IRC log of webapps on 2012-10-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:56:00 [RRSAgent]
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07:56:00 [RRSAgent]
logging to
07:56:19 [zcorpan]
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07:56:36 [ArtB]
Meeting: WebApps f2f Meeting
07:56:41 [ArtB]
Date: 29 October 2012
07:56:50 [ArtB]
Chair: Art, Charles
07:56:55 [ArtB]
Scribe: Josh
07:57:01 [ArtB]
ScribeNick: timeless
07:57:11 [timeless]
timeless has changed the topic to: #webapps
07:57:23 [timeless]
timeless has changed the topic to: #webapps TPAC 2012 WebApps F2F
07:57:29 [ArtB]
07:57:35 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
07:57:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
07:57:37 [ArtB]
Present: Art_Barstow
07:57:39 [adrianba]
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07:57:51 [timeless]
present+ timeless
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07:58:18 [timeless]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:58:21 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
07:58:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
07:58:24 [tobie]
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07:58:40 [timeless]
s/present+ timeless/present+ Josh_Soref/
07:58:44 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
07:58:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
07:59:10 [bryan]
present+ Bryan_Sullivan
07:59:10 [timeless]
s/Scribe: Josh/Scribe: Josh_Soref/
07:59:14 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
07:59:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
07:59:32 [npdoty]
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08:00:27 [Yoshihiro]
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08:00:54 [odinho_]
present+ Odin_Hoerthe_Omdal
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08:01:25 [aklein]
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08:01:59 [chaals]
Present+ chaals
08:02:08 [jaubourg]
present+ Julian_Aubourg
08:02:16 [takoratta]
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08:02:24 [aklein]
present+ Adam_Klein
08:02:58 [takuya]
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08:03:05 [bhu4]
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08:03:27 [timeless]
topic: Introductions
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08:03:37 [jgraham]
present+ jgraham
08:03:52 [timeless]
chaals: welcome to webapps, everybody
08:03:53 [timeless]
[ Applause ]
08:04:01 [timeless]
ArtB: we're happy to be here
08:04:02 [Oh]
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08:04:07 [zcorpan]
present+ zcorpan
08:04:13 [timeless]
chaals: in IETF, they have the hum, we get the W3C clap
08:04:20 [timeless]
... this is a big meeting
08:04:30 [rafaelw]
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08:04:32 [timeless]
... we're going to be really strict about making you Join Queues
08:04:36 [timeless]
... and use the microphone
08:04:44 [timeless]
... I'm Charles
08:04:53 [timeless]
... the first thing i'm going to do is ask everyone to introduce themselves
08:05:08 [timeless]
... say who you are, where you work, and if you have any particular spec that interests you
08:05:19 [timeless]
... I'm Charles, I work for Yandex, i'm interested in just about everything
08:05:37 [timeless]
shepazu: I'm Doug Sheppers, I'm one of 2 w3c staff contacts
08:05:52 [timeless]
krisk: Kris, Microsoft, testing
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08:06:14 [tlr]
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08:06:29 [paul]
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08:06:37 [adrianba]
Present+ adrianba
08:06:42 [timeless]
adrianba: Adrian Bateman, Microsoft, I'm interested
08:06:46 [pbakaus]
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08:06:56 [Bo_Chen]
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08:06:58 [timeless]
BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM: Bo Hu, China Unicom, i'm interested in Push API
08:07:19 [timeless]
Bo_Chen: Bo Chen, China Unicom, i'm interested in this WG and related groups
08:07:30 [Yuan]
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08:07:35 [timeless]
ArtB: Art Barstow, Co-chair with chaals, Nokia, all specs
08:07:52 [npdoty]
timeless: Josh Soren, from RIM, not yet a member of the WG
08:08:02 [shepazu]
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08:08:08 [timeless]
pbakaus: Paul Bakaus, XXX, YYY
08:08:19 [timeless]
sicking: Jonas Sicking, Mozilla, all specs
08:08:19 [npdoty]
from Zynga, everything that helps games
08:08:29 [npdoty]
08:08:37 [npdoty]
s/YYY/everything that helps games/
08:08:44 [sgodard]
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08:08:46 [timeless]
jaubourg: Julian Bourg, AAA
08:08:54 [hallvord]
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08:08:56 [timeless]
mklein: BBB, Google
08:09:07 [timeless]
rafaelw: Rafael W, Google, CCC
08:09:20 [timeless]
DDD: DDE, Intel, processors
08:09:24 [npdoty]
s/AAA/jQuery Foundation, interested in the Web/
08:09:24 [jfmoy]
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08:09:26 [shepazu]
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08:09:27 [timeless]
Yuan: Yuan, Nokia, everything
08:09:40 [timeless]
EEE: EEF, Google, DOM Specs
08:09:41 [tlr]
s/DDE/Wayne Carr/
08:09:45 [timeless]
08:09:51 [timeless]
08:09:57 [rotsuya]
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08:10:02 [timeless]
HHH: HHI, Google, Web Components
08:10:12 [timeless]
08:10:22 [shan]
present+ Soonbo_Han
08:10:23 [timeless]
shan: Soon bo han
08:10:38 [nkic]
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08:10:47 [morrita]
08:10:51 [haraken]
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08:10:56 [timeless]
KKK: KKL, Opera
08:11:00 [wseltzer]
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08:11:02 [timeless]
08:11:03 [takuya]
tatakuya from Google. IME API
08:11:08 [bryan]
Bryan Sullivan from AT&T, co-editing the Push API spec, AC rep, interested in most specs but especially storage specs and File* specs
08:11:11 [timeless]
odinho_: Odin, Opera, OOO
08:11:19 [timeless]
LLL: LLM, Opera
08:11:29 [jgraham]
jgraham: James Graham, Opera
08:11:29 [KenjiBX]
KenjiBX ; Kenji Baheux ; Google ; general interest in WebApps spec ; particular interest in proposed IME API.
08:11:32 [shan]
s/Soon bo/Soonbo/
08:11:32 [haraken]
haraken from Google. DOM specs.
08:11:33 [timeless]
bryan: bryan Sullivan, AT&T AC Rep, MM
08:11:35 [sicking]
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08:11:47 [timeless]
paul: Paul Cotton, Microsoft, HTML co-chair
08:11:54 [aklein]
s/BBB/Adam Klein/
08:11:55 [timeless]
08:11:58 [Shinji]
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08:12:03 [tleithea]
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08:12:11 [timeless]
yoske: QQQ
08:12:11 [Lachy]
s/LLL: LLM, Opera/Lachlan Hunt, Opera, editor of Selectors API/
08:12:13 [odinho_]
s/OOO/interest in most specs, but listens most carefully for IndexedDB atm/
08:12:21 [timeless]
08:12:28 [timeless]
08:12:35 [efullea]
efullea: Eduardo Fullea, co-editing Push API spec
08:12:37 [shan]
s/Soonbo/Soonbo from LGE/
08:12:40 [MagnusOlsson]
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08:12:41 [timeless]
tomoyuki: SSU
08:12:46 [timeless]
08:12:52 [efullea]
efullea: Eduardo Fullea, Telefonica, co-editing Push API spec
08:12:57 [timeless]
amirabella: Amira Bella, CDE
08:12:57 [Oh]
Jong Soo Oh, LGE
08:12:58 [rsleevi]
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08:13:07 [timeless]
wseltzer: Wendy Seltzter, W3C
08:13:10 [Travis]
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08:13:14 [amirabella]
s/Amira Bella, CDE/Anthony Mirabella, Synacor
08:13:16 [timeless]
08:13:24 [amirabella]
s/Amira Bella, CDE/Anthony Mirabella, Synacor/
08:13:26 [tomoyuki]
s/SSU/Tomoyuki from KDDI, Japan/
08:13:27 [wseltzer]
08:13:27 [timeless]
08:13:31 [timeless]
08:13:36 [a12u]
Hiroyuki Aizu, TOSHIBA , interested in Web components and WebIntents
08:13:39 [timeless]
jfmoy: CDM
08:13:50 [timeless]
08:14:06 [npdoty]
s/CDF/christine runnegar/
08:14:07 [timeless]
08:14:12 [krisk] site is down...known issue w3c staff working on this...
08:14:14 [jfmoy]
s/CDM/France Telecom
08:14:19 [npdoty]
s/CDG/Internet Society, Privacy Interest Group, Provenance WG/
08:14:27 [mjs]
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08:14:52 [timeless]
Travis: Travis Leithead, Microsoft
08:14:57 [timeless]
chaals: so, now you've forgotten everyone's name
08:15:02 [kotakagi]
s/SSS/Koichi Takagi/
08:15:05 [timeless]
... please say your name before speaking
08:15:13 [christine]
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08:15:24 [kotakagi]
s/SST/KDDI, Japan/
08:15:39 [odinho_]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:15:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate odinho_
08:15:52 [timeless]
... scribe has certainly forgotten your name
08:15:55 [bradeeoh]
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08:15:55 [timeless]
topic: Agenda Bashing
08:16:02 [rotsuya_]
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08:16:12 [timeless]
chaals: i'm going to try to break the agenda into blocks of less than an hour
08:16:19 [timeless]
... so we can have short breaks of 5-10 minutes
08:16:27 [timeless]
... trying to talk (or scribe) for 2-3 hours is a bad idea
08:16:34 [hallvord]
If my introduction wasn't logged, here it is: Hallvord R. M. Steen, Opera Software, XMLHttpRequest co-editor / Clipboard Events editor
08:16:35 [bryan]
anyone else having issues with the W3C wiki server?
08:16:41 [timeless]
... items: webidl
08:16:43 [timeless]
... streams
08:16:51 [timeless]
... input method
08:16:53 [timeless]
... push api
08:16:57 [sgodard]
No access to W3C wiki server :(
08:16:58 [timeless]
... indexdb
08:17:05 [krisk]
yes site has issues (timesout)...staff working to resolve
08:17:09 [timeless]
... web intents
08:17:16 [sicking]
08:17:16 [timeless]
... will be tomorrow afternoon just before 5
08:17:32 [timeless]
... web components (shadow dom, templates) is set for 3:45pm today
08:17:43 [timeless]
... i'm presuming we have people dialing in for that (i.e. fixed time)
08:17:59 [timeless]
... file api, 4:45pm today (again, people dialing in, fixed time slot)
08:18:09 [timeless]
... does anyone have a topic that is not on that list?
08:18:10 [plh]
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08:18:13 [timeless]
... that you'd like discussed
08:18:26 [timeless]
bryan: i'd like to take push api today (before file), or tomorrow morning
08:18:33 [timeless]
... like 3pm?
08:18:37 [timeless]
chaals: objections?
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08:18:39 [timeless]
[ done ]
08:18:44 [timeless]
08:18:55 [timeless]
shepazu: webidl is a pretty long discussion
08:19:03 [timeless]
... i think we should revisit it later in the day
08:19:08 [waynecarr]
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08:19:11 [timeless]
chaals: so split it into two sessions?
08:19:19 [timeless]
... Travis , i think you have a guy on the hook for that
08:19:26 [timeless]
ArtB: plh , you should be here for that
08:19:30 [timeless]
... do you have time constraints?
08:19:35 [timeless]
plh: don't put it tomorrow afternoon
08:19:48 [timeless]
chaals: web idl next, and then revisit after lunch
08:20:10 [timeless]
shepazu: i'd like to touch base w/ heycam, so tomorrow morning
08:20:18 [timeless]
chaals: streams, time constraints?
08:20:50 [timeless]
chaals: streams will be merged file api discussion this afternoon
08:21:01 [timeless]
chaals: IME... anytime
08:21:30 [kensaku_]
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08:21:35 [timeless]
... process, web idl-1, ime, indexeddb
08:21:39 [timeless]
... as time allows
08:21:59 [timeless]
takuya: i'd like to push IME to this afternoon or tomorrow
08:22:04 [timeless]
chaals: tomorrow morning
08:22:07 [timeless]
... webidl-2, ime
08:22:18 [timeless]
mjs: Macie, Apple
08:22:27 [timeless]
... there's been discussion on the ML about File System API
08:22:35 [timeless]
... either taking it off standards track
08:22:37 [timeless]
... or...
08:22:46 [timeless]
chaals: i expect it to be part of the file api discussion
08:22:51 [timeless]
... i'll toss in a topic
08:23:02 [timeless]
... i think we should look at AppCache, Offline Applications, ... mess
08:23:08 [timeless]
... html wg has AppCache in their spec
08:23:11 [timeless]
... everyone hates it
08:23:22 [timeless]
... either because they've implemented it
08:23:38 [timeless]
... we have a proposal from Mozilla for packaging applications using JSON instead of XML
08:23:46 [timeless]
... all of this deals w/ using applications offline
08:23:53 [timeless]
Lachy: lachlan, Opera,
08:23:54 [mjs]
08:24:05 [npdoty]
+1 on talking about all of these offline questions at once
08:24:06 [timeless]
... when we do Selectors, can we cover Selectors api 2?
08:24:06 [bryan]
+1 to manifest discussion and appcache
08:24:21 [timeless]
... we'll have a chance to repeat this process tomorrow
08:24:34 [timeless]
... if you've forgotten to mention something, that's bad, but we can fix tomorrow
08:24:42 [timeless]
... we have a small handful of process things
08:24:51 [timeless]
... if you want to talk about how w3c process works/how it should be changed
08:24:54 [timeless]
... this isn't the venue
08:24:56 [timeless]
... we don't care
08:25:11 [timeless]
... w3c has a CG for that
08:25:18 [timeless]
... right now we work w/ the process we get
08:25:24 [timeless]
... in walks anne
08:25:36 [timeless]
... our goal is to get docs to REC
08:25:36 [sgodard]
ArtB, it's not just you
08:25:45 [timeless]
... there's a handful of documents we're trying to step through that
08:25:54 [timeless]
... Selectors API 1, Widget Update
08:26:01 [timeless]
... there's a set of docs where we need editors
08:26:05 [timeless]
topic: Selectors
08:26:13 [timeless]
chaals: we have a specification for Selectors Level 1
08:26:21 [timeless]
... we have a test suite, recently revices
08:26:25 [timeless]
08:26:35 [sakih]
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08:26:37 [timeless]
... there was a CfC to move to PR
08:26:50 [timeless]
... the normal process is we say does everyone agree to move along
08:26:56 [timeless]
... we prefer positive responses
08:27:02 [timeless]
... there was only one response
08:27:08 [timeless]
... did anyone want to speak?
08:27:11 [aizu]
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08:27:11 [timeless]
[ No one ]
08:27:19 [timeless]
chaals: Lachy changed the test suite
08:27:23 [timeless]
... did anyone review it?
08:27:27 [timeless]
Lachy: i rewrote the test suite
08:27:33 [timeless]
... the old one was full of bugs
08:27:40 [timeless]
... and wasn't revealing bugs in implementations
08:27:48 [timeless]
... i rewrote it, it now shows bugs
08:27:54 [timeless]
... on the spec, i removed hasFeature()
08:28:02 [virginie_galindo]
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08:28:03 [timeless]
... it's now irrelevant from the latest DOM spec
08:28:11 [timeless]
chaals: we think Selectors API level 1 is ready to go
08:28:21 [timeless]
... we can declare victory as soon as we've filled in the boxes/forms/done the process
08:28:35 [timeless]
topic: Widget Updates
08:28:41 [timeless]
chaals: widget updates has sat around for a while
08:28:46 [timeless]
... in a PAG for a while
08:29:00 [timeless]
... there are a couple of implementations
08:29:08 [timeless]
... i'm curious to know if there are more implementations
08:29:16 [timeless]
... Opera has an implementation shipping
08:29:17 [Lachy]
Selectors API Testsuite: (Level 1 tests need review, level 2 is a work in progress.)
08:29:20 [timeless]
... with a backend
08:29:27 [timeless]
... Apache has an implementation
08:29:35 [heycam]
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08:30:08 [timeless]
sakari: the Tizen project has implemented it
08:30:25 [timeless]
sebastian: we use it
08:30:26 [shan]
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08:30:45 [timeless]
chaals: objections to moving it forward?
08:30:46 [timeless]
[ None ]
08:30:53 [tmpsantos]
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08:31:05 [timeless]
topic: editor orphaned specifications
08:31:09 [timeless]
chaals: DOM4, URL Spec
08:31:17 [ArtB]
ACTION: Charles start the process to move Widget Updates to Candidate Recommendation
08:31:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-664 - Start the process to move Widget Updates to Candidate Recommendation [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2012-11-05].
08:31:20 [timeless]
... we're committed atm to do them
08:31:24 [timeless]
... there's someone working on these things
08:31:38 [timeless]
... it would be interested to know what his perspective is
08:31:39 [edoyle]
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08:31:49 [timeless]
anne: i'm moving them forward
08:31:55 [timeless]
chaals: but you're not doing them in w3c
08:31:58 [timeless]
anne: that's correct
08:32:16 [timeless]
... i'm talking with w3 shortly
08:32:21 [timeless]
... about being an invited expert
08:32:32 [timeless]
chaals: our current perspective is that we'd like an editor for DOM4
08:32:49 [timeless]
Lachy: i might be able to be an editor for dom4
08:32:52 [b310]
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08:32:52 [timeless]
chaals: url?
