IRC log of eo on 2012-10-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:20:49 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eo
12:20:49 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/26-eo-irc
12:20:51 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
12:20:51 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #eo
12:20:53 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3694
12:20:53 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
12:20:54 [trackbot]
Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference
12:20:54 [trackbot]
Date: 26 October 2012
12:21:02 [Sharron]
Chair: Shawn
12:21:08 [Sharron]
Scribe: Sharron
12:23:07 [Sharron]
Regrets:Helle, Jennifer, Emmanuelle, (maybe: Shadi, Andrew, Suzette)
12:23:07 [Suzette2]
Suzette2 has joined #eo
12:26:59 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
12:27:06 [Zakim]
+Wayne_Dick
12:28:38 [Wayne]
All the monkies in the zoo give their best regards to you, good morning.
12:28:44 [Zakim]
+Sharron
12:29:54 [Zakim]
+Shawn
12:31:02 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
12:31:23 [Sharron]
zakim, [IPcaller] is Suzette
12:31:23 [Zakim]
+Suzette; got it
12:34:23 [Andrew]
Andrew has joined #eo
12:35:40 [IanPouncey]
IanPouncey has joined #eo
12:36:17 [Sharron]
Topic: WebPlatform Docs
12:36:26 [shawn]
http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/Main_Page
12:36:40 [shawn]
encouraging and monitoring accessibility info
12:36:55 [Sharron]
Shawn: The issue is to encourage and monitor accessibility issue within this work.
12:37:23 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
12:37:32 [Sharron]
Suzette: I discovered that someone had changed something in our materials. I have changed it back and wondered what was the protocol about that.
12:38:34 [IanPouncey]
Zakim, IPcaller is me
12:38:34 [Zakim]
+IanPouncey; got it
12:38:45 [Zakim]
+Sylvie_Duchateau
12:39:36 [sylvie]
sylvie has joined #eo
12:39:37 [Sharron]
Shawn: Thanks for doing that. I need to find out why I did not get notification since I am set for a watch on those pages.
12:40:03 [sylvie]
zakim, mute me
12:40:03 [Zakim]
Sylvie_Duchateau should now be muted
12:40:15 [Sharron]
...so that is one thing, how to manage changes that others make.
12:40:38 [Zakim]
+ +61.4.473.8.aaaa
12:40:49 [Andrew]
zakim, aaaa is Andrew
12:40:49 [Zakim]
+Andrew; got it
12:40:51 [Sharron]
...but the broader issue is to go through and encourage people to contribute, especially to contribute accessibility considerations on other pages.
12:41:28 [Sharron]
...so in general techniques for images, for example, add how to think about text alternatives, etc.
12:42:34 [IanPouncey]
IanPouncey has joined #eo
12:42:50 [Sharron]
Shawn: Anymore thoughts about how to engage people. Make a list of where we think accessibility is needed, post it to WAI-Engage or WebDocs itself, and seek volunteers to help with integration of accessibility into the overall work.
12:43:17 [Sharron]
Sharron: I think that is a great idea.
12:44:09 [Sharron]
ACTION: Shawn will query WebPlatform Docs about 1. why no notification and 2. where to post accessiiblity volunteer recruitment request.
12:44:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-222 - Will query WebPlatform Docs about 1. why no notification and 2. where to post accessiiblity volunteer recruitment request. [on Shawn Henry - due 2012-11-02].
12:44:13 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
12:44:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Wayne_Dick, Sharron, Shawn, Suzette, IanPouncey, Sylvie_Duchateau (muted), Andrew
12:44:58 [Sharron]
Sharron: I think of posting for volunteers is good but should we not have a proess for EO to monitor?
12:45:43 [Sharron]
Shawn: Ask for people to volunteer, put their name on it, and then when we get notification we can review.
12:46:09 [Suzette2]
q+
12:46:21 [Sharron]
Andrew: Anyone can log in and change even without putting it on out list, is that true?
12:47:08 [shawn]
ack s
12:47:32 [Sharron]
Shawn: But there are so many pages and so many edits I can only assume no one wants to watch all of it. Could ask if we can watch a tag (like accessibility) and/or if someone like Chris IS watching all of it, he might alert us when accessibility info is added.
