14:48:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:48:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-prov-irc
14:48:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:48:15 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
14:48:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
14:48:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:48:18 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:48:18 <trackbot> Date: 18 October 2012
14:49:11 <ivan> zakim, this will be prov
14:49:11 <Zakim> ok, ivan; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
14:49:43 <Luc> Luc has joined #prov
14:53:17 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov
14:53:50 <pgroth> trackbot, start telcon
14:53:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:53:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
14:53:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:53:55 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:53:55 <trackbot> Date: 18 October 2012
14:54:01 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV
14:54:01 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:54:12 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.10.18
14:54:19 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
14:54:26 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public
14:54:45 <pgroth> Regrets: James Cheney
14:55:16 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:55:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:55:32 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:55:32 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
14:56:05 <ivan> zakim, code?
14:56:05 <Zakim> the conference code is 7768 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
14:56:34 <Zakim> + +1.617.324.aaaa
14:56:40 <ivan> zakim, aaaa is Ivan
14:56:40 <Zakim> +Ivan; got it
14:58:21 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov
14:58:34 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aabb
14:58:53 <Luc> zakim, aabb is me
14:58:53 <Zakim> +Luc; got it
14:59:40 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:59:45 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov
14:59:45 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov
14:59:57 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes
15:00:32 <pgroth> scribe?
15:00:43 <hook> hook has joined #prov
15:00:52 <CraigTrim> CraigTrim has joined #PROV
15:01:19 <Zakim> + +1.661.382.aacc
15:01:23 <pgroth> Scribe: Curt
15:01:34 <CraigTrim> zakim, +aacc is me
15:01:34 <Zakim> sorry, CraigTrim, I do not recognize a party named '+aacc'
15:01:41 <CraigTrim> Zakim, aacc is me
15:01:41 <Zakim> +CraigTrim; got it
15:01:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:02:31 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
15:02:38 <Zakim> +Luc.a
15:02:45 <pgroth> Topic: Admin
15:02:50 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-10-11
15:02:51 <Zakim> +??P25
15:02:54 <satya> satya has joined #prov
15:02:57 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aadd
15:02:58 <jun> jun has joined #prov
15:02:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]
15:03:01 <pgroth> Proposed Minutes of the October 11, 2012 Telecon
15:03:06 <Curt> +1
15:03:09 <satya> +1
15:03:09 <smiles> +1
15:03:10 <ivan> +1
15:03:13 <khalidBelhajjame> khalidBelhajjame has joined #prov
15:03:14 <hook> +1
15:03:14 <jun> zakim, [IPcaller.aa] is me
15:03:15 <Zakim> +jun; got it
15:03:17 <zednik> +1
15:03:22 <Paolo> 0 (not there)
15:03:23 <Dong> Dong has joined #prov
15:03:33 <pgroth> accepted: Minutes of the October 11, 2012 Telecon
15:03:43 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo
15:03:56 <Curt> pgroth: review open action items
15:04:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]
15:04:39 <Curt> pgroth: some action holders not present -- paul will follow up with email
15:04:47 <khalidBelhajjame> zakim, [IPcaller.aa] is me
15:04:47 <Zakim> +khalidBelhajjame; got it
15:04:56 <Curt> pgroth: scribes -- need them, please volunteer!
15:05:03 <pgroth> Topic: Reminder about the timetable
15:05:37 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/TimetableToRec
15:05:51 <Curt> pgroth: reviewing timetable ^
15:06:09 <Curt> pgroth: need to get issues closed to go to CR
15:06:41 <Curt> pgroth: luc sending out a lot of responses, need group to try to stay on top of them
15:07:12 <pgroth> q?
15:07:32 <pgroth> Topic: Exit Criteria
15:07:38 <TomDN> TomDN has joined #prov
15:07:43 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvCRExitCriteria
15:07:47 <Zakim> + +329331aaee
15:07:55 <TomDN> Zakim, +329 is me
15:07:55 <Zakim> +TomDN; got it
15:08:01 <Curt> pgroth: incorporated some feedback, put on list for review
15:08:05 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me
15:08:05 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted
15:08:30 <Curt> pgroth: added explicit exit criteria for PROV-DM per james, inherits from PROV-O and N
15:08:37 <Curt> pgroth: some wording updated
15:08:50 <smiles> Apart from the "independent" comment Luc made by email, they looked good to me
15:08:56 <pgroth> q?
