IRC log of webrtc on 2012-10-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:36:07 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
07:36:09 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
07:36:09 [Zakim]
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07:36:11 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be RTC
07:36:11 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see UW_Web RTC()3:00AM already started
07:36:12 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Real-Time Communications Working Group Teleconference
07:36:12 [trackbot]
Date: 30 October 2012
07:36:17 [dom]
Zakim, call rhone_1
07:36:17 [Zakim]
ok, dom; the call is being made
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07:37:08 [dom]
Zakim, call rhone_1
07:37:08 [Zakim]
ok, dom; the call is being made
07:37:09 [Zakim]
07:38:38 [martin]
Topic: Identity
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07:39:54 [dom]
ScribeNick: DanD
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07:40:14 [DanD]
Topic: Identity
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07:43:48 [DanD]
ekr presenting
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07:48:43 [DanD]
ekr: Three proposals on the list
07:49:25 [DanD]
.. Proposal 1 - Identity provided by gUM (Thompson)
07:50:44 [martin]
07:51:34 [Zakim]
07:52:17 [timpanton]
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07:52:52 [DanD]
.. Proposal 2: Prompt user after call (Ohlsson)
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07:54:45 [DanD]
..Proposal 3 - Site permissions with identity display (EKR)
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07:56:54 [DanD]
.. Proposals 1 and 2 require the user to explicitly assent to identity
07:57:30 [DanD]
fluffy: How does the person answering the call who's calling before answering the call?
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07:59:15 [DanD]
ekr: Long term consent
07:59:23 [DanD]
Mathew: I like to setup the video selection and enable the camera and the identity makes it complicated
07:59:38 [DanD]
.. easy to be done with proposal 1
08:00:15 [DanD]
Mathew: We need to make sure the browser does not get into the address book without user's consent
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08:02:16 [DanD]
hta: I'm not happy with proposal 2
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08:02:46 [DanD]
.. when the green light go on
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08:03:02 [DanD]
.. I have an origin that is not bound to an identity but later get's bound
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08:03:24 [DanD]
ekr: Proposal 3 is a hybrid of 1 and 2
08:04:38 [SungOk_You]
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08:06:26 [DanD]
<correction> Proposal 4 is a hybrid of 1 and 3
08:06:59 [dom]
dom: I don't think we should use a null value for a parameter with a different meaning as a parameter not being set
08:07:10 [dom]
ekr: I'm happy to use a different parameter name for option3
08:07:46 [gmandyam]
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08:09:27 [DanD]
justin: There's a difference between site having access to the camera and site recording
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08:10:04 [DanD]
dom: We're focusing too much on the green light where mobile devices don't have a green light
08:10:33 [DanD]
martin: the idea is to have an indicator in the chrome
08:10:56 [DanD]
justin: there's confusion about what the green light means
08:11:15 [dom]
s/don't have a green light/don't have a green light; I want to make sure we don't build security on top of hardware indicators that are not always available/
08:12:21 [DanD]
fluffy: we are adding to the confusion
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08:13:05 [DanD]
ekr: the green light (the indicator) is supposed to be on once the camera is accessed
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08:14:45 [DanD]
hta: there is a issue when applications via USB can access the green light
08:14:59 [DanD]
martin: if it's on can drain battery without sending any data
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08:16:35 [DanD]
fluffy: expectation is that when camera goes on light goes on
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08:19:45 [DanD]
ekr: going over the proposed rule
08:21:33 [DanD]
dom: I'm a little bit confused. if the indicator is in the chrome I won't see it if I switch to a different app (on a mobile phone)
08:22:33 [DanD]
ekr: we should
08:23:10 [dom]
s/phone)/phone); how does that affect the reliability of granting access to a camera to a peer/
08:23:16 [matthew]
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08:23:16 [DanD]
Mathew: will we be able to check for long term permissions?
