IRC log of webtv on 2012-10-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:37:43 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webtv
07:37:43 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-irc
07:37:50 [leetv2]
leetv2 has joined #webtv
07:37:51 [matt]
Scribe: Matt
07:37:55 [matt]
Topic: Introduction
07:38:06 [kenji]
kenji has joined #webtv
07:38:19 [matt]
giuseppe: We're going to do a quick welcome, and then work on building an agenda until 9:30.
07:38:19 [giuseppe]
giuseppe has joined #webtv
07:38:23 [Yanagiuchi]
Yanagiuchi has joined #webtv
07:38:26 [kaz]
kaz has joined #webtv
07:38:29 [shoko]
shoko has joined #webtv
07:38:38 [kawakami]
kawakami has joined #webtv
07:38:45 [kaz]
scribe: Kaz
07:38:51 [kaz]
scribenick: kaz
07:38:56 [kaz]
topic: Introduction session
07:39:01 [matt]
giuseppe: From 9:30-10:30, we'll go through the list of topics, and allow proponents to discuss them and figure out who might be interested in a TF.
07:39:08 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:39:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html matt
07:39:15 [ot]
ot has joined #webtv
07:39:26 [matt]
scribe: Matt
07:39:30 [matt]
scribenick: Matt
07:39:53 [matt]
giuseppe: (reviews agenda thus far)
07:40:37 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: This is a peculiarity of the W3C -- each charter has an end date, you can extend continuing what you do, or have a new charter, or end.
07:41:07 [leetv]
leetv has joined #webtv
07:41:10 [matt]
Masahito: We have to reach consensus on rechartering.
07:41:10 [matt]
Masahito: No objection? None. Great.
07:42:02 [Juhani]
Juhani has joined #webtv
07:42:10 [hbang]
hbang has joined #webtv
07:42:17 [sburr]
sburr has joined #webtv
07:42:32 [Dong-Young_Lee]
Dong-Young_Lee has joined #webtv
07:42:44 [Kiyoshi]
Kiyoshi has joined #webtv
07:42:45 [csmithpeters]
csmithpeters has joined #webtv
07:42:47 [Dewa]
Dewa has joined #webtv
07:42:51 [Shigeo]
Shigeo has joined #webtv
07:42:51 [slejeune]
slejeune has joined #webtv
07:42:51 [SN]
SN has joined #webtv
07:42:56 [matt]
Topic: Web and TV IG Overview
07:43:01 [giles]
giles has joined #WEBTV
07:43:08 [sato]
sato has joined #webtv
07:43:25 [jens]
jens has joined #webtv
07:43:28 [fwatanabe]
fwatanabe has joined #webtv
07:43:55 [matt]
giuseppe: Created in December 2010 as an outcome of a workshop on Web and TV in Tokyo. Several use cases discussed, with an agreement to create an IG. It would identify requirements from the TV industry for standards, improve cooperation between TV industry and the Web community, and give a informal forum for brainstorming.
07:43:57 [SN]
SN has left #webtv
07:44:09 [tokamoto_]
tokamoto_ has joined #webtv
07:44:14 [yoshi]
yoshi has joined #webtv
07:44:32 [matt]
giuseppe: An IG is different than a WG. An IG doesn't create formal technical specifications. The goal is to focus on requirements/input for other WGs, or to create new WGs.
07:44:39 [sheau]
sheau has joined #webtv
07:44:39 [kinji-matsumura]
kinji-matsumura has joined #webtv
07:44:46 [matt]
giuseppe: We've mainly used the wiki and some teleconferences.
07:44:51 [kunio]
kunio has joined #webtv
07:45:06 [matt]
giuseppe: The mailing list is the usual mode of communication, if there is sufficient interest in a topic we may create a Task Force.
07:45:07 [phutchins]
phutchins has joined #webtv
07:45:39 [matt]
giuseppe: The focus has been on use cases and requirements for future standardization work. We've looked at gaps in the existing Web Platform -- what is it you cannot do with the existing Web Platform?
07:45:48 [jiro]
jiro has joined #webtv
07:46:00 [kaz]
kaz has left #webtv
07:46:07 [kaz]
kaz has joined #webtv
07:46:31 [bryan]
store and access a lot of content locally, for one... is not yet possible
07:46:34 [Veronica]
Veronica has joined #webtv
07:46:42 [matt]
giuseppe: We've had two task forces that have concluded their work. 1. The Home Network TF. That TF focused on gaps in discovery and control of devices and services in the local network. After 3-4 months the group created a Note of use cases and requirements.
07:47:00 [sungok_You]
sungok_You has joined #webtv
07:47:23 [Ethan]
Ethan has joined #webtv
07:47:31 [matt]
giuseppe: We thought the Device API's WG would cover our requirements. They've got a proposal for service discovery. Another was the Web Intents Addendum.
07:47:48 [bryan]
present+ Bryan_Sullivan
07:47:53 [tomoyuki]
tomoyuki has joined #webtv
07:48:04 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'who is here'
07:48:25 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #webtv
07:48:41 [matt]
giuseppe: The Media Pipeline TF goal was to discuss requirements on HTML5 video/audio/media interfaces. Also had weekly calls and emails. The output was requirements for adaptive bit-rate control n script, and content protection. This work went into the HTML 5 media TF.
07:48:43 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #webtv
07:49:52 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Both of the TF had their use cases and requirements adopted by the WGs. We filed bug reports, and got things changed: e.g. multi-stream data. We had a lot of new bugs put in and a lot were new issues for the HTML 5 folks.
07:50:08 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: We also had some work done on remote key support. That was added into the DOM3 Events Spec.
07:50:18 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: We had very good support from HTML5 and WebApps.
07:50:48 [matt]
giuseppe: We've had good success, getting in touch with other parts of W3C and getting them to understand our requirements.
07:51:09 [matt]
giuseppe: That's it for my overview.
07:51:44 [matt]
ph: I'm Philipp Hoshcka, I manage the domain that the Web and TV IG is a part of. I'd like to congratulate the IG on it's achievements and I look forward to your future successes. This is one of the most successful IG's we've had at W3C.
07:52:13 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: We did a good thing by focusing on requirements. We took a back seat on the actual implementation as long as our requirements were met.
07:52:22 [hitoshi]
hitoshi has joined #webtv
07:52:53 [Oliva_Akamai]
Oliva_Akamai has joined #webtv
07:52:55 [matt]
giuseppe: There's a reason why this isn't a WG. We wanted to avoid creating silos within the Open Web Platform, as it should work across platforms.
07:53:40 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: When we talked about the TV profile, and then changed it into a Media profile -- this is really more of a media IG than a TV IG. For example our movies group has the same issues and requirements, but they're not TV per se. The common theme has been media.
07:53:50 [matt]
giuseppe: There have been some things specific to TV --
07:53:55 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Like television remote
07:54:06 [matt]
giuseppe: Yes, and in those cases it does make sense to be specific.
07:54:15 [matt]
Topic: Agenda Building
07:54:17 [Youngsun]
Youngsun has joined #webtv
07:54:29 [matt]
giuseppe: So far, we've had a few topics suggested.
07:54:44 [matt]
giuseppe: The first is testing, we'll do some short presentations, but the discussion is important.
07:54:58 [matt]
giuseppe: Then an API for low level access to TV functionality.
07:55:08 [matt]
giuseppe: Relationship between @@
07:55:21 [matt]
giuseppe: Exposing Broadcast metadata to the Web.
07:55:36 [matt]
giuseppe: TV profiling has been on hold, we'll figure out if we want to continue that.
07:55:44 [matt]
giuseppe: A followup on the Home Network TF
07:56:04 [matt]
giuseppe: Then a presentation on 3D Web from LG.
07:56:16 [matt]
giuseppe: We received a liaison letter from ITU.
07:56:30 [matt]
giuseppe: And in the afternoon we have a joint session with the Broadcast BG.
07:56:35 [naomi]
naomi has joined #webtv
07:56:39 [matt]
giuseppe: Are there any other topics that we want to add to the agenda?
07:57:19 [matt]
giuseppe: I had some topics too that we had from previous F2Fs. Social TV, Accessibility, Parental Control and BPs for content developers.
07:57:34 [robin]
robin has joined #webtv
07:57:41 [bryan]
This is bryan, I am in the Webapps meeting right now. I would like to add offline storage on local filesystems to the agenda - where are we with the File* APIs, what more do we need?
07:57:49 [ot]
Would vote +1 on Accessibility, although I suspect it runs through a lot of the other topics
07:58:08 [matt]
shau: When we talk about Web vs TV content, and talk about hybrid content.
07:58:38 [matt]
yosuke: Integerating with MMT for multiple streams.
07:59:23 [matt]
sheau: I thought MMT was more in the context of combining these and providing to the browser, while I was interested in combining them in the browser. If I could have time, I'd like five minutes of discussion.
07:59:28 [matt]
s/shau/sheau/
08:00:22 [bryan]
Guiseppe, just so you capture that as a proposed agenda item (offline storage), including quota and IndexedDB use for offline content storage.
08:00:34 [bryan]
thx
08:00:47 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: On parental control, it reminds me of an issue on TV services in general where parental control is an issue. There's a hole in the specs that need to be filled.
08:01:08 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Just call it "TV services"
08:01:51 [matt]
giuseppe: The group is always open. The TFs focus on specific things, while the IG itself is open to anything.
08:02:10 [ot]
ot has joined #webtv
08:02:39 [matt]
kaz: We have several new members and observers and I was wondering about the possibility of these new people who might have new issues.
08:03:15 [matt]
Jens: From ??
08:03:37 [ot]
s/??/Panasonic/
08:03:53 [jcverdie]
jcverdie has joined #webtv
08:06:27 [matt]
??: Integrating DNB and the Web.
08:06:47 [Dewa]
s/DNB/DMB/
08:06:48 [matt]
??: If there are too many users the streaming does not work.
08:07:17 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Definitely interesting topic.
08:07:39 [hyun]
hyun has joined #webtv
08:07:51 [matt]
sheau: Switching, you need to think about when you're streaming one to one 30,000 people watching one program, you want to switch it.
08:08:05 [matt]
masahito: Let's add this to synchronization.
08:10:07 [Shinji]
Shinji has joined #webtv
08:11:35 [matt]
??: From Ministry of Communications Japan: there are so many topics, should we allocate approximate times?
08:11:46 [matt]
giuseppe: We'll have approximately half an hour for each.
08:12:17 [matt]
giuseppe: Or maybe 20 minutes each after adding the new topics.
08:12:27 [shoko]
s/??/Shigeo Okamoto/
08:13:26 [matt]
Jesus: I'm interested in new protocols and streaming features. We're sure to use the media streaming extensions.
08:15:16 [matt]
Topic: Testing
08:15:18 [Veronica]
Veronica has joined #webtv
08:15:31 [jcverdie]
jcverdie has joined #webtv
08:15:58 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Web and TV Testing TF
08:16:06 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: What does testing have to do with the Web and TV IG?
08:16:22 [robin]
robin has joined #webtv
08:16:34 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Coming from requirements and use cases: 1 main use case involving testing: verifying spec development. It's a distributed process, each group decides the scope and extent of testing.
08:17:11 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: I don't think any change should be done to testing the spec development. What I want to talk about is, is it of interest in taking on additional roles of testing beyond that in spec development.
08:17:50 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: One new area would be testing to improve the consistency of the Web Platform. Any developer knows there's an overhead cost for inconsistencies. That's a cost that's borne by everyone over time.
08:18:08 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Does W3C want to take on more tests with the goal of improving the consistency of the Web Platform?
08:18:47 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Particularly there are things done outside the browser in plugins for instance. Now that the media is closer to the browser itself we get cross browser compatibility issues.
08:19:32 [Jun_Liao_CU]
Jun_Liao_CU has joined #webtv
08:19:33 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Then we could also support other external testing and certification groups. These others have developed tests, they've actually developed different semantics. This should be done within the W3C, because this is where the Web is defined.
