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07:54:26 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
07:54:35 <ArtB> Scribe: Josh_Soref
07:55:01 <ArtB> Meeting: WebApps F2F Meeting
07:55:07 <ArtB> Date: 30 November 2012
07:55:18 <ArtB> Chair: Art, Charles
07:55:43 <ArtB> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/TPAC2012Meeting
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07:57:54 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Adrian_Bateman, Tobie_Langel, Arnaud_Braud, Olli_Pettay, Mike_Smith, Bryan_Sullivan, Hao_Dong, Magnus_Olsson, Wayne_Carr, Jonas_Sicking,
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07:58:33 <Arnaud> present+ Arnaud_Braud
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07:59:55 <aizu> Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu
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08:01:42 <tomoyuki> present+ Tomoyuki_Shimizu
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08:06:52 <Lachy> scribenick: Lachy
08:07:12 <ArtB> Present: Simon_Pieters, James_Graham, Lachlan_Hunt
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08:07:22 <ArtB> ScribeNick: Lachy
08:07:25 <Lachy> chaals: we'll begin, first, figure out what's left on the agenda
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08:07:32 <Lachy> … Process stuff to continue with
08:07:41 <takuya> takuya has joined #webapps
08:07:43 <ArtB> Topic: Agenda Bashing
08:07:47 <edoyle> edoyle has joined #webapps
08:07:50 <Lachy> … real discussions: Offline app cache, widget packaging, proposals, etc.
08:08:07 <Arno> Arno has joined #webapps
08:08:13 <Lachy> … IME, Selectors API 2. Short, do together in a session
08:08:16 <Lachy> … Testing.
08:08:29 <Lachy> … We have a session on web intents at 16:45
08:08:43 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:08:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
08:09:06 <Lachy> IDL2. Do people want to get into technial discussion?
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08:09:11 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
08:09:15 <Cyril> Cyril has joined #webapps
08:09:16 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:09:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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08:09:23 <Lachy> … Maybe/
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08:09:46 <Lachy> … It's possible that next year's TPAC will be in Asia.
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08:10:00 <Lachy> We are proposing to have an F2F in Silicon Valley for HTML and WebApps
08:10:09 <Lachy> We did it in May this year. Think it was worth doing
08:10:14 <Lachy> … Anyone object?
08:10:15 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Adrian_Bateman, Tobie_Langel, Arnaud_Braud, Olli_Pettay, Mike_Smith, Bryan_Sullivan, Hao_Dong, Magnus_Olsson, Wayne_Carr, Jonas_Sicking, Simon_Pieters, James_Graham, Lachlan_Hunt
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08:10:33 <sgodard> Present+ sgodard
08:10:44 <Lachy> … Assuming people want to turn up. The current idea is the week of April 22. HTML gets a couple fo days, webapps gets a couple of days.
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08:11:02 <aizu> Present+Hiroyuki_Aizu
08:11:04 <sgodard> s/fo/of
08:11:09 <Lachy> … Who would be likely to turn up in CA in April? [Dozen or so hands raised]
08:11:10 <ArtB> Present+ Brady_Eidson, Maciej_Stachowiak, Wonsuk_Lee
08:11:18 <Norbert> present+ Norbert_Lindenberg
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08:11:47 <Lachy> …One of the things worth thinking about is that we have virtually no joint meetings at this F2F. TPAC is where we can invite other groups to talk to us.
08:11:48 <ArtB> Present+ Adam_Klein
08:12:01 <shan> Present+ Soonbo_Han
08:12:03 <ArtB> Present+ Travi_Leithead
08:12:10 <rsleevi> Present+ Ryan_Sleevi
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08:12:15 <ArtB> s/Travi_Leithead/Travis_Leithead/
08:12:22 <Lachy> … We should think about the groups who we should be talking to.
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08:12:40 <Lachy> … Templates. Are we going to make any progress today? Worth continuing?
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08:13:01 <aizu> Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu
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08:13:14 <Lachy> … No. Drop it off the agenda.
08:13:41 <Lachy> … Paul suggested yesterday that a zip archive API would be useful. There have been proposals before.
08:13:42 <ArtB> Present+ Kenji_Baheux
08:13:49 <Lachy> … It's probably not in our current charter.
08:14:05 <Lachy> … The rule is that we have to change the charter to work on new work. Complicated process.
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08:14:11 <Lachy> … Do we think it's worth doing?
08:14:22 <Lachy> Jonas: We just shipped an API for this.
08:14:26 <Lachy> … We think it would be useful.
08:14:30 <ArtB> Present+ Julian_Aubourg
08:14:42 <Lachy> s/Jonas/sicking/
08:14:49 <bryan> +1 to considering zip archive API
08:15:03 <ArtB> Present+ Eduardo_Fullea
08:15:05 <sgodard> +1 for ZIP archive API
08:15:07 <Lachy> XXX: When we talked about App cache in London, there was a lot of use cases that could be fulfilled by the archive API.
08:15:21 <Lachy> Chaals: does anyone object?
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08:15:40 <Lachy> maciej: Can someone give a brief pitch about why it's useful for the platform?
08:15:46 <bryan> s/XXX/tobie/
08:15:47 <adrianba> s/XXX/tobie/
08:16:11 <tobie> q+
08:16:17 <ArtB> Mozilla bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=772434
08:16:23 <Lachy> sicking: The requests have come from the gaming community. They make a single request to download resources for a game. Want to be able to extract specific files as needed from the package.
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08:16:43 <Lachy> … Reduce number of requests, getting compression from zip.
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08:17:15 <Lachy> maciej: has anyone done any testing to see if zip performance is better than other approaches?
08:17:16 <Jungkee> Present+ Jungkee_Song
08:17:19 <Lachy> sicking: no.
08:17:25 <bryan> the use cases I am thinking of are similar, e.g. generically the ability to download content as a package and store locally for use in the app
08:17:35 <Lachy> … I don't think it's just performance. Convenient for deployment to have a single file.
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08:17:44 <ArtB> Present+ Odin_Horthe_Omdal
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08:17:55 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:17:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
08:17:55 <Lachy> chaals: Chair hat off. One of our metrics is developer convenience
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08:18:07 <Lachy> … People are used to working with zip archives, have tools for it.
08:18:19 <ArtB> Present+ Sakari_Poussa
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08:18:30 <Lachy> … Could argue that HTTP pipelining is an alternative approach, but working with zip is something people are used to doing and won't be difficult.
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08:18:53 <Lachy> sicking: We did do an API and got feedback saying it wasn't the right approach. There are many ways to do it, difficult to get right.
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08:19:14 <Lachy> maciej: For the use cases, it seems useful to download a zip and then reference its resources by URL.
08:19:27 <Lachy> sicking. It would be useful to have a zip protocol handler.
08:19:46 <Lachy> … It could possibly work with a URL, like jar handler.
08:19:54 <Lachy> maciej: Is there a list of these use cases?
08:19:59 <Lachy> sicking: I can get them.
08:20:09 <Lachy> chaals: We need to go through formal call for concensus.
08:20:15 <Wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
08:20:24 <Lachy> … The decisions in this meeting aren't binding; call for concensus on mailing list.
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08:20:50 <Lachy> … The next step will be to send a proposal to the list, make a formal work item, have call for concensus on the list.
08:21:12 <mounir> Present+ Mounir_Lamouri
08:21:13 <Lachy> … We can get into the technical details then.
08:21:39 <Lachy> ACTION: Chaals: Get the ZIP archive proposal on the table as a formal work item.
08:21:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-673 - Get the ZIP archive proposal on the table as a formal work item. [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2012-11-06].
08:21:49 <Lachy> maciej: I want to the use cases on the table.
08:22:12 <Lachy> chaals: We will. That comes with the proposal. Discussion about it will take place over several weeks.
08:22:52 <Lachy> … Testing. We had this as an agenda topic.
08:23:13 <Lachy> … We could spend a lot of time looking in details, or we could spend the extra time actually making tests.
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08:23:27 <Lachy> Topic: Testing
08:23:39 <Lachy> Chaals: We need a test facilitator.
08:24:14 <Lachy> … It's useful to have a person overseeing the creation of the testsuite. Not necessarily writes all the tests themselves.
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08:24:17 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:24:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
08:24:25 <Lachy> … I have a list of specs that currently don't have a test facilitator.
08:24:33 <Lachy> … I'm going to read them out, ask for volunteers.
08:24:56 <Lachy> Art: People can think about it and get back to chaals or I.
08:25:22 <Lachy> Chaals: The list of things we want is someone to co-ordinate things for DOM Parsing and Serialisation
08:25:29 <Lachy> … All of the file specs.
08:25:33 <Lachy> … XHR
08:25:43 <Lachy> … Full screen API
08:25:49 <Lachy> … Gamepad
08:25:53 <Lachy> … Templates
08:26:28 <Lachy> … Progress events
08:26:40 <Lachy> … This is a pretty small thing, but kind of annoying because you need another spec to test them in.
08:26:57 <Lachy> … Push API.
08:27:01 <Lachy> … Pointer API
08:27:08 <Lachy> … Server sent events.
08:27:12 <Lachy> … Screen orientation
08:27:17 <Lachy> … Streams
08:27:24 <Lachy> … App Manifest
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08:28:35 <Lachy> jgraham, The point of the test facilitator is not that you have to write the tests. You take responsibility for making sure there is a test suite.
08:28:44 <Lachy> julian: I volunteer for XHR
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08:29:48 <Lachy> Sgodeard: I volunteer for App Manifest
08:30:05 <sgodard> s/Sgodeard/sgodard
08:30:34 <Lachy> chaals: I have a proposal for something that falls into the App Cache area. Not sure if this is the right group. Called Prefetch.
