20:57:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
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20:57:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:57:41 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
20:57:43 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:57:43 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
20:57:44 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:57:44 <trackbot> Date: 25 October 2012
20:58:00 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM has now started
20:58:06 <Zakim> +Rich
21:00:39 <Zakim> + +61.2.980.5.aaaa
21:00:51 <nikos> Zakim, 980.5 is me
21:00:51 <Zakim> sorry, nikos, I do not recognize a party named '980.5'
21:01:01 <nikos> Zakim, 980.5.aaaa is me
21:01:01 <Zakim> sorry, nikos, I do not recognize a party named '980.5.aaaa'
21:01:09 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
21:01:24 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
21:01:24 <Zakim> +ed; got it
21:01:31 <nikos> Zakim, +61 is me
21:01:31 <Zakim> +nikos; got it
21:01:53 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012OctDec/0016.html
21:02:38 <Zakim> +??P3
21:03:11 <krit> krit has joined #svg
21:03:12 <Tav> zakim, +??P3 is me
21:03:12 <Zakim> sorry, Tav, I do not recognize a party named '+??P3'
21:03:15 <krit> give me a second
21:03:32 <Zakim> -??P3
21:04:11 <Zakim> + +33.9.53.77.aabb
21:04:23 <Tav> zakim, +33.9 is me
21:04:23 <Zakim> +Tav; got it
21:04:44 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
21:04:47 <cyril> cyril has joined #svg
21:05:34 <krit> zakim, IPcaller is m
21:05:34 <Zakim> +m; got it
21:05:44 <krit> zakim, IPcaller is me
21:05:44 <Zakim> sorry, krit, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'
21:05:54 <krit> zakim, m is me
21:05:54 <Zakim> +krit; got it
21:05:54 <nikos> scribenick: nikos
21:06:07 <nikos> Topic: Percentage values for 'transform' on pattern, linear/radialGradient,
21:06:07 <nikos> clipPath
21:06:33 <nikos> krit: what does % on transform functions mean?
21:06:48 <nikos> ... is it relative to the bounding box of the object, i.e. a rect
21:06:57 <nikos> ... another possibility is user space, or the viewport
21:07:07 <nikos> ... so the percentage would be a percentage of a dimension of the viewport
21:07:16 <nikos> s/of a/of the
21:07:33 <nikos> ... if you compare with transforms, it's relative to the bounding box
21:07:54 <nikos> ... I would like to do the same with resources, if you have clippath with a transform, it's relative to the bounding box
21:08:03 <nikos> nikos: I agree with you
21:08:10 <nikos> ed: It makes more sense to have it that way
21:08:25 <nikos> Tav: for somethings, don't we allow the user to select?
21:09:36 <nikos> krit: there is no way to select for transform
21:09:52 <ed> Zakim, regrets+ cyril
21:09:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'regrets+ cyril', ed
21:10:04 <nikos> ... it is also conformant with how we have done it in the psat
21:10:07 <ed> regrets+ cyril
21:10:32 <nikos> nikos: what about rotation?
21:10:44 <nikos> krit: we don't accept percentage for rotate
21:10:59 <nikos> Tav: using the bounding box is easier in the code
21:11:28 <nikos> Tav: just to be clear, we are talking about bounding box without markers or stroke?
21:11:33 <nikos> krit: the object bounding box
21:11:52 <nikos> ... it does not include stroke or markers
21:12:59 <nikos> resolution: percentage values on transform functions will be relative to the object bounding box of the referencing element
21:14:15 <nikos> Topic: spreadMethod on gradients
21:14:16 <Tav> http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/RADIALGRAD/index.html
21:14:37 <nikos> Tav: I started looking at the changes to gradients, I had a question
21:14:44 <nikos> ... what do we do for the different spread methods?
21:15:02 <nikos> ... what confused me, was the second figure (on that page)
21:15:40 <nikos> krit: the big white circle should be filled with pad
21:16:07 <nikos> ... can we agree that spread methods are still useful?
21:16:24 <nikos> Tav: well it would be inconsistent if you didn't have them
21:16:34 <nikos> krit: what I really miss, is having spreadMethod none
21:16:52 <nikos> Tav: I thought about that and was going to suggest it until I realised Canvas always does padding
21:17:04 <nikos> krit: for gradients, I want it to be compatible with Canvas, doesn't mean we can't do more
21:17:10 <nikos> Tav: I'm not sure how useful none is
21:17:32 <nikos> ed: it would mean you wouldn't fill the shape potentially, I'm not sure how useful it is either
21:18:15 <nikos> krit: the only graphics library I know that doesn't support none is core graphics, I think it could be useful
21:18:46 <nikos> Tav: if you look at fig 5, I wanted to check if it's rendered correctly?