08:32:56 [timeless]
... URL isn't a very big spec
08:33:02 [timeless]
... you can copy+paste what anne does
08:33:05 [timeless]
... put your name on it
08:33:08 [timeless]
... become famous
08:33:12 [timeless]
... it's really easy
08:33:29 [timeless]
ArtB: fame and fortune will follow
08:33:34 [timeless]
shepazu: guaranteed
08:33:47 [timeless]
ArtB: if you don't want to volunteer publicly, that's fine, talk to chaals or ArtB
08:34:02 [timeless]
chaals: Progress APIs is more or less done
08:34:17 [timeless]
... volunteer to do that spec
08:34:18 [mjs]
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08:34:24 [timeless]
... shepazu will thank you
08:34:29 [timeless]
08:34:37 [timeless]
... XMLHttpRequest
08:34:44 [timeless]
i/XML/Topic: XHR/
08:34:51 [dom]
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08:35:11 [heycam]
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08:35:20 [timeless]
hallvord: we think the spec is pretty feature complete
08:35:31 [timeless]
... we're trying to get overview of test coverage
08:35:37 [krisk]
Microsoft submitted some more tests for XHR
08:35:41 [timeless]
... and the changes anne has done to the spec
08:35:48 [timeless]
jaubourg: that pretty much covers it
08:35:56 [timeless]
chaals: are there significant changes to the spec?
08:36:01 [timeless]
anne: progress was ported in
08:36:10 [timeless]
... it was aligned with refersrc in html
08:36:42 [annevk]
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08:36:52 [odinho_] <- XHR spec annevk
08:36:52 [timeless]
08:36:57 [annevk] AnonXMLHttpRequest -> XMLHttpRequest(anon=true)
08:37:08 [annevk]
308 is now mentioned
08:37:09 [timeless]
s/https/-> https/
08:37:15 [adrianba]
q+ to ask about Stream
08:37:18 [timeless]
08:37:21 [annevk]
Encoding Standard is integrated
08:37:22 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:37:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
08:37:23 [jgraham] has urla nd dom also
08:37:28 [annevk]
user/password are now always okay
08:37:31 [timeless]
hallvord: i think there's some work for mapping
08:37:34 [timeless]
... and then try to ship it
08:37:44 [timeless]
... the main work is test coverage/mapping implementation
08:37:46 [SimonPieters]
s/urla nd/url and/
08:37:48 [timeless]
... and trying to ship the spec
08:37:53 [timeless]
annevk: there's a few more things
08:37:59 [timeless]
... canceling the send/abort algorithms
08:38:04 [timeless]
... needs to be rewritten to use a flag
08:38:10 [timeless]
... the current way doesn't work
08:38:21 [timeless]
... you always want to dispatch certain events
08:38:30 [timeless]
... it needs to be updated to use the url standard
08:38:37 [timeless]
... to reference things with spaces in them
08:38:44 [timeless]
... and we need to write tests for these conditions
08:38:54 [MagnusOlsson]
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08:38:54 [timeless]
chaals: should you be able to play around w/ various headers
08:39:01 [timeless]
... lots of people wanted to be able to add/change the UA header
08:39:06 [timeless]
... we ended up not making a chance
08:39:09 [timeless]
08:39:10 [shan]
s/Soonbo from LGE han/Soonbo Han from LGE/
08:39:20 [timeless]
hallvord: we're still trying to figure out if we'll make a decision
08:39:25 [odinho_]
s/KKL/Simon Pieters/
08:39:27 [timeless]
chaals: there are people who want to be able to change it
08:39:39 [timeless]
sicking: there's also the AnonXMLHttpRequest constructor
08:39:45 [timeless]
... i don't think it's been implemented
08:39:51 [timeless]
... we've proposed an alternate syntax
08:39:55 [odinho_]
08:39:56 [Norbert_]
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08:39:57 [timeless]
... that also allows for http headers
08:40:02 [adrianba]
08:40:16 [timeless]
hallvord: that's one of the things to pick annevk 's brain
08:40:16 [sakkuru_]
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08:40:22 [timeless]
ack adrianba
08:40:22 [Zakim]
adrianba, you wanted to ask about Stream
08:40:27 [jeff]
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08:40:32 [timeless]
adrianba: annevk did some changes recently
08:40:36 [timeless]
... for accessing Streams
08:40:38 [hallvord_]
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08:40:40 [timeless]
... we're specifically interested in
08:40:47 [timeless]
... for the new media specs in the HTML WG
08:40:52 [manyoung]
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08:40:52 [timeless]
... we could talk a bit more about this under stream
08:40:59 [timeless]
... but we'd like to talk about that a bit more here
08:41:10 [timeless]
odinho_: Opera implements AnonXMLHttpRequest
08:41:14 [timeless]
... but we have no problem changing it
08:41:20 [timeless]
... we like the new proposal better
08:41:23 [npdoty]
q+ hallvord_
08:41:24 [timeless]
... so it won't be a problem
08:41:31 [timeless]
chaals: thanks SK telecom
08:41:38 [timeless]
... who made a commitment for RF
08:41:39 [npdoty]
ack hallvord_
08:41:43 [timeless]
hallvord_: on streams
08:41:49 [timeless]
... i guess we could put that in the next version
08:41:54 [timeless]
... since we want to ship this spec
08:42:01 [timeless]
... no one's implemented that
08:42:06 [timeless]
... so i hope it's possible to defer that
08:42:08 [odinho_]
ack odinho
08:42:11 [dom]
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08:42:13 [timeless]
adrianba: we implemented and shipped it in ie10
08:42:15 [timeless]
... with a prefix
08:42:24 [timeless]
... i'm fine with deferring it
08:42:31 [timeless]
... provided it's written somewhere that we can reference
08:42:38 [timeless]
chaals: was that you volunteering to write it?
08:42:43 [timeless]
adrianba: i didn't hear that
08:42:45 [timeless]
... but sure
08:42:48 [timeless]
chaals: he agreed
08:42:54 [timeless]
... xhr level 2
08:43:08 [plh]
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08:43:18 [timeless]
... the plan is to get the one we have finished
08:43:22 [timeless]
... and then work on the next one
08:43:29 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:43:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
08:44:03 [adrianba]
08:44:11 [timeless]
topic: Pub Status
08:44:14 [timeless]
08:44:53 [sgodard]
+1 is ok now
08:45:08 [timeless]
ArtB: are the webappsec folks here?
08:45:13 [odinho_]
08:45:31 [timeless]
tlr: my recollection is that BradH is driving this
08:45:35 [timeless]
... trying to get it ready
08:45:42 [timeless]
... bradh is in the room here
08:45:47 [odinho_]
ack odinho
08:45:47 [annevk]
(latest commit to CORS is mine...)
08:45:49 [timeless]
chaals: my memory is they're LC/CR
08:45:55 [annevk]
(W3C CORS that is)
08:45:59 [timeless]
tlr: it's LC, comment period has closed
08:46:00 [Wonsuk]
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08:46:05 [timeless]
... think we have an email for one issue
08:46:12 [timeless]
chaals: Clipboard
08:46:13 [Wonsuk]
Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
08:46:38 [timeless]
hallvord_: it's something i should get back to
08:46:45 [timeless]
chaals: anyone want to assist
08:46:57 [timeless]
hallvord_: i think the remaining issue is onbefore*
08:46:57 [npdoty]
webappsec is meeting Thursday/Friday, fyi
08:47:05 [timeless]
... for integrating copy with native browser
08:47:07 [tlr]
on CORS:
08:47:16 [annevk]
WHATWG CORS had a few changes:
08:47:18 [timeless]
... i have a request from university of geneva
08:47:23 [timeless]
... i was considering ducking it
08:47:31 [timeless]
... but chromium was interesting
08:47:31 [tlr]
avk, do you know if Brad was tracking these?
08:47:33 [annevk]
to account for 308, some typos, Referer control
08:47:38 [timeless]
chaals: we'll use them in yandex
08:47:44 [annevk]
tlr: no commits have been made to the W3C copy for 4 months
08:47:45 [timeless]
ArtB: so we're one feature/issue from LC
08:47:48 [timeless]
hallvord_: sort of
08:47:57 [timeless]
... one feature is missing
08:48:03 [timeless]
... there's some text about security
08:48:05 [tlr]
what's the nature of your changes?
08:48:08 [timeless]
... and cleaning up of content
08:48:15 [timeless]
... which we should remove
08:48:19 [timeless]
... perhaps it isn't necessary
08:48:27 [timeless]
ArtB: if people want to see that spec move forward
08:48:31 [timeless]
... they should submit comments
08:48:37 [MikeSmith]
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08:48:39 [timeless]
hallvord_: one issue to add, one to remove
08:48:48 [timeless]
chaals: if people are worried about security, look at it, scream
08:48:50 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
08:48:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
08:48:58 [timeless]
chaals: DOM4
08:49:02 [timeless]
... we're looking for an editor
08:49:14 [npdoty]
does someone want to chat over coffee about Clipboard and security/privacy?
08:49:27 [timeless]
... dom level 3 events
08:49:34 [timeless]
Travis: dom level 3 events is
08:49:40 [timeless]
... has exited its second LC
08:49:46 [timeless]
... 30 of September
08:49:49 [jcverdie]
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08:49:51 [timeless]
... there were a short number of LC comments
08:49:53 [timeless]
... 7 or 8
08:49:57 [timeless]
... recorded in a DoC
08:50:07 [timeless]
... i think the majority of those comments have been addressed
08:50:13 [dgrogan_cloud]
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08:50:14 [timeless]
... in comments or email
08:50:24 [timeless]
chaals: people have been asking for features
08:50:28 [timeless]
... but that should be dom4
08:50:32 [timeless]
Travis: to continue
08:50:43 [timeless]
... i'd like to transition those to dom level 4 events
08:50:54 [timeless]
... to allow the mind share to continue to progress
08:50:59 [timeless]
... while we step aside and lock down dom 3 events
08:51:00 [pbakaus]
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08:51:09 [timeless]
... i'd like to propose that we organize those features into a separate document
08:51:14 [timeless]
... and publish that as FPWD
08:51:15 [hallvord_]
event.key is still a problem child, authors trying to use it have been complaining both to me and on the mailing list
08:51:17 [timeless]
... i can take an action
08:51:24 [timeless]
... next step for D3E
08:51:29 [timeless]
... is move to CR
08:51:33 [ArtB]
ACTION: Travis create an ED of DOM4 Events
08:51:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-665 - Create an ED of DOM4 Events [on Travis Leithead - due 2012-11-05].
08:51:49 [timeless]
chaals: dom parsing and serialization
08:51:52 [timeless]
Travis: also me
08:51:54 [ArtB]
ACTION: Barstow work with Travis on a CfC for DOM3 Events Candidate
08:51:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-666 - Work with Travis on a CfC for DOM3 Events Candidate [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-05].
08:51:57 [timeless]
... i'm c+p from ms2ger
08:52:01 [timeless]
... that's the status
08:52:12 [hallvord_]
(should I ask for the mike and comment even if I've "said" something on IRC?)
08:52:14 [timeless]
chaals: file stuff we'll talk about this afternoon
08:52:23 [timeless]
... fullscreen
08:52:28 [timeless]
... we sort of have an editor
08:52:37 [timeless]
... tantek, he's in CSS, it's a joint deliverable
08:52:44 [npdoty]
08:52:45 [npdoty]
08:52:46 [timeless]
... i believe that if we bribe him, he'll produce drafts
08:52:53 [timeless]
... gamepad
08:52:57 [timeless]
... any editors here?
08:53:04 [spoussa]
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08:53:25 [timeless]
... html templates, indexeddb, ime,
08:53:50 [timeless]
... webidl
08:53:53 [kotakagi]
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08:53:57 [heycam]
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08:54:12 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
08:54:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
08:54:15 [yune]
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08:54:18 [timeless]
chaals: heycam, where is java bindings for webidl?
08:54:33 [timeless]
chaals: pointer lock, progress events
08:54:35 [heycam]
08:54:42 [timeless]
... push api for later
08:54:54 [timeless]
... is the quota management editor here?
08:55:04 [timeless]
... server sent events?
08:55:09 [odinho_]
08:55:10 [timeless]
ArtB: server sent events LC published last week
08:55:10 [heycam]
I have kept the Java bindings document up to date with Web IDL, but I expect just to publish it as a note for curiosity at some point.
08:55:13 [timeless]
... two more weeks of review
08:55:20 [takuya]
For Quota, I can follow up with its editor (Kinuko) later.
08:55:22 [timeless]
... if we have no major issues raised
08:55:31 [timeless]
... we can move forward
08:55:35 [Jungkee]
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08:55:37 [Jungkee]
Present+ Jungkee_Song
08:55:40 [timeless]
... we need a test facilitator
08:55:43 [timeless]
... i know there are tests from opera
08:55:53 [odinho_]
ack odinho
08:55:54 [timeless]
... any volunteers for facilitator?
08:55:59 [timeless]
... jgraham ?
08:56:01 [timeless]
jgraham: maybe
08:56:09 [timeless]
... we moved the tests from opera's server to github
08:56:10 [hallvord_]
welcome Jungkee :)
08:56:30 [timeless]
... anyone else w/ tests for Server-sent-events, please talk to me
08:56:30 [Jungkee]
Hi Hallvord
08:56:40 [timeless]
chaals: testing is something we'll come back to in the agenda
08:56:41 [Jungkee]
Hi Julian
08:56:45 [timeless]
... lots of work that needs to be done
08:56:55 [timeless]
... it's great to contribute one test
08:57:08 [timeless]
... it's amazingly helpful to be the facilitator for a spec
08:57:15 [timeless]
... shadow dom is on the agenda
08:57:21 [timeless]
... screen orientation
08:57:24 [jaubourg]
Hi Jungkee, where are you in the room ?
08:57:26 [timeless]
mounir: mounir, mozilla
08:57:32 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow follow up with Kinuko Yasuda on status and plan for Quota Management API
08:57:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-667 - Follow up with Kinuko Yasuda on status and plan for Quota Management API [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-05].
08:57:35 [timeless]
... screen orientation in Firefox for B2G
08:57:45 [timeless]
... i heard from someone from google
08:57:53 [timeless]
chaals: stream api is on the agenda
08:57:58 [timeless]
... url we're looking for someone
08:58:00 [dom_]
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08:58:10 [timeless]
... web app manifest is on the agenda
08:58:16 [timeless]
... web components is on the agenda
08:58:23 [heycam]
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08:58:24 [timeless]
... webidl is on the agenda
08:58:32 [timeless]
... web intents is on the agenda
08:58:37 [timeless]
... web messaging
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08:58:49 [timeless]
krisk: there's a good number of tests
08:58:57 [timeless]
... if we move them from web workers to web messaging
08:59:04 [timeless]
... it could be sufficient to be complete
08:59:08 [timeless]
chaals: web sockets
08:59:14 [timeless]
ArtB: CR was published last month
08:59:26 [timeless]
... question of interop for exit criteria
08:59:28 [jgraham]
server sent events tests -
08:59:38 [timeless]
krisk: last F2F we talked about arraybufferview and replacement character
08:59:46 [timeless]
... ie10 implements that
08:59:55 [timeless]
... we also talked about constructors
09:00:00 [timeless]
... all 3 are issues
09:00:16 [sicking]
s/talked about constructors/talked about event constructors/
09:00:18 [timeless]
... i sent an email about the test server
09:00:30 [timeless]
... there's an issue w/ getting the server working for the tests
09:00:48 [timeless]
ArtB: there's a request for review of the test suite
09:00:52 [odinho_]
s/Hi Jungkee, where are you in the room ?//
09:01:04 [timeless]
... no comments on the test suite implies that the test suite is sufficient
09:01:17 [odinho_]
RRSAgent: make minutes
09:01:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate odinho_
09:01:19 [timeless]
... so we wait for implementations to catch up
09:01:22 [timeless]
chaals: who has impls?
09:01:25 [timeless]
... opera does?
09:01:25 [mounir]
s/screen orientation in Firefox for B2G/screen orientation in Firefox for Android and B2G
09:01:53 [timeless]
SimonPieters: opera has it
09:01:58 [timeless]
sicking: i think we implement the spec
09:02:06 [timeless]
... i think we do replacement character
09:02:10 [timeless]
... and arraybufferviews
09:02:16 [timeless]
... i'm fairly sure we do event constructors now
09:02:25 [timeless]
chaals: sounds like it's being implemented
09:02:32 [timeless]
... just a small matter of getting it cooked
09:02:36 [timeless]
... web storage?
09:02:47 [timeless]
ArtB: it's been around for a year now
09:02:56 [timeless]
... waiting for imeplementations to catch up
09:03:05 [timeless]
09:03:42 [timeless]
... i need to contact Jong-Heun Lee
09:03:48 [timeless]
chaals: web workers?
09:03:51 [timeless]
ArtB: published in may
09:03:57 [timeless]
... for shared workers, i think we're lacking impls
09:04:04 [timeless]
SimonPieters: there are tests
09:04:12 [timeless]
... the opera submitted tests aren't all testharness.js
09:04:20 [timeless]
... i'm not sure about pass rate on different browsers
09:04:26 [timeless]
... test suite still needs more work
09:04:31 [timeless]
chaals: any big issues?
09:04:45 [timeless]
sicking: i'm pretty sure there are pretty big features not implemented by anyone
09:04:53 [timeless]
... we don't implement shared workers
09:05:02 [timeless]
... i don't know if anyone implements workers in workers
09:05:08 [timeless]
annevk: i think opera does workers in workers
09:05:15 [timeless]
Travis: IE10 has workers
09:05:20 [annevk]
Opera did it first!