08:19:46 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: I don't think W3C should be involved in certification, just getting hooked in with these groups.
08:20:09 [Alan]
Alan has joined #webtv
08:20:09 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Mobile device groups have been working on testing across devices, and we have the same concern for devices.
08:20:21 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: We need more test coverage and set some priorities.
08:21:08 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: We need requirements for a central test runner. Requirements for devices too. And then we also need to work with other groups doing W3C testing. the mobile groups (core-mob), broadcasting, etc.
08:21:33 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: There's potentially a million different tests for the mobile platform. We should look at tools, e.g. Modernizr, figure out what those tools do to solve cross platform issues and fix those issues.
08:21:49 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: We could develop surveys to find major issues. We could have workshops too.
08:21:53 [kaz]
kaz has joined #webtv
08:22:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html kaz
08:22:24 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: As to a central test running, we need one URL as a home to all the tests, with one click to run.
08:22:54 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Clear results summarizing top level pass/fail results. Configuration options for the tester. And also detailed results.
08:23:04 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: The WebGL conformance test suite is a good example.
08:23:14 [noriya]
noriya has joined #webtv
08:23:44 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: In the WebGL test suite, you can turn on and off individual features, configure it dynamically or have a file of configuration properties, etc.
08:23:46 [ot]
https://www.khronos.org/registry/webgl/sdk/tests/webgl-conformance-tests.html
08:23:53 [ot]
(webgl conformance test suite)
08:23:59 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: We could essentially do this but for W3C. Still have the groups do what they're doing, but wrap it in this.
08:24:00 [Ruinan]
Ruinan has joined #webtv
08:24:32 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: As to requirements for devices, we need to be able to do remote testing.
08:24:35 [jeff]
jeff has joined #webtv
08:25:05 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Do we think these are new roles we should be taking on? Comcast is willing to put money towards this. I think this would be of value to all of us and cut expenses.
08:25:28 [matt]
giles?: We are quite used to this sort of thing for television.
08:25:35 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: What is the plan in the UK?
08:25:56 [matt]
giles?: The ?? group is developing tests. These are more about getting a badge than this large group.
08:26:05 [matt]
Craig?: Is this testing for HTML 5?
08:26:08 [matt]
giles?: Yes it is.
08:26:09 [yosuke]
yosuke has joined #webtv
08:26:24 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: I've been discouraging DLNA from creating their own HTML 5 tests, and instead have them create tests for W3C.
08:26:37 [sakih]
sakih has joined #webtv
08:26:46 [matt]
s/giles?/giles/g
08:26:54 [matt]
s/Craig?/Craig/g
08:27:21 [matt]
giuseppe: There is value to central testing, since every group has to do this, or trying to do this already, there is a big value in sharing.
08:27:43 [matt]
Craig: +1 to both of those sentiments. If you have a splintering of the test community that can end up changing the spec, or implementations in some ways.
08:27:47 [jens]
jens has joined #webtv
08:28:07 [matt]
jeff: All of the groups involved in testing have a similar desire to not reinvent the wheel. Others say whatever we do we should coordinate.
08:28:56 [matt]
??: Testing is very important, and there are lots of activities in W3C. In context of W3C, we need to first decide what to test. TV Profile? TV API? We need to clarify what we need to achieve in scope of TV.
08:29:09 [kaz]
s/??:/Dong-Young:/
08:29:28 [bryan]
q+
08:29:47 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: In core-mob they've developed a mobile profile, similar to our media profile. I think we could combine those efforts to have two profiles to talk about, and they've been talking about how to test them. I bet the TV point of view will be the same as theirs. From my point of view a TV and a mobile device are all merging.
08:30:13 [matt]
giuseppe: We can do these things in parallel too. We can pick specs that are more important than others.
08:30:19 [CF]
CF has joined #webtv
08:30:20 [bryan]
q?
08:30:35 [matt]
yosuke: Do you have any idea how to coordinate the groups?
08:31:06 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Our point of view is requirements. Other groups are developing tools, etc.
08:31:23 [matt]
bryan: WRT adding things into the scope of core-mob, we're looking at finalizing our spec in 2012, 2013 starting soon.
08:31:56 [matt]
bryan: We're assuming the things we're required would be adopted into the testing of other groups. We'd expect those leading things that are bugs in existing spec work to be brought into core-mob 2013.
08:32:25 [matt]
giuseppe: The test suite for testing that the spec is correct may be separate from testing for devices for example.
08:32:40 [kaz]
q?
08:32:43 [kaz]
ack bryan
08:33:34 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: For example HTML5 2014 has a number of tests for the spec and we shouldn't interfere with that stuff, but we can do things in parallel within the w3c. There's also the test the web forward effort, which are outside w3c and doing great work. I think w3c could raise funds and get tests done and improve the Web platform.
08:33:45 [matt]
ph: I want to give an overview of what's happening at W3C around testing.
08:34:33 [matt]
ph: There's work on the test framework from the Web Testing Interest Group. There's Test the Web Forward (w3c is a partner). The CoreMob CG is testing too. And there's the Browser Testing WG.
08:35:05 [matt]
ph: So how do you know what is going on? There's a doc called "Standards for Web Applications on Mobile: current state and roadmap".
08:35:09 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
08:35:13 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:35:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html kaz
08:35:30 [matt]
ph: This lists many specs and is updated every few months or so. It has a test suite column for a certain area of functionality.
08:35:44 [matt]
ph: That's a good place to start if you want to know what is going on in a certain area wrt testing.
08:36:28 [matt]
ph: Then there is the test framework, which lists many of the test suites that exist. You can run them from the framework, it's very much like the WebGL tool, but we're just starting this effort.
08:37:02 [matt]
ph: For example, here's the test suite for video. You can configure it and click on run, see it run and look at pass/fail results.
08:37:58 [matt]
ph: You can see aggregated test results, see which browsers have run it, what the results were, and even the IP.
08:38:06 [kaz]
s/@@/MPEG MMT-CI and HTML5/
08:38:29 [matt]
ph: That's the "Test Framework", there are 3,500 tests integrated based on the requirements document that were developed. TV wasn't mentioned a lot, mobile was.
08:38:45 [matt]
ph: There's the Web Testing IG working on testing too.
08:39:23 [matt]
ph: W3C is partnered in Test the Web Forward. We've had one in San Francsico, Peking and Paris. We've had speakers from many across W3C. So far, not a lot of tests have been produced. That's the common theme: not enough test cases.
08:39:47 [matt]
robin: The first one didn't produce many tests, the 2nd produced more, and the third produced 400 test cases. We're getting better at teaching people to write tests.
08:40:16 [sakkuru_]
sakkuru_ has joined #webtv
08:40:23 [matt]
ph: CoreMob Community Group was launched by Facebook at MWC 2012, to agree on core features that developers can depend upon. They also compile conformance suites.
08:40:45 [matt]
ph: Very similar to what we're hearing from TV folks. They've got 280 participants signed up, but haven't delivered much yet.
08:41:10 [matt]
ph: The Browser Testing and Tools WG is working on the "Web Driver" API, where you can automate testing by simulating user actions.
08:41:49 [matt]
ph: Test meetings at TPAC, there's two breakout sessions: Test the Web Forward Recap and Future Planning, and Testing at W3C.
08:42:04 [matt]
ph: There is also the Web Testing WG meeting Monday/Tuesday.
08:43:10 [matt]
ph: If you look at the framework compared to the TV requirements that Mark put forward, I think we're close. One URL as a home is the intent. One click to run we have rudimentary support. Clear results, yes. Detailed results, yes.
08:43:43 [matt]
ph: In summary: it's slow progress. Lots of discussion on tooling and perfected, but the tooling still is not great in my opinion. There's also a lack of actual tests.
08:43:59 [matt]
ph: Not a lot of specs are marked with high coverage.
08:44:28 [matt]
ph: So, what is the reason? Maybe it's not a good topic for a consensus driven organization like W3C groups. Too much hope on crowd sourcing?
08:44:40 [matt]
ph: I'd suggest dedicated resources at W3C for tool building and test writing.
08:45:11 [matt]
giueseppe: There is a lot going on. What can we do to coordinate?
08:45:33 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Part of what we need to do in the IG is analogous to what CoreMob has done for mobile. Maybe CoreTV?
08:45:44 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: We've got a media profile group that we are going to talk about.
08:46:18 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Tool requirements there will be overlap. We do need to talk with other groups too. But importantly, I think we need to build these tools and it is going to take money to go after this.
08:46:30 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Crowd sourcing is great, but it's going to take coordination.
08:46:33 [kaz]
q+ Aaron
08:46:36 [kaz]
ack A
08:46:50 [matt]
Aaron: Is there test authoring documents for how to write these tetsts? How I'm supposed to use this framework?
08:47:28 [matt]
robin: There is some documentation on how to maintain a test, it's probably something we'll keep in flux as it's something we're not happy with yet. Probably the best way is to be in touch with the Web and Test WG.
08:47:50 [kaz]
q+ Okamoto
08:47:52 [kaz]
ack Oka
08:48:12 [matt]
Okamoto: This is what W3C has already started doing, is it sufficient?
08:48:33 [bryan]
for testing how-to, see http://w3c.github.com/testing-how-to/#(1)
08:48:58 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: The current goal of testing, supporting spec development, has a goal of one test for each feature, roughly. That's to prove out the feature to get the spec to completion. That is short of a thorough test that is more than just that an existing feature is there.
08:49:12 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: The kind of tests that are developed during the spec process is the same, we just need more of them.
08:49:18 [jens]
jens has joined #webtv
08:49:29 [matt]
Okamoto: My understanding of your proposal is we need discussion about requirements of tests.
08:49:55 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Should we create a TF for writing test requirements for the TV area?
08:50:09 [matt]
yosuke: We will do gap analysis between existing tests at W3C and TV?
08:50:11 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Yes.
08:50:30 [matt]
giuseppe: And liase with other groups in W3C about this.
08:51:08 [matt]
masahito: I think there has been support for this within the IG, unless there is explicit objection to it. If there is no opposition I think there is no harm to having a Task Force for this in our rechartering.
08:52:34 [matt]
masahito: If I understand correctly, Philipp's presentation describes the status of testing within W3C. What we can do is look at this resource which we can use.
08:52:57 [matt]
masahito: We can model after these, or take some ideas or collaborate with other groups in the interest of the IG.
08:53:16 [matt]
giueseppe: There's interest, it would be good to have someone lead it.
08:53:31 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: I'm happy to hold it for now, but we can see.
08:53:31 [jeff]
Mark++
08:53:53 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #webtv
08:53:59 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:53:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html matt
08:54:15 [matt]
Topic: Offline storage
08:54:35 [matt]
bryan: I'll send a message to the list and drop it into the IRC.
08:54:38 [bryan]
Re my proposed agenda topic for File* and Indexed DB use for offline content storage: There is a proposal in Webapps to take the FileSystem API (http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/file-system/file-dir-sys.html) off REC track. But there is no alternate proposal or effort to develop an explicit Gallery API (this was dropped from DAP earlier when the FileSystem API was handed to Webapps, and gallery use cases expected to be implemented on top of them, e.g. with me[CUT]
08:54:42 [Mark_Vickers]
Mark_Vickers has joined #webtv
08:55:11 [matt]
bryan: Basically what I wanted to say was that for us there were three top gaps in the Web Platform for the Web and TV use cases.
08:55:22 [bryan]
etc). The ability to manage and access large amounts of locally stored content (local meaning on the device or in the local network) is key to enabling offline use cases. IMO this is one of the top 3 gaps in the current Web platform support for Web & TV (the other two are adaptive streaming and content protection). We either need to ensure that the File*/FileSystem APIs support these use cases, or that we have feasible support for network-local storage
08:55:24 [matt]
bryan: Adaptive streaming and content protection are two of them. Offline storage was the third.