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08:25:32 [DanD]
.. action on ekr to write something up on tainted streams
08:25:51 [DanD]
hta: suggest camera access as a topic for the other issues later today
08:26:16 [DanD]
Topic: API for removing streams
08:26:45 [DanD]
hta: presenting what "remove" means
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08:29:19 [Zakim]
08:30:06 [DanD]
fluffy: we should not look at index
08:31:24 [DanD]
hta: either we don't remove the streams and you have a fixed index
08:31:58 [DanD]
adam: if we reference it by object even if it's removed from the array I can still find it by object reference
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08:32:26 [DanD]
dom: this is what DOM is doing
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08:34:20 [DanD]
hta: in this proposal I have two methods to access: one by returning all and iterate another one by name
08:34:25 [DanD]
fluffy: why are we handing developers indexes when they can get them by name
08:36:11 [DanD]
dom: using index is not a bad thing as long as it doesn't change
08:36:21 [DanD]
adam: I don't think you want to have the sequence because developer can store the sequence and can change later
08:39:06 [dom]
s/as long as it doesn't change/as long as you don't assume that what it refers to is immutable/
08:39:07 [DanD]
.. the msid draft has already a proposal how to name things
08:39:20 [DanD]
hta: we need to decide if we want to get rid of the indexes and go with the labels
08:39:38 [DanD]
Mathew: legacy devices might not label
08:40:03 [DanD]
Adam: we should go with ID's for both streams and tracks
08:40:33 [DanD]
hta: we need somebody to write a proposal
08:40:50 [martin]
there seemed to be general agreement with Adam's suggestion, namely assigning ids to every stream and track and having label used only for human-readable text
08:40:51 [dom]
ACTION: Adam to update APIs to use mutable arrays of streams in peerconnection with ids
08:40:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-59 - Update APIs to use mutable arrays of streams in peerconnection with ids [on Adam Bergkvist - due 2012-11-06].
08:41:44 [DanD]
hta: presenting API requirements
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08:42:15 [DanD]
Topic: DTMF
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08:44:43 [DanD]
.. proposal to have two new functions on RTCPeerConnection
08:47:58 [DanD]
justin: I like the idea of having the callback with tone and duration
08:49:02 [DanD]
Martin: the proposal was to have a track (something that looks like a track)
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08:49:13 [DanD]
hta: what's the factory for that track?
08:49:21 [DanD]
Martin: you construct it
08:50:18 [Zakim]
08:51:16 [DanD]
hta: now you need to the go from the track to the peerConnection
08:51:37 [DanD]
Martin: you get the track from getUserMedia, you decorate it for DTMF and attach to the peerConnection
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08:52:47 [DanD]
Martin: on the receiving end it's simple
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08:53:21 [DanD]
hta: If I would be to implement where do I reliably place this?
08:53:31 [DanD]
Fluffy: How do you know to negociate for DTMF?
08:54:06 [DanD]
.. another one is long tones use cases
08:54:25 [DanD]
justin: you can emulate this with the proposal
08:54:58 [DanD]
fluffy: I"m fine with getting rid of the long tones
08:55:35 [DanD]
Stefanh: I like the proposal. I'd like more control on the outgoing part
08:56:19 [DanD]
burn: I think you can have the DTMF track be created by the peerConnection
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08:59:11 [DanD]
justin: I support hta's proposal
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09:03:24 [DanD]
hta: I'll modify the proposal to incorporate burn's suggestion
09:05:16 [DanD]
Topic: Other business
09:05:44 [DanD]
hta: reviewing the collected items for discussion
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09:08:12 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:08:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate dom
09:08:38 [martin]
Topic: What Triggers Candidate Fetching
09:09:25 [DanD]
Topic: What triggers candidate fetching
09:10:08 [DanD]
Mathew: Use case is when a web page displays "call agent" . I don't want all the visitors of the page to use my turn servers
09:10:53 [DanD]
ekr: This should not be a problem
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09:13:34 [DanD]
hta: I don't understand why the use case is not satisfied
09:15:44 [DanD]
Martin: you want to load the page and show as quickly as possible
09:15:52 [DanD]
justin: we have two mechanisms to control the candidates gathering
09:17:04 [DanD]
Justin: you can do that now
09:17:16 [Zakim]
09:17:35 [Zakim]
09:17:45 [DanD]
Martin: this brings us to changing constraints on the fly
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09:20:46 [DanD]
fluffy: we want to preallocate now were' talking about how to do it in the API design
09:20:57 [DanD]
justin: you would know what you need if you call setLocal
09:21:32 [DanD]
fluffy: you can optimistically assume two
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09:24:20 [DanD]
Mathew: you got two use cases: the conference model where you call in to a conference or the public page. We need to support both efficiently
09:25:02 [Zakim]
09:26:34 [DanD]
fluffy: can we try to make a proposal
09:27:16 [Zakim]
09:27:52 [DanD]
.. it's less elegant but should work
09:28:14 [DanD]
justin: we can do this using setLocal
09:28:37 [DanD]
fluffy: I have a different proposal. Have a constraint that defines the preallocated streams
09:29:13 [DanD]
ekr: it's fine for me
09:29:52 [DanD]
hta: is this sort of creating a pool?