09:05:22 [timeless]
... we don't support shared workers in any form
09:05:32 [timeless]
... with the possible exception of automatic GC
09:05:48 [timeless]
chaals: so outstanding work to be done
09:05:50 [timeless]
ArtB: is it small
09:05:54 [timeless]
... should we split the spec?
09:06:02 [timeless]
chaals: does anyone suggest we should split the spec?
09:06:24 [timeless]
Travis: i'd like to entertain the idea of splitting out shared workers
09:06:28 [timeless]
... as a separate spec
09:06:36 [timeless]
... wanting to gauge support for that idea in the group
09:06:47 [timeless]
... seems like a good idea to move workers forward since everyone has it
09:06:56 [timeless]
chaals: we entertain spec editors
09:07:10 [timeless]
SimonPieters: i think we shouldn't split the spec
09:07:21 [timeless]
... no one is not planning to implement
09:07:23 [MikeSmith]
09:07:29 [timeless]
pbakaus: i have a question on this
09:07:38 [timeless]
... i had recent discussions on new features
09:07:39 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow work with Jong-Heun Lee to start a RfR Web Storage test suite
09:07:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-668 - Work with Jong-Heun Lee to start a RfR Web Storage test suite [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-05].
09:07:42 [timeless]
... i wonder where we put them
09:07:53 [timeless]
... do we put them in a new spec?
09:08:05 [timeless]
chaals: anyone know Hixie 's view?
09:08:09 [JonathanJ1]
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09:08:14 [timeless]
jgraham: Hixie will just put it in the WhatWG spec
09:08:19 [timeless]
... he won't split it out
09:08:29 [timeless]
... whether it makes sense depends on the feature
09:08:35 [timeless]
... if it ties in and affects semantics
09:08:43 [timeless]
... it might be hard to put it into a separate document
09:08:48 [npdoty]
q+ sicking
09:08:52 [timeless]
... without lots of hooks and making it fragile
09:08:54 [npdoty]
ack sicking
09:09:00 [timeless]
sicking: one feature is sync message channels
09:09:05 [timeless]
... which ties in pretty deeply
09:09:11 [timeless]
pbakaus: we discussed canvas
09:09:32 [timeless]
chaals: i don't see this as support for splitting it out
09:09:39 [timeless]
... ArtB does the process pushes
09:09:51 [jet]
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09:09:53 [timeless]
... you're welcome to volunteer
09:10:06 [timeless]
... but at some point we'll be skeptical about you volunteering for more work
09:10:20 [timeless]
... if we take what we have through the process
09:10:25 [timeless]
... we expect another version in the future
09:10:40 [takuya]
Re; WebSocket support, Chrome has also supported it for long time but arraybufferview and replacement character haven't been implemented yet.
09:10:48 [timeless]
chaals: we have widgets for tomorrow
09:10:54 [timeless]
... time for a 10 minute break
09:11:02 [timeless]
[ Break ]
09:11:05 [timeless]
topic: Web IDL
09:13:05 [a12u]
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09:13:38 [takuya]
Correction regarding websocket support in chromium, we have already implemented both (arraybufferview and replacement character). sorry about it.
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09:26:13 [timeless]
chaals: half the people asked about webidl now asked for it to be postponed
09:26:27 [jgraham]
09:26:29 [timeless]
toppic: Streams
09:26:39 [timeless]
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09:26:52 [adrianba]
09:26:56 [timeless]
adrianba: we updated the streams spec last week
09:27:06 [sicking]
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09:27:11 [timeless]
... it's a pretty simple spec
09:27:20 [timeless]
... we made some changes to align it with changes in the fileapi
09:27:38 [timeless]
... the stream object maps fairly closely to the Blob object in fileapi
09:27:39 [jaubourg]
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09:27:50 [timeless]
... stream has a way to keep reading data until you get to the end of the stream
09:27:54 [hallvord]
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09:27:57 [timeless]
... there's a streamreader that maps fairly closely to filereader
09:28:13 [timeless]
... there's a streambuilder which is fairly close to what we used to have with blobbuilder
09:28:19 [sicking]
09:28:20 [timeless]
... it doesn't make sense to move to the constructor form
09:28:23 [timeless]
... so it's still there
09:28:24 [timeless]
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09:28:35 [timeless]
sicking: can you read from a stream multiple times or just once?
09:28:42 [timeless]
adrianba: you can only read the data once
09:29:01 [timeless]
... the stream reader methods have a construct to say the maximum amount of data you want to read
09:29:06 [timeless]
... so you can avoid reading to the end
09:29:11 [timeless]
... you could read into a blob
09:29:20 [timeless]
chaals: so i could read from a stream into a blob
09:29:29 [timeless]
... and then read from the blob multiple times
09:29:34 [timeless]
adrianba: or into a string
09:29:48 [timeless]
sicking: is there a way to get a stream that represents the content of a url?
09:29:55 [timeless]
adrianba: part of the proposal in the stream spec
09:30:05 [timeless]
... which i think i've now volunteered to write into a different spec
09:30:10 [timeless]
... in ready-state-3
09:30:16 [timeless]
... if you set the response type to stream
09:30:24 [timeless]
... then you can put it into a stream object
09:30:30 [timeless]
... and essentially read off the wire from xhr
09:30:37 [timeless]
... and at the end the xhr moves to ready-state-4
09:30:44 [timeless]
sicking: is there the concept of a stream failing?
09:30:56 [timeless]
... if the server fails instead of ending
09:31:04 [timeless]
adrianba: if you call a read method
09:31:12 [timeless]
... and the read is ending because of an io error
09:31:18 [timeless]
... then the method throws an error
09:31:25 [timeless]
... the same sort of error construct as in file reader
09:31:27 [timeless]
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09:31:39 [timeless]
q+ to ask if you still get those last bytes before the exception
09:31:56 [timeless]
adrianba: we have the stream builder and the stream reader from xhr
09:32:04 [SimonPieters]
q+ SimonPieters
09:32:05 [timeless]
... we have discussions in html wg for media source extension spec
09:32:11 [timeless]
... we'd like to use the stream object from xhr
09:32:22 [timeless]
... to hand off data from media to the rendering pipeline
09:32:29 [timeless]
... we the Media Group
09:32:39 [timeless]
sicking: how does that work if you can only read from a stream once
09:32:45 [timeless]
... given that a media might want to rewind
09:32:51 [timeless]
adrianba: this is for media stream
09:32:57 [timeless]
... where you can append to a buffer
09:33:09 [timeless]
... the media stream is then responsible for managing that buffer
09:33:22 [timeless]
... we want to avoid having to read all the way to the end into an array buffer
09:33:29 [timeless]
... and then copy it into the media element buffer
09:33:36 [timeless]
... this avoids copying into another buffer
09:33:37 [timeless]
ack me
09:33:37 [Zakim]
timeless, you wanted to ask if you still get those last bytes before the exception
09:33:42 [sicking]
09:34:12 [timeless]
adrianba: you can read the data during progress events
09:34:19 [timeless]
... and then get the error later
09:34:25 [timeless]
... as with progress events/file
09:34:36 [timeless]
SimonPieters: with file we dropped blob builder
09:34:43 [timeless]
... is there a plan to do the same thing with stream?
09:34:54 [timeless]
adrianba: no, with blob you have all the data available at the time it's created
09:35:01 [timeless]
... the blob is immutable
09:35:11 [timeless]
... for stream, the stream builder lets you create an instance of a stream
09:35:19 [timeless]
... but still have a reference to the builder
09:35:23 [timeless]
... to feed in more data
09:35:26 [timeless]
... to append to the stream
09:35:35 [timeless]
... maybe sending with xhr, or consuming from some place else
09:35:45 [timeless]
SimonPieters: wouldn't it make sense to just have an append() method on the stream?
09:35:59 [timeless]
adrianba: this allows for producer-consumer in different places
09:36:04 [timeless]
... workers
09:36:10 [timeless]
... so you can transfer the object
09:36:16 [timeless]
... i'm open to discussion
09:36:20 [timeless]
... we haven't built builder yet
09:36:27 [timeless]
SimonPieters: discuss on bug/ML
09:36:29 [timeless]
09:36:36 [timeless]
ack sicking
09:36:38 [timeless]
ack SimonPieters
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09:36:46 [timeless]
sicking: if you want to stream from URL to <Media>
09:36:51 [timeless]
... you need to be able to Fast Forward
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09:37:01 [timeless]
... without wanting to read all the data in the interim
09:37:10 [timeless]
... and you want to be able to rewind
09:37:19 [timeless]
... you want to be able to jump arbitrarily
09:37:28 [timeless]
adrianba: the intent is to hook it up to the media source extension
09:37:29 [yune]
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09:37:34 [timeless]
... which lets you programatically compose the buffer
09:37:36 [MagnusOlsson]
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09:37:43 [timeless]
... for adaptive streaming
09:37:47 [timeless]
... you'd have a manifest file
09:37:49 [dom]
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09:38:05 [timeless]
... pointing to different segments at different bitrates
09:38:14 [timeless]
... i compose an xhr for one segment
09:38:26 [timeless]
... and choose a different bitrate for another segment
09:38:30 [shh]
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09:38:45 [timeless]
... the buffer in the media element holds the segments you append/insert
09:38:55 [timeless]
... the buffer can drop parts
09:39:10 [timeless]
... the media element with the extension will tell you if you need the data
09:39:19 [timeless]
chaals: so you could rewind to a segment you've been to
09:39:32 [timeless]
... and you could choose to pull in a different quality (higher) for the segment
09:39:34 [jwu4]
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09:39:45 [timeless]
sicking: i think my question is more on media stream
09:39:59 [timeless]
chaals: how long will it take for you to build this? will this be in ie11/ie12?
09:40:07 [timeless]
adrianba: we built a large part of this already
09:40:15 [timeless]
... we're looking for feedback... as SimonPieters mentioned
09:40:19 [timeless]
... is this the right model
09:40:24 [timeless]
... are there more changes in the file api
09:40:30 [timeless]
... that we'd need to reflect here?
09:40:39 [timeless]
... we feel read part is more useful than builder
09:40:47 [timeless]
... which is why we did that
09:40:57 [timeless]
chaals: do you have someone doing the builder part?
09:42:02 [czhang2]
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09:42:07 [timeless]
adrianba: you can get a stream from xhr
09:42:13 [timeless]
chaals: is anyone doing builder side?
09:42:39 [timeless]
... break for 30 minutes
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09:42:46 [timeless]
[ break ]
09:42:53 [timeless]
topic: Web IDL
09:44:12 [chaals]
Agenda planning for the rest of the day:
09:44:17 [chaals]
+ Web IDL
09:44:33 [chaals]
(11.15 − 12.15)
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09:59:04 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
09:59:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
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10:05:10 [ArtB]
Present+ Charles_McCathie_Nevile, Travis_Leithead, Jonas_Sicking, Olli_Pettay, Simon_Pieters, Maciej_Stachowiak, Lachlan_Hunt, Hallvord_Steen, Kenji_Baheux, Bo_Hu, Bo_Chen, Arnaud_Braud, Doug_Schepers, Eduardo_Fullea, Kris_Krueger, Lars_Erik_Bolstad
10:05:17 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
10:05:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
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10:08:03 [ArtB]
Present+ Magnus_Olsson, Mike_Smith, Mounir_Lamouri, Paul_Bakaus, Philippe_Le_Hégaret, Rafael_Weinstein, Sakari_Poussa, Virginie_GALINDO, Wayne_Carr, Yuan_Ji
10:08:17 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
10:08:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
10:08:29 [JonathanJ]
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10:11:03 [ArtB]
Present+ Erika_Doyle_Navara, Christine_Runnegar, Thomas_Roessler, Paul_Cotton, Steve_Holbrook, Anne_van_Kesteren
10:12:50 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
10:12:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
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10:16:48 [Arno]
present+ Arnaud_Braud
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10:17:03 [timeless]
Travis: webidl overview... and then testing
10:17:07 [timeless]
... there's a v1 spec
10:17:13 [timeless]
... which heycam forked off earlier this year
10:17:19 [timeless]
... he's currently working on v2 of webidl
10:17:31 [timeless]
... where new proposals, iterators, serializers have been placed
10:17:36 [Norbert]
present+ Norbert_Lindenberg
10:17:40 [timeless]
... in the interest of finishing v1, he did that split
10:18:09 [spoussa]
present +Sakari_Poussa
10:18:21 [timeless]
s/present +/present+ /
10:18:34 [timeless]
Travis: there are a number of specs with normative references to webidl
10:18:40 [a12u]
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10:18:51 [timeless]
... and they'll get stuck at CR until v1 moves to REC
10:19:00 [timeless]
... there are two approaches
10:19:08 [timeless]
... we create a test suite for the web idl specification
10:19:17 [timeless]
... that tests every normative feature in the specification
10:19:30 [timeless]
... by searching across specifications to find occurrences of those features
10:19:36 [timeless]
... to test those features specifically
10:19:52 [timeless]
... for interface object testing, we'd select a couple of those snippets
10:19:57 [timeless]
... test to see if they're present
10:20:02 [timeless]
... not testing the syntax of webidl
10:20:06 [timeless]
... testing the binding
10:20:11 [spoussa]
present+ Sakari_Poussa
10:20:16 [odinho_]
q+ to ask about [TreatUndefinedAs=Missing]
10:20:42 [timeless]
... so if you're building a browser that supports webidl
10:20:46 [virginie_galindo]
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10:20:51 [timeless]
... you'd have to implement those things
10:20:52 [rotsuya]
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10:21:11 [timeless]
... it's a bit dicey, since the test suite builders have to pick interface sections that everyone would implement
10:21:11 [kensaku]
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10:21:15 [Arno]
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10:21:16 [timeless]
... the second approach
10:21:22 [timeless]
... would be to create a meta test suite
10:21:24 [divya]
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10:21:29 [timeless]
... "how to test your specification test suite"
10:21:34 [timeless]
... two examples
10:21:38 [timeless]
... the selectors api spec
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10:21:48 [timeless]
... the web navigation timing spec (in the web perf wg)
10:21:52 [sakkuru]
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10:21:54 [timeless]
... both of those specifications reference webidl normatively
10:22:00 [timeless]
... and they'd like to go to REC
10:22:11 [timeless]
... if i'm building a test suite for navigation timing
10:22:14 [timeless]
... what do i test?
10:22:18 [timeless]
ack odinho_
10:22:18 [Zakim]
odinho_, you wanted to ask about [TreatUndefinedAs=Missing]
10:22:30 [timeless]
odinho_: we can talk about that later
10:22:42 [timeless]
Travis: i think there's a slot for that in v2
10:22:52 [timeless]
chaals: this discussion is about stabilizing/publishing v2
10:23:04 [hsivonen]
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10:23:17 [timeless]
mjs: is there at least one spec identified for every feature of webidl
10:23:21 [edoyle]
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10:23:25 [timeless]
... that is likely to be widely implemented
10:23:30 [timeless]
... and a good example of that feature
10:23:34 [timeless]
Travis: good question
10:23:39 [timeless]
... there's a type called Byte
10:23:49 [timeless]
... prior to yesterday, i wasn't aware of any spec using it
10:23:59 [timeless]
... i found one yesterday, khronos's Typed Array spec
10:24:14 [timeless]
... i believe there's an instance of each feature
10:24:19 [timeless]
... but not necessarily all combinations
10:24:28 [timeless]
... clamp(...various types...)
10:24:39 [timeless]
mjs: is there a list of specifications to use for targeting
10:24:49 [paul-huawei]
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10:24:50 [timeless]
Travis: i've created a webidl test
10:24:54 [shepazu]
there is also this page, for some references
10:25:03 [timeless]
... that's loading web idl assertions in iframes
10:25:28 [timeless]
... there's no summary of "these are the specs i'm taking from"
10:25:34 [timeless]
... but they're implicit
10:25:52 [timeless]
jgraham: i don't know how relevant it is to testing webidl itself
10:25:55 [timeless]
... there's IDLHarness.js
10:26:01 [timeless]
... in the resources repository
10:26:04 [timeless]
... in dvcs
10:26:19 [chaals]
10:26:27 [timeless]
... it might be helpful
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10:26:46 [timeless]
10:26:56 [timeless]
jgraham: it will try to test the implications of webidl
10:27:22 [timeless]
plh: last i tried, it failed on the window object
10:27:38 [timeless]
SimonPieters: i think there changes to webidl
10:27:40 [Wonsuk]
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10:27:46 [timeless]
... AryehGregor wrote it
10:27:55 [shh]
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10:28:07 [timeless]
jgraham: I think AryehGregor plans to work on it
10:28:12 [krisk]
Here is a test that consumes this idlharness.js
10:28:13 [krisk]
10:28:35 [timeless]
jgraham: it uses head grabber that darobin wrote
10:28:45 [timeless]
... if things don't match that, it'll fail
10:28:55 [timeless]
... i think that's out of date and needs to be updated
10:29:46 [timeless]
Travis: assuming that worked
10:29:53 [timeless]
present+ Robin_Berjon
10:30:12 [timeless]
chaals: say we identify "this piece is used in Selectors API"
10:30:17 [timeless]
... using this tool to check whether this works
10:31:01 [chaals]
10:31:06 [chaals]
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10:31:55 [chaals]
MJS: Seems like there are 3 testing issues:
10:31:58 [Travis]
10:32:15 [chaals]
… the combination of IDL and a particular spec, plus what IDL says, implies requirements on that spec.
