14:58:52 RRSAgent has joined #guide 14:58:52 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-guide-irc 14:58:54 Zakim has joined #guide 15:00:52 bjkim has joined #guide 15:08:18 MichaelC_ has joined #guide 15:09:42 http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/ij-tpac2012-guide/#(1) 15:09:58 meeting: Breakout: Modern (Chairs) Guidebook 15:10:03 chair: Ian 15:10:16 dbaron has joined #guide 15:10:32 present: Michael_Cooper, Ian_Jacobs, Daniel_Glazman, Coralie_Mercier 15:10:47 [Ian goes over slides] 15:11:02 dbaron has left #guide 15:11:05 koalie has changed the topic to: Breakout: Guidebook | Slides: http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/ij-tpac2012-guide/#(1) 15:11:38 q+ to expand to participants 15:12:39 Daniel: in CSS WG, Peter and I started off with a one-day meeting before our first f2f, during which we met with Chris Lilley 15:12:57 ... it helped really a lot that the staff contact met with the Chairs ahead of time to go over their role 15:13:13 ... For later training, I'm not that sure. 15:16:22 ack me 15:16:23 MichaelC_, you wanted to expand to participants 15:16:53 Michael: anything we can do to help participants get stuff done will help the chair 15:18:19 q+ to say if we propose a *structure* then it can be helpful to invite contributions within that structure 15:22:36 topic: Chairs weekly routines 15:22:49 Daniel: weekly meetings. additionally, I chat with my co-chair 15:22:54 ... organization issues we have 15:22:58 ... sometimes painful troubles 15:23:01 ... quite complex 15:23:15 ... not quite a second conference call, but it's needed to synchronize 15:23:26 ... then we browse all the resources we have 15:23:39 ... we review the list of issues we have, the bugs, the requests from the WG memebers 15:23:53 ... looking at this and priorities, we establish the agenda for the week 15:23:58 s/memeb/memb/ 15:24:02 ... Then we have a meeting. 15:24:05 ... After the meeting: 15:24:20 ... we clean up the wiki where we keep track of the agenda items 15:24:27 ... add items there 15:24:36 ... I do my status report of the HTG if needed 15:24:53 s/HTG/HCG/ 15:25:01 ... and PLH is needed. 15:25:08 ... or staff, if needed. 15:25:17 Michael: A lot of the same stuff with my Chairs 15:25:29 ... one of the things they have to do is seek agenda items 15:25:37 ... Janina and I synchronize weekly 15:25:52 ... Also react to things coming 15:26:06 ... We use WBS on a weekly basis to collect items of interest from our membership 15:26:10 ... and discuss them on the call 15:26:29 ... other things that can happen: 15:26:38 ... following up with people in e-mail 15:26:46 ... these are things that sometimes slip off 15:27:16 ... s/the meeting:/the meeting: Tweet new publications,/ 15:27:26 present+ Chaals 15:27:33 Chaals: We have two co-chairs 15:27:39 ... Art does more of the repetitive stuff. 15:27:46 ... WepApps doesn't have teleconferences 15:27:50 ... we meet twice a year 15:28:07 ... I don't recall if we write to HCG 15:28:27 Ian: Frequent prioritization? How does stuff get done? 15:28:51 Chaals: once a quarter, maybe a bit more often, we go through the specs where we've seen nothing happening 15:29:02 ... to figure out if they're on track, what needs to be done. 15:29:08 ... we talk about every spec 15:29:18 ... we work in a fairly ad-hoc way. 15:29:30 ... prioritization is externally driven 15:29:51 ... Jeff gets upset, we get told Jeff is upset, and we figure out what to do next 15:30:01 ... we chase people 15:30:28 Ian: looking at the TOC for training, first item is on project planning 15:30:42 -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Project_Management_Training Project Management Training 15:31:36 Ian: What is welcome in your groups in terms of project planning? 15:32:28 Chaals: Whenever we're reviewing, what's the implemenation story? and then what are the spec issues? 15:32:55 ... our approach is fairly industry driven 15:33:19 ... we drop what work is not backed up by Members 15:33:28 [Daniel: +1] 15:34:14 Chaals: What we prioritize is what is stuck 15:34:40 ... in which case we spend f2f time to either unstuck it or put it on a death track (park it as a note, or drop it as a work item) 15:34:48 Michael: We attempt to do project planning 15:35:02 ... Chairs can only do so much 15:35:37 ... in my role as team contact, I'm interested if we can provide a template of questions to ask, and general guidance on project planning 15:36:19 Ian: in a world of volunteers, where chairs have priorities, how to do project planning? 15:36:26 Daniel: We're chairs, we are not leaders. 15:36:31 ... it's entirely different 15:36:38 ... Some chairs are dictators, some are not. 15:37:02 ... It makes the things much harder in groups where the chair is not seen as leader. 