08:31:15 <Lachy> … It allows a site that uses a lot of resources again and again, give a manifest of files to prefetch.
08:31:24 <Lachy> … Not sure if I'm going to propose it as a work item.
08:31:35 <Lachy> Topic: Introductions
08:32:17 <Lachy> XXX, YYY, ECMAScript.
08:32:40 <ArtB> Present+ Greg_Billock, Alexandre_Morgaut
08:32:46 <Lachy> [inaudible]
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08:33:09 <Lachy> XXX, Telefonica, used to be AC Rep. Push API
08:33:33 <MikeSmith> s/XXX, YYY, ECMAScript/Norbert Lindenberg working on ECMAScript Internationalization API under contract for Mozilla/
08:33:35 <ArtB> s/XXX, YYY/Norbert Linbenberg/
08:33:37 <Lachy> Topic: IME
08:33:51 <Lachy> AAA: I would like to talk about IME API.
08:34:12 <Lachy> … Today I would like to show use cases, explain what IME is.
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08:34:21 <Lachy> … It would help if I could present something on the screen.
08:34:25 <ArtB> s/AAA:/Kenji Baheux/
08:34:40 <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:34:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
08:35:06 <Lachy> Chaals: We had a discussion about IME. Someone started making a sales pitch about why it's a great thing. Don't give us the sales pitch, give us the usecases.
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08:35:43 <Lachy> Kenji Baheux: Starting with the use cases
08:36:05 <Lachy> … The first one is on search websites, there are suggestions for what the user is currently typing.
08:36:17 <Lachy> … Bad overlap from the IME suggestions and the search suggestions.
08:36:30 <Lachy> … A lot of complaints from Chinese and Japanese users.
08:36:56 <Lachy> … Suggestions shown based on Kanji.
08:37:08 <Lachy> … Overlapping suggesitons shown on screen.
08:37:09 <ArtB> Present+ Kris_Krueger
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08:37:29 <Lachy> … Try to find a better way to combine search suggestions and IME suggestions.
08:37:43 <Lachy> … Second category. Games.
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08:38:22 <Lachy> … Two use cases. 1. On Windows, if you play a FPS game, and you press one of the IME keys, it creates problems. Need to avoid IME menu interferring with game.
08:38:53 <Lachy> … 2. Entering a name in a game, native UI for IME suggestion doesn't fit with game design UI.
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08:39:48 <Lachy> … Third; Presentation software. Editing text in fields using IME interfers with live preview.
08:40:18 <Lachy> … Sample API shown on screen.
08:40:20 <adrianba> q?
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08:40:32 <Lachy> chaals: There is a discussion in HTML about Input Mode.
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08:40:58 <Lachy> … When you have an input for text or phone numbers, right now, it's kind of painful. Being able to give a hint about expected input is useful.
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08:41:31 <Lachy> … e.g. If I have my keyboard set to Russion, username in russion, password in english. Is that usecase related?
08:41:46 <Lachy> Kenji Baheux: Somewhat related.
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08:42:11 <adrianba> q+
08:42:20 <Lachy> chaals: What's the implementation status?
08:42:28 <Lachy> Kenji Baheux: No implementation.
08:42:36 <Lachy> Chaals: Would anyone like to work on it?
08:43:10 <Lachy> adrianba, I recognise the use cases. I wasn't completely clear on the scope of the proposal. Can you clarify for me which use cases are solving with the current spec?
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08:43:34 <Lachy> KenjiBX: Currently in scope: Composition stream.
08:43:44 <ArtB> Present+ Hallvord_Steen
08:44:05 <Lachy> … Also get the different boundaries.
08:44:15 <Lachy> … Can also render your own composition text.
08:44:16 <odinho_> -> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#input-modalities:-the-inputmode-attribute The @inputmode attribute in HTML
08:44:17 <mounir> q+
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08:45:07 <Lachy> … You can let the browser know what's happening so it can avoid the system IME and show your custom IME.
08:46:08 <Lachy> … Games case not covered by the spec.
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08:46:20 <Lachy> … Presentation case is covered.
08:46:25 <Lachy> ack adrianba
08:46:41 <odinho_> s/Games/Custom IME design for games/
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08:46:52 <Lachy> adrianba, You mentioned the JavaScript API for disabling the IME. For a long time in IE, we've had IME mode CSS mechanism for disabling IME.
08:47:00 <chaals> [Sorry Dmitry, but it was when you started getting impassioned that it started turning into a sales pitch… I thought you had explained your technical perspective well enough to let people think about the ideas...]
08:47:06 <Lachy> … It's in one of the draft specs. Have you considered that and is it similar?
08:47:28 <Lachy> KenjiBX, There is a function for that to hit at that. Similar to CSS, but in JS.
08:47:44 <Lachy> adrianba, maybe we could consider if we need both.
08:47:58 <mjs> q+
08:48:18 <Lachy> adrianba: Microsoft is interested in improving this general area, but highest priority is the the use case around positioning.
08:48:30 <Lachy> … Seems like it's not currently covered by the spec.
08:48:43 <Lachy> … If we add that, it would be substantial scope change.
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08:49:07 <Lachy> … that's the place where we'd most like to work on this. What are your priorities?
08:49:21 <Lachy> KenjiBX: I'm interested in that. Thought about it.
08:50:06 <Lachy> ack mounir
08:50:09 <takuya> q+
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08:50:29 <Lachy> mounir: First use case is like a UA implementation details.
08:50:39 <Lachy> … The UA could just show it quietly and not have the two UIs.
08:50:44 <odinho_> s/and show your custom IME/or adapt the site design and behaviour to the IME/
08:50:48 <chaals> s/quietly/correctly/
08:50:56 <Lachy> … I was wondering for the styling use case. Have you considered CSS?
08:51:16 <Lachy> KenjiBX: Yes.
08:51:27 <Lachy> [could not hear answer properly]
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08:51:47 <Lachy> mounir: Why don't you think it's a UA implementation detail?
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08:52:10 <Lachy> KenjiBX: I think it's better to let the web app decide on the best UX for this case.
08:52:37 <Lachy> maciej: I think there might be a misunderstanding. The candidate window is provided by the OS, the suggestions are provided by the web app.
08:52:43 <chaals> ack mou
08:53:04 <Lachy> … Need to tell the IME system where to put the IME popup.
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08:53:22 <Lachy> … I agree with Microsoft about what the most important use cases are. Avoiding candidate window and overlap.
08:53:31 <Lachy> … The other cases seem periferal.
08:53:53 <odinho_> ack mjs
08:54:11 <Lachy> … It seems to be designed solely for the purpose of implementing their own input methods. I don't think that is a good idea. JS implementations are not likely to work across devices.
08:54:13 <adrianba> q?
08:54:15 <odinho_> ack takuya
08:54:18 <adrianba> q+ chaals
08:54:20 <chaals> q+
08:54:43 <MikeSmith> pbakaus, we're talking about IME here in webapps
08:55:02 <Lachy> KenjiBX: The current draft says the UA can get the current position of the candidate window. [???]
08:55:54 <Lachy> chaals: chair hat off: In many ways I agree that JS is a terrible way to handle user input in general. Handling keyboard input breaks accessibility, etc.
08:55:58 <MikeSmith> ack chaals
08:56:06 <Lachy> … Except that we use it because the Operating Systems don't make things easy.
08:56:25 <Lachy> … In Yandex Translate, we provide an input method for converging latin characters into Russian, or vice versa.
08:56:44 <Lachy> … So I'm nervous about focussing on the use case of a site being able to build its own IME.
08:56:55 <Lachy> … The overlapping of the suggestion and IME is a bigger problem.
08:57:07 <Lachy> … Agree with mjs.
08:57:28 <Lachy> … A lot of assisted input systems fake being a keybaord. Concerned about the interaction with this API.
08:57:34 <mjs> q+
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08:57:52 <Lachy> … Authors make assumptions about the user's keyboard that are not true.
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08:58:09 <Lachy> … This is an area where I would expect comments about robustness.
08:58:21 <Lachy> … This is a warning of things I've seen go wrong
08:58:25 <Lachy> q?
08:58:28 <Lachy> ack mjs
08:58:45 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:58:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
08:59:05 <Lachy> mjs: For touch screen devices that have touch screen keyboards, if you've written a custom IME that works for keyboards, it's most likely going to break on the iPad virtual keyboard.
08:59:26 <Lachy> … I think using JS for this is intrinsicly not cross platform.
08:59:43 <Lachy> chaals: True, but my TV doesn't have a russion keyboard option.
08:59:59 <Lachy> Alex: I think it's interesting that there is a battle for control between the OS and JavaScript.
09:00:31 <Lachy> chaals: More technical comments?
09:00:32 <ArtB> Present+ Alex_Russell
09:00:33 <Lachy> q?
09:00:56 <Lachy> chaals: Break. No coffee for 30 minutes. 15 minute break. Then short session on selectors API 2.
