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15:16:06 <dsinger> invite trackbot
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15:16:21 <dsinger> scribenick: dsinger
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15:16:31 <dsinger> chair: npdoty
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15:16:47 <dsinger> rigo: DNT started off in the US market, and there is an atlantic divide
15:16:51 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
15:16:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-dntb-minutes.html adrianba
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15:17:12 <dsinger> …mozilla did a quick implementation, and then came the challenge to globalize
15:17:14 <npdoty> q?
15:17:44 <dsinger> …for Rigo, DNT is a communication mechanism, signalling a preference and getting a confirmation from the server side
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15:18:20 <dsinger> …in Europe, we have ePrivacy, article 53 (?), and in that debate, our constituency was ineffective, and they switched to pure opt-in
15:18:41 <dsinger> …nobody told them that pure opt-in was very hard to reach
15:18:50 <npdoty> Article 5(3), I believe
15:19:04 <dsinger> …and now we have the first impl., cookie banners in the UK
15:19:15 <dsinger> s/53/5(3)/
15:19:42 <dsinger> …not the baddest idea, because we get tech. without banners and we have a route to getting consent
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15:21:16 <dsinger> cargill: so this was a european issue?
15:21:35 <dsinger> rigo: sort-of: the US needs to define what dnt:1 means, and the europeans dnt:0
15:21:52 <dsinger> rigo: we have several hard issues, and gazillions of issues in general
15:21:55 <dsinger> q?
15:22:35 <dsinger> ??: regarding the DNT status, and IE and Apache, et al., what's happening?
15:22:50 <adrianba> s/??/Yoav/
15:22:59 <dsinger> rigo: this is outside the WG, we have rockets inside, but this is a set of rockets flying outside.
15:23:57 <dsinger> rigo: what IE does is much less dramatic than you might think from the press; we've seen the Apache patch, and the Yahoo! blog. this is necessary noise
15:24:19 <dsinger> …hopes for reconsideration once we get to a 'final statement'; and some of this is based on fears
15:24:47 <dsinger> …fears of blanket dnt:1 and wide damage to industry
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15:25:19 <dsinger> …but people do check preferences, cookies, and so on (40% of UK users regularly delete cookies, for example)
15:25:42 <adrianba> q+
15:26:48 <dsinger> dsinger: explains the default
15:26:48 <npdoty> ack a
15:27:07 <dsinger> adrianba: wants to draw more attention to another aspect of the work
15:27:28 <dsinger> …despite how the user gets to setting dnt:1, at some point the browser is sending dnt:1 to all sites
15:27:54 <dsinger> …but there are some the user has a relationship with, and trusts more (and note it's 3rd parties that we are worried about)
15:28:57 <dsinger> …if I have a trust relationship with some of those; there is a mechanism under way for APIs for sites to request that they don't get dnt:1; maybe I am OK with being tracked in exchange for getting something, e.g. free access; this API allows sites to do that
15:29:38 <dsinger> ….this is part of an approach to fairness; if we start with dnt:1 or no header, sites should be able to ask for exceptions
15:30:10 <dsinger> …and as we have heard, cookies get lost; so cookies are too fragile, and the preference store for this API is as persistent as the signal
15:30:54 <dsinger> …fwagner: adding to the explanations; from a euro perspective, we want the user to be asked, and then it's really user's consent
15:31:44 <dsinger> rigo: in europe, there is no legal distinction between 1st and 3rd party; I personally think the distinction is a bad idea, but the consent of the WG is that we have this distinction
15:32:35 <dsinger> yoav: what is considered 'tracking users'? if 1st parties are included, and someone is logged in, can I react to their stated preference?
15:33:20 <dsinger> rigo: this is more a legal technique question than a technical one; we don't actually define 'tracking', we tell you what not to do if you are not tracking
15:33:26 <dsinger> …it's a negative definition
15:33:33 <adrianba> q+
15:34:15 <dsinger> …so, we also use a german-like system: general prohibition with explicit permissions; reverse in the US, which is that things not prohibited are permitted
15:34:29 <dsinger> …so you get a recipe, not a simple definition
15:34:37 <dsinger> ack adrianba
15:35:24 <dsinger> adrianba: wants to disagree with Rigo that distinguishing 1st and 3rd is a bad idea; separate legal frameworks and their geographies from the work on DNT
15:35:51 <dsinger> …the priority of DNT is the hidden data collection going on that people are not aware of
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15:36:32 <dsinger> …people visit the NY Times and think it's all NY TImes that they interact with; in fact, other parties are there and watching and collecting and correlating
15:37:03 <dsinger> …so I think it's important that the 1st party (the party the user chose to visit and share with) is different from 3rd (parties they are mostly unaware of)
15:37:24 <dsinger> …we don't expect to solve all data collection issues, esp. for Europe
15:37:38 <dsinger> carl: how are you going to solve this issue?
