07:56:00 RRSAgent has joined #webapps 07:56:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-irc 07:56:19 zcorpan has joined #webapps 07:56:36 Meeting: WebApps f2f Meeting 07:56:41 Date: 29 October 2012 07:56:50 Chair: Art, Charles 07:56:55 Scribe: Josh 07:57:01 ScribeNick: timeless 07:57:11 timeless has changed the topic to: http://irc.w3.org #webapps 07:57:23 timeless has changed the topic to: http://irc.w3.org #webapps TPAC 2012 WebApps F2F 07:57:29 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/TPAC2012Meeting 07:57:35 RRSAgent, draft minutes 07:57:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless 07:57:37 Present: Art_Barstow 07:57:39 adrianba has joined #webapps 07:57:44 jaubourg has joined #webapps 07:57:51 present+ timeless 07:57:59 krisk has joined #webapps 07:58:06 morrita has joined #webapps 07:58:18 RRSAgent, make logs public 07:58:21 RRSAgent, draft minutes 07:58:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless 07:58:24 tobie has joined #webapps 07:58:40 s/present+ timeless/present+ Josh_Soref/ 07:58:44 RRSAgent, draft minutes 07:58:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless 07:59:10 present+ Bryan_Sullivan 07:59:10 s/Scribe: Josh/Scribe: Josh_Soref/ 07:59:14 RRSAgent, draft minutes 07:59:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless 07:59:32 npdoty has joined #webapps 08:00:27 Yoshihiro has joined #webapps 08:00:54 present+ Odin_Hoerthe_Omdal 08:01:21 KenjiBX has joined #webapps 08:01:25 aklein has joined #webapps 08:01:46 nsakai2 has joined #webapps 08:01:59 Present+ chaals 08:02:08 present+ Julian_Aubourg 08:02:16 takoratta has joined #webapps 08:02:24 present+ Adam_Klein 08:02:58 takuya has joined #webapps 08:03:05 bhu4 has joined #webapps 08:03:27 topic: Introductions 08:03:36 dnkim has joined #webapps 08:03:37 present+ jgraham 08:03:52 chaals: welcome to webapps, everybody 08:03:53 [ Applause ] 08:04:01 ArtB: we're happy to be here 08:04:02 Oh has joined #webapps 08:04:07 present+ zcorpan 08:04:13 chaals: in IETF, they have the hum, we get the W3C clap 08:04:20 ... this is a big meeting 08:04:30 rafaelw has joined #webapps 08:04:32 ... we're going to be really strict about making you Join Queues 08:04:36 ... and use the microphone 08:04:44 ... I'm Charles 08:04:53 ... the first thing i'm going to do is ask everyone to introduce themselves 08:05:08 ... say who you are, where you work, and if you have any particular spec that interests you 08:05:19 ... I'm Charles, I work for Yandex, i'm interested in just about everything 08:05:37 shepazu: I'm Doug Sheppers, I'm one of 2 w3c staff contacts 08:05:52 krisk: Kris, Microsoft, testing 08:05:55 BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM has joined #webapps 08:06:14 tlr has joined #webapps 08:06:29 paul has joined #webapps 08:06:37 Present+ adrianba 08:06:42 adrianba: Adrian Bateman, Microsoft, I'm interested 08:06:46 pbakaus has joined #webapps 08:06:46 efullea has joined #webapps 08:06:56 KenjiBX has joined #webapps 08:06:56 Bo_Chen has joined #WebApps 08:06:58 BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM: Bo Hu, China Unicom, i'm interested in Push API 08:07:19 Bo_Chen: Bo Chen, China Unicom, i'm interested in this WG and related groups 08:07:30 Yuan has joined #webapps 08:07:35 ArtB: Art Barstow, Co-chair with chaals, Nokia, all specs 08:07:52 timeless: Josh Soren, from RIM, not yet a member of the WG 08:08:02 shepazu has joined #webapps 08:08:08 pbakaus: Paul Bakaus, XXX, YYY 08:08:19 sicking: Jonas Sicking, Mozilla, all specs 08:08:19 from Zynga, everything that helps games 08:08:29 s/XXX/Zynga/ 08:08:37 s/YYY/everything that helps games/ 08:08:44 sgodard has joined #webapps 08:08:46 jaubourg: Julian Bourg, AAA 08:08:54 hallvord has joined #webapps 08:08:56 mklein: BBB, Google 08:09:07 rafaelw: Rafael W, Google, CCC 08:09:20 DDD: DDE, Intel, processors 08:09:24 s/AAA/jQuery Foundation, interested in the Web/ 08:09:24 jfmoy has joined #webapps 08:09:26 shepazu has joined #webapps 08:09:27 Yuan: Yuan, Nokia, everything 08:09:40 EEE: EEF, Google, DOM Specs 08:09:41 s/DDE/Wayne Carr/ 08:09:45 FFF: FFG 08:09:51 GGG: GGH 08:09:57 rotsuya has joined #webapps 08:10:02 HHH: HHI, Google, Web Components 08:10:12 JJJ: JJK 08:10:22 present+ Soonbo_Han 08:10:23 shan: Soon bo han 08:10:38 nkic has joined #webapps 08:10:47 s/HHH/morrita/ 08:10:51 haraken has joined #webapps 08:10:56 KKK: KKL, Opera 08:11:00 wseltzer has joined #webapps 08:11:02 s/KKK/spieters/ 08:11:03 tatakuya from Google. IME API 08:11:08 Bryan Sullivan from AT&T, co-editing the Push API spec, AC rep, interested in most specs but especially storage specs and File* specs 08:11:11 odinho_: Odin, Opera, OOO 08:11:19 LLL: LLM, Opera 08:11:29 jgraham: James Graham, Opera 08:11:29 KenjiBX ; Kenji Baheux ; Google ; general interest in WebApps spec ; particular interest in proposed IME API. 08:11:32 s/Soon bo/Soonbo/ 08:11:32 haraken from Google. DOM specs. 08:11:33 bryan: bryan Sullivan, AT&T AC Rep, MM 08:11:35 sicking has joined #webapps 08:11:47 paul: Paul Cotton, Microsoft, HTML co-chair 08:11:54 s/BBB/Adam Klein/ 08:11:55 PPP: PPU 08:11:58 Shinji has joined #webapps 08:12:03 tleithea has joined #webapps 08:12:11 yoske: QQQ 08:12:11 s/LLL: LLM, Opera/Lachlan Hunt, Opera, editor of Selectors API/ 08:12:13 s/OOO/interest in most specs, but listens most carefully for IndexedDB atm/ 08:12:21 RRR: RRA 08:12:28 SSS: SST 08:12:35 efullea: Eduardo Fullea, co-editing Push API spec 08:12:37 s/Soonbo/Soonbo from LGE/ 08:12:40 MagnusOlsson has joined #webapps 08:12:41 tomoyuki: SSU 08:12:46 TTT: TTU 08:12:52 efullea: Eduardo Fullea, Telefonica, co-editing Push API spec 08:12:57 amirabella: Amira Bella, CDE 08:12:57 Jong Soo Oh, LGE 08:12:58 rsleevi has joined #webapps 08:13:07 wseltzer: Wendy Seltzter, W3C 08:13:10 Travis has joined #webapps 08:13:14 s/Amira Bella, CDE/Anthony Mirabella, Synacor 08:13:16 CDF: CDG 08:13:24 s/Amira Bella, CDE/Anthony Mirabella, Synacor/ 08:13:26 s/SSU/Tomoyuki from KDDI, Japan/ 08:13:27 s/Seltzter/Seltzer/ 08:13:27 CDH: CDJ 08:13:31 CDK: CDL 08:13:36 Hiroyuki Aizu, TOSHIBA , interested in Web components and WebIntents 08:13:39 jfmoy: CDM 08:13:50 CDP: CDQ 08:14:06 s/CDF/christine runnegar/ 08:14:07 BEF: BEJ 08:14:12 www.w3.org site is down...known issue w3c staff working on this... 08:14:14 s/CDM/France Telecom 08:14:19 s/CDG/Internet Society, Privacy Interest Group, Provenance WG/ 08:14:27 mjs has joined #webapps 08:14:45 dom has joined #webapps 08:14:45 SteveH has joined #webapps 08:14:48 haraken has joined #webapps 08:14:52 Travis: Travis Leithead, Microsoft 08:14:57 chaals: so, now you've forgotten everyone's name 08:15:02 s/SSS/Koichi Takagi/ 08:15:05 ... please say your name before speaking 08:15:13 christine has joined #webapps 08:15:24 s/SST/KDDI, Japan/ 08:15:39 RRSAgent, draft minutes 08:15:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html odinho_ 08:15:52 ... scribe has certainly forgotten your name 08:15:55 bradeeoh has joined #webapps 08:15:55 topic: Agenda Bashing 08:16:02 rotsuya_ has joined #webapps 08:16:12 chaals: i'm going to try to break the agenda into blocks of less than an hour 08:16:19 ... so we can have short breaks of 5-10 minutes 08:16:27 ... trying to talk (or scribe) for 2-3 hours is a bad idea 08:16:34 If my introduction wasn't logged, here it is: Hallvord R. M. Steen, Opera Software, XMLHttpRequest co-editor / Clipboard Events editor 08:16:35 anyone else having issues with the W3C wiki server? 08:16:41 ... items: webidl 08:16:43 ... streams 08:16:51 ... input method 08:16:53 ... push api 08:16:57 No access to W3C wiki server :( 08:16:58 ... indexdb 08:17:05 yes w3c.org site has issues (timesout)...staff working to resolve 08:17:09 ... web intents 08:17:16 s/indexdb/indexeddb/ 08:17:16 ... will be tomorrow afternoon just before 5 08:17:32 ... web components (shadow dom, templates) is set for 3:45pm today 08:17:43 ... i'm presuming we have people dialing in for that (i.e. fixed time) 08:17:59 ... file api, 4:45pm today (again, people dialing in, fixed time slot) 08:18:09 ... does anyone have a topic that is not on that list? 08:18:10 plh has joined #webapps 08:18:13 ... that you'd like discussed 08:18:26 bryan: i'd like to take push api today (before file), or tomorrow morning 08:18:33 ... like 3pm? 08:18:37 chaals: objections? 08:18:38 bradeeoh has joined #webapps 08:18:39 [ done ] 08:18:44 s/done/none/ 08:18:55 shepazu: webidl is a pretty long discussion 08:19:03 ... i think we should revisit it later in the day 08:19:08 waynecarr has joined #webapps 08:19:11 chaals: so split it into two sessions? 08:19:19 ... Travis , i think you have a guy on the hook for that 08:19:26 ArtB: plh , you should be here for that 08:19:30 ... do you have time constraints? 08:19:35 plh: don't put it tomorrow afternoon 08:19:48 chaals: web idl next, and then revisit after lunch 08:20:10 shepazu: i'd like to touch base w/ heycam, so tomorrow morning 08:20:18 chaals: streams, time constraints? 08:20:50 chaals: streams will be merged file api discussion this afternoon 08:21:01 chaals: IME... anytime 08:21:30 kensaku_ has joined #webapps 08:21:35 ... process, web idl-1, ime, indexeddb 08:21:39 ... as time allows 08:21:59 takuya: i'd like to push IME to this afternoon or tomorrow 08:22:04 chaals: tomorrow morning 08:22:07 ... webidl-2, ime 08:22:18 mjs: Macie, Apple 08:22:27 ... there's been discussion on the ML about File System API 08:22:35 ... either taking it off standards track 08:22:37 ... or... 08:22:46 chaals: i expect it to be part of the file api discussion 08:22:51 ... i'll toss in a topic 08:23:02 ... i think we should look at AppCache, Offline Applications, ... mess 08:23:08 ... html wg has AppCache in their spec 08:23:11 ... everyone hates it 08:23:22 ... either because they've implemented it 08:23:38 ... we have a proposal from Mozilla for packaging applications using JSON instead of XML 08:23:46 ... all of this deals w/ using applications offline 08:23:53 Lachy: lachlan, Opera, 08:23:54 s/Macie/Maciej/ 08:24:05 +1 on talking about all of these offline questions at once 08:24:06 ... when we do Selectors, can we cover Selectors api 2? 