08:56:04 [matt]
bryan: The file system API has been proposed to take off rec-track in WebApps. Other than the Gallery API in DAP, we don't have any way to manage local device storage. So, it is a gap still, and we need to figure out a way to close that.
08:56:11 [Shigei]
Shigei has joined #webtv
08:56:19 [jcdufourd]
jcdufourd has joined #webtv
08:56:44 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: Use cases for this?
08:56:56 [bryan]
...management/access from Web apps. Network-local in this case means something accessible via HTTP (even device-locally served) or abstracted e.g. through a Gallery Intent (e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-gallery-20120712/) which allows the storage of media as well as "picking" something to play.
08:57:02 [matt]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-and-tv/2012Oct/0008 Bryan's message about file system
08:57:14 [matt]
bryan: If I want to download a video or manage a cache --
08:57:19 [bryan]
But for local storage accessed directly through JavaScript APIs exposed by the Web browser/runtime (the preferred capability), we need either the earlier-envisioned functionality of the DAP FileSystem API, or Indexed DB APIs and storage support that supports in essence a high-performance/volume virtual filesystem managed by the browser.
08:57:31 [matt]
??: I can vouch for that use case. People want to download their news, and now it's not just text, but videos, etc.
08:57:36 [Giles_Godart-Brown]
Giles_Godart-Brown has joined #WEBTV
08:57:40 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: We've got a use case for download and go for example.
08:57:46 [ot]
oops
08:57:53 [ot]
s/??/Olivier/
08:58:29 [matt]
bryan: I brought this up on WebApps when the FIle System API was proposed to take off rec-track, if we could find a way to access file system API in some way in IndexDB, that'd be ok, but is someone going to sign up to do that?
08:58:46 [glenn]
glenn has joined #webtv
08:59:13 [matt]
giuseppe: If someone is going to implement such a thing...
08:59:45 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: We could have download functionality, or record functionally, or play recording functionality requirements then other groups can decide whether it's a database or file system API.
09:00:04 [matt]
bryan: I think one of the gaps that isn't being addressed is storage.
09:00:40 [matt]
giueseppe: If there are people who have the time to work on it and want to explore it then we should.
09:00:46 [Yukio]
Yukio has joined #webtv
09:00:46 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: I would definitely work on the group.
09:01:06 [matt]
Craig: Me too.
09:01:33 [matt]
bryan: I'd be interested in driving this discussion about what is potentially available or how do we motivate existing work to be implemented, yes, I'd be interested in facilitating that.
09:01:41 [matt]
giueseppe: The ML is always there, we can start there.
09:01:57 [jiro]
jiro has joined #webtv
09:02:09 [jcdufourd]
Present+ Jean-Claude Dufourd
09:02:18 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: I think if you take it from the point of view of "what do you need to download a recording? make a recording? play a recording?" those requirements are there.
09:02:28 [matt]
giueseppe: Why is it being dropped?
09:02:32 [Yukio]
Yukio has left #webtv
09:02:37 [matt]
bryan: It's going to be discussed today at 4.
09:02:53 [matt]
jeff: My impression is that it's not that local storage is unimportant just that the spec isn't there.
09:03:02 [matt]
giueseppe: It's important to start from requirements.
09:03:39 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: I'd like to look at the problem statement rather than solution statement. Recording, downloading and playing from download is the problem statement.
09:04:11 [matt]
bryan: I agree, recording or caching, more or less the same thing. If behind that was a robust storage support, we'd be happy.
09:06:00 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: I think it's important to define the APIs, I don't think this is something that would be required for a television.
09:06:27 [matt]
masahito: We're not writing specs, we're just understanding requirements from the stakeholders.
09:06:42 [Veronica]
Veronica has joined #webtv
09:06:42 [marcin_hanclik]
marcin_hanclik has joined #webtv
09:06:45 [matt]
giueseppe: Next steps: discuss on mailing list, see if there's a core group of people to discuss --
09:06:53 [matt]
masahito: Do we want this in the recharter?
09:07:03 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: I think we should include everything we know we're going to do.
09:08:18 [matt]
Topic: TV Channel API
09:08:39 [Shigeo]
Shigeo has joined #webtv
09:08:45 [Veronica]
Veronica has left #webtv
09:08:57 [matt]
Guen Hyung Kim: This presentation was written by me from Mobile Web Forum and Sung Hei Kim from ETRI.
09:09:42 [matt]
Guen: We'll talk about use cases for convergence service. Why we should consider channel API. Then discuss some requirements. And then a proposal for channel and program information.
09:10:18 [matt]
Guen: Convergence service, one example is when a user changes the channel, the broadcasting content and corresponding content/services should be displayed on the TV screen.
09:11:17 [matt]
Guen: The user is on channel 5 with web related data around it, and then channel is then changed to 6, and the related information changes as well.
09:11:45 [matt]
Guen: So should consider an API for controlling the channel.
09:12:21 [matt]
Guen: The 2nd use case would be when the user is using convergence service, the user wants to change the view to full screen. We should consider how to manipulate the window sizes.
09:13:19 [ph]
ph has joined #webtv
09:13:41 [matt]
Guen: To support this use case we think 3 APIs should be considered: running the channel (up/down/set), obtaining channel and program information (scan, get current channel info, get channel list, get current program information, get program list), and window size adjustment (full screen, enlarge/curtail screen size).
09:14:15 [yosuke]
yosuke has joined #webtv
09:14:41 [tomoyuki]
tomoyuki has joined #webtv
09:15:39 [matt]
Guen:Requirements: The development of the APIs should adopt existing standards like the <video> tag.
09:16:02 [leetv2]
leetv2 has joined #webtv
09:16:22 [matt]
Guen: <presents API details for channel/program information>
09:16:27 [Yoshihiro]
Yoshihiro has joined #webtv
09:17:15 [matt]
Giles_Godart-Brown: There are a lot of other things about a program you may want to know, subtitles, network ID, etc.
09:17:29 [matt]
Giles_Godart-Brown: This is a big task that Mark and I have played with many years ago.
09:17:45 [matt]
giueseppe: Is this similar to Olivier's presentation?
09:17:48 [matt]
Olivier: Yes.
09:18:34 [matt]
Olivier: I don't quite understand the need for the full-screen API, why does it need to be an API, I understand the need for the functionality.
09:18:49 [matt]
Guen: If the user wants to watch the TV content full-screen, then some API is required.
09:19:13 [matt]
Guen: It is some view of full-screen API.
09:19:34 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: There is a full-screen API that is implemented in several browsers, have you looked at it?
09:19:43 [matt]
Guen: If there is, we can use the full-screen API.
09:19:48 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #webtv
09:20:18 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: I think the meta-data is a big overlap with Olivier, but I think the full-screen API covers the requirements you list I believe.
09:20:33 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/TR/fullscreen/ Full screen API
09:21:04 [matt]
Guen: I think the Fullscreen API might support the use cases.
09:22:06 [matt]
Olivier: Talking about multi-screen -- not necessarily second screen -- what the HNTF have already required is pretty good, but I think there is much more in there that we want to push with maybe a little twist. So far the work has been thinking about the living room, but I think we want to go beyond.
09:22:26 [matt]
Olivier: Working with hybrid devices, e.g. TV and internet.
09:22:44 [matt]
Olivier: BBC has been working in RadioDNS.
09:23:23 [matt]
Olivier: If you're listening to a broadcast, FM or DAB, there's very little data available: broadcaster info, channel/stream and maybe some timing and sync info. What RadioDNS does is pass that information to the IP connected bit of yourdevice.
09:23:24 [matt]
.
09:23:53 [matt]
Olivier: Then your IP side can contact a RadioDNS server and get back additional information that's available over IP.
09:24:25 [bryan]
link to RadioDNS http://radiodns.org/
09:24:37 [matt]
Olivier: So we've got additional service built on that, such as RadioTAG, e.g. bookmarking, tagging, etc. From the IP stack you are doing something just from the broadcaster and timing information from the radio.
09:25:31 [matt]
Olivier: Then RadioVIS, which adds visual information. It's not a particularly good experience compared to streaming IP radio, but it is expected. Bridging what's available on broadcast vs IP, people are very interested in that.
09:26:01 [matt]
Olivier: This can be enabled by exposing discrete, small APIs. Information is important but timing is as well to do services connecting broadcast and IP.
09:26:29 [matt]
Olivier: The Audio WG is related in that MIDI does timing information over a small API.
09:26:44 [matt]
Olivier: BBC has changed our view from massive APIs to small APIs.
09:29:46 [kunio]
exit
09:31:34 [tomoyuki]
tomoyuki has joined #webtv
09:36:57 [tomoyuki]
tomoyuki has joined #webtv
09:42:55 [Ethan]
Ethan has joined #webtv
09:52:41 [tomoyuki]
tomoyuki has joined #webtv
10:00:21 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #webtv
10:01:50 [leetv]
leetv has joined #webtv
10:02:40 [hitoshi]
hitoshi has joined #webtv
10:03:06 [Takahiro]
Takahiro has joined #webtv
10:03:52 [ph]
ph has joined #webtv
10:04:09 [leetv2]
leetv2 has joined #webtv
10:04:29 [Kunio]
Kunio has joined #webtv
10:04:56 [leetv2]
leetv2 has joined #webtv
10:05:30 [jcdufourd]
jcdufourd has joined #webtv
10:05:52 [yosuke]
wiki page for next presentation: http://www.w3.org/community/webandbroadcasting/wiki/MediaUseCasesForWebIdentity
10:06:04 [leetv]
leetv has joined #webtv
10:06:31 [jiro]
jiro has joined #webtv
10:06:36 [kaz]
topic: Web and Broadcasting BG - Yosuke
10:07:02 [kaz]
scribe: kaz
10:07:05 [kaz]
scribenick: kaz
10:07:06 [tokamoto_]
tokamoto_ has joined #webtv
10:07:22 [robin]
robin has joined #webtv
10:07:30 [kaz]
yosuke: delivery of premium content
10:07:31 [ph_]
ph_ has joined #webtv
10:07:35 [ph_]
scribe: ph
10:07:53 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #webtv
10:08:11 [Ruinan_]
Ruinan_ has joined #webtv
10:08:15 [ph_]
yosuke presents media use cases for web identity
10:08:45 [Dong-Young_Lee]
Dong-Young_Lee has joined #webtv
10:08:57 [Ruinan_]
Ruinan_ has joined #webtv
10:09:15 [tomoyuki]
tomoyuki has joined #webtv
10:09:23 [ph_]
developed by web and broadcasting bg
10:10:12 [Jun_Liao_CU]
Jun_Liao_CU has joined #webtv
10:10:12 [noriya]
noriya has joined #webtv
10:10:47 [kaz]
sakai-san adds some clarification
10:11:03 [shige]
shige has joined #webtv
10:11:03 [Giles_Godart-Brown]
Giles_Godart-Brown has joined #WEBTV
10:11:14 [Mark_Vickers]
Mark_Vickers has joined #webtv
10:11:45 [ph_]
need to transfer subscriber ids used on tv to other devices
10:12:11 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:12:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html matt
10:12:13 [ph_]
giuseppe: connection to other two presentations?
10:12:17 [naomi]
naomi has joined #webtv
10:12:27 [matt]
Meeting: Web and TV Interest Group F2F
10:12:51 [Juhani]
Juhani has joined #webtv
10:12:51 [ph_]
yosuke: integration of broadcast - adding interface to premium content
10:13:11 [ph_]
giuseppe: does media extensions work in html5 enable this?
