IRC log of ua on 2012-10-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:01:51 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:01:51 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-ua-irc
17:01:53 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:01:53 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:01:55 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:01:56 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:01:56 [trackbot]
Date: 18 October 2012
17:01:57 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM already started
17:02:04 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:02:12 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
17:02:14 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:02:32 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
17:03:19 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:03:42 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Action-743 Sequential Navigation
17:03:50 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Action-762 check wording on 2.2.3
17:04:13 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Action-765 direct command notification
17:04:20 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
17:04:22 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Review Mobile example writing
17:04:33 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Levels Discussion
17:04:45 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
17:04:58 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Action-759 https://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/759 Simon?
17:05:05 [sharper]
zakim, code?
17:05:05 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sharper
17:06:58 [JAllan]
open item 1
17:07:14 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
17:07:32 [JAllan]
kp: went through 1,2 and 3 wrote mobile examples for those that needed it
17:07:41 [JAllan]
scribe: jallan
17:07:42 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:07:55 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
17:07:55 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
17:08:35 [JAllan]
mobile resources: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0012.html http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2012/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20121012/
17:09:08 [JAllan]
js: kwalbin liked UAAG
17:09:47 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:10:15 [Jan]
zakim, code?
17:10:15 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
17:10:25 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:10:54 [Jan]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
17:10:54 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:11:30 [JAllan]
regrets: Mark-partial-in-late
17:11:31 [Zakim]
+??P13
17:11:35 [sharper]
zakim, ??P13 is sharper
17:11:35 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:15:16 [JAllan]
close item 4
17:16:26 [JAllan]
action 743 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0011.html
17:16:26 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find 743. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/users>.
17:17:54 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
17:17:54 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Action-743 Sequential Navigation" taken up [from JAllan]
17:18:03 [kford]
scribe: kford
17:18:56 [kford]
JAN: I had an older action here. These terms around serial access and such were used in different places. I tried to consolidate.
17:19:06 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:19:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-ua-minutes.html kford
17:20:35 [kford]
JAN goes over his proposal.
17:20:53 [kford]
Kim: It seems like when you are using a rotor you can skip the actual thing.
17:21:39 [JAllan]
gl comments: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0018.html
17:22:56 [kford]
GL: It is useful to distinguish the navigation technique from the things that are being navigated.
17:23:26 [kford]
GL: You can do sequential navigation or something.
17:24:14 [kford]
GL: Hierarchical navigation might offer more such as next/previous at same level, or back and down the tree.
17:24:36 [kford]
s/or something/over something/
17:26:22 [kford]
JA: Any objections to Jan's proposal?
17:26:30 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:26:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-ua-minutes.html kford
17:27:08 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to update doc to include Jan's 743 proposal from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0011.html
17:27:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-770 - Update doc to include Jan's 743 proposal from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0011.html [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-10-25].
17:27:53 [kford]
We welc9ome back Simon.
17:28:21 [kford]
s/welc9ome/welcome/
17:28:26 [kford]
zakim, close item 1
17:28:26 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Action-743 Sequential Navigation, closed
17:28:27 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:28:27 [Zakim]
2. Action-762 check wording on 2.2.3 [from JAllan]
17:28:31 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0015.html
17:28:32 [kford]
zakim, take up item 2
17:28:32 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Action-762 check wording on 2.2.3" taken up [from JAllan]
17:29:04 [kford]
JA: I wanted to expand because we had confusion on what we meant by document order.
17:29:16 [kford]
JA goes over his proposal.
17:29:50 [JAllan]
<new> 2.2.3 Default Navigation Order (former 1.9.9): If the author has
17:29:52 [JAllan]
not specified a navigation order, the default *sequential navigation*
17:29:53 [JAllan]
order is the document source code order. (Level A)
17:31:09 [kford]
zakim, close item 2
17:31:09 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Action-762 check wording on 2.2.3, closed
17:31:10 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:31:10 [Zakim]
3. Action-765 direct command notification [from JAllan]
17:31:15 [kford]
zakim, take up item 3
17:31:15 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Action-765 direct command notification" taken up [from JAllan]
17:31:20 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0010.html
17:31:30 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to update doc with changes from Jim's email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0015.html on 2.2.3
17:31:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-771 - Update doc with changes from Jim's email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0015.html on 2.2.3 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-10-25].
17:31:58 [JAllan]
2.3.x Present Direct Commands from Rendered Content: The user can receive a presentation of any *recognized* *direct commands* from the *rendered content*. (Level A)
17:32:07 [kford]
Jan reads his proposal.