21:18:49 <nikos> krit: it is
21:19:12 <nikos> Tav: the only difference between SVG and Canvas, is what happens when the start and end circle are touching
21:19:26 <nikos> krit: there shouldn't be a difference
21:19:42 <nikos> ... you mean fully overlapping right?
21:19:54 <nikos> Tav: no I mean touching one point (fig 7)
21:20:04 <nikos> ... Canvas does not fill the entire plane, SVG does
21:20:08 <nikos> krit: I'm not sure about that
21:20:29 <nikos> ... if you think about infinite big circles, the right side can never be filled
21:20:44 <nikos> Tav: if you look at the SVG spec, it says you average the colours and fill the right part with the averaged value
21:20:58 <nikos> krit: It should do exactly as you have drawn in fig7
21:21:09 <nikos> Tav: it would be different if you had spreadMethod=reflect or repeat
21:21:27 <nikos> ed: the spreadMethod is just how to repeat the colours, not the shape
21:21:42 <nikos> krit: correct
21:21:51 <Tav> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/pservers.html#RadialGradientNotes
21:23:52 <nikos> nikos: is there any difference if the focal circle touches the outer circle, or if the focal circle touches the outer circle?
21:24:03 <nikos> krit: there should be no difference
21:24:46 <nikos> ... in Canvas the area to the right should be transparent
21:24:59 <nikos> ... mathematically it is transparent, but it could be specced to be filled
21:25:03 <nikos> ... do we want consistency?
21:25:23 <nikos> ed: for CSS gradient the same problem applies, I think Tab was saying that the CSS group preferred the averaging
21:25:29 <nikos> ... we have discussed this before
21:26:06 <nikos> krit: it's a question of whether we want to be compatible with CSS gradients or with HTML Canvas
21:27:08 <nikos> ed: sometimes it's nice to have the fill
21:27:53 <nikos> nikos: since we are allowing CSS gradient paint servers, why not spec the opposite in SVG, then you can select one or the other?
21:28:09 <nikos> krit: for Webkit, I'm not sure if it would be implemented
21:28:33 <nikos> ... I'm not sure if this edge case is even implemented for CSS gradients
21:28:50 <nikos> Tav: what is the status of the CSS spec? could they change it?
21:29:40 <ed> s/sometimes it's nice to have the fill/in general I find it nice if the paint servers fully fill the given shape/
21:30:06 <nikos> Action: Krit to craft some test cases to compare the implementations of gradients in CSS/Canvas/SVG
21:30:06 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find Krit. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users>.
21:30:34 <nikos> Action: krit to craft some test cases to compare the implementations of gradients in CSS/Canvas/SVG
21:30:34 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find krit. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users>.
21:30:49 <nikos> Action: dirk to craft some test cases to compare the implementations of gradients in CSS/Canvas/SVG
21:30:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3394 - Craft some test cases to compare the implementations of gradients in CSS/Canvas/SVG [on Dirk Schulze - due 2012-11-01].
21:31:29 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#radial-gradients
21:32:04 <nikos> ed: look at 4.2.3 for degenerate cases
21:32:52 <nikos> krit: in this case, CSS gradients don't have focal radius
21:33:29 <nikos> krit: if they have a radius of zero, what do they paint?
21:33:52 <nikos> ... I don't think this is the use case we are looking for
21:35:39 <krit> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css4-images/#conic-gradients
21:36:01 <nikos> ... CSS gradients doesn't matter, because you don't specify the bounds of the outer circle
21:36:44 <nikos> ... it's not specified in CSS 4 either
21:37:25 <nikos> ed: so for existing content, it would mean that you would see through some parts of the shape?
21:37:37 <nikos> krit: the problem is webkit and firefox always pushed the focal point inside the circle
21:37:52 <nikos> ... I think Opera is doing something similar
21:38:14 <nikos> ed: I'm leaning towards aligning with Canvas, but I would like to see some ...
21:38:24 <nikos> krit: We could ask authors what they want? Maybe discuss on the mailing list
21:38:54 <ed> s/some .../some testcases
21:40:35 <nikos> ed: do we want to wait for the test cases? or resolve on one of the options now?
21:40:59 <nikos> Tav: I'd say wait
21:41:14 <nikos> Topic: Publication schedule for SVG2
21:41:35 <nikos> ed: I'm not sure if we decided when the next publication would happen
21:41:40 <nikos> ... but it would be good to have a date to work against
21:41:52 <nikos> ... so looking at the table of the current plan, we should have LC working draft in January
21:42:01 <nikos> krit: it's a tough schedule
21:42:13 <nikos> ed: that's what I'm thinking, I don't think we can take what we have now and go to LC
21:46:24 <nikos> krit: we should have a F2F before LC
21:46:30 <nikos> ... so that would be February
21:46:43 <nikos> ... I would like to have a second WG before we go to LC
21:46:48 <nikos> s/WG/WD
21:47:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: I have some travel in Februaary
21:47:36 <nikos> ed: so what dates would be realistic for a second working draft?
