10:08:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #digpub
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10:09:10 <karen_> Introductions: Ivan Herman, W3C is moderating
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10:09:26 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
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10:09:39 <fantasai> Ivan: This is not just about electronic books, although we are starting with that
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10:10:05 <fantasai> Ivan: The background of all this is that sometime last wintertime, W3C started a number of what we call 'Headlight" projects, looking at various areas of industry or other activities to see whether there are areas where W3C sees potential for cooperation
10:10:06 <karen_> Markus Gylling, ePub overview
10:10:10 <karen_> Thierry Michel, W3C
10:10:11 <fantasai> Ivan: The digital publishing came out of this experience
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10:10:21 <fantasai> Ivan: We had a feeling that there's an area here that we would like to address somehow
10:10:26 <fantasai> Ivan: B/c headlight project, it's about the future
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10:10:39 <karen_> Ivan: Unsure if this will become a separate activity
10:10:42 <karen_> ...at W3C
10:10:46 <fantasai> Ivan: It's only future that will tell whether this will become an activity within W3C, or whether we decide that there is nothing to do here
10:11:04 <fantasai> Ivan: One thing that we hit very early on, is that digital publishing is very vague term
10:11:13 <fantasai> Ivan: Want to define the focus to make things more concrete
10:11:25 <fantasai> Ivan: We came up with an arbitrary focus areas
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10:11:38 <fantasai> Ivan: Production workflow, journals + magazines, electronic books, scientific publishing, and metadata
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10:11:53 <fantasai> Ivan: Production workflow, not even sure the name is really good, but is about everything that happens in the backend
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10:12:02 <fantasai> Ivan: At some point in time, the author produces a manuscript, mostly in word
10:12:09 <fantasai> Ivan: but other formats
10:12:13 <fantasai> Ivan: That was what publishers told me they did
10:12:23 <fantasai> Ivan: At the end of the process, they produce a book in various formats
10:12:32 <fantasai> Ivan: There is a complicated and specialized workflow there, with tools
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10:12:38 <fantasai> Ivan: Today it's dominated by XML pipelines
10:12:39 <glazou> glazou has changed the topic to: #digpub backchannel at #digpub-chat
10:12:45 <fantasai> Ivan: This is really changing area, where ppl want to look at other things
10:12:49 <fantasai> Ivan: effect of HTML5 is there as well
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10:12:59 <fantasai> Ivan: whole area there
10:13:04 <fantasai> Ivan: Electronic books is another area
10:13:17 <fantasai> Ivan: Various types of books, not just novels, although today this is what dominates the ebook market
10:13:29 <fantasai> Ivan: You can have childrens books, interactive books, and evencomplex multimedia publications
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10:13:40 <fantasai> Ivan: Very popular today. People reading books on many devices, on transit, etc.
10:13:50 <fantasai> Ivan: Huge discussions on business models and DRM
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10:14:06 <fantasai> Ivan: Journals and magazines have similarties to electornic books, but has differences
10:14:15 <fantasai> Ivan: Very dynamic -- published frequently, rapidly
10:14:21 <fantasai> Ivan: Social web becoming more improtant to this
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10:14:40 <fantasai> Ivan: The business model is different than for electronic books
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10:14:56 <fantasai> Ivan: There is another contact with another headlight there, advertising
10:15:06 <fantasai> Ivan: And searching is important, esp. for journals
10:15:11 <fantasai> Ivan: Scientific publication is another area
10:15:21 <fantasai> Ivan: Lots of commonalities
10:15:26 <fantasai> Ivan: What it means is changing
10:15:29 <fantasai> Ivan: Previously just paper
10:15:36 <fantasai> Ivan: Now data, algorithms, etc.
10:15:47 <fantasai> Ivan: Also has a social aspect, because of peer review etc.