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09:06:01 <Lachy> RRSAgent, make draft minutes
09:06:01 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make draft minutes', Lachy.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
09:06:06 <Lachy> RRSAgent, make minutes
09:06:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html Lachy
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09:17:30 <Lachy> topic: Selectors API Level 2
09:17:39 <mjs> ScribeNick: mjs
09:17:58 <mjs> LH: I'll start by giving an overview
09:18:15 <mjs> LH: functionality of the find and matches methods is pretty stable
09:18:19 <mjs> LH: test suite has many tests
09:18:26 <mjs> LH: hopefully we can get implementations soon
09:18:40 <mjs> LH: I'm hoping we can settle the naming issue for the methods find and findAll
09:18:59 <mjs> LH: Issue for parsing comments in selectors still needs to be addressed - hopefully CSS WG can address it in Selectors 4
09:19:14 <mjs> LH: there was a brief discussion with Anne about merging Selectors API v2 with DOM4
09:19:24 <mjs> LH: and possibly introducing extra functionality
09:19:35 <mjs> LH: I wanted to discuss the return type for the findAll method
09:19:48 <mjs> LH: NodeList, Array, or some new object that provides a combination of functionality
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09:19:54 <mjs> LH: Use cases:
09:20:03 <mjs> LH: (1) get a collection of elements as a result of the query
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09:20:13 <mjs> LH: (2) run methods that apply collectively to all the elements
09:20:24 <mjs> LH: right now you have to iterate individually
09:20:30 <chaals> q+ to try and squash the naming issue
09:20:34 <mjs> LH: (3) filter the list or run additional queries on the list
09:21:25 <mjs> LH: (4) do method chaining, just like in jQuery
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09:21:46 <mjs> LH: possible solutions:
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09:22:08 <mjs> LH: (a) normal JavaScript array - would give normal Array functionality but could not add selectors-specific methods
09:22:19 <mjs> LH: (b) return a NodeList; but no Array-like functionality
09:22:54 <mjs> LH: (c ) define a custom object which imports functionality from Array and NodeList, but adding Selectors-specific stuff
09:23:37 <mjs> AR: I'm from ECMA TC39; hard to add Array functionality due to NodeList because of closures
09:23:39 <odinho_> s/selectors-specific methods/selectors-specific methods (e.g. having a new .findAll() make a union)/
09:23:51 <mjs> AR: I'd prefer to define an Array subtype or to recast NodeList as an Array
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09:24:19 <mjs> AR: there's a preference to make these things Arrays from the pov of developers and JavaScript
09:24:27 <mjs> CMN: I'd like to address names
09:24:41 <mjs> CMN: everyone likes find(), findAll(), right?
09:24:45 <mjs> (no objections heard)
09:24:54 <mjs> CMN: that's straw consensus and it's a non-technical issue
09:24:58 <mjs> LH: that about covers it
09:25:17 <mjs> CMN: as an implementation question, what about compatibility?
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09:25:42 <mjs> LH: the problem with converting NodeList to an Array is that NodeLists are generally live in many uses so you can't import mutable methods from Array
09:25:50 <mjs> AR: I actually don't think that's a big problem
09:26:14 <mjs> AR: first, the liveness is a feature of someone else holding an API
09:26:31 <mjs> AR: this is not something that is foreign
09:26:42 <mjs> AR: but for the question of adding new invariants, we can model that with proxies
09:27:11 <mjs> CMN: any other comments, questions?
09:27:21 <mjs> LH: matches() is implemented with a prefix in all browsers
09:27:29 <mjs> LH: no one implements scope or reference nodes yet
09:27:43 <mjs> CMN: any other implementor notes?
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09:28:06 <mjs> TL: just an observation that the extra functionality for chaining seems like a much more generic feature - maybe should not be specific to Selectors API, maybe should be in DOM 4
09:28:19 <mjs> CMN: back to agenda
09:28:37 <mjs> CMN: working backwards, at 16:45 we have Web Intents - can't change that time, dial-in
09:28:48 <mjs> CMN: session on testing, James has agreed to lead
09:28:59 <mjs> CMN: the goal is to sit in the room and write tests - hands-on session
09:29:18 <mjs> CMN: will end at 16:45 and will begin when we finish everything else
09:29:26 <mjs> CMN: after lunch, short session on the Web Platform effort
09:29:35 <mjs> CMN: those guys do documentation, that's useful
09:29:54 <mjs> CMN: closer to the concerns of this group, a session on web driver
09:30:06 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
09:30:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
09:30:12 <mjs> CMN: test harness for browsers to avoid manual tests
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09:30:36 <mjs> CMN: at 11:15 (which means 11:30) we are going to have a session on appcache, offline cache, manifest formats, etc
09:30:42 <mjs> CMN: at 10:30, coffee break
09:30:53 <mjs> CMN: it's 10:30 now, coffee break
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10:18:26 <krisk> jgraham - let me know when you pushed the opera websocket tests and I'll help convert so of them
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10:25:26 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
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10:25:47 <ArtB> Topic: AppCache, Offline, Packaged WebApps, App Manifest, ...
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10:26:02 <ArtB> CMN: we have a couple of specs in our charter
10:26:07 <ArtB> … e.g. Widgets
10:26:12 <ArtB> … and application manifest
10:26:15 <timeless> scribe: Josh
10:26:18 <timeless> scribenick: timeless
10:26:26 <timeless> chaals: in html, there's AppCache
10:26:30 <timeless> ... loved by everybody
10:26:35 <timeless> ... because it allows you to do the same thing
10:26:42 <timeless> ... with wonderful functionality
10:26:50 <timeless> ... so wonderful that darobin will describe it
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10:27:00 <timeless> ... mozilla has a json based manifest
10:27:10 <timeless> ... i tossed into an email the prefetch stuff we're looking at
10:27:10 <ArtB> ED for App manifest is: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/app-manifest/raw-file/tip/index.html
10:27:17 <timeless> ... i don't know if this group is interested in this stuff
10:27:19 <timeless> ... we are
10:27:28 <timeless> ... because it gives big improvement in load times
10:27:33 <timeless> ... this is a free form discussion
10:27:35 <timeless> ... where are we at
10:27:42 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
10:27:45 <timeless> ... what are the pieces of this stuff and who are using it
10:27:49 <sicking> q+
10:27:51 <timeless> ... people are building widget systems
10:27:53 <timeless> ... can we unify it
10:28:03 <timeless> ... should it be our problem, html's problem, someone else's problem
10:28:11 <timeless> ... a lot of the people who can give input are in this room
10:28:23 <timeless> ... i'd like to start this discussion with what is html's appcache doing
10:28:45 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
10:28:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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10:29:03 <timeless> darobin: AppCache - a small group of people have been meeting in corners to take it to the WG
10:29:07 <ArtB> Present+ Robin_Berjon
10:29:09 <timeless> ... something will start happening "very soon"
10:29:13 <mjs> q+ to talk about venue
10:29:14 <timeless> ... as soon as html enters CR
10:29:20 <timeless> ... so in a few weeks
10:29:34 <timeless> ... i'd be happy for someone else to take it
10:29:43 <timeless> sicking: mozilla organized one of these corners
10:29:48 <timeless> ... we're very interested in making appcache work
10:29:54 <bryan> is there a doc ready to be shared from the dark corners, soon?
10:29:58 <timeless> ... from our point of view -- it doesn't
10:30:06 <timeless> s/these corners/these dark corners/
10:30:21 <timeless> ... from our point of view, how much back compat we keep is up for discussion
10:30:24 <tokamoto> tokamoto has joined #webapps
10:30:37 <timeless> ... we haven't had anyone to put together a proposal
10:30:41 <timeless> ... and we haven't found a good venue
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10:30:48 <darobin> q+
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10:30:50 <timeless> ... i'm reluctant to have someone submit a proposal to the HTML ML
10:30:55 <timeless> ... i'd prefer to have a separate ML
10:31:08 <timeless> ... a separate ML is required
10:31:16 <chaals> ack me
10:31:16 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to try and squash the naming issue
10:31:16 <timeless> ... i'd prefer to do it somewhere else
10:31:16 <timeless> ... either in this WG
10:31:19 <chaals> ack sic
10:31:22 <timeless> ... i believe it's still in our charter
10:31:28 <timeless> ... we can transfer from HTML to this WG
10:31:30 <timeless> ... or do it in a CG
10:31:43 <odinho_> ack mjs
10:31:43 <Zakim> mjs, you wanted to talk about venue
10:31:47 <timeless> mjs: w/ my HTML WG cochair hat
10:31:55 <timeless> ... i don't have a strong opinion about this WG or that WG
10:32:09 <timeless> ... there's definitely precedence for WebApps taking up when it's more non-markup level
10:32:20 <timeless> ... there's also precedence for adding apis on, such as data-cache api
10:32:29 <timeless> ... i don't think HTML WG would object
10:32:40 <timeless> ... i think HTML WG would support extensions to HTML
10:32:49 <timeless> ... w/ my vendor hat on, i'm ok w/ either group
10:32:57 <timeless> ... i'm also happy to see the proposal in super sketchy form
10:32:57 <tobie> q+
10:33:05 <timeless> ... i've heard of the proposall
10:33:07 <timeless> s/all/al/
10:33:20 <timeless> ... but without details to know if we'd be interested
10:33:27 <slightlyoff> q+
10:33:28 <timeless> darobin: i had 2 questions for sicking / anyone else
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10:33:36 <pbakaus> +q
10:33:36 <timeless> ... you mentioned potential backwards compat breaking changes
10:33:42 <timeless> ... i'm not sure it's a good/bad idea
10:33:48 <timeless> s/+q/q+/G
10:33:56 <timeless> ... i'm wondering how serious you are about that
10:33:59 <timeless> sicking: we don't have a proposal
10:34:06 <timeless> ... we haven't figured out a cohesive idea
10:34:20 <adrianba> here are some of the ideas -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Sep/0060.html
10:34:20 <timeless> ... the most tangible thing i can say is
10:34:31 <timeless> ... we want to get rid of this whole master entry idea
10:34:38 <timeless> ... add more JS API to it
10:34:39 <mjs> q+ to talk about compatibility
10:34:45 <timeless> ... so you can add/remove to-from the AppCache
10:34:53 <timeless> ... and create an appcache for an origin
10:35:07 <timeless> ... re:back-compat because we don't have anything more tangible, it can go either way
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10:35:19 <timeless> ... i think we can do most things w/o breaking
10:35:29 <timeless> ... but if getting rid of master entries breaks it, then...