17:33:19 [JAllan]
new implementing draft with the mobile examples: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2012/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20121012/
17:34:56 [kford]
Group exploring how they want to handle these proposals.
17:35:12 [kford]
JA: Any objections to 2.3.x?
17:35:17 [kford]
KP: No.
17:35:28 [kford]
GL: Just small editorial.
17:36:21 [JAllan]
2.3.x Present Direct Commands from Rendered Content: The user can receive a presentation of any *recognized* *direct commands* in the *rendered content*. (Level A)
17:36:22 [kford]
Group talking about GL's concern.
17:36:25 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to update the doc with Jan's recommendation from 2.3.x with Greg's edits. See above
17:36:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-772 - Update the doc with Jan's recommendation from 2.3.x with Greg's edits. See above [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-10-25].
17:37:14 [JAllan]
proposed edit: 2.3.2 Present Direct Commands from Rendered Content (Enhanced): The user can receive a presentation of any *recognized* *direct commands* from the *rendered content* with their associated elements (e.g., as an overlay). (Level AA)
17:37:15 [kford]
Now looking at 2.3.2
17:39:17 [JAllan]
2.3.2 Present Direct Commands in Rendered Content (Enhanced): The user can receive a presentation of any *recognized* *direct commands* in the *rendered content* with their associated elements (e.g., as an overlay). (Level AA)
17:39:49 [kford]
No objections to 2.3.2
17:40:04 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to update document with the text above in 2.3.2
17:40:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-773 - Update document with the text above in 2.3.2 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-10-25].
17:40:46 [kford]
Last is glossary.
17:41:19 [JAllan]
new glossary
17:41:21 [kford]
JAN explains his last proposal.
17:41:24 [JAllan]
GLOSSARY:
17:41:26 [JAllan]
command, direct command, direct navigation command, direct activation command, linear navigation command , spatial (directional) command, structural navigation command
17:41:28 [JAllan]
- direct commands apply to a specified item (e.g., button) or action (e.g. save function), regardless of the current focus location
17:41:29 [JAllan]
+ direct navigation commands move focus to the specified item
17:41:31 [JAllan]
+ direct activation commands activate the specified item (and may also move focus to it) or action
17:41:33 [JAllan]
- linear navigation commands (sometimes called logical or sequential navigation commands) move focus forwards and backwards through a list of items
17:41:35 [JAllan]
- structural navigation commands move focus forwards, backwards, up and down a hierarchy of items
17:41:37 [JAllan]
- spatial commands (sometimes called directional commands), require the user to be cognizant of the spatial arrangement of items on the screen:
17:41:38 [JAllan]
+ spatial navigation commands move focus from one item to another based on direction on the screen
17:41:40 [JAllan]
+ spatial manipulation commands resize or reposition an item on the screen
17:41:50 [JAllan]
plus is sub-bullet under the -
17:42:07 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0010.html
17:42:45 [kford]
JA: Any objections to this last?
17:42:52 [kford]
KP: No, looks good.
17:42:59 [kford]
JA: I don't hear any objections.
17:43:08 [kford]
JA: Let's take this then.
17:43:22 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to update glossary with text above (see email)
17:43:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-774 - Update glossary with text above (see email) [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-10-25].
17:43:35 [JAllan]
close action-743
17:43:35 [trackbot]
ACTION-743 Look at cleaning up glossary terms "serial access, sequential navigation" and linear navigation commands closed
17:43:44 [JAllan]
close action-762
17:43:44 [trackbot]
ACTION-762 Review 2.2.3 for language, do we mean tab, source, or document order? closed
17:43:52 [JAllan]
close action-765
17:43:53 [trackbot]
ACTION-765 Propose a new 2.3.X that is the list version of direct commands notification closed
17:44:49 [kford]
zakim, close item 3
17:44:49 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Action-765 direct command notification, closed
17:44:50 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:44:50 [Zakim]
5. Levels Discussion [from JAllan]
17:44:55 [kford]
zakim, take up item 4
17:44:55 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Review Mobile example writing" taken up [from JAllan]
17:45:16 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:45:16 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
17:45:17 [Zakim]
5. Levels Discussion [from JAllan]
17:45:17 [Zakim]
6. Action-759 https://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/759 Simon? [from JAllan]
17:45:30 [kford]
zakim, take uip item 6
17:45:30 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take uip item 6', kford
17:45:36 [kford]
zakim, take up item 6\
17:45:36 [Zakim]
'6\\' does not match any agenda item, kford
17:45:43 [kford]
zakim, take up item 6
17:45:43 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Action-759 https://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/759 Simon?" taken up [from JAllan]
17:47:39 [sharper]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Static_Documents_on_the_Web:_Document_Accessibility
17:47:56 [kford]
SH: I've added this request to our wiki of existing requests.
