14:54:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:54:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-html-a11y-irc
14:54:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:54:27 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:54:29 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
14:54:29 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 54 minutes ago
14:54:30 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:54:30 <trackbot> Date: 18 October 2012
14:54:43 <MichaelC> regrets: Léonie_Watson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
14:55:20 <JF> JF has joined #html-a11y
14:55:24 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Oct/0108.html
14:57:01 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
14:57:08 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
15:00:56 <Zakim> +hober
15:01:57 <Zakim> +??P20
15:02:06 <janina> janina has joined #html-a11y
15:02:26 <janina> trackbot, start meeting
15:02:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:02:30 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
15:02:30 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 62 minutes ago
15:02:31 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:02:31 <trackbot> Date: 18 October 2012
15:02:33 <JF> zakim. ??p20 is Janina
15:02:52 <JF> zakim, ??p20 is Janina
15:02:52 <Zakim> I already had ??P20 as ??P20, JF
15:03:11 <JF> zakim, who's here?
15:03:11 <Zakim> I notice WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has restarted
15:03:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, hober, ??P20
15:03:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see janina, JF, Zakim, RRSAgent, MichaelC, MikeSmith, hober, trackbot
15:03:14 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:03:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, hober, ??P20
15:03:28 <janina> zakim, ??P20 is Janina
15:03:28 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
15:04:07 <Zakim> +Judy
15:04:42 <Zakim> +??P14
15:04:42 <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
15:04:42 <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:04:42 <janina> agenda+ Sec. 7.1 Hidden http://htmlwg.org/heartbeat/WD-html5-20121011/editing.html#the-hidden-attribute
15:04:42 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y
15:04:45 <janina> agenda+ Poster Alt Redux http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Oct/0062.html
15:04:48 <janina> agenda+ Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; Text
15:04:51 <janina> agenda+ The Task Force at the TPAC
15:04:53 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
15:04:56 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
15:04:58 <janina> agenda+ Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:05:01 <janina> agenda+ be done
15:05:03 <Zakim> +Cooper
15:06:42 <hober> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:06:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, hober, Janina, Judy, Michael_Cooper, Cooper
15:06:43 <janina>  regrets: rich
15:06:46 <janina> regrets: leonie
15:07:14 <janina> agenda?
15:10:52 <Judy> scribe: Judy
15:10:55 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
15:10:55 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Sec. 7.1 Hidden http://htmlwg.org/heartbeat/WD-html5-20121011/editing.html#the-hidden-attribute" taken up [from janina]
15:11:10 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
15:11:27 <Judy> JS: Where should we track the latest version of the lang?
15:11:37 <Judy> TOC: Latest editor's draft.
15:12:31 <Judy> CS: I started a thread last week, set of events and methods that shouldn't work, couple of comments, happy to discuss live.
15:12:55 <Judy> JS: JF and TOC here, RS is not. Possibly discuss.
15:13:39 <Judy> JF: Thx Cynthia. Looks good. Where is that effort going? Note it in the text, that those events should be disabled? Need to draw attention to that in the spec.
15:14:00 <Judy> ...Last saw it Tues this week; Ted will you be rolling it into the Ed's draft?
15:14:15 <Judy> Ted: Think I saw qu's from Maciej that would be worth addressing first.
15:14:38 <Judy> JF: Posed a qu to Maciej, don't know if was responded to.
15:14:50 <Judy> CS: You could get element by ID and click on it and that should fail.
15:15:06 <Zakim> -Cooper
15:15:19 <Judy> ...but so should that be called a method. Focus, blur, shouldn't those just fail? Make sense?
15:15:26 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
15:15:50 <MichaelC> jf: can´t have anything requiring focus in hidden content
15:16:04 <MichaelC> think language was that scripted form controls would still be active
15:16:25 <MichaelC> it should be explicit that such things would be disabled
15:16:36 <MichaelC> so you don´t get focus in there somehow
15:16:58 <MichaelC> cs: yes, also for @@
15:17:17 <MichaelC> sounds like a similar problem we had with shadow DOM in canvas
15:17:44 <MichaelC> jf: that´s like an image map with something you don´t see behind the image
15:18:17 <MichaelC> in canvas, things in sub-DOM get displayed in the visible portion
15:18:44 <MichaelC> cs: maybe we could think of longer descriptions as being more like the imagemap situation
15:19:09 <MichaelC> jf: the proposal to add aria-describedat would add this magic property
15:19:21 <MichaelC> aria-describedby should not have that ability
15:19:50 <MichaelC> I don´t oppose the former, I oppose retrofitting aria-describedby
15:20:07 <JF> +! to that
15:20:10 <MichaelC> cs: I always thought of describedby as like opening a new window
15:20:17 <JF> s/+!/+1/
15:20:29 <MichaelC> expected attempts to focus would fail
15:20:54 <janina> q?