10:35:32 <timeless> darobin: re:venue
10:35:36 <ArtB> s/Date: 30 November 2012/Date: 30 October 2012/
10:35:41 <timeless> ... i can understand why you'd be reluctant to work w/ html
10:35:42 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
10:35:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
10:35:48 <timeless> ... we're trying to make this WG a friendly venue
10:35:54 <timeless> ... the way it's broken now is shameful
10:36:08 <timeless> ... if whomever @mozilla would like to sit down with me,
10:36:15 <tobie> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache-london, https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache
10:36:17 <timeless> ... i'm happy to share it with the group
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10:36:29 <timeless> tobie: there's output from both meetings which i shared
10:37:11 <darobin> q?
10:37:15 <timeless> slightlyoff: we're interested in all of this
10:37:16 <darobin> ack me
10:37:18 <timeless> ... we have similar thinking
10:37:18 <darobin> ack tobie
10:37:21 <darobin> ack slightlyoff
10:37:25 <timeless> ... about optionality of master
10:37:26 <adrianba> q+
10:37:33 <timeless> ... we want to make camping of a domain more controllable
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10:37:44 <timeless> pbakaus: we have such a mess right now
10:37:52 <ArtB> Present+ Paul_Bakaus
10:37:55 <timeless> ... i think it's important to have a workshop w/  industry leaders
10:37:56 <sicking> q+
10:38:01 <timeless> ... i count us as one of them, we really want this
10:38:02 <timeless> ack pbakaus
10:38:04 <tobie> ack pbakaus
10:38:07 <timeless> ack mjs
10:38:07 <Zakim> mjs, you wanted to talk about compatibility
10:38:11 <chaals> q+
10:38:13 <timeless> mjs: i'd like to make a plea for compat
10:38:22 <timeless> ... it doesn't have to be fully back-compat w/ syntax and features
10:38:30 <timeless> ... maybe there's versioning
10:38:36 <timeless> ... we do have content that uses the current format
10:38:41 <timeless> ... it's more common on mobile
10:38:45 <ArtB> q+
10:38:48 <timeless> ... mobile apps seem to tend to try half backed tech
10:38:56 <timeless> ... i see the great importance of providing a better model
10:39:10 <timeless> ... it's clear from web-dev feedback that current app cache doesn't meet their needs and isn't a good design
10:39:23 <timeless> ... i'm interested in seeing ideas which improve it
10:39:26 <timeless> ... even breaking the model
10:39:29 <timeless> ack adrianba
10:39:32 <timeless> adrianba: agree w/ mjs
10:39:37 <timeless> ... and about compat
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10:39:47 <timeless> ... it's inevitable that we'll have to make breaking changes
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10:39:57 <timeless> ... we're keen on making sure that existing content keeps workinnng
10:40:05 <timeless> s/nnng/ng/
10:40:09 <timeless> ... ms is interested in working on this as well
10:40:21 <timeless> ... i pasted the link ms sent to html-wg a little while ago
10:40:33 <timeless> ... in IE10, we supported an additional mechanism that extends the manifest
10:40:39 <timeless> ... we provided it in the html5 bug database
10:40:45 <timeless> ... which allows you to change the way the manifest works
10:40:54 <timeless> ... this was essential to making Exchange offline mail work
10:40:55 <timeless> ack sicking
10:41:08 <timeless> sicking: not breaking existing content seems like a requirement
10:41:38 <timeless> ... arranging a workshop or something
10:41:49 <timeless> ... i feel like we should get to the point of having concrete proposals to discuss
10:42:04 <timeless> ... they always reached a halt when it comes to coming up w/ proposals for fixing it
10:42:12 <timeless> ... it takes too much time to come up w/ proposals
10:42:15 <timeless> ack chaals
10:42:25 <timeless> chaals: 12 months ago, there was a workshop on exactly this topic
10:42:32 <timeless> ... they concluded exactly what we just said
10:42:44 <timeless> timeless: [Scribe: why did i have to minute this whole thing if that workshop did this already?]
10:42:52 <timeless> chaals: there's position papers...
10:43:01 <timeless> ... i keep on hearing this, yeah we want to do these things
10:43:16 <timeless> ... it seems we're really in a position where writing a proposal is less work than spending two days in a workshop
10:43:28 <timeless> ... we could make the workshop unpleasant to encourage writing a proposal
10:43:33 <timeless> ... perhaps the venue question is part of the issue
10:43:39 <timeless> ... talking about it here, it's in scope for this WG
10:43:49 <timeless> ... we really do have on our charter the ability to do this
10:43:53 <timeless> ... you can bring your proposal here
10:43:57 <timeless> ... i'd like to do something
10:44:02 <timeless> ... AppCache is one part of this
10:44:06 <timeless> ... metadata stuff around an app
10:44:10 <timeless> ... widget configuration/packaging
10:44:14 <timeless> ... or mozilla's proposal
10:44:20 <timeless> ... which was just sat on for a few months
10:44:29 <timeless> ... a JSON based more or less equivalent functionality
10:44:35 <timeless> ... is in this WG as a listed item
10:44:40 <sicking> q+
10:44:43 <timeless> ... i'd like to understand if it's worth working on this stuff
10:44:57 <timeless> ... as a vendor, yandex has stuff which does apps based on a JSON package
10:45:12 <timeless> ... as our app is built from Chromium, it uses the same JSON as Chrome
10:45:16 <timeless> ... which is similar to Mozilla
10:45:25 <timeless> ... there's the dark corner of widget spec backers
10:45:30 <timeless> ... mutterings is
10:45:37 <timeless> ... given there's roundtripping between JSON and XML
10:45:47 <timeless> ... unifying that isn't really difficult
10:45:56 <timeless> ... wondering if people from those corners are interested in that as a workitem
10:46:01 <timeless> ... i don't think it's scope creep
10:46:13 <timeless> ... it's a fairly straightforward is a simple conversion of values
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10:46:20 <timeless> ... just as mozilla-chrome is straightforward
10:46:28 <timeless> ... Q: what are the workitems we should take up
10:47:14 <timeless> ... do we think doing it here is the right place
10:47:16 <timeless> ack ArtB
10:47:17 <chaals> ack me
10:47:23 <bryan> yes, it should be done, and here
10:47:24 <timeless> ArtB: art barstow, nokia
10:47:25 <timeless> ... about venue
10:47:37 <timeless> ... i'm mostly indifferent about here, HTMLWG or a CG
10:47:45 <timeless> ... (which was already created)
10:48:00 <timeless> ... but in considering venue, we need producers/consumers of appcache to be comfortable to come in and give feedback
10:48:06 <timeless> ... i think a CG may be more comfortable for them
10:48:20 <timeless> ... hashing out multiple drafts there may be easier before a WG
10:48:20 <timeless> q?
10:48:22 <chaals> q+ to say yandex would prefer this in the WG
10:48:36 <timeless> paulc: interested in knowing if anyone is in this WG
10:48:41 <timeless> ... that isn't in HTML WG
10:48:46 <timeless> ... wants to do this work here
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10:48:52 <timeless> ... HTML WG is about to be rechartered
10:49:07 <timeless> ... we'd like this to be clarified before we're rechartered
10:49:12 <timeless> ... if you don't clarify today
10:49:18 <timeless> ... before we meet Thu/Fri
10:49:21 <timeless> ... an AC question
10:49:31 <timeless> ... if we proposed Yes/No for doing AppCache in our charter
10:49:39 <timeless> ... will there be objections from Member companies in this room
10:49:45 <timeless> s/room/room-group/
10:49:50 <timeless> ... that aren't in our group?
10:49:56 <timeless> sicking: i can't speak officially for mozilla
10:50:03 <timeless> ... i'm not sure we'd object for it to be in charter
10:50:09 <timeless> ... i'd personally prefer WebApps WG or a CG
10:50:12 <timeless> ... i feel so far
10:50:24 <timeless> ... we've had an easier time talking about these things on webapps ML
10:50:37 <timeless> ... i feel like this isn't super tied into HTML as a Markup Language
10:50:43 <timeless> ... scope wise, it makes as much sense here as HTML
10:50:51 <timeless> ... i don't think we'd object to it being in HTML WG
10:51:03 <timeless> chaals: Yandex, first preference is doing it in Web Apps WG
10:51:12 <timeless> ... second preference is the Native WebApps  CG
10:51:16 <timeless> ... which is dormant
10:51:18 <adrianba> q+
10:51:20 <timeless> ... third preference is HTML
10:51:29 <timeless> ... if it doesn't work out like that, we're not going to object
10:51:40 <timeless> ... we have a strong preference, but won't spend our life arguing about it
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10:51:45 <timeless> adrianba: Adrian, Microsoft
10:51:53 <timeless> ... i proposed to continue this discussion in the HTML WG
10:52:01 <timeless> ... because it's already in the spec
10:52:14 <timeless> ... MS has no objection for doing it here
10:52:19 <timeless> ... we had the data-cache discussion
10:52:22 <timeless> ... we prefer one WG or the other
10:52:27 <timeless> ... [i.e. not a CG]
10:52:40 <timeless> chaals: how many people feel we shouldn't do this work anywhere
10:52:45 <timeless> mjs: stop trolling the WG
10:52:57 <timeless> chaals: how many people couldn't care less where the work takes place
10:53:16 <timeless> chaals: how many people have a preference for where the work takes place?