10:32:35 [chaals]
… eg notification has IDL snippets and that implies requirements for the behaviour of those interefaces.
10:32:52 [chaals]
… Maybe every spec using IDL should include tests for the parts of WebIDL used in the given spec.
10:33:19 [chaals]
… But also, IDL needs to be tested itself. It has requirements on other specifications, but it is hard to make a test suite that tests specs.
10:33:54 [chaals]
… But we could do a grammar-level check, and say that satisfies spec confromance. But tehre are also requirements that cascade down to user agents, and the question is how totest those for WebIDL?
10:34:18 [chaals]
… So let's find specs that show examples of each item, and test them. This harnes could help us do that.
10:34:39 [chaals]
… We satisfy the larger set of test suites, and those results let us confirm that WebIDL itself works.
10:34:53 [chaals]
… If we trust the harness we can use it to automate.
10:34:58 [chaals]
… the process.
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10:35:32 [chaals]
CMN: +!
10:35:37 [chaals]
10:35:54 [chaals]
Travis: We could make the test harness into the testing deliverable, and agrees that is sufficient.
10:36:28 [chaals]
MJS: Interesting because that would let you test combinations. SUper useful but not sure it fulfils the testing requirement if the harness hasn't actually been used to do the testing yet.
10:36:47 [chaals]
TL: How do we test the harness.
10:39:26 [chaals]
CMN: Don't think we can get away with just the harness. Wwe need to run it, as Maciej said, but that doesn't seem to be the hard part. Agreeing on the harness seems OK.
10:39:32 [SimonPieters]
q+ SimonPieters
10:39:43 [chaals]
TL: If I edit a spec and test suite fails on WebIDL, is that a problem?
10:39:52 [chaals]
10:40:11 [chaals]
JG: We should be allowed to say a test is failing for a reason other than the actual test itself.
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10:40:29 [timeless]
10:40:30 [mjs]
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10:40:47 [timeless]
chaals: our obligation is to prove that this is implementable and workable
10:40:52 [timeless]
... we can prove that
10:40:56 [kotakagi2]
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10:41:10 [timeless]
... we want to avoid the situation where we say "this is fine, it'll work some time in the future"
10:41:29 [plh]
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10:41:33 [timeless]
... it's like saying "we'll fail the selectors api because someone has a bug in target()"
10:41:35 [plh]
10:41:37 [plh]
10:41:43 [timeless]
... i certainly expect to do that
10:41:49 [Lachy]
s/target()/:target pseudo-class/
10:41:50 [MikeSmith]
10:42:08 [timeless]
ack SimonPieters
10:42:12 [chaals]
… waiting to fix all corner cases is broken, and we can be more grown-up
10:42:22 [ArtB]
q+ take a quick look at the WebIDL CR Exit Criteria
10:42:22 [timeless]
SimonPieters: having reference to non-REC
10:42:27 [timeless]
... it doesn't block moving to REC
10:42:30 [chaals]
CMN: Right. We're not going to hang up on tests that fail for some non-relevant reason.
10:42:32 [timeless]
... you just have to inform that directory
10:42:36 [timeless]
10:42:45 [timeless]
... it doesn't necessarily block you
10:42:59 [timeless]
q- chaals
10:43:03 [chaals]
ack me
10:43:04 [timeless]
ack MikeSmith
10:43:09 [timeless]
ack mjs
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10:43:38 [timeless]
mjs: w3c process does require that you state your CR exit criteria
10:43:53 [timeless]
... it doesn't require "two implementations will pass in the test suite"
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10:44:12 [ArtB]
q+ to review the CR exit criteria for Web IDL
10:44:14 [timeless]
... a spec could state "as long as webidl issues are identified, we won't block on them"
10:44:25 [shepazu]
+1 to mjs
10:44:50 [timeless]
... CR exit criteria saying "we must have fixes for every single observed issue" isn't a good idea
10:45:07 [timeless]
plh: i did this exercise with web performance navigation timing
10:45:28 [odinho_]
10:46:04 [timeless]
plh: I did this exercise
10:46:05 [ArtB]
10:46:11 [chaals]
10:46:13 [MikeSmith]
ack plh
10:46:17 [chaals]
ack pl
10:46:21 [chaals]
ack od
10:46:29 [timeless]
... And every single thing had issues
10:46:43 [mjs]
10:46:59 [timeless]
Odinho: I did testing and stopped there was too much red
10:47:19 [timeless]
... There was no prioritization
10:47:25 [timeless]
... Throwing is important
10:47:36 [timeless]
... Some things are less
10:47:46 [timeless]
... Prototype chain
10:47:53 [jgraham]
10:48:46 [Lachy]
10:48:55 [sicking]
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10:49:20 [tobie]
present+ Tobie_Langel
10:51:28 [timeless]
Travis: hopefully when webidl is pushed to rec, people will fix their implementations to match
10:51:41 [chaals]
TL: If there are crucial parts of WebIDL that need to pass we need to make sure they do...
10:51:44 [timeless]
... so that we won't have 80% failures for indexeddb
10:51:44 [chaals]
10:51:45 [timeless]
10:51:46 [mjs]
ack mjs
10:52:05 [timeless]
mjs: i've heard there are things which are tested and fail
10:52:10 [timeless]
... i'd like to know what they are
10:52:16 [timeless]
... it's hard to talk in the abstract
10:52:26 [timeless]
... are these different in all browsers?
10:52:40 [timeless]
... or do the browsers all do one thing which is distinct from webidl
10:52:49 [timeless]
... in which case we could "fix" webidl
10:53:07 [timeless]
... but if the browsers each have different behaviors, then making them match webidl could be easier
10:53:29 [timeless]
jgraham: for a lot of the things
10:53:34 [timeless]
... where we see lots and lots of fails
10:53:40 [timeless]
... it's the way the testharness has been written
10:53:48 [timeless]
... it's to test the webidl stuff very carefully
10:53:57 [timeless]
... we can't say nothing about it
10:54:10 [timeless]
... but atm, we have 4 browsers doing 4 distinct things
10:54:18 [timeless]
... where should attributes be on the prototype chain?
10:54:23 [timeless]
... on the objects, on the prototype, both?
10:54:28 [timeless]
... we discussed it on the ML
10:54:34 [timeless]
... we agreed it was the right solution technically
10:54:43 [timeless]
... but everyone who isn't doing that today needs to change this, it's tedious
10:55:00 [plh]
10:55:01 [timeless]
... but that shouldn't block specs
10:55:05 [plh]
ack jg
10:55:09 [plh]
ack la
10:55:11 [chaals]
ack lach
10:55:14 [timeless]
Lachy: priotizing tests
10:55:22 [timeless]
10:55:30 [timeless]
... i have critical tests
10:55:34 [timeless]
... and nice to have tests
10:55:39 [hallvord]
It's important to get those prototype chain issues worked out - or we get compat problems like
10:55:42 [timeless]
... including stuff in webidl that might fail
10:56:20 [timeless]
... changing some parts in webidl would require changing lots of things in our implementation
10:56:25 [timeless]
... and we didn't have the resources for that
10:56:32 [timeless]
... implementing TypeError / NSError from firefox
10:56:40 [timeless]
... changing that, it's in our code, it's a relatively small change
10:56:46 [timeless]
... but it can affect lots of things
10:56:53 [mjs]
10:56:53 [timeless]
... requiring a lot of test fixes in our system
10:56:55 [timeless]
10:56:58 [timeless]
ack sicking
10:57:18 [timeless]
sicking: there are very few controversial things
10:57:20 [kotakagi]
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10:57:23 [chaals]
q+ travis
10:57:25 [chaals]
10:57:29 [chaals]
10:57:32 [timeless]
... there's very few cases where we should remove something from the spec
10:57:37 [Jungkee]
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10:57:37 [timeless]
... it's just tedious to fix
10:57:42 [timeless]
... and doesn't add value for implementers
10:57:42 [Jungkee]
Present+ Jungkee_Song
10:57:47 [timeless]
... so it gets less priority
10:58:00 [chaals]
ack mj
10:58:03 [timeless]
mjs: it'd be useful to make a list of known common things
10:58:10 [timeless]
... where there aren't 2 implementations matching webidl's spec
10:58:22 [timeless]
... if the harness could group things
10:58:25 [jaubourg]
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10:58:28 [timeless]
... based on which type of interop issue
10:58:32 [timeless]
... that'd be useful
10:58:44 [timeless]
... thus the remaining ones would be more easily identified
10:58:53 [timeless]
... for the n different behaviors of attribute behaviors
10:58:58 [timeless]
... i'd like to know what they are
10:59:18 [Lachy]
10:59:27 [timeless]
sicking: three behaviors i know of
10:59:33 [timeless]
... webkit puts stuff on object itself
10:59:43 [timeless]
... i think opera puts things on the relevant prototype object
10:59:51 [timeless]
... for dom node nodeName, on the Node interface object
11:00:02 [timeless]
... gecko puts it on the Node interface object and the leaf interface object
11:00:09 [timeless]
... e.g. Node and Div interface
11:00:19 [timeless]
Travis: IE since 9 puts it on the Node prototype
11:00:32 [timeless]
jgraham: opera is different for Methods and Attributes
11:00:39 [timeless]
ack Travis
11:00:46 [SimonPieters]
in Opera methods are on the prototype, attributes are on the object.
11:00:47 [timeless]
Travis: i'll take an action as we build the test
11:00:52 [timeless]
... to understand the impl report
11:00:59 [timeless]
... there's 2/3 here
11:01:12 [timeless]
... it sounds like that'd be helpful for further discussion on issues
11:01:55 [timeless]
chaals: if you build stuff on webidl
11:02:01 [timeless]
... and you change the spec underneath them
11:02:14 [timeless]
... that makes a mess for really hard to change things
11:02:19 [timeless]
... things outside web browsers
11:02:27 [timeless]
... we need to think about pragmatic
11:03:13 [bryan]
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11:03:15 [timeless]
chaals: a way of testing downstream specs
11:03:25 [timeless]
... and finding out what the issues are
11:03:35 [timeless]
... having a WG lets us discuss how to break each of everyone's systems to reach interop
11:03:49 [timeless]
... seems we have a path forward
11:03:58 [smaug]
plh: to nav timing? I recall one change + webidl-fying the implementation
11:04:39 [timeless]
ArtB: plh , do you know what to tell the web performance group?
11:05:58 [timeless]
timeless: Nightly has 45 pass (2 fail)
11:06:07 [timeless]
... ie9 has 42 pass (5 fail)
11:06:12 [timeless]
plh: i can take that to the director
11:06:23 [timeless]
chaals: an answer to how long does it take to get done
11:06:27 [timeless]
... there's a priority problem
11:06:35 [timeless]
... "until web idl is finished, you have more work to do"
11:06:44 [timeless]
... to be sure that webidl isn't going to change under you
11:06:57 [Travis]
11:07:14 [krisk]
IE10 has the same result as IE9 (42 pass, 5 fail)
11:07:20 [timeless]
... go back to groups "you should push web idl to be sure it's finished sooner"
11:07:29 [timeless]
plh: those groups don't know how to test webidl
11:07:37 [timeless]
chaals: i see darobin 's boss looking at darobin
11:07:42 [timeless]
darobin: i'm coding it right now
11:07:45 [Travis]
11:07:54 [chaals]
ack me
11:07:58 [timeless]
Travis: i'd propose we send out a general announcement
11:08:08 [timeless]
... "if your spec depends on webidl. please contact Travis "
11:08:15 [timeless]
... "we'll see if we can prioritize your pieces of webidl"
11:08:32 [timeless]
plh: we have a few specs in PR waiting on WebIDL
11:08:32 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow work with PLH on an announcement seeking IRC fragments
11:08:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-669 - Work with PLH on an announcement seeking IRC fragments [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-05].
11:08:46 [timeless]
... including GeoLoc
11:09:04 [timeless]
11:09:08 [ArtB]
s/IRC fragments/Web IDL fragments/
11:09:17 [timeless]
chaals: on getting WebIDL stable, anything else we need to add?
11:09:19 [timeless]
... we have a plan
11:09:27 [timeless]
... find out what we don't agree on, work on making them work
11:10:23 [timeless]
Travis: please review the assertions in webidl
11:10:35 [timeless]
ArtB: i can send out a call for review to public-script-coord
11:10:38 [timeless]
chaals: time check
11:10:42 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow start a Call for Review for Web IDL test plan on public-script-coord
11:10:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-670 - Start a Call for Review for Web IDL test plan on public-script-coord [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-05].
11:11:19 [timeless]
ArtB: the guys working on Quota API could give a quick update
11:11:28 [timeless]
topic: Quota API
11:11:55 [timeless]
... she received two pieces of feedback
11:12:12 [timeless]
... temporary/permanent
11:12:18 [MikeSmith]
11:12:18 [timeless]
... the other was to change the interface name
11:12:30 [timeless]
... to get the object instead of integer
11:12:44 [timeless]
... Kinuko mentioned changing temporary/permanent
11:12:57 [timeless]
... as far as she knows, chromium is the only browser supporting this api
11:13:07 [timeless]
... to move forward,
11:13:20 [rotsuya]
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11:13:37 [rubylin]
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11:13:38 [timeless]
... she's eager to look at how to get others to associate things with
11:13:42 [timeless]
[ .... ]
11:13:50 [timeless]
tobie: vaguely, i made those comments
11:14:02 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
11:14:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
11:14:02 [timeless]
timeless: he isn't an implementer, he's a consumer
11:14:38 [timeless]
topic: Lunch
11:14:45 [timeless]
chaals: 75 minutes for lunch
11:14:59 [timeless]
... be back here, 1:30 Central European Standard Time
11:15:30 [timeless]
MikeSmith: will the room be locked?
11:15:34 [timeless]
chaals: MikeSmith will find out
11:15:47 [aizu]
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11:16:14 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
11:16:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
11:17:05 [timeless]
MikeSmith: if people want to leave stuff, we can lock the room
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11:21:58 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow work with Opera Websocket tester(s) on a Request for Review of their web socket tests
11:21:58 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-671 - Work with Opera Websocket tester(s) on a Request for Review of their web socket tests [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-05].
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12:42:49 [kotakagi]
s/Koichi Takagi/kotakagi/
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12:49:35 [aizu]
Present Hiroyuki_Aizu
12:49:52 [dgrogan_cloud]
present+ David_Grogan
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12:52:01 [timeless]
chaals: it's getting on towards the 1:30pm start time
12:52:14 [timeless]
i/getting/Topic: IndexedDB/
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12:53:16 [timeless]
12:53:17 [smaug]
12:53:24 [timeless]
12:53:26 [ArtB]
s/Present Hiroyuki_Aizu/Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu/
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12:53:50 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
12:53:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
12:53:59 [slightlyoff]
12:54:11 [timeless]
chaals: anything else people want to talk about?
12:54:12 [timeless]
lmastiner: will you talk about URLs?
12:54:29 [timeless]
chaals: we're looking for an editor to rebrand annevk's work
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12:54:57 [timeless]
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12:55:22 [timeless]
lmasinter: i'm interested making sure the IETF specs are useful
12:55:24 [timeless]
chaals: good thing to do
12:55:37 [efullea]
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12:55:43 [timeless]
topic: IETF specs
12:55:59 [timeless]
chaals: where's the other mic?
12:56:03 [bryan]
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12:56:08 [timeless]
lmasinter: there are 4 specs
12:56:14 [npdoty]
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12:56:16 [timeless]
... trying to describe what an IRI is
12:56:24 [timeless]
... there was a document for comparing IRIs
12:56:25 [jfmoy]
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12:56:30 [timeless]
... a document for bidirectional IRIs
12:56:39 [timeless]
... combining LTR w/ RTL text
12:56:47 [timeless]
... and a document to update the URI scheme registration
12:56:56 [timeless]
... because people were confused about URI/IRI registration
12:57:03 [timeless]
... the IRI WG has been meeting for several years
12:57:11 [timeless]
... there'll be a meeting in Atlanta next week
12:57:12 [takuya]
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12:57:14 [timeless]
... i'll be there
12:57:14 [Alan]
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12:57:23 [timeless]
... i'm hoping if we'll get more test cases into the test suite
12:57:35 [timeless]
... we need to make sure the reality matches the right reality
12:57:36 [Veronica]
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12:57:39 [timeless]
... the specs are open
12:57:45 [timeless]
... there's a tracker with issues
12:57:50 [timeless]
... there's been about 60 issues
12:57:59 [timeless]
... there hasn't been much overlap between the people here and there
12:58:14 [jbb]
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12:58:58 [timeless]
... i haven't seen substantive work taking place here
12:59:06 [timeless]
... we did commit to doing work
12:59:17 [timeless]
lmasinter: i've been doing work with SDQ
13:00:38 [hsivonen]
I have been lead to believe only Opera implements IDNA 2008. others implement 2003
13:00:40 [timeless]
... on rfc 3987
13:00:46 [odinho_]
-> WHATWG URL spec
13:00:51 [timeless]
13:01:02 [sakkuru]
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13:01:07 [adrianba]
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13:01:19 [timeless]
alex_russell: Alex Russell, Google
13:01:27 [tokamoto]
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13:01:28 [timeless]
... who's signed up to implementing this?
