehess]
present+ Alexandre Bertails
12:40:18 [npdoty]
... should be able to describe resources and have access control rules
12:40:35 [npdoty]
... we have all the technologies at W3C to get this going
12:40:52 [Arnaud1]
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12:40:53 [npdoty]
... need the linked data people for semantics, TLS people, crypto people for Web API
12:41:07 [krp]
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12:41:17 [npdoty]
bblfish: from this we can build a distributed social web (speaking about during #social)
12:41:34 [svillata]
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12:41:34 [shigeo]
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12:41:44 [npdoty]
... WebID we've redefined with Tim's help, a dereferenceable HTTP URL with information about the user
12:41:48 [npdoty]
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12:42:31 [oberger]
who's speaking ?
12:42:35 [npdoty]
@@: what WebRTC is trying to do
12:42:43 [npdoty]
Topic: WebRTC
12:42:49 [adambe]
ekr is speaking
12:42:51 [burn]
Eric Rescorla is speaking
12:43:10 [npdoty]
ekr: ability to call other users, speak peer to peer between browsers
12:43:21 [npdoty]
... need ability to authenticate and trust
12:43:32 [npdoty]
... know who the person you're calling is, by leveraging the browser infrastructure
12:43:43 [npdoty]
12:44:07 [npdoty]
... aggregating these account mechanisms, whether I'm on PokerStars or Joe's Calling Service, I should be able to authenticate to my existing social accounts
12:44:14 [wseltzer]
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12:44:20 [npdoty]
... the same way that web sites now can authenticate you with your Facebook Connect
12:44:48 [npdoty]
... the basic insight is that the most difficult part is: while the browser is generic, the servers have to be programmed
12:45:02 [npdoty]
... the relying party isn't on a server, but in the browser, simple to just load javascript in the browser
12:45:16 [npdoty]
... the relying party and the authenticating party both load the JS from the IDP in an iframe
12:45:16 [betehess]
q+ to ask people here what does Identity *on* the Web mean for them (when speakers are done speaking)
12:45:39 [youenn]
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12:45:42 [npdoty]
[scribe missed that point]
12:46:03 [npdoty]
ekr: can call my friend and know that they're my Facebook friend, without having to trust the site at all
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12:46:27 [rsleevi]
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12:46:43 [npdoty]
Eric Rescorla, an IETF guy, working on this for Mozilla
12:47:05 [npdoty]
hhalpin: some kind of key-based authentication is going to be crucial
12:47:16 [pmaret]
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12:47:16 [npdoty]
... some work making it more generic outside of WebRTC WG
12:47:25 [bblfish]
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12:47:46 [npdoty]
ekr: one thing about the defined interfaces is that any identity is determined based on the IDP domain name
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12:48:03 [npdoty]
... well-known URL to get the JS bridge from, and the set of messages to verify assertions
12:48:26 [bblfish]
just found the channel
12:48:31 [bblfish]
12:48:31 [bblfish]
is the TLS version of WebID
12:48:31 [bblfish]
my home page is
12:48:33 [bblfish]
SO I mentioned the java cryptography api working group
12:48:35 [bblfish]
the ldp Linked Data platform
12:48:52 [oberger]
ah, finally someone's english slow enough to be understandable
12:48:54 [tpacbot]
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12:49:01 [npdoty]
mike jones, a long time contributor to LDP
12:49:15 [npdoty]
mike: we think that identity solutions have to work for more than just the browser
12:49:18 [betehess]
s/contributor to LDP/contributor to OpenID/
12:49:42 [npdoty]
... chat clients, Skype clients, etc.