10:13:33 [ph_]
yosuke: that is part of drm - not dealing with id
10:14:24 [ph_]
mark: there is a relationship - identiy is in there, but drm specific, part of drm - many other scenarios where device identiy is valuable
10:14:38 [ph_]
independent of type of drm that you've chosen
10:14:49 [ph_]
we brought this up in web cryptography wg
10:14:50 [jcverdie]
jcverdie has joined #webtv
10:14:51 [Hyun]
Hyun has joined #webtv
10:14:55 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #webtv
10:15:00 [hbang]
hbang has joined #webTV
10:15:04 [kinji-matsumura]
kinji-matsumura has joined #webtv
10:15:07 [matt]
Chair: Yosuke_Funahashi, Masahito_Kawamori, HyeonJae_Lee, Giuseppe_Pascale, Mark_Vickers
10:15:14 [ph_]
movielabs: what id are we talking about?
10:15:23 [skim13]
skim13 has joined #webtv
10:15:35 [ph_]
webid only user id, or generic id for users, devices, content
10:15:42 [tokamoto]
tokamoto has joined #webtv
10:15:50 [ph_]
yosuke: not clear how we can use webid
10:16:33 [ph_]
mark: web crypto api work - keys are stored by browser - opaque key object can be stored in software or hardware module
10:16:38 [kaz]
s/movielabs:/pierre:/
10:16:53 [ph_]
used for device identity on tvs that is independent of drm
10:17:05 [ph_]
could come from tv or smartcard
10:17:29 [ph_]
mark vickers: should we contribute use cases and requireements to web cryptography wg?
10:17:40 [ph_]
mark: yes, since controversial discussion
10:18:16 [ph_]
giuseppe: sounds like a very specific issue
10:18:36 [ph_]
mark vicker: might be separate from general metadata discussion, part of cryptography
10:18:44 [a12u]
a12u has joined #webtv
10:18:56 [kaz]
s/rrsagent, draft minutes
10:19:01 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:19:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html kaz
10:19:08 [ph_]
could have smaller effort just focussed on web cryptography group
10:19:26 [sheau]
sheau has joined #webtv
10:19:54 [ph_]
...
10:20:07 [kaz]
i/yosuke presents/scribenick: ph_/
10:20:09 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:20:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html kaz
10:20:49 [kaz]
s|s/rrsagent, draft minutes||
10:20:50 [jens]
jens has joined #webtv
10:20:54 [ph_]
giuseppe: collect items and share with publlic list?
10:20:55 [toru]
toru has joined #webtv
10:20:58 [ph_]
yosuke: ok
10:21:14 [ph_]
giuseppe: back to olivier
10:21:39 [ph_]
olivier: break discussions on what's the right approach - lot of interest on broadcast metadata apis
10:21:52 [sakkuru]
sakkuru has joined #webtv
10:22:20 [Skim]
Skim has joined #webtv
10:22:22 [ph_]
do we form task force to look at these apis? what are specific challengs that we have? big challenge is differences in broadcasting systems in differnt markets
10:22:35 [ph_]
but think simple API could cover all
10:22:37 [bryan]
bryan has joined #webtv
10:23:09 [craig]
craig has joined #webtv
10:23:39 [ph_]
mark vickers: related to tv services - gap in specifications - mpgeg transport etc carry metadata - html5 talks about accessing those - missing: mapping
10:23:55 [ph_]
cablelabs wrote mpeg2 mapping document
10:24:04 [ph_]
not clear where home for this is
10:24:14 [ph_]
mpeg?
10:24:32 [ph_]
or central space at w3c? here's how you do the mapping
10:24:48 [ph_]
we just need a home - then need to do this for all other things, like webm
10:24:56 [ph_]
olivier: can we publish interest group note?
10:25:17 [ph_]
mark vickers: it's clearly a spec
10:25:40 [ph_]
here's how html5 and mpeg work together - not sure what group this would live in
10:25:49 [ph_]
matt: could start with note in ig
10:25:57 [ph_]
then move to rec space
10:26:23 [ph_]
..., nbc: right now mpeg2 universal, but one level down things are different by region
10:26:38 [ph_]
...
10:27:11 [ph_]
...: could write requirement that we need mapping, do work in html5
10:27:17 [ph_]
giuseppe: not sure about html5
10:27:27 [ph_]
mark: don't make this mpeg2 specific, but general
10:27:54 [ph_]
have subsections covering different formats
10:28:19 [ph_]
mark vickers: map from local specs into standard api
10:28:26 [kaz]
s/..., nbc:/Sheau:/
10:28:31 [jiro]
jiro has joined #webtv
10:28:34 [tomoyuki]
tomoyuki has joined #webtv
10:28:42 [ph_]
some of the metadata that were mentioned do not have api in html5
10:28:48 [ph_]
some of them have, but there's no mapping
10:29:09 [ph_]
mark: track langauge etc. - there is info in html5 spec where to find this in mpeg2 etc.
10:29:21 [ph_]
mark: will find cablelabs spec and put in irc
10:29:43 [ph_]
giuseppe: html5 indeed has some indications, not sure they are complete
10:29:52 [ph_]
s/indications/indications on mapping/
10:30:09 [ph_]
..., LG: there is also media annotation WG, Ontology and APIs
10:30:24 [ph_]
not sure it would satisfy all our requirements, but worth looking at
10:30:31 [jiro]
jiro has joined #webtv
10:30:48 [jiro_]
jiro_ has joined #webtv
10:30:49 [kaz]
s/..., LG:/Dong-Young:/
10:30:58 [sburr]
sburr has joined #webtv
10:31:09 [ph_]
..., Samsung: media annotation wg is closing (explains idea behind) - common ontollogy - CableLabs, TVanytime, ... all of them
10:31:30 [kawada]
kawada has joined #webtv
10:31:44 [Mark_Vickers]
Here's a link to the CableLabs spec, "Mapping from MPEG-2 Transport to HTML5" http://www.cablelabs.com/specifications/CL-SP-HTML5-MAP-I01-120120.pdf
10:31:52 [ph_]
...
10:32:12 [tokamoto_]
tokamoto_ has joined #webtv
10:32:19 [kaz]
s/..., Samsung:/Soohong:/
10:32:19 [Mark_Vickers]
SSimilar mapping documents could be written for WebM, Matroska, etc.
10:32:42 [ph_]
...: commercial broadcasters might not have api to change channel
10:32:55 [ph_]
giuseppe: unless broadcaster controls the application
10:32:57 [jiro]
jiro has joined #webtv
10:33:19 [phutchins]
phutchins has joined #webtv
10:33:24 [kaz]
s/...: commercial/olivier: commercial/
10:33:53 [ph_]
s/might not/might not want/
10:34:24 [Mark_Vickers]
Here is an updated revision to the CableLabs mapping spec. Look at this instead: http://www.cablelabs.com/specifications/CL-SP-HTML5-MAP-I02-120510.pdf
10:34:32 [ph_]
yosuke: if we expose epg, problem: epg information of region requires extensions that are not standard(?)
10:35:11 [ph_]
giuseppe: i notice interest, direction is not clear yet
10:35:38 [ph_]
..., Samsung: EPG doesnt' matter in some cases
10:35:58 [kaz]
s/..., Samsung:/Soohong:/
10:36:12 [pal]
pal has joined #webtv
10:36:32 [ph_]
...
10:36:59 [Veronica]
Veronica has joined #webtv
10:37:03 [ph_]
...: task force for service discovery?
10:37:13 [ph_]
giuseppe: there was, but didn't cover this
10:37:33 [kaz]
s/...: task force/masahito: task force/
10:37:51 [ph_]
metadata is different than changing channel etc. - better to have smalll groups by topic
10:38:04 [ph_]
for metadata, clear that we want to have a group- bbc interested in driving?
10:38:10 [ot]
/me nods
10:38:13 [ph_]
olivier: yes
10:39:06 [ph_]
yosuke: mark said html5 has functionality for accessing inband resources, but no mapping
10:39:49 [ph_]
giuseppe; hybrid devices tf?
10:39:59 [matt]
i|ph: I want|-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-and-tv/2012Oct/att-0009/TV_Testing.pdf Philipp's slides|
10:40:03 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:40:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html matt
10:40:14 [ph_]
is there interest? we have two/three
10:40:19 [ph_]
what is goal?
10:40:24 [Shinji]
Shinji has joined #webtv
10:40:32 [ph_]
mark: included in oliviers group?
10:40:39 [ph_]
olivier: assumed it was covered in my tf
10:40:44 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #webtv
10:40:56 [kotakagi2]
kotakagi2 has joined #webtv
10:41:04 [ph_]
mark channel ids would definitely part of oliviers tf
10:41:22 [ph_]
olivier: some questions of identity could be explored elsewhere
10:41:28 [jcverdie]
q+
10:41:44 [ph_]
giuseppe: not sure changing the channel is same thing as exposing metadata - but ok to have this in olliviers group
10:42:02 [kaz]
s/mark channel ids/mark_vickers: channel ids/
10:42:03 [ph_]
mark vickers: if topic wants to break out, it still can
10:42:09 [tobie]
tobie has joined #webtv
10:42:18 [kaz]
q?
10:42:57 [kaz]
ack jc
10:42:59 [ph_]
jcverdie, mstart: tv apis go way beyond channel changing - drm etc. - if we put in metadata, many important things will be left out
10:43:21 [ph_]
there is much more than just metadata
10:43:34 [kaz]
s/mstart/mstar/
10:43:38 [ph_]
giuseppe: concern about too many groups, but understand
10:43:55 [Giles]
Giles has joined #WEBTV
10:44:09 [ph_]
mark vickers: experience with task forces is spotty - had peak of tf calls a weak, then profile not so active
10:44:13 [ph_]
trying to find right balance
10:44:29 [ph_]
don't want to spread people too thin
10:44:53 [ph_]
jcverdie: not proponent of too many groups, but should make sure charter is clear
10:45:01 [ph_]
...
10:45:44 [karen_]
karen_ has joined #webtv
10:46:07 [ph_]
..., korea mobile: need to define what kind of apis are required in tv devices - ... - tv tuner separate from metadata issues
10:46:42 [kaz]
s/..., korea mobile:/geunhyung:/
10:46:55 [ph_]
jean-claude: there are existing apis that already do what is asked for
10:47:09 [ph_]
should discuss: can we pick things up? redefine things?
10:47:22 [ph_]
oipf, ... has apis for tuner control etc.
10:47:38 [ph_]
mark vickers: some work in ietf
10:48:09 [ph_]
jean-claude: describes oipf solutions
10:48:22 [ph_]
mark: tuner control very different from metadata problem
10:48:34 [kaz]
q+ okamoto
10:48:35 [kaz]
ack o
10:48:57 [jcverdie]
q+
10:49:00 [Mark_Vickers]
Here is a TV channel URI I co-authored published as an RFC 12 years ago: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2838
10:49:11 [ph_]
okamoto: want to make sure id issue is included
10:50:19 [bryan]
access to metadata is needed also for offline use cases, for which the metadata needs to be saved explicitly by the app or as part of the recording/caching support
10:51:00 [ph_]
..., NTT: maybe just list original proposals, so we know which discussion we had
10:51:14 [ph_]
giuseppe: will sort out how to organize later
10:52:18 [ph_]
bryan: would access to metadata also be used for storing metadata for offline use?
10:52:33 [ph_]
..., ntt: yes, we just discussed
10:52:45 [matt]
s/giuseppe;/giuseppe:/
10:53:17 [ph_]
mark: can see three separate topics - exposing metadata - tuner thing - capability discovery (what channel numbers are available etc.)
10:53:34 [Dewa]
s/NTT/masahito/
10:54:16 [ph_]
mark vickers: on cryptography - not sure this is a task force, but would appreciate a call to get up to speed
10:54:30 [ph_]
mark: will discuss on thu+fri this week
10:54:44 [ph_]
yosuke: see a lot of similartiy to tv anytime
10:55:14 [ph_]
giuseppe: we're not talking about defining metadata, but exposing
10:55:47 [ph_]
masahito: we define requiements, then look for solutions and/or find working group to create solution
10:56:19 [ph_]
...