10:53:30 <timeless> ... i'll pass the mic around, and ask you to state your preference
10:53:42 <timeless> pbakaus: Zynga, web apps because i believe most of the apis should be in js
10:54:02 <timeless> hsivonen: XXX, webapps, good track record of WG
10:54:18 <timeless> adrianba: MS, i gave my preference, but guess it'll be in WebApps
10:54:27 <timeless> darobin: HTML, because i think we'll fix that group, and it'll rock
10:54:30 <timeless> [ laughter ]
10:54:46 <timeless> SimonPieters: Opera, WebApps because it's a functional group and HTML currently isn't
10:54:59 <timeless> sicking: first preference is "Fix AppCache CG"
10:55:10 <timeless> ... second preference is WebApps WG
10:55:14 <timeless> s/first/Mozilla, first/
10:55:26 <timeless> smaug: WebApps, what hsivonen said
10:55:34 <timeless> rafaelw: Google, WebApps it makes sense here
10:55:46 <timeless> chaals: this is the side that doesn't care
10:55:49 <timeless> odinho_: Opera, WebApps
10:55:52 <bryan> webapps, because we see this as related to app packaging and synergistic with the webapps experience with widgets, and other APIs that webapps may consider (e.g. offline webapp support in general)
10:56:09 <timeless> bryan: AT&T, WebApps, we see this related to webapp packaging, synergistic w/ widgets
10:56:13 <timeless> ... and offline in general
10:56:19 <timeless> chaals: ignoring darobin (good idea)
10:56:25 <timeless> ... there's a strong preference here to do it here
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10:56:28 <timeless> ... for the people who care
10:56:38 <timeless> ... if we said, hey paulc, we think we'll do it here
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10:56:49 <timeless> ... tell HTML WG that WebApps wants to do it here, and themselves
10:56:53 <timeless> ... will we have a turf war?
10:57:07 <timeless> paulc: i don't know the answer, we'll find out on thursday
10:57:22 <timeless> chaals: message to HTML WG is "we want it here, if that's ok with you guys"
10:57:37 <timeless> paulc: chairs should take an action to send a message to the html wg
10:57:42 <npdoty> wasn't mjs's comment earlier that he didn't expect that to be a particular problem?
10:58:07 <timeless> paulc: the question applies to html wg too
10:58:23 <timeless> ... is there anyone in html and not in webapps who'd object to it not being in html
10:58:34 <timeless> ... i took the silence as "no one objected to it being in html"
10:58:47 <timeless> sicking: i'll object to do it in the html wg on the main ML
10:58:54 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow respond to HTMLWG's question re WebApps has a strong preference to work on AppCache in WebApps WG
10:58:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-674 - Respond to HTMLWG's question re WebApps has a strong preference to work on AppCache in WebApps WG [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-06].
10:58:55 <timeless> ... but wouldn't object to it being its own ML
10:59:17 <mjs> npdoty, I don't expect it to be a problem but paul is correct that there could be people who would have strong feelings about doing it in html wg that have not spoken up yet
10:59:25 <timeless> chaals: we'll  send an email to HTML we'd like to do it here
10:59:40 <timeless> chaals: what are issues other than lack of concrete proposals
10:59:44 <npdoty> mjs, understood, thanks for clarifying
10:59:51 <timeless> ... appcache
11:00:16 <timeless> ... without anyone speaking up, we don't care
11:00:33 <odinho_> q+
11:00:37 <timeless> pbakaus: for the record, we, Zynga, think it's worth doing
11:00:45 <timeless> chaals: we could entertain the question
11:00:49 <adrianba> q-
11:00:52 <timeless> ... within JSON based metadata
11:00:59 <bryan> AT&T thinks its worthwhile to evolve and converge the widget specs with whatever comes out of the appcache evolution
11:01:06 <timeless> ... we'd like to see JSON convergence
11:01:27 <timeless> s/we'd/we, Yandex, would/
11:01:35 <timeless> sicking: when we submitted, we didn't hear any response
11:01:40 <timeless> ... so i'm surprised to hear
11:01:47 <timeless> ... and happy to hear, if that's no longer the case
11:01:52 <bryan> the lack of response may be simply a bandwidth issue
11:01:54 <timeless> ... we were planning on submitting it to sysapps
11:01:56 <timeless> ack sicking
11:02:00 <timeless> ... along with a runtime
11:02:08 <timeless> ... i think runtime+packaging go together
11:02:18 <timeless> ... they're co-dependent
11:02:26 <timeless> ... i'm wondering if group is working on packaging format + runtime
11:02:37 <timeless> ... feedback from google people on mozilla's spec
11:02:45 <timeless> ... was we don't understand the security implications
11:03:04 <timeless> ... it fits strangely in my mind with "but we're shipping an app store solution based on it"
11:03:10 <timeless> ... what is it with this
11:03:11 <odinho_> q-
11:03:17 <timeless> ... are you just not interested in convergence
11:03:25 <timeless> q- chaals
11:03:35 <sicking> q+
11:03:49 <timeless> slightlyoff: our format creates a separate origin
11:04:07 <timeless> ... to the extent that they're independent, we don't have the same problems we'd have as when we join it with the rest of the web
11:04:08 <timeless> ack sicking
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11:04:27 <timeless> sicking: google's answer was "it doesn't make sense to define a packaging format before you have a runtime"
11:04:36 <timeless> ... the packaging format describes what you put into the runtime
11:04:42 <timeless> ... my question is "should we do that work here"
11:04:47 <timeless> ... otherwise, it's in the sysapps charter
11:04:54 <timeless> ... i'm fine with it in either
11:05:08 <timeless> ... but discussions will happy in sysapps regardless
11:05:24 <timeless> chaals: i here myself and sicking saying we'd like convergence on JSON
11:05:41 <ArtB> here is a related email from Adam Barth http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2012AprJun/1017.html re Manifest and SysApps WG
11:05:44 <timeless> ... pbakaus saying they'd like to see convergence for XML w/ JSON (for packaging)
11:05:52 <timeless> ... onus would be on us to produce a convincing proposal
11:06:02 <timeless> darobin: or just do the work
11:06:03 <timeless> chaals: right
11:06:10 <timeless> ... so we might end up in sysapps w/ manifest
11:06:16 <timeless> ... which brings us back to appcache
11:06:33 <timeless> timeless: i will protest if i'm minuting this discussion next year
11:06:54 <timeless> chaals: appcache
11:07:02 <timeless> ... we note the lack of concrete proposals
11:07:16 <timeless> pbakaus: an implementation detail
11:07:26 <timeless> ... i'd like to make sure it works w/ file system apis we discussed yesterday
11:07:35 <timeless> ... our main goal is to limit the number of requests we make
11:07:39 <timeless> ... it needs to be highly dynamic
11:07:48 <timeless> [ silence ]
11:07:53 <timeless> q?
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11:08:18 <timeless> shepazu: is the queue empty because people don't think app cache is needed
11:08:27 <timeless> sicking: problem is we don't have any proposals to discuss
11:08:35 <timeless> odinho_: what sicking said [+1]
11:08:40 <timeless> chaals: my impression too
11:08:53 <slightlyoff> what sicking said
11:08:54 <bryan> we havent seen into the dark corners yet, once there are proposals it will be good to consider and discuss them.
11:09:05 <slightlyoff> (I've been working on something for months and it's nearly out, but not there yet)
11:09:22 <timeless> pbakaus: maybe we can get a wishlist about what we want this to cover
11:09:34 <odinho_> bryan: The stuff on the mozilla etherpad exist.
11:09:34 <odinho_> [2] https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache
11:09:34 <odinho_> [3] http://www.w3.org/2011/web-apps-ws/
11:09:40 <timeless> chaals: we could, i've sat through two of those already
11:09:54 <timeless> ... any proposal that would be accepted would have to point to a wishlist/requirements reference
11:10:02 <odinho_> -> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache-london Appcache London
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11:10:14 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
11:10:31 <odinho_> -> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache AppCache second meeting
11:10:34 <ArtB> Josh: we need some requirements work first
11:10:42 <ArtB> … before we start on the spec
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11:10:55 <timeless> chaals: +1 from a WG member
11:10:57 <odinho_> s,[2] https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache,,
11:11:04 <odinho_> s,[3] http://www.w3.org/2011/web-apps-ws/,,
11:11:07 <timeless> s/work first/work - published - first/
11:11:08 <ArtB> ScribeNick: timeless
11:11:50 <odinho_> s|s,[3] http://www.w3.org/2011/web-apps-ws/||
11:11:57 <odinho_> s|s,[2] https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache,,||
11:12:02 <timeless> chaals: add an XHR update after lunch
11:12:06 <timeless> ... i won't be here after lunch
11:12:35 <timeless> ArtB: displaying tentative agenda this afternoon
11:12:40 <timeless> ... come back @1:30pm
11:12:47 <timeless> ... shepazu will talk about web platform docs
11:13:03 <timeless> ... i was hoping Simon Stuart would talk about WebDriver
11:13:09 <odinho_> s|[3] http://www.w3.org/2011/web-apps-ws/||
11:13:20 <timeless> ... jgraham to talk about testing
11:13:33 <timeless> s/Stuart/Stewart/
11:13:41 <odinho_> s|[3] http://www.w3.org/2011/web-apps-ws/||
11:13:52 <timeless> jgraham: i guess, what we do depends on what people are interested in
11:13:57 <timeless> ... good time to gauge that
11:14:05 <timeless> ... how many are interested in hearing about testing at all?
11:14:12 <timeless> [ nearly half ]
11:14:23 <timeless> shepazu: who isn't interested in testing?
