13:52:40 RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict 13:52:40 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/23-wcag2ict-irc 13:52:42 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:52:42 Zakim has joined #wcag2ict 13:52:44 Zakim, this will be 2428 13:52:44 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes 13:52:45 Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference 13:52:45 Date: 23 October 2012 13:57:08 BBailey has joined #wcag2ict 13:58:16 MaryJo has joined #wcag2ict 13:58:21 WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has now started 13:58:28 +Andi_Snow_Weaver 13:59:18 agenda+ Survey for October 19th Meeting, starting with item #3 Change 13:59:18 non-embedded (non-web) content - to - content https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/OCT172012/results 13:59:22 +Bruce_Bailey 13:59:49 zakim, i am bruce_bailey 13:59:49 ok, BBailey, I now associate you with Bruce_Bailey 14:00:01 + +1.512.255.aaaa 14:00:11 agenda+ Survey for October 12th Meeting, starting with item #10, Closed 14:00:11 Functionality - 1.4.2 Audio Control 14:00:31 zakim, aaaa is MaryJo 14:00:31 +MaryJo; got it 14:00:49 agenda+ Action Items http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/open 14:01:08 janina has joined #wcag2ict 14:01:43 +??P14 14:01:56 zakim, ??P14 is Janina_Sajka 14:01:56 +Janina_Sajka; got it 14:02:40 scribe: Mary_Jo_Mueller 14:02:44 scribenick: MaryJo 14:03:15 regrets: Alex_Li, Loïc_Martínez_Normand 14:03:25 + +01628590aabb 14:03:47 zakim, +01628590aabb is Kiran_Kaja 14:03:47 +Kiran_Kaja; got it 14:05:30 +Judy 14:05:55 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:05:55 On the phone I see Andi_Snow_Weaver, Bruce_Bailey, MaryJo, Janina_Sajka, Kiran_Kaja, Judy 14:07:23 + +1.510.334.aacc 14:08:12 korn has joined #wcag2ict 14:08:22 zakim, aacc is Peter_Korn 14:08:22 +Peter_Korn; got it 14:09:28 zakim, next item 14:09:28 agendum 1. "Survey for October 19th Meeting, starting with item #3 Change" taken up [from Andi] 14:09:31 Kaja has joined #wcag2ict 14:09:55 +Gregg_Vanderheiden 14:11:14 See https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/cross-cutting-issues-and-notes/remaining-3-scs 14:11:50 Judy has joined #wcag2ict 14:13:23 The reason sets work on the web is because the pages are at least sibling pages that link to each other. This helps to inform the definition of a set. 14:14:08 Multiple ways becomes almost impossible to fail on the web and with non-web content and software. 14:15:06 consistent navigation is between the items, not among the items. Internal organization wouldn't be required to be the same. 14:16:20 q? 14:16:31 Bypass blocks is the same as before where in software it is very easy to do. We aren't talking about arbitrary repeated blocks, but blocks repeated in multiple software applications not within a single software application. 14:17:48 How 'set' applies to software: 1) Consistency should only relate to things that go across documents or across software applications. 14:19:24 In web, there is navigation that is repeated on many pages, so you want to make sure it the navigational items are consistent. Reordering them is confusing to the user. We don't require the consistency on repeated navigational items on the page. 14:19:55 q+ 14:20:08 s/on the page/within a single page/ 14:20:52 For software, you have to have software applications that have linkages to each other for it to be a set - such as in open office. 14:21:19 There aren't a lot of examples of that. 14:22:15 q+ 14:22:19 The parts of the applications that interlink with each other would be required to have consistent navigation. 14:23:28 q+ to speak to Gregg's "including things that are easy to do" point 14:23:59 regrets+ Pierce_Crowell 14:24:32 q- 14:25:12 Some SC were still put into WCAG that were easy to meet because it is an important topic to consider (like 1.4.4 Resize text). 14:27:15 Andi has joined #wcag2ict 14:27:26 q? 14:27:28 ack korn 14:27:43 We need to define clearly what is a set of software, to delineate when this SC can be required of software. 14:29:15 An IDE environment is another example of software where the set is hard to define. There are integrated parts that are installed from the start, but you can integrate other parts into the IDE - are those considered part of the set? 14:31:18 Basically a set of software happens rarely where you are required to comply with the SC. 14:33:03 In a set of applications there are bi-directional linkages. If there are none, it isn't a set. 14:33:18 q+ 14:33:26 ack kaja 14:35:54 ack korn 14:37:56 There may be leaf nodes that don't link back so does that mean it isn't a set? File print doesn't link back to the main window, but just completes a process. 14:39:16 That example is a 'component' not a 'set'. The part that needs to be consistent is the navigation - not everything that is within the application. 