17:48:08 [JAllan]
close action-759
17:48:08 [trackbot]
ACTION-759 Forward a request to RDWG that they suggest that students looking for projects build an extention that allows people to put navigation marks in a page - 1.8.12 closed
17:48:22 [kford]
zakim, close item 6
17:48:22 [Zakim]
agendum 6, Action-759 https://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/759 Simon?, closed
17:48:24 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:48:24 [Zakim]
5. Levels Discussion [from JAllan]
17:48:37 [kford]
zakim, take up item 5
17:48:37 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Levels Discussion" taken up [from JAllan]
17:48:51 [kford]
zakim, take up item 4
17:48:51 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Review Mobile example writing" taken up [from JAllan]
17:49:31 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2012/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20121012/
17:50:12 [kford]
JA: Jeanne has added a group of mobile examples from an activity that was done last Friday.
17:50:50 [kford]
KP: 1.2.1 intent wasn't clear to the group creating these examples.
17:52:05 [kford]
KP: The second paragraph seemed confusing, like it didn't belong.
17:52:37 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to edit 1.2.1 based on suggestion from minutes of http://www.w3.org/2012/10/12-ua-minutes
17:52:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-775 - Edit 1.2.1 based on suggestion from minutes of http://www.w3.org/2012/10/12-ua-minutes [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-10-25].
17:54:04 [Jan]
1.1.2 pixelated?
17:55:54 [kford]
Group is reviewing mobile examples.
17:56:08 [Greg]
In the Brin example of 1.1.1, might explain why the mobile example is different, as in: On her mobile phone the developers did not want to take up space with a button, so Brin touches a video to display the controls including the "display caption" control.
17:56:40 [JAllan]
the mobile screen isn't big enough for effective zooming of images, he prefers the text verion of the images
17:56:42 [Greg]
Otherwise it's not clear why the mobile example is different than the primary (presumably desktop, although it does not say that) example.
17:57:26 [Greg]
s/verion/version/
17:58:26 [JAllan]
1.1.3 ben example seems more about the control than alternative content
17:59:24 [Jan]
In the Ben 1.1.3 example, the floating control on the mobile phone...is it trying to say the whole mobile UI can be treated as a UA? If not better to clarify that the floating control is for a media player app.
17:59:25 [JAllan]
perhaps better in 1.1.5 size of media alternatives...changing size of captions?
18:03:13 [Zakim]
-kford
18:03:16 [sharper]
1.7.3 'Mattias has ADHD' should we elaborate ADHD to Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder
18:03:33 [JAllan]
1.4.1 ben..."he chooses large text (remove the 'to' before large)
18:03:43 [Jan]
In 1.4.1..."chooses to USE large"...also I think we should just say the mobile browser has this setting, nnot the mobile OS as a whole
18:04:09 [JAllan]
+1 to simon above
18:05:28 [Jan]
1.7.4 Tanya browses to a new website on her mobile BROWSER.
18:06:01 [Greg]
Re George in 1.3.1, again perhaps clarify why this is unique to mobile, as in "The user interface was designed for touchscreen so by default it doesn't show a focus indicator, but George turns on the focus indicator so that he knows..."
18:06:29 [JAllan]
+1 to greg
18:07:34 [Greg]
Re Ben in 1.4.1, it's not clear to me how this example differs from those already present, one of which is explicitly about mobile phones and one of which is abut choosing large font size.
18:07:49 [JAllan]
1.8.2 lee...new sentence. A visible scrollbar appears indicating that content has been moved on to the screen, but there is more available off screen
18:07:59 [Jan]
in general, I see a lot of "mobile device" and "mobile phone"....should be "mobile browser" for clarity
18:09:09 [sharper]
I agree with Jan's mobile browser comment
18:09:56 [Greg]
Re Tanya in 1.7.4, there's nothing linking this to accessibility.
18:10:34 [JAllan]
1.8.5 this is already a feature of maps (zooming in and out). this doesn't say enough about the accessibility.
18:10:40 [Jan]
1.8.10 Ray is blind. USING His mobile device HE CAN OPEN location links and calendar dates found on web pages in native apps ON HIS device.