11:15:10 <timeless> chaals: if you don't want to talk about testing, you can skip most of the afternoon
11:15:19 <timeless> jgraham: sounds like TestTheWebForward w/ liam
11:15:24 <timeless> ... introduction on how to write tests
11:15:28 <timeless> ... get people writing tests
11:15:40 <odinho_> s|w/ liam|Lyon|
11:15:42 <timeless> ... maybe an opportunity to have a discussion amongst the people who have to run the test
11:15:48 <timeless> ArtB: thanks jgraham
11:16:09 <odinho_> s|[2] https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache||
11:16:21 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:16:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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11:51:46 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:51:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
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12:40:59 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
12:41:24 <ArtB> topic: Web Platform Docs
12:41:29 <ArtB> Doug's presentation: http://www.w3.org/Talks/2012/10-lea-webplatform/wpd-talk/#intro
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12:52:38 <ArtB> http://www.webplatform.org/
12:52:52 <ArtB> Topic: Testing (James Graham)
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12:54:39 <ArtB> ScribeNick: lachy
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12:56:33 <Lachy> Topic: Testing the Web Backwards, Lyon
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13:00:13 <Lachy> jgraham: I will talk for up to 30 mintues. Then we will get people writing tests.
13:00:27 <Lachy> jgraham: In the past 12 to 18 months, the testing situation at the W3C has improved a lot.
13:00:44 <Lachy> … When CSS 2.1 was going to REC, there was a big panic about there being no tests.
13:00:58 <Lachy> … Now we are starting to have some agreement about what format to write tests in.
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13:01:05 <Lachy> … The same format for WebApps, HTML, etc.
13:01:11 <a12u> a12u has joined #webapps
13:01:21 <Lachy> … The tests are all in mercurial repo.
13:01:30 <Lachy> … http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/
13:01:48 <Lachy> … [Showing the repo website on the screen]
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13:02:24 <Lachy> … We have a folder for each spec, containing all of its tests.
13:02:41 <Lachy> … For each, there is an "approved" directory and "submitted" directory.
13:02:42 <ArtB> http://w3c-test.org/webapps/
13:03:08 <Lachy> … This is a bit annoying right now, so we are going to try and develop a system much like they have in CSS, where the spec can be annotated with relevants tests.
13:03:17 <ArtB> Example of approved tests: http://w3c-test.org/webapps/WebSockets/tests/
13:03:29 <ArtB> … http://w3c-test.org/webapps/WebSockets/tests/approved/
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13:04:11 <Lachy> jgraham: the situation now is that we are accepting tests in 3 formats, depending on what you're trying to test.
13:04:25 <Lachy> … For this group, we want to test DOM APIs, so we can write tests using JavaScript.
13:04:34 <Lachy> … testharness.js framework for writing tests.
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13:04:46 <Lachy> … Similar in idea to others like QUnit, etc.
13:05:09 <ArtB> … https://github.com/jgraham/testharness.js
13:05:15 <Lachy> … For cases where rendering is important, we use reference tests. You two files. One uses the thing being tested. One creates the same rendering using different techniques.
13:05:42 <Lachy> … If the two look the same, then you assume it works. If they're different, the test fails, something is broken.
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13:06:01 <Lachy> … We also have self-describing tests.
13:06:14 <Lachy> … This is basically a list of steps that describe what to do and what the result should be.
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13:06:41 <ArtB> … testharness tutorial by Robin Berjon: http://darobin.github.com/test-harness-tutorial/docs/using-testharness.html
13:06:48 <Lachy> … I will now go through the features of testharness.js.  Then in the next session, people can try writing some tests.
13:07:25 <Lachy> darobin, I suggest we put that documentation on w3c-test.org
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13:09:08 <Lachy> jgraham: [Slides on screen, from testing the web forward event in paris]
13:09:23 <Lachy> … For testing JS, no manual interaction
13:09:27 <Lachy> … Two types of tests.
13:09:33 <Lachy> … 1. Synchronous tests.
13:09:49 <Lachy> … [Showing boilerplate test file on screen]
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13:11:06 <Lachy> … The function called test takes another function as a parameter. The inner function runs the actual test, with various assertions. e.g. assert_true(…)
13:12:22 <Lachy> … [Showed example assertion from a spec]
13:12:45 <Lachy> … [Now showing an example testing function that tests this assertion]
13:13:01 <Lachy> … 2. Async tests.
13:13:28 <Lachy> … Some tests depend on waiting for events, network responses or other non-synchronous features.
13:14:16 <Lachy> … Test authors should write using the normal event handlers for the feature being tested and include test functions within those event handlers.
13:14:52 <Lachy> … [Example on screen showing an asynchronous test function called by setTimeout]
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13:15:43 <Lachy> … t.step() takes a function, which runs the tests.
13:16:11 <Lachy> … t.step_func() is similar, but generates a testing function, which may be used directly as an event or timeout handler.
13:16:27 <Lachy> … [Showing an example assertion from the local storage spec]
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13:17:42 <Lachy> … [Example tests the onstorage event. Uses t.step_func() to generate an event handler for onstorage. Includes assertions to verify the result.]
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13:17:56 <Lachy> … This includes multiple assertions in the single tests. But if one fails, the whole test fails.
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13:18:37 <darobin> q?
13:19:29 <Lachy> … We can set more properties on the test that are useful as metadata.
13:19:50 <Lachy> … The CSS WG used <link rel="help"> to link to the part of the spec being tested.
13:20:03 <Lachy> … What we can use instead is a help property to point at the part of the spec being tested.
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13:20:34 <Lachy> … This helps identify which parts of the spec have and have not been tested.
13:20:57 <Lachy> … PLH has been working on adding this for HTML.
13:21:15 <Lachy> … I propose that we structure the directories based on the section of the spec.
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13:22:31 <Lachy> Lachy: I don't like the idea of using directory structure as a kind of metadata.
13:22:49 <Lachy> jgraham: There are pros and cons. THis is an issue that can be discussed tomorrow or some other time.
13:23:26 <Lachy> The step_func() method lets authors specify a timeout for an individual test.
13:23:41 <Lachy> s/The step_func()/... The step func()/
13:24:05 <Lachy> … The setup() method allows setting a global timeout for the entire testsuite.
13:24:31 <Lachy> s/step func()/async_test()/
13:24:58 <Lachy> … There are a range of asserts. e.g. assert_true, assert_false, etc. (Others shown on screen)
13:25:21 <Lachy> … assert_throws knows how to capture an exception and check that it's the right one.
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13:26:04 <Lachy> … A notification API allows you to findout when certain things occur during the test, using callbacks.
13:26:12 <Lachy> … There is lots of documentation.
13:26:25 <Lachy> … darobin has written a tutorial as well.
13:26:39 <Lachy> at 16:00, we will try writing some test.
13:26:58 <darobin> http://darobin.github.com/test-harness-tutorial/docs/using-testharness.html -> Test Harness Tutorial
13:27:12 <SimonPieters> http://w3c-test.org/resources/testharness.js
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13:27:57 <Lachy> topic: XMLHttpRequest
13:28:11 <darobin> Julian Aubourg
13:28:37 <Lachy> julian: We have a test coverage report for XHR
13:29:16 <Lachy> … There is a CSS and Javascript file that can generate this report within the specs.
13:29:41 <Lachy> jgraham: There will be more sessions on testing tomorrow.
13:30:02 <Lachy> topic: Web Driver
13:30:46 <odinho_> Simon Stewart
13:30:52 <Lachy> Simon: My name is Simon Stewart
13:31:31 <Lachy> … Over here we have Andreas from Opera, David who works on Firefox and Mozilla web driver, XXX who works on Chrome's
13:31:35 <Lachy> … Demo.
13:31:54 <Lachy> … We have support for tests written in python, java c#, etc. Basically any language.
13:32:06 <Lachy> … Facebook have contributed PHP bindings.
13:32:11 <Lachy> … There are Perl bindings as well.
13:32:24 <Lachy> … Demo, on screen.
13:32:48 <Lachy> … Obtaining a driver instance using: d = webdriver.Firefox()
13:32:58 <Lachy> … [More code on screen]
13:33:24 <Lachy> … We have a version of Firefox
13:33:39 <Lachy> … Using d.get() method to navigate to URL
13:34:07 <Lachy> … d.find_element() method to find elements in a page by an attribute value.
13:34:27 <Lachy> … e.send_keys() simulates keyboard input
13:34:48 <Lachy> … Demo of WebDriver playing the piano.
13:35:30 <Lachy> … Javascript based piano. WebDriver is sending click events to the piano keys on the page.
13:35:43 <Lachy> … Demo was using Chrome.
13:35:48 <Lachy> … We also support Opera
13:36:02 <Lachy> … Using web driver to send keyboard inputs
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13:36:34 <Lachy> … Also querying using javascript and JSON to find out the position of items on the screen, in order to play a game.
13:36:52 <Lachy> … What are the kinds of thing that people are doing with these things?
13:37:05 <Lachy> … QA engineers doing end-to-end testing of their systems.
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13:37:27 <Lachy> … With high fidelity user input, we can do things like drag and drop.
13:37:49 <Lachy> … On Chrome and Opera, those browsers have been modified to allow web driver to inject events directly
13:38:11 <Lachy> … For IE and Firefox, we get hold of the hwnd and pump WM messages into it.
13:38:29 <Lachy> … The second audience are browser vendors.
13:38:43 <Lachy> … They want to be able to test their browser before inflicting it upon the world.
13:39:22 <Lachy> … The third audience is spec authors wanting to write conformance tests for things that can't be expressed solely in javascript.
13:39:35 <Lachy> … Interacting with modal dialogs, for example, or other things that require user interaction.
13:39:49 <darobin> q+ to ask about device interaction
13:39:50 <Lachy> … Web Driver can handle alert(), prompt(), etc.