21:47:50 <nikos> krit: after our F2F seems to be reasonable
21:48:15 <nikos> ... I think there's more to discuss, i.e. security concerns for Mozilla
21:48:30 <nikos> s/for/from
21:49:01 <nikos> krit: can we resolve that we won't publish in January?  do we need to resolve on that?
21:49:09 <nikos> ed: I think it would be good to have a resolution to point to
21:50:32 <nikos> rich: was someone doing tab-index? what's the status of that?
21:51:22 <nikos> krit: the question is how much we need to specify in SVG? maybe we can rely on the definition in HTML5
21:51:34 <ed> ACTION-3341?
21:51:34 <trackbot> ACTION-3341 -- Doug Schepers to is going to look into conflicts between the model of tab index and navigation -- due 2012-08-30 -- OPEN
21:51:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/3341
21:51:45 <nikos> rich: I'm certainly going to use what we wrote up for ARIA in HTML5 because the wording was good
21:54:22 <nikos> resolution: goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February - after F2F
21:54:53 <nikos> action: ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in wiki to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February, after the F2F
21:54:53 <trackbot> Could not create new action (unparseable data in server response: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 7: ordinal not in range(128)) - please contact sysreq with the details of what happened.
21:55:06 <nikos> action: ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in wiki to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February, after the F2F
21:55:06 <trackbot> Could not create new action (unparseable data in server response: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 7: ordinal not in range(128)) - please contact sysreq with the details of what happened.
21:55:19 <nikos> action: ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in wiki to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February, after the F2F
21:55:19 <trackbot> Could not create new action (unparseable data in server response: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 7: ordinal not in range(128)) - please contact sysreq with the details of what happened.
21:55:37 <nikos> action: Erik to update SVG 2 publication schedule in wiki to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February, after the F2F
21:55:38 <trackbot> Could not create new action (unparseable data in server response: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 7: ordinal not in range(128)) - please contact sysreq with the details of what happened.
21:55:42 <nikos> action:ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in wiki to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February, after the F2F
21:56:14 <nikos> ed: so that brings last call dates forward a bit, not sure by how much
21:56:38 <nikos> ... we'll have to adjust the dates to be later
21:56:48 <nikos> rich: do we know when we are going to go to REC?
21:57:11 <nikos> krit: end of next year (2013) for CR stage
21:57:31 <nikos> rich: the reason I'm asking, is I'm working with ePub people, and they will want to know when the accessibility stuff will show up
21:58:30 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Commitments
21:58:35 <nikos> ed: so looking at the commitments page, there are plenty of things that haven't been put in the spec
21:59:32 <nikos> ed: all the ones that don't have commitment from anyone, are up for grabs if anyone is interested
22:00:11 <krit> http://www.w3.org/TR/filter-effects/
22:00:19 <nikos> Topic: Filter Effects
22:00:35 <krit> http://www.w3.org/TR/filter-effects/
22:01:06 <nikos> krit: filter effects WPD has been published
22:01:26 <nikos> krit: can I remove relaxNG from the spec?
22:01:29 <nikos> ... do we need it ?
22:01:41 <nikos> ... if it's useful, who will write it ?
22:01:54 <Zakim> -Tav
22:02:02 <nikos> ed: we had a starting point from a previous draft of SVG 2
22:02:10 <nikos> ... so there are some files that may be ready
22:02:28 <nikos> ... I'm not really sure what state they are in
22:02:34 <Zakim> +Tav
22:03:24 <nikos> krit: how does relaxNG work with HTML5 and validating there?
22:03:55 <nikos> ... I would rather remove it, it's adding complexity that is not needed
22:04:29 <nikos> ... currently, we just have a note in the spec that we want to provide it
22:05:12 <nikos> ed: I would be fine removing it
22:05:21 <nikos> ... if we don't have anyone who wants to do the work, we can remove it and if someone wants to do it later they can
22:05:35 <nikos> krit: sounds good
22:06:13 <Zakim> -krit
22:06:15 <nikos> RRSAgent, make minutes
22:06:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html nikos
22:06:17 <Zakim> -Tav
22:06:20 <Zakim> -nikos
22:06:23 <Zakim> -ed
22:06:27 <Zakim> -Rich
22:06:28 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM has ended
22:06:28 <Zakim> Attendees were Rich, +61.2.980.5.aaaa, ed, nikos, +33.9.53.77.aabb, Tav, krit
22:33:05 <nikos> I remember an idea/proposal by Tav (I think) which was about randomly scattering things, or scattering according to some gradient, but I can't find it now. Does anyone know what I'm talking about ?
22:33:24 <nikos> it might even be an InkScape feature
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