13:01:35 [edoyle]
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13:01:38 [timeless]
lmasinter: the people who are there are those who have sent email
13:01:46 [Jungkee]
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13:01:48 [timeless]
chaals: while we have a URI spec in our WG
13:01:53 [timeless]
... i haven't seen anyone doing work on it
13:02:22 [timeless]
lmasinter: we put in 8 test cases, and all the browsers are different about how they behave
13:02:39 [jcverdie]
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13:02:46 [timeless]
timeless: just filing the bugs is a first step
13:03:10 [timeless]
13:03:13 [glenn]
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13:03:28 [timeless]
13:03:46 [krisk]
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13:03:53 [timeless]
... i've been trying to get Chris Weber to put his testcases into a form where people can run them
13:04:04 [timeless]
topic: Introductions continued
13:04:14 [timeless]
tobie: Tobie Langel, Facebook, everything
13:04:21 [sakkuru]
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13:04:32 [timeless]
amirabella: XXX
13:04:40 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
13:04:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
13:04:43 [timeless]
alex_russell: Alex Russell, Google
13:04:52 [timeless]
dgrogan_cloud: David Grogan, Google, IndexedDB
13:04:57 [timeless]
mjs: Maciej, Apple, most things
13:04:59 [Travis]
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13:05:04 [slightlyoff]
timeless: I'm Alex Russell for the record
13:05:17 [timeless]
bradee-oh: Bradee, Google, ibid
13:05:24 [bradee-oh]
13:05:34 [bradee-oh]
13:05:44 [timeless]
spoussa: Sakario Poussa
13:05:53 [ArtB]
Present+ Alex_Russell, Brady_Eidson, Jungkee_Song
13:05:54 [krisk]
present+ kris_krueger
13:05:56 [timeless]
Jungkee: Jungkee Song, Samsung
13:06:05 [ArtB]
Present+ Larry_Masinter
13:06:05 [timeless]
topic: IndexedDB
13:06:15 [timeless]
sicking: we've gotten a bunch of feedback
13:06:26 [timeless]
... we've got a lot of feedback
13:06:35 [timeless]
... we need to integrate the feedback
13:06:40 [timeless]
... and then update the spec to use WebIDL
13:06:47 [timeless]
... we have good scripts from darobin to do that
13:06:51 [timeless]
... i've been slacking
13:06:56 [odinho_]
13:07:00 [timeless]
... either i need help, or i need to make it happen
13:07:04 [SteveH]
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13:07:04 [timeless]
chaals: who's doing impl?
13:07:18 [timeless]
sicking: chrome and firefox are more or less fully spec conformant
13:07:21 [timeless]
... ie10 is mostly there
13:07:26 [timeless]
... i don't know about opera
13:07:28 [mjs]
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13:07:29 [timeless]
odinho_: pretty done
13:07:36 [timeless]
sicking: including blobs and array keypath?
13:07:40 [jaubourg]
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13:07:42 [timeless]
odinho_: array keypath, yes
13:07:46 [timeless]
... blobs, some blobs
13:07:48 [timeless]
[ laughter ]
13:07:48 [dgrogan_cloud]
13:07:56 [timeless]
odinho_: it's being reviewed
13:08:02 [timeless]
... we need to figure out ordering
13:08:05 [timeless]
... exceptions
13:08:12 [timeless]
... we want to get it in pretty soonish
13:08:52 [Yuan]
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13:09:14 [timeless]
odinho_: blocked error
13:09:19 [timeless]
sicking: blocked vs. error
13:09:28 [timeless]
odinho_: having a blocked error vs. an onblocked event
13:09:59 [timeless]
... we wanted a simpler thing
13:10:07 [timeless]
... where the developer ...
13:10:51 [timeless]
sicking: we disagree
13:10:57 [timeless]
dgrogan_cloud: internally we talked about it
13:11:01 [timeless]
... we liked opera's proposal
13:11:06 [timeless]
... but since we already implemented
13:11:11 [timeless]
... we're ambivalent
13:11:20 [timeless]
sicking: there's the question of what microsoft wants
13:11:32 [timeless]
... there's also the question of exposing GC behavior
13:11:36 [timeless]
... the spec exposes some
13:11:47 [timeless]
... but if we do more, we may expose more GC
13:11:58 [timeless]
... the root cause is that there are GC effects
13:12:12 [timeless]
... i'm concerned about changing the spec given how implemented it is
13:12:14 [timeless]
ack dgrogan_cloud
13:12:22 [timeless]
dgrogan_cloud: i don't know if we want to discuss this further
13:12:57 [timeless]
adrianba: we don't want to change the behavior we've implemented
13:12:58 [paul-huawei]
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13:13:06 [timeless]
... we've shipped this
13:13:07 [timeless]
... we're building applications that depend on this
13:13:13 [odinho_]
13:13:16 [timeless]
... the new version of exchange supports offline email using indexeddb
13:13:30 [annevk]
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13:13:36 [timeless]
chaals: so we have legacy implementation
13:13:51 [timeless]
... such is life
13:14:01 [timeless]
... is opera's request just make work?
13:14:17 [timeless]
sicking: so far, no one has opposed adding opera's requested behavior in a new function
13:14:25 [timeless]
... i don't have a strong opinion
13:14:30 [waynecarr]
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13:14:38 [timeless]
... but people will use the short named one with the bad behavior
13:14:49 [timeless]
odinho_: if it has a longer name it will be less frequently used
13:14:54 [timeless]
ack odinho_
13:15:06 [timeless]
odinho_: i hope your exchange app doesn't need this
13:15:21 [timeless]
... if the browser asks the page to close the connection, it should probably close the connection
13:15:24 [timeless]
... it's a corner case
13:15:34 [timeless]
we tried arguing this for a while before
13:15:39 [timeless]
... it's quite late for us as well
13:15:49 [timeless]
... we implemented the other thing, it was extremely quick to do
13:15:56 [timeless]
... the consensus is to keep the spec as is
13:15:59 [timeless]
... it's a corner case
13:16:06 [timeless]
... hopefully it won't hurt too much
13:16:19 [timeless]
... if it starts hurting, we'd fix it in bug fixing
13:16:24 [timeless]
... v2 features
13:16:32 [timeless]
... get database names
13:16:39 [timeless]
sicking: i think firefox is the only one w/o it
13:16:51 [timeless]
odinho_: we implemented it as we saw in the email
13:16:59 [timeless]
... since everyone is implementing this
13:17:05 [divya]
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13:17:05 [timeless]
... it'll be on the web platform in some form
13:17:11 [divya1]
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13:17:27 [timeless]
sicking: we need to be able to figure out how to elevate new features
13:17:49 [timeless]
... if someone wants to work on extended functions in a v2
13:17:57 [timeless]
... for get database names
13:18:03 [timeless]
... i'd request it's a safe thing
13:18:14 [timeless]
... if you try to open it right away
13:18:26 [timeless]
... you're guaranteed to have it there with the version number you were told
13:18:44 [virginie_galindo]
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13:18:46 [timeless]
odinho_: we did it super fast, so it probably doesn't do that
13:19:09 [timeless]
sicking: that was my requirement when we discussed it earlier
13:19:20 [timeless]
... ms came back and said it makes sense but didn't they could do it in time
13:19:32 [yamaday]
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13:19:38 [timeless]
... it's implementable, but non-trivial to implement
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13:20:44 [timeless]
adrianba: the other thing is that we've been close to a long time
13:20:58 [timeless]
... but we should get this first spec finalized
13:21:18 [timeless]
sicking: i'm not interested in adding features for v1
13:21:25 [timeless]
odinho_: for some internal stuff, we need this
13:21:38 [timeless]
... since we need it, we're going to implement it
13:22:00 [timeless]
chaals: can we put it in an FPWD
13:22:09 [timeless]
sicking: i'm happy to put it in a draft if people are
13:22:15 [timeless]
chaals: sicking to write a v2 draft
13:22:20 [timeless]
odinho_: by next week
13:22:20 [Norbert_]
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13:22:20 [dgrogan_cloud]
13:22:24 [timeless]
chaals: i heard by tomorrow
13:22:39 [timeless]
ArtB: v1 is in LC
13:22:46 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:22:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
13:23:16 [shepazu]
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13:23:25 [timeless]
ArtB: what's eliott's status?
13:23:33 [timeless]
adrianba: he's been pretty busy, but he's available
13:23:40 [timeless]
sicking: there's also exception ordering
13:23:48 [timeless]
... which could be a big chunk of work
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13:24:15 [timeless]
ArtB: can i assume sicking and israel can help?
13:24:20 [odinho_]
q+ short about the undefined handling
13:24:28 [timeless]
dgrogan_cloud: i don't think anyone from google has touched editing
13:24:41 [timeless]
ArtB: we can editors
13:24:50 [timeless]
dgrogan_cloud: those editors have moved on to other projects
13:25:09 [timeless]
odinho_: the bug about undefined handling sounds uncontroversiall
13:25:11 [timeless]
13:25:16 [timeless]
... treat undefined as missing
13:25:25 [dgrogan_cloud]
13:25:38 [timeless]
sicking: i think the behavior has been decided on
13:25:51 [timeless]
... webidl spec doesn't define the desired behavior
13:26:02 [timeless]
... treat-undefined-as-missing will be the default behavior
13:26:12 [timeless]
dgrogan_cloud: sounds like these are editorial things
13:26:14 [timeless]
chaals: there's issues
13:26:20 [timeless]
... but not complex/controversial
13:26:27 [timeless]
sicking: i think the only one is open()
13:26:33 [timeless]
... the exception issue is technical
13:26:40 [timeless]
... but it just needs to be defined
13:27:13 [timeless]
ArtB: can anyone from Apple/Safari comment?
13:27:25 [timeless]
bradee-oh: we have no comment
13:27:45 [timeless]
chaals: does anyone care about websql?
13:27:56 [timeless]
timeless: can you please bury it further than it's already buried?
13:28:05 [timeless]
chaals: i don't know where's it's buried
13:28:09 [timeless]
... so good.
13:28:19 [timeless]
[ Break until 2:45pm ]
13:28:25 [timeless]
topic: Push APIs
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13:35:38 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:35:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
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13:45:01 [timeless]
Zakim, call Rhone_3
13:45:01 [Zakim]
sorry, timeless, I don't know what conference this is
13:45:18 [npdoty]
Zakim, this is 2012
13:45:18 [Zakim]
npdoty, I see IA_WebApps()4:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 2012".
13:45:24 [npdoty]
Zakim, this will be 2012
13:45:24 [Zakim]
ok, npdoty; I see IA_WebApps()4:00AM scheduled to start 345 minutes ago
13:45:31 [npdoty]
Zakim, call Rhone_3
13:45:31 [Zakim]
ok, npdoty; the call is being made
13:45:32 [Zakim]
IA_WebApps()4:00AM has now started
13:45:33 [Zakim]
13:45:52 [npdoty]
Zakim, who is making noise?
13:46:05 [Zakim]
npdoty, listening for 12 seconds I could not identify any sounds
13:46:08 [Zakim]
13:46:09 [Zakim]
IA_WebApps()4:00AM has ended
13:46:09 [Zakim]
Attendees were Rhone_3
13:46:22 [paul-huawei]
paul-huawei has joined #webapps
13:46:50 [npdoty]
Zakim, call Rhone_3
13:46:50 [Zakim]
ok, npdoty; the call is being made
13:46:51 [Zakim]
IA_WebApps()4:00AM has now started
13:46:53 [Zakim]
13:47:26 [Zakim]
13:47:27 [Zakim]
IA_WebApps()4:00AM has ended
13:47:27 [Zakim]
Attendees were Rhone_3
13:48:05 [a1zu]
a1zu has joined #webapps
13:48:48 [npdoty]
Zakim, call Rhone_3
13:48:48 [Zakim]
ok, npdoty; the call is being made
13:48:49 [Zakim]
IA_WebApps()4:00AM has now started
13:48:51 [Zakim]
13:49:01 [npdoty]
Zakim, who is making noise?
13:49:11 [Zakim]
npdoty, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
13:49:14 [npdoty]
Zakim, who is making noise?
13:49:19 [a12u]
a12u has joined #webapps
13:49:24 [npdoty]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
13:49:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Rhone_3
13:49:26 [Zakim]
npdoty, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds
13:49:30 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:49:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
13:49:46 [npdoty]
if you're trying to call in, please let us know if you are hearing anything, and if not, ping me
13:49:56 [timeless]
bryan: we reached fpwd
13:50:02 [bryan]
13:50:45 [timeless]
... i'd suggest we do a quick run through
13:50:54 [timeless]
... hopefully many people have taken a look at this
13:50:59 [Hidetoshi]
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13:51:00 [timeless]
... we originally presented this in 2009
13:51:04 [MagnusOlsson]
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13:51:11 [aizu]
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13:51:14 [timeless]
... last year we proposed doing this in the web-apps recharter
13:51:26 [timeless]
... in the interim we worked on this outside w3c
13:52:02 [timeless]
... this puts together things that are possible today using different methods
13:52:02 [Yune_]
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13:52:13 [timeless]
... the focus of this api is on what happens between the application and its runtime
13:52:16 [jaubourg]
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13:52:31 [chaals]
13:52:35 [timeless]
... practical implementations take into account the platform in which the application runs
13:52:47 [timeless]
... that includes browser/native os platforms
13:52:47 [mjs]
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13:52:54 [timeless]
... or platforms from OMA/SMS/SIP
13:53:15 [timeless]
... whichever API is available/supported by the UA is supported through the API
13:53:21 [timeless]
... when we put out our CfC
13:53:23 [Cyril]
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13:53:29 [timeless]
... we only got a question from sicking
13:53:44 [timeless]
... we can take comments, or walk through the spec...
13:53:51 [timeless]
chaals: can we skip through rapidly?
13:54:03 [timeless]
chaals: who implements?
13:54:26 [timeless]
sicking: for mozilla
13:54:34 [timeless]
... unfortunately, it isn't an easy answer
13:54:41 [timeless]
... there are patches to do the proposed api for gecko
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13:54:45 [yamaday]
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13:54:46 [timeless]
... for Firefox OS
13:54:50 [timeless]
... (B2G)
13:55:03 [timeless]
... it was very recently decided that it wouldn't ship in the initial release of Firefox OS
13:55:07 [timeless]
... the api is implementable
13:55:20 [timeless]
... there's also an implementation of the server side infrastructure
13:55:31 [timeless]
... the reason we aren't putting in v1 is the set of reasons from my email
13:55:37 [Yuan]
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13:55:38 [timeless]
... we're not convinced it's the right solution
13:55:51 [timeless]
... we are going to start working on experimenting to see what we think is the right solution
13:55:56 [timeless]
chaals: you're interested in Push
13:56:01 [timeless]
... you want to make something work
13:56:06 [adrianba_]
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13:56:10 [timeless]
... if we had the same spec w/ different content?
13:56:16 [timeless]
sicking: we're very interested in push
13:56:20 [timeless]
... but we want a good design
13:56:30 [timeless]
/me sicking "implementation" -> "design" ?
13:56:52 [timeless]
s| /me sicking "implementation" -> "design" ?||
13:56:56 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:56:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
13:57:24 [timeless]
ed: we're working w/ mozilla
13:57:28 [timeless]
... and are very interested
13:57:30 [jcverdie]
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13:57:33 [timeless]
BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM: we're interested
13:57:40 [timeless]
... we won't be precisely implementing it
13:57:47 [timeless]
... but we're supportive of this unified api
13:58:05 [Yves]
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13:58:08 [Wonsuk]
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13:58:15 [timeless]
... there's a question of whether there's a broker
13:58:20 [timeless]
... in /above the browser
13:58:25 [timeless]
... and accessible by web apps
13:58:56 [timeless]
chaals: you don't implement your own browser
13:59:01 [timeless]
BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM: no, we don't
13:59:13 [darobin]
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13:59:14 [timeless]
chaals: some operators say to certain browsers "you will do this"
13:59:23 [timeless]
... and some produce enough content that browsers will do this
13:59:28 [morrita]
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13:59:40 [timeless]
BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM: we may have significant influence over Chinese browsers
13:59:51 [timeless]
... if every web application builds on their own channel
13:59:55 [timeless]
... that's something to avoid
14:00:07 [timeless]
... it will have negative impact on devices and networks
14:00:13 [sicking]
14:00:17 [timeless]
pbakaus: we're interested in this
14:00:28 [timeless]
... we want to push messages to the client
14:00:32 [timeless]
... in our games
14:00:35 [timeless]
14:00:38 [timeless]
ack q
14:00:40 [timeless]
ack chaals
14:00:49 [chaals]
ack me
14:00:51 [timeless]
bryan: we believe there is a lot of interest in the concept
14:01:02 [chaals]
ack sick
14:01:06 [timeless]
... it isn't possible today to do this outside an app by app connection, or a shared worker
14:01:36 [timeless]
... how things are done is less of a concern than that they are done
14:02:00 [KenjiBX]
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14:02:18 [timeless]
sicking: this draft is a lot closer to the right api
14:02:25 [timeless]
... than anything else that's been discussed in this space
14:02:30 [timeless]
... i'd love to hear from apple and google
14:02:37 [timeless]
q+ to note that MS announced it had for Skype in wp8
14:02:45 [trackbot]
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14:02:51 [timeless]
... i'll note that a lot of companies have experience
14:02:59 [timeless]
... is apple interested in push for the web?