10:15:54 <fantasai> Ivan: Another area, whether we can handle that or not, I don't know
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10:16:03 <fantasai> Ivan: Important role for scientists for specialized tools
10:16:06 <fantasai> Ivan: e.g. Google Scholar
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10:16:16 <fantasai> Ivan: Also part of this publication environment
10:16:24 <fantasai> Ivan: Also metadata, needed everywhere, for cataloging and search
10:16:36 <fantasai> Ivan: An electronic book can carry all its metadata in it
10:16:50 <fantasai> Ivan: Previously library had to manualy catalog into various systems
10:16:59 <fantasai> Ivan: This area involves both publishers and librarians
10:17:08 <fantasai> Ivan: So these are the areas we came up with
10:17:15 <fantasai> Ivan: Plan is to organize various workshops in this area
10:17:22 <fantasai> Ivan: figure out issues that are utually of interest
10:17:32 <fantasai> Ivan: All these users are major users of W3C technology
10:17:38 <fantasai> Ivan: WGs can expect feedback from these groups
10:17:55 <fantasai> Ivan: One thing I must emphasize here is that W3C doesn't intend to replace other organizations, industry consortia, that already exist
10:17:59 <fantasai> Ivan: We want to work with them
10:18:11 <fantasai> Ivan: E.g. EPUB is done by IDPF, and workshop in NYC is co-organized with them
10:18:27 <fantasai> Ivan: For magazines and journals, there's IPTC
10:18:30 <fantasai> Ivan: etc.
10:18:36 <karen_> http://www.w3.org/2012/08/electronic-books/
10:18:38 <fantasai> Ivan: The plan is to have a workshap on eletronic books
10:18:47 <fantasai> Ivan: Current plans are to have a workshop on the workflow area in 2013
10:18:53 <fantasai> Ivan: Electronic books is well-advanced
10:18:59 <fantasai> Ivan: Workflows, much more in brainstorming phase
10:19:09 <fantasai> Ivan: So no idea where or when, probably somewhere in Europe but not decided
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10:19:19 <fantasai> Ivan: If things go well, and feedback goes well, we may attack other areas in 2014
10:19:24 <fantasai> Ivan: This is a new area for all of us
10:19:30 <fantasai> Ivan: had to learn a lot
10:19:44 <fantasai> s/had/have/
10:20:08 <fantasai> Ivan hands over to Markus Gylling
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10:21:03 <fantasai> mgylling: So, we're going to try to avoid making this whole session presentations, so try to run quickly
10:21:07 <fantasai> mgylling: Ivan mentioned IDPF
10:21:14 <fantasai> mgylling: Non-profit trade and standards organization
10:21:22 <fantasai> mgylling: approx 400 members from 30+ countries
10:21:26 <fantasai> mgylling: Our main target is EPUB format
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10:21:40 <fantasai> mgylling: which we are developing and promoting as the one or only open format for digital books available today
10:21:52 <fantasai> mgylling: One tagline we use is "Where digital publishing meets the Open Web"
10:22:10 <fantasai> mgylling: The intent of EPUB is not to define something that deviates from the open web platform, but rather work towards getting digital publishg towards the sweet spot
10:22:17 <fantasai> mgylling: where we use as much of the open web platform as possible
10:22:21 <fantasai> mgylling: EPUB has bene around since 2000
10:22:45 <fantasai> mgylling: Organization has developed from developing only format for interchange, to also providing format for consumption
10:22:53 <fantasai> mgylling: started with Adobe, B&N, etc.
10:23:01 <fantasai> mgylling: Other industries now supporting EPUB as primary format
10:23:16 <fantasai> mgylling: So, EPUB3 is latest version of the EPUB standard, 3rd standard
10:23:19 <fantasai> mgylling: done exactly 1 year ago
10:23:23 <fantasai> mgylling: 3 major goals
10:23:28 <fantasai> mgylling: 1st is to update/modernize ourselves
10:23:39 <fantasai> mgylling: EPUB 2 was based on subset of XHTML1.1 and CSS2
10:23:48 <fantasai> mgylling: EPUB3 uses HTML5 and profile of CSS3
10:23:58 <fantasai> mgylling: Other major goals were a11y and i18n
10:24:18 <fantasai> mgylling: put a lot of effor tto making sure that EPUB 3 can serve these
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10:24:32 <fantasai> mgylling: DAISY Consortium has merged with IDPF to make sure that books can be accessible
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10:24:48 <fantasai> mgylling: wrt i18n, included things like vertical writing, important for zh and ja
10:24:56 <fantasai> mgylling: Here is a graph of the layout of an EPUB book
10:24:59 <fantasai> mgylling: there's a zip container
10:25:07 <fantasai> mgylling: There's content files, SVG, etc.