10:56:54 [jiro]
jiro has joined #webtv
10:56:59 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:56:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html kaz
10:57:20 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #webtv
10:57:52 [ph_]
giuseppe: who wants to lead terminal api task force?
10:57:57 [kaz]
s/... , ntt:/masahito:/
10:58:21 [ph_]
jcverdie: can we have a breakout to check all the featuers? and to talk about one group or two groups?
10:59:06 [ph_]
..., LG: not sure we should work on terminal api - hardware centric approach - there is existing work in this area
10:59:18 [ph_]
instead we could explore more high-level approach
10:59:42 [ph_]
instead of discovering which channels are available, discover which media objects are available
10:59:49 [kaz]
s/..., LG:/Dong-Young:/
11:00:14 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
11:00:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html kaz
11:00:22 [ph_]
masahito: should do breakout session on Wednesday, JC will lead
11:00:31 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
11:00:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html kaz
11:00:42 [ph_]
giuseppe: two hour lunch break
11:02:47 [ph_]
..., LG: we may need separate lists for task forces
11:02:54 [ph_]
giuseppe; let's discuss later
11:03:17 [bryan]
bryan has left #webtv
11:03:25 [kaz]
s/..., LG:/HJ:/
11:03:30 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
11:03:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html kaz
11:03:35 [ph_]
jcverdie: for breakout on wednesday, should make sure DAP is involved
11:04:07 [kenji]
kenji has left #webtv
11:04:23 [Kunio]
exit
11:06:01 [Kunio]
quit
11:06:13 [jiro]
quit
11:16:30 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #webtv
11:18:55 [Veronica]
Veronica has joined #webtv
11:40:48 [marcin_hanclik]
marcin_hanclik has joined #webtv
11:47:18 [tomoyuki]
tomoyuki has joined #webtv
11:50:34 [jiro]
jiro has joined #webtv
11:51:22 [jiro]
quit
11:54:38 [jiro]
jiro has joined #webtv
11:56:07 [jiro]
jiro has joined #webtv
12:12:13 [a12u]
a12u has joined #webtv
12:15:56 [tokamoto]
tokamoto has joined #webtv
12:16:57 [a1zu]
a1zu has joined #webtv
12:22:32 [kohei]
kohei has joined #webtv
12:30:07 [kaz]
kaz has left #webtv
12:35:53 [Yoshihiro]
Yoshihiro has joined #webtv
12:36:19 [tomoyuki]
tomoyuki has joined #webtv
12:37:25 [Shinji]
Shinji has joined #webtv
12:38:37 [Dong-Young_Lee]
Dong-Young_Lee has joined #webtv
12:39:38 [kinji-matsumura]
kinji-matsumura has joined #webtv
12:41:16 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #webtv
12:42:26 [giles]
giles has joined #webtv
12:42:49 [marcin_hanclik]
marcin_hanclik has joined #webtv
12:43:06 [Ethan]
Ethan has joined #webtv
12:43:55 [sungok_You]
sungok_You has joined #webtv
12:44:00 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #webtv
12:45:27 [a12u]
a12u has joined #webtv
12:47:43 [jiro]
jiro has joined #webtv
12:48:00 [Keiji]
Keiji has joined #webtv
12:48:40 [jcdufourd]
jcdufourd has joined #webtv
12:50:49 [kunio]
kunio has joined #webtv
12:51:18 [hbang]
hbang has joined #webTV
12:51:29 [kaz]
kaz has joined #webtv
12:52:34 [Kiyoshi]
Kiyoshi has joined #webtv
12:53:41 [Youngsun]
Youngsun has joined #webtv
12:55:37 [noriya]
noriya has joined #webtv
12:55:47 [Takahiro]
Takahiro has joined #webtv
12:56:16 [yosuke]
yosuke has joined #webtv
12:57:14 [Alan]
Alan has joined #webtv
12:57:36 [Veronica]
Veronica has joined #webtv
12:57:45 [noriya_]
noriya_ has joined #webtv
12:59:01 [nick]
nick has joined #webtv
12:59:59 [kaz]
scribenick: kaz
13:00:06 [kenji]
kenji has joined #webtv
13:00:10 [kaz]
topic: Relationship between MPEG MMT-CI and HTML5
13:00:26 [shige]
shige has joined #webtv
13:00:27 [Hyun]
Hyun has joined #webtv
13:00:50 [kaz]
giuseppe: and next TV Pforiling, HNTF followup, Stereoscopic 3D Web and Synchronization of Web and TV content
13:01:02 [sakkuru]
sakkuru has joined #webtv
13:01:15 [kaz]
sheau: ODA, broadcast market
13:01:25 [kaz]
... US, Europe, Japan, etc. ...
13:01:27 [tokamoto]
tokamoto has joined #webtv
13:01:38 [kaz]
... not sure which group is working on
13:01:47 [CF]
CF has joined #webtv
13:01:56 [pal]
pal has joined #webtv
13:02:02 [Skim]
Skim has joined #webtv
13:02:03 [Juhani]
Juhani has joined #webtv
13:02:03 [olivier]
olivier has joined #webtv
13:02:16 [kaz]
... video distribution platform for various devices
13:02:32 [jcverdie]
jcverdie has joined #webtv
13:02:36 [leetv]
leetv has joined #webtv
13:02:53 [kaz]
giuseppe: also accessibility, captioning, etc.
13:03:10 [kaz]
... let's talk about the presentation on MPEG liaison
13:03:13 [glenn]
glenn has joined #webtv
13:03:28 [Mark_Vickers]
Mark_Vickers has joined #webtv
13:03:34 [kaz]
youngsung: (will give presentation)
13:03:59 [kaz]
... Young-sung from Samsung
13:04:18 [leetv2]
leetv2 has joined #webtv
13:04:21 [sakkuru]
sakkuru has joined #webtv
13:04:28 [kaz]
... MPEG video transport presentation
13:04:45 [kaz]
... motivation MMT
13:05:02 [kaz]
... multimedia services with connected TV
13:05:20 [kaz]
... HTML vs. composition information
13:05:31 [kaz]
... Scope of composition information
13:05:37 [giuseppe]
giuseppe has joined #webtv
13:05:49 [kaz]
... spatial presentation and temporal presentation
13:05:53 [yoshiaki]
yoshiaki has joined #webtv
13:05:54 [Sheau]
Sheau has joined #webtv
13:06:28 [kaz]
... multiple streams
13:06:46 [kaz]
... temporal relationship between areas
13:07:05 [kaz]
... also between components in the same area
13:07:13 [kaz]
... Example spatial layout
13:07:49 [kaz]
... combination of Video area, Widget area, etc.
13:08:21 [kaz]
... big screen display and small display
13:08:34 [kaz]
... Example of temporal layout
13:09:30 [kaz]
... Expectation
13:09:51 [kaz]
... discuss use cases and requirements
13:10:00 [kaz]
... find gaps
13:10:19 [kaz]
giuseppe: opinions?
13:10:33 [kaz]
markV: has there any comparison/gap analysis?
13:10:49 [kaz]
youngsun: HTML5 as basic technology
13:10:50 [dsinger]
note that many MMT documents including the committee draft, are public at http://mpeg.chiariglione.org/working_documents.php (search for MMT)
13:10:55 [kaz]
markV: list of gaps?
13:11:18 [kaz]
... some document on the comparison
13:11:27 [kaz]
s/... some/youngsun: some/
13:11:33 [kaz]
markV: useful for us to understand
13:11:54 [kaz]
giuseppe: people from this group (MPEG) would like to discuss with this IG?
13:12:01 [shoko]
shoko has joined #webtv
13:12:11 [kaz]
youngsun: would like to cooperate with each other
13:12:20 [kaz]
... we can show reports
13:12:22 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #webtv
13:12:28 [kaz]
giuseppe: phone calls?
13:12:36 [kaz]
youngsun: no conf call for MPEG
13:12:44 [kaz]
... there will be several f2f meetings
13:12:44 [naomi]
naomi has joined #webtv
13:12:57 [kaz]
... 21-25 Jan., 22-26 Apr.
13:13:08 [kaz]
masahito: you did gap analysis
13:13:13 [kaz]
... with SMIL?
13:13:18 [kaz]
youngsun: SMIL and HTML5
13:13:38 [kaz]
masahito: what about MPEG 21?
13:13:53 [kaz]
markW: HTML5 has many options
13:14:17 [kaz]
dsinger: if you see the above MMT draft
13:14:35 [kaz]
... they're not using HTML5 but changing it
13:14:43 [kaz]
yosuke: how to change?
13:14:57 [kaz]
markW: would response to this kind of question
13:15:15 [kaz]
... right place to discuss HTML5 is here W3C but not this IG
13:15:33 [kaz]
giuseppe: how you should/could do the changes
13:15:50 [kaz]
@@: how to deal with the changes?
13:16:11 [kaz]
s/@@/Maciej/
13:16:47 [slejeune]
slejeune has joined #webtv
13:16:57 [kaz]
markV: which of the documents did Dave mention?
13:17:00 [Comus]
Comus has joined #webtv
13:17:00 [sburr]
sburr has joined #webtv
13:17:19 [ph]
ph has joined #webtv
13:17:19 [matt]
-> http://mpeg.chiariglione.org/working_documents/mpeg-h/mmt/mmt.zip committee doc
13:17:28 [kaz]
dsinger: committee draft
13:17:49 [markw]
markw has joined #webtv
13:18:07 [kaz]
giuseppe: not sure if the HTML WG can deal with this
13:18:26 [jens]
jens has joined #webtv
13:18:32 [kaz]
maciej: we're in parallel for new extension draft
13:18:44 [csmithpeters]
csmithpeters has joined #webtv
13:19:15 [kaz]
giuseppe: would be simpler to directly bring to the HTML WG
13:19:42 [kaz]
... maybe it's worth checking what this document mentions
13:19:55 [kaz]
markV: we have a liaison with MPEG
13:20:15 [kaz]
giuseppe: have just got this statement through the liaison
13:20:30 [kaz]
... maybe we should have discussion on the mailing list
13:20:35 [Dewa]
Dewa has joined #webtv
13:20:40 [noriya_]
noriya_ has joined #webtv
13:20:48 [kaz]
dsinger: had discussion on the MPEG list
13:21:11 [kaz]
... better to have time-based mechanism
13:21:35 [kaz]
youngsun: requirement in the document
13:21:41 [matt]
-> http://mpeg.chiariglione.org/working_documents/mpeg-h/mmt/mmt_reqs.zip Requirements for MMT
13:21:52 [matt]
-> http://mpeg.chiariglione.org/working_documents/mpeg-h/mmt/mmt_uc.zip Use Cases for MMT
13:21:53 [HJ-LG]
HJ-LG has joined #webtv
13:22:09 [kaz]
markV: might suggest something since the liaison letter just come to this group
13:22:55 [kaz]
... we can let the HTML WG know about that immeadiately
13:23:04 [Keiji]
Keiji has joined #webtv
13:23:09 [kaz]
giuseppe: in addition to the discussion within the IG
13:23:17 [kaz]
masahito: what is the expectation of MPEG?
13:23:30 [kaz]
giuseppe: they want to discuss this with us
13:23:39 [kaz]
masahito: do they need a response from us?
13:23:56 [kaz]
youngsun: would like a response mentioning there is a plan, etc.
13:24:02 [kaz]
masahito: meeting timeline?
13:24:11 [kaz]
youngsun: Jan 21-25
13:24:19 [kaz]
masahito: coming soon
13:24:38 [kaz]
yosuke: when I joined the MPEG meeting recently
13:25:04 [kaz]
... NHK proposed how to deal with broadcasting signals simultaneously with IP signals
13:25:22 [kaz]
... maybe it implies multiple signals
13:25:32 [kaz]
giuseppe: we'll respond to MPEG
13:25:38 [dsinger]
the schedule for comments and ballots for 23008-1 (MMT) can be found at http://jtc1sc29@www.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/sc29/29w42911.htm (I think this is public)
13:25:43 [kaz]
... something could be done immediately, and something would take longer
13:26:05 [kaz]
dsinger: it's good to review the above as well
13:26:59 [kaz]
... the document will be revised at the January meeting
13:27:39 [kaz]
masahito: what about replying from this IG immediately, and then the HTML WG will respond later after discussion
13:27:41 [manyoung]
manyoung has joined #webtv
13:28:23 [kaz]
... e.g., saying thank you and letting them know the HTML WG is also reviewing
13:28:39 [phutchins]
phutchins has joined #webtv
13:28:52 [kaz]
... maybe Giuseppe can respond?