15:21:03 <MichaelC> I´m ok with @@ but some have other views
15:21:14 <MichaelC> jf: I just don´t want anything not visible to be focusable
15:21:52 <MichaelC> haven´t heard of a situation where we´d want that
15:22:11 <MichaelC> cs: could imagine a canvas-like situation with a subtree you should be able to work around
15:22:18 <MichaelC> but not sure if that use case would come about
15:22:42 <MichaelC> js: note WebApps just published Shadow DOM spec
15:23:04 <MichaelC> cs: maybe that´s where we tackle this issue
15:23:35 <MichaelC> js: PFWG already expects to have comments
15:23:43 <MichaelC> and thinks this group should review
15:23:59 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-shadow-dom-20121016/ Shadow DOM
15:24:12 <MichaelC> cs: @@
15:24:36 <MichaelC> jf: so now in bug activity, discussion of CSS
15:24:43 <MichaelC> currently default CSS is display:none
15:24:53 <MichaelC> screen readers respect that, and don´t do anything
15:25:19 <MichaelC> now we´re saying there are situations where that native CSS handling would be changed
15:25:27 <MichaelC> cs: not sure that´s true for all UAs
15:25:32 <janina> q?
15:26:12 <MichaelC> jf: have seen a lot of dumb implementations in sites, leading to things that don´t work in practice
15:26:42 <MichaelC> to me, if @hidden = display:none and you want AT to access, you have to change that default CSS
15:27:02 <MichaelC> cs: if you want more than something flattened into AAPI string, yes
15:27:12 <MichaelC> if we disallow method, allows structured text but not interactivity
15:27:33 <MichaelC> jf: but then you have something that´s not display:none
15:27:42 <MichaelC> cs: could have display:none stuff in a11y tree also
15:27:56 <MichaelC> jf: my concern is these cases aren´t specified
15:28:05 <MichaelC> leading to unanswered questions in the spec
15:28:14 <MichaelC> and you get a variety of incompatible implementations, or no ues
15:28:41 <MichaelC> cs: we previously punted to ¨until user agents¨ situation
15:28:57 <MichaelC> for now, maybe disallow
15:29:03 <MichaelC> and revisit later when we have v.next
15:29:12 <MichaelC> when we have AAPI support
15:29:46 <MichaelC> jf: great virtual beer session, but we need to resolve where this is going
15:30:05 <MichaelC> js: at some point we´ll have to have two implementations
15:30:11 <MichaelC> cs: won´t get that any time soon
15:30:23 <MichaelC> Windows will have to be next version of OS, a ways off
15:30:41 <MichaelC> this is a pretty big feature
15:31:24 <MichaelC> not sure what other platforms will do
15:31:40 <MichaelC> js: @@
15:31:58 <MichaelC> cs: I will submit bug and reply to Maciej´s mail
15:32:07 <MichaelC> the CR argument does mean v.next
15:32:25 <MichaelC> js: let´s look across the board, maybe we´ll all prefer
15:32:30 <MichaelC> cs: but not for 5.0 timeframe
15:32:54 <MichaelC> js: so let´s consider actively for 5.1 if we want it so much
15:33:10 <MichaelC> we´re not trying to throw up obstreperious roadblocks, we have real concerns
15:33:31 <MichaelC> jf: understand there are real use cases
15:33:39 <MichaelC> just don´t to leave things undefined
15:34:12 <MichaelC> cs: so with this but we are making non-support in HTML 5 an explicit decision
15:34:22 <MichaelC> makes it an area of research for people working on v.next
15:34:33 <MichaelC> s/but/bug/
15:35:02 <MichaelC> changes like this depend on both OS and AT changes, long time to get both to happen
15:35:06 <MichaelC> js: @@
15:35:21 <MichaelC> cs: even DOM-based AT that don´t depend on AAPI have long dev cycle
15:35:32 <MichaelC> jb: clarification
15:35:44 <MichaelC> cs: we wouldn´t be able to exit CR with this feature by 2014
15:35:54 <MichaelC> so instead of putting in an at risk feature, should move it to v.next
15:36:00 <MichaelC> jb: this is about describedat?