08:24:06 +1 to manifest discussion and appcache 08:24:21 ... we'll have a chance to repeat this process tomorrow 08:24:34 ... if you've forgotten to mention something, that's bad, but we can fix tomorrow 08:24:42 ... we have a small handful of process things 08:24:51 ... if you want to talk about how w3c process works/how it should be changed 08:24:54 ... this isn't the venue 08:24:56 ... we don't care 08:25:11 ... w3c has a CG for that 08:25:18 ... right now we work w/ the process we get 08:25:24 ... in walks anne 08:25:36 ... our goal is to get docs to REC 08:25:36 ArtB, it's not just you 08:25:45 ... there's a handful of documents we're trying to step through that 08:25:54 ... Selectors API 1, Widget Update 08:26:01 ... there's a set of docs where we need editors 08:26:05 topic: Selectors 08:26:13 chaals: we have a specification for Selectors Level 1 08:26:21 ... we have a test suite, recently revices 08:26:25 s/ces/sed/ 08:26:35 sakih has joined #webapps 08:26:37 ... there was a CfC to move to PR 08:26:50 ... the normal process is we say does everyone agree to move along 08:26:56 ... we prefer positive responses 08:27:02 ... there was only one response 08:27:08 ... did anyone want to speak? 08:27:11 aizu has joined #webapps 08:27:11 [ No one ] 08:27:19 chaals: Lachy changed the test suite 08:27:23 ... did anyone review it? 08:27:27 Lachy: i rewrote the test suite 08:27:33 ... the old one was full of bugs 08:27:40 ... and wasn't revealing bugs in implementations 08:27:48 ... i rewrote it, it now shows bugs 08:27:54 ... on the spec, i removed hasFeature() 08:28:02 virginie_galindo has joined #webapps 08:28:03 ... it's now irrelevant from the latest DOM spec 08:28:11 chaals: we think Selectors API level 1 is ready to go 08:28:21 ... we can declare victory as soon as we've filled in the boxes/forms/done the process 08:28:35 topic: Widget Updates 08:28:41 chaals: widget updates has sat around for a while 08:28:46 ... in a PAG for a while 08:29:00 ... there are a couple of implementations 08:29:08 ... i'm curious to know if there are more implementations 08:29:16 ... Opera has an implementation shipping 08:29:17 Selectors API Testsuite: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api-testsuite/ (Level 1 tests need review, level 2 is a work in progress.) 08:29:20 ... with a backend 08:29:27 ... Apache has an implementation 08:29:35 heycam has joined #webapps 08:30:08 sakari: the Tizen project has implemented it 08:30:25 sebastian: we use it 08:30:26 shan has joined #webapps 08:30:45 chaals: objections to moving it forward? 08:30:46 [ None ] 08:30:53 tmpsantos has joined #webapps 08:31:05 topic: editor orphaned specifications 08:31:09 chaals: DOM4, URL Spec 08:31:17 ACTION: Charles start the process to move Widget Updates to Candidate Recommendation 08:31:17 Created ACTION-664 - Start the process to move Widget Updates to Candidate Recommendation [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2012-11-05]. 08:31:20 ... we're committed atm to do them 08:31:24 ... there's someone working on these things 08:31:38 ... it would be interested to know what his perspective is 08:31:39 edoyle has joined #webapps 08:31:48 spoussa has joined #webapps 08:31:49 anne: i'm moving them forward 08:31:55 chaals: but you're not doing them in w3c 08:31:58 anne: that's correct 08:32:16 ... i'm talking with w3 shortly 08:32:21 ... about being an invited expert 08:32:32 chaals: our current perspective is that we'd like an editor for DOM4 08:32:49 Lachy: i might be able to be an editor for dom4 08:32:52 b310 has joined #webapps 08:32:52 chaals: url? 08:32:56 ... URL isn't a very big spec 08:33:02 ... you can copy+paste what anne does 08:33:05 ... put your name on it 08:33:08 ... become famous 08:33:12 ... it's really easy 08:33:29 ArtB: fame and fortune will follow 08:33:34 shepazu: guaranteed 08:33:47 ArtB: if you don't want to volunteer publicly, that's fine, talk to chaals or ArtB 08:34:02 chaals: Progress APIs is more or less done 08:34:17 ... volunteer to do that spec 08:34:18 mjs has joined #webapps 08:34:24 ... shepazu will thank you 08:34:29 s/APIs/Spec/ 08:34:37 ... XMLHttpRequest 08:34:44 i/XML/Topic: XHR/ 08:34:51 dom has joined #webapps 08:35:11 heycam has left #webapps 08:35:20 hallvord: we think the spec is pretty feature complete 08:35:31 ... we're trying to get overview of test coverage 08:35:37 Microsoft submitted some more tests for XHR http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/rev/be00d20f652e 08:35:41 ... and the changes anne has done to the spec 08:35:48 jaubourg: that pretty much covers it 08:35:56 chaals: are there significant changes to the spec? 08:36:01 anne: progress was ported in 08:36:10 ... it was aligned with refersrc in html 08:36:42 annevk has joined #webapps 08:36:52 https://github.com/whatwg/xhr <- XHR spec annevk 08:36:52 s/anne:/annevk:/g 08:36:57 https://github.com/whatwg/xhr/commits AnonXMLHttpRequest -> XMLHttpRequest(anon=true) 08:37:08 308 is now mentioned 08:37:09 s/https/-> https/ 08:37:15 q+ to ask about Stream 08:37:18 s/->// 08:37:21 Encoding Standard is integrated 08:37:22 RRSAgent, draft minutes 08:37:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless 08:37:23 https://github.com/whatwg has urla nd dom also 08:37:28 user/password are now always okay 08:37:31 hallvord: i think there's some work for mapping 08:37:34 ... and then try to ship it 08:37:44 ... the main work is test coverage/mapping implementation 08:37:46 s/urla nd/url and/ 08:37:48 ... and trying to ship the spec 08:37:53 annevk: there's a few more things 08:37:59 ... canceling the send/abort algorithms 08:38:04 ... needs to be rewritten to use a flag 08:38:10 ... the current way doesn't work 08:38:21 ... you always want to dispatch certain events 08:38:30 ... it needs to be updated to use the url standard 08:38:37 ... to reference things with spaces in them 08:38:44 ... and we need to write tests for these conditions 08:38:54 MagnusOlsson has joined #webapps 08:38:54 chaals: should you be able to play around w/ various headers 08:39:01 ... lots of people wanted to be able to add/change the UA header 08:39:06 ... we ended up not making a chance 08:39:09 s/chance/change/ 08:39:10 s/Soonbo from LGE han/Soonbo Han from LGE/ 08:39:20 hallvord: we're still trying to figure out if we'll make a decision 08:39:25 s/KKL/Simon Pieters/ 08:39:27 chaals: there are people who want to be able to change it 08:39:39 sicking: there's also the AnonXMLHttpRequest constructor 08:39:45 ... i don't think it's been implemented 08:39:51 ... we've proposed an alternate syntax 08:39:55 q+ 08:39:56 Norbert_ has joined #webapps 08:39:57 ... that also allows for http headers 08:40:02 q? 08:40:16 hallvord: that's one of the things to pick annevk 's brain 08:40:16 sakkuru_ has joined #webapps 08:40:22 ack adrianba 08:40:22 adrianba, you wanted to ask about Stream 08:40:27 jeff has joined #webapps 08:40:32 adrianba: annevk did some changes recently 08:40:36 ... for accessing Streams 08:40:38 hallvord_ has joined #webapps 08:40:40 ... we're specifically interested in 08:40:47 ... for the new media specs in the HTML WG 08:40:52 manyoung has joined #webapps 08:40:52 ... we could talk a bit more about this under stream 08:40:59 ... but we'd like to talk about that a bit more here 08:41:10 odinho_: Opera implements AnonXMLHttpRequest 08:41:14 ... but we have no problem changing it 08:41:20 ... we like the new proposal better 08:41:23 q+ hallvord_ 08:41:24 ... so it won't be a problem 08:41:31 chaals: thanks SK telecom 08:41:38 ... who made a commitment for RF 08:41:39 ack hallvord_ 08:41:43 hallvord_: on streams 08:41:49 ... i guess we could put that in the next version 08:41:54 ... since we want to ship this spec 08:42:01 ... no one's implemented that 08:42:06 ... so i hope it's possible to defer that 08:42:08 ack odinho 08:42:11 dom has joined #webapps 08:42:13 adrianba: we implemented and shipped it in ie10 08:42:15 ... with a prefix 08:42:24 ... i'm fine with deferring it 08:42:31 ... provided it's written somewhere that we can reference 08:42:38 chaals: was that you volunteering to write it? 08:42:43 adrianba: i didn't hear that 08:42:45 ... but sure 08:42:48 chaals: he agreed 08:42:54 ... xhr level 2 08:43:08 plh has joined #webapps 08:43:18 ... the plan is to get the one we have finished 08:43:22 ... and then work on the next one 08:43:29 RRSAgent, draft minutes 08:43:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless 08:44:03 http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus 08:44:11 topic: Pub Status 08:44:14 ArtB: CORS 08:44:53 +1 w3.org is ok now 08:45:08 ArtB: are the webappsec folks here? 08:45:13 q+ 08:45:31 tlr: my recollection is that BradH is driving this 08:45:35 ... trying to get it ready 08:45:42 ... bradh is in the room here 08:45:47 ack odinho 08:45:47 (latest commit to CORS is mine...) 08:45:49 chaals: my memory is they're LC/CR 08:45:55 (W3C CORS that is) 08:45:59 tlr: it's LC, comment period has closed 08:46:00 Wonsuk has joined #webapps 08:46:05 ... think we have an email for one issue 08:46:12 chaals: Clipboard 08:46:13 Present+ Wonsuk_Lee 08:46:38 hallvord_: it's something i should get back to 08:46:45 chaals: anyone want to assist 08:46:57 hallvord_: i think the remaining issue is onbefore* 08:46:57 webappsec is meeting Thursday/Friday, fyi 08:47:05 ... for integrating copy with native browser 08:47:07 on CORS: http://www.w3.org/mid/370C9BEB4DD6154FA963E2F79ADC6F2E2AB22A@DEN-EXDDA-S12.corp.ebay.com 08:47:16 WHATWG CORS had a few changes: https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/commits 08:47:18 ... i have a request from university of geneva 08:47:23 ... i was considering ducking it 08:47:31 ... but chromium was interesting 08:47:31 avk, do you know if Brad was tracking these? 08:47:33 to account for 308, some typos, Referer control 08:47:38 chaals: we'll use them in yandex 08:47:44 tlr: no commits have been made to the W3C copy for 4 months 08:47:45 ArtB: so we're one feature/issue from LC 08:47:48 hallvord_: sort of 08:47:57 ... one feature is missing 08:48:03 ... there's some text about security 08:48:05 what's the nature of your changes? 08:48:08 ... and cleaning up of content 08:48:15 ... which we should remove 08:48:19 ... perhaps it isn't necessary 08:48:27 ArtB: if people want to see that spec move forward 08:48:31 ... they should submit comments 08:48:37 MikeSmith has joined #webapps 08:48:39 hallvord_: one issue to add, one to remove 08:48:48 chaals: if people are worried about security, look at it, scream 08:48:50 RRSAgent, make minutes 08:48:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith 08:48:58 chaals: DOM4 08:49:02 ... we're looking for an editor 08:49:14 does someone want to chat over coffee about Clipboard and security/privacy? 08:49:27 ... dom level 3 events 08:49:34 Travis: dom level 3 events is 08:49:40 ... has exited its second LC 08:49:46 ... 