15:10:07 <Curt> Luc: PROV-O - what is independent of what?  it doesn't require independence between producer/consumer
15:10:56 <Curt> Luc: suggested - independence between producer and consumer
15:11:38 <Curt> Luc: similar to client/server, producer and consumer must be independent to demonstrate interoperability
15:11:50 <pgroth> An interoperability pair consists of an implementation generating a
15:11:50 <pgroth> feature and an independent implementation consuming the feature. For
15:11:50 <pgroth> each feature, at least two interoperability pairs will have been
15:11:51 <pgroth> demonstrated to exist
15:11:58 <Luc> "An interoperability pair consists of an implementation generating a feature and an independent implementation consuming the feature. For each feature, at least two interoperability pairs will have been demonstrated to exist."
15:12:32 <pgroth> q?
15:12:33 <Curt> pgroth: This is stronger -- SKOS wasn't quite this strong.  If group wants it, ok..
15:12:41 <smiles> q+
15:13:15 <khalidBelhajjame> Yes, it looks stronge, but I think what Luc is suggesting is what one would exepect when talking about interoperability
15:13:20 <Curt> smiles: makes sense that they should be independent
15:13:47 <Paolo> it would be more convincing
15:13:51 <Curt> pgroth: worried about making it stronger than it really needs to be
15:14:01 <Luc> q+
15:14:13 <pgroth> ack smiles
15:14:16 <pgroth> ack Luc
15:14:39 <Paolo> ... two pairs of independent producers and consumers...
15:14:44 <Curt> Luc: are there concerns we wouldn't meet the stronger criteria?
15:14:55 <Curt> pgroth: we could for PROV-O, not sure about PROV-N
15:15:29 <Curt> Luc: an implementation includes a dataset -- we do have some PROV-N datasets, this should be workable
15:15:39 <Curt> Luc: as long as we have two consumers of that
15:15:49 <Curt> pgroth: will update with the proposed new language
15:15:58 <pgroth> q?
15:16:32 <Curt> ivan: What Luc proposes is good, but Paul has the question -- "Can we make it?"
15:16:50 <Zakim> +[OpenLink]
15:16:56 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me
15:16:56 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:16:58 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:16:58 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:17:09 <Curt> Luc: If we have two implmentations from the same organization, they may not be considered independent
15:17:41 <Curt> pgroth: we were trying to keep the threshold attainable
15:17:58 <Curt> pgroth: but your language is better, just want to make sure we can meet it
15:18:25 <ivan> q+
15:18:30 <Curt> pgroth: trying to figure out the right language, and consider the ramifications of that language on the exit criteria
15:19:02 <Curt> ivan: the language may be a little vague, but should be ok with it the way it is
15:19:15 <Curt> Luc: want to make sure the language reflects our intent
15:19:33 <Curt> ivan: It's ok with me, it seems satisfactory
15:19:50 <Curt> ivan: (in my view, not official w3c position)
15:20:10 <Curt> pgroth: ok, going back to original language
15:20:19 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvCRExitCriteria
15:21:10 <Curt> pgroth: we could have prov-n documents and two different implementations that could read/process them
15:21:16 <pgroth> q?
15:21:20 <pgroth> ack ivan
15:21:22 <ivan> ack ivan
15:21:27 <Curt> Luc: will we have two independent consumers of prov-n?
15:22:25 <Paolo> sorry, what does it mean to "consume prov-n"? would this be an independently generated parser?
15:22:30 <Curt> Luc: with my version, A producing and B consuming is one pair, B producing and A consuming is another pair, as long as A and B are independent
15:22:48 <Curt> pgroth: thought consumption would be easier than production
15:23:09 <Curt> pgroth: still some concerns -- let's postpone final vote on this
15:23:20 <hook> q+
15:23:36 <Paolo> q+
15:23:46 <pgroth> ack hook
15:24:06 <Curt> hook: if all features don't have independent pairs.