10:25:12 <fantasai> mgylling: Also a lot of overarching metadata
10:25:20 <fantasai> mgylling: We have package file that lists global metadata
10:25:28 <fantasai> mgylling: order of contetn in reading order
10:25:36 <fantasai> mgylling: defined spots for digital signatures, encryption, etc.
10:25:45 <fantasai> mgylling: does not define a DRM format itself, but books can include one
10:25:52 <fantasai> mgylling: We can also do media overlays, using SMIL
10:26:01 <fantasai> mgylling: which allows document-wide synchronization of audio and text
10:26:07 <fantasai> mgylling: you can use it for audio books and text
10:26:16 <fantasai> mgylling: that's the overview
10:26:34 <fantasai> John?: What do you mean by hooks for DRM?
10:26:56 <fantasai> mgylling: The encryption of XML5 is commonly used by most common implementations of EPUB [...]
10:27:16 <fantasai> mgylling: huge interop issue, because users who purchase from one system can't use their book in a different system
10:27:27 <fantasai> mgylling: many players think we should not do DRM at all, go towards other solutions
10:27:35 <fantasai> mgylling: There's an ongoing discusison in IDPF wrt what to do to solve this
10:27:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-digpub-minutes.html odinho_
10:27:55 <fantasai> John: In the video space, the new ISo-MPEG common encryption .. allows multiple DRMs
10:28:08 <fantasai> mgylling: There's multiple solutions. One called UltraViolet
10:28:23 <fantasai> ivan: Let's say a few words wrt workshop itself
10:28:47 <fantasai> ?: Where can we get more information on how EPUB fits together?
10:29:01 <fantasai> mgylling: You want an introduction to EPUB?
10:29:10 <fantasai> O'Reilly: What is EPUB 3
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10:29:18 <fantasai> mgylling: freely-available intro to EPUB
10:29:24 <fantasai> mgylling: also idpf.org
10:29:38 <glazou> Thierry Michel
10:29:42 <fantasai> Thierry: Say a few words about upcoming workshop
10:29:57 <fantasai> Thierry: We are currently investigating into digital publishing; first step will be that workshop
10:30:05 <glazou> s/Thierry Michel/Thierry Michel, W3C
10:30:14 <fantasai> Thierry: This workshop will happen in NYC, 11-12 February 2013
10:30:22 <fantasai> Thierry: because lots of publishers hosted in that city
10:30:29 <fantasai> Thierry: Workshop will be hosted by o"reilly
10:30:47 <fantasai> Thierry: In order to ease the venue and attendence, we co-located with Tools of Change publishign conference (TOC) also organized by O'Reilly
10:31:09 <fantasai> Thierry: also organized in partnership with Book Industry Study Grou (BISG), maintain standards and best practices for books
10:31:16 <fantasai> Thierry: and IDPF
10:31:37 <fantasai> Thierry: Goal of this workshop is that currently there's lots of format, not only EPUB3, but bunch of various formats
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10:31:49 <fantasai> Thierry: Some are proprietary, some are open, some are proprietary extensions to open formats
10:32:02 <fantasai> Thierry: This really breaks the interoperability and headache for consumers
10:32:08 <fantasai> Thierry: Think there's a place for W3c to help here
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10:32:25 <fantasai> Thierry: As W3C did for Web, has role here to lead ebook publishing to full potential
10:32:46 <fantasai> Thierry: Great opportunity to bring major players together
10:33:09 <fantasai> Thierry: We'll have 3 co-chairs, and will have expertise from BISG, IDPF/DAISY, W3C
10:33:55 <fantasai> Thierry describes various other attendies
10:34:19 <fantasai> Thierry: Large variety of potential topics
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10:34:32 <fantasai> Thierry: roganized them into 3 different areas: production, presentation,  distribution
10:34:44 <fantasai> Thierry: within production, first issue is standardization and relation with current and future W3C standards
10:34:45 <stearns> http://www.w3.org/2012/08/electronic-books/topics.html
10:35:00 <fantasai> Thierry: 2nd topic is about layout
10:35:16 <fantasai> Thierry: today, ebooks is not only publication of novels, but goes beyond that with publication of more complex layout
10:35:24 <fantasai> Thierry: Not only adaptive, but also fixed layout
10:35:35 <fantasai> Thierry: next topic will be a11y, fallbacks
10:35:42 <fantasai> Thierry: voice control, text-to-speech, media overlay
10:35:57 <fantasai> Thierry: device descriptions for processing ebooks on server, media queries for ex
10:36:03 <fantasai> Thierry: color management, widget definitions
10:36:13 <fantasai> Thierry: we're seeing proprietary widgets, we'd like to standardize
10:36:23 <fantasai> Thierry: for distribution, as Ivan mentioned, we believe DRM is the issue
10:36:29 <fantasai> Thierry: It brings overburden to consumers
10:36:39 <fantasai> Thierry: So there are different types of DRM: open DRM, social DRM, etc.