30 of September 08:49:49 jcverdie has joined #webapps 08:49:51 ... there were a short number of LC comments 08:49:53 ... 7 or 8 08:49:57 ... recorded in a DoC 08:50:07 ... i think the majority of those comments have been addressed 08:50:13 dgrogan_cloud has joined #webapps 08:50:14 ... in comments or email 08:50:24 chaals: people have been asking for features 08:50:28 ... but that should be dom4 08:50:32 Travis: to continue 08:50:43 ... i'd like to transition those to dom level 4 events 08:50:54 ... to allow the mind share to continue to progress 08:50:59 ... while we step aside and lock down dom 3 events 08:51:00 pbakaus has joined #webapps 08:51:09 ... i'd like to propose that we organize those features into a separate document 08:51:14 ... and publish that as FPWD 08:51:15 event.key is still a problem child, authors trying to use it have been complaining both to me and on the mailing list 08:51:17 ... i can take an action 08:51:24 ... next step for D3E 08:51:29 ... is move to CR 08:51:33 ACTION: Travis create an ED of DOM4 Events 08:51:33 Created ACTION-665 - Create an ED of DOM4 Events [on Travis Leithead - due 2012-11-05]. 08:51:49 chaals: dom parsing and serialization 08:51:52 Travis: also me 08:51:54 ACTION: Barstow work with Travis on a CfC for DOM3 Events Candidate 08:51:54 Created ACTION-666 - Work with Travis on a CfC for DOM3 Events Candidate [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-05]. 08:51:57 ... i'm c+p from ms2ger 08:52:01 ... that's the status 08:52:12 (should I ask for the mike and comment even if I've "said" something on IRC?) 08:52:14 chaals: file stuff we'll talk about this afternoon 08:52:23 ... fullscreen 08:52:28 ... we sort of have an editor 08:52:37 ... tantek, he's in CSS, it's a joint deliverable 08:52:44 q/ 08:52:45 q? 08:52:46 ... i believe that if we bribe him, he'll produce drafts 08:52:53 ... gamepad 08:52:57 ... any editors here? 08:53:04 spoussa has joined #webapps 08:53:25 ... html templates, indexeddb, ime, 08:53:50 ... webidl 08:53:53 kotakagi has joined #webapps 08:53:57 heycam has joined #webapps 08:54:12 RRSAgent, make minutes 08:54:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith 08:54:15 yune has joined #webapps 08:54:18 chaals: heycam, where is java bindings for webidl? 08:54:33 chaals: pointer lock, progress events 08:54:35 http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/java.html 08:54:42 ... push api for later 08:54:54 ... is the quota management editor here? 08:55:04 ... server sent events? 08:55:09 q+ 08:55:10 ArtB: server sent events LC published last week 08:55:10 I have kept the Java bindings document up to date with Web IDL, but I expect just to publish it as a note for curiosity at some point. 08:55:13 ... two more weeks of review 08:55:20 For Quota, I can follow up with its editor (Kinuko) later. 08:55:22 ... if we have no major issues raised 08:55:31 ... we can move forward 08:55:35 Jungkee has joined #webapps 08:55:37 Present+ Jungkee_Song 08:55:40 ... we need a test facilitator 08:55:43 ... i know there are tests from opera 08:55:53 ack odinho 08:55:54 ... any volunteers for facilitator? 08:55:59 ... jgraham ? 08:56:01 jgraham: maybe 08:56:09 ... we moved the tests from opera's server to github 08:56:10 welcome Jungkee :) 08:56:30 ... anyone else w/ tests for Server-sent-events, please talk to me 08:56:30 Hi Hallvord 08:56:40 chaals: testing is something we'll come back to in the agenda 08:56:41 Hi Julian 08:56:45 ... lots of work that needs to be done 08:56:55 ... it's great to contribute one test 08:57:08 ... it's amazingly helpful to be the facilitator for a spec 08:57:15 ... shadow dom is on the agenda 08:57:21 ... screen orientation 08:57:24 Hi Jungkee, where are you in the room ? 08:57:26 mounir: mounir, mozilla 08:57:32 ACTION: barstow follow up with Kinuko Yasuda on status and plan for Quota Management API 08:57:32 Created ACTION-667 - Follow up with Kinuko Yasuda on status and plan for Quota Management API [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-05]. 08:57:35 ... screen orientation in Firefox for B2G 08:57:45 ... i heard from someone from google 08:57:53 chaals: stream api is on the agenda 08:57:58 ... url we're looking for someone 08:58:00 dom_ has joined #webapps 08:58:10 ... web app manifest is on the agenda 08:58:16 ... web components is on the agenda 08:58:23 heycam has left #webapps 08:58:24 ... webidl is on the agenda 08:58:32 ... web intents is on the agenda 08:58:37 ... web messaging 08:58:46 glenn has joined #webapps 08:58:49 krisk: there's a good number of tests 08:58:57 ... if we move them from web workers to web messaging 08:59:04 ... it could be sufficient to be complete 08:59:08 chaals: web sockets 08:59:14 ArtB: CR was published last month 08:59:26 ... question of interop for exit criteria 08:59:28 server sent events tests - https://github.com/w3c/event-source 08:59:38 krisk: last F2F we talked about arraybufferview and replacement character 08:59:46 ... ie10 implements that 08:59:55 ... we also talked about constructors 09:00:00 ... all 3 are issues 09:00:16 s/talked about constructors/talked about event constructors/ 09:00:18 ... i sent an email about the test server 09:00:30 ... there's an issue w/ getting the server working for the tests 09:00:48 ArtB: there's a request for review of the test suite 09:00:52 s/Hi Jungkee, where are you in the room ?// 09:01:04 ... no comments on the test suite implies that the test suite is sufficient 09:01:17 RRSAgent: make minutes 09:01:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html odinho_ 09:01:19 ... so we wait for implementations to catch up 09:01:22 chaals: who has impls? 09:01:25 ... opera does? 09:01:25 s/screen orientation in Firefox for B2G/screen orientation in Firefox for Android and B2G 09:01:53 SimonPieters: opera has it 09:01:58 sicking: i think we implement the spec 09:02:06 ... i think we do replacement character 09:02:10 ... and arraybufferviews 09:02:16 ... i'm fairly sure we do event constructors now 09:02:25 chaals: sounds like it's being implemented 09:02:32 ... just a small matter of getting it cooked 09:02:36 ... web storage? 09:02:47 ArtB: it's been around for a year now 09:02:56 ... waiting for imeplementations to catch up 09:03:05 s/ime/im/ 09:03:42 ... i need to contact Jong-Heun Lee 09:03:48 chaals: web workers? 09:03:51 ArtB: published in may 09:03:57 ... for shared workers, i think we're lacking impls 09:04:04 SimonPieters: there are tests 09:04:12 ... the opera submitted tests aren't all testharness.js 09:04:20 ... i'm not sure about pass rate on different browsers 09:04:26 ... test suite still needs more work 09:04:31 chaals: any big issues? 09:04:45 sicking: i'm pretty sure there are pretty big features not implemented by anyone 09:04:53 ... we don't implement shared workers 09:05:02 ... i don't know if anyone implements workers in workers 09:05:08 annevk: i think opera does workers in workers 09:05:15 Travis: IE10 has workers 09:05:20 Opera did it first! 09:05:22 ... we don't support shared workers in any form 09:05:32 ... with the possible exception of automatic GC 09:05:48 chaals: so outstanding work to be done 09:05:50 ArtB: is it small 09:05:54 ... should we split the spec? 09:06:02 chaals: does anyone suggest we should split the spec? 09:06:24 Travis: i'd like to entertain the idea of splitting out shared workers 09:06:28 ... as a separate spec 09:06:36 ... wanting to gauge support for that idea in the group 09:06:47 ... seems like a good idea to move workers forward since everyone has it 09:06:56 chaals: we entertain spec editors 09:07:10 SimonPieters: i think we shouldn't split the spec 09:07:21 ... no one is not planning to implement 09:07:23 q? 09:07:29 pbakaus: i have a question on this 09:07:38 ... i had recent discussions on new features 09:07:39 ACTION: barstow work with Jong-Heun Lee to start a RfR Web Storage test suite 09:07:40 Created ACTION-668 - Work with Jong-Heun Lee to start a RfR Web Storage test suite [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-05]. 09:07:42 ... i wonder where we put them 09:07:53 ... do we put them in a new spec? 09:08:05 chaals: anyone know Hixie 's view? 09:08:09 JonathanJ1 has joined #webapps 09:08:14 jgraham: Hixie will just put it in the WhatWG spec 09:08:19 ... he won't split it out 09:08:29 ... whether it makes sense depends on the feature 09:08:35 ... if it ties in and affects semantics 09:08:43 ... it might be hard to put it into a separate document 09:08:48 q+ sicking 09:08:52 ... without lots of hooks and making it fragile 09:08:54 ack sicking 09:09:00 sicking: one feature is sync message channels 09:09:05 ... which ties in pretty deeply 09:09:11 pbakaus: we discussed canvas 09:09:32 chaals: i don't see this as support for splitting it out 09:09:39 ... ArtB does the process pushes 09:09:51 jet has joined #webapps 09:09:53 ... you're welcome to volunteer 09:10:06 ... but at some point we'll be skeptical about you volunteering for more work 09:10:20 ... if we take what we have through the process 09:10:25 ... we expect another version in the future 09:10:40 Re; WebSocket support, Chrome has also supported it for long time but arraybufferview and replacement character haven't been implemented yet. 09:10:48 chaals: we have widgets for tomorrow 09:10:54 ... time for a 10 minute break 09:11:02 [ Break ] 09:11:05 topic: Web IDL 09:13:05 a12u has joined #webapps 09:13:38 Correction regarding websocket support in chromium, we have already implemented both (arraybufferview and replacement character). sorry about it. 09:14:41 tomoyuki has joined #webapps 09:18:48 darobin has joined #webapps 09:18:57 evanli has joined #webapps 09:19:48 kotakagi has joined #webapps 09:21:06 edoyle has joined #webapps 09:21:26 nsakai2 has left #webapps 09:22:57 nsakai2_ has joined #webapps 09:22:59 MagnusOlsson has joined #webapps 09:24:03 nsakai has joined #webapps 09:24:57 SimonPieters has joined #webapps 09:25:17 abarsto has joined #webapps 09:25:20 rotsuya has joined #webapps 09:25:38 jfmoy has joined #webapps 09:25:52 morrita has joined #webapps 09:26:13 mjs has joined #webapps 09:26:13 chaals: half the people asked about webidl now asked for it to be postponed 09:26:27 09:26:29 toppic: Streams 09:26:39 s/toppic/topic/ 09:26:40 KenjiBX has joined #webapps 09:26:52 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm 09:26:56 adrianba: we updated the streams spec last week 09:27:06 sicking has joined #webapps 09:27:11 ... it's a pretty simple spec 09:27:20 ... we made some changes to align it with changes in the fileapi 09:27:38 ... the stream object maps fairly closely to the Blob object in fileapi 09:27:39 jaubourg has joined #webapps 09:27:50 ... stream has a way to keep reading data until you get to the end of the stream 09:27:54 hallvord has joined #webapps 09:27:57 ... there's a streamreader that maps fairly closely to filereader 09:28:13 ... there's a streambuilder which is fairly close to what we used to have with blobbuilder 09:28:19 q 09:28:20 ... it doesn't make sense to move to the constructor form 09:28:23 ... so it's still there 09:28:24 s/q// 09:28:26 aizu has joined #webapps 09:28:35 sicking: can you read from a stream multiple times or just once? 09:28:42 adrianba: you can only read the data once 09:29:01 ... the stream reader methods have a construct to say the maximum amount of data you want to read 09:29:06 ... so you can avoid reading to the end 09:29:11 ... you could read into a blob 09:29:20 chaals: so i could read from a stream into a blob 09:29:29 ... and then read from the blob multiple times 09:29:34 adrianba: or into a string 09:29:48 sicking: is there a way to get a stream that represents the content of a url? 09:29:55 adrianba: part of the proposal in the stream spec 09:30:05 ... which i think i've now volunteered to write into a different spec 09:30:10 ... in ready-state-3 09:30:16 ... if you set the response type to stream 09:30:24 ... then you can put it into a stream object 09:30:30 ... and essentially read off the wire from xhr 09:30:37 ... and at the end the xhr moves to ready-state-4 09:30:44 sicking: is there the concept of a stream failing? 