13:29:09 [kaz]
giuseppe: will draft the response
13:30:23 [kaz]
topic: Profiling
13:30:32 [kaz]
giuseppe: no presentation, though
13:30:45 [kawada]
kawada has joined #webtv
13:30:51 [kaz]
... people mentioned interest in profiling during the workshops
13:31:05 [kaz]
... but the profiling tf didn't fly
13:31:25 [kaz]
... similarity with CoreMob?
13:31:45 [tomoyuki]
tomoyuki has joined #webtv
13:31:47 [kaz]
... the question is that do we need Profiling? Specific use cases?
13:31:53 [kaz]
markV: it's useful
13:31:58 [robin]
robin has joined #webtv
13:32:12 [kaz]
... one of the characteristics of the HTML5 spec is being very flexible
13:32:18 [jeff]
jeff has joined #webtv
13:32:32 [kaz]
... JavaScript is optional, image is optional, etc.
13:32:50 [leetv]
leetv has joined #webtv
13:32:58 [kaz]
... what is usually done by the market?
13:33:11 [kaz]
... specs that are closely associated with HTML5
13:33:19 [kaz]
... WHAT WG, etc.
13:33:37 [dsinger]
how would I say in an HTML document "you need to be able to do X" or "you need to have at least the capability defined in Y" ?
13:33:43 [manyoung]
manyoung has joined #webtv
13:33:55 [kaz]
... also referencing tightly associated specs, e.g., Web Workers
13:34:20 [kaz]
olivier: Profiling is useful and needed
13:34:35 [olivier]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2012/09/connected_tv_apps.html
13:34:40 [kaz]
... difficulty with generating apps
13:34:48 [kaz]
... seems to be a good idea
13:35:16 [kaz]
... but we need to get input from other organizations
13:35:29 [kaz]
giuseppe: one of the difficulty is there are many different views
13:35:46 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #webtv
13:35:47 [olivier]
s/we need to get input from other organizations/not sure if we should do it or work with other orgs already building profiles/
13:36:07 [leetv2]
leetv2 has joined #webtv
13:36:32 [kaz]
markV: need to see differences?
13:36:46 [kaz]
giuseppe: any other views?
13:37:14 [kaz]
markV: what we should do might be collecting what the other groups have been doing
13:37:29 [Shinji]
Shinji has joined #webtv
13:37:39 [kaz]
dsinger: want to define a profile?
13:38:00 [kaz]
giuseppe: we need a subset of HTML5
13:39:33 [kaz]
markV: no extension (new JS, elements)
13:39:54 [CF]
CF has joined #webtv
13:39:56 [kaz]
dsinger: signaling mechanism?
13:40:05 [kaz]
maciej: HTML5 doesn't have it
13:41:12 [kaz]
... some of the features mentioned optional within HTML5
13:41:38 [kaz]
... you can make a browser which doesn't have interaction capability for offline use
13:41:45 [jens]
jens has joined #webtv
13:42:21 [kaz]
... it is the case for the collection of other specs too
13:42:41 [kaz]
... e.g., for more limited use cases
13:43:07 [kaz]
markV: manufacturers are asking us
13:43:38 [kaz]
maciej: updatability is challenging
13:44:13 [kaz]
... Web technology is so complicated
13:44:14 [jcverdie]
jcverdie has joined #webtv
13:44:37 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:44:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html matt
13:44:47 [kaz]
sheau: narrow down the scope?
13:45:00 [kaz]
maciej: basic level of your expectation
13:45:25 [kaz]
markV: what the common understanding is?
13:45:38 [kaz]
... switch from one browser to another
13:45:54 [kaz]
giuseppe: wondering if we should start with testing topic
13:46:23 [kaz]
markV: maybe we need liaison statement
13:46:53 [kaz]
kaz: who to send it?
13:47:01 [kaz]
markV: there is a list
13:47:07 [kaz]
... we can generate a few just now
13:47:30 [Dewa]
Dewa has joined #webtv
13:47:48 [kaz]
giuseppe: follow-up: contact external organization to get information about ongoing profiling activities
13:48:05 [a1zu]
a1zu has joined #webtv
13:48:19 [kaz]
... related to ongoing testing activity
13:48:36 [kaz]
... DLNA, DTG, HbbTV, OIPF, IPTV Forum Japan
13:48:59 [kaz]
... Smart TV Alliance
13:49:19 [a12u]
a12u has joined #webtv
13:49:39 [kaz]
... TTA
13:49:55 [kaz]
kaz: there was somebody from TTA at the Hollywood workshop
13:50:04 [kaz]
masahito: ITU as well :)
13:50:38 [kaz]
hj: does this mean we'll close the Profiling TF?
13:50:57 [matt]
TTA= Telecommunications Technology Association of Korea
13:51:06 [kaz]
giuseppe: we don't need a Task Force for this
13:51:41 [kaz]
markV: if we have official liaison we can use that
13:51:55 [kaz]
... and if not, we can contact them privately from the co-Chairs
13:52:06 [matt]
-> http://tta.kr/English/index.jsp TTA
13:52:16 [daniel]
daniel has joined #webtv
13:52:51 [kaz]
topic: HNTF followup
13:53:05 [kaz]
jcd: result of the work
13:53:23 [kaz]
... followup on the HNTF work
13:53:45 [kaz]
... Web Intents solution is enough?
13:53:56 [kaz]
... HNTF Requirements
13:54:08 [kaz]
... Discovery/Exposing services
13:54:09 [daniel]
daniel has joined #webtv
13:54:19 [kaz]
... Web Intents
13:54:24 [kaz]
... solution for discovery
13:54:45 [kaz]
... not do discovery itself but just passive registry
13:54:59 [kaz]
... Sony has extended UPnP
13:55:21 [kaz]
... and unmodified UPnP requriems proxy
13:55:32 [kaz]
s/requirems/requires/
13:55:42 [kaz]
... browser-locked
13:55:59 [kaz]
... not a standard way to provide extensions
13:56:13 [kaz]
... Actual problem
13:56:39 [kaz]
... define services distributed across devices communicating together
13:56:45 [kaz]
... multi screen
13:57:03 [kaz]
... two or more HTML WebApps find each other
13:57:20 [kaz]
... meaning exposing themselves to each other
13:57:28 [jcverdie]
jcverdie has joined #webtv
13:57:40 [kaz]
... Requirements of the scenarios
13:57:59 [kaz]
... Coverage of the requirements
13:58:42 [kaz]
... What's mising?
13:58:46 [kaz]
s/mising/missing/
13:58:59 [byungjung__]
byungjung__ has joined #webtv
13:59:06 [kaz]
... Interface for unmodified UPnP
13:59:17 [kaz]
... solution for today
13:59:30 [kaz]
... UPnP Proxy
14:00:20 [kaz]
... speak with the proxy using WebSocket
14:00:27 [kaz]
... Features of the solution
14:00:46 [kaz]
... My questions
14:00:58 [kaz]
... Is Web Intents the solution to our requirements: no
14:01:24 [kaz]
... If not, what can we do: push network service discovery/service advertisement?
14:01:58 [kaz]
... Can we organize some sort of HNTF lobby: had momentum within the IG
14:02:28 [kaz]
markV: some personal idea
14:03:05 [kaz]
... this can break firewall
14:03:22 [kaz]
... can have access to my home network
14:04:14 [kaz]
... there is a safe mechanism like Chrome
14:04:54 [kaz]
giuseppe: this could be done safely
14:05:13 [kaz]
... good to have discussion about this
14:05:25 [kaz]
... our requirements are not changed
14:05:35 [kaz]
... still should try to exprore
14:05:47 [kaz]
... within the Web Intents TF
14:05:53 [fwatanabe]
fwatanabe has joined #webtv
14:07:27 [kaz]
dsinger: how do we get two Web applications to talk with each other?
14:07:39 [noriya2]
noriya2 has joined #webtv
14:07:47 [kaz]
giuseppe: comments?
14:08:04 [kaz]
... should bring the ideas to the DAP WG as well
14:08:55 [kaz]
jcd: 10-15 people to generate the requirement doc, but just a few people to discuss it within DAP
14:09:49 [kaz]
topic: Stereoscopic 3D Web
14:10:01 [kaz]
dong-young: background
14:10:18 [kaz]
... stereoscopic 3D devices are widely available
14:10:32 [kaz]
... TV, laptop, monitor, phone, camera, ...
14:10:42 [kaz]
... but no standards
14:10:58 [kaz]
... Use cases
14:11:58 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:11:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html kaz
14:12:51 [kaz]
... Things to do
14:13:03 [kaz]
... identify and prioritize use cases
14:13:27 [kaz]
... specs to enable stereoscopic 3D
14:13:45 [kaz]
... minimal extensions
14:14:16 [matt]
scribe: Matt
14:14:19 [matt]
scribenick: matt
14:14:33 [matt]
dong-young: This is the end of my presentation. What do you think?
14:14:56 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: The video part is pretty well defined in other groups, it essentially comes down to a different codec standard. Not sure there are any extensions needed to support 3d video.
14:15:02 [matt]
giuseppe: Does the app need to know?
14:15:25 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: There are interactions, like if you do an overlay.
14:15:50 [matt]
Mark: The interaction, say with an html page with a 3d video, what's the z-level of the overlay.
14:16:10 [matt]
David: Even if you get a disparity in the difference of depth, things get nasty.
14:16:23 [matt]
giuseppe: So maybe there are some minimum extensions needed.
14:16:33 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: The app can be aware, or put, the video there.
14:16:52 [matt]
giuseppe: If you are just going to a stream though you don't know.
14:16:56 [matt]
giuseppe: The platform would know, but is there something the application can know.
14:17:11 [matt]
Mark_Vickers: There are things the app has to do in z-space, sure.
14:17:56 [sakkuru]
sakkuru has joined #webtv
14:18:04 [matt]
David: You want to be able to render things with some disparity, you don't want infinity, then there's the distance from the screen, or you give up on that like DVB and do pixel measurements -- it gets really thorny when you're using things like shutter glasses, what is the screen exactly?
14:18:40 [matt]
David: I've been talking with the CSS group about these measurements. CSS has been working on these things for years, "what does 1 inch mean?", it's easy to say when printed, but on a ballpark display.
14:18:54 [matt]
??: You do this by doing it as a percentage of the viewport.
14:19:05 [matt]
scribe: kaz
14:19:07 [matt]
scribenick: kaz
14:19:07 [kaz]
s/??:/pierre:/
14:19:36 [kaz]
markV: application has to know that stereoscopic 3d is available
14:19:47 [kaz]
... seems to me this is a good area
14:20:00 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #webtv
14:20:06 [kaz]
pierre: one possibility is captioning
14:20:18 [kaz]
... overwrapping with the 3d images
14:20:47 [kaz]
markV: all the decision will be made by the application once it turns into 3d mode
14:21:05 [kaz]
giuseppe: seems there is something to discuss
14:21:39 [kaz]
markV: could be a TF within the IG
14:22:20 [kaz]
giuseppe: TF: yes
14:22:46 [kaz]
... goals: investigate impact of 3D video/graphics on HTML and other Web standards
14:22:56 [kaz]
... chair: dong-young
14:23:40 [kaz]
topic: Synchronization of Web and TV content
14:25:21 [kaz]
sheau: shows slides
14:25:30 [kaz]
... Web&TV Media Synchronization
14:25:52 [kaz]
... multiple platform: broadcast, mobile, internet, etc.