09:29:59 [DanD]
fluffy: yes
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09:31:10 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:31:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate dom
09:31:22 [martin]
proposal is to add a new constraint preallocateCandidates, which takes an integer value that defaults to zero. setting this to any other value through the constructor or updateIce triggers the filling of a candidate set pool of that size. final actions are taken on setLocalDescription
09:31:31 [DanD]
hta: decision to go with the proposal to create a pool
09:32:37 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:32:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate dom
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09:37:29 [Zakim]
- +44.190.881.aaaa
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10:06:51 [martin]
cullen will take an action to follow up on the last issue (see my last item starting with "proposal")
10:07:13 [juberti]
Next topic: when is SDP sendable
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10:08:08 [juberti]
When do we know if we have all streams?
10:08:14 [dom]
Topic: When is SDP sendable?
10:08:34 [martin]
my proposal for this was that the success callback would fire, at which time the array^Wcollection would include all the streams
10:09:53 [juberti]
cullen: this doesn't let you know whether a stream was added or removed.
10:10:52 [juberti]
matthew: that doesn't work in all cases anyway; imagine calling setRemoteDescription twice, the second time before all callbacks have been received.
10:11:20 [juberti]
cullen: on all functions that have callbacks, you can't call the function again before the callbacks have dispatched.
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10:12:32 [juberti]
juberti: this would be setLocal, setRemote, createOffer, createAnswer.
10:12:40 [juberti]
ekr: what about getUserMedia?
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10:12:55 [juberti]
… should be possible to ask for multiple cameras.
10:14:15 [juberti]
juberti: I have a proposal to handle the getUserMedia case.
10:14:40 [juberti]
adambe: what about onaddtrack events?
10:15:06 [juberti]
adambe: do we need onaddtrack when a stream is added?
10:15:31 [juberti]
cullen: I read the spec, I think it says any time the remote side adds a track, you need a callback.
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10:16:01 [juberti]
adambe: there's also an onunmute event on tracks too.
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10:17:02 [juberti]
adambe: how about only onaddtrack only when a stream is updated, as opposed to added/removed?
10:17:07 [juberti]
juberti: I like that proposal.
10:17:10 [juberti]
cullen: I don't.
10:17:24 [juberti]
martin: Let's address the stream callbacks first.
10:17:32 [juberti]
hta: Let's do that.
10:17:58 [juberti]
martin: setLocal, setRemote, createOffer, createAnswer should all be non-reentrant.
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10:18:38 [fluffy]
proposal is that that the createOffer / createAnser, setLocal, setRemote, you can not call the same function again if the callback from a previous invocation has not returned
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10:19:20 [juberti]
martin: during time between setRemote and callback, exceptions should occur on any of these 4 APIs.
10:20:17 [juberti]
martin: when you call setRemote, stuff will happen, but the browser will return to stable state multiple times.
10:20:22 [fluffy]
On set remote, you install all the stuff, then does does callback for onaddstream for each stream, then does callback with null to on add stream, then it call the success callback for set remote
10:21:00 [juberti]
dom: do any other APIs do this?
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10:21:19 [juberti]
anant: in XHR, some things are disallowed while it is running.
10:21:48 [juberti]
martin: during state transitions, no other transitions are allowed.