15:24:29 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
15:24:31 <Curt> pgroth: each feature must be coverened, but given implementations don't have to cover every feature
15:24:54 <Curt> ivan: it is considered to be an implemmentation for the features it covers
15:24:56 <pgroth> ack Paolo
15:25:09 <Zakim> +??P7
15:25:11 <ivan> s/implememmentation/implementation/
15:25:18 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P7 is me
15:25:18 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
15:25:26 <Curt> Paolo: what is a consumer?  How about just a parser?
15:25:28 <ivan> s/implemmentation/implementation/
15:25:46 <Curt> pgroth: yes, a parser would be
15:25:58 <pgroth> q?
15:26:26 <smiles> yes
15:26:31 <Curt> pgroth: interoperability pairs could be easier than the language we have now
15:26:33 <khalidBelhajjame> I think it makes more sense too
15:26:55 <Curt> pgroth: I will rephrase the language and send it around for review by Tuesday next week
15:27:07 <Curt> Luc: we can have an online vote
15:27:24 <pgroth> action: Paul to revise cr exit criteria, online vote next week
15:27:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-120 - Revise cr exit criteria, online vote next week [on Paul Groth - due 2012-10-25].
15:27:49 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-DM issues
15:28:25 <hook> hook has joined #prov
15:28:50 <pgroth> proposed: accept ISSUE-529 ISSUE-524 ISSUE-519 ISSUE-521 ISSUE-450 ISSUE-482 ISSUE-499 ISSUE-518 as working group responses
15:28:58 <Dong> +1
15:28:59 <ivan> +1
15:29:00 <TomDN> +1
15:29:03 <khalidBelhajjame> +1
15:29:06 <dgarijo> +1
15:29:07 <zednik> +1
15:29:08 <satya> +1
15:29:38 <Curt> Luc: 529 and 499 still have some comments
15:30:08 <smiles> +1
15:30:11 <pgroth> accepted:  accept ISSUE-524 ISSUE-519 ISSUE-521 ISSUE-450 ISSUE-482 ISSUE-518 as working group responses
15:31:00 <Curt> Luc: there is a question from robert, a question about entity, and several comments from ivan
15:31:08 <Curt> Luc: and the one on mention, still to address
15:31:19 <Curt> Luc: will tackle most of them on monday
15:31:37 <pgroth> q?
15:31:37 <Curt> pgroth: requested acknowledgement from Robert on responses
15:31:43 <Curt> pgroth: he is traveling
15:31:52 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-N issues
15:32:50 <pgroth> proposed: ISSUE-541 ISSUE-542 ISSUE-543 ISSUE-545 ISSUE-537 ISSUE-535 ISSUE-534 ISSUE-536 ISSUE-538 ISSUE-533 ISSUE-546 ISSUE-540 ISSUE-539 ISSUE-544 as working group responses
15:32:55 <TomDN> +1
15:32:59 <ivan> +1
15:33:05 <Dong> +1
15:33:06 <dgarijo> +1
15:33:18 <zednik> +1
15:33:22 <stephenc> stephenc has joined #prov
15:33:29 <smiles> +1
15:33:30 <khalidBelhajjame> +1
15:33:49 <pgroth> accepted: ISSUE-541 ISSUE-542 ISSUE-543 ISSUE-545 ISSUE-537 ISSUE-535 ISSUE-534 ISSUE-536 ISSUE-538 ISSUE-533 ISSUE-546 ISSUE-540 ISSUE-539 ISSUE-544 as working group responses
15:34:09 <Curt> pgroth: anything more to address with PROV-N?