18:13:03 [Jan]
jeanne....then maybe instead of this kind of structure "$$ When Frank is using his mobile phone to read a web page,"...say it like this: "$$ When Frank is reading a web page on his mobile"
18:13:05 [Greg]
Re Lee in 1.8.2, it could be rewritten to clarify that this is true on all platforms, but especially important on her mobile device because the small screen requires scrolling more frequently. E.g. "Lee typically views web content at a high level of zoom, frequently positioning elements outside the viewport. When moving between focusable elements, the viewport automatically scrolls to the...
18:13:06 [Greg]
...element currently in focus. This is particularly important on her mobile device, as the smaller screen makes scrolling more frequent."
18:13:07 [JAllan]
1.8.13 bookmarks (internal markers set by the user).
18:14:06 [JAllan]
+1 to greg...adding a bit of explanation to educate the developer
18:14:21 [Greg]
Re Terry in 1.8.4, might tie it to the browser by adding "Her web browser respects that setting."
18:15:26 [JAllan]
done with GL1
18:17:09 [Greg]
Agree with Jim about 1.8.5. Perhaps mention that having a thumbnail map that shows which portion of the larger view is visible in the zoomed-in portion is very helpful to her, but I'm not clear that's a good real-world example, as having two maps is itself confusing to many people.
18:17:11 [sharper]
http://www.hyper-anchor.org/en/
18:18:45 [JAllan]
above related to 1.8.13
18:19:10 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
18:19:22 [JAllan]
add as a resource to 1.8.13 http://www.hyper-anchor.org/en/
18:19:46 [JAllan]
kp: can we bump to AA instead of AAA, as we have a cross browser implementation.
18:19:47 [Jan]
In 2.1.4 replace the new example (which I don't think makes sense) with: $$ Ari uses a scanning onscreen keyboard to navigate sequentially past operable elements until he reaches the element he intends to activate.
18:19:49 [Greg]
Re 1.8.6 change "zoom feature increases the size of both text and images" to say "zoom feature changes the size of both text and images", as she's using it to zoom out as well as in.
18:19:51 [JAllan]
js: +1
18:19:55 [JAllan]
+1
18:20:07 [sharper]
+1
18:20:44 [JAllan]
+1 related to kp moving 1.8.13 to AA
18:22:25 [JAllan]
kp: proposes moving 1.8.13 to AA because of http://www.hyper-anchor.org/en/ and it works in ie, ff, and chrome, (mac?)
18:22:47 [JAllan]
jim, js, kp, sh, all agree
18:23:38 [Jan]
I note this "The bookmark added by HYPER-ANCHOR can be used in a web browser without HYPER-ANCHOR installed, however the page does not scroll automatically and the highlight styles are not applied."
18:24:03 [Greg]
Re Frank in 1.8.12, not clear how this differs from the usual scenario, maybe to "always display zoomed content to fit in one column" add "that fits in the width of his screen, so that he does not need to scroll horizontally."
18:25:52 [JAllan]
sh: hyper-anchor - this is just a url that jumps to the dom
18:27:06 [JAllan]
js: please send any other comments about mobile example to the list.
18:28:12 [JAllan]
kp: also, if you have any ideas for GL 4 & 5 send those too
18:29:13 [JAllan]
js: need suggestions for folks who could address mobile examples in gl 4 & 5
18:30:31 [Zakim]
-sharper
18:30:40 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:30:41 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
18:30:41 [Zakim]
-Jan
18:30:42 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
18:30:44 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:30:44 [Zakim]
Attendees were Greg_Lowney, Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Kim_Patch, kford, Jan, sharper
18:31:59 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:31:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:32:08 [JAllan]
rrsagent, set logs public
18:36:19 [JAllan]
chair: jimallan, kellyford
18:36:26 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:36:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:36:46 [JAllan]
zakim, please part
18:36:46 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:36:57 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:36:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:37:07 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
18:37:07 [RRSAgent]
I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-ua-actions.rdf :
18:37:07 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update doc to include Jan's 743 proposal from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0011.html [1]
18:37:07 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-ua-irc#T17-27-08
18:37:07 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update doc with changes from Jim's email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0015.html on 2.2.3 [2]
18:37:07 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-ua-irc#T17-31-30
18:37:07 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update the doc with Jan's recommendation from 2.3.x with Greg's edits. See above [3]
18:37:07 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-ua-irc#T17-36-25
18:37:07 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update document with the text above in 2.3.2 [4]
18:37:07 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-ua-irc#T17-40-04
18:37:07 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update glossary with text above (see email) [5]
18:37:07 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-ua-irc#T17-43-22
18:37:07 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to edit 1.2.1 based on suggestion from minutes of http://www.w3.org/2012/10/12-ua-minutes [6]
18:37:07 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-ua-irc#T17-52-37