14:26:04 [kaz]
... hybridization of media
14:26:31 [kaz]
... different component media travels over different distribution technology
14:27:04 [kaz]
... loosely coupled
14:27:37 [kaz]
... synchronization between these components is needed
14:28:11 [kaz]
... Use cases
14:28:48 [kaz]
... single client, multiple client, multi-client dynamically switch delivery technology
14:30:14 [Keiji]
Keiji has joined #webtv
14:30:38 [kaz]
... who initiates the switch?
14:31:10 [jcv]
jcv has joined #webtv
14:31:19 [kaz]
... any mechanism?
14:31:27 [kaz]
... Under development
14:31:30 [tomoyuki]
tomoyuki has joined #webtv
14:31:51 [kaz]
... digital fingerprint as ACR (Automatic Content Recognition
14:32:00 [kaz]
s/Recognition/Recognition)/
14:33:02 [kaz]
... 2 possibilities: receiver-content synchronization and retrieval standards, ACR content management and distribution standards
14:33:41 [kaz]
... seamless way to shift a client between unicast and broadcast
14:34:17 [kaz]
... What is ACR?
14:35:01 [kaz]
... class of technologies enables a connected device to make query to a remote database
14:35:28 [kaz]
... useful in markets where TV content is delivered to hybrid TV in baseband
14:35:33 [kaz]
... like HDMI
14:35:59 [kaz]
... What to standardize?
14:36:18 [kaz]
... data structure/format and control and command protocols
14:37:05 [kaz]
... need to support: identifiers, timing/signaling, protocol, use cases
14:37:23 [kaz]
[ break ]
14:37:31 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:37:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html kaz
14:39:32 [Shinji]
Shinji has joined #webtv
14:45:37 [tomoyuki]
tomoyuki has joined #webtv
14:51:41 [tokamoto]
tokamoto has joined #webtv
14:51:58 [a12u]
a12u has joined #webtv
14:57:43 [jcv]
jcv has joined #webtv
15:00:38 [kenji]
kenji has joined #webtv
15:02:56 [Takahiro]
Takahiro has joined #webtv
15:04:03 [a1zu]
a1zu has joined #webtv
15:04:19 [pal]
pal has joined #webtv
15:04:47 [manyoung]
manyoung has joined #webtv
15:04:57 [ph]
ph has joined #webtv
15:05:42 [kawada]
kawada has joined #webtv
15:05:46 [jiro]
jiro has joined #webtv
15:06:08 [kaz]
(continue)
15:06:10 [leetv]
leetv has joined #webtv
15:06:21 [shige]
shige has joined #webtv
15:06:27 [markw]
markw has joined #webtv
15:06:42 [kaz]
giuseppe: should we create a TF?
15:06:51 [naomi]
naomi has joined #webtv
15:07:06 [Comus]
Comus has joined #webtv
15:07:44 [Hyun]
Hyun has joined #webtv
15:07:46 [kaz]
... start with metadata discussion?
15:08:01 [kaz]
... start into the metadata TF
15:08:15 [sburr]
sburr has joined #webtv
15:08:17 [kaz]
markV: bunch of papers by universities
15:08:45 [kaz]
... do you feel like get combined with this?
15:08:52 [kaz]
dsinger: two kinds of sync
15:09:25 [kaz]
... showing slides with sound doesn't require strict sync like lip-sync apps
15:10:00 [kaz]
shea: second screen apps require frame accuracy
15:10:03 [noriya__]
noriya__ has joined #webtv
15:10:07 [Cyril]
Cyril has joined #webtv
15:10:31 [leetv2]
leetv2 has joined #webtv
15:10:38 [kaz]
giuseppe: add description to the metadata TF
15:11:23 [kaz]
yosuke: NHK from Japan also has that kind of stric sync
15:11:27 [kaz]
s/stric/strict/
15:11:33 [kaz]
matsumura: yes
15:11:37 [Cyril]
RRSAgent, pointer
15:11:37 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-irc#T15-11-37
15:11:45 [kaz]
... we have demos and prototypes
15:12:06 [kaz]
... my understanding is that that kind of sync could be done using some middleware software
15:12:18 [byungjung_]
byungjung_ has joined #webtv
15:12:26 [kaz]
... how W3C can handle that kind of softwares?
15:12:32 [kaz]
yosuke: the point is signaling
15:12:59 [kaz]
... what if we have an event model
15:13:06 [kaz]
giuseppe: assuming some pieces
15:13:41 [kaz]
topic: Accessibility/Subtitles/Captioning
15:13:51 [kaz]
olivier: languages for the Web
15:13:55 [kaz]
... TTML is a W3C REC
15:14:04 [kaz]
... a new WG has been created for a new version
15:14:12 [kaz]
... a CG looking at WebVTT
15:14:34 [kaz]
... this group could be quite key input on how to deal with number of scenarios
15:14:46 [slejeune]
slejeune has left #webtv
15:14:47 [kaz]
... industry has to say something
15:14:50 [jcdufourd]
jcdufourd has joined #webtv
15:15:08 [kaz]
markV: we get content coming in
15:15:28 [kaz]
... standardization using TTTML vs. WebVTT
15:16:02 [kaz]
... is there any good semantic mapping
15:16:07 [kaz]
olivier: there is some work
15:16:22 [kaz]
... at least provider-based
15:16:28 [kaz]
dsinger: think so
15:17:31 [kaz]
giuseppe: what can we do?
15:17:42 [kaz]
... you're charing WebVTT, Dave?
15:17:44 [kaz]
dsinger: yes
15:18:19 [kaz]
... useful if this IG could review the draft
15:18:26 [kaz]
s/draft/WebVTT draft/
15:18:49 [olivier]
Silvia Pfeiffer has a blog post working on the mapping
15:19:00 [slejeune]
slejeune has joined #webtv
15:19:02 [kaz]
markV: JavaScript API?
15:19:20 [kaz]
dsinger: TTML has a lot of features
15:20:08 [olivier]
(I assume what David was mentioning is http://www.w3.org/community/texttracks/wiki/608_to_WebVTT )
15:20:18 [jeff]
jeff has joined #webtv
15:20:22 [dsinger]
yes
15:21:55 [kaz]
giuseppe: Goals: Identify which pfofile of TTML people are using and feed it into the Text Track WG
15:22:14 [Dewa]
s/pfofile/profile/
15:22:58 [kaz]
pierre: there are already large body of TTML users
15:24:10 [kaz]
... on the other hand, WebVTT is getting energy
15:24:34 [Hyun]
Hyun has joined #webtv
15:24:52 [kaz]
giuseppe: (add "follow the effort in mapping between the TTML and WebVTT")
15:25:21 [olivier]
s/708/608/ in Giuseppe's slides
15:25:46 [kaz]
.. check 608 to WebVTT mapping document from Sylvia
15:27:15 [hitoshi]
hitoshi has joined #webtv
15:27:25 [kaz]
... collect the different TTML/SMPTE-TT based specs used by the industry into the TT group
15:28:00 [kaz]
... Should we create a TF?: Yes
15:28:24 [kaz]
masahito: what about FCC?
15:28:34 [kaz]
pierre: SMPTE
15:29:39 [kaz]
markV: we have a governmental requirement
15:29:43 [jcv]
jcv has joined #webtv
15:30:00 [kaz]
masahito: not Web in general
15:30:06 [kaz]
... broadcast related issue
15:30:24 [kaz]
... also related to Web accessibility?
15:30:42 [kaz]
pierre: TTML group?
15:30:51 [kaz]
markV: Text Track WG
15:31:00 [kaz]
pierre: WebVTT?
15:31:14 [kaz]
s/Text Track/Timed Text/
15:31:27 [kaz]
dsinger: Text Track CG
15:32:20 [kaz]
giuseppe: (moved "Try to define..." right after "Collect..."
15:32:30 [kaz]
s/"/")/
15:32:36 [byungjung_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:32:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html byungjung_
15:33:28 [kaz]
giuseppe: who should handle this?
15:33:52 [kaz]
pierre: will do
15:34:00 [kaz]
giuseppe: Chair: Pierre
15:34:44 [tpacbot]
tpacbot has joined #webtv
15:34:51 [pal]
s/Pierre/Pierre Lemieux/
15:34:51 [kaz]
topic: Parental Control
15:35:07 [kaz]
markV: wanted to talk caption issue, already covered
15:35:14 [kotakagi]
kotakagi has joined #webtv
15:35:18 [kaz]
topic: Guidelines for Web Developers
15:35:41 [acolwell]
acolwell has joined #webtv
15:35:42 [kaz]
giuseppe: cooperation with the other groups
15:36:12 [kaz]
... long-term effort
15:36:23 [kaz]
markV: originally started with requirements
15:36:45 [kaz]
ted: we can go through all the requirements
15:37:03 [jcverdie_]
jcverdie_ has joined #webtv
15:37:09 [kaz]
giuseppe: Do we need a TF: No
15:37:19 [kaz]
... ongoing effort of IG participants
15:37:28 [kaz]
... how do we cooperate?
15:37:34 [kaz]
markV: generate a list for this
15:37:42 [kaz]
ted: tracker?
15:38:00 [kaz]
giuseppe: who would like to handle this?
15:38:07 [kaz]
... What's the followup?
15:38:25 [kaz]
... can talk with the group guys
15:38:37 [kaz]
... we can do this offline
15:38:55 [kaz]
... Ping Ted
15:39:17 [kaz]
topic: ITU-T Liaison
15:39:31 [kaz]
masahito: this is the liaison statment
15:39:47 [kaz]
... actually sent to ECMA about the ECMAScript
15:40:11 [kaz]
... ITU-T is profiling ECMAScript
15:40:24 [kaz]
... because ECMA doesn't allow profiling
15:40:40 [kaz]
... ITU-based script
15:40:47 [kaz]
... note for the IG
15:41:06 [kaz]
giuseppe: forwarded to the IG member list
15:41:08 [noriya__]
noriya__ has joined #webtv
15:41:20 [hbang]
hbang has joined #WebTV
15:41:47 [kaz]
masahito: TC-39 is the profile of ECMAScript
15:42:35 [kaz]
... for interoperability you need to implement all the ECMAScript features
15:42:57 [kaz]
... and if want to add features, need to redefine whole profile
15:43:21 [kaz]
-> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-web-and-tv/2012Oct/att-0001/ls316_ECMAa.doc ITU-T Liaison Statement (Member Only)
15:43:38 [kaz]
masahito: they have a video object
15:43:59 [kaz]
markV: that would be a problem for W3C to add that?
15:44:09 [kaz]
masahito: that's why I'm sending this as a note
15:45:12 [JonathanJ]
JonathanJ has joined #webtv
15:45:16 [kaz]
markV: two issues
15:45:21 [kaz]
... 1 is more urgent
15:46:04 [kaz]
... if JavaScript includes video object, somebody should say "please don't do that"
15:46:19 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:46:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html JonathanJ
15:46:54 [kaz]
... the second issue is dependency
15:47:10 [kaz]
... but this is not ECMA but ITU-T. right?
15:47:14 [kaz]
masahito: yes
15:47:45 [kaz]
markV: should just define the video object outside ECMAScript
15:48:08 [kaz]
masahito: would be better not to do this?