15:37:48 <dsinger> …I thought it was the world-wide web
15:38:24 <dsinger> npdoty: part of motivation was to have a world-wide standard (rather than regional practices or regulations), makes life much easier for engineers et al.
15:39:06 <dsinger> …not OTOH we can help with some of these legal/regulatory issues that come up; general solutions that may apply specifically in some geographies
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15:39:20 <dsinger> carl: worried about the apparent stasis in the committee right now
15:39:43 <dsinger> npdoty: we have extended the charter, but we have made rapid progress, and we are still trying to make a last-call this year
15:39:51 <adrianba> q?
15:40:22 <dsinger> rigo: it's not the goal to 'smuggle EU values into the US', but it is a goal to have a tool that is usable in both regimes
15:40:28 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
15:40:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-dntb-minutes.html adrianba
15:41:46 <dsinger> …one measure of success is how many DPAs endorse this…but they are saying January for review...
15:41:57 <dsinger> q?
15:42:39 <dsinger> danappelquist: any comment on 'the' famous letter from a US politician [[room: which one?]]
15:43:14 <dsinger> npdoty: we find it kinda novel that we get letters from congress et al. to a public w3c mailing list.
15:43:43 <dsinger> rigo: the other side of the atlantic got anxious and felt they needed to write also
15:44:05 <dsinger> npdoty: we've used invited experts to get data-protection authorities on both side of the pond
15:44:49 <dsinger> carl: did you invite the commission to join?
15:44:58 <dsinger> rigo: commission doesn't join
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15:45:35 <dsinger> rigo: it's great we have FTC and Article 29 working party, at the table.  this time they are part of the process
15:46:00 <dsinger> ??: are there bugzilla bugs that result from these letters?
15:46:36 <dsinger> npdoty: I don't think the letters are irate, or that specific. we get suggestions (e.g. on alternative approaches to default settings)
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15:47:23 <dsinger> paulcotton: (canadian) so, input from US and Europe; this is the W3C, what about other governments? Canada is very active in this area
15:47:39 <shh> s/??/shh (Steve Holbrook - IBM)/
15:48:37 <dsinger> rigo: we have several active canadians, we think NGO rather than officials; we have a special relnship with xxxx (privacy by design), and others.  perhaps Canada is positioning in the middle (as a nice business position)
15:49:47 <dsinger> npdoty: have japanese and chinese companies, and had some side conversation with japanese ministry groups; we used a CG for some NGOs, who couldn't commit the time or travel to the WG.
15:50:06 <dsinger> dsinger: anxiety about small amount of input from asia (and maybe middle east)
15:51:08 <dsinger> runnegar: introduces self (internet soc. privacy interest group). interested you are keen to get input from legal/policy people, and is happy to help facilitate getting input from that. you'll need to translate it to get that input, and can help
15:51:17 <dsinger> q?
15:51:26 <dsinger> npsoty: wrap-up!
15:51:33 <dsinger> s/npsoty/npdoty/
15:51:40 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
15:51:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-dntb-minutes.html adrianba
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15:53:28 <adrianba> i/rigo: DNT/npdoty: introduces the tracking preference expression and compliance documents
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15:53:40 <adrianba> i/rigo: DNT/http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/drafts/tracking-dnt.html
15:53:50 <adrianba> i/rigo: DNT/http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/drafts/tracking-compliance.html
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15:54:02 <adrianba> i/rigo: DNT/npdoty: we have a large group (up to 100) with quite a few invited experts (consumer advocates, reps of reg. agencies, advertising side, and so on)
15:54:20 <adrianba> i|rigo: DNT|…group is at http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/
15:54:20 <adrianba> |
15:54:36 <adrianba> i/rigo: DNT/…the TPE document describes the 'immediate' on-wire protocol.  The protocol is quite simple and short: DNT 0|1
15:54:45 <adrianba> i/rigo: DNT/…also JS APIs, and a response framework
15:54:55 <adrianba> i/rigo: DNT/…and then on compliance and scope, describes the server behavior in response to the preference
15:55:11 <adrianba> i|rigo: DNT|…sets limits on collection/retention/use of data
15:55:11 <adrianba> |
15:55:29 <adrianba> i/rigo: DNT/…compliance is under active debate
15:55:40 <adrianba> i/rigo: DNT/…that's the summary, members are in the room/
15:55:45 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
15:55:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-dntb-minutes.html adrianba
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15:56:37 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
15:56:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-dntb-minutes.html adrianba
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15:57:29 <adrianba> Meeting: Catch up on DNT
15:58:02 <adrianba> i/chair:/Topic: Summary of DNT/
15:58:08 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-dntb-minutes.html adrianba
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