13:40:06 <Lachy> ack darobin
13:40:06 <Zakim> darobin, you wanted to ask about device interaction
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13:40:55 <Lachy> darobin: One of the problems we had trouble automating is platform device functions. No way to detect and verify physical actions, like phone vibrations.
13:41:30 <Lachy> simon: It's fairly easy to extend.
13:42:27 <Lachy> … We mandate that implementations should communicate in a common way, to reduce fragmentation of implementations.
13:42:38 <Lachy> … That's a high level overview. Any questions?
13:43:18 <Lachy> SimonPieters: For the W3C tests, jgraham said we have 3 formats. Can we replace manual tests with WebDriver tests?
13:43:39 <Lachy> simon: The manual tests which are a sequence of user interaction and checking the result are good candidates for web driver.
13:43:56 <Lachy> … There may be edge cases where we don't have that functionality.
13:44:08 <Lachy> … We have an advanced interaction API.
13:44:23 <Lachy> … We have a basic touch implementation.
13:47:18 <Lachy> Lachy: Is there any ability to interact with the browser chrome.
13:47:32 <Lachy> simon: Not yet. Possible to extend into this area in the future.
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13:48:32 <Lachy> simon: web driver is an attempt to avoid getting into a place where web apps cannot be automatically tested.
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13:49:06 <Lachy> ArtB: How much time before the web driver spec is at feature freeze?
13:49:17 <Lachy> simon: We're kind of doing this backwards. The implementations are fairly solid.
13:49:40 <Lachy> … Lots of major companies. Facebook, Mozilla, BBC, etc. are happy to put a lot of weight behind this.
13:49:49 <Lachy> … The actual specification is lagging behind.
13:50:06 <Lachy> … If you were able to look at the open source tree, you would be able to make a compatible implementation today.
13:50:26 <Lachy> … We are working on porting our tests to a W3C test suite alongside the specification.
13:50:37 <Lachy> ArtB: If you have comments, submit them sooner rather than later.
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13:51:18 <Lachy> John: (Microsoft, Principle testee for IE). I was in the meetings for web driver spec. We are looking at and and trying to evaluate it. Cannot say whether we weil support it.
13:51:30 <Lachy> simon: Mozilla will be using WebDriver extensively
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13:51:50 <adrianba> s/testee/test lead/
13:52:23 <Lachy> odinho_: Is it possible to take control over the browser and interact with it yourself while web driver script is running.
13:52:28 <JohnJansen> s/John/JohnJansen
13:52:33 <adrianba> s/we weil/we will/
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13:52:51 <Lachy> simon: It's a bad idea. Mozilla runs it in a non-interactive way.
13:52:56 <adrianba> s/in the meetings/in the meetings as an observer/
13:53:10 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:53:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html chaals
13:53:41 <Lachy> … For people who run websites, it is possible to detect if web driver is being used by the client.
13:54:03 <Lachy> … I would be interested in providing a way to identify when a browser is under web driver control.
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13:55:36 <Lachy> … I will hang around if people want to ask me questions later.
13:55:47 <Lachy> … Thank you
13:56:05 <Lachy> ArtB: Break.
13:56:23 <Lachy> … jgraham will continue with testing at 16:00. Web Intents will start at 16:45
13:57:24 <Lachy> … testing is at 15:30 instead
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14:08:30 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:08:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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14:19:11 <tomoyuki> Present+ Tomoyuki_Shimizu
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14:41:20 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
14:41:30 <ArtB> Topic: Testing Tutorial by James and Simon
14:41:57 <ArtB> JG: if you have any questions about writing tests, Simon and I would be glad to help
14:42:02 <ArtB> … just let us know
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14:59:43 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:59:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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15:11:21 <hsivonen>  /join #tpac
15:11:29 <hsivonen> doh
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15:25:30 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:25:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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15:26:21 <ArtB> zakim, dial Rhone_3
15:26:21 <Zakim> sorry, ArtB, I don't know what conference this is
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15:28:26 <ArtB> zakim, this is IA_WebApps
15:28:26 <Zakim> ArtB, I see IA_WebApps()4:00AM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be IA_WebApps".
15:28:38 <ArtB> zakim, this will be IA_WebApps
15:28:38 <Zakim> ok, ArtB; I see IA_WebApps()4:00AM scheduled to start 448 minutes ago
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15:28:51 <ArtB> zakim, dial Rhone_3
15:28:51 <Zakim> ok, ArtB; the call is being made
15:28:51 <Zakim> IA_WebApps()4:00AM has now started
15:28:53 <Zakim> +Rhone_3
15:29:17 <Zakim> -Rhone_3
15:29:18 <Zakim> IA_WebApps()4:00AM has ended
15:29:18 <Zakim> Attendees were Rhone_3
15:29:46 <ArtB> zakim, dial Rhone_3
15:29:46 <Zakim> ok, ArtB; the call is being made
15:29:47 <Zakim> IA_WebApps()4:00AM has now started
15:29:48 <Zakim> +Rhone_3
15:30:39 <ArtB> zakim, who is here?
15:30:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_3
15:30:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see sakkuru, takuya, Dewa, ArtB, kensaku, shepazu, rotsuya, sicking, Wonsuk, krisk, tantek, kotakagi, adrianba, rubylin, mjs, Arno, KenjiBX, spoussa, mishida, morrita,
15:30:41 <Zakim> ... alexandremorgaut, npdoty, darobin, chaals, a12u, yamaday, jcverdie
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15:33:51 <jaubourg> \o/
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15:36:52 <sgodard> Great, It's very cool with tests inside document, good job
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15:45:15 <ArtB> Topic: Web Intents
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15:45:59 <ArtB> zakim, who is here?
15:45:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_3
15:46:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see Cathy, shige, spoussa, Yoshihiro, kinji_matsumura, mjs, jsoh, shh, nsakai, edoyle, massimo, Hidetoshi, sato, leehomlin, sakkuru, takuya, Dewa, ArtB, kensaku, shepazu,
15:46:00 <Zakim> ... rotsuya, sicking, Wonsuk, krisk, tantek, kotakagi, adrianba
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15:47:09 <Lachy> Greg: I'm going to talk about web intents and our prototype implementation
15:47:21 <Lachy> … Web Intents is a draft in collaboration with device APIs.
15:47:55 <Lachy> … It's kind of like an RPC framework, when one app can start an activity that is satisfied by another web app.
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15:48:17 <Lachy> … You can see some extensions and apps I have installed in Chrome. (on screen)
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15:48:17 <tantek> is anyone there from Mozilla to bring up web activities?
15:48:59 <Lachy> … The page has a way to pick an image from anotehr web app. If i click on this button, it takes me to another app called Quicksnapr.
15:49:23 <Lachy> … Using web cam APIs to take a picture directly on the web page.
15:49:46 <Lachy> … [taken several pictures]
15:50:03 <Lachy> … Can pick one and send it back to the Imagemator app (the first one he started at)
15:50:34 <Lachy> … Using file system API to save the picture locally.
15:51:13 <Lachy> … I can now load up another local Chrome app and see the image on the local file system.
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15:51:44 <Lachy> … The apps don't necessarily know about each other. The intents allow them to be loosely hooked up in an adhoc way.
15:51:58 <tantek> mounir - glad to hear it. carry-on then. thanks.
15:52:02 <Lachy> … The nice thing is that the first web app that launches the intent doesn't have to know about the next one.
15:52:17 <Lachy> … That's the loosely couple benefit that comes from this system.
15:52:36 <Lachy> … It does cause some problems though.
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15:53:03 <Lachy> … The current status: We've done a tonne of work on the mechanics of the spec, resolving ambiguities, standard spec work, etc. Also developed an interchange format.
15:53:19 <Lachy> … e.g. the details of how an image gets transferred from point A to B
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15:54:08 <Lachy> … More to come. e.g. When we first proposed this API, we were thinking in terms, than when picking an image, you would always get specific user interaction approaches.
15:54:13 <tantek> jgraham - re: <intent> - http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/22399681762
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15:54:50 <Lachy> … That was a mistake. We want to move to an event model.
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15:55:40 <Lachy> … The problems are mostly around the UI and figuring out the responsibilities of the UA and web app.
15:56:09 <Lachy> … The first one is that when you have a few tabs cooperating. I have one tab that started the intent, another that satisfied the intent.
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15:56:16 <hober> tantek jgraham: also http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/29085196102
15:56:19 <Lachy> … How should this link be conveyed to the user.
15:56:52 <Lachy> … How to manage the fact that there are two tabs involved in the same activity.
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15:57:44 <Lachy> … We thought the web app picker would be a benefit becuase they can select a new app that could satisfy the intent.
15:57:54 <Lachy> … The use of this picker is a lot higher than we would like.
15:58:04 <Lachy> … It ends up being a lot of steps.
15:58:46 <Lachy> … User has to check permissions when setting up a new app. Incorporating app discovery and installation into the picker doesn't work, from a user interaction perspective.
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15:59:27 <Lachy> … If we imagine a defaulting model, where there is a system default for known intents.
15:59:41 <Lachy> … So users wouldn't be presented with the picker so often. They would just use their default.
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16:00:12 <Lachy> … It's possible that these issues may need API tweaks to solve them.
16:00:23 <Lachy> In Chrome 24, the feature is behind an experimental flag.
16:00:23 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html adrianba
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16:01:05 <Lachy> … that's basically the demo and getting everyone up to speed. Any questions or discussion?
16:01:24 <Lachy> q?
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16:02:37 <Lachy> Greg. It has changed. For a while we thought we needed extra metadata in the pay load.
16:02:46 <Lachy> … Currently the API is very task oriented.
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16:03:16 <Lachy> … If the model is more a persistent system or app to app connection, that may not be the best API to use.