09:30:56 ... if the server fails instead of ending 09:31:04 adrianba: if you call a read method 09:31:12 ... and the read is ending because of an io error 09:31:18 ... then the method throws an error 09:31:25 ... the same sort of error construct as in file reader 09:31:27 q? 09:31:34 tomoyuki has joined #webapps 09:31:39 q+ to ask if you still get those last bytes before the exception 09:31:56 adrianba: we have the stream builder and the stream reader from xhr 09:32:04 q+ SimonPieters 09:32:05 ... we have discussions in html wg for media source extension spec 09:32:11 ... we'd like to use the stream object from xhr 09:32:22 ... to hand off data from media to the rendering pipeline 09:32:29 ... we the Media Group 09:32:39 sicking: how does that work if you can only read from a stream once 09:32:45 ... given that a media might want to rewind 09:32:51 adrianba: this is for media stream 09:32:57 ... where you can append to a buffer 09:33:09 ... the media stream is then responsible for managing that buffer 09:33:22 ... we want to avoid having to read all the way to the end into an array buffer 09:33:29 ... and then copy it into the media element buffer 09:33:36 ... this avoids copying into another buffer 09:33:37 ack me 09:33:37 timeless, you wanted to ask if you still get those last bytes before the exception 09:33:42 q+ 09:34:12 adrianba: you can read the data during progress events 09:34:19 ... and then get the error later 09:34:25 ... as with progress events/file 09:34:36 SimonPieters: with file we dropped blob builder 09:34:43 ... is there a plan to do the same thing with stream? 09:34:54 adrianba: no, with blob you have all the data available at the time it's created 09:35:01 ... the blob is immutable 09:35:11 ... for stream, the stream builder lets you create an instance of a stream 09:35:19 ... but still have a reference to the builder 09:35:23 ... to feed in more data 09:35:26 ... to append to the stream 09:35:35 ... maybe sending with xhr, or consuming from some place else 09:35:45 SimonPieters: wouldn't it make sense to just have an append() method on the stream? 09:35:59 adrianba: this allows for producer-consumer in different places 09:36:04 ... workers 09:36:10 ... so you can transfer the object 09:36:16 ... i'm open to discussion 09:36:20 ... we haven't built builder yet 09:36:27 SimonPieters: discuss on bug/ML 09:36:29 q? 09:36:36 ack sicking 09:36:38 ack SimonPieters 09:36:43 rubylin has joined #webapps 09:36:46 sicking: if you want to stream from URL to 09:36:51 ... you need to be able to Fast Forward 09:36:57 tomoyuki has joined #webapps 09:37:01 ... without wanting to read all the data in the interim 09:37:10 ... and you want to be able to rewind 09:37:19 ... you want to be able to jump arbitrarily 09:37:28 adrianba: the intent is to hook it up to the media source extension 09:37:29 yune has joined #webapps 09:37:34 ... which lets you programatically compose the buffer 09:37:36 MagnusOlsson has joined #webapps 09:37:43 ... for adaptive streaming 09:37:47 ... you'd have a manifest file 09:37:49 dom has joined #webapps 09:38:05 ... pointing to different segments at different bitrates 09:38:14 ... i compose an xhr for one segment 09:38:26 ... and choose a different bitrate for another segment 09:38:30 shh has joined #webapps 09:38:45 ... the buffer in the media element holds the segments you append/insert 09:38:55 ... the buffer can drop parts 09:39:10 ... the media element with the extension will tell you if you need the data 09:39:19 chaals: so you could rewind to a segment you've been to 09:39:32 ... and you could choose to pull in a different quality (higher) for the segment 09:39:34 jwu4 has joined #webapps 09:39:45 sicking: i think my question is more on media stream 09:39:59 chaals: how long will it take for you to build this? will this be in ie11/ie12? 09:40:07 adrianba: we built a large part of this already 09:40:15 ... we're looking for feedback... as SimonPieters mentioned 09:40:19 ... is this the right model 09:40:24 ... are there more changes in the file api 09:40:30 ... that we'd need to reflect here? 09:40:39 ... we feel read part is more useful than builder 09:40:47 ... which is why we did that 09:40:57 chaals: do you have someone doing the builder part? 09:42:02 czhang2 has joined #webapps 09:42:07 adrianba: you can get a stream from xhr 09:42:13 chaals: is anyone doing builder side? 09:42:39 ... break for 30 minutes 09:42:44 czhang2 has joined #webapps 09:42:46 [ break ] 09:42:53 topic: Web IDL 09:44:12 Agenda planning for the rest of the day: 09:44:17 + Web IDL 09:44:33 (11.15 − 12.15) 09:47:51 Alan has joined #webapps 09:48:07 Veronica has joined #webapps 09:49:22 nsakai has joined #webapps 09:50:49 Yongrok_Kim has joined #webapps 09:52:41 tomoyuki has joined #webapps 09:56:19 dnkim has joined #webapps 09:57:13 jfmoy has joined #webapps 09:57:28 jbb has joined #webapps 09:58:18 jaubourg has joined #webapps 09:59:04 RRSAgent, make minutes 09:59:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 10:00:21 kotakagi has joined #webapps 10:01:06 yune_ has joined #webapps 10:01:06 bradee-oh has joined #webapps 10:05:10 Present+ Charles_McCathie_Nevile, Travis_Leithead, Jonas_Sicking, Olli_Pettay, Simon_Pieters, Maciej_Stachowiak, Lachlan_Hunt, Hallvord_Steen, Kenji_Baheux, Bo_Hu, Bo_Chen, Arnaud_Braud, Doug_Schepers, Eduardo_Fullea, Kris_Krueger, Lars_Erik_Bolstad 10:05:17 RRSAgent, make minutes 10:05:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 10:06:42 tomoyuki has joined #webapps 10:08:03 Present+ Magnus_Olsson, Mike_Smith, Mounir_Lamouri, Paul_Bakaus, Philippe_Le_Hégaret, Rafael_Weinstein, Sakari_Poussa, Virginie_GALINDO, Wayne_Carr, Yuan_Ji 10:08:17 RRSAgent, make minutes 10:08:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 10:08:29 JonathanJ has joined #webapps 10:10:26 KenjiBX has joined #webapps 10:11:03 Present+ Erika_Doyle_Navara, Christine_Runnegar, Thomas_Roessler, Paul_Cotton, Steve_Holbrook, Anne_van_Kesteren 10:12:50 RRSAgent, draft minutes 10:12:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless 10:13:32 mjs has joined #webapps 10:13:37 byungjung_ has joined #webapps 10:14:18 morrita has joined #webapps 10:15:03 jcverdie has joined #webapps 10:15:42 Yuan has joined #webapps 10:15:44 spoussa has joined #webapps 10:16:14 Bo_Chen has left #webapps 10:16:25 tomoyuki has joined #webapps 10:16:34 Arno has joined #webapps 10:16:39 Norbert has joined #webapps 10:16:48 present+ Arnaud_Braud 10:16:50 a12u has joined #webapps 10:17:03 Travis: webidl overview... and then testing 10:17:07 ... there's a v1 spec 10:17:13 ... which heycam forked off earlier this year 10:17:19 ... he's currently working on v2 of webidl 10:17:31 ... where new proposals, iterators, serializers have been placed 10:17:36 present+ Norbert_Lindenberg 10:17:40 ... in the interest of finishing v1, he did that split 10:18:09 present +Sakari_Poussa 10:18:21 s/present +/present+ / 10:18:34 Travis: there are a number of specs with normative references to webidl 10:18:40 a12u has joined #webapps 10:18:51 ... and they'll get stuck at CR until v1 moves to REC 10:19:00 ... there are two approaches 10:19:08 ... we create a test suite for the web idl specification 10:19:17 ... that tests every normative feature in the specification 10:19:30 ... by searching across specifications to find occurrences of those features 10:19:36 ... to test those features specifically 10:19:52 ... for interface object testing, we'd select a couple of those snippets 10:19:57 ... test to see if they're present 10:20:02 ... not testing the syntax of webidl 10:20:06 ... testing the binding 10:20:11 present+ Sakari_Poussa 10:20:16 q+ to ask about [TreatUndefinedAs=Missing] 10:20:42 ... so if you're building a browser that supports webidl 10:20:46 virginie_galindo has joined #webapps 10:20:51 ... you'd have to implement those things 10:20:52 rotsuya has joined #webapps 10:21:11 ... it's a bit dicey, since the test suite builders have to pick interface sections that everyone would implement 10:21:11 kensaku has joined #webapps 10:21:15 Arno has joined #webapps 10:21:16 ... the second approach 10:21:22 ... would be to create a meta test suite 10:21:24 divya has joined #webapps 10:21:29 ... "how to test your specification test suite" 10:21:34 ... two examples 10:21:38 ... the selectors api spec 10:21:40 jwu4 has joined #webapps 10:21:48 ... the web navigation timing spec (in the web perf wg) 10:21:52 sakkuru has joined #webapps 10:21:54 ... both of those specifications reference webidl normatively 10:22:00 ... and they'd like to go to REC 10:22:11 ... if i'm building a test suite for navigation timing 10:22:14 ... what do i test? 10:22:18 ack odinho_ 10:22:18 odinho_, you wanted to ask about [TreatUndefinedAs=Missing] 10:22:30 odinho_: we can talk about that later 10:22:42 Travis: i think there's a slot for that in v2 10:22:52 chaals: this discussion is about stabilizing/publishing v2 10:23:04 hsivonen has joined #webapps 10:23:17 mjs: is there at least one spec identified for every feature of webidl 10:23:21 edoyle has joined #webapps 10:23:25 ... that is likely to be widely implemented 10:23:30 ... and a good example of that feature 10:23:34 Travis: good question 10:23:39 ... there's a type called Byte 10:23:49 ... prior to yesterday, i wasn't aware of any spec using it 10:23:59 ... i found one yesterday, khronos's Typed Array spec 10:24:14 ... i believe there's an instance of each feature 10:24:19 ... but not necessarily all combinations 10:24:28 ... clamp(...various types...) 