10:36:44 <fantasai> Thierry: packaging is osmething to discuss
10:36:51 <fantasai> Theirry: also related to packaging like in webapps
10:36:58 <fantasai> Thierry: Also ISBN numbers, versioning, etc.
10:37:07 <fantasai> Theirry: I'll let you have a look at the potential, possible other topics
10:37:18 <fantasai> Thierry: Who should participate? Obviously anyone involved in ebooks
10:37:30 <stearns> participation URL : http://www.w3.org/2012/08/electronic-books/expected.html
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10:37:51 <fantasai> Thierry: To participate as an individual or organization, you must submit a position paper
10:38:02 <fantasai> Thierry: Show your perspective and your viewpoint, including concrete examples of your suggestions
10:38:21 <fantasai> Thierry: Can expres your interest today, whether plan to submit paper or show a demo
10:38:28 <fantasai> Thierry: Dec 10 is deadline for position papers
10:38:40 <rigo> I wonder if someone from http://www.w3.org/community/odrl/ is here
10:38:45 <fantasai> Theirry: By january 15, we will send acceptance, registration instructions, etc.
10:39:09 <fantasai> Thierry: Registration by Feb 1st, it's free for invited participants
10:39:32 <fantasai> Thierry: If you want to learn more, visit our call for participation page or mailing list team-electronic-books-chairs@w3.org
10:39:40 <fantasai> s/Theirry/Thierry/g
10:40:02 <fantasai> r12a: Called out a11y, but not i18n, why?
10:40:18 <stearns> (it's in the "other topics" list)
10:40:18 <fantasai> Thierry: We thought about i18n, but was removed... could be there, it's been removed because we tried to focus on main topics
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10:40:43 <fantasai> Ivan: The way we thought is that we would probably plan for a separate workshop, probably somewhere in Asia, to really concentrate on that
10:40:53 <fantasai> Ivan: A lot of issues are there: i18n, fonts, writing modes, etc.
10:41:07 <fantasai> Ivan: If things happen the way we dream, then there will be a second workshop
10:41:20 <fantasai> r12a: I would ask then that you mention i18n and your intentions at this workshop
10:41:48 <fantasai> ...
10:41:58 <fantasai> Ivan: We had whole series of topics we were looking at, had to give some a higher priority
10:42:04 <fantasai> Ivan: Which doesn't mean we will refuse anything not in those
10:42:21 <fantasai> Ivan: We tried to put some priorities on issues, like DRM, that permeates all the industry, but it's not an exclusive list
10:42:32 <fantasai> ivan: But we have to shorten the list a bit
10:43:10 <rigo> q?
10:43:13 <fantasai> ?: Comment on versioning -- there's another session at 1:30 wrt change tracking
10:43:20 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #digpub
10:43:27 <fantasai> ?: Wrt multiple versions of documents and changes and sharing them
10:43:36 <fantasai> ?: Is this within the scope of your workshop?