14:03:04 [shh]
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14:03:14 [timeless]
mjs: i think we'll need to wait for our legal department's review of this FPWD
14:03:29 [timeless]
... from a technical review, i haven't read/considered this spec
14:03:39 [timeless]
... your review has the concerns i'd want to express
14:03:49 [timeless]
... scalability and authentication are what i'd worry about
14:04:05 [timeless]
sicking: can we get the people w/ experience to comment?
14:04:13 [timeless]
mjs: probably not possible to get them to comment directly
14:04:19 [timeless]
... they aren't involved in standards
14:04:25 [kawada]
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14:04:31 [timeless]
... but i can probably get them to look at it and forward comments
14:04:41 [timeless]
mjs: the way apple addressed this
14:04:49 [timeless]
... is that apple devices only trust apple servers
14:05:07 [timeless]
and apple forces app authors to create certificates which we trust
14:05:13 [kawada]
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14:05:13 [timeless]
... i don't know of a way to avoid spam
14:05:36 [timeless]
sicking: i think this spec requires the device to trust the push server
14:05:41 [timeless]
... but not the push server to trust the device
14:05:58 [timeless]
rafaelw: i think we're interested
14:06:11 [timeless]
14:06:13 [timeless]
ack me
14:06:13 [Zakim]
timeless, you wanted to note that MS announced it had for Skype in wp8
14:06:32 [ArtB]
ACTION: rafael provide feedback on Push API
14:06:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-672 - Provide feedback on Push API [on Rafael Weinstein - due 2012-11-05].
14:06:45 [timeless]
adrianba_: so
14:07:03 [timeless]
... right now, Microsoft's experience / position is similar to mjs's outline of Apple's
14:07:12 [timeless]
... notifications are built on top of windows live notifications
14:07:17 [timeless]
... that messenger has provided
14:07:20 [kensaku]
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14:07:22 [timeless]
... we have a generic notification system
14:07:28 [timeless]
... operated by microsoft for WP
14:07:33 [ArtB]
14:07:36 [timeless]
... it's tied in to the services provided by microsoft
14:07:52 [timeless]
chaals: does Opera have any position?
14:07:59 [timeless]
jgraham: i know nothing
14:08:20 [timeless]
14:08:23 [timeless]
ack ArtB
14:08:31 [rotsuya]
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14:08:35 [timeless]
ArtB: quick question, probably to bryan and ed
14:08:36 [timeless]
... in section 9
14:08:51 [efullea]
it is efullea, not ed
14:09:08 [timeless]
... are there issues w/ w3 having normative references to OMA / similar specs?
14:09:14 [timeless]
bryan: i'm not aware of any
14:09:29 [timeless]
... establishing an api to connect to something supported by the device
14:09:34 [timeless]
... shouldn't be an issue
14:09:43 [timeless]
chaals: tizen?
14:10:10 [timeless]
Wonsuk: Wonsuk, Samsung
14:10:15 [timeless]
... for Tizen
14:10:47 [timeless]
... i think it's a core feature for a lot of mobile apps including Games/apps
14:11:00 [timeless]
... Samsung has its own service for this
14:11:14 [timeless]
chaals: so, everyone has a push system
14:11:21 [timeless]
... everyone who has one doesn't need a standard
14:11:30 [timeless]
... everyone who doesn't have a system want a standard
14:11:51 [timeless]
bryan: in 80% of phones worldwide, push is supported
14:14:02 [chaals]
scribe: chaals
14:14:03 [npdoty]
30 minutes for coffee starting now, unless you want to talk about Push API details, in which case stick around
14:14:21 [chaals]
timeless: "this" example is requesting permission. How does the server side discover where it wants to talk to?
14:14:28 [chaals]
… does the platform get called to the URI?
14:15:13 [chaals]
… eg, zynga has an app on a phone, apple runs the network. I open the phone, how does the zynga app register to the cloud, so the zynga server knows where to send the push notification?
14:15:41 [chaals]
Bryan: There is a URL that the push service provides for the app to register and invoke the operation.
14:16:04 [chaals]
… It's the service URL in the activate variable (we are in example 1)
14:16:29 [chaals]
… it is passed up to the application, to kbow where to invoke messages and what protocols are supported.
14:16:46 [Zakim]
14:17:00 [chaals]
… There are a variety of ways it could be done - people have worked on this for a dozen years or more.
14:17:56 [sakkuru]
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14:18:14 [rsleevi]
Present+ Ryan_Sleevi
14:18:16 [chaals]
Bryan. It is intended to describe the context of how push can work
14:18:36 [chaals]
… show use cases like RTC, activity getting woken, multiple instances of apps, etc.
14:18:46 [chaals]
… THings that folow from the use cases we proposed early on.
14:19:04 [chaals]
… Security/Privacy section was filled in on request - this is fairly boilerplate text copied from DAP.
14:19:09 [timeless]
timeless: fwiw, "&serverProtocols="+mypush.serverProtocols; should probably have an encode method, otherwise it's asking for pain :)
14:19:24 [chaals]
… referenced Jonas' comments
14:19:33 [chaals]
… So those are noted open questions for further discussion.
14:20:00 [kotakagi]
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14:20:17 [chaals]
… Framework section gives a general explanation, but main bit is between the app and the user agent. There are some artifacts coming from the way permission is arranged.
14:20:54 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:20:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
14:21:01 [chaals]
… for registration. Challenge we have seen in current push systems is developers lacking a way to globally implement a push-based app.
14:21:25 [chaals]
… We're not presuming to establish one protocol for everyone, but to enable the app to discover what services are available in a given context.
14:22:59 [chaals]
… We have pretty much taken the suggestions from Jonas on attributes for the interface. They facilitate some of the questions about keys, etc. We need to get into detail about how this addresses security, etc. Otherwise it is similar to server sent events in design - type of events, ready state, etc.
14:24:29 [chaals]
… There is a section on service bindings. Based on work done outside W3C and what might work well in W3C context. We left stuff out to simplify, eg headers (compared to OMA)
14:25:19 [chaals]
… Same for SMS - no headers...
14:25:40 [Yune]
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14:45:31 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
14:45:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
14:45:37 [tomoyuki]
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14:45:43 [ArtB]
zakim, who's here?
14:45:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Rhone_3, Yves
14:45:44 [Zakim]
On IRC I see tomoyuki, morrita, npdoty, Yune_, edoyle, Shinji, divya, jcverdie, kotakagi, sakkuru, kensaku, trackbot, KenjiBX, darobin, Yves, adrianba_, Cyril, mjs, aizu,
14:45:44 [Zakim]
... MagnusOlsson, paul-huawei, sgodard, Arno, SimonPieters, shepazu, waynecarr
14:47:28 [npdoty]
Zakim, code?
14:47:28 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2012 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, npdoty
14:49:27 [smaug_]
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14:49:47 [rotsuya]
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14:50:22 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.214.aaaa
14:51:41 [tokamoto]
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14:51:43 [ArtB]
Scribe+ ArtB
14:51:48 [ArtB]
Topic: Shadow DOM
14:51:57 [timeless]
scribe: timeless
14:51:58 [a12u]
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14:51:59 [ArtB]
DG: [provides some history of the spec ...]
14:52:00 [kotakagi]
Present+ Koichi_Takagi
14:52:11 [timeless]
dglazkov: custom dom elements
14:52:17 [spoussa]
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14:52:19 [timeless]
... i started writing as a response to
14:52:25 [timeless]
... the needs from the mozilla folks
14:52:32 [timeless]
... who started implementing some of these things
14:52:40 [timeless]
... i felt i needed to start capturing requirements
14:52:49 [timeless]
... this spec is in the very early stages at this point
14:53:05 [timeless]
... for when people ask "how does this work"
14:53:11 [timeless]
... the shadow dom spec is in really good shape
14:53:22 [timeless]
... someone said "no plan survives contact with the enemy"
14:53:26 [yamaday]
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14:53:29 [timeless]
... in this case, the enemy is the users
14:53:38 [Yongrok]
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14:53:39 [timeless]
... we discover that we haven't thought about this/we haven't thought about that
14:53:51 [timeless]
... the other thing that can happen
14:53:56 [timeless]
... we tried to work w/ CSS WG a bit more
14:54:05 [timeless]
... there's a lot of concepts that bleed over from shadow dom into css
14:54:21 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
14:54:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
14:54:56 [timeless]
... currently some things are hard coded in shadow dom
14:54:57 [sgodard]
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14:55:04 [timeless]
... but i want to redefine it in terms of displayed content
14:55:10 [timeless]
... which will enable the text to disappear
14:55:31 [timeless]
... i'm going to let rafaelw cover html templates
14:55:43 [timeless]
rafaelw: html templates is a collaboration between google and microsoft
14:55:56 [timeless]
... trossi
14:55:58 [timeless]
... the <template> element is from the web components effort
14:56:06 [morrita]
s/displayed content/display: content/
14:56:10 [timeless]
... web applications need a way to declare a fragment of dom that isn't in use when the fragment loads
14:56:13 [timeless]
... but is used later
14:56:26 [timeless]
... this is important for declarative declaration of components
14:56:26 [adrianba]
14:56:32 [timeless]
... for declaring shadow dom
14:56:37 [timeless]
... we're pretty close to FPWD
14:56:45 [timeless]
... a majority of the work is going into validating the parser changes
14:56:56 [jaubourg]
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14:56:56 [timeless]
... there was a discussion about contextless parsing, or implied parsing
14:57:03 [timeless]
... there was a consensus about implied parsing
14:57:20 [timeless]
... the parser wouldn't have an explict context element
14:57:20 [timeless]
... it would choose it
14:57:31 [timeless]
... there seemed to be no dissent to doing this
14:57:43 [timeless]
... but there was an objection to an explicit api (document.parse)
14:57:47 [jcv]
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14:58:00 [timeless]
... the parser changes encapsulated changes are managed by the <template> element
14:58:08 [timeless]
... changing the parser itself may be controversial
14:58:19 [timeless]
... i'm not sure if people have questions about the <template> element
14:58:22 [timeless]
... there are two ideas
14:58:32 [timeless]
... one is accommodating this type of content
14:58:43 [timeless]
... the other is the concept of the content being inert
14:58:52 [timeless]
... the parser takes the content and makes it a document fragment
14:59:05 [timeless]
... hsivonen here?
14:59:08 [timeless]
hsivonen: yes
14:59:23 [timeless]
rafaelw: i know you had concerns
14:59:34 [timeless]
hsivonen: this is such a radical thing to do
15:00:27 [timeless]
... it's radically unusual to do this sort of thing
15:00:27 [timeless]
... where the markup and data structure no longer have the correspondence the DOM was designed to have
15:00:30 [timeless]
... DOM was designed to have an AST
15:00:49 [timeless]
... for XHTML
15:00:52 [timeless]
... we're breaking that
15:00:58 [timeless]
... not that i care about XHTML per se
15:01:04 [mjs]
15:01:12 [darobin]
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15:01:51 [Norbert]
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15:02:13 [annevk]
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15:02:45 [timeless]
mjs: how important is it to the goals of the <template> element
15:02:52 [timeless]
... is it to retain inline markup
15:02:58 [jfmoy]
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15:03:16 [timeless]
... it seems like the template could have a src= attribute, or a srcdoc= attribute
15:03:53 [timeless]
rafaelw: it's our opinion that it's worth doing
15:03:59 [timeless]
... we could imagine a future src= attribute
15:04:03 [a1zu]
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15:04:05 [timeless]
... srcdoc= is the more relevant proposal
15:04:09 [sicking]
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15:04:10 [mjs]
15:04:15 [timeless]
... that was brought up on the mailing list including CDATA
15:04:26 [timeless]
... none of those proposals offer a good combination of developer ergonomics
15:04:34 [timeless]
... recursively defined components
15:04:43 [timeless]
... a component that uses a templating mechanism
15:04:46 [hsivonen]
I want the above-parser impl to be the same for HTML and XHTML
15:04:54 [timeless]
... it's my feeling that it's worth doing
15:04:55 [timeless]
15:05:05 [timeless]
Travis: standing in for trossi
15:05:13 [timeless]
... i think our position is we don't care either way
15:05:19 [timeless]
ack mjs
15:05:20 [adrianba]
15:05:26 [timeless]
15:05:48 [timeless]
mjs: src[doc] solves the inert document question
15:06:10 [timeless]
... it's much easier to make a compatible polyfill model using js with src[doc]
15:06:11 [slightlyoff]
15:06:19 [timeless]
... you're creating a huge hazard for developers
15:06:30 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:06:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate timeless
15:06:45 [timeless]
... it's much easier to backfill this with js if you use src[doc]
15:06:59 [annevk]
15:07:22 [timeless]
slightlyoff: it's possible to use display:none
15:07:32 [timeless]
... and have rules about not having side-effect code
15:07:43 [mjs]
15:08:47 [timeless]
... there's a thing TemplateXZ which does this
15:09:05 [timeless]
slightlyoff: we don't need to preclude one by agreeing that the other is a good idea
15:09:16 [timeless]
s/+ alex_russell/+ alex_russell_(slightlyoff)/
15:09:40 [timeless]
hsivonen: for 2d / webgl, for perf reasons, people move to webgl
15:09:56 [timeless]
... for polyfill it isn't clear that the benefits outweigh the hacky thing
15:10:06 [timeless]
... people would rather use some new thing
15:10:17 [timeless]
... rather than something that works w/ ie10 w/in its support peroid
15:10:20 [timeless]
15:10:34 [timeless]
chaals: i get nervous about "new-that-breaks-backwards-compat"
15:10:46 [timeless]
slightlyoff: i'm not slightly sympathetic to that view
15:10:59 [timeless]
... it's microsoft's job to get their users off the old browsers
15:11:02 [timeless]
q+ chaals
15:11:07 [timeless]
ack slightlyoff
15:11:21 [timeless]
... we have library authors who are adamant that this is what they want
15:11:25 [timeless]
... document fragments don't do it
15:11:28 [Yuan]
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15:11:31 [timeless]
... EmberJS
15:11:46 [timeless]
15:11:54 [dglazkov]
15:11:58 [byungjung]
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15:12:06 [timeless]
pbakaus: i tend to agree
15:12:15 [timeless]
... perf characteristics should also be considered
15:12:25 [timeless]
... if not making it backwards compat gives a big win
15:12:26 [timeless]
... it's worth it
15:12:39 [timeless]
ack chaals
15:12:53 [timeless]
chaals: yandex has no sympathy with your view that people should force users to upgrade
15:13:01 [timeless]
... we ship content to most of russia
15:13:07 [timeless]
... and those users don't upgrade
15:13:15 [timeless]
... it costs us a boat-load when people change things
15:13:24 [timeless]
... if there's a way to avoid that
15:13:33 [timeless]
... and from a development perspective, it provides the functionality
15:13:37 [Hidetoshi]
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15:13:42 [timeless]
... then there's no question about which is right, and which is insane
15:13:49 [timeless]
... we all want every browser user to upgrade
15:13:51 [timeless]
... but they don't
15:13:57 [timeless]
... it costs us boatloads to assume they do
15:14:02 [timeless]
ack mjs
15:14:17 [timeless]
mjs: developer ergonomics has been cited as an important reason for this
15:14:26 [timeless]
... for components, it's assumed that components will be reusable
15:14:34 [timeless]
... is it really assumed that they'll be included inline
15:14:39 [timeless]
... instead of at a shared place
15:15:03 [timeless]
... rafaelw said we will have to break compatibility
15:15:07 [timeless]
... we might as do it now
15:15:09 [timeless]
... what's that
15:15:11 [timeless]
15:15:33 [timeless]
dglazkov: i'll answer
15:15:36 [hsivonen]
why aren't templates loaded via XHR?
15:15:38 [timeless]
... the compat concern
15:15:40 [morrita]
15:15:43 [timeless]
... is really serious and valuable
15:15:47 [timeless]
... the whole issue comes down to
15:15:50 [timeless]
... compatibility
15:16:00 [timeless]
... and making sure you can provide this content to old browsers as well
15:16:01 [hsivonen]
15:16:04 [timeless]
... and polyfill it
15:16:04 [JY]
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15:16:07 [timeless]
... you can develop a feature
15:16:08 [chaals]
q+ hallvord
15:16:12 [timeless]
... but this template feature
15:16:16 [Wonsuk]
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15:16:19 [timeless]
... srcdoc has bad regonomics
15:16:26 [divya1]
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15:16:27 [timeless]
... how do we balance this
15:16:33 [timeless]
... mjs asked about reusable components
15:16:50 [timeless]
... but if for every definition of components, i need to fetch some other file that defines this component, that's terrible
15:16:58 [timeless]
q+ chaals
15:17:08 [timeless]
... sure you should be able to split them up
15:17:12 [timeless]
... but that shouldn't be the only way
15:17:14 [JonathanJ]
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15:17:21 [timeless]
... compatibility seems to be a bug-a-bear
15:17:26 [timeless]
... what is actually going to break
15:17:30 [timeless]
... and what can we say "this is ok"
15:17:41 [timeless]
... as someone who wrote a polyfill for templates in web components
15:17:42 [Dewa]
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15:18:12 [kensaku]
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15:18:43 [timeless]
rafaelw: i didn't mean to imply that we need to break compat
15:18:49 [timeless]
dglazkov: i'm sorry i can't see your faces
15:18:59 [timeless]
... chaals you asked a philosophical question
15:18:59 [kensaku]
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15:19:02 [timeless]
[ scribe didn't minute it ]
15:19:06 [mjs]
15:19:10 [npdoty]
rafaelw: I didn't have some specific criterion/condition for why we would should break compatibility at this point in time
15:19:13 [timeless]
dglazkov: if we're breaking something, how badly are we breaking it
15:19:24 [mjs]
q+ to ask, if you can polyfill fine now, why do we need a new feature for inert dom?