10:24:39 mjs: is there a list of specifications to use for targeting 10:24:49 paul-huawei has joined #webapps 10:24:50 Travis: i've created a webidl test 10:24:54 there is also this page, for some references http://www.w3.org/wiki/Web_IDL 10:25:03 ... that's loading web idl assertions in iframes 10:25:28 ... there's no summary of "these are the specs i'm taking from" 10:25:34 ... but they're implicit 10:25:52 jgraham: i don't know how relevant it is to testing webidl itself 10:25:55 ... there's IDLHarness.js 10:26:01 ... in the resources repository 10:26:04 ... in dvcs 10:26:19 q? 10:26:27 ... it might be helpful 10:26:30 sicking has joined #webapps 10:26:46 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/resources/file/tip/idlharness.js 10:26:56 jgraham: it will try to test the implications of webidl 10:27:22 plh: last i tried, it failed on the window object 10:27:38 SimonPieters: i think there changes to webidl 10:27:40 Wonsuk has joined #webapps 10:27:46 ... AryehGregor wrote it 10:27:55 shh has joined #webapps 10:28:07 jgraham: I think AryehGregor plans to work on it 10:28:12 Here is a test that consumes this idlharness.js 10:28:13 http://www.w3c-test.org/html/tests/submission/AryehGregor/interfaces.html 10:28:35 jgraham: it uses head grabber that darobin wrote 10:28:45 ... if things don't match that, it'll fail 10:28:55 ... i think that's out of date and needs to be updated 10:29:46 Travis: assuming that worked 10:29:53 present+ Robin_Berjon 10:30:12 chaals: say we identify "this piece is used in Selectors API" 10:30:17 ... using this tool to check whether this works 10:31:01 ? 10:31:06 q? 10:31:17 darobin has joined #webapps 10:31:55 MJS: Seems like there are 3 testing issues: 10:31:58 q? 10:32:15 … the combination of IDL and a particular spec, plus what IDL says, implies requirements on that spec. 10:32:35 … eg notification has IDL snippets and that implies requirements for the behaviour of those interefaces. 10:32:52 … Maybe every spec using IDL should include tests for the parts of WebIDL used in the given spec. 10:33:19 … But also, IDL needs to be tested itself. It has requirements on other specifications, but it is hard to make a test suite that tests specs. 10:33:54 … But we could do a grammar-level check, and say that satisfies spec confromance. But tehre are also requirements that cascade down to user agents, and the question is how totest those for WebIDL? 10:34:18 … So let's find specs that show examples of each item, and test them. This harnes could help us do that. 10:34:39 … We satisfy the larger set of test suites, and those results let us confirm that WebIDL itself works. 10:34:53 … If we trust the harness we can use it to automate. 10:34:58 … the process. 10:35:09 tokamoto_ has joined #webapps 10:35:32 CMN: +! 10:35:37 s/!/1/ 10:35:54 Travis: We could make the test harness into the testing deliverable, and agrees that is sufficient. 10:36:28 MJS: Interesting because that would let you test combinations. SUper useful but not sure it fulfils the testing requirement if the harness hasn't actually been used to do the testing yet. 10:36:47 TL: How do we test the harness. 10:39:26 CMN: Don't think we can get away with just the harness. Wwe need to run it, as Maciej said, but that doesn't seem to be the hard part. Agreeing on the harness seems OK. 10:39:32 q+ SimonPieters 10:39:43 TL: If I edit a spec and test suite fails on WebIDL, is that a problem? 10:39:52 q+ 10:40:11 JG: We should be allowed to say a test is failing for a reason other than the actual test itself. 10:40:24 Shinji has joined #webapps 10:40:29 q? 10:40:30 q+ 10:40:44 kotakagi has joined #webapps 10:40:47 chaals: our obligation is to prove that this is implementable and workable 10:40:52 ... we can prove that 10:40:56 kotakagi2 has joined #webapps 10:41:10 ... we want to avoid the situation where we say "this is fine, it'll work some time in the future" 10:41:29 plh has joined #webapps 10:41:33 ... it's like saying "we'll fail the selectors api because someone has a bug in target()" 10:41:35 --> http://w3c-test.org/webperf/tests/submission/W3C/NavigationTiming/test_interface.html 10:41:37 q+ 10:41:43 ... i certainly expect to do that 10:41:49 s/target()/:target pseudo-class/ 10:41:50 q? 10:42:08 ack SimonPieters 10:42:12 … waiting to fix all corner cases is broken, and we can be more grown-up 10:42:22 q+ take a quick look at the WebIDL CR Exit Criteria http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-WebIDL-20120419/#cr-exit 10:42:22 SimonPieters: having reference to non-REC 10:42:27 ... it doesn't block moving to REC 10:42:30 CMN: Right. We're not going to hang up on tests that fail for some non-relevant reason. 10:42:32 ... you just have to inform that directory 10:42:36 s/y// 10:42:45 ... it doesn't necessarily block you 10:42:59 q- chaals 10:43:03 ack me 10:43:04 ack MikeSmith 10:43:09 ack mjs 10:43:14 bryan has joined #webapps 10:43:38 mjs: w3c process does require that you state your CR exit criteria 10:43:53 ... it doesn't require "two implementations will pass in the test suite" 10:44:06 hiro has joined #webapps 10:44:12 q+ to review the CR exit criteria for Web IDL http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-WebIDL-20120419/#cr-exit 10:44:14 ... a spec could state "as long as webidl issues are identified, we won't block on them" 10:44:25 +1 to mjs 10:44:50 ... CR exit criteria saying "we must have fixes for every single observed issue" isn't a good idea 10:45:07 plh: i did this exercise with web performance navigation timing 10:45:28 q+ 10:46:04 plh: I did this exercise 10:46:05 q- 10:46:11 q? 10:46:13 ack plh 10:46:17 ack pl 10:46:21 ack od 10:46:29 ... And every single thing had issues 10:46:43 q+ 10:46:59 Odinho: I did testing and stopped there was too much red 10:47:19 ... There was no prioritization 10:47:25 ... Throwing is important 10:47:36 ... Some things are less 10:47:46 ... Prototype chain 10:47:53 q+ 10:48:46 q+ 10:48:55 q+ 10:48:56 shh has joined #webapps 10:49:20 present+ Tobie_Langel 10:51:28 Travis: hopefully when webidl is pushed to rec, people will fix their implementations to match 10:51:41 TL: If there are crucial parts of WebIDL that need to pass we need to make sure they do... 10:51:44 ... so that we won't have 80% failures for indexeddb 10:51:44 q? 10:51:45 q? 10:51:46 ack mjs 10:52:05 mjs: i've heard there are things which are tested and fail 10:52:10 ... i'd like to know what they are 10:52:16 ... it's hard to talk in the abstract 10:52:26 ... are these different in all browsers? 10:52:40 ... or do the browsers all do one thing which is distinct from webidl 10:52:49 ... in which case we could "fix" webidl 10:53:07 ... but if the browsers each have different behaviors, then making them match webidl could be easier 10:53:29 jgraham: for a lot of the things 10:53:34 ... where we see lots and lots of fails 10:53:40 ... it's the way the testharness has been written 10:53:48 ... it's to test the webidl stuff very carefully 10:53:57 ... we can't say nothing about it 10:54:10 ... but atm, we have 4 browsers doing 4 distinct things 10:54:18 ... where should attributes be on the prototype chain? 10:54:23 ... on the objects, on the prototype, both? 10:54:28 ... we discussed it on the ML 10:54:34 ... we agreed it was the right solution technically 10:54:43 ... but everyone who isn't doing that today needs to change this, it's tedious 10:55:00 q? 10:55:01 ... but that shouldn't block specs 10:55:05 ack jg 10:55:09 ack la 10:55:11 ack lach 10:55:14 Lachy: priotizing tests 10:55:22 s/prio/priori/ 10:55:30 ... i have critical tests 10:55:34 ... and nice to have tests 10:55:39 It's important to get those prototype chain issues worked out - or we get compat problems like http://my.opera.com/hallvors/blog/2012/10/26/microsofts-skydrive-gun-meet-foot 10:55:42 ... including stuff in webidl that might fail 10:56:20 ... changing some parts in webidl would require changing lots of things in our implementation 10:56:25 ... and we didn't have the resources for that 10:56:32 ... implementing TypeError / NSError from firefox 10:56:40 ... changing that, it's in our code, it's a relatively small change 10:56:46 ... but it can affect lots of things 10:56:53 q+ 10:56:53 ... requiring a lot of test fixes in our system 10:56:55 q? 10:56:58 ack sicking 10:57:18 sicking: there are very few controversial things 10:57:20 kotakagi has joined #webapps 10:57:23 q+ travis 10:57:25 + 10:57:29 q+ 10:57:32 ... there's very few cases where we should remove something from the spec 10:57:37 Jungkee has joined #webapps 10:57:37 ... it's just tedious to fix 10:57:42 ... and doesn't add value for implementers 10:57:42 Present+ Jungkee_Song 10:57:47 ... so it gets less priority 10:58:00 ack mj 10:58:03 mjs: it'd be useful to make a list of known common things 10:58:10 ... where there aren't 2 implementations matching webidl's spec 10:58:22 ... if the harness could group things 10:58:25 jaubourg has joined #webapps 10:58:28 ... based on which type of interop issue 10:58:32 ... that'd be useful 10:58:44 ... thus the remaining ones would be more easily identified 10:58:53 ... for the n different behaviors of attribute behaviors 10:58:58 ... i'd like to know what they are 10:59:18 q- 10:59:27 sicking: three behaviors i know of 10:59:33 ... webkit puts stuff on object itself 10:59:43 ... i think opera puts things on the relevant prototype object 10:59:51 ... for dom node nodeName, on the Node interface object 11:00:02 ... gecko puts it on the Node interface object and the leaf interface object 11:00:09 ... e.g. Node and Div interface 11:00:19 Travis: IE since 9 puts it on the Node prototype 11:00:32 jgraham: opera is different for Methods and Attributes 11:00:39 ack Travis 11:00:46 in Opera methods are on the prototype, attributes are on the object. 