12:49:55 [npdoty]
... building on top of OAuth we were able to make it work for rich clients as well
12:50:15 [bblfish]
12:50:16 [betehess]
12:50:16 [npdoty]
... in reaction to URL-based identity, lesson from 1st OpenID, most human beings are not willing to remember a URL
12:50:33 [npdoty]
... one thing they may remember is their email address, if you can use something like that as an identifier more people may be willing to use it
12:51:08 [npdoty]
bblfish: distinction between the URI and the identity that the user sees
12:51:12 [betehess]
bblfish is making a very important point here
12:51:19 [npdoty]
mike: gets to discovery as well
12:51:21 [npdoty]
ack bblfish
12:51:25 [virginie_galindo]
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12:51:36 [npdoty]
Topic: Demo from David at Mozilla
12:51:44 [npdoty]
david: feedback from the crypto API
12:51:48 [fjh]
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12:51:51 [npdoty]
... how can we do crypto without any crypto in the DOM
12:52:03 [npdoty]
... a bridge API, off of window.navigator.bridge.getCypherObject
12:52:29 [bblfish]
yes, though WebId over TLS ("> still needs to be cleaned up on the new webid definitiion) the URL is hidden in the X509 certificate . The user only sees his name. see video on
12:52:57 [bblfish]
and it's a point and click operation for the user
12:52:57 [npdoty]
... enable extension APIs so that signed/encrypted data is passed back to the DOM
12:53:08 [npdoty]
... if you don't trust the server with plain text, you might still be able to pull it off
12:53:26 [npdoty]
... feedback from Google, Web Intents could play a role as well
12:53:34 [npdoty]
12:54:00 [npdoty]
david: write some plain text, the browser provides a "crypto console" UI
12:54:06 [npdoty]
... extension authors could provide whatever UI they want
12:54:27 [npdoty]
... encrypt this little passage, and then returns back a cyphertext and signature
12:54:38 [npdoty]
... a JSON object with the important details
12:55:02 [npdoty]
... reading/deciphering pulls the ciphertext into the browser UI
12:55:09 [npdoty]
... the content doesn't have access at all
12:55:11 [hhalpin]
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12:55:12 [hhalpin]
12:55:15 [npdoty]
... find me if you want to talk later
12:55:31 [hhalpin]
12:55:31 [npdoty]
npd: awesome
12:55:41 [jalvinen]
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12:56:04 [npdoty]
hhalpin: seeing different elements in different WGs that are related
12:56:19 [npdoty]
... harder to phish and authentication
12:56:35 [npdoty]
... do have the work of OpenID Connect, Mozilla Persona,
12:56:56 [npdoty]
... what is the lowest hanging fruit that we can standardize at W3C that can move authentication on the Web into a secure space?
12:57:09 [npdoty]
... could include the work of David, encrypted content into the DOM from outside
12:57:11 [SteveH_]
@bblfish, suggest you pass the vga cable to Nick Doty in the interim
12:57:39 [npdoty]
... most of the work being done outside of W3C
12:57:44 [hhalpin]
12:57:47 [hhalpin]
12:58:23 [webr3]
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12:58:34 [betehess]
A WebID is a hash HTTP URI which denotes an Agent. You can GET an RDF model as TURTLE.
12:58:38 [npdoty]
betehess: just want to talk about identity, not necessarily simultaneously solve the problem of authentication
12:59:10 [hhalpin]
We ran a workshop last May:
12:59:17 [hta]
12:59:21 [bblfish]
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12:59:24 [npdoty]
... regarding OpenID in particular, when we want to speak about identity on the Web, it's very different than the identity that we expose to the user
12:59:26 [hhalpin]
12:59:33 [hhalpin]
Folks may want to look at the final report:
12:59:35 [npdoty]
... when we talk, define what you mean by identity on the Web
12:59:40 [npdoty]
ack betehess
12:59:40 [Zakim]
betehess, you wanted to ask people here what does Identity *on* the Web mean for them (when speakers are done speaking) and to
12:59:42 [hhalpin]
12:59:50 [hhalpin]
ack hta
13:00:03 [bblfish]
relation of Openid to WebID for example: <">> foaf:openid <> .
13:00:21 [npdoty]
hta: when we say HTTP URI, URIs as identifiers is fine, but don't resolve them
13:00:26 [hhalpin]
13:00:31 [npdoty]
q+ timbl
13:01:04 [npdoty]
timbl: the people who believe you shouldn't look things up will never go away
13:01:09 [hhalpin]
13:01:19 [hhalpin]
The OpenID specs are linked from there:
13:01:22 [npdoty]
... in past discussions at IETF it was thought that it was perhaps too dangerous, like with the hotel problem
13:01:30 [npdoty]
[scribe doesn't actually know what the hotel problem is]
13:01:46 [npdoty]
timbl: work on building systems for looking up URIs without necessarily resolving them
13:01:56 [hhalpin]
13:02:01 [hhalpin]
Mozilla Personae:
13:02:06 [npdoty]
... could have a separate group on what to do when you're in a hotel and have a captive portal when you're trying to look something up
13:02:10 [martin]
mnot has something of a solution for this problem, it's been published
13:02:36 [npdoty]
... definition from the LDP WG, everything is defined by HTTP URIs and people look them up all the time
13:03:00 [martin]
RFC 6585
13:03:02 [npdoty]
... the question of what you're using as an identifier
13:03:19 [npdoty]
... in some cases you'll require different levels of authentication, even if the identifier is the same
13:03:21 [hhalpin]
EKR, do you have the latest URI for your work on the WebRTC identity work?