10:22:03 [juberti]
anant: you can't call open on the same XHR twice.
10:22:54 [juberti]
stefan: might this introduce a timing problem? some browsers are slower than others?
10:23:02 [juberti]
dom: I don't think so
10:23:37 [juberti]
cullen: I would guess that this is an atomic change, and it takes some time - I would look at some API that has similar needs
10:23:43 [juberti]
dom: maybe IndexedDB
10:24:10 [juberti]
jimbarnett: call should block instead of throwing exception
10:24:56 [juberti]
adambe: if you get onrenegotiationneeded, that could cause a problem
10:25:01 [kotakagi]
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10:25:11 [juberti]
cullen: onrenegotiationneeded fires after the success/error callback, if needed.
10:25:33 [massimo]
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10:25:39 [juberti]
martin: queuing of calls could work OK.
10:26:34 [juberti]
cullen: one lock across all 4 APIs.
10:28:03 [timpanton]
The way most UI APIs deal with this is to say that those functions can only be called on the 'main' thread
10:28:14 [juberti]
hta: proposal is: when calling one of these APIs - check args, throw exception if needed, check lock, do work or queue task if needed.
10:28:56 [timpanton]
if the callback is also invoked on the same thread, this makes the thing queue naturally.
10:29:24 [juberti]
hta: nobody argued for throwing an exception instead of queueing.
10:29:40 [juberti]
hta: anent to write up the details here.
10:29:52 [dom]
ACTION: Anant to write up queuing mechanism for set{Remote,Local}Description, create{Offer,Answer}
10:29:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-60 - Write up queuing mechanism for set{Remote,Local}Description, create{Offer,Answer} [on Anant Narayanan - due 2012-11-06].
10:30:07 [martin]
callbacks have to be called on the same thread, there is only one thread
10:30:26 [juberti]
juberti: when does onaddstream fire?
10:30:31 [timpanton]
So how could you get re-entrancy ?
10:31:12 [juberti]
hta: onaddstream fires after installation is complete, but before the success callback has been dispatched.
10:31:28 [martin]
re-entrancy applies only in the sense that the actions associated with the methods take time and so could (conceivably, without these measures) operate in parallel
10:31:48 [juberti]
burn: no add stream for failures, naturally
10:31:52 [martin]
the actions occur on browser-internal threads or "in the network"
10:32:16 [timpanton]
ok. got it.
10:32:52 [juberti]
juberti: when is pc.remoteStreams updated?
10:34:01 [Alan]
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10:34:47 [juberti]
adambe: before the first onaddstream callback is fired, remoteStreams will be fully up to date with the changes.
10:35:00 [juberti]
derf: <same thing>
10:35:26 [juberti]
cullen: stream names are confusing.
10:35:41 [juberti]
derf: event callbacks need to change to be less confusing.
10:35:53 [juberti]
ACTION: derf to write up proposal for new stream event names.
10:35:53 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find derf. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
10:36:12 [juberti]
ACTION: Tim to write up proposal for new stream event names.
10:36:12 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find Tim. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
10:36:45 [dom]
ACTION: Timothy to write up proposal for new stream event names.
10:37:19 [juberti]
Topic: when is SDP sendable?
10:37:48 [juberti]
matthew: if SessionDescription is 3264 SDP, that SDP must always be 3264-compliant.
10:38:21 [juberti]
cullen: if you can't do local candidates, we should return an error when trying to write SDP.
10:38:27 [juberti]
matthew: will trickle update 3264?
10:38:38 [juberti]
cullen: I think we'll need to.
10:39:13 [juberti]
matthew: if we're doing trickle, we're going to need to update something.
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10:40:32 [Zakim]
+ +44.190.881.aabb
10:41:00 [juberti]
matthew: how do we generate workable SDP when trickling?
10:41:12 [juberti]
matthew: Chrome currently generates broken SDP?
10:41:37 [juberti]
matthew: How do I get valid SDP in the non-trickle case?
10:41:55 [juberti]
cullen: wait for ICE complete callback, then SDP will be fully filled-in.