12:47:44 [Wayne]
http://ai.stanford.edu/users/sahami/CS2013/
12:48:30 [Sharron]
Suzette: Concepts pages have a stack of things about accessibility that look like they are randome, not really what is of most importance, and not particularly the items that should be worked on by the community.
12:48:53 [Sharron]
Shawn: I agree and maybe we can talk to Chris and Doug about that next week at TPAC.
12:50:00 [IanPouncey]
IanPouncey has joined #eo
12:50:19 [Sharron]
...but since EO has not yet come up with the specific list of what we should add to this, it is not yet clear how we can proceed. We need to include Accessibility Basics in this Concepts page.
12:51:25 [IanPouncey]
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12:52:27 [Sharron]
Shawn: There may be some things that would good to develop within WebPlatform Docs.
12:52:32 [IanPouncey]
IanPouncey has joined #eo
12:52:50 [Sharron]
Sharron: Yes, I think it is improtant to have integrated materials
12:53:33 [Sharron]
Andrew: And some testing pointers that will let people know that they can get more detail in WAI.
12:54:19 [Sharron]
Wayne: How about something as simple as when you are taking their course on HTML, we might have specific pointers to Success Criteria.
12:54:30 [Sharron]
Shawn...and Techniques
12:54:59 [Sharron]
Sharron: Great idea, let's do it.
12:56:32 [Sharron]
... in the lsit of voluteers make the task that simple. Find related topic and do the pointing as an example for others.
12:56:48 [Sharron]
Wayne: I could volunteer in January
12:59:50 [Sharron]
Wayne: This is the curriculum guidelines at Stanford and have posted their strawman for comment. This is what they will use as computer science curriculum all around the world. Their revisions are done every 3 to 5 years and the time is now. http://ai.stanford.edu/users/sahami/CS2013/
13:00:30 [Sharron]
...I just found out about it this week and have not been able to comment.
13:02:00 [Wayne]
Alvaro Monge
13:02:56 [Sharron]
ACTION: Wayne to find volunteer to flag any language about accessibility and to suggest where such language needs to be added.
13:02:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-223 - Find volunteer to flag any language about accessibility and to suggest where such language needs to be added. [on Wayne Dick - due 2012-11-02].
13:04:08 [Sharron]
Topic: Evaluation Analysis
13:04:09 [shawn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Eval_Analysis
13:04:31 [Sharron]
Shawn: Suzette do you want to mention the changes you made this week?
13:05:17 [Sharron]
Suzette: The work on the scenarios? It was design as a new issue, distinct from development.
13:06:03 [Sharron]
...so I have now included that concpet in the fourth row, while developing design specification, but it may not be the right place.
13:06:35 [Sharron]
...don't know whether that captured what we spoke about last week, if it should be recast as the commisioner of the web site.
13:07:31 [Sharron]
Shawn: May want to put in early prototypes, wireframes etc to make it more explicit. The role would be irrelevant, jsut the specifics of the issue of early consideration
13:08:09 [Andrew]
page mockups
13:08:52 [Sharron]
Suzette: I hesitate to add more, seems likely to be most effective to have a small number of scenarios rather than so many it is hard to keep them all in mind, to get our heads around.
13:09:31 [IanPouncey]
Less is more
13:09:51 [Sharron]
Sharron: I agree that a smaller number, and integrate the idea of early consideration into those that exist.
13:10:37 [Sharron]
Shawn: In the WCAG-EM where we have six, could designate them as primary or secondary.
13:11:00 [Sharron]
Suzette: Which would we designate as which?
13:11:20 [Sharron]
Shawn: That is something that perhaps we ask WCAG-EM since it is their document.
13:11:46 [Sharron]
Andrew: You ahve a good order here already.
13:11:50 [Sharron]
Wayne: Yes I agree
13:12:46 [Sharron]
Wanye: I'll take a few minutes to review with UI design in mind, and drop in anything I see that is missing.
13:12:55 [Sharron]
Topic: Address accessibility early
13:13:08 [shawn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Eval_in_process
13:13:30 [Andrew]
Address Accessibility Early and Often
13:14:05 [Sharron]
Shawn: If you ahve specific recommendations, we will put it here. If we have suggestions for how to most effectively address accessiblity early on, let's put it here. Thanks to Ian for adding to it.