13:03:28 [youenn]
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13:03:36 [hhalpin]
13:03:47 [npdoty]
... nice clean architecture so you can plug on to it
13:04:03 [npdoty]
... Henry has a way to authenticate using SSL
13:04:03 [betehess]
the point of HTTP URIs is that you don't need to define a new service to get information about them, just use the Web (HTTP GET)
13:04:16 [npdoty]
... authentication protocols can be designed separately
13:04:38 [adambe]
hhalpin: ekr is not irc
13:04:44 [npdoty]
... the Linked Data Working Group can tell you what info you'll get back when you request a URI, content negotiation and different formats, another flexibility point in the architecture
13:04:45 [adambe]
13:04:47 [betehess]
s/Linked Data Working/LDP Working/
13:04:54 [hhalpin]
13:04:58 [hhalpin]
ack timbl
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13:05:29 [npdoty]
ashok: follow up to betehess, wonder if what you're asking for is "verified identity", the identity that really points to a person that would be accepted by, for example, the passport office or the social security office
13:05:53 [npdoty]
betehess: important to make a clear distinction between identity and authentication
13:05:57 [fluffy]
13:06:07 [npdoty]
... what HTTP URIs give you is the ability to name what you are speaking of
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13:06:22 [npdoty]
... don't need to create new protocols
13:06:39 [bhill2]
13:06:47 [npdoty]
... we do RDF but not saying that you need to do RDF for authentication
13:07:00 [npdoty]
hhalpin: comments?
13:07:17 [npdoty]
hhalpin: the identity space gets caught up in a number of well-known debates
13:07:27 [npdoty]
... should we use an email address, an HTTP URI or something else?
13:07:46 [npdoty]
... want a system with some decent security properties (beyond username, password and cookies)
13:08:08 [npdoty]
... separate the concerns from what string you want to use as an identifier, distinct from the question of better authentication
13:08:38 [npdoty]
... have yet to see a coherent plan for those pieces
13:08:44 [bblfish]
13:09:04 [npdoty]
... right now, it's trickier than not to do key-based authentication with OpenID
13:09:19 [npdoty]
mike: OpenID will use the browser, just generic browser functionality, if that's where your client is
13:09:36 [npdoty]
... if it's something in an app on your phone or your desktop, it's still possible to exchange claims there
13:09:59 [npdoty]
... re: comment on "verified identity", identity is really contextual, you're never going to have just one
13:10:33 [npdoty]
... holding some of the plastic identity tokens -- driver's license, corporate badge, grocery store loyalty program, frequent flier card
13:10:43 [npdoty]
... these different identities used in different places, some of them used in multiple places
13:11:02 [npdoty]
... have different levels of verification, release different claims about me, all of which matter in context, but I couldn't cross the border with some of these
13:11:24 [betehess]
q+ to comment on contexts
13:11:26 [hhalpin]
13:11:29 [tanvi]
mozilla is working on a contextual identity solution -
13:11:31 [npdoty]
... while as a computer scientist I do want us to develop common infrastructure for claims about me
13:11:59 [npdoty]
... need to recognize different levels of requirements
13:11:59 [betehess]
13:11:59 [hhalpin]
ack bblfish
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13:12:16 [npdoty]
bblfish: identity is contextual, but it's also social
13:12:44 [oberger]
has anyone discussed OpenPGP in the previous days ?
13:12:55 [npdoty]
... certificates have an issuer as well, with browser developers you can massively increase trust by creating a space of an official social network
13:13:30 [npdoty]
... countries having a list of shops, browser can do a lookup and verify whether it's listed in an appropriate official source
13:13:35 [npdoty]
... an institutional social web
13:13:43 [npdoty]
... can solve both problems simultaneously
13:13:45 [betehess]
just wanted to say that the LDP community already has some answers to speak about the "context" that was mentioned by Mike: WebACLs. Again, this relies on a clear notion of URI-based identity and it decoupled from authentication
13:14:13 [npdoty]
... when I go to a shop web site, the shop can look up a list of banks from the official government source
13:14:20 [npdoty]
13:14:46 [npdoty]
bblfish: WebID with TLS, go to a website, a selector UI from the agent
13:14:59 [npdoty]
... and then the site gets a nice picture of me
13:15:21 [npdoty]
... browsers have had this for a long time, just need to provide more functionality about choosing a certificate and getting more information from it
13:15:44 [hhalpin]
13:16:13 [npdoty]
ashok: agree with your goals and use cases, worried about a different set of problems, like cyberbullying, where you can make negative comments about people without being able to find out who it was that made the comment
13:16:20 [npdoty]
... a fairly significant privacy problem
13:16:30 [npdoty]
... possibly a different use case from what you're working on
13:16:49 [bblfish]
cyber bullying is not something I think one can solve technically
13:17:02 [bblfish]
but one should look into it...