15:48:18 [kaz]
markV: think so
15:48:54 [kaz]
dsinger: difficult for people to implement
15:49:10 [kaz]
giuseppe: should respond to ITU-T
15:49:54 [kaz]
masahito: they wanted to do something with video, and needed an object for it
15:50:27 [kaz]
giuseppe: masahito will generate draft response and markV will help it
15:50:40 [jeff]
jeff has joined #webtv
15:51:22 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:51:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html kaz
15:51:52 [kaz]
topic: Web and Broadcasting BG
15:52:07 [kaz]
yosuke: the first BG was oil/gas
15:52:17 [kaz]
... the second was this broadcasting BG
15:52:29 [kaz]
... and then the signage BG
15:52:57 [giles]
giles has joined #webtv
15:53:19 [jcverdie]
jcverdie has joined #webtv
15:53:34 [kaz]
... after getting input from broadcasters, we'll polish our requirements
15:53:54 [kaz]
... created the Web and Broadcasting BG in June, and had a f2f meeting
15:54:40 [kaz]
... currently most of the BG participants are from Japan
15:54:49 [kaz]
... BBC is also participating
15:55:10 [kaz]
... after the first f2f meeting, we created a wiki page
15:55:38 [kaz]
... would like to quickly introduce what we've done
15:55:50 [olivier]
(AFAIK there are a few other non-JP participants. PA is in there, for instance)
15:55:59 [kaz]
scribenick: giuseppe
15:56:39 [giuseppe]
yosuke: proposal about smarter integration of Broadcast and Web
15:56:56 [giuseppe]
... who broadcast and web should cooperate
15:57:57 [giuseppe]
something similar to Web Platform effort from W3C
15:58:12 [giuseppe]
s/something/... something/
15:59:00 [giuseppe]
... and can be integrate with web platform
15:59:23 [giuseppe]
... yosuke will propose it to the web platform during Wednesday plenary session
15:59:33 [giuseppe]
... if people are interested can contribute
16:00:01 [yosuke]
http://www.w3.org/community/webandbroadcasting/wiki/TowardsASmarterCombinationOfBroadcastingAndTheWeb
16:00:15 [Mark_Vickers]
Mark_Vickers has joined #webtv
16:00:21 [giuseppe]
yosuke: new topic is disaster and Media
16:01:25 [giuseppe]
... yosuke was planning to create a TF in the IG, but didn+t think there were enough expert/stakeholder in the IG
16:01:35 [giuseppe]
... so planning to involve more people during the plenary session
16:02:45 [giuseppe]
... aim is to identify which web standard can be used to support emergency notifications across devices
16:05:28 [giuseppe]
dsinger: don't think this is appropriate for web&tv
16:05:50 [giuseppe]
... people used to get this notification on tv because this was the only channel on
16:06:04 [giuseppe]
... now most people are connected to the internet
16:06:48 [giuseppe]
mark: there are laws that enforce the ability to provide a way to expose emergency notificatiuons
16:07:59 [hitoshi]
hitoshi has joined #webtv
16:09:25 [yosuke]
http://www.w3.org/community/webandbroadcasting/wiki/RepositoryOfExistingBusinessUseCasesForTVsWithSecondScreensThatEnrichProgramsAndCommercials
16:09:31 [giuseppe]
yosuke: bussiness use cases for tv and second screen
16:09:55 [giuseppe]
??: gives an overview of the use cases
16:10:06 [kaz]
s/??:/hirono:/
16:10:47 [giuseppe]
... two groups of use cases: 1) existing and common 2)new
16:12:34 [jcverdie]
jcverdie has joined #webtv
16:13:27 [giuseppe]
... (hirono describe different use cases from the link above)
16:16:21 [giuseppe]
yosuke: we thought that we need biz use cases before going into a technical discussion
16:16:33 [giuseppe]
... we will improve and add more and polish the document
16:17:01 [giuseppe]
... any group/SDO could check this list to see if their technology address these use cases
16:19:14 [yosuke]
http://www.w3.org/community/webandbroadcasting/wiki/F2F_meeting_-_29-30_Oct_2012_at_TPAC
16:20:48 [giuseppe]
yosuke: Media Presentation extensions
16:21:57 [giuseppe]
,,, we think ther is a need a better way of integrate html content with broadcast content
16:23:42 [giuseppe]
.. BG will polish these biz cases and try to follow-up on it in W3C
16:24:40 [giuseppe]
mark: you don't need extensions
16:24:55 [giuseppe]
markW: there are already mechnisms in HTML5
16:25:35 [giuseppe]
steve: I can confirm this, we are writing a container in HTML5 that cover these use cases
16:25:45 [giuseppe]
... by using iframes
16:26:59 [giuseppe]
shoan: should we have guidelines on how to do it in html5
16:27:06 [giuseppe]
?
16:27:52 [Dewa]
s/shoan/sheau/
16:30:10 [giuseppe]
yosuke: next topic is transport stream API
16:30:36 [giuseppe]
... express need of Broadcasters to deal with in-band resrouces inside the web browser
16:30:48 [jcverdie]
jcverdie has joined #webtv
16:30:49 [giuseppe]
... tis proposal focus on dynamic behaviour
16:31:07 [olivier]
http://www.w3.org/community/webandbroadcasting/wiki/images/3/37/Transport_stream_API.pdf
16:31:16 [giuseppe]
... e.g. changes in the transport stream
16:31:45 [giuseppe]
... browser should know when these changes happen and should be able to react and act on these changes
16:32:03 [giuseppe]
... s/react and act on /react to/
16:32:46 [Yoshihiro]
Yoshihiro has joined #webtv
16:33:03 [giuseppe]
... we need a generic interface to different kind of transport streams
16:33:22 [giuseppe]
... we can take 2 approaches to design this API: top down or bottom up
16:34:22 [giuseppe]
yosuke: opinion?
16:34:35 [ph]
ph has joined #webtv
16:34:53 [giuseppe]
yosuke: maybe related to metadata TF
16:35:01 [giuseppe]
we could follow-up there
16:35:10 [giuseppe]
s/we/... we/
16:36:32 [sburr]
sburr has joined #webtv
16:38:29 [giuseppe]
yosuke: last item is js library for next generation TV
16:39:21 [giuseppe]
... js library are considered as standard from web developers
16:39:50 [giuseppe]
... web standard provide lower level functionalities that js library use
16:41:15 [giuseppe]
... if we work on a js library, will be easier to provide functionalities for web developers without extending existing standards
16:41:24 [shoko]
http://www.w3.org/community/webandbroadcasting/wiki/images/4/4d/JS_library_for_next_generation_TV.pdf
16:41:49 [giuseppe]
... BG will start this work if anyone is interested you can join the BG, or we can move it to the IG
16:42:57 [giuseppe]
giuseppe: this is important but I don't think the IG have the expertise to work on this
16:43:42 [kaz]
scribenick: kaz
16:43:48 [kaz]
topic: wrapping-up
16:43:59 [kaz]
giuseppe: the current charter is expiring next month
16:44:07 [jeff]
jeff has joined #webtv
16:44:57 [kaz]
... topics and scope
16:45:08 [kaz]
... IG, CG, BG or TF?
16:45:16 [jcv]
jcv has joined #webtv
16:45:21 [kaz]
... requirements or specs?
16:45:30 [kaz]
... how to deal with liaisons?
16:46:29 [kaz]
... name of the IG?
16:47:22 [kaz]
giuseppe: first what kind of group should we get chartered?
16:49:56 [jcverdie]
Q+
16:50:05 [naomi]
naomi has joined #webtv
16:50:41 [olivier]
q+ jcverdie
16:50:51 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #webtv
16:50:53 [kaz]
markV: find problems of the Web platform to better fit TV services
16:50:54 [olivier]
q+ jcverdie
16:51:00 [kaz]
q?
16:51:34 [kaz]
masahito: media profile?
16:51:44 [olivier]
s/TV services/Media Applications/
16:52:35 [kaz]
markV: suggestion for the mission statment
16:53:02 [olivier]
"Improving the web platform for media applications"
16:53:47 [kaz]
- keep the name. generalize the mission (Media vs. TV)
16:54:16 [kaz]
- Mission: identify requirements for a better support of Media applications
16:55:38 [kaz]
sheau: still like the name "Web and TV"
16:56:09 [kaz]
markV: what about the mission text?
16:57:26 [kaz]
q+ matt
16:58:02 [kaz]
jcv: broadcasting represents billion of people who watch TV
16:58:23 [kaz]
markV: what about the mission text?
16:59:33 [kaz]
matt: we shouldn't care too much about the relationship between the name and the mission
17:00:58 [shan]
shan has joined #webtv
17:01:26 [matt]
[[i think the name should remain and the mission getting broader. Part of the attraction of this group is that people immediately know tv as a keyword that separates us from just a vague media label that may have not brought USDA
17:02:14 [matt]
S/USDA/us all together.]]/
17:04:39 [kaz]
all: should use "proposals to the WGs"
17:05:37 [kaz]
olivier: the question is membership
17:06:03 [kaz]
giuseppe: IG vs BG
17:06:47 [kaz]
jeff: this is the most successful IG
17:07:33 [kaz]
markV: we have this kind of f2f meeting, also had three workshops
17:08:17 [a12u]
a12u has joined #webtv
17:08:38 [kaz]
giuseppe: the list is public
17:08:43 [kaz]
markV: good point
17:09:15 [kaz]
... instead of creating a CG, we can just ask people to subscribe the public list
17:09:44 [kaz]
yosuke: BG/CG have a bit different IPR
17:10:15 [kaz]
giuseppe: we're fine with being an IG
17:11:12 [jcverdie]
jcverdie has joined #webtv
17:11:20 [kaz]
markV: this slide is a good summary
17:11:24 [kaz]
masahito: next step?
17:11:48 [kaz]
... by when should we finish the charter document?
17:11:58 [jeff]
jeff has joined #webtv
17:12:42 [kaz]
markV: we should include the TF moderators
17:12:55 [kaz]
masahito: how many TFs (and TF chairs)?
17:13:13 [kaz]
giuseppe: 6 and a half
17:13:34 [kaz]
masahito: who would generate the initial draft
17:13:43 [kaz]
hj: will do
17:13:58 [kaz]
s/draft/draft?/
17:14:15 [kaz]
jcv: breakout session on Wed
17:14:40 [kaz]
masahito: metadata
17:15:08 [kaz]
yosuke: disaster
17:15:12 [kaz]
tanaka: DRM
17:15:35 [kaz]
markV: two major topics on DRM (EME) for the HTML WG
17:15:57 [kaz]
... would encourage people to join the EME Tuesday calls
17:18:02 [kaz]
masahito: Extended DRM requirements for content distribution breakout on Wednesday
17:18:38 [kaz]
markV: we need people attend the calls :)
17:18:54 [kaz]
... find right person in your company
17:19:11 [kaz]
masahito: tomorrow the Web and Broadcasting BG will meet
17:19:30 [kaz]
markV: testing group?
17:19:38 [kaz]
giuseppe: a breakout session on Wed
17:19:41 [giuseppe]
giuseppe has left #webtv
17:20:47 [a1zu]
a1zu has joined #webtv
17:26:05 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:26:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html kaz
17:26:17 [kaz]
[ adjourned ]
17:26:18 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:26:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html kaz
17:28:11 [Veronica]
Veronica has joined #webtv
17:32:10 [glenn]
glenn has joined #webtv
17:33:22 [Alan]
Alan has joined #webtv
18:00:41 [trackbot]
trackbot has joined #webtv
18:03:16 [pal]
pal has joined #webtv
18:07:34 [Alan]
Alan has left #webtv
18:17:41 [pal_]
pal_ has joined #webtv
18:52:51 [pal_]
pal_ has joined #webtv
20:37:12 [ph]
ph has joined #webtv
20:44:43 [glenn]
glenn has joined #webtv
21:37:49 [tomoyuki]
tomoyuki has joined #webtv
21:37:59 [tokamoto]
tokamoto has joined #webtv
21:48:24 [shige]
shige has joined #webtv
21:56:54 [giuseppe]
giuseppe has joined #webtv
22:01:23 [giuseppe]
giuseppe has left #webtv
22:27:23 [ph]
ph has joined #webtv
22:31:40 [glenn]
glenn has joined #webtv
22:47:08 [tpacbot]
tpacbot has joined #webtv
22:48:27 [naomi]
naomi has joined #webtv