15:37:50 Chaals: in an asynchronous mannier, we send a call for consensus 15:37:56 s/mannier/manner/ 15:38:17 In my groups the chairs are leaders, groups dont really operate without the chair 15:38:17 ... rare cases when chairs have had to make statements. 15:38:59 Daniel: I think the role of the chair is to make sure the group delivers. The rest is the means, not the goal. 15:39:15 Ian: to deliver on schedule, do you think the chair can shuffle resource? 15:39:28 Daniel: whatever means the chairs can think of. 15:39:46 s/delivers/delivers RECs/ 15:40:08 Chaasl: The chairs do have a role of formally determining what the consensus is 15:40:33 ... but given that we're to run by consensus, it's usually clear whether there is consensus or not 15:40:53 ... to deliver consensus, our role as chairs is to try to bring consensus out, help the group to reach consensus 15:41:10 ... not our task to decide what to do, but help them get consensus on what they agree. 15:41:27 Topic: What is is the most challenging part of your role as chair? 15:41:37 Daniel: Time zones are a problem for me 15:41:59 ... sometimes I'm missing something; the bulk of the workers are in the US 15:42:17 ... Also, confidential discussions at the Member level, clashes between the Members 15:42:36 ... it's outside of what is visible 15:42:41 ... diplomacy role. 15:43:14 Chaals: the most challenging part is where you have strong disagreement in the group and where there are very clear reasons on both sides 15:43:32 Ian: Tips for documentation? 15:43:35 Chaals: no 15:43:37 Daniel: no 15:43:45 Chaals: Be nice, negotiate, etc. 15:43:57 Daniel: And sometimes declare that there is no consensus 15:44:16 ... suggest that both part of the argument get out to further their argument and come back 15:44:30 Michael: Achieving consensus is a challenge. 15:44:38 ... Also dealing with all the things that come up 15:45:02 Chaals: Dealing with soundly based disagreement is often difficult. Dealing with bad relationships is misery 15:45:07 [Michael nods] 15:45:18 Chaasl: Challenge to deal with obstructive members 15:45:32 ... personally that doesn't consume a massive amount of energy 15:45:44 ... they're not the thing that gives me headaches 15:45:56 ... it's not useful to bang my head against the wall 15:46:20 s/Chaasl/Chaals/ 15:46:24 ... in one sense maintaining a culture in a group is challenging especially a group that meets twice a year 15:46:36 [Daniel agrees] 15:46:55 Daniel: What gives the culture of CSS WG are the people who are ancient to the group 15:47:11 MichaelC: Challenge for a new chair to adapt to a culture. 15:47:28 Topic: What are your top priorities for documentation? 15:48:16 Daniel: I would like to have different pages instead of the single-document process, to describe the various steps of REC track 15:48:22 ... less legal vocab 15:48:37 ... I have my own pages of what it takes to get in LC and to get out of LC 15:48:42 chaals: +1 15:49:28 ... what is really useful is what you need to do to be in each state 15:49:38 Ian shows the transition document 15:49:54 -> http://services.w3.org/xslt?xmlfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/01-transitions.html&xslfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/transitions.xsl transition document 15:50:01 Daniel: THAT's what I want 15:50:06 ... it's too well hidden 15:50:49 Ian: need to make this more discoverable [Ian shows where it is in the Guidebook] 15:51:55 Ian: We need to figure out what's the really important things people do regularly and need help with 15:52:05 MichaelC: I want a proacitve thing 15:52:18 ... might be a presentation issue with the Guide 15:52:36 [Ian goes over Transition Requirements document] 15:52:46 [time check: we have 8 more minutes] 15:53:00 Topic: How to help 15:53:07 Ian: Write up your needs as a chair or chat more with us 15:53:11 ... Join the Modern Guide project (review content, write content) 15:53:35 bjkim has left #guide 15:53:41 Daniel: We should have an introduction to new chairs when they start 15:54:22 Ian: Anything we should report to the plenary? 15:54:53 Michael: maybe ask what they value, since only a handful showed up at this breakout 15:55:31 Coralie: What are the other sessions ours was competing with? 15:56:08 RRSagent, make minutes 15:56:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-guide-minutes.html koalie 15:56:29 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:57:05 s/HCG/HCG (Hypertext Coordination Group)/ 15:57:07 RRSagent, make minutes 15:57:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-guide-minutes.html koalie 15:57:29 s/ ->/ ->/G 15:57:30 RRSagent, make minutes 15:57:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-guide-minutes.html koalie 15:58:09 RRSAgent, bye 15:58:09 I see no action items 15:58:11 Zakim, bye