15:34:16 <Curt> Luc: should all be addressed now
15:34:43 <Curt> Luc: need to align bundle language with constraints
15:34:50 <Zakim> +??P18
15:34:53 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-O issues
15:35:14 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:35:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Ivan, Luc, [IPcaller], Curt_Tilmes, CraigTrim, [IPcaller.a], Luc.a, ??P25, jun, +1.818.731.aadd, Satya_Sahoo, khalidBelhajjame, TomDN (muted), MacTed
15:35:18 <Zakim> ... (muted), dgarijo, ??P18
15:35:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see stephenc, hook, dgarijo, TomDN, Dong, khalidBelhajjame, jun, satya, zednik, CraigTrim, Curt, smiles, Paolo, pgroth, Luc, Zakim, RRSAgent, MacTed, ivan, stain, trackbot
15:35:23 <stephenc> I just joined
15:35:34 <ivan> zakim, ??P18 is stephenc
15:35:35 <Zakim> +stephenc; got it
15:35:54 <ivan> issue-552?
15:35:54 <trackbot> ISSUE-552 -- Check subclass definitions in prov-o -- raised
15:35:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/552
15:35:58 <Curt> pgroth: Tim not present, need to address issues
15:36:01 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-comments/2012Sep/0000.html
15:36:29 <Curt> pgroth: can someone address 552?
15:36:39 <Curt> pgroth: is this a PROV-DM or PROV-O problem?
15:36:45 <MacTed> both...
15:37:00 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:37:00 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:37:02 <Luc> q+
15:37:18 <Curt> ivan: Can it be turned into subclasses?
15:37:25 <pgroth> ack Luc
15:37:26 <Curt> ivan: does PROV-DM support that?
15:37:47 <satya> I believe that is DM
15:37:54 <Curt> Luc: Is this need from PROV-DM or PROV-O?
15:38:18 <Curt> pgroth: DM definitions repeated into PROV-O, there aren't new definitions
15:38:22 <hook> hook has joined #prov
15:38:28 <dgarijo> I can find it in the overview: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/tip/ontology/Overview.html#Quotation
15:38:37 <Curt> Luc: suggestion is to make quotation a type of derivation
15:38:45 <Curt> MacTed: That still equates to a subclass
15:39:09 <Curt> Luc: how is quotation expressed in PROV-O?
15:39:14 <MacTed> `The definition of Quotation includes "Quotation is a particular case of derivation.". However Quotation is not a subclass of Derivation, which is what the english would imply. A better wording, assuming I understand the current english would be: "Quotation is a kind of derivation".`
15:39:26 <Curt> pgroth: there is a property and a class prov:quotation
15:39:47 <Curt> MacTed: concern is that the english says it is a subclass, but isn't explicit where it should be
15:40:10 <Curt> MacTed: it isn't consistent whether quotation is a subclass of derivation
15:40:40 <satya> Atleast that is not in the OWL file of PROV-O
15:40:54 <Curt> MacTed: it sounds like the missing language is in PROV-O
15:41:55 <Curt> pgroth: can one of the PROV-O editors address this?
15:42:03 <Curt> Luc: should action to Tim ask if this is a bug
15:42:39 <pgroth> action: Tim check whether it is a bug  or feature the lack of subclassing for Quotation and Derivation see ISSUE 552
15:42:39 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find Tim. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/users>.
15:43:04 <Curt> MacTed: This is an example -- there may be other places where similar subclassing is missing
15:43:30 <MacTed> "lack of subclassing for, e.g., Quotation and Derivation"
15:44:20 <Curt> pgroth: I'll revise the action and email Tim
15:44:40 <ivan> issue-568?
15:44:40 <trackbot> ISSUE-568 -- domain of prov:hadRole -- raised
15:44:40 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/568
15:45:15 <Zakim> -CraigTrim
15:46:22 <Curt> Luc: domain includes influence, which would allow expression of some relationships that DM does not allow
15:46:53 <dgarijo> I'll check it out
15:47:30 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/446
15:47:31 <Curt> pgroth: dgarijo has open issue
15:47:52 <Curt> dgarijo: I will check it out
15:48:04 <pgroth> q?
15:48:24 <Curt> Luc: what are the implications of changing the domain of hadrole?
15:48:41 <pgroth> q
15:48:42 <pgroth> q?