11:00:47 Travis: i'll take an action as we build the test 11:00:52 ... to understand the impl report 11:00:59 ... there's 2/3 here 11:01:12 ... it sounds like that'd be helpful for further discussion on issues 11:01:55 chaals: if you build stuff on webidl 11:02:01 ... and you change the spec underneath them 11:02:14 ... that makes a mess for really hard to change things 11:02:19 ... things outside web browsers 11:02:27 ... we need to think about pragmatic 11:03:13 bryan has left #webapps 11:03:15 chaals: a way of testing downstream specs 11:03:25 ... and finding out what the issues are 11:03:35 ... having a WG lets us discuss how to break each of everyone's systems to reach interop 11:03:49 ... seems we have a path forward 11:03:58 plh: to nav timing? I recall one change + webidl-fying the implementation 11:04:39 ArtB: plh , do you know what to tell the web performance group? 11:05:58 timeless: Nightly has 45 pass (2 fail) 11:06:07 ... ie9 has 42 pass (5 fail) 11:06:12 plh: i can take that to the director 11:06:23 chaals: an answer to how long does it take to get done 11:06:27 ... there's a priority problem 11:06:35 ... "until web idl is finished, you have more work to do" 11:06:44 ... to be sure that webidl isn't going to change under you 11:06:57 q+ 11:07:14 IE10 has the same result as IE9 (42 pass, 5 fail) 11:07:20 ... go back to groups "you should push web idl to be sure it's finished sooner" 11:07:29 plh: those groups don't know how to test webidl 11:07:37 chaals: i see darobin 's boss looking at darobin 11:07:42 darobin: i'm coding it right now 11:07:45 q- 11:07:54 ack me 11:07:58 Travis: i'd propose we send out a general announcement 11:08:08 ... "if your spec depends on webidl. please contact Travis " 11:08:15 ... "we'll see if we can prioritize your pieces of webidl" 11:08:32 plh: we have a few specs in PR waiting on WebIDL 11:08:32 ACTION: barstow work with PLH on an announcement seeking IRC fragments 11:08:33 Created ACTION-669 - Work with PLH on an announcement seeking IRC fragments [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-05]. 11:08:46 ... including GeoLoc 11:09:04 q? 11:09:08 s/IRC fragments/Web IDL fragments/ 11:09:17 chaals: on getting WebIDL stable, anything else we need to add? 11:09:19 ... we have a plan 11:09:27 ... find out what we don't agree on, work on making them work 11:10:23 Travis: please review the assertions in webidl http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/WebIDLTest.htm 11:10:35 ArtB: i can send out a call for review to public-script-coord 11:10:38 chaals: time check 11:10:42 ACTION: barstow start a Call for Review for Web IDL test plan on public-script-coord 11:10:42 Created ACTION-670 - Start a Call for Review for Web IDL test plan on public-script-coord [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-05]. 11:11:19 ArtB: the guys working on Quota API could give a quick update 11:11:28 topic: Quota API 11:11:55 ... she received two pieces of feedback 11:12:12 ... temporary/permanent 11:12:18 s/she/Kinuko/ 11:12:18 ... the other was to change the interface name 11:12:30 ... to get the object instead of integer 11:12:44 ... Kinuko mentioned changing temporary/permanent 11:12:57 ... as far as she knows, chromium is the only browser supporting this api 11:13:07 ... to move forward, 11:13:20 rotsuya has joined #webapps 11:13:37 rubylin has joined #webapps 11:13:38 ... she's eager to look at how to get others to associate things with 11:13:42 [ .... ] 11:13:50 tobie: vaguely, i made those comments 11:14:02 RRSAgent, make minutes 11:14:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 11:14:02 timeless: he isn't an implementer, he's a consumer 11:14:38 topic: Lunch 11:14:45 chaals: 75 minutes for lunch 11:14:59 ... be back here, 1:30 Central European Standard Time 11:15:30 MikeSmith: will the room be locked? 11:15:34 chaals: MikeSmith will find out 11:15:47 aizu has left #webapps 11:15:50 Wonsuk has left #webapps 11:16:14 RRSAgent, draft minutes 11:16:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless 11:17:05 MikeSmith: if people want to leave stuff, we can lock the room 11:18:44 shh has joined #webapps 11:18:55 Veronica has joined #webapps 11:20:04 shepazu has joined #webapps 11:21:58 ACTION: barstow work with Opera Websocket tester(s) on a Request for Review of their web socket tests 11:21:58 Created ACTION-671 - Work with Opera Websocket tester(s) on a Request for Review of their web socket tests [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-11-05]. 11:26:06 silvia has joined #webapps 11:46:07 tomoyuki has joined #webapps 11:50:08 kensaku has joined #webapps 12:00:13 krijnh has joined #webapps 12:12:13 a12u has joined #webapps 12:15:56 tokamoto has joined #webapps 12:16:57 a1zu has joined #webapps 12:28:08 morrita has joined #webapps 12:29:40 sicking has joined #webapps 12:32:22 rotsuya has joined #webapps 12:33:21 Yoshihiro has joined #webapps 12:36:14 tomoyuki has joined #webapps 12:36:19 rotsuya_ has joined #webapps 12:37:18 shan has joined #webapps 12:37:25 Shinji has joined #webapps 12:37:58 morrita has joined #webapps 12:38:39 mjs has joined #webapps 12:39:16 bradee-oh has joined #webapps 12:40:39 rotsuya has joined #webapps 12:41:16 kotakagi has joined #webapps 12:41:17 Arno has joined #webapps 12:42:41 shepazu has joined #webapps 12:42:49 s/Koichi Takagi/kotakagi/ 12:44:43 smaug has joined #webapps 12:44:49 Lachy has joined #webapps 12:44:53 spoussa has joined #webapps 12:45:27 a12u has joined #webapps 12:47:16 aizu has joined #webapps 12:47:35 abarsto has joined #webapps 12:48:00 KenjiBX has joined #webapps 12:49:35 Present Hiroyuki_Aizu 12:49:52 present+ David_Grogan 12:50:12 yongrok has joined #webapps 12:51:28 kensaku has joined #webapps 12:52:01 chaals: it's getting on towards the 1:30pm start time 12:52:14 i/getting/Topic: IndexedDB/ 12:53:00 Oh has joined #webapps 12:53:01 supercalifragelisticexpialidocious 12:53:16 hallvord has joined #webapps 12:53:16 s/supercalifragelisticexpialidocious// 12:53:17 shadows 12:53:24 s/shadows/ 12:53:26 s/Present Hiroyuki_Aizu/Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu/ 12:53:32 sgodard has joined #webapps 12:53:45 slightlyoff has joined #webapps 12:53:50 RRSAgent, make minutes 12:53:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 12:53:59 OH HAI 12:54:11 chaals: anything else people want to talk about? 12:54:12 lmastiner: will you talk about URLs? 12:54:29 chaals: we're looking for an editor to rebrand annevk's work 12:54:40 nsakai has joined #webapps 12:54:41 Yuan has joined #webapps 12:54:57 s/mastiner/masinter/ 12:55:08 dnkim has joined #webapps 12:55:22 lmasinter: i'm interested making sure the IETF specs are useful 12:55:24 chaals: good thing to do 12:55:37 efullea has joined #webapps 12:55:43 topic: IETF specs 12:55:59 chaals: where's the other mic? 12:56:03 bryan has joined #webapps 12:56:08 lmasinter: there are 4 specs 12:56:14 npdoty has joined #webapps 12:56:16 ... trying to describe what an IRI is 12:56:24 ... there was a document for comparing IRIs 12:56:25 jfmoy has joined #webapps 12:56:30 ... a document for bidirectional IRIs 12:56:39 ... combining LTR w/ RTL text 12:56:47 ... and a document to update the URI scheme registration 12:56:56 ... because people were confused about URI/IRI registration 12:57:03 ... the IRI WG has been meeting for several years 12:57:11 ... there'll be a meeting in Atlanta next week 12:57:12 takuya has joined #webapps 12:57:12 MagnusOlsson has joined #webapps 12:57:14 ... i'll be there 12:57:14 Alan has joined #webapps 12:57:23 ... i'm hoping if we'll get more test cases into the test suite 12:57:35 ... we need to make sure the reality matches the right reality 12:57:36 Veronica has joined #webapps 12:57:39 ... the specs are open 12:57:45 ... there's a tracker with issues 12:57:50 ... there's been about 60 issues 12:57:59 ... there hasn't been much overlap between the people here and there 12:58:14 jbb has joined #webapps 12:58:58 ... i haven't seen substantive work taking place here 12:59:06 ... we did commit to doing work 12:59:17 lmasinter: i've been doing work with SDQ 13:00:38 I have been lead to believe only Opera implements IDNA 2008. others implement 2003 13:00:40 ... on rfc 3987 13:00:46 -> http://url.spec.whatwg.org/ WHATWG URL spec 13:00:51 lmasinter: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/iri/trac/report/1 13:01:02 sakkuru has joined #webapps 13:01:07 adrianba has joined #webapps 13:01:19 alex_russell: Alex Russell, Google 13:01:27 tokamoto has joined #webapps 13:01:28 ... who's signed up to implementing this? 13:01:35 edoyle has joined #webapps 13:01:38 lmasinter: the people who are there are those who have sent email 13:01:46 Jungkee has joined #webapps 13:01:48 chaals: while we have a URI spec in our WG 13:01:53 ... i haven't seen anyone doing work on it 13:02:22 lmasinter: we put in 8 test cases, and all the browsers are different about how they behave 13:02:39 jcverdie has joined #webapps 13:02:46 timeless: just filing the bugs is a first step 13:03:10 lmasinter: http://www.w3.org/wiki/UriTesting 13:03:13 glenn has joined #webapps 13:03:28 ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2012Oct/0007.html 13:03:46 krisk has joined #webapps 13:03:53 ... i've been trying to get Chris Weber to put his testcases into a form where people can run them 13:04:04 topic: Introductions continued 13:04:14 tobie: Tobie Langel, Facebook, everything 13:04:21 sakkuru has joined #webapps 13:04:32 amirabella: XXX 13:04:40 RRSAgent, make minutes 13:04:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 13:04:43 alex_russell: Alex Russell, Google 13:04:52 dgrogan_cloud: David Grogan, Google, IndexedDB 13:04:57 mjs: Maciej, Apple, most things 13:04:59 Travis has joined #webapps 13:05:04 timeless: I'm Alex Russell for the record 13:05:17 bradee-oh: Bradee, Google, ibid 13:05:24 s/Bradee/Brady/ 13:05:34 s/Google/Apple/ 13:05:44 spoussa: Sakario Poussa 13:05:53 Present+ Alex_Russell, Brady_Eidson, Jungkee_Song 13:05:54 present+ kris_krueger 13:05:56 Jungkee: Jungkee Song, Samsung 13:06:05 Present+ Larry_Masinter 13:06:05 topic: IndexedDB 13:06:15 sicking: we've gotten a bunch of feedback 13:06:26 ... we've got a lot of feedback 13:06:35 ... we need to integrate the feedback 13:06:40 ... and then update the spec to use WebIDL 13:06:47 ... we have good scripts from darobin to do that 13:06:51 ... i've been slacking 13:06:56 q+ 13:07:00 ... either i need help, or i need to make it happen 13:07:04 SteveH has joined #webapps 13:07:04 chaals: who's doing impl? 13:07:18 sicking: chrome and firefox are more or less fully spec conformant 13:07:21 ... ie10 is mostly there 13:07:26 ... i don't know about opera 13:07:28 mjs has joined #webapps 13:07:29 odinho_: pretty done 13:07:36 sicking: including blobs and array keypath? 