15:19:27 [timeless]
rafaelw: aside from static documents
15:19:41 [timeless]
... most apps hide templates with some hack
15:19:48 [timeless]
... comments, text fields, ...
15:19:58 [timeless]
... we're not going to make life any better
15:20:04 [hallvord]
... script tags ...
15:20:12 [timeless]
... i don't think srcdoc is better than existing hacks
15:20:14 [kensaku_]
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15:20:18 [timeless]
... using <script> is better than that
15:20:18 [jeff]
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15:20:27 [timeless]
... pages keep content hidden, squirreled away somehow
15:20:37 [timeless]
... composing documents w/ innerHTML/script
15:20:54 [timeless]
... i don't think it should be controversial that there's an established need for something better than we have now
15:21:01 [timeless]
... it's my opinion that we've settled on something
15:21:08 [timeless]
... it does need something
15:21:14 [timeless]
... parser changes
15:21:24 [timeless]
chaals: there's no disagreement that we need the functionality
15:21:30 [timeless]
... the question is how we get it
15:21:39 [timeless]
... is there anyone who says "we don't need <template>ing"
15:21:41 [timeless]
15:21:45 [timeless]
[ no one ]
15:21:52 [timeless]
hallvord: re: breaking back-compat
15:22:01 [timeless]
... what's the oldest computer in your circle of family/friends
15:22:12 [timeless]
... when we should develop the web
15:22:20 [timeless]
... we should accommodate them
15:22:34 [timeless]
slightlyoff: there are semantics we need to put into the platform
15:22:44 [timeless]
... are there semantics we need to put into the browser
15:22:49 [timeless]
... we can auto update those browsers
15:22:52 [timeless]
ack morrita
15:23:02 [timeless]
morrita: why can't we extend
15:23:11 [timeless]
chaals: we all accept we need <template>ing
15:23:34 [timeless]
q- dglazkov
15:23:36 [timeless]
ack hsivonen
15:23:45 [timeless]
hsivonen: srcdoc= erognomics are bad
15:23:52 [kensaku]
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15:23:57 [timeless]
... and pages use <script>template-inline-here</script>
15:24:01 [timeless]
... we have XHR
15:24:04 [hallvord]
15:24:06 [timeless]
... which works in all browsers
15:24:19 [timeless]
... why don't we specify templates be external resources loaded via xhr
15:24:29 [timeless]
... considering we want script/css in external files
15:24:44 [timeless]
... for paving a cowpath, it seems people want to put this inline
15:24:49 [timeless]
... why don't we want to use XHR for this?
15:24:58 [timeless]
rafaelw: that has a terrible perf profile
15:25:11 [timeless]
... production web sites go to great lengths not to break up pages
15:25:11 [pbakaus]
I agree with rafaelw
15:25:25 [timeless]
... it's important to use inline declared content
15:25:30 [Hidetoshi]
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15:25:32 [divya]
divya has joined #webapps
15:25:39 [timeless]
... it's a non starter to say all content is remotely sourced
15:25:46 [timeless]
q+ to ask about HTTP2
15:25:54 [timeless]
chaals: i buy the perf argument
15:26:03 [timeless]
... the dev ergonomics argument is harder
15:26:11 [timeless]
... the yandex BEM library
15:26:23 [timeless]
... (used by our biggest competitor as well)
15:26:27 [timeless]
... sources things externally
15:26:36 [timeless]
... if we started out by bringing templates in w/ srcdoc
15:26:50 [timeless]
... and we then said "it'd be really cool if we could drop this in line"
15:26:56 [pbakaus]
15:26:57 [timeless]
... could we get consensus sooner
15:26:59 [timeless]
ack chaals
15:27:05 [sicking]
15:27:10 [timeless]
ack mjs
15:27:10 [Zakim]
mjs, you wanted to ask, if you can polyfill fine now, why do we need a new feature for inert dom?
15:27:20 [jaubourg]
15:27:41 [kensaku]
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15:27:44 [timeless]
mjs: that needs to be a huge win given the acknowledged high cost
15:27:53 [timeless]
... what are the downsides of <Script type=non-standard>
15:28:01 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:28:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
15:28:02 [timeless]
... we could make <script type=standard>
15:28:05 [timeless]
ack me
15:28:05 [Zakim]
timeless, you wanted to ask about HTTP2
15:28:46 [chaals]
timeless: Developers void splitting content to save load time. If we had HTTP2 that solved that issue, would it be better.
15:28:59 [timeless]
q+ rafaelw
15:29:04 [timeless]
ack pbakaus
15:29:11 [timeless]
pbakaus: we can't live with a solution that requires XHR
15:29:22 [timeless]
... the games we're building require complete inlining
15:29:28 [timeless]
... to the extent of a single request
15:29:31 [timeless]
... on mobile
15:29:51 [timeless]
ack sicking
15:30:04 [timeless]
q+ to ask about <script> v. <script src>
15:30:06 [mjs]
q+ dglazkov
15:30:14 [hsivonen]
15:30:15 [timeless]
sicking: it seems provable that people can use external
15:30:22 [timeless]
... but they use inline hacks
15:30:31 [darobin]
+1 to jonas
15:30:32 [timeless]
... we might as well not do anything at all if that's the solution we're advocating
15:30:38 [timeless]
ack jaubourg
15:30:44 [timeless]
jaubourg: it seems like a tooling issue
15:30:49 [timeless]
... consider <script>
15:30:54 [timeless]
... you have tools to handle dependencies
15:31:02 [timeless]
... in development you can external resources
15:31:02 [sicking]
15:31:11 [timeless]
... in production you inline scripts to a single file
15:31:28 [timeless]
... if you had a tool that could do the concatentation
15:31:35 [pbakaus]
15:31:39 [timeless]
... if you had a script to fetch external/do inline
15:31:42 [timeless]
15:31:46 [timeless]
ack rafaelw
15:31:59 [timeless]
rafaelw: if we had HTTP2, would that address the external resource latency issue
15:32:05 [timeless]
... i'm not sure the status of HTTP2
15:32:17 [timeless]
... if external latency wasn't a problem, then would it not be a problem
15:32:32 [timeless]
mjs: what's the problem w/ <script type=random-mime-type>
15:32:53 [timeless]
rafaelw: script tokenization stops when it sees </script>
15:33:01 [timeless]
... which means you can't have recursive templates
15:33:20 [timeless]
... to embed a <script> in your template
15:33:25 [timeless]
... they break the script into two tokens
15:33:35 [timeless]
... hitting </script> in the script token ends the script token
15:33:44 [timeless]
mjs: with some small amount of escaping, you could address that
15:33:45 [ericu]
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15:34:06 [timeless]
timeless: we have today <\/script>
15:34:14 [timeless]
rafaelw: you're asking if we can stick with what we have
15:34:32 [timeless]
... slightlyoff mentioned it's painful
15:34:40 [timeless]
mjs: is the pain-point lack of built in
15:34:42 [slightlyoff]
...and the frameworks vendors agree
15:34:44 [tpacbot]
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15:34:50 [timeless]
... or is it the escaping
15:35:02 [timeless]
mjs: i believe that having to roll their own templating
15:35:07 [timeless]
... reguardless of the syntax
15:35:11 [chaals]
15:35:14 [chaals]
15:35:14 [kotakagi]
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15:35:14 [timeless]
... but if we had a defined script type
15:35:29 [timeless]
... would just the need to escape </script> be such a pain point?
15:35:31 [timeless]
... i'm skeptical
15:35:41 [timeless]
rafaelw: my sense is it's pretty painful
15:36:01 [timeless]
... i'd let yehuda katz and mishko (angular) speak for themselves
15:36:19 [timeless]
Zakim, close queue
15:36:19 [Zakim]
ok, timeless, the speaker queue is closed
15:36:22 [timeless]
ack me
15:36:22 [Zakim]
timeless, you wanted to ask about <script> v. <script src>
15:36:26 [slightlyoff]
Lachy: wait, what?
15:36:30 [slightlyoff]
are you actually kidding?
15:36:33 [nkic]
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15:36:35 [slightlyoff]
I think you're trolling
15:37:03 [jcverdie_]
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15:37:13 [timeless]
timeless: <script> was inline first
15:37:18 [Lachy]
slightlyoff, no. It's one little extra character that authors would have to type. How is it hard? It's already needed when doing things like document.write("<script …><\/script>");
15:37:19 [timeless]
... and <script src> was added later
15:37:31 [timeless]
... but i think that 80-95% is now <script src>
15:37:39 [MikeSmith]
s/mishko/Miško Hevery/
15:37:43 [timeless]
dglazkov: pending a polyfill for feature
15:37:47 [mjs]
SimonPieters: you could probably design it so only a single level of escaping is needed regardless of nesting
15:37:48 [annevk]
<\/script> is shorter than </template> :p
15:37:51 [timeless]
... angular/Ember.js
15:38:02 [timeless]
... they have a specific UC
15:38:04 [slightlyoff]
timeless: I think you're also wrong about this. Most script tags are ads, and they tend to marry inline/out-of-band <script> elements = )
15:38:11 [timeless]
... it's hard to do one that's universal
15:38:32 [ericu]
artb I'm about to call in.
15:38:34 [timeless]
... polyfills are never 100% faithful
15:38:46 [mjs]
SimonPieters: the escaping is only needed to be compatible with legacy <script> parsing, not fundamentally for a hypothetical <script type=template>
15:38:52 [timeless]
... we have views of breaking compat as the general
15:39:07 [timeless]
... i know rafaelw studied this and there's very little that actually changes
15:39:12 [timeless]
... most still works
15:39:22 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.865.aabb
15:39:35 [chaals]
15:39:45 [ericu]
artb, I can hear you now.
15:39:45 [chaals]
ack dglazkov
15:39:46 [annevk]
mjs: change end tag parsing based on an attribute value? o_O
15:39:48 [timeless]
... throw someone if they suggest XHR agian
15:39:52 [timeless]
15:40:00 [timeless]
... we could solve everything with escaping
15:40:01 [mjs]
annevk: not sure how that follows?
15:40:05 [Norbert]
Norbert has joined #webapps
15:40:10 [timeless]
... but people don't always remember to escape
15:40:31 [pbakaus]
15:40:34 [aklein]
mjs: I think annevk is asking how the parser finds the end-tag in <script type=template> parsing
15:40:46 [mjs]
annevk: <script type=template><script type=template><script type=template><\/script><\/script></script>
15:40:59 [timeless]
chaals: calling you on this, it's a sales pitch
15:41:04 [annevk]
mjs: right that uses the escaping
15:41:09 [mjs]
annevk: nothing about that needs to change existing parsing based on an attribute
15:41:10 [chaals]
ack hsi
15:41:13 [timeless]
hsivonen: people who write libraries
15:41:17 [mjs]
annevk: yeah but you don't need to double-escape the innermost one
15:41:22 [mjs]
annevk: that
15:41:24 [timeless]
... if this feature was available
15:41:26 [annevk]
mjs: oh
15:41:27 [mjs]
that is all I meant
15:41:29 [timeless]
... would they stop using <script>?
15:41:31 [annevk]
15:41:46 [timeless]
... i have the bad feeling that balancing the new feature / availability
15:41:53 [timeless]
... the compat tends to win over inconvenience
15:42:02 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:42:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
15:42:18 [MikeSmith]
15:42:20 [timeless]
... do we believe that yehuda/ Miško would break compat
15:42:23 [timeless]
ack SimonPieters
15:42:26 [MikeSmith]
ack sicking
15:42:29 [timeless]
ack sicking
15:42:37 [timeless]
sicking: re: HTTP2, it only solves additional overhead
15:42:44 [timeless]
... for requests
15:43:02 [mjs]
sicking, it can solve extra round trip latency b/c it lets the server push resources it thinks are needed
15:43:06 [slightlyoff]
hsivonen: this is absolutely the wrong question. Holding a feature that can help the future out to the idea that some vendor will adopt it *immediately* is standards judo of the worst sort.
15:43:11 [timeless]
ack pbakaus
15:43:20 [timeless]
pbakaus: almost everything can be solved in terms of tooling
15:43:30 [morrita]
maybe <template> could be just an alias of <script> to avoid escaping?
15:43:32 [timeless]
... building tools is extremely hard
15:43:50 [timeless]
... we did it
15:43:52 [slightlyoff]
making the world safe for new features need not be held up by current practice
15:43:53 [timeless]
... but not everyone can
15:43:59 [timeless]
... we want standards everyone can use
15:44:21 [timeless]
chaals: spend some time tonight w/ beer to talk about this w/ someone who doesn't agree
15:44:27 [ArtB]
zakim, who is here?
15:44:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Rhone_3, Yves, +1.650.214.aaaa, +1.415.865.aabb
15:44:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Norbert, nkic, kotakagi, tpacbot, ericu, kensaku, divya, Hidetoshi, Dewa, JonathanJ, Wonsuk, JY, byungjung, sicking, a1zu, jfmoy, annevk, darobin, jaubourg, sgodard,
15:44:28 [Zakim]
... Yongrok, yamaday, spoussa, tokamoto, rotsuya, smaug, tomoyuki
15:44:29 [timeless]
... the market will determine what's used
15:44:38 [timeless]
Zakim, where is +1650
15:44:38 [Zakim]
timeless, I do not see a party named 'where'. If you meant to ask a question you need to add '?'
15:44:44 [jaubourg]
pbakaus: I was talking about tooling to transform tags that link to external resources into a tag with content inline. I know <template> is needed. I was just telling that people are inlining right now because tooling is hard, liike you said
15:44:44 [timeless]
Zakim, where is +1415?
15:44:45 [Zakim]
North American dialing code 1.415 is California
15:44:46 [timeless]
Zakim, where is +1650?
15:44:46 [Zakim]
North American dialing code 1.650 is California
15:44:48 [timeless]
15:44:53 [timeless]
Zakim, open the queue
15:44:53 [Zakim]
ok, timeless, the speaker queue is open
15:44:54 [sicking]
mjs: the server needs to know about it to solve the roundtrip issue. I think it's also the case that the way it works is that the server can "pre recommend" that the client downloads a resource, but the client stil has to request it. But I'm not sure that that works
15:44:54 [ArtB]
zakim, aabb is EricU
15:44:54 [Zakim]
+EricU; got it
15:45:26 [timeless]
timeless: i'm pretty sure that the server can actually send the resource too instead of just recommending it
15:45:34 [timeless]
topic: File * APIs
15:45:36 [Zakim]
- +1.650.214.aaaa
15:45:49 [jfmoy]
jfmoy has left #webapps
15:45:50 [timeless]
Zakim, who is on the call?
15:45:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Rhone_3, Yves, EricU
15:46:07 [timeless]
ericu: about the file system api
15:46:11 [mjs]
sicking, I suppose it could change but I don't believe that's how it works in the current SPDY protocol
15:46:14 [timeless]
... there's been discussion about note tracking it
15:46:18 [timeless]
... two questions
15:46:20 [chaals]
zakim, open the queue
15:46:20 [Zakim]
ok, chaals, the speaker queue is open
15:46:29 [timeless]
... is there a quorum of browser vendors likely to implement at all
15:46:34 [timeless]
... if not, then note track
15:46:38 [timeless]
.. if so, we should keep talking
15:46:41 [timeless]
... if there's interest
15:46:42 [arunranga]
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15:46:52 [hallvord]
slightlyoff: more features = more complexity, more features = less back-compat - this is always a tradeoff. So we need to look carefully at how much value new features provide.
15:46:56 [timeless]
... should we move forward, throw away + start over w/ sicking / mjs's proposals
15:47:04 [sicking]
15:47:04 [timeless]
... or try to evolve current work to something near proposal
15:47:17 [mjs]
15:47:18 [slightlyoff]
hallvord: I think that's just absolutely the wrong perspective: folks are building this stuff the hard, slow, expensive way
15:47:21 [timeless]
adrianba: we'll never say never
15:47:29 [timeless]
... but right now we don't see the file system api as a high priority
15:47:34 [timeless]
... we focused on indexeddb
15:47:38 [jgraham]
15:47:42 [timeless]
... making sure you can store blob data there
15:47:52 [hsivonen]
sicking: I believe SPDY allows a response before request, so the server could send *everything* over when the initial request has been made
15:47:53 [timeless]
... right now, making sure that's an adequate solution
15:47:58 [kinuko]
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15:48:05 [timeless]
timeless: what hsivonen said
15:48:11 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.294.aacc
15:48:21 [timeless]
ericu: could a file system api provide photos directory access?
15:48:25 [timeless]
adrianba: not from the browser
15:48:33 [arunranga]
Zakim, aacc is arunranga
15:48:33 [Zakim]
+arunranga; got it
15:48:33 [timeless]
chaals: anyone want to speak in favor of it?