10:43:59 <rigo> q+
10:44:00 <fantasai> mgylling: Wrt pub, versioning is not on the top of the list of problems publishiers want solved today
10:44:06 <fantasai> mgylling: but possibility that it is a topic
10:44:14 <fantasai> mgylling: EPUB has a rudimentary but functioning versioning system today
10:44:30 <fantasai> TV Ramen: Want to connect dots between produciton workflow and a11y
10:44:47 <fantasai> tv: DAISY and IDPF have done a great job integrating a11y wrt navigating the content
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10:44:55 <fantasai> tv: Solves that part of the problem, but if you go back ...
10:45:08 <fantasai> tv: There's this concern, this assumption that EPUB3 is just going to be accessible because it's accessible
10:45:18 <fantasai> tv: There's a risk here, b/c if you look at the workflow that Ivan describes
10:45:26 <fantasai> tv: EPUB is viewed as a delivery format
10:45:55 <fantasai> tv: But at the end of the day, how accessible that book is going to be is not just due to the navigability of the format, but by the quality of the book
10:46:16 <fantasai> tv: They have to make a conscious effort to take the high-level structure and ocnstructs in their XML workflow and push that into the EPUB
10:46:24 <fantasai> tv: Just because it's EPUB, does not make it accessible
10:46:46 <fantasai> Ivan: ... I didn't realize that before
10:46:55 <fantasai> Ivan: This has to be part of the workflow workshop
10:47:15 <fantasai> tv: I keep say this is because when we were young and bright-eyed, we believed that HTML wold just work for a blind person
10:47:20 <fantasai> tv: And we were disappointed
10:47:27 <fantasai> tv: I view each EPUB book as a mini-website
10:47:31 <fantasai> tv: Enormous opportunity there
10:47:40 <fantasai> tv: But want to make sure we don't say that it's EPUB, it will work
10:47:53 <fantasai> tv: We need to make an effort for it to work, give publishers the right tools, so that it will work
10:48:01 <fantasai> tv: If you don't, you will end up with web of today, which is a mess.
10:48:10 <fantasai> mgylling: Yes. Will note that IDPF has been working on this problem
10:48:22 <fantasai> mgylling: We have a checklist for content accessibility that will be available within a month
10:48:30 <fantasai> mgylling: Allow publishers to learn and to rate their content wrt a11y
10:48:36 <rigo> ack ri
10:48:54 <fantasai> ??: I think it's wonderful that EPUB is a mini website, but problem is it's min-Web-island
10:49:02 <fantasai> ??: It can't interact with the Web, and Web can't interact with it
10:49:14 <fantasai> ??: Would like W3C to be involved in augmenting EPUB's work
10:49:23 <fantasai> ??: How do you hook an EPUB into portable annotations?
10:49:36 <fantasai> ??: Want to interact with online bibliographies, or other forms of metadata
10:49:49 <fantasai> ??: Interaction of web island and the rest of the web,
10:49:59 <fantasai> ??: That makes this really interesting
10:50:10 <fantasai> mgylling: Agree with what you said, and ??? CG working on that
10:50:10 <rigo> ?? was David Wood, chair of the RDF WG
10:50:24 <fantasai> mgylling: When it comes to linking -- there's no restriction of linking out from EPUB to the Web
10:50:32 <fantasai> mgylling: Some retailers restrict, but we can't control that
10:50:40 <rigo> q+ to ask about long term archiving
10:50:43 <fantasai> mgylling: Where we need more work, we need inter-EPUB linking
10:50:50 <fantasai> mgylling: EPUB doens't have an address
10:50:59 <fantasai> mgylling: We tried to solve for EPUB3, but it's extremely complicated so didn't happen
10:51:13 <fsasaki> ack ri
10:51:13 <Zakim> rigo, you wanted to ask about long term archiving
10:51:53 <fsasaki> q+
10:51:54 <fantasai> rigo: My main concern is to addres long-term archiving
10:52:02 <fantasai> rigo: We're talking about books. There are books 2000 years old
10:52:10 <fantasai> rigo: How do we imagine that people in 2000 years can read our ebooks?