10:42:54 [juberti]
matthew: but what about the initial setLocal? That SDP isn't fully valid.
10:43:10 [juberti]
juberti: That is just a subset of the trickle case.
10:44:06 [juberti]
matthew: But the SDP still isn't valid.
10:47:58 [juberti]
juberti: We are going to solve this with the trickle ICE I-D.
10:50:26 [juberti]
… and then the rest of the stuff should fall into place. You can call setLocal with an initial "no candidates" SDP, and then gathering commences.
10:51:13 [juberti]
hta: we'll refer this to the IETF rtcweb WG to figure this out, and then we can resume this discussion.
10:51:30 [juberti]
topic: QoS label security
10:51:41 [juberti]
Topic: Security for QoS labels
10:53:37 [juberti]
matthew: Want to see API where packet priorities can be set.
10:54:04 [juberti]
hta: culler's proposal does this - gives 3 levels of priorities.
10:54:52 [juberti]
cullen: API that provides 3, 4, etc levels
10:55:08 [juberti]
matthew: I don't know which one is more important.
10:55:30 [juberti]
matthew: data could be above or below media (gaming, higher, file transfer, lower)
10:56:03 [juberti]
dand: where would this priority be set from an API perspective
10:56:17 [juberti]
stefan: on a track or datachannel.
10:56:31 [dom]
there was a (currently abandonned) proposal for setPriority on XHR that also had 4 levels FWIW
10:57:00 [juberti]
matthew: someone needs to write up a proposal for where these things go.
10:57:20 [juberti]
hta: set at initialization, or during the call?
10:57:51 [juberti]
matthew: I think it could be initialization.
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10:58:12 [juberti]
dand: once we get this request, we need a confirmation from the browser that it tried to accomplish this.
10:58:17 [juberti]
martin: why?
10:59:15 [juberti]
dand: this request can be fulfilled by going to a policy server.
10:59:38 [juberti]
matthew: I don't care about marking, I just care about the congestion control prioritization
11:02:11 [juberti]
matthew: not all packets will be labeled the same way
11:02:31 [kseo2]
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11:02:34 [juberti]
matthew: either for different streams, or different packets in the same stram
11:02:51 [juberti]
hta: need to set priority levels, and have it per track, and have 3 or 4 levels.
11:03:11 [juberti]
hta: this will set congestion control/queuing in the browser, and setting of QoS is something for further study
11:03:21 [juberti]
matthew: cullen has already written a draft
11:04:02 [juberti]
goran: cullen's draft refers to other drafts
11:04:11 [juberti]
cullen: we will remove that reference.
11:05:11 [juberti]
cullen: we don't want JS to set the diffserv code points, but we do want it to be able to discover them.
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11:05:27 [juberti]
hta: want mapping from track to 6-tuple?
11:05:50 [juberti]
Action: Cullen to update draft to remove reference.
11:05:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-61 - Update draft to remove reference. [on Cullen Jennings - due 2012-11-06].
11:06:03 [juberti]
Action. stefanh to propose priority API.
11:06:53 [Zakim]
11:07:00 [juberti]
Action: stefanh to propose priority API.
11:07:00 [trackbot]
Could not create new action (unparseable data in server response: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 1: ordinal not in range(128)) - please contact sysreq with the details of what happened.
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Action: stefanh to propose priority API.
11:07:22 [trackbot]
Could not create new action (unparseable data in server response: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 1: ordinal not in range(128)) - please contact sysreq with the details of what happened.
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Adjourning for lunch.
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11:10:46 [Zakim]
- +44.190.881.aabb
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12:17:49 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:17:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate dom
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Everyone, the following session is in #mediacap
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12:22:59 [dom]
dom has changed the topic to: Media Capture TF Meeting on #mediacap
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+ +44.190.881.aacc
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12:37:43 [dom]
Zakim, who's on the call?
12:37:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Rhone_1, +44.190.881.aacc
12:37:56 [dom]
Zakim, code?
12:37:56 [Zakim]
the conference code is 9782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, dom
12:38:21 [Zakim]
UW_Web RTC()3:00AM has been moved to #mediacap by dom
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