13:07:40 jaubourg has joined #webapps 13:07:42 odinho_: array keypath, yes 13:07:46 ... blobs, some blobs 13:07:48 [ laughter ] 13:07:48 q+ 13:07:56 odinho_: it's being reviewed 13:08:02 ... we need to figure out ordering 13:08:05 ... exceptions 13:08:12 ... we want to get it in pretty soonish 13:08:52 Yuan has joined #webapps 13:09:14 odinho_: blocked error 13:09:19 sicking: blocked vs. error 13:09:28 odinho_: having a blocked error vs. an onblocked event 13:09:59 ... we wanted a simpler thing 13:10:07 ... where the developer ... 13:10:51 sicking: we disagree 13:10:57 dgrogan_cloud: internally we talked about it 13:11:01 ... we liked opera's proposal 13:11:06 ... but since we already implemented 13:11:11 ... we're ambivalent 13:11:20 sicking: there's the question of what microsoft wants 13:11:32 ... there's also the question of exposing GC behavior 13:11:36 ... the spec exposes some 13:11:47 ... but if we do more, we may expose more GC 13:11:58 ... the root cause is that there are GC effects 13:12:12 ... i'm concerned about changing the spec given how implemented it is 13:12:14 ack dgrogan_cloud 13:12:22 dgrogan_cloud: i don't know if we want to discuss this further 13:12:57 adrianba: we don't want to change the behavior we've implemented 13:12:58 paul-huawei has joined #webapps 13:13:06 ... we've shipped this 13:13:07 ... we're building applications that depend on this 13:13:13 q+ 13:13:16 ... the new version of exchange supports offline email using indexeddb 13:13:30 annevk has joined #webapps 13:13:36 chaals: so we have legacy implementation 13:13:51 ... such is life 13:14:01 ... is opera's request just make work? 13:14:17 sicking: so far, no one has opposed adding opera's requested behavior in a new function 13:14:25 ... i don't have a strong opinion 13:14:30 waynecarr has joined #webapps 13:14:38 ... but people will use the short named one with the bad behavior 13:14:49 odinho_: if it has a longer name it will be less frequently used 13:14:54 ack odinho_ 13:15:06 odinho_: i hope your exchange app doesn't need this 13:15:21 ... if the browser asks the page to close the connection, it should probably close the connection 13:15:24 ... it's a corner case 13:15:34 we tried arguing this for a while before 13:15:39 ... it's quite late for us as well 13:15:49 ... we implemented the other thing, it was extremely quick to do 13:15:56 ... the consensus is to keep the spec as is 13:15:59 ... it's a corner case 13:16:06 ... hopefully it won't hurt too much 13:16:19 ... if it starts hurting, we'd fix it in bug fixing 13:16:24 ... v2 features 13:16:32 ... get database names 13:16:39 sicking: i think firefox is the only one w/o it 13:16:51 odinho_: we implemented it as we saw in the email 13:16:59 ... since everyone is implementing this 13:17:05 divya has joined #webapps 13:17:05 ... it'll be on the web platform in some form 13:17:11 divya1 has joined #webapps 13:17:27 sicking: we need to be able to figure out how to elevate new features 13:17:49 ... if someone wants to work on extended functions in a v2 13:17:57 ... for get database names 13:18:03 ... i'd request it's a safe thing 13:18:14 ... if you try to open it right away 13:18:26 ... you're guaranteed to have it there with the version number you were told 13:18:44 virginie_galindo has joined #webapps 13:18:46 odinho_: we did it super fast, so it probably doesn't do that 13:19:09 sicking: that was my requirement when we discussed it earlier 13:19:20 ... ms came back and said it makes sense but didn't they could do it in time 13:19:32 yamaday has joined #webapps 13:19:38 ... it's implementable, but non-trivial to implement 13:20:27 darobin has joined #webapps 13:20:32 Bo_Chen has joined #webapps 13:20:44 adrianba: the other thing is that we've been close to a long time 13:20:58 ... but we should get this first spec finalized 13:21:18 sicking: i'm not interested in adding features for v1 13:21:25 odinho_: for some internal stuff, we need this 13:21:38 ... since we need it, we're going to implement it 13:22:00 chaals: can we put it in an FPWD 13:22:09 sicking: i'm happy to put it in a draft if people are 13:22:15 chaals: sicking to write a v2 draft 13:22:20 odinho_: by next week 13:22:20 Norbert_ has joined #webapps 13:22:20 q+ 13:22:24 chaals: i heard by tomorrow 13:22:39 ArtB: v1 is in LC 13:22:46 RRSAgent, draft minutes 13:22:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless 13:23:16 shepazu has joined #webapps 13:23:25 ArtB: what's eliott's status? 13:23:33 adrianba: he's been pretty busy, but he's available 13:23:40 sicking: there's also exception ordering 13:23:48 ... which could be a big chunk of work 13:23:57 BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM has joined #webapps 13:24:15 ArtB: can i assume sicking and israel can help? 13:24:20 q+ short about the undefined handling 13:24:28 dgrogan_cloud: i don't think anyone from google has touched editing 13:24:41 ArtB: we can editors 13:24:50 dgrogan_cloud: those editors have moved on to other projects 13:25:09 odinho_: the bug about undefined handling sounds uncontroversiall 13:25:11 s/all/al/ 13:25:16 ... treat undefined as missing 13:25:25 q- 13:25:38 sicking: i think the behavior has been decided on 13:25:51 ... webidl spec doesn't define the desired behavior 13:26:02 ... treat-undefined-as-missing will be the default behavior 13:26:12 dgrogan_cloud: sounds like these are editorial things 13:26:14 chaals: there's issues 13:26:20 ... but not complex/controversial 13:26:27 sicking: i think the only one is open() 13:26:33 ... the exception issue is technical 13:26:40 ... but it just needs to be defined 13:27:13 ArtB: can anyone from Apple/Safari comment? 13:27:25 bradee-oh: we have no comment 13:27:45 chaals: does anyone care about websql? 13:27:56 timeless: can you please bury it further than it's already buried? 13:28:05 chaals: i don't know where's it's buried 13:28:09 ... so good. 13:28:19 [ Break until 2:45pm ] 13:28:25 topic: Push APIs 13:28:55 SimonPieters has joined #webapps 13:31:01 Arno has joined #webapps 13:31:15 JonathanJ has joined #webapps 13:31:30 tomoyuki has joined #webapps 13:32:18 jeff has joined #webapps 13:35:38 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:35:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html JonathanJ 13:35:46 kotakagi has joined #webapps 13:37:29 Shinji has joined #webapps 13:42:56 sgodard has joined #webapps 13:44:42 jfmoy has left #webapps 13:44:45 spoussa has joined #webapps 13:44:52 jfmoy has joined #webapps 13:45:01 Zakim, call Rhone_3 13:45:01 sorry, timeless, I don't know what conference this is 13:45:18 Zakim, this is 2012 13:45:18 npdoty, I see IA_WebApps()4:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 2012". 13:45:24 Zakim, this will be 2012 13:45:24 ok, npdoty; I see IA_WebApps()4:00AM scheduled to start 345 minutes ago 13:45:31 Zakim, call Rhone_3 13:45:31 ok, npdoty; the call is being made 13:45:32 IA_WebApps()4:00AM has now started 13:45:33 +Rhone_3 13:45:52 Zakim, who is making noise? 13:46:05 npdoty, listening for 12 seconds I could not identify any sounds 13:46:08 -Rhone_3 13:46:09 IA_WebApps()4:00AM has ended 13:46:09 Attendees were Rhone_3 13:46:22 paul-huawei has joined #webapps 13:46:50 Zakim, call Rhone_3 13:46:50 ok, npdoty; the call is being made 13:46:51 IA_WebApps()4:00AM has now started 13:46:53 +Rhone_3 13:47:26 -Rhone_3 13:47:27 IA_WebApps()4:00AM has ended 13:47:27 Attendees were Rhone_3 13:48:05 a1zu has joined #webapps 13:48:48 Zakim, call Rhone_3 13:48:48 ok, npdoty; the call is being made 13:48:49 IA_WebApps()4:00AM has now started 13:48:51 +Rhone_3 13:49:01 Zakim, who is making noise? 13:49:11 npdoty, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds 13:49:14 Zakim, who is making noise? 13:49:19 a12u has joined #webapps 13:49:24 Zakim, who is on the phone? 13:49:24 On the phone I see Rhone_3 13:49:26 npdoty, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds 13:49:30 RRSAgent, draft minutes 13:49:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless 13:49:46 if you're trying to call in, please let us know if you are hearing anything, and if not, ping me 13:49:56 bryan: we reached fpwd 13:50:02 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/push/raw-file/default/index.html 13:50:45 ... i'd suggest we do a quick run through 13:50:54 ... hopefully many people have taken a look at this 13:50:59 Hidetoshi has joined #webapps 13:51:00 ... we originally presented this in 2009 13:51:04 MagnusOlsson has joined #webapps 13:51:11 aizu has joined #webapps 13:51:14 ... last year we proposed doing this in the web-apps recharter 13:51:26 ... in the interim we worked on this outside w3c 13:52:02 ... this puts together things that are possible today using different methods 13:52:02 Yune_ has joined #webapps 13:52:13 ... the focus of this api is on what happens between the application and its runtime 13:52:16 jaubourg has joined #webapps 13:52:31 q+ 13:52:35 ... practical implementations take into account the platform in which the application runs 13:52:47 ... that includes browser/native os platforms 13:52:47 mjs has joined #webapps 13:52:54 ... or platforms from OMA/SMS/SIP 13:53:15 ... whichever API is available/supported by the UA is supported through the API 13:53:21 ... when we put out our CfC 13:53:23 Cyril has joined #webapps 13:53:29 ... we only got a question from sicking 13:53:44 ... we can take comments, or walk through the spec... 13:53:51 chaals: can we skip through rapidly? 13:54:03 chaals: who implements? 13:54:26 sicking: for mozilla 13:54:34 ... unfortunately, it isn't an easy answer 13:54:41 ... there are patches to do the proposed api for gecko 13:54:42 BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM has joined #webapps 13:54:45 yamaday has joined #webapps 13:54:46 ... for Firefox OS 13:54:50 ... (B2G) 13:55:03 ... it was very recently decided that it wouldn't ship in the initial release of Firefox OS 13:55:07 ... the api is implementable 13:55:20 ... there's also an implementation of the server side infrastructure 13:55:31 ... the reason we aren't putting in v1 is the set of reasons from my email 13:55:37 Yuan has joined #webapps 13:55:38 ... we're not convinced it's the right solution 13:55:51 ... we are going to start working on experimenting to see what we think is the right solution 13:55:56 chaals: you're interested in Push 13:56:01 ... you want to make something work 13:56:06 adrianba_ has joined #webapps 13:56:10 ... if we had the same spec w/ different content? 