13:14:30 [Sharron]
...please work on this in any way. This is a basic start, feel free to change.
13:14:54 [Sharron]
Wayne: I will put some work on it next week.
13:15:16 [Sharron]
Shawn: Any chance Suzette of making the changes by early next week?
13:15:42 [Sharron]
Wayne: OK I will get going and have it posted by Wednesday.
13:16:34 [Sharron]
...there are specific phases in UI Design. It has converged into a pretty standar set of steps. Putting accessibility considerations into that standard set will not be difficult.
13:17:45 [Sharron]
Shawn: Can you take a look at this wiki page? What is there is just an outline and I was hoping Suzette that you might have some specific suggestions about the design stage.
13:18:28 [Sharron]
Suzette: Yes, maybe by starting with a definition. Clarify the distinction between design and development.
13:18:53 [Sharron]
Shawn: And we will need to make decisions about how detailed we will be vs high level considerations.
13:19:32 [Sharron]
Ian: We might want to be more or less specific depending on the audience. Developers will tend to want very specific recommendations and designers maybe not as much.
13:20:19 [Sharron]
Suzette: Considerations must be made of CMS, visual goals, text based etc. That kind of establishing who you are and what your project goals are - those all seem to be quite high level.
13:20:57 [Sharron]
Shawn: Keep in mind that you are welocme to change headings, content, really anything here.
13:21:26 [Sharron]
Suzette: It will be improtant for people to be clear about their communication goals.
13:22:06 [Sharron]
Shawn: For those not at the F2F in particular, put your ideas here in the wiki before Tuesday of next week.
13:23:42 [Sharron]
...we will be looking at your comments on Wednesday
13:24:23 [Sharron]
Topic: Preliminary Evaluation/Review
13:24:24 [Andrew]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation
13:24:54 [Sharron]
Shawn: Suzette, you wanted to comment on the new materials there from Wayne and Tom?
13:26:12 [Sharron]
Suzette: I like that it is not working through in order of the Guidelines but rather are more geared to a developer's mindset. It seems a nice way to approach this rather than the more generic, march trhough the Guidelines way.
13:26:42 [Sharron]
...things that make the text itself most accessible. I thought this was a quite useful structure.
13:27:23 [Sharron]
...seemed quite aligned with how developers work.
13:27:53 [Sharron]
Wayne: But we did keep the constraints of the Guidelines in mind
13:28:19 [Sharron]
Suzette: But it has an aspect of breaking free of them
13:29:30 [Sharron]
Wayne: Perhaps put Headings as part of general considerations of text structure.
13:29:50 [Sharron]
Ian: headings are a special case
13:30:20 [Sharron]
Sharron: But maybe you could add other considerations that you mentioned - list structure, etc
13:30:40 [Sharron]
Suzette: Functionally they are very much about navigation.
13:31:38 [Sharron]
Wayne: We started as a list quite closely geared to the Guidelines. As we used them to teach, students said - can't you make this more useful for how we actually work?
13:31:44 [Sharron]
...this was the result.
13:33:07 [Sharron]
...Jennifer said last time that there is a bunch of these kind of lists out there, maybe we want to look at those and come up with a synthesis. Tom and I feel like this is a good, solid start to a working process for accessibility integration.
13:34:41 [Sharron]
...has been vetted and evolved with input from many developers who were part of the ATI at CSU.
13:34:56 [Sharron]
Andrew: I have a few comments to add in there as appropriate.
13:35:24 [Sharron]
Wayne: I think we could link it the other way - for each item show how they address the SCs
13:36:39 [Sharron]
...this is not perfect and you will still need an audit at the end. But it helps to prevent the need of total redesing. We felt like this process will help avoid the design traps that could cause a structural redesign.
13:36:41 [Andrew]
one grouping of SC by topics is at http://www.w3.org/WAI/older-users/developing.html
13:37:13 [Sharron]
Topic: Updating Participating in WAI
13:37:15 [shawn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Participating_in_WAI
13:37:56 [Sharron]
Shawn: I started a wiki page, we may not have time to get to this at the F2F but in case we do, I wanted to point people to it.