10:52:17 <fantasai> rigo: My concern is that nothing the industry makes money out of
10:52:21 <fantasai> rigo: it's a public policy concern
10:52:31 <fantasai> rigo: In an environment like this, the commercial considreations prevail, which is normal
10:52:41 <fantasai> rigo: How do we create a strategy that makes publishers care about hits
10:52:51 <fantasai> ??: I'm wondering if we can engage the Internet Archive
10:53:12 <fantasai> janina: 2 comments if I may
10:53:14 <rigo> ack ri
10:53:35 <fantasai> janina: Want to tag onto TV Ramen's comments about making sure end result really is accessible -- just because HTML not guaranteed it's accessible
10:53:46 <fantasai> janina: But not just that, need to make sure accessibility is in the entire process
10:53:56 <fantasai> janina: in the tools in the process
10:54:03 <fantasai> janina: Authors need accessibility too
10:54:08 <stearns> s/Ramen/Raman/
10:54:17 <fantasai> janina: wrt making sure content is still readable in 2000 years, think we have a responsibility for that
10:54:35 <fantasai> janina: Maybe at some point, DRM expires, maybe put unencrypted in a Library of Congress osmewhere
10:54:43 <fantasai> janina: There are also accessibility concerns wrt i18n as well
10:55:04 <fantasai> janina: Kids who learn a foreign language, need to that to be presented in an accessible way
10:55:09 <fantasai> janina: Several intersections here
10:55:38 <fantasai> glazou: I would like to comment wrt archiving
10:55:41 <fantasai> glazou: We have a few issues there
10:55:54 <fantasai> glazou: Keeping a format for 2000 years is not about keeping the data, but also keeping the readers
10:56:11 <fantasai> glazou: We keep [...] in SGML for 60 years; it's mandatory in this country
10:56:19 <fantasai> glazou: ...
10:56:31 <fantasai> glazou: Internet Archive is not a wealthy organization. We can't depend on them
10:56:37 <fantasai> glazou: Second point is our personal libraries
10:56:45 <fantasai> glazou: We distribute them to our friends, to our children
10:56:52 <fantasai> glazou: when we die, they pass on to next generation
10:57:00 <fantasai> glazou: All this seems to be completely forgotten in electronic books
10:57:05 <fantasai> glazou: industry needs to think about htis
10:57:46 <fantasai> glazou: electronic books cannot be entirely successful if it only replaces the text but does not integrate with also the social habits around books
10:58:01 <r12a> vint cerf is currently studying how to preserve applications along with data for the next 1000 years
10:58:14 <fantasai> fsasaki: Topic of getting metadata which is already in another format, e.g. XML or CMS, getting that out into HTML5-based EPUB format is an area .. a11y and optimization
10:58:22 <fantasai> fsasaki: We will also touch on this topic  ....
10:58:27 <glazou> I would also love to preserve vint cerf himself for the next millenium, r12a ...
10:58:30 <fantasai> fsasaki: standardization .. how to make sure .. HTLM5 content
10:58:30 <bert_> (Keeping the data, keeping the software & hardware, and keeping the cultural context of the time so that future people can understand the meaning...)
10:58:35 <fantasai> fsasaki: please join us at 4 o'clock wrt that
10:58:47 <fantasai> Ivan thanks everyone for participation
10:59:03 <rigo> zakim, bye
10:59:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #digpub
10:59:05 <fantasai> and closes the meeting
10:59:10 <fantasai> Meeting closed.
10:59:29 <fsasaki> for the record: we wil discuss topic of getting metadata out of XML or other formats into HTML5 in the multilingual web session 4 p.m. today, if you are interested please join
10:59:35 <karen_> rragent, make minutes
10:59:37 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
10:59:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-digpub-minutes.html ivan
10:59:52 <ivan> rrsagent, set draft public
10:59:52 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'set draft public', ivan.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
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11:00:10 <ivan> rrsagent, make minutes public
11:00:10 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', ivan.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
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11:00:44 <fsasaki> for the record: 45 people in the session (counted)
11:00:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-digpub-minutes.html fsasaki
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