13:56:16 sicking: we're very interested in push 13:56:20 ... but we want a good design 13:56:30 /me sicking "implementation" -> "design" ? 13:56:52 s| /me sicking "implementation" -> "design" ?|| 13:56:56 RRSAgent, draft minutes 13:56:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless 13:57:24 ed: we're working w/ mozilla 13:57:28 ... and are very interested 13:57:30 jcverdie has joined #webapps 13:57:33 BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM: we're interested 13:57:40 ... we won't be precisely implementing it 13:57:47 ... but we're supportive of this unified api 13:58:05 Yves has joined #webapps 13:58:08 Wonsuk has joined #webapps 13:58:15 ... there's a question of whether there's a broker 13:58:20 ... in /above the browser 13:58:25 ... and accessible by web apps 13:58:56 chaals: you don't implement your own browser 13:59:01 BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM: no, we don't 13:59:13 darobin has joined #webapps 13:59:14 chaals: some operators say to certain browsers "you will do this" 13:59:23 ... and some produce enough content that browsers will do this 13:59:28 morrita has joined #webapps 13:59:40 BO_HU_CHINA_UNICOM: we may have significant influence over Chinese browsers 13:59:51 ... if every web application builds on their own channel 13:59:55 ... that's something to avoid 14:00:07 ... it will have negative impact on devices and networks 14:00:13 q+ 14:00:17 pbakaus: we're interested in this 14:00:28 ... we want to push messages to the client 14:00:32 ... in our games 14:00:35 q? 14:00:38 ack q 14:00:40 ack chaals 14:00:49 ack me 14:00:51 bryan: we believe there is a lot of interest in the concept 14:01:02 ack sick 14:01:06 ... it isn't possible today to do this outside an app by app connection, or a shared worker 14:01:36 ... how things are done is less of a concern than that they are done 14:02:00 KenjiBX has joined #webapps 14:02:18 sicking: this draft is a lot closer to the right api 14:02:25 ... than anything else that's been discussed in this space 14:02:30 ... i'd love to hear from apple and google 14:02:37 q+ to note that MS announced it had for Skype in wp8 14:02:45 trackbot has joined #webapps 14:02:51 ... i'll note that a lot of companies have experience 14:02:59 ... is apple interested in push for the web? 14:03:04 shh has joined #webapps 14:03:14 mjs: i think we'll need to wait for our legal department's review of this FPWD 14:03:29 ... from a technical review, i haven't read/considered this spec 14:03:39 ... your review has the concerns i'd want to express 14:03:49 ... scalability and authentication are what i'd worry about 14:04:05 sicking: can we get the people w/ experience to comment? 14:04:13 mjs: probably not possible to get them to comment directly 14:04:19 ... they aren't involved in standards 14:04:25 kawada has joined #webapps 14:04:31 ... but i can probably get them to look at it and forward comments 14:04:41 mjs: the way apple addressed this 14:04:49 ... is that apple devices only trust apple servers 14:05:07 and apple forces app authors to create certificates which we trust 14:05:13 kawada has left #webapps 14:05:13 ... i don't know of a way to avoid spam 14:05:36 sicking: i think this spec requires the device to trust the push server 14:05:41 ... but not the push server to trust the device 14:05:58 rafaelw: i think we're interested 14:06:11 q? 14:06:13 ack me 14:06:13 timeless, you wanted to note that MS announced it had for Skype in wp8 14:06:32 ACTION: rafael provide feedback on Push API 14:06:35 Created ACTION-672 - Provide feedback on Push API [on Rafael Weinstein - due 2012-11-05]. 14:06:45 adrianba_: so 14:07:03 ... right now, Microsoft's experience / position is similar to mjs's outline of Apple's 14:07:12 ... notifications are built on top of windows live notifications 14:07:17 ... that messenger has provided 14:07:20 kensaku has joined #webapps 14:07:22 ... we have a generic notification system 14:07:28 ... operated by microsoft for WP 14:07:33 q+ 14:07:36 ... it's tied in to the services provided by microsoft 14:07:52 chaals: does Opera have any position? 14:07:59 jgraham: i know nothing 14:08:20 q? 14:08:23 ack ArtB 14:08:31 rotsuya has joined #webapps 14:08:35 ArtB: quick question, probably to bryan and ed 14:08:36 ... in section 9 14:08:51 it is efullea, not ed 14:09:08 ... are there issues w/ w3 having normative references to OMA / similar specs? 14:09:14 bryan: i'm not aware of any 14:09:29 ... establishing an api to connect to something supported by the device 14:09:34 ... shouldn't be an issue 14:09:43 chaals: tizen? 14:10:10 Wonsuk: Wonsuk, Samsung 14:10:15 ... for Tizen 14:10:47 ... i think it's a core feature for a lot of mobile apps including Games/apps 14:11:00 ... Samsung has its own service for this 14:11:14 chaals: so, everyone has a push system 14:11:21 ... everyone who has one doesn't need a standard 14:11:30 ... everyone who doesn't have a system want a standard 14:11:51 bryan: in 80% of phones worldwide, push is supported 14:14:02 scribe: chaals 14:14:03 30 minutes for coffee starting now, unless you want to talk about Push API details, in which case stick around 14:14:21 timeless: "this" example is requesting permission. How does the server side discover where it wants to talk to? 14:14:28 … does the platform get called to the URI? 14:15:13 … eg, zynga has an app on a phone, apple runs the network. I open the phone, how does the zynga app register to the cloud, so the zynga server knows where to send the push notification? 14:15:41 Bryan: There is a URL that the push service provides for the app to register and invoke the operation. 14:16:04 … It's the service URL in the activate variable (we are in example 1) 14:16:29 … it is passed up to the application, to kbow where to invoke messages and what protocols are supported. 14:16:46 +Yves 14:17:00 … There are a variety of ways it could be done - people have worked on this for a dozen years or more. 14:17:56 sakkuru has joined #webapps 14:18:14 Present+ Ryan_Sleevi 14:18:16 Bryan. It is intended to describe the context of how push can work 14:18:36 … show use cases like RTC, activity getting woken, multiple instances of apps, etc. 14:18:46 … THings that folow from the use cases we proposed early on. 14:19:04 … Security/Privacy section was filled in on request - this is fairly boilerplate text copied from DAP. 14:19:09 timeless: fwiw, "&serverProtocols="+mypush.serverProtocols; should probably have an encode method, otherwise it's asking for pain :) 14:19:24 … referenced Jonas' comments 14:19:33 … So those are noted open questions for further discussion. 14:20:00 kotakagi has joined #webapps 14:20:17 … Framework section gives a general explanation, but main bit is between the app and the user agent. There are some artifacts coming from the way permission is arranged. 14:20:54 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:20:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html timeless 14:21:01 … for registration. Challenge we have seen in current push systems is developers lacking a way to globally implement a push-based app. 14:21:25 … We're not presuming to establish one protocol for everyone, but to enable the app to discover what services are available in a given context. 14:22:59 … We have pretty much taken the suggestions from Jonas on attributes for the interface. They facilitate some of the questions about keys, etc. We need to get into detail about how this addresses security, etc. Otherwise it is similar to server sent events in design - type of events, ready state, etc. 14:24:29 … There is a section on service bindings. Based on work done outside W3C and what might work well in W3C context. We left stuff out to simplify, eg headers (compared to OMA) 14:25:19 … Same for SMS - no headers... 14:25:40 Yune has joined #webapps 14:31:11 zhoulan has joined #webapps 14:31:30 tomoyuki has joined #webapps 14:32:38 jcverdie has joined #webapps 14:36:08 divya has joined #webapps 14:38:10 Shinji has joined #webapps 14:39:49 edoyle has joined #webapps 14:40:03 Yune_ has joined #webapps 14:40:38 zhoulan has left #webapps 14:41:34 npdoty has joined #webapps 14:44:29 morrita has joined #webapps 14:45:31 RRSAgent, make minutes 14:45:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 14:45:37 tomoyuki has joined #webapps 14:45:43 zakim, who's here? 14:45:43 On the phone I see Rhone_3, Yves 14:45:44 On IRC I see tomoyuki, morrita, npdoty, Yune_, edoyle, Shinji, divya, jcverdie, kotakagi, sakkuru, kensaku, trackbot, KenjiBX, darobin, Yves, adrianba_, Cyril, mjs, aizu, 14:45:44 ... MagnusOlsson, paul-huawei, sgodard, Arno, SimonPieters, shepazu, waynecarr 14:47:28 Zakim, code? 14:47:28 the conference code is 2012 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), npdoty 14:49:27 smaug_ has joined #webapps 14:49:47 rotsuya has joined #webapps 14:50:22 + +1.650.214.aaaa 14:51:41 tokamoto has joined #webapps 14:51:43 Scribe+ ArtB 14:51:48 Topic: Shadow DOM 14:51:57 scribe: timeless 14:51:58 a12u has joined #webapps 14:51:59 DG: [provides some history of the spec ...] 14:52:00 Present+ Koichi_Takagi 14:52:11 dglazkov: custom dom elements 14:52:17 spoussa has joined #webapps 14:52:19 ... i started writing as a response to 14:52:25 ... the needs from the mozilla folks 14:52:32 ... who started implementing some of these things 14:52:40 ... i felt i needed to start capturing requirements 14:52:49 ... this spec is in the very early stages at this point 14:53:05 ... for when people ask "how does this work" 14:53:11 ... the shadow dom spec is in really good shape 14:53:22 ... someone said "no plan survives contact with the enemy" 14:53:26 yamaday has joined #webapps 14:53:29 ... in this case, the enemy is the users 14:53:38 Yongrok has joined #webapps 14:53:39 ... we discover that we haven't thought about this/we haven't thought about that 14:53:51 ... the other thing that can happen 14:53:56 ... we tried to work w/ CSS WG a bit more 14:54:05 ... there's a lot of concepts that bleed over from shadow dom into css 14:54:21 RRSAgent, make minutes 14:54:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webapps-minutes.html ArtB 14:54:56 ... currently some things are hard coded in shadow dom 14:54:57 sgodard has joined #webapps 14:55:04 ... but i want to redefine it in terms of displayed content 14:55:10 ... which will enable the text to disappear 14:55:31 ... i'm going to let rafaelw cover html templates 14:55:43 rafaelw: html templates is a collaboration between google and microsoft 14:55:56 ... trossi 14:55:58 ... the