13:38:06 [Sharron]
..what is the feeling of the group?
13:38:31 [shawn]
[deferred - plenty to do on evaluation!]
13:38:43 [Sharron]
Andrew: From experience, it seems wisest to stay on topic, not introduce soemthing that might distract from teh evaluation work.
13:39:59 [Sharron]
Wayne: back to the PreLim Eval for a minute. Maps.
13:40:22 [Sharron]
Andrew: Yes people are struggling with accessibility on geo-spatial applications.
13:40:41 [Sharron]
Wayne: Yes it is important, becoming ubiquitous. I need feedback on that.
13:41:06 [Sharron]
Sharron: Where do you want the feedback?
13:42:03 [Sharron]
Wayne: I think it is a weak point in the material I added to the wiki. Tried to add what I knew about accessibility for the older method of maps to the newer methods, but not sure it is successful.
13:42:24 [Sharron]
...I put together the best I could in a few days but would appreciate some input on that.
13:42:34 [Sharron]
Topic: Reminders
13:43:01 [shawn]
For WCAG-EM - complete sampling survey <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2012OctDec/0017.html>
13:43:25 [Sharron]
Shawn: Please take this survey, not public but open to EO
13:43:37 [sylvie]
zakim, unmute me
13:43:37 [Zakim]
Sylvie_Duchateau should no longer be muted
13:44:47 [Sharron]
Sylvie: It is quite long, about 20 minutes to complete.
13:45:04 [Sharron]
Wayne: Will they look at what we put on the wiki?
13:45:26 [Sharron]
Shawn: Yes, we formally submitted those comments.
13:46:20 [Sharron]
Sylvie: They ask about how do you choose the level of testing, how do you report, how do you choose pages, etc
13:46:53 [Sharron]
Andrew: Very detailed about how you put the samples together for testing. Seems they are trying to get some real world experince
13:47:17 [Sharron]
Sylvie: About 7 pages, more than 20 questions
13:48:23 [Sharron]
Suzette: Tried to answer, but had to leave to get more information. When I returned I had to start all over.
13:48:46 [Sharron]
Shawn: Would be good to have just the list of questions.
13:48:51 [shawn]
Training pages - complete publication survey <https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/waitraining2c/>
13:49:50 [Sharron]
Shawn: Tried to get this done last week, please do get to it.
13:50:56 [sylvie]
zakim, mute me
13:50:56 [Zakim]
Sylvie_Duchateau should now be muted
13:51:01 [shawn]
Update Availability for Upcoming EOWG Teleconferences
13:51:01 [shawn]
Complete actions for all EOWG (above) - updated weekly
13:51:32 [Sharron]
...update availability for telconferences, complete action items, inlcuding those at the top of the page (Action Items for ALL EO).
13:51:43 [Sharron]
..anything else for today?
13:54:26 [Sharron]
Sharron: Are we having a F2F at CSUN?
13:54:59 [Sharron]
Shawn: An actual work day meeting or a lunch?
13:55:18 [Sharron]
Sharron: I would go for a full work day
13:55:34 [Andrew]
+1 if it was possible
13:58:07 [Zakim]
-Shawn
13:58:09 [Zakim]
-Andrew
13:58:12 [Sharron]
trackbot, end meeting
13:58:12 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
13:58:12 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Wayne_Dick, Sharron, Shawn, Suzette, IanPouncey, Sylvie_Duchateau, +61.4.473.8.aaaa, Andrew
13:58:15 [Zakim]
-IanPouncey
13:58:15 [Zakim]
-Sylvie_Duchateau
13:58:16 [Zakim]
-Sharron
13:58:20 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:58:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/26-eo-minutes.html trackbot
13:58:21 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
13:58:21 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/26-eo-actions.rdf :
13:58:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shawn will query WebPlatform Docs about 1. why no notification and 2. where to post accessiiblity volunteer recruitment request. [1]
13:58:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/26-eo-irc#T12-44-09
13:58:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Wayne to find volunteer to flag any language about accessibility and to suggest where such language needs to be added. [2]
13:58:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/26-eo-irc#T13-02-56