15:36:08 <MichaelC> cs: about interactive content in hidden sub-dom
15:37:06 <MichaelC> toc: the open bug about @@ will drive @@
15:37:35 <MichaelC> don´t expect implementation of @hidden = display:none to change
15:37:39 <MichaelC> 4 browsers shipped with that
15:37:57 <MichaelC> so we need to figure out what that means and document it
15:38:26 <MichaelC> need to figure out distinction between exposing to viewport and exposing to an API
15:38:46 <MichaelC> the more detail and bugs we get, the easier it is to move forward
15:39:06 <MichaelC> js: so we have next steps, can bring to agenda as needed
15:39:09 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
15:39:09 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Poster Alt Redux http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Oct/0062.html" taken up [from janina]
15:39:50 <MichaelC> jf: my questions no longer concerns, have withdrawn formal objection
15:39:53 <MichaelC> zakim, close this item
15:39:53 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
15:39:54 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:39:54 <Zakim> 3. Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; Text [from janina]
15:39:55 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
15:39:56 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; Text" taken up [from janina]
15:40:40 <MichaelC> cs: AAPI taking out pure MSAA column and working through implications of that
15:41:08 <MichaelC> after next week´s meeting, will have better idea of draft timeline
15:41:14 <MichaelC> js: need memorial service for MSAA
15:41:19 <MichaelC> cs: was groundbreaking at the time
15:41:24 <MichaelC> jf: +1
15:41:54 <MichaelC> jb: Text hasn´t met recently
15:42:00 <MichaelC> no pressing issues
15:42:30 <MichaelC> could be useful to meet with editors about parts 1 & 2 on David MacDonald´s review of the alternative text
15:42:45 <MichaelC> perhaps just he and I could request meeting with editors
15:43:45 <MichaelC> that should come from TF facilitator
15:44:52 <Judy> s/could be useful/would be useful/
15:45:12 <Judy> s/just he and I/just you and I/
15:45:15 <MichaelC> mc: Bug traige hasn´t met in weeks
15:45:21 <MichaelC> Hans reviewed bugs some weeks ago
15:45:25 <MichaelC> found one to forward to TF
15:45:36 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
15:45:36 <Zakim> agendum 4. "The Task Force at the TPAC" taken up [from janina]
15:45:46 <Judy> s/with editors/with editors per HTML Co-Chairs' suggestion/
15:45:56 <MichaelC> js: no formal meeting at TPAC
15:45:56 <MichaelC> but a lot of us will be there
15:46:00 <MichaelC> and many won´t
15:46:13 <MichaelC> could raise specific issues within HTML WG meeting
15:46:31 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
15:46:31 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, MichaelC
15:46:36 <MichaelC> zakim, close this item
15:46:36 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
15:46:37 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:46:37 <Zakim> 5. Other Business [from janina]
15:46:37 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
15:46:38 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Other Business" taken up [from janina]
15:47:00 <MichaelC> js: now that Plan2014 adopted, we could start work on extension specs
15:47:09 <MichaelC> jb: please read the co-chairs´ announcement
15:47:25 <MichaelC> suggest the TF look at extension specs it might want to formally take up
15:47:50 <MichaelC> there are some suggestions floating around, but not yet officially delegated
15:48:23 <MichaelC> cs: would like making HTML to AAPI mapping doc an extension spec
15:48:44 <MichaelC> the ARIA version is normative, think this should be too
15:48:53 <MichaelC> js: timeframe of 5.0?
15:48:57 <MichaelC> cs: not sure
15:49:18 <MichaelC> js: we should review this proposal
15:49:48 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
15:49:51 <Zakim> -Janina
15:49:52 <Zakim> -hober
15:49:52 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
15:49:54 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
15:49:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-html-a11y-minutes.html MichaelC
15:49:54 <Zakim> -Judy
15:49:55 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
15:49:56 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
15:49:56 <Zakim> Attendees were John_Foliot, hober, Janina, Judy, Michael_Cooper, Cooper, Cynthia_Shelly
15:50:03 <janina> janina has left #html-a11y
15:56:23 <janina> janina has joined #html-a11y
15:56:53 <janina> janina has changed the topic to: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference; Thursday 25 October at 15:00Z for 60 minutes
15:57:04 <janina> janina has left #html-a11y
15:57:42 <MichaelC> s/zakim. ??p20 is Janina//
15:57:52 <MichaelC> scribeOptions: -final
15:57:52 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
15:57:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-html-a11y-minutes.html MichaelC
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