16:03:33 <Lachy> q?
16:04:24 <Lachy> XXX: You spoke a lot about interacting with 2 tabs. Could you explain?
16:04:38 <odinho_> s/XXX/mounir/
16:05:10 <Lachy> Greg: There's 1 tab that initiates the intent, one that satisfies it. What should happen if the user closes the second tab. How should that be handled by the browser or the web app? These issues are not clear.
16:06:33 <Lachy> … I characterise it as more of a UI problem that browser vendors need to pay attention to.
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16:07:27 <Lachy> sicking: I haven't been following web intents, but I was under the impression that there was some mechanism to set up a communication link between two tabs. Is that there?
16:08:02 <Lachy> Greg: The way the experiement works in Chrome is that there's always a UI that the service presents.
16:08:18 <Lachy> … The tab is always opened either inline or in a new tab.
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16:09:10 <Lachy> XXX: Chromes specification indicates that there is a pause attribute.
16:09:18 <odinho_> s/pause/ports/
16:09:24 <odinho_> s/XXX/mounir/
16:09:24 <hsivonen> jgraham, consider <intent> objected to
16:09:24 <Lachy> s/pause/port/
16:09:40 <Lachy> Greg: It passes a structured clone.
16:10:18 <shan> s/experiement/experiment/
16:10:29 <Lachy> YYY: I wonder about the servicing page.
16:11:00 <Lachy> Greg: The draft spec calls for ways to register dynamically as a extension or app with a manifest
16:11:02 <Lachy> q?
16:11:04 <timeless> q?
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16:12:33 <Lachy> Greg: For Chrome 24, we were experiementing with an icon in the URL bar tha when clicked would should things like bookmark, share, etc. with some app that you have installed. That would use the intent system to link with apps.
16:12:49 <Lachy> s/tha/that/
16:13:54 <npdoty> q+ to follow up on the distinction between user-invoked and page-invoked
16:14:16 <Lachy> sicking: The impression I got around intents is that hte hard part is building a user experience that basically satisfied the people we want to implement the intents. The actual mechanics of shuffling data from one tab to another is on the hard bit.
16:14:31 <MagnusOlsson> s/YYY/MagnusOlsson/
16:14:32 <hsivonen> timeless, I object to adding new elements to <head> and I object to adding new void elements
16:14:41 <Lachy> Greg: It's like a two sided market. The hope is that there are lot of clients and services invoking and servicing intents. Getting that market is tough.
16:14:56 <Lachy> … Our initial plan is using features like that dropdown I was talking about earlier.
16:15:25 <Lachy> … The reason we don't have that in Chrome 24 is because of the UI problems we discoverd.
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16:15:47 <Lachy> … Having a bunch of eco systems set up around an API that was going to change wouldn't be the best plan. So we hid it behind a flag
16:15:49 <Lachy> q?
16:16:05 <Lachy> ack npdoty
16:16:05 <Zakim> npdoty, you wanted to follow up on the distinction between user-invoked and page-invoked
16:16:07 <sicking> q+
16:16:12 <MikeSmith> q?
16:16:46 <Lachy> npdoty: I mostly work on privacy in standards. To follow up, as I understand, the intents spec as it is now, the intents are done as service by a user clicking a button.
16:17:17 <Lachy> … But a user could also potentially share any URL from teh browser UI, even if the page doesn't explicitly support the intent.
16:17:42 <Arno> q+ to ask status on intents semantics
16:17:54 <Lachy> Greg: The spec deals with it in a tangental way. It says that the intent may not be invoke by the API given and allows for the browser to get in the middle on one end or the other of the system.
16:18:21 <Lachy> … The spec can't force the browser to do it, so it's allowed but not mandated in the spec.
16:19:25 <Lachy> … I think we have a good sense of the interchange format to say how to transfer images or URLs as a data packet.
16:20:09 <Lachy> sicking: We in Firefox had the need for something similar to this, but since web intents wasn't done, we did something else.
16:20:36 <Lachy> … We have web activities which is similar. It has the same capabilities. Very much tied into apps. The user brings up an app, rather than a new tab.
16:21:32 <Lachy> … one of the UI problems we had is that if you have multiple handlers for a given intent, you need to show some sort of UI so the user can choose.
16:21:40 <Lachy> … what text string to you put in the title of that UI.
16:22:21 <Lachy> … We put application names next to each option. I don't know if you can do that in your implementation, given that there is no trusted name for a website.
16:23:15 <Lachy> Greg: In Chrome, the picker has a string that is related to the action that was performed by the user. There's a custom string per action and a generic one if we don't know what the action is. Something like "which service should we use?"
16:23:21 <Lachy> Sicking: how do you describe the options?
16:23:47 <Lachy> Greg: We think that using the name of the app is the most clear. The service can provide a custom string for this.
16:24:29 <Lachy> … I think the reason that that ends up being useful than just the name of the application is that when you see the UI, you're picking an application.
16:25:01 <Lachy> sicking:  one problem is trust. It's possible to phish this.
16:25:20 <Lachy> … I could change my icon and title to Bank of America, and fool the user.
16:25:42 <Lachy> … It's part of the Chrome UI, so it feels more trustwothy, but in reality, it's part of the web content.
16:25:55 <Lachy> Greg: That's a problem with the picker that we had.
16:26:33 <Lachy> … That's one slice of the problem with using the picker that we discoverd. I agree there would be a phishing risk.
16:26:35 <timeless> q+ to comment on that
16:26:41 <Lachy> ack sicking
16:26:43 <timeless> q+ to comment security concerns
16:26:44 <Lachy> ack Arno
16:26:45 <Zakim> Arno, you wanted to ask status on intents semantics
16:27:21 <Lachy> Greg: The reason we were using a data URL is that there's a problem with web kit.
16:27:29 <Lachy> … It's bug we need to fix.
16:27:47 <npdoty> it seems like a concern that the picker also doesn't make it clear what kind of data is being passed along, in addition to it being uncertain whom you're passing the data to
16:28:08 <Lachy> q?
16:28:08 <timeless> ack me
16:28:09 <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to comment on that and to comment security concerns
16:28:12 <Lachy> ack timeless
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16:28:51 <Lachy> timeless: sicking asked about security concerns.All the browsers that ship have the ability to ask other services if a website is risky.
16:29:05 <Lachy> … Firefox has the concept of how often you've been to a page.
16:29:06 <Arno> The question was about wether or not there was a work on intent semantics, as for example on the edit intent when the intent "returned" the data could either be a datablob or a data : URL
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16:29:44 <Lachy> … Been to Facebook a lot. Have not been to a phishing site a lot. I expect that that would be taken into account by the Ui when trying to counter phishing attempts.
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16:30:37 <Lachy> Greg: Those are good points.
16:30:55 <Lachy> … Some of those things are valuable to solve the problem.
16:31:09 <Lachy> … We also only accept the API when it's a gesture
16:31:25 <Lachy> q?
16:31:35 <Lachy> ArtB: Are there other implementations?
16:32:07 <Lachy> Greg: I think that someof the problesm I talked about with tabs would likely show up with web activities applied to the same kind of use cases.
16:32:40 <Lachy> sicking: We've only done it for Firefox OS. Have not shipped yet.
16:32:59 <Lachy> … it's intended to solve exactly the same use cases. Picking, sharing, images, etc.
16:33:24 <Lachy> … We do use it internally for things like the camera app. We have a button to open your gallery using an intent.
16:33:30 <Lachy> … Other apps can hook into that.
16:33:46 <Lachy> … Likewise, when you have an input type=file, we fire a pick event that other apps can hook into.
16:33:50 <shan> s/problesm/problems/
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16:34:06 <Lachy> … The goal is definitely to solve the same problem between 3rd party apps
16:34:34 <Lachy> mounir: We had an issue in Firefox OS. When you open an app, and an app opens another. In that case, we had to know when ???
16:35:40 <Lachy> q?
16:36:02 <mounir> mounir: we had to know if the opener wanted to get a result or not
16:36:12 <Lachy> ArtB: Thank you very much Greg.
16:36:20 <Lachy> ArtB: meeting ajourned.
16:36:25 <mounir> mounir: in the case of a result was expected, we had to handle the case of the handler activity being left
16:36:28 <Lachy> RRSAgent: make minutes
16:36:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html Lachy
16:36:45 <mounir> mounir: to not be in the situation where we actually don't know if the result will be sent
16:37:06 <Lachy> RRSAgent: make minutes
16:37:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html Lachy
16:37:23 <mjs> mjs has joined #webapps
16:41:02 <smaug> smaug has joined #webapps
16:41:40 <ArtB> zakim, who is here?
16:41:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_3
16:41:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see smaug, mjs, a12u, Shinji, efullea, komoroske, noriya, takuya, shh, darobin, virginie_galindo, bjkim, jeff, dveditz, Claes, Cathy, spoussa, jsoh, nsakai, Hidetoshi,
16:41:41 <Zakim> ... sakkuru, Dewa, ArtB, shepazu, rotsuya, sicking, Wonsuk, krisk, tantek
16:41:58 <tantek> was it not adjourned?
16:41:58 <paul-huawei> paul-huawei has joined #webapps
16:42:05 <shh> shh has left #webapps
16:42:14 <timeless> trackbot, end meeting
16:42:14 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:42:14 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Rhone_3
16:42:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:42:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
16:42:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:42:23 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-actions.rdf :
16:42:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Chaals: Get the ZIP archive proposal on the table as a formal work item. [1]
16:42:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-irc#T08-21-39
16:42:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow respond to HTMLWG's question re WebApps has a strong preference to work on AppCache in WebApps WG [2]
16:42:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-irc#T10-58-54