13:17:08 [tanvi]
I could say a few words.
13:17:18 [npdoty]
hhalpin: is there any interest in this room trying to form WG or CG or brainstorming more about enabling better forms of authentication for web apps?
13:17:26 [npdoty]
[some hands]
13:17:32 [betehess]
worth mentioning that Ann Bassetti is proposing a session (the next one I believe) trying to organize a workshop
13:17:44 [npdoty]
hhalpin: what else are we interested in working on?
13:18:00 [npdoty]
bblfish: I'd like to get WebID over TLS through an official WG
13:18:46 [bblfish]
13:18:58 [bblfish]
WebID over TLS is just using TLS and Linked Data
13:19:01 [npdoty]
cullen: my observation is that we have too many identity systems, what can we do to get less of them? [xkcd reference to yet another standard]
13:19:05 [bblfish]
so it's not really inventing anything new
13:19:23 [npdoty]
hhalpin: some commonalities, key-based authentication being the most generic thing going on
13:19:31 [npdoty]
13:19:36 [npdoty]
ack hhalpin
13:19:55 [npdoty]
cullen: a lot of application developers struggling to understand the differences between these
13:19:57 [bblfish]
ie. TLS is in the browser available since 1998, so it's just a way of making what we have work globally
13:20:13 [npdoty]
... ekr proposing an abstraction over identity systems
13:20:23 [betehess]
abstraction and standardization are two different things
13:20:32 [oberger]
+1 ?
13:20:33 [hhalpin]
webid list
13:20:33 [bblfish]
List of people for WebID over TLS
13:20:34 [bblfish]
13:20:35 [npdoty]
hhalpin: who wants to work on WebID?
13:20:35 [trueg]
pro-WebID: Sebastian Trueg (OpenLink SW)
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13:20:47 [bblfish]
melvster has a +1
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13:20:54 [timbl]
Tim Berners-Lee
13:20:56 [develD]
webid +1
13:21:03 [betehess]
the proposal is *not* clear
13:21:24 [npdoty]
jeff @@: the question is not whether I think WebID over TLS is the way to go, but what is the right forum for getting the major players to agree
13:21:34 [hhalpin]
The proposal is a WebID Working Group charter
13:21:48 [npdoty]
... need a padded room for people to hammer things out
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13:22:04 [betehess]
hhalpin, WebID could be used as is by LDP (nothing about authentication)
13:22:11 [webr3]
+1 for WebID WG charter
13:22:31 [npdoty]
@@: if you don't have the major players at the table, it doesn't matter what this forum does, unless it has significant uptake
13:22:51 [npdoty]
hhalpin: more generic version of the WebRTC proposal?
13:22:58 [npdoty]
13:23:05 [oberger]
what's the question ?
13:23:08 [adambe]
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13:23:52 [npdoty]
hhalpin: is anyone interested in the problem of getting data to the DOM that's encrypted? David with a proposal and others
13:24:00 [betehess]
I mean, all these things are interesting, they don't solve the same problems
13:24:03 [bblfish]
need to look more into crypto in app, but sounds very interesting
13:24:12 [npdoty]
[a few hands]
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13:24:24 [oberger]
I still don't have a clue what this all has to do with identity... but maybe a problem of language
13:24:27 [bblfish]
Since you can publish your public key at your WebID you can then use those keys to encrypt things
13:24:27 [npdoty]
npdoty interested, hhalpin interested
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13:24:36 [npdoty]
hhalpin: final comments?
13:24:50 [hhalpin]
13:24:52 [npdoty]
we have for further discussion
13:24:57 [npdoty]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:24:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate npdoty
13:25:03 [bblfish]
great thanks
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13:42:58 [bblfish]
The demo I made of WebID over TLS was this site
13:43:13 [bblfish]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:43:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate bblfish
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13:59:43 [npdoty]
13:59:46 [npdoty]
q- ekr
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