15:48:43 <Curt> Luc: for PROV-O last call, and on other documents
15:48:55 <Curt> ivan: This is a bug, not a change in fundamental design, correct?
15:49:11 <Curt> pgroth: need to confirm bug, but yes, not changing the design
15:49:25 <Luc_> Luc_ has joined #prov
15:49:27 <Curt> ivan: If it is a real bug, there isn't a problem with the last call
15:49:46 <Curt> ivan: last call asks if there questions about design, not bugs
15:49:56 <Curt> ivan: If there are design changes, then we have to look at it again
15:50:04 <Curt> ivan: not sure how this will affect other documents
15:50:46 <Curt> Luc: If we have a second last call for PROV-O, do we have to do that with the others too?
15:50:48 <Curt> ivan: no
15:50:55 <Curt> Luc: would that delay CR?
15:51:04 <Curt> ivan: we want them to go together, so yes
15:51:17 <Curt> ivan: it would incur a minimum delay of three weeks
15:51:19 <pgroth> q?
15:51:22 <pgroth> Topic: Reminder on Notes
15:51:24 <Curt> ivan: but we aren't there yet..
15:51:53 <Curt> pgroth: dgarijo sent email update on PROV-DC
15:52:14 <Curt> dgarijo: we still need to write formal responses for issues
15:52:36 <Curt> pgroth: PROV-AQ, graham will work on that towards Novembers
15:52:43 <Curt> ^Novembers^November
15:52:59 <pgroth> q?
15:53:10 <Curt> pgroth: other priorities, will delay PROV-AQ until November, thoughts about that?
15:53:28 <pgroth> q?
15:53:37 <Curt> pgroth: Needs a push to clean up final note, more important to work on implementations for now
15:53:49 <Curt> ivan: the note, or a draft at that point?
15:54:00 <Curt> pgroth: publish draft then, then the note later
15:54:30 <Curt> ivan: suggest publishing the note with the rest of the rec, publishing together would be better
15:55:16 <Curt> pgroth: PROV-Dictionary, make that into a note
15:55:29 <Curt> pgroth: stain working on that
15:55:34 <Paolo> q+
15:55:46 <pgroth> ack Paolo
15:56:08 <Curt> Paolo: we talked about this, we made a plan, haven't heard updates since
15:56:34 <Curt> Paolo: I will remind stain
15:56:46 <Dong> Sorry, I need to go
15:57:15 <Luc_> q+
15:57:16 <pgroth> q?
15:57:16 <Curt> pgroth: I'll discuss with Luc how to address this
15:57:21 <Curt> (I have to go)
15:57:32 <Paolo> have to run...
15:57:36 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
15:57:41 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes
15:57:57 <Zakim> -Luc.a
15:57:59 <khalidBelhajjame> bye
15:58:03 <Zakim> -dgarijo
15:58:04 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:58:04 <TomDN> bye
15:58:06 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo
15:58:07 <Zakim> -khalidBelhajjame
15:58:16 <Zakim> -stephenc
15:58:17 <Zakim> -??P25
15:58:23 <Zakim> -MacTed
15:58:39 <Zakim> -TomDN
15:58:45 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public
15:58:47 <Zakim> -jun
15:58:49 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:58:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-prov-minutes.html pgroth
15:58:54 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon
15:58:54 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:58:54 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, +1.617.324.aaaa, Ivan, +44.238.059.aabb, Luc, [IPcaller], Curt_Tilmes, +1.661.382.aacc, CraigTrim, +1.818.731.aadd, jun,
15:58:57 <Zakim> ... Satya_Sahoo, khalidBelhajjame, +329331aaee, TomDN, MacTed, dgarijo, stephenc
15:59:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:59:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-prov-minutes.html trackbot
15:59:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:59:03 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-prov-actions.rdf :
15:59:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Paul to revise cr exit criteria, online vote next week [1]
15:59:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-prov-irc#T15-27-24
15:59:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Tim check whether it is a bug  or feature the lack of subclassing for Quotation and Derivation see ISSUE 552 [2]
15:59:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-prov-irc#T15-42-39