14:43:00 We need some clear examples, or a constructed example of what a set of software is. We don't have the clear demarcation for software as we do in Web. Web has a URL. 14:44:08 We need to document all of the options we've discussed so we can present to WCAG. 14:47:21 q? 14:49:48 We need to document some options for WCAG working group to look at. Suggest (1) find some 'set' criteria we are comfortable with (2) It does apply within software and how or (3) It doesn't apply to software. 14:51:36 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/OCT172012/results 14:52:33 Need to also have some examples of Non-web, non-embedded content. 14:55:45 Proposal was made to say NWNE (Non-web non-embedded) before the word content since the definition of non-embedded content actually includes Web content. 14:55:58 q? 14:57:27 q+ 14:57:34 ack korn 14:57:38 q+ 14:58:08 q- 14:58:27 q+ 14:58:47 ack bruce 15:00:10 ack andi 15:00:10 Proposal was made to change the term 'non-embedded content' with 'NWNE content'. 15:01:20 new proposal in the meeting: change all instances of "non-embedded content" to "NWNE content" 15:02:49 greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict 15:03:05 Andi RESOLUTION: accept proposal to change "non-embedded content" to "NWNE content" 15:03:31 s/Andi RESOLUTION/RESOLUTION/ 15:04:25 +1 15:04:39 https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/definitions-from-glossary/d---content-web-content 15:09:59 +1 15:10:03 RESOLUTION: Accept proposed change from the meeting to change all instances of "non-embedded content" to "NWNE content". 15:10:27 topic: Closed functionality 15:10:35 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/OCT112012/results 15:10:54 q+ 15:11:25 Question to pose to WCAG - Have them clarify they mean navigation between pages, not navigation within pages. 15:11:34 http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/consistent-behavior-consistent-locations.html 15:12:45 Understanding section in this SC is a consistently located control (search field). How is this a navigational mechanism as opposed to a control or content presented consistently. 15:13:06 If the search gives you a list of links to another page, it is considered a navigational mechanism. 15:13:19 http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/quickref/#qr-consistent-behavior-consistent-locations 15:13:41 As long as the thing in the content has an impact on navigation, then it applies. 15:14:40 G61, PDF14 and PDF17 - How do these sufficient techniques tie to a navigational mechanism? They aren't navigational mechanisms. 15:14:54 http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20120103/G61 15:15:10 -Kiran_Kaja 15:15:10 These are good issues to bring up to the WCAG working gorup. 15:15:45 The ones that are really not navigational mechanisms should be moved to the advisory techniques. 15:16:51 Non-navigation things are getting mixed in with the navigation things where consistency is concerned. They shouldn't be included in the example. 15:18:15 q+ 15:18:39 q- 15:21:44 Any of the examples that are not completely sufficient themselves should not be listed as a sufficient technique. 15:22:25 ack bruce 15:22:57 q+ 15:23:53 In those examples, need to separate out what is required from what is good practice. 15:25:39 ack andi 15:25:50 Page 1: [non-link logo] [search form] 15:25:50 Page 2: [search form] 15:26:38 If a logo is a navigational element, any time the logo is present it must come before the search. If it isn't present, then search can be missing. It's just if both elements are present, they must be in the same order. There can be other things added in between them too, but the two elements must keep the same relative order. 15:26:46 Page a: [page without any other links] [search form] 15:26:47 page b: [page without any other links] [search form] [other non-link content] 15:27:35 Note: Examples of Success Criterion 3.2.3 A consistently located control A search field is the last item on every Web page in a site. users can quickly locate the search function. 15:28:09 If the logo is present on most pages and sometimes it links to the home page and sometimes it doesn't - is this a violation? 15:29:51 q+ 15:30:09 q- 15:32:51 -Peter_Korn 15:32:55 Introductory text needs to be reworked to bring it into agreement with our discussions today so we have it on Friday's survey. Needs to be coordinated with Judy. 15:32:57 -Bruce_Bailey 15:32:58 -Andi_Snow_Weaver 15:33:00 -MaryJo 15:33:03 -Janina_Sajka 15:33:05 janina has left #wcag2ict 15:33:08 rrsagent, make minutes 15:33:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/23-wcag2ict-minutes.html MaryJo 15:33:15 -Judy 15:33:16 WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has ended 15:33:16 Attendees were Andi_Snow_Weaver, Bruce_Bailey, +1.512.255.aaaa, MaryJo, Janina_Sajka, Kiran_Kaja, Judy, +1.510.334.aacc, Peter_Korn, Gregg_Vanderheiden 15:33:26 korn has left #wcag2ict 17:22:53 Judy has joined #wcag2ict 17:24:15 MichaelC has joined #wcag2ict 18:24:57 Andi has joined #wcag2ict 18:33:34 s/WCAG working gorup/WCAG working group/ 18:33:48 rrsagent, make minutes 18:33:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/23-wcag2ict-minutes.html MaryJo