15:48:45 [timeless]
bryan: this is the file system directory apis?
15:48:50 [sicking]
hsivonen: mjs: timeless: Ok, appears I was wrong and "full" server push is supported.
15:48:53 [SteveH]
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15:49:03 [timeless]
ericu: right, directory api + writer
15:49:14 [timeless]
bryan: writer w/o reading is useless
15:49:34 [timeless]
bryan: browsers will need to be able to store hundreds of files and gb's of data
15:49:39 [hallvord]
slightlyoff: you're saying we should never be asking "how hard now? / how much easier tomorrow?" for a new feature? You see no trade-offs to be made at all? ;-)
15:49:56 [chaals]
ack sick
15:49:56 [timeless]
sicking: simple answer is indexeddb supports any amount/number of files
15:50:04 [adrianba]
s/not from the browser/not from the browser, at least in the short term/
15:50:10 [timeless]
... any file stored in indexeddb in firefox today
15:50:14 [timeless]
... is stored as an actual file
15:50:14 [slightlyoff]
hallvord: trying to engagine you in PM but you're not responding there. Are you auth'd?
15:50:24 [timeless]
... we haven't optimized for all cases yet, but that's something we'll work on
15:50:34 [jgraham]
15:50:40 [jeff]
jeff has joined #webapps
15:50:48 [pbakaus]
15:50:53 [timeless]
sicking: i don't believe it's possible to evolve the current file system proposal from google into something like mjs/my proposal
15:50:57 [timeless]
... i like mjs's proposal
15:51:13 [timeless]
... it's possible to evolve that proposal
15:51:21 [timeless]
... mozilla's proposal supports doing small writes to files
15:51:26 [timeless]
... mjs asked if there's UCs for that
15:51:34 [timeless]
... we should provide use cases for that, i believe they exist
15:51:42 [timeless]
... there were other proposals which allowed incremental writing
15:51:55 [timeless]
... mozilla's proposal has atomic writing
15:52:00 [timeless]
... unix's doesn't have this
15:52:07 [timeless]
... ms got this right
15:52:09 [jwheare]
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15:52:15 [SteveH]
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15:52:15 [timeless]
... we don't have good locking mechanisms on the web
15:52:32 [timeless]
... i'd like something with the same capabilities as mozilla's
15:52:33 [MikeSmith]
15:52:36 [ericu]
q+ ericu
15:52:37 [timeless]
... but not tied to that api
15:52:44 [timeless]
mjs: my proposal supports incremental writing
15:52:45 [MikeSmith]
ack mjs
15:52:51 [timeless]
... but it could be simplified if it wasn't needed
15:53:03 [timeless]
mjs: interest in file system apis in general
15:53:07 [timeless]
... my own opinion
15:53:13 [timeless]
... not necessarily apple's
15:53:19 [jcverdie]
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15:53:21 [timeless]
... we've added too damn many storage apis to the web platform
15:53:24 [timeless]
... i'd much prefer to see
15:53:36 [timeless]
... if there's a short list of features not available to indexeddb
15:53:39 [timeless]
... let's add them there
15:53:45 [timeless]
... if there's a reason that's impossible
15:53:53 [timeless]
.. let's try to create something minimal
15:54:01 [timeless]
15:54:09 [timeless]
... it's much easier to take something too simple and add
15:54:12 [timeless]
... than to subtract
15:54:13 [SimonPieters]
I agree with mjs, FTR
15:54:22 [MikeSmith]
ack pbakaus
15:54:23 [timeless]
pbakaus: we're fine w/ either approach
15:54:24 [chaals]
ak pb
15:54:25 [timeless]
... i can't w/ indexedb
15:54:30 [timeless]
... is local file protocol handlers
15:54:36 [sicking]
15:54:41 [mjs]
15:54:43 [timeless]
... to be able to use a file in <script src>/<style src>
15:54:51 [timeless]
ericu: i think most of what i had in mind is covered
15:54:52 [timeless]
ack ericu
15:54:59 [timeless]
ericu: you can store large files in indexeddb
15:55:05 [timeless]
... chrome doesn't have blobs yet, but we will
15:55:16 [timeless]
... large mutable data in indexeddb isn't appropriate
15:55:25 [timeless]
... transactions on gb's of data is painful
15:55:31 [timeless]
... sicking has a proposal
15:55:44 [timeless]
... i don't see an efficient way to deal w/ large mutable blobs in indexeddb
15:55:55 [timeless]
... a file system api is the only proposal that addresses that
15:55:55 [timeless]
ack sicking
15:56:04 [timeless]
sicking: indexeddb doesn't support large mutable files
15:56:21 [timeless]
... i have a proposal for that -- not super clean, but it definitely works
15:56:33 [timeless]
... the other is file system protocol handler
15:56:39 [timeless]
... i haven't thought of a clean way to do it
15:56:43 [timeless]
... but it's technically possible
15:56:48 [timeless]
... something we can explore
15:57:01 [timeless]
... if we add this to indexeddb, it won't be super clean
15:57:06 [timeless]
... but it's something we can explore
15:57:23 [timeless]
mjs: externally referenceable blobs as a feature
15:57:33 [timeless]
... then we should put it into indexeddb
15:57:34 [MikeSmith]
15:57:40 [MikeSmith]
ack mjs
15:57:51 [bryan]
If we have the ability to layer a virtual filesystem capability on IndexedDB via JavaScript, at least for non-mutable large blobs, at least that provides a means to develop implementations for the media gallery and offline content storage use cases, and would be a step in the right direction.
15:57:51 [timeless]
... and large mutable blobs
15:57:55 [timeless]
... likewise
15:58:10 [plh]
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15:58:23 [timeless]
chaals: how many file system hands in webapps?
15:58:46 [timeless]
... darobin, pbakaus, jaubourg, spoussa
15:58:54 [timeless]
... maybe half a dozen people here
15:59:12 [timeless]
... eric, if you're prepared to keep editing, i'm not prepared to throw you on note
15:59:24 [slightlyoff]
OH HAI arunranga
15:59:43 [timeless]
chaals: who's interested in the current file spec?
15:59:54 [timeless]
... ericu, do you want to vote?
16:00:07 [odinho_]
s/OH HAI arunranga//
16:00:09 [timeless]
chaals: i'd like to work on sicking 's suggestions (locking), and possibly strip it down
16:00:12 [bryan]
I would still prefer the File* APIs remain REC track until the IndexedDB alternative is proven feasible through testing of available implementations.
16:00:15 [timeless]
16:00:19 [timeless]
pbakaus: i'd like to say...
16:00:25 [timeless]
... indexeddb or filesystem
16:00:31 [timeless]
... the abstract concept of working with files
16:00:33 [timeless]
... is good
16:00:43 [timeless]
... if we can do that in indexeddb as well, then i'm totally happy
16:00:53 [ericu]
timeless, I talked about stripping down the current API towards the Mozilla proposal, not strip down Mozilla's.
16:00:55 [timeless]
chaals: it sounds like we should suggest that you make a file system spec
16:01:37 [timeless]
chaals: should we drop the work item, and just do something on top of indexeddb
16:02:26 [timeless]
timeless: it seems like the simplest thing is a spec for making indexeddb referencable objects from uri's for use in script-src/style-src
16:02:39 [timeless]
sicking: it seems like the support can't be lower
16:02:52 [timeless]
... i'm not sure about the official cut off is
16:03:04 [timeless]
chaals: i'm not reading any support for the spec as is
16:03:17 [timeless]
chaals: i'm not seeing any support for the spec as is
16:04:16 [timeless]
pbakaus: many people agree on the feature spec
16:04:16 [timeless]
... is it one spec that covers everything
16:04:16 [timeless]
... that covers db and stuff
16:04:16 [timeless]
... or multiple specs
16:04:35 [timeless]
chaals: i don't see the consensus to just stop work on that
16:04:39 [jwheare]
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16:04:51 [timeless]
... that'd be a thing via a CfC
16:05:02 [timeless]
mjs: one option is to tombstone the current draft
16:05:14 [timeless]
... and then give people the opportunity to offer a counter proposal
16:05:23 [timeless]
... which would probably be a delete and replace
16:05:23 [bryan]
16:05:32 [timeless]
... i'm not sure if ericu is willing to do that
16:05:38 [timeless]
ericu: obviously there's no support for the current draft
16:05:54 [timeless]
... i'm interested in iterating the current draft to what sicking is suggesting
16:06:21 [timeless]
... sounds like sicking isn't expecting me to iterate far enough close to his draft
16:06:36 [timeless]
sicking: it seems implausible that it can be iterated
16:06:42 [timeless]
... it seems better with a replace than a modify
16:07:11 [MikeSmith]
16:07:11 [timeless]
bryan: with indexeddb as i could with filesystem
16:07:23 [timeless]
... would apps with different origins have access to the same indexeddb?
16:07:26 [timeless]
chaals: file systems can be shared
16:07:48 [timeless]
... maybe we should keep the idea alive?
16:07:56 [timeless]
jgraham: my view is similar to mjs's view
16:08:02 [timeless]
... we've invented a lot of storage apis
16:08:05 [timeless]
... so far they've been really bad
16:08:11 [hiro]
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16:08:14 [timeless]
... let's work on the one we have that we haven't proven to be really bad
16:08:19 [timeless]
... before we spec a new one
16:08:26 [timeless]
... let's let authors build on top of indexeddb
16:08:30 [timeless]
... and let them build interfaces
16:08:38 [timeless]
... and see if we can steal their api/concepts
16:08:43 [miketaylr]
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16:08:50 [timeless]
chaals: you're too late
16:08:56 [timeless]
... we have started specing file system apis
16:09:03 [ericu]
q+ ericu
16:09:06 [timeless]
... we even specified them in the 70s
16:09:22 [timeless]
paulc: some of us are older than...
16:09:24 [MikeSmith]
ack bryan
16:09:25 [timeless]
[ laughter ]
16:09:31 [timeless]
chaals: adding 47 apis just because we can
16:09:38 [timeless]
timeless: that's what sysapps is for
16:09:49 [timeless]
jgraham: it's about creating another legacy which is bad
16:09:53 [timeless]
... we've had 3 different proposals
16:10:01 [timeless]
... which have had varying levels of support
16:10:10 [timeless]
... unless there's something really compelling that we had to do yesterday
16:10:13 [timeless]
... i don't think there is
16:10:26 [timeless]
chaals: js libraries don't have access to the file system
16:10:52 [timeless]
jgraham: but they will make apis on top of indexeddb to pretend to be a file
16:11:21 [timeless]
timeless: i suspect we could see apps written using DnD support + indexeddb to emulate the file system
16:11:38 [bryan]
does someone have links to any javascript-based indexedDB filesystems that anyone is currently playing with? If it's a good and feasible idea, then surely someone is trying to do it.
16:11:44 [timeless]
pbakaus: let's keep the feature set of the current file system
16:12:07 [timeless]
slightlyoff: we should stop iterating
16:12:14 [timeless]
... because we got it wrong last time
16:12:17 [bryan]
i can't find anything on the web of a similar nature using indexeddb.
16:12:18 [timeless]
... seems like a bad argument
16:12:29 [timeless]
jgraham: that's not the argument i was making
16:12:34 [jcverdie]
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16:12:36 [timeless]
... once we do something, it's fixed in stone
16:12:39 [timeless]
... it's very hard to change
16:12:46 [timeless]
... when a js library makes something
16:12:53 [timeless]
... it can make it look like a file
16:12:56 [timeless]
... and design things
16:13:18 [slightlyoff]
timeless: that's not what I said
16:13:26 [slightlyoff]
I said that we *shouldn't* stop iterating
16:14:19 [slightlyoff]
also, I object that there is equivalence between what JS libraries will do with an API vs. exposing a new fundamental capability
16:14:26 [timeless]
chaals: how many people think we should keep working on the current file system api?
16:14:27 [slightlyoff]
they're different orders or magnitude in change
16:15:01 [timeless]
[ 12 ]
16:15:20 [timeless]
chaals: how many people think we should ask ericu to stop working, and then wait for a new editor?
16:15:42 [timeless]
[ around 12 ]
16:16:00 [timeless]
chaals: ericu, you're welcome to keep working on this
16:16:05 [timeless]
... if we get someone to edit another proposal
16:16:09 [timeless]
... put the two up
16:16:13 [timeless]
... and ask the group to choose
16:16:20 [timeless]
... is that an outcome people would be happy with?
16:16:36 [timeless]
[ 15 ]
16:17:03 [timeless]
chaals: the number of people in the room change faster than the number of questions
16:17:12 [Zakim]
16:17:14 [timeless]
shepazu: seems clear we want some sort of file system api
16:17:55 [timeless]
timeless: you could create a competing one for yourself
16:18:14 [timeless]
ArtB: arunranga is on the call
16:18:18 [timeless]
topic: File Reader API
16:18:49 [timeless]
chaals: darobin was going to ship this in 2006
16:18:55 [timeless]
arunranga: fileapi is done
16:19:02 [timeless]
... but there's a question of auto-revoke
16:19:25 [timeless]
... auto-revoke of Blob URIs is a question
16:20:12 [timeless]
... there's a question where to put auto-revoke of Blob URIs with the HTML5 spec
16:20:18 [timeless]
... microtask checkpoints
16:20:22 [timeless]
... i think we're around the corner from it
16:20:57 [timeless]
... i think discussing it on the list makes sense
16:21:00 [adrianba]
16:21:03 [timeless]
chaals: so there's one outstanding issue
16:21:05 [timeless]
q- ericu
16:21:58 [timeless]
arunranga: ms2ger wrote a nice test suite
16:22:07 [timeless]
ArtB: anyone want to add something to the test suite?
16:22:09 [timeless]
chaals: please?
16:22:23 [timeless]
chaals: krisk just volunteered to add to the test suite
16:22:37 [timeless]
ack adrianba
16:22:44 [timeless]
adrianba: i wanted to mention one other issue
16:22:55 [timeless]
... events that fire for file reader
16:23:03 [timeless]
... file reader is designed to be reusable
16:23:09 [timeless]
... you can call read() on an instance
16:23:15 [timeless]
... and then call again() on that instance
16:23:19 [timeless]
... assuming one isn't pending
16:23:31 [timeless]
... there's discussion on the list about which events to fire
16:23:31 [jgraham]
We might have more tests
16:23:43 [timeless]
... if you call read() during load/XXZ
16:23:57 [timeless]
... there's a question of what to do
16:24:09 [timeless]
... our proposal is to not fire load-end for the first() read if there's a second read() outstanding
16:24:22 [timeless]
arunranga: the last i remember of that discussion
16:24:33 [timeless]
... we set it up so you couldn't call read() multiple times
16:24:38 [timeless]
... it would throw an exception
16:24:46 [timeless]
... if that isn't resolved adequately...
16:25:07 [timeless]
adrianba: i thought that resolution was for if you tried to call read() while there's a second read()
16:26:11 [timeless]
timeless: is this read() triggers load... loadend, and there's a chance of calling read() after the last load fired but before loadend ?
16:26:22 [timeless]
pbakaus: maybe we could discuss archive reader tomorrow?
16:26:39 [timeless]
chaals: toss it on the agenda wiki
16:26:47 [timeless]
... thank you very much
16:26:52 [timeless]
... thanks to timeless for scribing
16:26:54 [timeless]
[ applause ]
16:26:57 [ericu]
pbakaus I won't be on tomorrow, but any reason you can't do that in javascript?
16:27:13 [timeless]
chaals: we resume tomorrow @ 9 am
16:27:15 [pbakaus]
uh – I think it's simply not fast
16:27:16 [Zakim]
16:27:18 [timeless]
[ adjourned ]
16:27:31 [Hidetoshi]
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Jungkee has left #webapps
16:27:34 [Zakim]
16:27:38 [trackbot]
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16:27:41 [ericu]
pbakaus try it and see if it's too slow, use that as a proof of utility?
16:27:41 [timeless]
trackbot end meeting
16:27:42 [pbakaus]
ericu: to elaborate, a JS based solution is probably too slow for general purpose
16:27:51 [timeless]
s/trackbot end meeting//
16:27:53 [timeless]
trackbot, end meeting
16:27:53 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:27:53 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Rhone_3, Yves, +1.650.214.aaaa, +1.415.865.aabb, EricU, +1.415.294.aacc, arunranga
16:28:01 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:28:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:28:02 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:28:02 [RRSAgent]
I see 9 open action items saved in :
16:28:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Charles start the process to move Widget Updates to Candidate Recommendation [1]
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recorded in
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ACTION: Travis create an ED of DOM4 Events [2]
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recorded in
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ACTION: Barstow work with Travis on a CfC for DOM3 Events Candidate [3]
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recorded in
16:28:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow follow up with Kinuko Yasuda on status and plan for Quota Management API [4]
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recorded in
16:28:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow work with Jong-Heun Lee to start a RfR Web Storage test suite [5]
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recorded in
16:28:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow work with PLH on an announcement seeking IRC fragments [6]
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recorded in
16:28:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow start a Call for Review for Web IDL test plan on public-script-coord [7]
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16:28:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow work with Opera Websocket tester(s) on a Request for Review of their web socket tests [8]
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recorded in
16:28:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: rafael provide feedback on Push API [9]
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recorded in
16:28:16 [KenjiBX]
passionate it was :-)
16:28:45 [rotsuya]
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